Friesen Volume1

1 2 3 4 5
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE WESTERN DISTRICT OF OKLAHOMA
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Plaintiff,
6 7
vs. LARRY DOUGLAS FRIESEN,
8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Defendant.
) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) )
Case No. CR-08-41-L
TRANSCRIPT OF JURY TRIAL VOLUME I HAD ON SEPTEMBER 17, 2008 BEFORE THE HONORABLE TIM LEONARD, U.S. DISTRICT JUDGE, PRESIDING
A P P E A R A N C E S 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603 Mr. Edward Kumiega, U.S. Attorney's Office, 210 West Park Avenue, Suite 400, Oklahoma City, OK 73102, appearing for the United States of America Mr. Mack Martin and Ms. Kendall Sykes, Martin Law Office, 125 Park Avenue, Fifth Floor, Oklahoma City, OK 73102, appearing on behalf of the defendant
2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603 DELBERT KNOPP Direct Examination ........................121 Cross-Examination .........................157 Redirect Examination ......................187 Recross-Examination by ....................192 Redirect Examination ......................197 Recross-Examination by ....................198 ERIC BOOKER Direct Examination ........................ 79 Cross-Examination .........................116 Redirect Examination ...................... 73 Recross-Examination by .................... 75 Redirect Examination ...................... 77 WITNESS I N D E X PAGE 30 61 68 70
DENISE BROWN Direct Examination ........................ Cross-Examination ......................... Redirect Examination ...................... Recross-Examination .......................
3 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (The following was had on September 17, 2008:) THE COURT: Good morning. I think we're finally ready
to start, and on behalf of the parties and the Court I apologize for any inconvenience, and I know we got ahold of some of you yesterday before you came here, but I do apologize for any inconvenience. We've had -- as I mentioned, on
occasion there are certain emergency matters that come up that we have to deal with, and a late developing emergency matter which we were all unaware of Monday developed in this case on some evidentiary issues which took a little while to resolve. So with that, again, I apologize for any inconvenience, and we will begin the trial at this time. First of all I'm going to ask you now to stand and be sworn by the clerk. (The jurors were sworn by the clerk) THE COURT: Now that you've been sworn as the jury to
try this case, I would like to give you some preliminary instructions at this time. By your verdict you'll decide the disputed issues of fact. I will decide all the questions of law that arise during the trial and before you retire to deliberate together I'll give you instructions on the rules of law that you're to follow and apply to the facts as you determine them to be when you reach your decision. Because you've been called upon to decide the
facts of the case you should give careful attention to the B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
4 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 testimony and evidence presented for your consideration during the trial, but keep an open mind and should not form any or state any opinion about the case one way or the other until you've heard all of the evidence and I've instructed you on the law as well as having the benefit of the closing arguments of the attorneys. During the trial, as I mentioned Monday, you're not to discuss the case among yourselves or with any other persons, and not permit, you must not permit anyone else to attempt to discuss the case with you. I've counseled with the attorneys
to make sure that they tell all of their witnesses to have no contact with you either informally, innocently, or whatever, and, likewise, anybody you come to recognize as being part of this case, you should not engage in any conversations or anything else, just to avoid even the appearance of impropriety. You must also, as I mentioned, avoid reading any newspapers or listening to television or radio coverage or avoid doing any research anything on the internet not only this case but the subject matter of this case, because you've sworn to me and your fellow jurors and these parties that you would ways base your decision solely on the evidence that's introduced in this courtroom and the law as instruct you and no other outside factors. I may be called upon during this trial to make certain B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 rulings on the law. Normally those are what evidence can be You should not
introduced, not introduced, things like that.
infer from, or conclude from any decision that I make which way you should decide the case or whether -- you shouldn't form any opinion on the merits of the case based upon some ruling I've made. If I sustain an objection to a question that's asked of
a witness and it goes unanswered you should not speculate on what that answer might be and should not draw any inferences from the question itself. Many times I think jurors feel,
well, the judge is trying to keep us from hearing evidence that we ought to hear, but basically the evidence that I exclude is normally evidence -- for two reasons I exclude evidence. is it's not relevant to this case, or secondly, it's not reliable evidence. Now, you've heard of hearsay evidence. One
Well, there's several reasons the Court generally excludes hearsay evidence. One is it's kind of like, you know, if you
tell somebody something and they tell somebody else something, by the time it gets back it may not be in the same, may not be quite the same as it was when it was first told. And that's
hearsay when somebody else testifies as to what they heard from somebody else, so it's not quite as reliable. And secondly,
even though somebody gave an answer, you know, if you don't have the expression of the way they've given it or something or maybe they meant it one way and said it another way based upon the whole context of the conversation or something like that. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 So there's numerous reasons why we exclude hearsay evidence. The other reason, of course, is the parties don't have a chance to confront the witness who may have made the statement and cross-examine that witness to see, you know, what they meant by it or something. So there's numerous reasons. Now, there are
exceptions and some hearsay evidence we do admit under certain circumstances so, there are exemptions to that rule. So it's
not that in any evidentiary ruling I make I'm trying to keep evidence out that you should hear or should know about in making your decision. I would like to give you just a few preliminary instructions on the law that you're to follow at this time to help you better understand these proceeding as we go through them, and I'll give you a much more lengthy and detailed description of the law you're to follow, but some general preliminary instructions at this time will maybe help you understand the basic rules in a case like this that you're to follow. First of all, as I told you during the process of your selection, an indictment in a criminal case is merely the paper which states the charge or charges that are to be determined at the trial. else. It is not evidence against the defendant or anyone
The defendant in this case, Mr. Friesen, has entered a
plea of not guilty, and is presumed by the law to be innocent. The government has the burden of proving him guilty beyond a B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 reasonable doubt, and if it fails to do so you must acquit him. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt is proof of such a convincing character that you would be willing to rely and act upon it without hesitation in the most important of your affairs. Because the government has the burden of proof it will go forward and present its testimony and evidence first. After
the government finishes or rests what we call its case in chief, the defendant may call witnesses and present evidence on his behalf. However, you remember that the law does not
require defendant to prove his innocence or proof any evidence, and no inference whatever can be drawn from the election of a defendant not to testify in the event that he should so elect. As you listen to the testimony of the witnesses, you should remember that you'll be the sole judges of the credibility or believability he is those witnesses and the weight to your given his or her testimony. In deciding whether
you believe or disbelieve any witness you should consider their relationship to the government or to the defendant, their interest if anything in the outcome of the case, the manner of testifying, their opportunity to observe or acquire knowledge concerning the facts about which they've testified, their candor, fairness, and intelligence and the extent to which they've been supported or contradicted by other credible evidence. You may, in short, accept or reject the testimony of
any witness in whole or in part. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 As we begin the trial at this time by affording the attorneys on each side to make what are called opening statements which they will explain the issues in this case and a brief overview of the evidence that they expect to be introduced. This is not argument and they are not to argue the
positions, but simply to give you kind of a preview of the case. After the testimony and the evidence has all been presented, the attorneys will then be given another opportunity to make their arguments or summations of the evidence that has been presented, and any conclusions that they feel like you should infer or conclude from the evidence. But it's your
conclusions and your inferences that you want to draw, of course, that control. The statements that the attorneys make now as well as the arguments at the end of the case are not to be considered by you either as evidence, which comes only from the witness stand and the exhibits that are introduced, or as your instruction on the law, which will come only from me. Nevertheless, these
statements and arguments by counsel are very important and intended to help you understand the evidence as it comes in, the issues and disputes you'll be called upon to decide, as well as the positions taken by both sides. So I will ask that
you give the attorneys your close attention as I recognize them in turn for making their opening statement. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Mr. Martin, is the defendant ready proceed with trial? MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: proceed with trial? MR. KUMIEGA: your Honor. THE COURT: Mr. Kumiega, you -- one other thing I The United States of America is ready, Mr. Friesen is ready, your Honor. Mr. Kumiega, is the government ready to
should mention is -- Ms. Youngberg, you've given them all notebooks, haven't you? THE CLERK: THE COURT: Yes. I do allow note-taking during these
proceedings, and since this is going to be a trial that is going to last about six or seven days, that's something that helps considerably. want to make. But there's a few cautionary comments I
You can and are permitted to take notes, you'll On
be permit to use those notes in your jury deliberations.
the other hand, you're not required to take notes, and some of you may take notes and some may not during different things, but the one thing I would encourage you not to do is try to write down and to make a transcript of this proceeding because unless you have, unless you're very qualified in shorthand or have a little machine like Ms. Ring has, you're going to miss a whole lot. And plus, when you try to take down too much, you
may miss the demeanor of the witnesses, you may miss certain new testimony while you're taking other testimony down. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603 So I
10 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 would just say that take notes maybe on a few highlight things that you feel that might be -- you might want to recall about a witness or you might want to make a certain note of certain statements, but don't try to transcribe the whole trial. And also sometimes there will be disputes among yourselves, maybe your notes will even be conflicting as to what one witness said. Sometimes somebody may have taken a
note about some testimony and somebody else may have remembered it differently. It's your independent recollections, whether So don't just
you take notes or don't take notes, that matter.
ordinarily, or customarily automatically give in to someone who has taken a note of something if you remembered it differently. It's your independent recollection that's important. In other
words, somebody's notes are no more -- given no more weight than your own independent recollection of what occurred. But
collectively, perhaps, that's what a jury is for and that's why we have 12 of you to collectively remember. Also I would just warn you that a transcript of these proceedings will not be available to you in your jury deliberations because a transcript is not normally prepared until months later after a trial, and so you need to pay close attention to all of the evidence in the trial and, as I say, make whatever notes you think are important. Mr. Kumiega, does -- Mr. Martin, does either side wish the rule to be invoked? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
11 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. MARTIN: Yes, your Honor, subject to the -- what
we discussed in chambers. THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: Exclusion of experts? Yes, sir. The rule of sequestration will be invoked,
and that means that all persons who know themselves to be witnesses in this matter will be excluded from the courtroom except during their testimony. It also means that persons who
are witnesses should not discuss their testimony with other persons who may be witnesses in this matter, and I will instruct the attorneys to make sure that they instruct all witnesses not to discuss their testimony with other potential witnesses in this matter. The Court will make an exception for the designated experts of both the government and the expert witnesses of both the government and the defendant in this matter. MR. KUMIEGA: at counsel table. THE COURT: Yes. The Court will make an exception of Your Honor, may the case agent also take
the rule for Mr. Knopp, the case agent in this matter. Mr. Kumiega, you may make your opening statement at this time. MR. KUMIEGA: Thank you, your Honor. If I may have a
moment to get some charts out. THE COURT: Sure.
B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I would also comment that the podium there's a little box there that has certain little lights on it that come on, and the purpose of that is we place a time limit on the attorneys' opening statements and arguments. And that's only a --
provides a warning light as to them about when their time is about up, and also a red light when their time is up. You may proceed. MR. KUMIEGA: gentlemen of the jury: If it please place the Court, ladies and Again, my name is Edward Kumiega, I'm Mr.
the Assistant U.S. Attorney that's prosecuting this case.
Knopp is the case agent, and I want to introduce a new person that is at counsel table that you didn't see on Monday when we were picking a jury, that's Bonnie Webb, and she's our IT specialist and she's be, I guess, managing photographs as we present them to you, photographs that are going to be exhibits if the Court allows them for admission. As the Court said, this part of the trial is the opening statement, and that is exactly what it is. It's a statement,
it's not evidence, it's not the government's -- it's an outline of the government's case, it's like a road map. It's basically
a concept of how the government intends to during the course of these days bring witnesses and exhibits for your consideration during the course of these proceedings. And the evidence
you're going to hear is going to come from that witness stand over there in the corner, and then as people look at these B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
13 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 exhibits and the Court permits them, we'll flash them for your consideration so you can see the, see the case unfold. What I have here is a time line chart of the government's theory of the case. And this is just a demonstrative exhibit,
it's an aid for you to understand how this case is going to unfold. The theme of this case, what the government is going
to attempt to prove today, and like I said, what I say is not evidence, it's just what the government is going to attempt to prove, is that Mr. Friesen the defendant, at one time was a licensed gun dealer. And this chart here I think, this line is
during this period of time he was a licensed gun dealer, he's allowed to sell guns. And the evidence shows if you're selling
guns, the evidence will show that you have to account to the government of your gun sales, your gun possessions, you have to have some type of responsibility when you sell these firearms. And Mr. Friesen took that responsibility from May 1993 to November of 2003. During a period of time within that he also took the responsibility, the government will allege, of also having the ability to sell machine guns, silencers, and other type of I guess exotic type weaponry. But he had only had that for a This becomes important
three-year period of time or less.
because the only reason inspectors from the Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms could go to visit with him is because he had that license to sell guns. He has a license to sell guns.
14 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 And the government's theme of the case is even though Mr. Friesen had a license to sell guns, he deceived the inspectors by exhibiting a gun that he was not supposed to have, a machine gun, and that's why we're here today. And during the course of And
his conversations with these inspectors he lied about it. these are the five counts of the indictment.
Now, the Court gave you a summary, but in specific mode, in Count 1, the government alleges on February 19th, 2003, and that's here, Mr. Friesen said that a gun that he had, a Sten machine gun was a gun that was actually registered to him, and he showed a part number on that gun, a D number, D95843, was the serial number, when in truth and fact it was not. Count No. 2 talks about him, when the inspectors asked him where he kept his guns, because the inspectors want to have an accountability of where you keep your guns for sale or to possess, he said that all my guns in my business, in my law practice were on the second floor. Well, in truth and fact,
there was a gun vault hidden behind a library bookshelf that had guns. Count No. 3 talks about Mr. Friesen trying to sell the gun and telling the people in Washington, D.C., the people who sell -- who approve transfers, that the gun that he's trying to sell was not really registered to him. And Counts 4 and 5 talk about Mr. Friesen saying that the girls, the inspectors, missed the serial number because they B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
15 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 were in a hurry. And the last count is the possession of an That's the counts of the indictment.
unregistered machine gun.
Now, the law -- Mr. Friesen back in February 26th, 1996, legally possessed a machine gun. It's a Sten II -- Mark II And this is a type of
machine gun with serial number E683. gun, a Sten II machine gun also. that.
There will be testimony about
However, when the inspectors went out there on February
19, 2003, after hours of talking to Mr. Friesen, the inspectors were shown this type of machine gun that was registered to him, that he said was registered to him. And this is a Mark III
Sten machine gun, and the only number that the inspectors saw that day was the D59843 part number. As the chart shows Mr.
Friesen had E683 registered to him, but on November 19th, 2003, there was no serial number, there was only a parts number. Later on, 16 months later, on June of 2004, a search warrant is conducted. The Court authorizes the government for
a search warrant and the United States goes out there and seizes a firearm that looks just like this, and now has a part number. number. When the inspectors went out -- I mean the serial When the inspectors went out there in February of
2003, they never saw a serial number, they just saw a part number. When the investigators went in June of 2004, they
seize the machine gun that had that same part number back in 2003, and now they saw a serial number that they believe was added on there to show or to try to cover up the fact that this B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
16 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 machine gun is missing. So the purpose of this trial will be the government is going to show that Mr. Friesen did have a registered machine gun, the gun that's over here, but the gun that he showed the inspectors, that was not the gun that was registered to him. So as the trial unfolds just think about the two machine guns, the one that is lawfully registered to him and has never been found from the government's position, and the gun that was seized in June of 2004 that was found with a bogus serial number to match that one here. government's case. Now, government will bring witnesses, the two inspectors who did the inventory on September -- excuse me, on February 19th, 2003. And during their look at the machine gun, they That's basically the
went upstairs to Mr. Friesen's room, the room is well lighted, Mr. Friesen presents them, presents the girls this firearm. Each of the inspectors looked at the gun collectively and separately, and Mr. Friesen looked at it. And the testimony we
believe from the inspectors is that they asked Mr. Friesen where is the serial number on the gun, and he doesn't give them the E683 number, he says it's the part number, the D95483. The
testimony will be, and we believe that these inspectors have been doing this for many, many years, they work together as a team, they work sometimes separately, and they were very conscientious, and when they looked at the gun 16 months later B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
17 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 it was not in the same condition, the same condition that when they observed it in February. Now, we're going to call some forensic people who will say that the serial number, the E683 that's on this gun is a strange serial number, there is something wrong with it. And
we're going to call the manufacturer of the firearm who will say that the E683 on this gun, the Mark III is not my serial number; I never made this gun. the government's testimony. Also, during the course of the inspection, the inspectors on -- this happened, they went out there approximately six times, twice on the 19th and the inspection ended in March 4th of 2003 -- one of the inspectors asked Mr. Friesen, well, you know, you're a licensed gun dealer, you have to account for your firearms, there is some type of responsibility, where do you keep your guns for sale? second floor. And he said, everything is on the And that's going to be part of
Well, in truth and fact when they did the search
warrant on that day, as I said before, behind the library shelves there was a gun safe, and in that gun safe was 12 firearms. And the United States is going to call several
former employees of Mr. Friesen who will say that that gun safe was always full of guns. He kept that gun safe for the purpose
of his collection, or to sell his firearms. So basically there are going to be four broad categories of witnesses. They are going to be the inspectors who are
18 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 going to testify about the inspection, they are going to be the forensic people who are going to testify that there is only one coating on the firearm, one coat of paint on the firearm. We're also going to call the employees. And there are going to
be other people who will testify about Mr. Friesen's relationship with that Sten machine gun. Now, as I said, one of the key dates is June 2004. Agent
Knopp, the investigator of the case, went out there to serve Mr. Friesen the search warrant. Mr. Friesen is not under Mr. Friesen freely
arrest, they are having a conversation.
acknowledges that there was a gun vault behind the hidden bookcase, he said there was many gums in there, and in fact, the evidence will show there were 12 guns in there. And Mr.
Friesen looks at the search warrant, goes to the house, the residence, and the machine gun is in his residence, and he says to the, to Investigator Knopp, the ATF agent at that time, and said, well, what really happened here, the evidence will show, that the girls were in a hurry and they missed the serial number. That is basically the nuts and bolts of the government's case. So the time line starts here where Mr. Friesen lawfully
has a machine gun, that's never -- the government's position it's never been found during the course of the investigation, a Mark III Sten machine gun was in fact seized and it's not like the machine gun that he's supposed to have, and that's what we B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
19 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 believe the testimony of the manufacturer will come in. there are other firearms that were always in his gun safe behind the hidden bookshelf that were never disclosed during the course of the inspection. Now, the manufacturer of this gun, a guy named Charles Erb, it's not like Smith and Wesson, he's a boutique manufacturer of machine guns. many years. He's been doing it for many, And
He manufactured the gun in Pittsburg, And he's going to come here and
Pennsylvania, or around there.
look at this gun and say this is not my serial number that I affixed, and this is not the type of gun that it was designed to be. Now, Mr. Erb did not make a Sten II machine gun. a tube, and then as it goes through the chain of these wholesales they put attachments on it. But the tube, the tube The government -He makes
is an indication of what type of gun it is.
the evidence will show that the serial number of the firearm is like the DNA of a gun. the gun. The serial number is like the DNA of It's the only way you can And there will
This is the chromosomes.
tell if a gun is registered to somebody or not.
be much testimony about how the ATF registers these firearms through the analysis of the serial number. And we'll have
several witnesses who will testify to the documents regarding how these guns are registered. So, for instance, the evidence will show that Mr. Friesen B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
20 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 got this gun, as I said, in 1996, in February, but it was manufactured initially in Pittsburg, Pennsylvania, or thereabouts. It went to a wholesaler in Chicago, went to
somebody in Florida, to somebody in Alabama, and evidence will show that Mr. Friesen bought that firearm from a gun dealer, a wholesaler in Alabama. During the course of the search -- the United States will also talk about or introduce evidence that in Mr. Friesen's possession there was evidence, like a videotape and some documents to show that he was, the government is going to show, or attempt to show that Mr. Friesen had these documents to show how to build a machine gun, how a repair it, how to build a machine gun. That was one of the documents that was seized
during the course of the search. Also, it's another interesting item, when the inspectors went out there and they were armed with all his machine guns and silencers that he lawfully possessed, they were asking, the inspectors were asking Mr. Friesen, where is one of your silencers? out. And Mr. Friesen said, oh, I loaned that silencer
So four hours later that silencer showed up during the And the testimony we believe will
course of the inspection.
show that was -- that was not proper for Mr. Friesen to loan a silencer even to a police officer without the proper documentation from ATF. The United States will also bring in for your attention B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
21 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 what we call bookend guns. 683, that is marked here. No. 682 and No. 685. The serial number in question is We're going to bring into the Court
And the United States believes that
Charles Erb, the manufacturer, will say these are what my serial numbers look like, the 682 and the 685, and we'll show them as evidence for your consideration to see what a real serial number looks like. the government's case. We'll have the forensic people say this certainly is a machine gun. We'll have a chemist to say there's only one And then we'll have the tool And that's part of the totality of
layer of coat on there, of paint.
and die examiner that says the stamp, the 683 that was seized by the ATF in June 10th, 2004, was stamped multiple times. It's not a nice serial number but there are multiple stamps like someone was in a hurry to put a stamp on that firearm. Now, there will be other evidence as we go along in the case, but this is basically the crux of the case: That on
2/19/03 there was an inspection, they found a gun that didn't have a serial number. Later on they get a search warrant, they And then we
find the firearm that now has a serial number.
have the statements that are associated with Mr. Friesen explaining to the inspectors about how the serial number appeared on the firearm. After you listen to all this testimony the government believes you'll have enough evidence to find Mr. Friesen guilty B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
22 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 of the five counts of the offenses charged. THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Kumiega. Thank you. Mr. Martin, do
you wish to make your opening statement at this time? MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: If I might, your Honor. You may proceed. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury: As I
told you the other day, I'm Mack Martin.
I think I announced
that my associate Kendall Sykes, she wasn't here, but this is Kendall Sykes, and this is Doug Friesen. Our plea is not guilty to all five counts, and we're going to ask you at the return of all the evidence, at the end of all the evidence to return a verdict of not guilty. The facts in this case are going to be extremely contested, I will advise you. I will tell you that I
anticipate the evidence will show that Doug Friesen is a licensed attorney in the State of Oklahoma, that he's been very active in the Bar Association, law-related activities, that he practices divorce, personal injury, criminal law, civil law, administrative law, regulatory law, and he's a very busy man, successful lawyer. That not only does he do that but he's what So much so that in layman
you would call a firearm enthusiast.
terms, during a period of time, as Mr. Kumiega said, he was licensed to buy and sell firearms. He was also licensed or had
permission to own certain types of firearms if he had the appropriate tax stamps for them, for machine guns or silencer B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
23 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 or things like that, unique weapons. Evidence and testimony will also be that because of his specialized knowledge of firearms that he teaches law enforcement officers, that he's been to all kinds of training classes, that he teaches what they call at continuing legal law enforcement education training classes. Many of the people he
runs with are police officers, that he teaches classes on concealed carry, when you have the -- obtain a permit to carry a concealed weapon, he teaches those classes, that he's very versed in this area of the law. That is about Doug's background. That's who he is. Most
of his friends, most of the people that we will have called are either people that work in his law firm or have a law enforcement background. The case that we have here, the case that the government has, we anticipate the evidence will be that in 1996, Doug got a special license to purchase a Sten machine gun. He's not the
first person that owned this gun, he's the fifth person to own this gun. The evidence will be that nobody saw this gun,
nobody will remember this gun when it was first bought, nor will the second owner remember it, nor will the third owner remember it, nor will the fourth owner remember it. The first
time attention has ever been drawn to this gun is in this courtroom today, ladies and gentlemen. This gun is a firearm that is a machine gun, it's called a B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
24 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Sten. A Sten actually was something that was used back during They were dropped behind the lines so that
World War II.
people could use these guns to protect themselves during World War II from the Germans during the war. But this gun, this
part that we're talking about, the serial number on the gun, which is -- I can't tell by the picture, but it's somewhere in this area, is not, the illegal part that the government is alleging is not that, it's not the trigger, it's not the mechanism, it's a metal tube somewhere around that long (indicating). My wife is mad at me because I stole a role of
paper towels today, and I had to take -- you may have seen me, I took off the last few paper towels, because this is an example, and we anticipate the evidence will be that a little tube is what a Sten machine gun starts as. And that you take a
special piece of machinery and there are holes that are actually cut in certain areas of this tube, which ultimately make up this weapon here. about. The evidence will be that in 1996, a law was passed that said no longer can civilians manufacture machine guns except for sale to the United States. individuals after 1986. You can't sell them to But this is the piece we're talking
If they are manufactured by then you
can sell them today, but they have to be manufactured prior to 19986. The evidence will be that Mr. Erb, the government's
star witness, was one of these types of manufacturers, that he B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 made these tubes. And you're supposed to cut the holes out in
the tube, and once the tubes are completely cut out and in appropriate form, you take a hammer and a die and you beat a serial number into it and you cut out the holes, and then you can register that tube with the ATF. The evidence will be that in 1986, from probably March through May 19, because that's the cutoff day, May 19th you could no longer do this. until May 18. You could do it as many as you wanted
Mr. Erb in Fredericktown, Pennsylvania, is
cutting these as quick as he can and stamping them and registering them. And evidence will be that some of them he
puts the wrong serial numbers on, some of them have the same serial numbers, some of them aren't even cut right. But he's
whipping them out as quick as he can so he can get them done so he can have them registered with the ATF to sell, because after May 19th, he can't make anymore. metal tubes. This gun that the government says is unregistered is one of those tubes. Evidence will be that there's at least two There may be more. We anticipate He can't cut anymore of these
registrations for this gun.
that you will see that Mr. Erb will testify that, oh, when I made these tubes I put the serial number in a special location, I put my manufacturer's stamp in a special location, and so you can tell it's my gun because I put my stamp in a particular location on this tube. We will present to you photographs that
26 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 were taken by the ATF of approximately ten to 15 guns, and I think you'll draw the conclusion that the serial numbers are stamped in all different places on these tubes. have manufacturer's stamps, part of them don't. are even duplicated, the records will reflect. This gun -- because of Doug's particular licensing, he's subject to inspection by the ATF, which is a compliance inspection that occurred in February of 2003. February 19th. I believe it was Part of them Some of them
Two ATF inspectors showed up unannounced and Well, as you might
said we want to expect your firearms.
imagine, they show up at his law office, he's practicing law, and he goes through the course of trying to show them every firearm that he can. And towards the end of the day, they come And the agents will tell you this is
across a Sten firearm.
the only Sten firearm we saw, we didn't see any other Sten firearms. This is the only one. And Doug had one Sten firearm
registered to him.
They will tell you they didn't find a
serial number, so they wrote down a part number, and I believe the part number that they wrote down is somewhere in this area, somewhere in this very area (indicating). for the magazine. number. It's a part number
And they wrote that down as the serial He
Doug may have told them it was the serial number.
didn't know.
And because of that, unknown to Doug, in their
report they put down that this is a, quote, this firearm, the only one he's ever owned, it's an unregistered machine gun. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
27 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 The one that he bought after five people had -- he's the fifth owner of that firearm. And because they were so concerned that
he had an unregistered firearm on February 19th, 2003, they didn't seize it, they left it in his possession. They left it
in his possession for February, for March, for April, for May, they left it in his possession for 20-something months until June 10th, 2004 -- maybe it was only 18 months -- over a year later, a year and four months later, Mr. Knopp and ten or so ATF agents again show up at Mr. Friesen's, execute a search warrant and seize that firearm. They now see that there is a Not very legible, but And that is
serial number on the firearm, E683. there's one on there.
Hard to see in bad light.
the basis of why we are here.
Mr. Friesen -- Agent Knopp will
testify that's the only Sten Mr. Friesen had, the only gun, he only had one registered to him. And they now say and we're
here today because they say we've never seen it before but we now know that's an unregistered firearm because of the testimony of Mr. Erb, who will tell you that I was knocking these out as quick as I could. as quick as I could. I was knocking these tubes out
And yeah, I duplicated some of the serial
numbers on them, and yeah, I registered some of them twice, and yeah, I didn't cut all the holes I was supposed to send out so I don't know if the configuration of it looks like this gun or if the configuration of it would look like that other weapon Mr. Kumiega showed you. I don't know what the configuration of
28 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the firearm is because I never did that configuration. made this tube. And during the course of the inspection with the ATF inspectors in February of 2003, Doug Friesen talked to them and he said, number one, that's my Sten. firearm. That's my registered And because of I just
That's the only one I've every had.
that he's been charged with making a false statement to the ATF because they say that's an unregistered firearm. That D
number, that part number is not the registered number. The evidence will be that the serial number has always been on there, but they were unable to find it. As a matter of
fact, Mr. Erb, there will be serial numbers on his where -- on one of the firearms, this is an example, they actually had to remove the sight on the firearm, the exhibits will show you, to find the serial number. It was put under the sight. The
agents never found -- the number, the evidence will be, was always on there. Another false statement they asked, that they've accused him of are, where are your firearms stored? He told them where Yes, he had a But at the
every firearm they were looking for was stored.
safe in his basement, and yes, it was a gun safe.
time of the inspection, the evidence will be, there were no firearms in that safe. Everything he told them was true.
Agent Knopp will testify that Doug told him that the girls were in such a hurry they didn't find the serial number. They are
29 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603 saying that's a false statement. I don't know why they didn't
find the serial number, but that's what we believe, that the girls were in a hurry, it was the last gun they saw of the day, it was the only Sten that was registered to him, it was the only one he possessed. statement. I submit to you, ladies and gentlemen, that after you've heard all the evidence and seen all the inconsistencies and heard Mr. Erb get up here and testify that I was whacking these out thousands and thousands as quick as I could to make that May 18th deadline, because midnight on May 18th I couldn't make anymore of these and sell them, and this gun falls right within that category, you'll find that the government's case does not have any merit, that they can't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that that's not the registered firearm that Doug got as the fifth owner of it, and that any of the statements he made to the agents in this case to include Agent Knopp were false in any way, shape, or form. And we will ask you at the conclusion And so they said that's a false
of all of evidence to return a verdict of not guilty as to all counts as to Doug. THE COURT: first witness. MR. KUMIEGA: Yes, your Honor. The United States Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Martin, you may call your
would like to call Denise Brown.
Brown - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. KUMIEGA: Q. A. Q. A. Ma'am, can you introduce yourself to the jury, please? My name is Denise Brown. And Ms. Brown, how are you employed, please? DENISE BROWN, called as a witness, having been duly sworn, testifies as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION
30
I'm employed by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms
in the National Firearms Act branch in Martinsburg, West Virginia. Q. A. Q. And how long have you been employed with ATF? Over 25 years. And can you tell the jury some of your duties with ATF,
please? A. Yes. During the course normal of my business I search
the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record, which is a central registry of certain types of firearms that are required to be registered for the federal government. Q. All right. And you said there were certain type of
firearms.
Can you tell the jury what type of firearms the
registry particularly pertains to, please? A. Those firearms are machine guns, silencers,
short-barreled rifles, short-barreled shotguns, destructive devices, and certain other weapons like a pen gun. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Brown - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. You said short-barreled shotguns; is that correct? Yes, sir. That's a sawed-off shotgun; is that correct? Yes, it would be. And you said explosive devices also? Destructive devices, like a grenade. Destructive. Okay.
31
And you said you've been doing this
20 some-odd years; is that correct? A. Q. That is correct. And can you tell the jury how this registry is formed?
Like how do you get the numbers to put in the registry, please? A. We receive certain applications, an ATF Form 2, which
would be a notice of firearms manufacture or imported, or making form, an ATF Form 1. Those two type of forms initiate
the registrations from a manufacturer or maker that lists serial number, different types of firearm with a serial number. Q. Now, you talk about the serial number. What's the
importance of a serial number, please? A. That serial number will uniquely identify each firearm
that is made and that's assigned to that particular firearm. Q. So each serial number can't be duplicated with another
serial number in the registry; is that correct? A. It cannot be duplicated by the individual manufacturer.
Another manufacturer could use the number. Q. Could you tell the jury what type of training you've had B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Brown - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to compile these records? A.
32
Over the years it has been on-the-job training within the
office from superior employees. Q. A. Q. A. Q. And have you trained other individuals? Yes, I have. And approximately how many and how long ago? Two or three employees over the last five years. Now, you've brought certain exhibits for us today; is
that correct? A. Q. Yes, it is. And let me ask you this, a couple of foundational These documents were created in the ordinary course
questions:
of business; is that correct? A. Q. That is correct. Meaning that the government requires you to compile this
registry; is that right? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. That is correct. And again, what's the name of that registry, please? The National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record. And is there an abbreviation for it? The NFRTF. Okay. And they apply, like you said, just to certain
type of exotic guns, the machine guns, silencers, et cetera? A. Q. That's correct. Other firearms, just a pistol, handgun, rifles, are not B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Brown - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 included in the registry; is that right? A. Q. No, they are not. Okay.
33
You, since you've been doing this for 20 years or
more, you have knowledge in the way the records are kept; is that correct? A. Q. That is correct. Can you give the jury an example, for instance, if I
wanted to register a machine gun what process I go through and what process you go to actually put it in the NFTR. A. We would receive an ATF Form 4, which is an application
to transfer and register a firearm from another individual that wants to sell this to the new owner. The application comes in
and we check it for accuracy, such as to make sure the state would allow that type of firearm, to make sure the person receiving the firearm is not in anyway prohibited. We also do
a fingerprint check and a criminal history background check. If all of those things are in place and in order we will approve the application, affix a blue stamp to it, it's a $200 transfer tax stamp, and we send that back to the seller, and at that time they can give that firearm to the new owner. Q. You said that you need to pay a $200 tax stamp; is that
correct? A. That is a $200, yes, for the short-barreled shotgun and
machine guns. Q. So if a person who is not prohibited, meaning they don't B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Brown - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 have a criminal history, wants to get a machine gun, they can buy one you but they would have to pay a tax to the United States? A. Q. That is correct.
34
And that is registered then within the registry; is that
correct? A. Yes. The name and the firearm will now be in the
registry. Q. Let me ask you this: The documents that you get, are
they near in time when the event occurred, either when the firearm was manufactured, the machine gun, or when it was transferred? A. Sometimes they are, sometimes they come directly from the
manufacturer, sometimes they come through other sellers, such as a dealer. Q. And let me ask you this: Does your agency, the
government typically or exclusively rely on these documents? A. Q. Yes, we do. Now, it's my understanding you brought several of these
documents today for court purposes; is that correct? A. Q. Yes, I have. Can you look at first Government's Exhibit 1.1. I
believe that's the Special Occupational Tax Record. that? A. Yes, I do.
Do you see
Brown - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. What is the title of that? Certificate of -- that's the cover sheet there. Okay. And what does that document contain?
35
This document would contain information on the Special
Occupational Tax. Q. A. Q. A. Q. For what individual, please? May I take it out of the sleeve? Please. For Mr. Charles N. Erb. All right. And what is the Special Occupational Tax
Record? A.
What does that purport to be, please?
This is also kept by the office I work in, the National This is the Special Occupational Tax,
Firearms Act branch.
this is payment of the tax along with the federal firearms license of someone who wants to engage in business as a manufacturer, a dealer of importer of the firearms that I mentioned earlier. Q. So that's a tax to show you have the -- you have the
ability to, with the government's I guess blessing to manufacture a firearm; is that correct? A. Yes. It shows that Mr. Erb paid the Special Occupational
Tax as a manufacturer. Q. All right. And did he have, did he have the ability to
manufacture firearms back in 1986 from that record? A. Yes, he did. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Brown - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Can you tell the jury the time parameters, what that
36
Exhibit 1.1 shows regarding Mr. Erb's ability to manufacture these type of machine guns, please? A. Since 1988, ATF, that's Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms, we Prior
collected the tax and maintained the registry on that.
to that IRS was collecting the tax, and each individual that so paid the tax would submit to us a self-certification that they did pay the tax, and we did have such a certification from Mr. Erb. Q. All right. And what was the years that he had the
ability to manufacture those firearms, please. A. Q. From 1980 to the present. Okay. Government's Exhibit 1.2. Is that again a Special
Occupational Tax record? A. Q. Yes, it is. And whose name appears on that certified copy on that
Special Occupational Tax record, please? A. Q. Larry Douglas Friesen. And what dates were Mr. Friesen permitted by the United
States to either sell or transfer machine guns, silencers, the weapons that you enumerated before, please? A. Between July 1st, 1994, through June 30th, 1997 he was
qualified as a dealer in NFA firearms. Q. Mr. Brown, Can you see that from here? Is that possible
you can see that? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Brown - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 exhibit? THE COURT: Yes. A. Q. 1997? A. Q. Yes, sir. All right. And Mr. Friesen paid the tax during that Yes. That line? And you said July 1st, 1994 to June 30th,
37
period of time; is that correct? A. Q. Yes, he did. Okay. Now, Government's Exhibit 1.3. What is that
purported to be, please. A. This is a list of firearms that remain registered. MR. MARTIN: Your Honor, may I approach on this
Ladies and gentlemen of jury, I don't recall mentioning, but hopefully bench conferences will be few and far between, but when we do have a bench conference to discuss an evidentiary issue, if you want to you may stand, get a drink of water, visit quietly among yourselves. Do not leave the jury
box or the immediate vicinity of your seat, but use that as what I would call just a little a mini break to stand and stretch. (The following was had at the bench, out of the hearing of the jury:) THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: Yes. Judge, Exhibit 1.3, which is a list of
Brown - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2008? MR. KUMIEGA: But she had all these -- when she went guns that apparently -- the inspectors say are missing from Doug's inventory when they did their inventory, and this is what that record says. The only one that is of any relevance
38
to this case whatsoever is the -- I'm trying -- is the submachine gun, No. 10. The rest have no relevance at all to
this case, and I object to the introduction of a document that was created by the government relating to -- by the ATF, as far as I know it was prepared for purposes of prosecution, and they don't have any relevance except for this machine gun that somebody said is missing. I just don't think for the purpose
of this case I don't think it's relevant. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, these are the guns --
Valerie Rowden will testify she had a copy of this type of document when she went out to do the inspection. She had to
inventory everything in his inventory and his records because he had a firearms license to sell firearms and that she was armed with these documents. THE COURT: Armed with this document? A copy of this, not this exact document,
MR. KUMIEGA:
a copy of this document to show -THE COURT: Was the document is created September 5,
out there they gave her a copy of all -THE COURT: So she can testify to all that?
Brown - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kumiega. MR. KUMIEGA: your Honor. THE COURT: It's not a business record. It's just a It's a certified copy of the document, is not. -THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: It's the same thing, Judge. Yes.
39 This
was prepared for reasons of court, but she had a certified copy of all of these firearms when she went out there to inventory. They are relevant to show his records were in disarray, and we couldn't find that number. THE COURT: She can testify to that, but this looks
like it was created for the trial. MR. KUMIEGA: It was, but the information is the same It's a business record. Of course
she got -- it's a record.
it was created for the trial. THE COURT: business? MR. KUMIEGA: Yes, it is. Every firearm that he has This isn't kept in the ordinary course of
These documents may be, but this document
That's not kept in the ordinary course of business. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, the number --
It's a summary. Of everything that he has, because
exotic -THE COURT: This is not a business record, Mr.
Brown - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 summary that was created for the trial. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: But it mirrors the business record.
40
It's not a business record. I think it is, your Honor.
MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: course of business. MR. KUMIEGA:
Well, it's not created in the ordinary
The information is created in the They have to have on his registry
ordinary course of business. what he has in his inventory. THE COURT:
I don't disagree with any of that.
This
document is not created in the ordinary course of business. It's not a business record. It's something that was created
from other documents as a summary for the purpose of the trial. It's not a business record. It's not something that they
normally keep some running tally on the individual documents. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: Well, they do, but yes.
The summary? It's a summary, but it's the same
information that Ms. Rowden had when she went out. THE COURT: She can testify to that information. Can she testify to this document or
MR. KUMIEGA: another document? THE COURT:
The Court isn't going to admit this, this I'll sustain the objection to that
is not a business record. document.
Brown - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. (The following was had in open court, within the hearing of the jury:) MR. KUMIEGA:
41
Your Honor, before I go any further the
United States would move for admission of Government's Exhibit 1.1 and 1.2 into evidence. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: No objection. Will be admitted. Ma'am, this is a blowup, Ms. Brown, of
(By Mr. Kumiega)
what you identified as Government's 1.1, the sales records or the manufacturer records of Mr. Erb; is that correct? A. That is the payment of the Special Occupational Tax
payment, yes. Q. A. Q. And what is that, please? That was the second one with Mr. Friesen's name on it. Okay. Let's look at Government's Exhibit 1.4, please.
What is Government's Exhibit 1.4, please? A. This is a history of a particular firearm manufactured by
Charles Erb, serial number E683. Q. Let me ask you this: Was that document made in the
ordinary course of business? A. Q. A. Yes, it was. Can you tell the Court why, please? This one was asked by the agent for me to make, to
prepare the information and put it under seal. Q. All right. And the information that you had, that is in
Brown - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. ordinary course of business; is that correct? A. Q. Yes, it is.
42
And is that a compilation of all the documents contained
in that certificate? A. Yes, for everything from E682 showing from the
manufacturer to the current owner. Q. All right. Can you look at that document and tell the
jury, if you can give the jury the pedigree of 682, please, that birthing document, please? A. The Form 2 I received from Charles Erb -MR. MARTIN: Your Honor, I don't think she be allowed
to do that unless the document is admitted into evidence. THE COURT: Will be sustained. You said this document is prepared in
(By Mr. Kumiega)
the ordinary course of business; is that correct? A. Q. Yes, it is. Are each document that you have within the registry and
then they are pulled together to be submitted by you in that sealed certificate; is that correct? A. Q. That is correct. And what is the certificate, what does it symbolize or
suggest, please, when you put a sealed certificate on it? A. That we were able to search everything relative to that
serial number and put it in order from the manufacturer all through the subsequent transferors and then seal it. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Brown - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. MARTIN: Q. Ms. Brown, looking at what's been marked for Q. Do you do that routinely for cases that you present for
43
the purposes of courtroom testimony? A. I have. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, at this time the United
States would move for introduction of 1.4 into evidence. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: May I voir dire, your Honor? Uh-huh. VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
identification purposes as Exhibit 1.4, I believe you testified that's a complete history of the weapon? A. Q. A. Q. A. The weapon ownership. Okay. Is the first transfer in there? I do have one.
I do have one, yes. From?
Mr. Erb to J.R. Perry. MR. MARTIN: May I approach, your Honor. My copy
doesn't appear to have one. THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: Yes. I apologize, your Honor. I apologize. I don't have
that page, your Honor. questions. THE COURT: MR. MARTIN:
I don't have any further
Excuse me? I didn't have that page in my records,
Brown - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. KUMIEGA: Q. your Honor. THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: Okay. Continue.
44
With that, your Honor, we ask that
document 1.4 be admitted into evidence. MR. MARTIN: have any objection. THE COURT: 1.4 will be admitted. Other than relevance, your Honor, I don't
CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION
Ma'am, can you explain the transfer and who it went to and
how it wound up with the last individual, please? A. We would receive applications after the transfer to Mr.
Perry, he submitted an ATF Form 3, which is the transfer between Special Occupational Taxpayers, those engaged in business to transfer it on to another dealer. Q. And then from there -- if you can give the Court and jury
how the gun wound up with the last owner, please? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. The names? Yes. After Mr. Perry it went to Grant Kemmerer. Where is he from, please? He's from Miami, Florida. And from there where did it go next? Went to another Special Occupational Taxpayer Mr. John
Guy Walker and Trussville, Alabama. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Brown - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. And then after Alabama where did it go next? Onto an individual, Mr. Dukes in Lewisburg, Kentucky.
45
Then from Mr. Dukes, it went to dealer, Elite Firearms, in Paducha, Kentucky. Then from Elite Firearms it went to a From there it
dealer, Vanguard Firearms in Pound, Wisconsin.
went to another dealer, Mr. Todd in Springfield, Pennsylvania. From there it went to another dealer, CJK Firearms, Incorporated, in Mt. Olive. North Carolina. From there it
went to another dealer, Ronald Keith Common, Dennison, Ohio. From there it went to an individual, Mr. Thomas Winter, Stonecreek, Ohio. Q. And that is the last and current owner.
Ms Brown, the last transaction that winds up with Winter,
who did he get that from? A. Q. A. Q. Mr. Ronald Common in Dennison, Ohio. What's the dates of that transfer, please? November 29th, 2006. So again, that certificate basically certifies what you
said is from your records; is that correct? A. Q. That is correct. Would you look at Government's Exhibit 1.5, please. And
what does that document purport to be, please? A. This particular certification certifies that E683 made by
Charles Erb is currently registered to Larry Douglas Friesen. Q. All right. And again, this was prepared in the normal
course of business; is that correct? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Brown - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. Yes, it was. And how many transfers in that document go from the
46
manufacturer to Mr. Friesen, please? A. Four. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, at this time the United
States would move for introduction of Government's Exhibit 1.5 into evidence. MR. MARTIN: Your Honor, could you reserve ruling? It
I'll let her testify about it until cross-examination.
might speed things up, but I don't object to them going into it. THE COURT: Okay. I'll reserve ruling.
(By Mr. Kumiega)
Ma'am, the first person that, the
person that manufactured the gun, E683, is who, please? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Charles Erb. And the date of the manufacture, please? May 14th, 1986. And what's the model that was made, please? Sten Mark II. All right. Mr. Erb then sold that firearm or it was
transferred to another individual; is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. That is correct. And who did he transfer it to, please? R.J. Perry & Associated, Incorporated. And the date, please? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Brown - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. April 15th, 1987. Okay.
47
So it starts with Erb then goes to Perry; is that
correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. That is correct. And again, it's the same E683 number? Yes, it is. And it's a Sten Mark II? Yes, it is. Then it goes to someone in Florida; is that correct? That is correct. Who does it go to into Florida, please? Grants L. Kemmerer. And the date for the jury, please? October 8, 1992. And does Mr. Kemmerer transfer that firearm to somebody
in Trussville, Alabama? A. Q. Yes, he did. Who, the dates, and again, the serial number and the
model, please. A. Q. A. Q. John Guy Walker, approved 11/25/1992. And the serial number and the model, please? The serial number E683, model Sten Mark II. All right. And Who does the people from Alabama sell
their gun to, please? A. Larry Douglas Friesen, E683, Sten Mark II. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Brown - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 before. Q. A. Q. And the date, please? Approved February 22nd, 1996. This is basically the birthing document, or excuse me,
48
this is the transfer document of how Mr. Friesen got the firearm; is that correct? A. Q. A. That's the transfer history, yes. What is Government's Exhibit 12.6, please? This is the transfer history of E685 manufactured by
Charles Erb. Q. Basically, you did the same with the other document you
just testified to; is that correct? A. Yes, I did. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, the United States would move
for introduction of Government's Exhibit 1.5 into evidence. THE COURT: I think Mr. Martin wants to cross-examine
I'm going to reserve ruling on it. MR. MARTIN: MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: Same with 1.6, Ed? Same with 1.6.
Any objection to 1.6? Other than relevance, your Honor. Okay. Objection will be overruled. It
will be admitted. Q. (By Mr. Kumiega) Now, can you, again, tell the jury the
pedigree of that gun, who made it, and who did it wind up with, please? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Brown - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. We have an ATF Form 2 dated 5/14/86 from Charles Erb. And the date that gun was manufactured, please? 5/14/86. And the serial number, please? E685. Okay. And who does Mr. Erb sell that gun to?
49
That firearm was sold to R.J. Perry & Associates, E685,
April 15th, 1987. Q. Okay. And then who does Mr. Perry sell the gun to,
please? A. Q. gun? A. Q. E685, Sten Mark II. And does Mr. Kemmerer sell the gun subsequently to To Grant L. Kemmerer, Miami, Florida, October 8th, 1992. And again, is that -- the serial number and the type of
someone else? A. To John Guy Walker, Trussville, Alabama, for E685 Sten
Mark II, approved November 25th, 1992. Q. Okay. And then after that can you tell the jury the
history of the gun after it leaves Trussville, Alabama, please? A. We have a transfer to Mr. Murray Beckford, Cascade,
Wisconsin for E685 Sten Mark II, approved December 21st, 1992. Q. A. Q. All right. Is that the last person who has that firearm?
That is the current owner. What's Government's Exhibit 1.7, please? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Brown - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A.
50
This is a certification that a particular firearm is not
registered to Larry Douglas Friesen. Q. A. Excuse me. I didn't hear that.
This is a negative certification reflecting that -MR. MARTIN: Your HOnor, as to exhibit -- your Honor, It's the same as that earlier
I object 1.7, your Honor.
objection I made at the bench relating to the business record. THE COURT: Okay. Objection will be sustained. She
can testify as to what she found from her search of the records, but this exhibit is not a -- the Court is going to sustain the objection. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: Your Honor, may I approach, your Honor? No. It's not a record made in the
ordinary course of business, Mr. Kumiega, but she can testify as to what she found from her search of the records. MR. KUMIEGA: (By Mr. Kumiega) All right. Ma'am, you've looked at that document;
is that correct? A. Q. That is correct. And you did a search on a specific number; is that
correct? A. Q. A. Q. That is correct. What number did you search, please? D as in David 95843. And you searched it under what categories, if you tell B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Brown - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the jury, please? A. I searched that serial number with and without the
51
prefix, and I researched it for the type of machine gun, for any type of firearm that would fall under the ones that require registration to see if it was in the registry. Q. All right. When you said you searched it for, you said
different prefixes; is that correct? A. I would search it without the prefix with a percent sign
in place of that. Q. A. What does that mean, please? Just to determine if any number like that would be
registered for that type of firearm, for the type of firearm that we're looking at. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Okay. Yes. And you ran it under 95843; is that correct? That is correct. Did you run any other combination of numbers? With the percent sign just in the front, replace the D to So you ran it under the D95843; is that correct?
see if any other combinations would come up. Q. All right. You also examined Mr. Friesen's records; is
that correct? A. Q. Yes, I did. Did you see any firearm registered under that number in
Mr. Friesen's name? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Brown - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Honor. THE COURT: Doesn't fall under business records, but A. Q. No, I did not. All right.
52
Can you tell me what Government's Exhibit 1.8
is, please? A. This is certification certifying that E705 manufactured
by Charles Erb is still registered to Charles Erb. Q. A. And the date of that manufacture, please? 5/14/1986. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, United States would move for
introduction of Government's Exhibit 1.8 into evidence. MR. MARTIN: Your Honor, it's not a business record I object.
like the others, it's just another certification. MR. KUMIEGA:
It -- it is a business record, your
she can testify as to what it says. MR. KUMIEGA: (By Mr. Kumiega) Okay. How did you prepare that number,
please? A. I was asked to search this particular serial number and I
looked in the database to see if the firearm was registered to any person, and it is registered to Charles Erb. Q. A. Q. A. What type of firearm is it, please? It's a machine gun. And does it have a model on it? Sten Mark II. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Brown - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Q. A. Q. A. Q. You said date it was born is May of 1986? Yes. What specific date, if you remember, please? May 14th. Okay. What is Government's Exhibit 1.9, please? Your Honor, I'm going to have the same
53
MR. MARTIN:
objection as to that one. THE COURT: You can go ahead and identify it. Yes, your Honor. What is Government's Exhibit E --
MR. KUMIEGA: (By Mr. Kumiega)
excuse me. A.
What are you looking at, ma'am?
This is another certification on E683 stating that the
machine gun manufactured by Charles N. Erb that is currently registered to Larry Douglas Friesen, we had a pending application to transfer that firearm, but the application was not approved. Q. What date did that application go to your office, please,
or your agency? A. Q. A. Q. I believe it was 2004. And what date was it denied by your agency, please? I believe in 2006. Okay. I'm not sure of the date.
And you said -- and who was trying to transfer the Who was trying to do that? Now we're getting
firearm, the Sten machine gun? MR. MARTIN:
Your Honor, I object.
way outside the scope of what this trial is about. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Brown - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Q. THE COURT: Objection will be overruled. Who was he trying to transfer the gun
54
(By Mr. Kumiega)
to, please? A. Q. Mr. James Howard Bugg. All right. So my understanding of the records is Mr.
Friesen filed an application to sell the gun? A. Q. A. Q. That is correct. And it was denied; is that correct? That is correct. Now, to buy the gun, can you tell the jury how that If I wanted to buy a machine gun, who makes the
works, please?
payments, who does the applications, please? A. The current owner of the firearm would submit an
application to transfer it on to a new owner, they would submit the form along with the $200 transfer tax. Q. A. Q. The current owner pays the transfer tax? That is correct. Okay. In your government's exhibit, ma'am -Your Honor, may I have a moment with my
MR. KUMIEGA: paralegal? THE COURT: (Brief pause) (By Mr. Kumiega)
Yes.
Ma'am, if you can look at Government's What is that,
Exhibit 1.5; you testified to that before. again, please?
Brown - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Erb. Q. And can you look at page 3 of that document, please? This is certification for E683 manufactured by Charles
55
What is that? A. That is the first transfer from Charles Erb to R.J. Perry
& Associates. Q. A. Q. A. Is there a Form 2 in that document? Yes, there is. What is Form 2, please? Form 2 would be the application that we received a show
the initial registration and manufacture of the firearm. Q. A. Okay. Is there other guns contained in that series?
Yes, there are. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, the United States would move
for introduction of 1.5; specifically I would like to display form No. 2 of that document. Q. (By Mr. Kumiega) Was that made in the active course of
business? A. Q. A. Yes, it was. Who submits that document to you, please? The manufacturer, in this case Mr. Charles Erb. MR. MARTIN: Your Honor, I don't object to the
displaying of the form, but I still have my standing objection that I would like you to rule on after cross. object to displaying the Form 2. But I don't
Let me make sure I'm
Brown - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. understanding. What page are you talking about? 1926? Is that the page, Mr. Kumiega?
56
THE COURT: MR. MARTIN:
1926 or 25? 25. 25. I don't have a problem with that.
MR. KUMIEGA: MR. MARTIN: THE COURT:
Without objection, you can display it even
though it's not admitted yet, Mr. Kumiega. MR. KUMIEGA: display that. Q. A. (By Mr. Kumiega) Ms. Brown, what is this? It Thank you, your Honor. If you can
This is the ATF Form 2 that was submitted by Mr. Erb.
has numerous firearms on it, a total of 25 with consecutive serial numbers starting with E as in echo, 676 through and E as in echo 700. Q. A. And what does Form 2 purport to be, please? It is a notice of firearms manufactured. Each
manufacturer that so makes NFA firearms will notify us that they've made these firearms in the course of their business. MR. KUMIEGA: May I approach the witness with a laser
pointer so she can point it out? THE COURT: Yes. Now, you testified that Mr. Erb, I
(By Mr. Kumiega)
guess, makes these firearms; is that correct? A. Q. That is correct. And this is the E series goes 676 sequentially to 690; is B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Brown - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that correct? A. Q. Yes. Or to 700; is that correct?
57
And this shows the date these guns were born or made; is
that right? A. That's right. Within 24 hours after manufacture, the
manufacturer will submit the Form 2 to us. Q. And once you get that form, what do you do with it,
please? A. We look at the information and have someone enter it into
the database. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. And 683 is here; is that correct? That is correct. And you testified about 682; is that right? Yes, I did. You also testified about E685; is that correct? Yes, I did. Once you get that you put that in the document; is that
correct? A. Q. Into a database, yes, we do. Does anybody who buys any of these guns, does that stay
with their certificates? A. The Form 2 will always be there as the originating
document, then each subsequent transfer form is also entered, input into the database after we approve it. Q. And can you tell the jury what these are, please, across B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Brown - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the top? A. The first one is the date of manufacture, that's
58
information given by the manufacturer, the type of firearm, the caliber, the model, the barrel length, the overall length, and then the serial number. Q. All right. So everything is labeled as a machine gun; is
that correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes, they are. And you have the caliber? Yes. And what model is being made that day? Sten Mark II. What are these two here? What do they purport to be,
please? A. Q. A. The barrel length of the firearm and the overall length. What is the barrel length, please? Eight inches for the barrel length, and 31 for the
overall. Q. Okay. Who signs this document, and tell us about these
signatures here and what they purport to be? A. There's a signature from Mr. Charles Erb, the
manufacturer, and the date. Q. A. Q. And that's the date right there (indicating)? Yes, it is. What does Class 2 mean, please? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Brown - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q.
59
Class 2 indicates that he's a manufacturer of firearms. Okay. And are there other, above that in that category,
there are other specific numbers associated with Mr. Erb; is that right? A. Q. A. Yes. How does that help your agency, please? This also, his federal firearms license, we make sure
that he's also licensed as well as paid the Special Occupational Tax, and the type of business. Q. Okay. You said that each of these documents that you
talked about contain that item; is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. Yes, they do. So 682 has the same thing, and 685? Yes, they do. Okay. So that's basically the origin document, like a
baptismal certificate I would imagine; is that correct? A. That is the origin of the -MR. KUMIEGA: my case agent. THE COURT: (Brief pause) (By Mr. Kumiega) You talked about a firearm not being Yes. Your Honor, if I may have a moment with
transferred from Mr. Friesen to Dr. Bugg, is that correct or Mr. Bugg? A. That's correct. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Brown - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q.
60
Can you tell the Court or the jury what reasons ATF would
deny applications, please? MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: Your Honor, to which we'll object. If she has knowledge of that. I think it was a general question, what
reasons they might deny it. MR. KUMIEGA: Well, if she has the authority, your
Honor, as custodian of records she can tell the jury why certain applications will be denied, what reasons would be for deniability. THE COURT: The objection will be overruled. We will deny an application if the
THE WITNESS:
recipient were not qualified to receive it, they were prohibited, if the state law did not allow it, if we didn't have all pertinent documentation such as the money, the check, the fingerprint cards, those types of reasons. Q. (By Mr. Kumiega) And would the inaccuracy of the serial
number be another reason for deny it? A. Yes, we check that first to make sure that the current
registrant has the firearm properly registered, and then we move forward on the transfer. Q. Okay. Now, from your working area, you only can register
a gun that has a proper serial number; is that correct? A. That is correct. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, I have nothing further from
Brown - Direct/Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. MARTIN: Q. Ms. Brown, I believe you testified you've been with the this witness. THE COURT: You may cross-examine. CROSS-EXAMINATION
61
ATF approximately 20 years in this position? A. Q. Yes, sir. And it's -- is this your primary duty, going to court
certifying records? A. Q. It's my primary duty to search the database, yes, sir. Okay. Then occasionally you will come to court and
testify as you have today? A. Q. Yes, sir. Okay. And I believe you testified that you've searched
the database and you've -- and that every manufacturer, for example, has to have a unique serial number on every firearm that they register; is that correct? A. Q. Yes, sir. So I'll just say, for example, Smith and Wesson, they
could have a number similar to a, that could be the same as another manufacturer, but for that particular manufacturer, they can only have certain numbers, they have to have distinct numbers as to every firearm; is that right? A. Q. Yes, sir. For example, in this case, the number in this case is B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Brown - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 E683.
62
Smith and Wesson might have an E683 but it's a Smith and
Wesson; is that right? A. Q. That is correct. And a Colt might an E683, but it would be Colt, and
that's okay, right? A. Q. Yes, they could. But for example, Mr. Erb could not have two or three or
four E683s or E685s or any number, that would be wrong, wouldn't it? A. Q. That would be wrong. Okay. Yes, sir.
Now, what you rely on, as I understand, are the
documents that have been provided to you from transferring firearms; is that correct? A. Q. A. Yes. And from the original manufacturer, yes, sir. I'm sorry.
I couldn't hear you.
From the original manufacturer first and then from the
subsequent transfers. Q. Okay. And I believe you testified that within, I think
it was within 24 hours that, of manufacture, the manufacturer has to file the Form 2; is that right? A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes, they should. Yes.
So if I make 25 Sten tubes -- you know what a tube is? Not technically. I'm sorry. No.
You do or don't?
I'm not sure of the question. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Brown - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. Q. Okay. Do you know what is Sten machine gun is?
63
A completed machine gun, yes. Do you know what a tube is? Not technically. Okay. Okay. No.
The registrations that you have here, are
those completed machine guns, are those completed tubes, or do you know the distinction I'm trying to make? A. The manufacturer should submit the ATF Form 2 for
completed machine guns. Q. 1.6. Okay. And so in front of you are Exhibits 1.4, 1.5, and
Those are your forms that you've reviewed here that were
supposedly created by, manufactured by Mr. Erb; is that right? A. Q. That's correct. And if you need to look at the records go ahead, but
correct me if I'm wrong, isn't it true that as to each of those serial numbers, E682, E683, and E685, Mr. Erb transferred those to Mr. Perry, Mr. Perry transferred those to Mr. Kemmerer, and then Mr. Kemmerer transferred those to John Guy Walker in each of those three firearms. A. yes. Q. A. Q. As to each of those firearms? Yes, sir. And according to the records -MR. MARTIN: Would you put up -- I believe it's the They were bulk transfers, basically. They continued those transfers,
They did do that, yes.
Brown - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 one Ed just had. Q. 1925, I believe. And that on May 14th, and I'm assuming
64
(By Mr. Martin)
that date is down here (indicating), right? A. Q. Yes, sir. On May 14th, that machine gun, your testimony is was
supposed to be 31 inches long? A. Q. A. Q. Barrel length, yes. Okay. Overall length. I'm sorry.
Overall length of the weapon, and I'm assuming, I may be
wrong, but the overall length of the weapon should have been 31 inches; is that right? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. That's what your records reflect? Yes. Okay. And the -- and that would apply as in this case as
to 682, 683, and 685 that we've heard your testimony about, right? A. Q. That is correct. Okay. Now, we see Mr. Erb's signature at the bottom. Do
you see that? A. Q. Yes. And this document, this 1925 we've referred to it, is in
each of the three exhibits, 1.4, 1.5 and 1.6; is that right? A. Yes, it is. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Brown - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Mr. Kumiega referred it to it as I guess the birth
65
certificate, right? A. Q. That's correct. So that document would be in every one of your files from
E676 to E700, correct? A. Q. There would be a Form 2 there. Yes, sir.
And over here next to the date there's some type of an Do you see that?
initial. A. Q.
I do. Do you know what that is or who that is or why it's
initialed there? A. Q. I do not recognize that initial. Okay. And I'm assuming you got -- I'm assuming you got
that document off of a microfiche? A. Q. That's correct. Microfilm, yes, sir.
And do the microfiche put a number or a, some unique mark
on the document that would indicate that it's been microfiched like at the top or bottom or anything? A. We used to have the numbers. I don't believe that it
currently makes the numbers. Q. Okay.
We used to have the numbers.
I'm going to hand you what I've marked for
identification purposes as Defendant's Exhibit No. 100, and ask you, ma'am, if you recognize that document. A. Q. This is an ATF Form 2. And is it a form that is normally kept in the normal B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Brown - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. course of business with the ATF? A. Yes, it is. MR. MARTIN:
66
Your Honor, I would move for introduction
of Defendant's Exhibit No. 100. THE COURT: Do you have a copy of it, Mr. Kumiega? I do, your Honor.
MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT:
Any objection? No, your Honor.
Will be admitted. I'm going to put on the monitor for you Do you see that?
(By Mr. Martin)
to see here Defendant's Exhibit No. 100. A. Q. Yes, sir.
And this you've referred to as a Form 2.
We call it a
Form 2 mainly because right here at the bottom it says ATF Form 2, right? A. Q. Yes, sir. And if we zoom out, we see this is one of those birth
certificates Mr. Kumiega talked about, right? A. Q. Correct. And it appears that it's got some microfiche marks where
it was microfiched ed in; is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And it's dated here at the bottom. Yes, sir. And it's got the same initial on it that we didn't B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603 Do you see that?
Brown - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. understand earlier, doesn't it? A. Q. That's correct. And it's signed by Charles Erb and it says that I
67
manufactured some guns on April 20th, 1986. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes, I do. And we see on there E682, don't we? Yes. And we see on there E686, don't we? Yes. And we see on there E685, don't we? Yes.
Do you see that?
And we see that those guns were registered with the ATF
on April 20th, almost a month before May 14th, 1986, don't we? A. Q. Yes, sir. And those are the same serial numbers that you told us
that we can't have duplications of because it would cause problems with the ATF's records; is that correct? A. Yes, sir. Yes. May I have a moment, your Honor? Yes.
MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: (Brief pause) (By Mr. Martin)
And have you brought, I think they've
been referred to as the blue ribbon certificates for supporting Defendant's Exhibit No. 100, ma'am? A. For this particular one? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Brown - Cross/Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. BY MR. KUMIEGA: Q. Ma'am, let me ask you this: Q. A. Yes, ma'am. I have not. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: No further questions, your Honor. Mr. Kumiega. REDIRECT EXAMINATION
68
You have Defense Exhibit 100
that Mr. Martin just had you testify about; is that correct? A. Q. Yes, sir. And then you have the other exhibit that's part of the
certified record; is that correct? A. Q. Yes, sir. That you testified about. Which one is part of the
official record, please? A. Q. We have the May 14th one in the database. Okay. Why is that record, this one here that you
testified about when I was asking questions in the database, and this one not in the database? A. I don't recall exactly. In 1986, we could have received
a duplicated Form 2, or an amended Form 2. Q. All right. MR. MARTIN: Your Honor, I object to speculation. If
she doesn't know, she doesn't know. THE COURT: Will be overruled. One is an official document and the
(By Mr. Kumiega)
Brown - Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 other one is an unofficial document; is that correct? A. Q. Yes. If one is official and one is unofficial is it because
69
something was rejected, or can you explain to the jury what happens when this is not part, Defendant's Exhibit 100 is not part of your certified records? A. We could have a question about the form and asked the
manufacturer for further information. Q. All right. So if one is an official record and one is
not, are there multiple serial numbers that the government prohibited, ATF prohibited, I mean permitted Mr. Erb to have? A. Q. Could you repeat that question? If there is just one official serial number, one official
birthing document, and you deny Defendant's Exhibit 100, are there multiple guns under Erb the same serial number? A. Q. A. There are not. Okay. And why is that, please?
Because the first one was not put into the system because
of questions. Q. Okay. So there is only one form that -- this is the
correct form; is that correct? A. Q. Yes, it is. Let me ask you this: On the form, there are Xs after the
numbers. A.
What does that signify, please? I do not know.
I do not remember.
Brown - Redirect/Recross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. MARTIN: Q. Q. A. Q. A. Q. But they are not in this form; is that correct? That is correct. From your experience, does that -- is it significant? It could be. Okay. So you're just telling us there is only one
70
official E series; is that right? A. That is correct. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: (Brief pause) MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: No further questions, your Honor. Mr. Martin. RECROSS-EXAMINATION Your Honor, if I may have a moment. Yes.
Ms. Brown, this is Defendant's Exhibit No. 100, so there I've highlighted it at the top. That's an ATF
is no mistake.
marking, is it not, that this document has been microfiched, microfilmed? A. Q. That is correct. And there is nothing on the face of this document to say,
to indicate that it is a valid or invalid Form 2 on the face of the document, is there, ma'am? A. Q. No there is not. And on April 20th, 1986, this was submitted and you don't
know, you weren't involved in this process back then, were you, B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Brown - Recross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ma'am? A. I was employed at the time in the office in the NFA
71
branch. Q. Were you involved in these particular weapons being
registered on April 20th, 1986? A. Q. I was not. Okay. And the NFA branch is -- NFA stands for National
-- tell me what it is; I'll mess it up. A. Q. It's the National Firearms Act branch. Okay. And if someone asks the NFA to obtain a document
for them that would indicate these serial numbers and this document was produced, it would have been kept in your normal course of business there then; is that right? A. Q. Yes. Okay. And you don't know if there are two E676s and two
E677s all the way down to two E700s, do you, ma'am? A. Q. I did search the database. You don't know if there are firearms with those duplicate
numbers, do you, ma'am? A. Q. A. Q. Without the firearm, that is correct, I do not recall. Under Mr. Erb? I only found one under Mr. Erb. But there is no denying we have two forms with duplicate
numbers on them almost a month apart, the one you brought today and the one that we've introduced, Defendant's Exhibit 100; is B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Brown - Recross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that correct? A. Yes, it is. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: Nothing further.
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Mr. Kumiega and Mr. Martin, the Court made
a ruling on Government's 1.3, and at the time that the objection was made and the argument was made, the Court only was discussing initially the document prepared September 5th, 2008, with no discussion regarding all the supporting documents. And I didn't realize there was anything other than Based
that certification without the supporting documents.
upon the Court's review of the supporting documents, the Court is going to change its ruling and admit Government's Exhibit 1.3, realizing that the first two pages are only the certification of what are the supporting documents behind it similar to the other exhibits. So there was no discussion of those supporting documents, I understand you have an objection to the relevance of all of them except one; is that right, Mr. Martin? MR. MARTIN: Your Honor, maybe I misunderstand. I
don't think there are any supporting documents behind them. THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: than you do. THE COURT: documents. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603 I have 20-something pages of supporting Well, my -Maybe I have a different exhibit book
Brown - Recross/Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. KUMIEA: Q. MR. MARTIN: May we -- may we approach on that
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correct, your Honor, because I don't. THE COURT: Let's give it to Mr. Kumiega and see. Are
these supporting documents we behind it, Mr. Kumiega? in the Court's exhibit book. MR. KUMIEGA: talking about? THE COURT: 1.3. Yes, sir. Wait a minute, your Honor. 1.3, your Honor.
They are
Is that what you're
MR. KUMIEGA: MR. MARTIN:
I apologize.
I do have the documents that you're referring to. THE COURT: So based upon the Court's discovering that
the supporting documents were behind it, which weren't discussed during the bench conference, the Court is going to admit Exhibit 1.3. And based upon that admission, Mr. Kumiega, you can reopen your direct if you have other questions regarding this witness related to that. MR. KUMIEGA: Thank you, your Honor. REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Ms. Brown, if you could look at Government's Exhibit 1.3, What does that purport to be, please?
please. A.
This is a certification listing all the firearms that are
registered to Larry Douglas Friesen and Lobo Arms. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Brown - Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q.
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And those are the types of firearms that you explained to
the jury before, the machine guns, silencers, sawed off shotguns; is that correct? A. Q. Yes, they are. And how many, ma'am, are registered to Mr. Friesen's
inventory as of January 21st, 2003, please? A. Q. Seventeen. All right. And in that registration, is there a notation
or a number for a Sten Mark II machine gun with serial number E683? A. Q. Yes, there is. And as the Court referred to the supporting documents,
what are the supporting documents for your office, your agency to make that conclusion, please? A. I was able to pull the copies of the registration
documents for each firearm. Q. A. Excuse me? I was able to pull the copies of the registration
document for each firearm. Q. Would that include the Form 2s for each one, or just the
last time he received the firearms? A. This particular instance I pulled the current
registrations for Mr. Friesen. Q. Okay. If you wanted to, you could have done a, I guess a
birthing document for everything; is that correct? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Brown - Redirect/Recross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. BY MR. MARTIN: Q. A. Q. Ms. Brown, how accurate are the NFRTR records? I don't have a number. There are inaccuracies in them, wouldn't you agree, A. I could have pulled the ATF Form 2 and each subsequent
75
transfer document. Q. Let me ask you this: The Form 2 that would be -- you
would use the Form 2 to build your supporting documents; is that correct? A. Q. Yes, sir. There is only one Form 2 approved by ATF; is that
correct? A. Q. That is correct. Okay. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: to that exhibit. RECROSS-EXAMINATION Nothing further, your Honor.
Mr. Martin, you may cross-examine relating
ma'am? MR. KUMIEGA: Objection, your Honor. That's not part
of the direct examination. specific serial numbers. THE COURT:
We're here to discuss certain
Be overruled. There are inaccuracies in them, are
(By Mr. Martin)
there not, ma'am? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Brown - Recross/Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. KUMIEGA: Q. A. Ma'am, you testified about E682; is that correct? Yes. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603 A. Q. A. Yes, there are.
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The Form 2, the birthing documents, who approves those? They are a notice of manufacture. We accept them from
the manufacturer or importer. Q. So nobody approves them, I just send one in if I'm
licensed to do that? A. Q. That is correct. So if I sent one in on May 14th, you accepted it, if I
sent one in on April 20th, you accepted it; is that right? A. We could contact you and ask you, you know, the concern
if they were the same numbers. Q. A. Okay. You don't know what happened in this instance?
No, I do not. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: Nothing further. Anything further. Yes. May I voir dire about the numbers,
MR. KUMIEGA: your Honor? THE COURT:
Voir dire about the numbers? Ask her questions about the numbers,
MR. KUMIEGA:
your Honor, that Mr. Martin just brought up. THE COURT: All right. REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Brown - Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. E683, E685, and you also had information on the part
77
number, D95843; is that correct? A. Q. Yes, I did. Have you found any inaccuracies as you put together your
presentation today for those numbers? A. No, I did not. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: Nothing further, your Honor.
Ms. Brown, you may be excused, and I would
advise you that you're not to discuss the testimony you've given here today with other persons who may be a witness in this matter. You may be excused.
Who is your next witness? MR. KUMIEGA: Eric Booker from the ATF. He might be a
lengthy witness, your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. We're going to take our lunch break I'm Assuming all of you
at this time and reconvene at 12:45.
know about or discovered that there are numerous downtown places to eat, both in the tunnel and above ground and close by. So again, I would remind you to not discuss the case among
yourselves or with others or reach any on conclusions until you've heard all the evidence and I've instructed you on the law. We'll reconvene at 12:45. All rise while the jury exits. (The jury exits the courtroom, after which the following was had in open court:) B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Brown - Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: Mr. Kumiega, Mr. Martin, without tabs I
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thought the only thing we were objecting to was this certification. The Court did not look beyond because there are
no particular tabs on all these various exhibits, so I didn't realize that there were all the supporting documents which are business records exceptions. And so the ruling of the Court
will be in all those exhibits where there are the supporting documentations, why, the certification will be included in part of that exhibit. But the -- and, of course, other issues of
relevance and other matters can always be objected to, but as I say, when I made my initial ruling I didn't look beyond that initial page which is not a business record, but -- Mr. Martin. MR. MARTIN: Your Honor, I had asked you to reserve My objection will be the
ruling on 1.5, which was E686.
accuracy of the record based upon Defendant's Exhibit 100, but I didn't want the record to go silent in that area. THE COURT: Booker - Direct overrule the objection based upon that objection. We'll be in recess until 12:45. (A recess was had, after which the following was had in open court:) THE COURT: Government may call its next witness. Yes, your Honor. The United States The Court will admit Exhibit 1.5 and .H1 ~
MR. KUMIEGA:
would like to call Eric Booker. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Brown - Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. KUMIEGA: Q. Sir, for the record, can you introduce yourself to the (Witness sworn) THE COURT: Have a seat, sir.
79
You may proceed, Mr. Kumiega. MR. KUMIEGA: Thank you, your Honor. ERIC BOOKER, called as a witness, having been duly sworn, testifies as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION
jury, please? A. Q. A. My name is Eric Booker. Mr. Booker, how are you employed? I'm a special agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. And how long have you been working with ATF? For seven years now. Do you office out of Oklahoma City? Yes, I do. And prior to working with ATF, what did you do, please? I was a state probation and parole officer for
approximately two years in Tulsa. Q. Now, on or about I think June 10th, 2004, you were part
of a search warrant team; is that correct? A. That's correct. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. And what were your tasks? What were your duties that
80
day, please? A. I was there when we made entry into the law office. I
took video of the law office and I took photographs of evidence. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. All right. And how long did that take you to do, please?
The whole time we were there? Yes, sir. I would guess two or three hours. And what time did you knock on the door, please? 7:45, 8 a.m. You also took video of another location; is that correct? At the home residence. All right. And what did you do first, please?
The office itself. And you said took about two hours, you said? I'm thinking. And when did you go to the residence? I was trying to remember that; it was years ago. I
honestly can't remember if I left the office and went to the residence and shot video and then went back to the office, or if we completed the office and then I went to the residence. Q. When you were making entry into the office, was there
another team doing something else? A. Yeah. There were other additional agents at the
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 residence. Q. A. Q. All right. Yes. All right. So simultaneous entry?
81
So you said you had a specific task that day;
is that correct? A. Q. I shot the video and took the photographs. Why did you take a video camera to both the residence and
the law office on June 10th, 2004? A. It's actually ATF policy that we shoot video. Once we
secure a residence or location we shoot a video of the location as it is then and then we shoot a video of the location as it is when we depart it. Q. A. Q. And you did that; is that correct? Yes. And for the presentation today, you looked at the
original tapes of your handiwork, taking the pictures; is that correct? A. Q. A. Yes. And what kind of camera did you use? It was either a Sony PC5 or PC9. It's just a small
hand-held camcorder. Q. And did you have the opportunity then to change that
format to a different format? A. Q. I myself didn't, but it has been transferred to a DVD. And did you ensure the accuracy of the first tape was B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 correct with the DVD? A. Q. A. Q. I've looked at it on computer, yes. And they are accurate; is that correct? Yes. Now, did you also have the ability -- did you take any
82
notes during your search? A. Q. I did not. All right. Did you also, you said you seized evidence;
is that correct? A. Some evidence was seized from the residence, yes, and,
I'm sorry, the office. Q. A. Q. A. Okay. And do you know what happened to that evidence?
It was taken into the ATF evidence vault. And tell us about custody about control of that, please. Following the search, the items that were taken would
have been logged in, would have been put in a vehicle and driven to the ATF office where they would have remained in a secure, what's called the outer vault. One the case agent puts
them into our data base system they are assigned, like, a PIN number or an item number. secured evidence vault. Q. Agent, the video that you shot basically has two segments At that point they are placed into a
for each structure, for the law office and for the residence; is that correct? A. That's correct. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Q. A. Can you tell the jury about that, please? Again, there would be an entry portion where we first That would be a video
83
secured the residence or the office.
shot within the first few minutes basically of securing the location. It shows the residence as it was while we searched The second version will be
it or prior to searching it.
basically the same thing, and it's showing the office and the residence as we left it. Q. In front of you if you can look at Government's Exhibit, Can you look at that, please? Is there
proffered Exhibit 2.0. a notation for 2.0? A.
It says "physical evidence". MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, may I approach the witness,
your Honor? THE COURT: Yes. What I have here, sir, is Government's Can you look
(By Mr. Kumiega)
Exhibit 2.0 and 2.01 for identification purposes. at that, please? A. Q. A. Yes. What are they, please?
Are you familiar with those exhibits?
Exhibit 2.0 is the actual digital videotape made by the
camcorder at the office, and 2.01 is the DVD that was made of that. Q. Can you now flip to Government's Exhibit 3.0 and 3.01, Is there a notation on that, please?
please?
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. again? THE COURT: Yes. Sir, what I've handed you are marked A. Yes. It says "physical evidence". Your Honor, may I approach the witness
84
MR. KUMIEGA:
(By Mr. Kumiega)
3.0 and 3.01. A. Q.
Are you familiar with those proffered exhibits?
What was that again? Are you familiar with those proffered exhibits I've just
handed you? A. Q. A. Yes. What are they, please? 3.0 would be the digital videotape shot at Doug Friesen's 3.01 should be the DVD conversion of this tape.
residence. Q.
Also, did you also take or someone in your office take
companion still photographs of both searches of the residence and of the office? A. I took photographs at the office, another agent took
photographs at the residence. Q. All right. Now, did I ask you this, but out of an
abundance of caution, you said that you've looked at 2.0 and 2.01 and they are accurate; is that correct? A. Q. A. Yes. And same with 3.0 and 3.01; is that correct? Yes. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, the United States at this
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 time would move for the admission of Government's Exhibit 2.0 and 2.01 and Government's Exhibit 3.0 and 3.01, your Honor. MR. MARTIN: very briefly. THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: What's the objection? I have an objection if I could approach
85
The objection, number one, your Honor, is
we have -- there's preserving the record on a motion that was previous by filed to suppress, and also there is audio on these videos, your Honor, that I don't think is an appropriate narration, and some of them are staged. THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: What's the audio of? Judge, my understanding of the audio,
and we can delete it, or mute it, my understanding it's just a running commentary of what he sees. THE COURT: Why don't we mute the audio. Yes, sir. May the agent testify to the
MR. KUMIEGA:
jury what he's seeing as he goes through the tape? THE COURT: Well, we can mute the audio and the agent
can testify regarding the pictures. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: All right.
The objection will be overruled. There is one staged photo that I would
like specifically to be heard on, your Honor. THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: Which -It's on the video of the office.
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: That's the 3? That's No. 2, actually. Oh, the office is No. 2? Yes, sir.
86
MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: they get upstairs. THE COURT:
Which part of the -It's part of the video, your Honor, when
Counsel approach.
(The following was had at the bench, out of the hearing of the jury:) MR. MARTIN: Your Honor, under my client's desk there
is a gun that's mounted on a swivel, and in the video it's shown, and there will be some exhibits like that that are shown. I think the evidence will be that that gun, number one,
is not pointed like that, it's pointed like that (indicating), to -- away from the front of the desk, and number two, I think it's such a prejudicial nature that it so outweighs any probative value. They are going to get evidence in about it,
but these photographs are highly prejudicial. THE COURT: What's the relevance? First of all. These are not staged,
MR. KUMIEGA:
this is the way the agent found them, and he's going to testify to that. But second, this goes to Count No. 2 of the
government's indictment, I think it was Count No. 2 when the inspector says do you have any other guns stored in your office B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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and he says this one and a gun in the closet and another in the display case, and he neglects to talk about the guns found in the vault on the day of the inspection that we found the secret room that goes back to February 19, 2003. relevant. So all this is
It shows he has the guns he admits, but does not
admit to the guns being in the vault during the search warrant. These are relevant. MR. MARTIN: substantive crime. He admitted this one. This is not a
He said there is a gun stored in my desk. Then the jury is entitled to see how the
MR. KUMIEGA: gun is being stored. THE COURT:
Is that one -- did he show the inspector
this gun when they first came in? MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: Yes, he did.
How is that part of Count No. 2? This shows that he had the gun stored on
MR. KUMIEGA:
the second floor but did not tell the inspectors. THE COURT: So he never -- he did not tell the
inspectors about this gun? MR. KUMIEGA: MR. MARTIN: MR. KUMIEGA: No. He did.
He did. He tells the inspectors about this gun
and the gun in the closet and another gun in the display case on the second floor, and these are guns we're going to introduce. But he didn't talk about the guns in the safe.
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 is it -MR. KUMIEGA: The jury is entitled to see where he's THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: So Count No. 2 is the guns in the safe.
88
But this shows he's truthful about this That's the relevancy
but is being deceitful on something else. of this. THE COURT:
I don't see how that's relevant if that's
not part of Count No. 2. MR. KUMIEGA: displays it. He has this registered, it's the way he
But the point is he only discloses that and
doesn't disclose the machine gun which we believe is in the vault on the day of the search on the, on the day of the inspection. That's the whole purpose of this. But this isn't part of the Count No. 2,
THE COURT: the charge --
MR. KUMIEGA: count, your Honor. THE COURT:
It's part of the relevance of that
If he told them about it and showed it how
storing his guns and why he neglected to talk about the safe on the first floor behind the library on the bookshelf. MR. MARTIN: While we're up here I've also got, and we
might just address it now, they've got a photograph of every gun he owns they plan to introduce. is no issue about it. They are all legal, there I
They have no relevance to the case.
mean, unless -- I guess what I'm saying is there's, like, I B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 don't know how many there are. There's 30 or 40 pictures of
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firearms that are totally legal that he can lawfully have but it appears they just want to show pictures of firearms, and I'm going to, I need to object to them. through 2.21. They are Exhibits 2.2 All those
So it would be 2.2, 2.3, 2.4.
exhibits I can tell you from what I can tell they all appear legal, and same thing will happen in the house. THE COURT: What's the relevance of all this? The guns that he has in the safe, your
MR. KUMIEGA:
Honor, on the 19th of February, 2003, he never discloses those guns in the safe. When we do the search warrant and the
testimony from the employees is that gun room was always chock full of firearms. So by circumstantial evidence, Mr. Friesen
is lying to the inspectors on the day of the compliance inspection where he's keeping his guns. find the registered -THE COURT: My question is, what's the relevancy of That's why we'll never
showing all these guns that are legal? MR. KUMIEGA: the point. Because he is lying about them. That's
He had them stored and that's why they were missing
guns and he never explained it. THE COURT: So these guns were all missing during the
compliance inspection? MR. KUMIEGA: They are not missing, they are being
stored and never divulged. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 were. THE COURT: So what about all the others? It shows the relevance that he was THE COURT:
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So these guns, all of these exhibits were
never divulged during the compliance inspection? MR. KUMIEGA: one gun missing. He was using those guns -- yes, there is
That Johnson gun, that's part of my -So one out of all these pictures of guns,
THE COURT:
all the others were hidden and concealed? MR. KUMIEGA: time of the search. He didn't have a license anymore at the But the evidence will show that at the
time of the compliance he was storing these guns, storing guns of like nature in there, and that's why it's relevant to show he was lying to the inspectors. THE COURT: It's a gun vault -The
We're not communicating, mr. Kumiega.
pictures of all these guns that he's objecting to were all hidden in a gun vault and not shown to the inspectors? MR. KUMIEGA: No. I'm saying at least one of the guns
MR. KUMIEGA:
actually using the vault to store firearms during the inspection and never divulged them. THE COURT: What about 30 pictures of guns that were
disclosed that were suspected that he did own properly, why have all of those pictures? MR. KUMIEGA: Because it shows he's lying to the This was an actual
inspectors on the day of the compliance.
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 storage room that -THE COURT: We're not communicating. Are you saying
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that in this storage room all of these guns were hidden and were not shown to compliance inspectors? MR. KUMIEGA: I can't say that. I can't say if these But it's
guns were on his books on this day.
I can find out.
not the relevance, just showing he was using a storage compartment and one of the guns that he should have declared, because he got it in December of 2002 and the inspection occurred on February of 2003, when we did the search warrant it was in that hidden room, he never divulged that gun. THE COURT: So we're talking about one gun? But these show he was using a storage
MR. KUMIEGA: room to have guns.
Remember when we do the search warrant he He's got a duty to
gave up his firearms license prior to that.
disclose it at that time, but shows he had a gun vault to store firearms. That's why it goes to the lie to the inspectors. One gun I understand; the rest I don't. There's guns, they've
MR. MARTIN:
And that's the problem with the video.
got guns laying out all over the house that they are showing, they are all legal and there is no, I don't know, there's no issue as to whether or not the officers did something improper or anything during the search. of guns in a bunch of rooms. The video goes to show a bunch If he's
And that's my concern.
got a particular gun that he says was in the safe, you know, B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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until I can refute it, which I'll tell you I'll be able to, but I think he can get that photograph in, of that one particular gun. MR. KUMIEGA: hidden on that day. MR. MARTIN: These guns bolster the gun that was That's the whole point, he was using it. The inventory was February 2003. The
search was 16, 18 months later. MR. KUMIEGA: MR. MARTIN: Right. You're making a leap that from February
to 18 months later that gun was still in there or was put in there. MR. KUMIEGA: The employees are all going to testify
that he kept guns in the gun vault at the time of the compliance inspection. They cannot say exactly what date, but
everybody in the office knew that's where he kept a boatload of his firearms, and this proves it. THE COURT: So all of these guns were not there during
the compliance inspection but were there during the search warrant? MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: That's our position. Is what you're saying? We don't know what was there during the
compliance inspection because he never showed that vault. That's the whole point, it was hidden and that's the point, because the inspectors have a right to look through the Lobo B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Arms -- remember, your Honor, he's supposed to be selling the guns. That's the ground zero, and he's supposed to tell the
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inspectors everywhere he keeps guns, in a gun vault -THE COURT: Which one gun was -Excuse me? So you don't know. So these
-- at least.
guns don't comply with the guns that were done during the inspection. Is that what you're saying? I don't know. I honestly --
Some do, some don't. I honestly don't know, your Honor. If I
MR. KUMIEGA:
can have a minute break I can ask Valerie Rowden, because she's the one that did the deal. But it tends to show that he was
storing guns during the compliance inspection because that gun vault was installed way before February of 2003. And the
employees are going to say he always kept guns in the gun vault and never divulged it in February of '03. relevance. That's the whole
It tends to support that's what he was doing and And remember, he's a FFL on It's
that's where the lie comes from.
the day, he's got to tell them where the guns are stored. material to the case. THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: Mr. Martin.
Your Honor, our position is that there We'll have evidence to
were no guns in the safe on that day.
support that, even though Mr. Kumiega is going to say we don't. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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One gun he can possibly put in that safe, a gun by the name of Annette Johnson, I believe. And you know, I don't have a
problem with that, because I think he'll lay the foundation to get that in. have. They can refute it, but that's the problem I
He's going to have -- and I don't have them here, but
there's picture after picture after picture of handguns, hunting guns, all kind of firearms that have no relevance other than to prejudice this jury. MR. KUMIEGA: the way they found it. Kind of like that picture. That's
That's what -- it's not staged.
That's the way he stores his guns.
That tends to show a machine gun was missing when you look at the totality of the evidence. Incrementally it still shows
that he kept a storage place and never divulged it in February of '03. MR. MARTIN: Those the whole crux of this. And these
are, remember he drops his license before that.
The Court can
give a limiting instruction that shows what it's limited to do, and there's not anything prejudicial about it. THE COURT: intended to do. MR. KUMIEGA: I'm telling you. THE COURT: How does it show he lied if he's got a Your Honor, just showing he's lying. I'm still not understanding what it's
bunch of legal guns laying around? MR. KUMIEGA: Because he's got to divulge it.
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: So he didn't divulge any of these guns?
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MR. KUMIEGA: safe in there. THE COURT:
He did not divulge that there was a gun
Did he divulge -- I don't see how that So we know one out of
connects with what was divulged or not. all these. MR. KUMIEGA:
But it tends to show that's where he was
keeping the gun and tends to show that one gun is a lie and that's enough to make it material as to count No. 2. They The
bolster each other that he used it and never divulged it.
machine gun, the registered Sten, it could have been in there but it's material to that count. MR. MARTIN: inspectors. office. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: Without the serial number on it. Okay. If I can get a five-minute break I can He showed the machine gun to the
They saw the Sten, the only one he had in his
go over these numbers, but I'm telling you I believe this is highly relevant to the case. THE COURT: I'm not sure how, but I'm going to I haven't seen the video,
overrule the objection, Mr. Martin. I haven't seen all the pictures. MR. MARTIN:
This is the one that causes me the most
heartburn, at least this picture, 2.20, but -B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Honor? day. THE COURT: THE COURT: And he divulged it? Yes.
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So what's the purpose of that? Shows how he was storing his guns that
MR. KUMIEGA:
If he divulged it it doesn't matter how he
stored them, does it? MR. KUMIEGA: way they were stored. THE COURT: Didn't look too haphazard to me. I'm Just shows the haphazard nature of the
going to sustain the objection to that. prejudicial than probative. MR. KUMIEGA:
I think it is more
How do I redact it out of the tape, your
We can show -- we gave this to them a long time ago. MR. MARTIN: I didn't think there was an issue until I
got our exhibit list, but I don't think there was any issue about what happened in the search. THE COURT: Do you know where it is so when you come
to it, we can skip that? MR. KUMIEGA: It's going to be hard to redact it. I
would need a couple of minutes. THE COURT: We'll stand at ease then. Judge, it's going to --
MR. KUMIEGA:
(The following was had in open court, within the hearing of the jury:) B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: May I approach? Yes.
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(The following was had at the bench, out of the hearing of the jury:) MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, to ensure accuracy and I
don't violate anything, I'm going to need a couple of minutes. Can I go use a conference room? THE COURT: You can't do it here. The jury might see it.
Not if you turn it towards you. They might hear something. Out of an
MR. KUMIEGA:
abundance of cautious, I don't want to prejudice anything. THE COURT: You can turn the machine that way and
silently put it on mute. MR. KUMIEGA: Okay.
(The following was had in open court, within the hearing of the jury:) THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we're just taking a
few minutes here to correct one little thing in the video that you're about to see. So it will just take a couple minutes for
them to get through that. (Brief pause) THE COURT: MS. WEBB: Did you get it done, Ms. Webb Can I have just a second, your Honor? Your Honor, can we dim the lights when
MR. KUMIEGA:
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. we play the tape? THE COURT: Oh, sure. This is different courtroom
98
than we've used in the past, but we'll figure it out. Ms. Youngberg you may put us all in the dark, but can you figure out where the lights are? MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, with the correction that you
ordered the government, may the government play 2.01? THE COURT: You may proceed.
(Government's Exhibit 2.01 played, with the following commentary:) Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. (By Mr. Kumiega) Agent Booker, what is that?
That's the Doug Friesen Law Firm. What day is this search? June 2004. And you're taking this video; is that correct? Yes. All right. Yeah. Is that like a panorama of the office?
That's a 360 degree view.
Anybody teach you how to work a video camera? Not especially well. What is that? Can you describe that for the jury,
please?
As you walk in the front door of the law firm to the left
there's kind of a receptionist desk. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. What's that, Agent? It's just a closet. On the first floor? Yes. What is that, sir? Looks like stairs going down to the basement. All right, Agent. MR. KUMIEGA: (By Mr. Kumiega) Stop right there. Explain this to the jury, please.
99
That area during the search we referred it as the Obviously has the large book cases with the books in I'm not
library. it.
Basically kind of had a quasi secret compartment.
sure how it was released, but somehow you that panel is released and that bookcase swung in, and once it did there was a small area back behind the bookcase. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. And did you attempt to photograph that, please? Yes. Both by video and still? There are some still pictures in there. Okay. Yes. What happens next? MR. KUMIEGA: What are you recording now? If you can Yes.
Does that show how it swings open?
Stop right there, please. Right there. Okay.
back up about five seconds. Q. (By Mr. Kumiega)
What is that, please?
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. that? A. Q. A. The kitchen area. Is this on the first or second floor? On the first floor. The floor you enter on from the It's a gun safe. All right. How do you know that?
100
We looked inside of it. All right. Continue please. What area of the office is
front entrance. Q. A. What's that, Agent? That's crossing from the kitchen into I believe the
conference room. Q. Now, during the course of the entry and exit video, did
you find some firearms upstairs? A. Q. A. Q. A. There were some firearms upstairs. And were they NFA type weapons? I believe one of them was. All right. And what is an NFA type weapon? Yes.
A firearm that has to be registered with ATF that
encompasses machine guns, silencers, destructive devices. Those type things. Q. area? A. Q. Yes. Did you find some in the closet area? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603 Now, did you find some of these firearms in the desk
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes. This is in his office on the second floor? In his office on the second floor. And did you find some in the display case? Yes. All on the second floor? Yes. Now, what is this, please? This is coming up the stairs. Whose office is that? The one we just walked into? The one we just saw. The one that was dead ahead was Mr. Friesen's office;
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it's not this office. Q. A. Q. Okay. Yes. Tell us when you get into Mr. Friesen's office, please. Is this a side office?
Whose office is that, sir? A. Right there, I don't know whose office that particular
one is. MR. KUMIEGA: (By Mr. Kumiega) Stop at this point. Whose office is this now, please?
This would be Doug Friesen's office. Did you find firearms in that office? Yes. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Honor. THE COURT: Same principal. Q. case? A. Q. A. Q. A. There was one firearm in a display case. Do you know where in the office it was located, sir? I'm not for sure where. Where do you think it was? MR. KUMIEGA: (By Mr. Kumiega) Stop right there. Were there firearms in the display
102
It would have been laying on a table, it was in a display
case maybe 12 or 14 inch, a glass top with a Derringer and some ammunition in it. MR. KUMIEGA: Stop right there. seconds. Q. (By Mr. Kumiega) Agent, did you find firearms associated Continue. Back up about three seconds, five
with that desk? A. Q. A. Yes. What type of firearms did you find? There was a .22 pistol in one of the drawers, underneath
the desk -MR. MARTIN: addressed this issue. THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: Will be sustained. I thought it was the photograph, your Your Honor, may we -- I thought we
He found firearms in the
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Q. Q. desk. MR. KUMIEGA: (By Mr. Kumiega) All right.
103
How many firearms did you find in the
desk area? A. Q. In the desk area? Okay. MR. KUMIEGA: Continue, please. I believe three.
Your Honor, I believe that concludes our presentation for the jury as to the videotape. THE COURT: All right.
(Video concluded) (By Mr. Kumiega) Agent, you also testified that you
helped inventory a gun safe on the first floor; is that correct? A. Q. Yes. All right. Government's Exhibit 2.02. What is that,
please? A. That is a photograph of the Friesen Law Firm, actual
structure. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, may the United States admit
Government's Exhibit 2.02? MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: No objection. Will be admitted. That's the picture of the office; is
(By Mr. Kumiega)
that correct? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Honor. THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: Which one is that? I think it's going to be a series of A. Q. A. Q. A. That's correct. Okay. Okay. Have you seen that before?
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Can you look at Government's Exhibit 2.1, please.
That is the gun safe that was located in the, behind the
panel, bookcase in the library. Q. Okay. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, the United States at this
time would move for admittance of 2.1 into evidence. MR. MARTIN: Your Honor, as to these and the rest of
the exhibits, I'll raise the same objection I raised at the bench a minute ago. THE COURT: The objection will be overruled. Is there
a still picture of the one that the Court sustained an objection? MR. KUMIEGA: Yes. I'm not bringing that up, your
guns, depending upon how the Court rules, the gun in question that the Court looked at is 2.20. 2.19 or 2.21. Mr. Martin did not object to
That's up for the Court's consideration. The Court is going to overrule the
THE COURT:
objection to all of the exhibits except 2.20, and I'll sustain the objection to that. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Q. MR. KUMIEGA:
105
Your Honor, the United States then would
move in toto for the introduction, to save the Court time, 2.1 up to 2.19, and 2.21, your Honor. introduction of those exhibits. THE COURT: The Court will note the defendant's We would move for the
objections and overrule those objections, and they'll be admitted. Did you say 2.21? 2.1 to --
MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA:
2.19? Yes, sir. Then I'm skipping 2.20 and
going to 2.21, your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. All but 2.20 will be admitted.
Yes, sir. All these photographs you've looked at
and they accurately depict the scene on June 10th, 2004; is that correct? A. Q. A. Yes. What is that? That is the gun safe that was located behind the bookcase
kind of in the hidden compartment location. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, maybe I think if we can just
take out these series of lights the jury can see a lot better. THE COURT: Okay. Ms. Youngberg.
(By Mr. Kumiega)
And for the record, what does that say,
please? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 please. Q. (By Mr. Kumiega) Can you describe that for the jury, A. Q. A. What does it say? Yeah. On the vault.
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Armor Vault. MR. KUMIEGA: 2.2, if we can show the jury that,
please, and for the record? A. That's the inside of the gun vault. A few things stacked
there on the left and long guns there on the right. Q. A. 2.3, please. What is that, please? There's
Another picture of the inside of the gun vault.
two handguns hanging there on the right. Q. A. Q. And does that swing open, I imagine. That's the front door to that vault swung open. All right. And, again, this is all behind the library
shelves; is that right? A. Q. A. Correct. 2.4, please. What does that appear to be, please? Two firearms were
That is the top of the gun vault.
found up on top of it. Q. And that black thing, from your experience do you know
what that is? A. Q. A. It's a gun box. 2.5, please. What is that, please?
That is a pistol that was removed from the inside of the B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 gun safe. Q. For the record, can you read that into the record and
107
serial number, please? A. Yeah. That is a -- I'm going to have to look at the That's a FIE .22 caliber
report to get the serial numbers.
revolver model E15 and had a serial number of 35267. Q. A. Q. A. Government's Exhibit 2.6, please. That is a semi-automatic pistol. What kind and serial number, please? It's a Star .22 caliber semi-automatic pistol and it had What is that?
serial number 424947. Q. Government's Exhibit 2.7. Can you describe that for the
jury, please? A. Yeah. It is Taurus model 0830 ultralight titanium .38
caliber revolver, serial number SG506657, and it was found in that gun box sitting on top of the gun safe. Q. A. Government's Exhibit 2.8. That is a Baretta model 92A nine millimeter
semi-automatic pistol, and it had serial number BER4532980Z, as in zebra. Q. Okay. Before I introduce physical evidence, can you
explain what 2.9.1 is, please? A. That is a Baretta pistol box, and it has inside a, like a
plastic trash bag, it had a name attached to the trash bag, and it was sitting on top of the gun safe as well. It wasn't
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. actually inside of it. MR. KUMIEGA: Exhibit 2.9? THE COURT: 2 point what? 2.9, your Honor. Your Honor, may I approach regarding
108
MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: the bench. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT:
Oh, sure.
I thought you meant approach
Oh, no. Yes.
You may approach the witness.
(By Mr. Kumiega)
Agent, what is this, and if you can
open the box and tell the jury what is contained inside the box? A. This is a gun box for a Baretta nine millimeter pistol.
And inside is a scrap of paper that was inside the box, as well as the bag the box was found in, and two pistol magazines. Q. Okay. And is there a notation or a name contained in
there, please? A. This particular piece of paper says Annette Johnson, and
it's dated 12/19/02, and this tag on the plastic trash bag says Annette Johnson. Q. All right. You said the date was 2/19/02; is that
correct? A. Q. A. It looks like 12/19 of '02 to me. Okay. 12/19?
Uh-huh. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Government's Exhibit 2.10, please.
109
That is Reuger 1022, it's a .22 caliber semi-automatic
rifle, and it had serial number 120-81461. Q. A. Government's Exhibit 2.11, please. Listed as High Standard Apache AP-212 .12 gauge
semi-automatic shotgun with no serial number. Q. A. 2.12? It's a browning .12 gauge semi-automatic shotgun, and no
serial number was found on it either. Q. A. Q. A. Is that weapon camouflaged? Yes. It had been painted camouflage.
2.13, please? That's a Norinco SKS 7.62 caliber semi-automatic rifle,
and it is going to be serial number 11111911. Q. A. Government's Exhibit 2.14, please. It's a Remington 870 .12 gauge shotgun. It's serial
number C044893M, as in Mary. Q. A. Photograph 2.15, please. Another Norinco SKS 7.62 caliber semi-automatic rifle.
This is going to be serial number No. 1-1802354. Q. A. Government's Exhibit 2.16. It's an U.S. carbine M1 .30 caliber semi-automatic rifle. And it had serial number 851400.
Let's see. Q. A.
Government's 2.17, please? 2.17 was a note that has a firearms description and then B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 numbers that look like possible prices out to the side. Q. A. Can you read that into the record, please?
110
Says 1, then Mk11 suppressor, 400, micro Uzi pistol nine
millimeter, 1600, right below that says silencer, and looks like Nolan suppressor, 400. Sten Mark II subgun nine
millimeter 1200, Walther PPK pistol with silencer, 900, and Stinger .22 caliber, 250. Q. A. Government's Exhibit 2.18, please. It's a display case that was in the office that contained
the Derringer I talked about earlier, as well as some rounds of ammunition and the knife. Q. A. 2.19. It's a firearm that was located inside a closet in the
main office. Q. All right. Can you particularly tell either the serial
number of that weapon and if it had a silencer, please? A. Q. A. Q. A. I can't tell from the photograph. Do you remember seizing it? It wasn't seized. Okay. Why not?
Honestly, I didn't make the determination what was seized I spoke with Delbert Knopp and he said take this or
or not.
don't take this. Q. A. All right. Yes. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603 That's the agent here; is that right?
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. He's the case agent; is that right? That's correct. Government's Exhibit 2.21, please.
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What is that, sir?
That is a pistol that was in the drawer of Doug Friesen's
office. Q. A. Q. A. Q. And why the elongated barrel, please? It has a silencer affixed to it. And did you record a serial number in your records? I didn't. No.
Now, you also said that you took the videotape of the
search of Mr. Friesen's residence; is that correct? A. Q. That's correct. And you reviewed that and you believe that 3.0, the
actual tape, is copied correctly and accurately in Government's Exhibit 3.01; is that right? A. Yes. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, may the United States play
Government's Exhibit 3.0 1 into evidence? MR. MARTIN: audio out again. MR. KUMIEGA: MR. MARTIN: Yes. Based on what's just happened, I have a Your Honor, I'm assuming we'll take the
limiting instruction I would like to present to the Court. THE COURT: All right.
(The following was had at the bench, out of the hearing of B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the jury:) MR. MARTIN:
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I don't know what purpose it was to ask
him the serial number other than to find out that some of the guns did not have serial numbers, which may cause some concerns with some of the jurors. I would ask the Court to instruct the
jury that the fact that some of the firearms they just viewed don't have serial numbers is no concern and not a violation of the law and they should not consider it. something out along that line. And I've written
But the serial number -- we're That's
not charged with any of these weapons that was shown. the concern.
We've got a bunch of guns they've introduced that
don't have anything to do -THE COURT: Why don't you ask the agent in
cross-examination about that. MR. MARTIN: jury ought to know. THE COURT: Why don't you ask the agent in I intended to do that, but I think the
cross-examination, if it's something that's confusing then we'll discuss it further. (The following was had in open court, within the hearing of the jury:) MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, may I play the tape with the
narration by the agent? THE COURT: Yes.
(Government's Exhibit 3.0 played with the following B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 commentary:) Q. A. (By Mr. Kumiega) What is that, sir?
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That is the residence that was in the search warrant for
the residence of Doug Friesen. Q. A. Q. Do you know the address, please? I don't know the address. Can you give the jury a general whereabouts the residence
is located at? A. It's just to the north of downtown. I don't know if it's
in Heritage Hills, but in that general vicinity. Q. A. Q. Is the address 524 NW 17th Street? That's what it looks like. Can you describe to the jury what kind of state of repair
the building is in? A. The residence seemed to be undergoing a major remodeling
project, so it was in various states of construction. Q. A. What part of the building is this? You went up a flight of stairs to get to the porch; it I believe there was one
would be on that level of the house.
level above and I think there's a basement in this house. Q. A. Tell the jury where you're at, please. That was the back porch and that's entering back on the It's
main level which I'm guess that's the living room area. under so much construction it was sometimes hard to differentiate levels of the house.
This is going up the stairs
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. to the next level. MR. KUMIEGA:
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Your Honor, I'm going to ask the tape be
stopped and advanced to the basement. THE COURT: Okay. Agent, what's going on here?
(By Mr. Kumiega)
This is going downstairs. To where? I think that's back in the main level. And now it's
going back down towards the basement of the residence. Q. A. What room is this, please, if you know? I don't know how to describe it. It's obviously a poker I don't know what
table and stuff like that. you call it. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A.
The bar area.
Is this still in the basement? Yes. What room is that, sir? Looks like a storage closet. And what room is this? Kind of like a shop area. There's, like, tools and stuff
like that. Q. A. Q. A. Q. What is that? It's a gun safe. Where is it located, for the record? It's in the basement of the residence. Do you know what was found there? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Booker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Q. A. I know there were guns. I didn't participate in the
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search. Q.
Once I shot the video I left. Continue. Was there construction work going on in
Okay.
that part of the building? A. Seems like there was some. MR. KUMIEGA: (By Mr. Kumiega) Stop that. Go back a little bit.
When you were down there were there
other agents there? A. Q. Yeah. Do you know if these firearms were being inventoried by
anyone? A. Q. A. Q. I'm assuming after the video they would have been. Do you know where the machine gun was located? I don't know. Agent, some of the items were seized by your agency and
brought to your office in Oklahoma City; is that correct? A. Yes. THE COURT: Can we turn the lights on, Mr. Kumiega? Yes, sir. And who was the agent, sir, that was
making the determination what firearms to seize and not seize? A. Special Agent Delbert Knopp. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: (Brief pause) B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603 Your Honor, if I may have a moment. Yes.
Booker - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. MARTIN: Q. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: Your Honor, we pass the witness.
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Cross-examine, Mr. Martin. CROSS-EXAMINATION
Agent Booker, while ago you've shown us two videos that
you took, I believe one of them was of Mr. Friesen's office, the law office, correct? A. Q. A. Q. Correct. One of them was of the house, correct? Correct. And I think not only did you do what they call an entry
video, but you did an exit video, correct? A. Q. Yes. And I believe you testified on direct examination of
various types of firearms that were actually located in the office. You pointed them out and Mr. Kumiega had you say what Do you
they were and what the serial numbers were on them. remember that? A.
I don't think that he did for -- well, which ones?
The
ones in the gun safe? Q. A. Q. The ones at the office. The ones in the gun safe. Yes.
You went through a list of what the weapons were,
photographs? A. Correct. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Booker - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q.
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And, for example, Mr. Kumiega asked you, I think it was 1.19 is a gun in a
Exhibit 1.19, which has been admitted. closet, right? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Let me see it. Excuse me. 2.19. I apologize.
I'm sorry.
That is -- that's a gun in a closet. And that weapon wasn't even seized by -It wasn't. -- Agent Knopp, but you took a picture of it anyway? Yes. And you understand, I think you testified some of the
weapons that you took pictures of you couldn't find the serial numbers on them; is that right? A. Q. A. Q. Some of them didn't have serial numbers, correct. You couldn't find serial numbers on them? That's correct. You didn't take them all apart and remove the sights and
break then down to see if they had serial numbers that you couldn't locate? A. Q. No. So you were unable to find immediate visible serial
numbers on some of them? A. Q. Correct. And you know, none of those firearms are a subject of
this indictment, don't you, sir? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Booker - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. No, they are not. Okay.
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And they are, as far as we're concerned they are
not anything that's considered, that's outlined in this indictment that the government has filed against my client or got issued against my client? A. Q. Not that I'm aware of. Okay. You know, do you not, sir, that the only firearm
that my client is charged with is a Sten machine gun? A. Q. That is my understanding. Okay. Yes.
As a matter of fact, we haven't even seen a
photograph of that from your testimony, have we, sir? A. Q. No, we haven't. You've shown us photographs are of how this house looked
and the office, because they were both searched, on June 10th, 2004, correct? A. Q. Yes. And you also showed us what was in the safe in the office
on June 10th, 2004, correct? A. Q. Yes. You understand, you know a, and I hope I get the name
right, and I apologize if I don't, an Inspector Valerie Rowden and Inspector, I think it's Haley McGrew? A. Q. A. Yes. With the ATF? I do know them. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Booker - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. Okay. They are compliance inspectors, right?
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Yes, they are. You understand they had gone to both of these locations,
the office and the house 16, 18 months earlier in February of 2003? A. I knew they had done a compliance inspection, I actually
don't think I realized they went to the house. Q. Okay. More important, we'll let them say where they
went, but you weren't with them, were you, sir? A. Q. No. And you don't know how the house looked or what was
located or disclosed on February 19th of 2003, some 16 some-odd months earlier, do you, sir? A. Q. No. I wasn't there.
And you don't know if any of the firearms that you've
shown this jury were in a safe, in an display case, in a closet or not, do you, sir? A. I don't know where they were 16 months prior to me being
there, correct. Q. Okay. So everything you've shown us is how you know it
was on June 10th, at least when you got there? A. Q. That's correct. Now -MR. MARTIN: (Brief pause) B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603 One moment, your Honor.
Booker - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. (By Mr. Martin)
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Also on June 10th, 2004, when you were
there, did you participate in the seizure of any die stamps? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. At which location? At either of the locations. I don't remember any die stamps being at the office. Okay. Do you remember any being at the house?
I didn't do the house. Okay. All right. And by die stamps, you understand I'm
talking about stamps you put a serial number on with with a hammer? A. Q. I know what you're talking about. I want to make sure -- all right, sir. You didn't do
anything at the basement in the house then? A. After watching the video I do recall I did shoot the
video at the office, then I went to the residence, and then I almost immediately left, because I have very little recollection of that residence. Q. A. Other than what you've seen on the video? Yeah. I went there and shot the video and then I went I basically was involved in the search of
back to the office.
the office and had little to do with the residence at all, short of shooting the video for them. Q. A. Q. Was that a nice dog? He seems fine. Okay. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. KUMIEGA: Q. A. Q. A. Sir, can you introduce yourself to the jury, please? Delbert Knopp. And how are you employed? I'm an investigator with the Oklahoma County District MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: Thank you. Any redirect? No, your Honor.
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Agent Booker, you may be excused, and I
would tell you you're not to discuss your testimony you've given here today with other persons who may be a witness in this matter. You may be excused.
Call your next witness. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, the United States would
like to call Delbert Knopp. DELBERT KNOPP, called as a witness, having been duly sworn, testifies as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION
Attorney's Office. Q. All right. Back in June 10th of 2004, how were you
employed, please? A. As a special agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco &
Firearms. Q. Tell us something about your background. How long had
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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you been an ATF agent before going to the district attorney's office? A. I retied from ATF prior to going to work for the district
attorney's office, and I spent 34 years with ATF. Q. A. And in what capacity, please? As supervisor, special agent, you know, headquarters
officer. Q. Now, you're the case agent in the case of United States
versus Larry Friesen; is that correct? A. Q. That's correct. And what is the case agent, please? What do they do,
please? A. That's the agent that basically manages the case. That
agent completes reports, assembles evidence for prosecution, presents it to the U.S. attorney, works with the U.S. attorney getting ready for prosecution. That -- there may be many
agents involved in the case where they are responsible for certain portions, but you're the overall manager of the case. Q. Now, you saw the videos today from the residence and from
the law office; is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. That's correct. And you were there on June 10, 2004; is that right? In both locations. Yes.
And during the search, during the search warrant, you
seized a machine gun; is that right? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. That is correct. Now, how did you get into the house? Did you get a
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search warrant? A. We had two search warrants, one for the residence, and
one for the house of Mr. Friesen. Q. A. And how were they executed, please? We had two search teams. We went to both locations
pretty much simultaneously. 7:30 in the morning.
We arrived at both approximately
I was at the house when we executed the We attempted
search warrants, other agents were at the office. to make entry to the house.
We went up and knocked on the door
basically and nobody responded and we pretty well determined nobody was there. Shortly after that, we got a call from one
of the agents at the office who told us that Mr. Friesen was at the office. Mr. Friesen. Q. Who accompanied you during the search of the office, After that, I went to the how was and contacted
please? A. I didn't participate in the actual search. What I did is
I went to the office, talked to Mr. Friesen, explained to him that we had a search warrant for both locations, presented him with the search warrant. And I asked him if he had anything,
any firearms that were loaded, anything that would hurt -possibly harm somebody, and if he had any valuables. Q. Let me ask you this: What part of the search warrant did
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you hand Mr. Friesen, please? A. It would have been the search warrant along with the
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attachments to the search warrant, which would include the description of the premises, which would be a photograph and a description, along with an attachment that would contain the items we're looking to search -- seize. Q. You had a list of the items that were, you were looking
for at both locations; is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. That's correct. Can you look at Government's Exhibit 3.1, please. Yes. What is that, please? That's the original video taken by Agent Booker at the
residence of Mr. Friesen. Q. Okay. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, may we display Government's
Exhibit 3.1 into evidence, please? THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: MR. KUMIEGA: THE WITNESS: Any objection, Mr. Martin? You're going to play the video, Ed? No, the photograph. I'm sorry. I was talking about 3.0,
you're talking about 3.1? Q. A. (By Mr. Kumiega) Yes, sir.
That's the actual compact disk, and the -- of the
residence. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. It's 3.1, Mr. Knopp? Right. That's the compact disk made of the video. I think that's 3.01. 3.01. Oh, I'm sorry. Just straight 3.1.
125
THE COURT:
MR. KUMIEGA: THE WITNESS: (By Mr. Kumiega)
That is the residence. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: I have no objection to that, your Honor Is there a series of these photographs? Your Honor, I think it's going to be I think I would like to have Mr. Knopp
MR. KUMIEGA: somewhat disjointed.
explain, but if the Court wants me to introduce the whole 3 series it's going to be 3.1 to 3.16.2. your Honor. THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: out here. Any objection? Your Honor, let me just put some numbers I'm willing to do that,
3.2, 3.3, 3.4, 3.5, 3.11 and 3.11.1, 3.12, 3.13,
3.15, 3.15.1, and 3.16, your Honor, I object based on motions that have been previously filed and heard, and also based upon the earlier objections that were made at the bench as to the 2 series of exhibits. There are some specific objections as to certain ones, your Honor. As they come in I may draw the Court's attention
to more specific ones. THE COURT: I guess we'll go one at a time then, Mr.
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Kumiega. MR. KUMIEGA: (By Mr. Kumiega) Okay.
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Agent, you testified the first location
you searched was a law library, is that correct, for the business; is that right? A. No -- correct. We actually made entry into the business I didn't
first.
That's where I contacted Mr. Friesen.
actually conduct a search of the business. Q. Okay. As to the business, when you handed him the search
warrant and you had a conversation with him as you testified; is that correct? A. Q. That's correct. And you asked him about any firearms that were located in
the law office; is that right? A. Q. That's correct. Tell us how he responded and in what manner, please.
And, again, what time did this start, please? A. It started approximately 7:45. It was probably close to The agents had
eight o'clock by the time I got over there. already made entry.
I contacted Mr. Friesen, gave him the
search warrant with the attachments, and then asked him if there were any, were there firearms and any valuables they he needed to -Q. A. How did he respond, please? He stated that he had a library hidden vault that B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
127
contained firearms, and then he stated he had firearms up in his office, and I accompanied him to his office. At that
location he described where he had firearms up in his office, and opened the drawer to his desk. he took custody of that. He had some cash in there,
And there was an opener for the
hidden vault in the library, and he pointed that out and took that. Q. Can you describe this opener, as you called it, for the Can you explain that to the
vault or for the library shelves? jury, please? A.
It's basically similar to an opener you would use to open
your car door with, electronic opener to unlock the car door or lock the car door. Q. A. Q. A. All right. Did he show you how to operate that device?
He maintained it. Okay. And then from there we went into an adjoining office
where he retrieved a key for the vault itself to open the vault. Q. All right. During the course of the, your first entry,
did Mr. Friesen tell you about firearms that were on the second floor? A. Yes. He pointed out where the firearms were on the
second floor. Q. All right. And would you look at Government's 2.19 in
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 your packet? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. 2.9? 2.19. Okay. Yes. I have that.
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Is that one of the firearms he pointed out to you? No. He simply told me that he had a firearm in there. If you look at Government's 2.21. Did he
All right.
tell you about that too? A. Q. Yes. All right. And did you -- is that part of the photograph
process; is that correct? A. Q. Yes. And did he also tell you about an NFA weapon that was
also upstairs? A. Q. Yes, he did. After you gathered that information, what happened next,
please? A. We went downstairs to the library where Mr. Friesen
opened the hidden library vault, or storage room, with the clicker, and then pointed to the firearms safe that contained firearms. Q. A. Was the firearms safe locked or unlocked? It was locked, and we left the keys with the searching
agents. Q. Who opened the safe? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. I was not there when it actually got opened. Have you seen that safe?
129
I saw the safe closed and I've seen the photographs, and
I've seen the firearms. Q. All right. And how would you describe the safe for the
jury, please? A. It's a typical firearms safe that would hold long guns
and handguns, and probably close to six feet tall and maybe three feet wide. Q. A. Q. And is it heavy or is it light? No. It would be substantial.
Now, you said that -- did Mr. Friesen pull open the door
of the swing panel out? A. Q. A. Q. That's what I said in my report, however, it pushed in. The vault pushed in? Right. What happens after you examined that type of, examined What happened next, please?
the safe behind the bookshelf? A.
Pretty much Mr. Friesen accompanied me back to his house Again, we went through
where he allowed us in the house.
pointing out where the firearms, any firearms were, or any valuables. We first went up to the upstairs bedroom where he
retrieved, again retrieved some cash -Q. A. This is in the residence? This is in the residence. -- and pointed out some
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. firearms in that room. opened the safe. Q. All right. Can you look at Government's Exhibit 3.2,
130
Then we went to the basement where he
please? A. Q. A. Yes. What is that, please? That's the safe in the basement of the residence that Mr.
Friesen opened. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: (Brief pause) MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, as to Government's Exhibit Your Honor, may I have a moment? Yes.
3.1 and 3.2, we would like to have them admitted. MR. MARTIN: suppress, I object. THE COURT: will be admitted. MR. KUMIEGA: (By Mr. Kumiega) That's correct. Do you know the address for the record, please. 524, I think, Northwest 13th if I'm recall. 524 Northwest 17th. I was wrong. If I can Can you display 3.1, please. That's the entrance; is that correct? Objection will be overruled. 3.1 and 3.2 Your Honor, based on my earlier motion to
check my report. Q. A.
That's Oklahoma City; is that correct? That's correct. Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. And the address of the law office, please. 1309 North Shartel, Oklahoma City. Oklahoma City, Oklahoma; is that right? That's correct. Let's look at Government's Exhibit 3.2, please. 3.2 is the safe. All right.
131
During the course of you examining the safe,
did you find a Sten machine gun in there? A. Yes. Mr. Friesen had earlier at the office in reviewing
the search warrant and the items to be seized stated that his -- one of the items -- there were two items on the search warrant to be searched for and seized. One was the Sten with
the serial number E683, nine millimeter submachine gun, and one -Q. A. Was there also a part number? The second one was a Sten nine millimeter machine gun
with a, the D part number listed as the serial number. Q. All right. And did he make any statements to you either
at the law office or at the business regarding the Sten machine gun? A. Yes. At the business he stated that the first one, the
E683 Sten was in his basement safe at his house, and that the second one he had no knowledge of. Q. A. Okay. What happens next, Agent?
In -- as he opens the safe he points to the top shelf of B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. the safe. Q. Stop there. Let's look at the exhibit.
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MR. KUMIEGA: agent a pointer? THE COURT:
Your Honor, may I approach and give the
Yes. Okay. Agent.
(By Mr. Kumiega) Okay.
He points to the top shelf up here (indicating)
and states that's my registered gun, and that's the gun the girls looked at, they were in a hurry and missed the serial number. Q. All right. And did you record that in one of your
reports? A. Q. Yes, I did. If you can look at Government's Exhibit 3.3 and 3.4,
please. A. Yes. 3.3 is the close-up of the two top shelves of that
same safe. Q. A. That's 3.3. And what's 3.4, please.
3.4 is a close-up of the actual top shelf of that safe
containing the Sten submachine gun. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, at this time the United
States would like to move admit Government's Exhibit 3.3 and 3.4 into evidence. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: Same objection. Be overruled. Will be admitted.
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. KUMIEGA: THE WITNESS: Show us 3.3, please. These are the top two shelves.
133
Right
there (indicating) is the Sten submachine gun on the top shelf. Q. (By Mr. Kumiega) Okay. How is it configured at that
point? A. Q. A. It's lying up there with the shoulder stock detached. Okay. And 3.4. What is that, please?
That's the Sten submachine gun, and that's the shoulder
stock to the Sten submachine gun. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, may I approach the agent
with Government's Exhibit 3.16, the actual machine gun, and show that to the jury? THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: Yes. For the record, your Honor, obviously
this was checked by United States marshals and ATF, and it's disabled. Q. (By Mr. Kumiega) Agent, is that the firearm that you
seized on June 10th, 2004? A. Q. A. Yes, it is. And that came from then 3.2, 3.3 and 3.4? Same firearm. MR. KUMIEGA: Yes. Your, Honor at this time the United
States would like to move into evidence Government's Exhibits 3.16. THE COURT: Objection will be overruled. Will be
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 admitted. Q. (By Mr. Kumiega) Now, you seized the firearm at that
134
time; is that correct, sir? A. Q. A. Yes, we did. Okay. What happens next, please?
The -- shortly after that Mr. Friesen left the residence
along with John Nelson who had arrived. Q. All right. Can you look at Government's Exhibits 3.5,
3.6, and 3.7, please. A. Q. A. Yes. And can you identify that for the jury? Yes. That's photographs of that same workroom in the
basement where the gun safe is contained, and these photographs are showing the workbench and items on the wall adjacent to the safe. 3.6 is a closer-up photograph of the workbench just to And then going on towards the, to the
the left of the safe.
left, panning to the left which would be along the north wall of the basement towards the west end of that room is another photograph of the work area, the workbench with cabinets and a TV monitor in the corner. Q. A. You just identified 3.5, .6 and .7; is that correct? That's correct. MR. KUMIEGA: MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: Your Honor, we ask they be admitted. Same, your Honor. Objection will be overruled. They will be
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 admitted. Q. (By Mr. Kumiega) 3.5, please.
135
This is the gun safe with
the -- in the gun room; is that correct? A. Yes. That's the -- that's just backing up in the gun That shows the peg board
room with a wider shot of the room.
on the wall next to the gun safe, the workbench to the left of the gun safe, and then that metal poll that you can see towards the front is a -- some kind of shelving supporting some -Q. A. Can you use the pointer, please, and show us that? This is the workbench next to the gun safe (indicating), This is a poll
this would be the north wall of the basement. with some shelving up in here. continues this way. Q. A. That's 3.6; is that correct? That's correct. MR. KUMIEGA: THE WITNESS: next one. Q. A. (By Mr. Kumiega) Let's look at 3.7. Show that, please. That was 3.6.
And then next photograph
I think 3.7 would be the
And this is just continuing on in that same room with
shelving up high and low, and on the west wall of that room. Q. Okay. Now, when you took the Government's 3.16, that's
the machine gun, did you record either a part number off that or a purported serial number? A. It made it into our inventory as the purported serial B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 number. Q. A. Q. A. All right. And was there also a part number on that?
136
Yes, there was. Can you read that into the record, please. The part number is the number that was on the search
warrant application for the -- one of the machine guns we were looking for, and it's D95843. Q. All right. And then this purported serial number, what
is that? A.
Can you tell the jury where that's located, please?
The part number is located on the bottom of the magazine
well, then the serial number is down here in front of the trigger. Q. All right. And how many inches is the part number from
the purported serial number, please? A. Q. Approximately six inches. Okay. Now, did you have any other conversation with Mr.
Friesen as you are looking at the items in the basement? A. No. Other than -- well, I did. We were aware that he
had a Gatling type gun set up in his residence. Q. A. Explain that to the jury, please. It's -- best I can describe it, it's six receivers and
barrels from a rifle, all mounted in a circular fashion, with a crank on a mount of some sort. Q. A. All right. I never saw the thing.
You got that information from who, please?
Well, I got it from Mr. Friesen, for one. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. What did he say about that? He stated that he thought it had been moved by the
137
workers, and suggested that it may be in the backyard under a tarp. Q. Was it found during the course of the search on June
10th, 2004? A. Q. We never found it. No.
Now, you also seized some physical evidence in that
basement; is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And can you look at Government's Exhibit 3.8, please. Yes. And can you look at the companion photograph of the
physical evidence, 3.8.1? A. Q. A. Yes. What are those, please? Those are -- That's a center punch with numbers and
letters, basically what we call the dies used for punching numbers or letters into metal or some surface like that. Q. A. All right. And what's 3.9 and 3.10, please?
3.9 is the photograph of basically the bar and the
cardroom located just outside the door of the basement workshop, and you encounter it as you come down the stairs. It's in the basement of the house. Q. And 3.10? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Q. A.
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That's a bookcase in that same general area on the south
wall of that little gameroom area with the books and videotapes. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, at this time the United
States would move for the introduction of 3.8, 3.8.1, 3.9, and 3.10 into evidence. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: No objection. Will be admitted. May I approach? Yes. Agent, what is that exhibit, please?
(By Mr. Kumiega) THE COURT:
Which one is that number-wise? 3.8, your Honor.
Excuse me? 3.8, your Honor. That's the actual punch and number set
MR. KUMIEGA: THE WITNESS:
that we found in Mr. Friesen's workroom in one of the shelves. Q. (By Mr. Kumiega) Can you hold it up and display it to
the jury, please? A. Q. A. (Complies) And this was on the outside, just a label.
Can you read that into the record, please? "Auto center punch number and letter, 38-piece set." Then this is the interior. And what's -- you said 3.81, that's a photograph of that;
is that correct? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. A. Q. A. Yes. Now, again, where was that found, please?
139
That was found in the shelving in the northwest corner of
that room that contained the gun safe and all the -- the workroom. MR. KUMIEGA: (By Mr. Kumiega) And would you display 3.9, please? What's that, agent?
That's the card game, or gameroom with the bar and the
shelves containing books and videotapes and other items. Q. A. And 3.10? That's the closer-up view of the shelves containing the
videotapes and books. Q. Okay. Now, other than seizing 3.8, the die set, you
seized some video, a VHS tape and some other paperwork; is that correct? A. Q. A. That's correct. 3.11 and 3.11.1. What are those, please?
3.11 is a videotape that's "How to Build a Sten Mark II
or Mark V from a Kit." Q. A. And what is 3.11.1, please? It's a compact disk copy of a video, VHS "How to Build a
Sten Mark II or Mark V from a Kit." Q. A. Q. Now, did you view the videotape in its entirety? Yes. Did you also view the compact disk 3.11.1 in its entirety B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. that copied the actual VHS tape? A. Q. A. Yes. Did it copy it correctly? It's correct, yes. MR. KUMIEGA:
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Your Honor, at this time we would ask
admission of 3.11 and 3.11.1 into evidence. MR. MARTIN: Your Honor, I object based on search
warrant, the motion to suppress objection. THE COURT: That's 3.11 and 11.1? Yes, your Honor.
Objection will be overruled. Your Honor, if we can dim the lights, I
MR. KUMIEGA:
would like to ask that 3.11.1 be played. THE COURT: Okay. How long is the tape?
It's about three to five.
Thirty-five minutes? No, three to five. We'll only play the
MR. KUMIEGA:
first portion of the tape, your Honor. THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: Okay. Your Honor, since this is not a
narration by an agent, it's audio to go with the tape, we would like to have the audio played, your Honor. THE COURT: Okay.
(Government's Exhibit 3.11.1 played for the jury) (By Mr. Kumiega) Agent, the last part, what was that
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 displayed? A. That displayed a template that can be purchased by
141
individuals, and they place it over the tube and it shows you where to make your precise cuts to manufacture a machine gun. Q. The tube is the machine gun, is that correct, the
receiver? A. gun. Q. Okay. The machine gun that was seized June 10, 2004, was Yes. The receiver with the cuts in it is the machine
that a Mark II or a Mark III? A. That was set up in a configuration of a Mark III. It had
a longer tube, receiver tube. MR. KUMIEGA: on if you want. Q. (By Mr. Kumiega) Mr. Knopp, Government's Exhibit 3.2. Your Honor, we can put the lights back
Have you seen that before, please? A. Q. A. Q. A. 3.2? Excuse me. 3.12.
Yes, I have. Where did you find that and what is it, please? That was in the basement workroom with the safe where the And it was on some shelving just to the
machine gun came from.
west of the door, entry door. Q. A. And what does it purport to be, please? It's ATF Form 4, and attached documents for the transfer B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q.
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of a suppressor, okay, a Sten Mark II submachine gun E683, all to James Howard Bugg in Oklahoma City. Q. A. And the date on that application, please? There is a typed date on the application here of January
29, 2004. Q. All right. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, United States would move for
introduction of Government's Exhibit 3.12 into evidence. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: Same objection, your Honor. Be overruled. Will be admitted.
(By Mr. Kumiega)
Agent, Government's Exhibit 3.13, where
did you find that, please? A. That was found in the same general location on the
shelves in the basement safe room, workroom, with 3.12. Q. A. And what do those document purport to be, please? That's instructions for the manufacture of a machine gun
along with parts orders, a note with parts, different machine gun type parts noted, advertisement for Cobray machine gun replacement parts, several other firearm replacement parts from RPG, another paper for original Cobray machine gun replacement parts. Q. So in toto, Agent, what we have there is you said
instructions for something? A. Yes. Instructions and then there is a handwritten RPG
order form for parts. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Q. All right. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, at this time the United
143
States would move for introduction of Government's Exhibit 3.13 into evidence. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: Same objection, your Honor. Will be overruled. Will be admitted.
(By Mr. Kumiega)
Is there a manual and parts list found
in -- manual and parts list contained in that government's exhibit? A. Q. Yes. All right. Just, can you summarized that for the jury,
please? A. That's a typed instructions for -- it's divided into two It's for the design specifications for a Cobray
sections.
machine gun, the second is a -- instructions for reproducing the machine gun. Q. All right. At this time when you're doing the search
warrant on 6/10/04, Mr. Friesen has three lawfully registered machine guns in his possession according to ATF records; is that correct? A. Q. Well, we only found two. Yes. But the other two, what other two firearms did he
have, please? A. I think one was a Cobray Mac 11, and the other one I
don't recall off the top of my head. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. Would you remember if it was a SWC type machine gun? Yes. Okay. Let's look at page No. 10 of those documents,
144
please. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Okay.
Do you see it on the screen? Yes. What is the significance of the "semi" on the left-side
and "auto" on the right side, please? A. I tould -- it appears to me that the -- they are all
firearms parts that are common, some of them are common with semi-automatics an some are common with full automatics. But
the right-hand part labeled "auto" matches up pretty much with the individual parts available for the Cobray submachine gun parts kit contained in another location. Q. What does semi mean from your experience and what does And could you point it out to
auto mean from your experience. the jury, please? A.
The semi would be a term affiliated with a semi-automatic
firearm. Q. A. What does that mean? Well, semi-automatic hand gun or semi-automatic rifle
where it shoots one round with a pull of the trigger and reloads itself ready for the next pull of the trigger. Q. And the auto, please? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. The auto to me would represent a full machine gun. Okay. Can you point out page 29, it's called a RPB
145
warning, please. A. Yes. On the bottom of that form is a warning that is
notice to the buyer or the person thinking to order this that RPB sells only replacement or spare parts for registered machine guns. We do not sell conversion parts. Federal law
prohibits an individual from converting a semi-automatic weapon to full auto fire. Q. A. Q. And that's hence the conversion part; is that correct? That's correct. And if you look on page 35 and 37. MR. MARTIN: May we approach, your Honor? I have an
objection as to this line of questioning. THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to take
our recess for the afternoon for about 20 minutes, and we'll reconvene the approximately 3:20. I will give you the same
admonitions that I've given you before, do not discuss the case or reach any conclusions until you've heard all the evidence and I've instructed you on the law. All rise while the jury exits. (The jury exits the courtroom, after which the following was had in open court:) THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: Mr. Martin, what's your objection? This last line of questioning about a
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
146
bunch of advertisements that are seized in a search that have nothing to do with this gun and the government cherry-picking a bunch of specialized language that says certain things are violations of that law that have nothing to do with this case is highly prejudicial, totally irrelevant, and it's just a bunch of speculation for the jury to think my client is manufacturing other types of firearms he's not even charged with, your Honor, I object to it. These papers don't have
anything to do, although they were seized during the search warrant, don't have anything to do with this particular firearm, the E683. THE COURT: Mr. Kumiega, what's the relevance? Your Honor, he's been charged with Obviously these
MR. KUMIEGA:
possession of an unregistered machine gun.
documents can aid him in the building of that machine gun. It's highly relevant to his -- the charge in Count No. 5. THE COURT: Is he being charged with anything other Any other
than just having possession of this machine gun? parts?
Is there any records that he's ordered these parts or
have any other parts -MR. KUMIEGA: I think the inference from what the
agent is trying to tell the Court is that when you divide up the documents between semi and full automatic there's an inference that he's building a machine gun, and as the government -- as the grand jury has indicted, Count 5 shows B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that the Government's position is he has an unregistered
147
machine gun, and there are documents to support his building that machine gun, your Honor. It's relevant evidence. THE COURT: So you think he's ordered some of these That's the purpose of this.
things to build this machine gun? MR. KUMIEGA: I honestly don't know. But he has
hand-handwritten, it's not, we have hand-handwritten documents that he's cut out and pasted to a form that shows that he went more than just looking at a document, there is some type of overt act to differentiate between the semi and automatic. Also at this time even back in '86 you can't possess these things. There was a cutoff on this. So I think this tends to
show that he knew that the gun that he had was unregistered, and as the Government's evidence is going to show, he put on the inspectors during the course of the inspection. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: He has -- I'm sorry. Go ahead. He has two, I say he has three, but the
government will admit he has two lawfully owned machine guns. The agent just testified that many of these parts go for a Cobray automatic, which is what my client has and what the government knows he has, your Honor. manufacturing anything. something. He's not charged with
He's changed with possessing
They have no evidence he's manufactured anything.
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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My consultant tells me these parts they are talking about on this chart have nothing to do with the Sten. this is just a big show for the jury. and irrelevant, your Honor. MR. KUMIEGA: I imagine the expert is going to say This is just,
It's totally prejudicial
these parts could be readily converted into a Sten Mark III machine gun, and I believe that's going to be some of the evidence my forensic people can testify to when they look at that list. It's interchangeable, Judge. I'll overrule the objection and assume
THE COURT:
that you're going to get there. MR. KUMIEGA: MR. MARTIN: Yes, sir. Your Honor, if he doesn't I'm going to
ask for an admonishment because he's got a list of -THE COURT: We'll wait and see where he goes and you
can correct some of that on cross-examination, Mr. Martin, or you can clarify it. We'll be in recess until 3:20. Mr. Martin, it would help to have some advance, I don't know what else we have left that you may be objecting to other than the motion to suppress objections. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: I've got -But it would help for the Court to have
some advanced notice where we don't have the jury sitting there waiting. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. MARTIN:
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I've got an email that I sent Ed of all
my objections, your Honor. THE COURT: That would be helpful where I can be
looking at that and we don't have to have unanticipated lengthy bench conferences. MR. MARTIN: I'm sorry. This is the email I sent Ed,
Judge, with all the objections that -THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: All right. I apologize, Judge.
(A recess was had, after which the following was had without the jury present:) THE COURT: Mr. Martin, it's my understanding you
wanted to make a record on an objection to an exhibit that's been admitted. MR. MARTIN: Your Honor, Exhibit 3.13. During the
recess I believe we're in agreement that those, a portion of that exhibit basically starting at Bates No. 2255 through Bates 2283, those are the advertisements and the list of parts and things. My understanding is those part numbers from -- cannot
be used on a Sten, and there's no evidence to support those part numbers, or any parts were ever ordered. And based upon
that and the record that we previously made, I'm asking at least that portion, Bates 2255 through 2283 of Exhibit 3.13 be excluded, and the jury admonished to disregard any testimony about those portions of the exhibit. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: Response, Mr. Kumiega?
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Your Honor, the government's position is
that -- this is the handwritten document where a firearm is broken down from a semi-automatic and an automatic. And the
government's position is that this is his intent to build a gun because you would have too many replacement parts. It's almost
like it's not my gun is broken, I need parts 1, 2, and 4, I have 29 parts here that I would need. And it would seem to
show Mr. Friesen's intent to build a firearm, build an fully automatic machine gun. THE COURT: And what is the government's position as
to how that would relate to the pending charges against him? MR. KUMIEGA: Well, he has -- the government's
position is that he's got an unregistered machine gun in his possession, he placed a serial number on the machine gun after the compliance inspection. That gun was not registered to him,
and it would show his intent under 404(b) that he actively sought out a weapon that was unregistered and he ordered parts, maybe not to build that gun, but he had an intent when it was divided into semi and auto to possess an unregistered machine gun. THE COURT: So is it the government's position that
perhaps they view the unregistered machine gun as one that he could have built the same way? MR. KUMIEGA: Well, your Honor, I think Agent Knopp
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 autos. though? MR. KUMIEGA: I would like to show. introduce, your Honor. this before we start. N29 full, $9.95. Yes, it is. has a better understanding. I believe that's going to be
151
important, because the testimony would be that this is a garage gun. This is the type of gun that you can build if you have
rudimentary knowledge of the machine, how to machine parts, anybody can build a machine gun. And I think we can voir dire
Agent Knopp, or Inspector Knopp -THE COURT: Is that part of the government's theory
And there's one more thing
This is the next one we're going to I would like to have the Court rule on Here toward the end we have firing pin
Now -Is that all part of the same exhibit? Yes. It's all part of the packet. One
THE COURT:
MR. KUMIEGA:
interpretation is that's a Mac 11 nine millimeter, full means full auto, it's a firing pin. Another interpretation that
could be a Sten II, but it's a Mark II, full, 9.95. Now, Agent, what do you say about that? THE WITNESS: I think based upon the documents you've
got, the instructions, it probably goes along with the Cobray Mac 11. MR. MARTIN: THE WITNESS: That he lawfully has. He's got one, plus he's got some semi
This could easily be a conversion kit.
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. MR. MARTIN:
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Your Honor, he has a Mac 11 registered That's a
fully automatic that he's entitled to have. replacement part. THE COURT:
Well, the Court is going to, based upon
what I understand the government's theory in this case is, the Court is going to overrule the objection, and Mr. Martin, you can certainly have ample opportunity both through cross-examination of government witnesses to point out the defendant's theory of the case. I'll overrule the objection.
Let's have the jury brought up, Ms. Youngberg. (The jury was brought into open court) THE COURT: You may proceed, Mr. Kumiega. Thank you, your Honor. Agent, page 35 and 37 of Exhibit 3.13
has a notation for full firing pin; is that correct? MR. MARTIN: MR. KUMIEGA: THE WITNESS: Can you tell me what page number that is? 2282. Yes. The last entry is an item number
58, it's a firing pin for a M11 slash 9 full. Q. (By Mr. Kumiega) Okay. And from your experience, what
does that mean, please? A. Well, it correspond with the replacement part kits for a
machine gun where it says a number 58 firing pin for M11, 9, full or auto, please specify. That would be the firing pin for
a full automatic Cobray machine gun. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q.
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In all fairness, Mr. Friesen has a Cobray machine gun; is
that correct? A. Q. Yes. There are multiple parts, if you go back the next page,
there are other parts associated with a Cobray machine gun; is that correct? A. Yes. He has an order form with three pages, two
completely filled out, and the last page ends up with the firing pin for a Cobray machine gun. Q. A. Q. Okay. These could be replacement parts; is that correct?
Yes, they could. If the machine gun wears out you're going to have to
replace the worn out parts; is that correct? A. Q. That's correct. However, from looking at those three pages, if you can go
back to 1, 2, and 3, is that consistent with a gun that's broken? A. Normally, you wouldn't expect all those parts to break.
Remember, this form is contained with instructions on how to convert a semi-automatic Cobray machine gun to full auto. Q. A. Government Exhibit 3.14. What is that, please?
That is a blue three-ring binder containing firearms
records. Q. A. And whose firearms records, please? For Larry Doug Friesen. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. sir? A. I've got to put this away. Just a second. And where did you receive or seize that item, please,
154
These records were seized from the -- Mr. Friesen's residence in the basement gun, or workroom where the gun safe was on the same shelving with these last two items we introduced. Q. Okay. And that three-ring binder purports to be you say
gun records? A. Q. That's correct. From what dates, please? If you can give the jury a
summary of what that document contains. A. Okay. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, at this time the United
States would ask the Court to admit 3.14 into evidence. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: THE WITNESS: Same objection, your Honor. Will be overruled. This contains several different records.
The first is a list of firearms marked as personal that -- they show there were acquired from January '03 through March 6th of '03. And then the second page again is marked personal, and
they show firearms that were acquired in February '94, through it looks like January '03. And then there's a part, a section This is a firearms acquisition And they
marked description of firearms.
and disposition record for his firearms business.
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
155
contain sporadic dates of acquisition from '93, and the last entry is March 30th of 1997. Q. (By Mr. Kumiega) All right. Now, the inspector,
Inspector Valerie Rowden has examined that exhibit; is that correct? A. Q. Yes. Government's Exhibit 3.15, 3.15.1, 3.15.2. What is that,
please? A. 3.15 is a silencer. It's an AWC Systems Technology
Thundertrap .30 caliber silencer, serial number G-1270. Q. A. Where was that found? That was found in the basement gun safe in one of the
shelves on the door. Q. And 3.15.1 and 3.15.2 are the companion photographs; is
that correct? A. Yes. It's a photograph showing the end of the silencer
barrel and a photograph of the silencer longways. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, the United States a this
time would ask the Court to admit Government's Exhibit 3. 15, 3.15.1 and 3.15.2 into evidence. MR. MARTIN: Your Honor, I object on the motion to
suppress and relevance. THE COURT: admitted. Objection will be overruled. Will be
The pictures are all of the same silencer; is that
correct, Mr. Kumiega? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. THE WITNESS: MR. KUMIEGA: 3.15.2, please. Q. (By Mr. Kumiega) For the record, what is a silencer, That's correct. Can you show 3.15.1 and .2, please.
156
And
please? A. It's a -- it requires a firearm with a threaded barrel,
you put it on the firearm, a semi-automatic firearm and it is intended to reduce the sound of the firearm. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, may the United States
publish the physical item 3.15 to the jury so they can see what the silencer is all about? THE COURT: be sufficient. MR. KUMIEGA: (By Mr. Kumiega) It's heavy. MR. KUMIEGA: jury and display. THE COURT: everybody see it? Q. I think everybody can see it. They can see it. Now, 3.16 is the firearm; is that Can Your Honor, could HE go in front of the Okay. Agent, is it light, is it heavy? I think you can hold it up and that would
(By Mr. Kumiega)
correct? A. Q. Yes. And 3.16.1 and 3.16.2 are photographs of that same
firearm; is that correct? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Direct/Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. MARTIN: Q. Agent Knopp, let's start with that silencer, okay? I Q. A. Yes. MR. KUMIEGA:
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Your Honor, the United States would ask
the Court to introduce 3.16.1 and .2 into the record. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: Same objection, your Honor. Will be overruled. Will be admitted.
(By Mr. Kumiega)
That's the same Sten machine gun that
you showed to the jury before; is that correct? A. Q. A. Yes. And 3.16.1, please? That shows the magazine well attached to the firearm with
the part number D95843. Q. And we have a close-up in 3.16.2; is that correct? MS. WEBB: That's it. Oh, it is. Okay.
MR. KUMIEGA:
Pass this witness, your Honor. THE COURT: You may cross-examine. CROSS-EXAMINATION
think that's Exhibit 3.15, right? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Would you hold that U again? (Complies) My client is not charged with anything relating to that Just hold it up.
silencer, is he, sir? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. No, he's not. There's nothing illegal about his possessing that
158
silencer, is there, sir? A. Q. No, there's not. Okay. No.
And we were talking just before the break, you
were talking about all these order forms that were on the back of, I think -- let me put this back. MR. MARTIN: was page 35. Q. It's 3.13, Bates 2282. Eddy said it
Do you have that, Bonnie.
I think it's the last page. Agent Knopp, the last item there, Item Do you see that?
(By Mr. Martin)
58, firing pin M11 full, 9.95. A. Q. Yes. Okay.
That is a firing pin for a Cobray machine gun, is
that right, or a Cobray semi-automatic; is that correct? A. Q. That's what I believe it to be. Okay. Yes.
You know Mr. Friesen has a Cobray semi-automatic,
don't you, sir? A. Q. Yes, he does. You know Mr. Friesen has a Cobray registered automatic
machine gun, don't you, sir? A. Q. A. Q. Yes, I do. And he can order both those parts, can't he, sir? Sure. And as I understand, conversion kits where you convert a
semi-automatic to an automatic, they are regulated by the ATF, B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 aren't they, sir? A. Q. Yes. And there's three pages of parts here.
159
There's one, two,
three. sir? A. Q. A. Q.
Not one of those parts is a conversion part, is it,
They can easily be used -Not one of those parts is a conversion part, is it, sir? Not something that would be regulated by ATF. Yes.
ATF doesn't regulate one of those 58 parts up there;
isn't that true? A. Q. Not that I'm aware of. No.
As a matter of fact, the companies that make Cobray
firearms, the parts, they've gone out of business and you can't get parts anymore, can you, sir? A. Q. I'm not aware of that, but that's possible. If they go out of business and you can't get parts, you
might want to store up? A. Q. That's possible. Okay, sir. You're the case agent in this case; is that
right? A. Q. That's correct. And I think you described for us that basically that
makes you pretty much in charge of everything; is that right? A. Q. Yes. Putting the case together. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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Now, during this execution of the search warrant, it would be fair to say that Mr. Friesen was courteous, polite, and cooperative, wouldn't it? A. Q. Yes, it would. Okay. As a matter of fact, after you conducted the
search, there were two weapons that you knew he had that you hadn't been able to find and you asked him to find them for you; isn't that true, sir? A. Q. That could be. Okay. I don't recall, but it could be.
Do you recall him helping you did find -- well,
you just don't remember? A. Q. Which weapons are you talking about? One was little pin .22 weapon that was in a display case Do you recall that?
that you all couldn't find. A. Q. I do recall that, yes.
And you came up to him and said, Doug, we've convinced
ourselves you don't have this weapon and you should, and he took you to where it was, didn't he? A. I don't recall that he took me, but I recall that It might have been another agent. I wasn't at the
happening.
office during most of the search. Q. Okay. But you know he helped and cooperated and pointed
out every firearm that they were looking for? A. Q. Yes. Okay. As far as I know. Now, you were talking about the, I believe it's
Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Exhibit 3.16. That's the Sten, right?
161 It's sitting by your
legs I believe. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Would you pull that out for us, please, sir? (Complies). Now, you are familiar with the entire inventory of
everything that Doug Friesen had, correct? A. Q. A. From the search warrants? Yes, sir. Yes. I reviewed the reports and whatnot. I have them
available. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Okay. One. That one right there? Yes. How many Stens does Doug Friesen have registered to him? One. Okay. And I believe -If I might approach, your Honor? You may approach. Let me borrow the firearm for a minute. How many Stens did you find in the search?
MR. MARTIN: THE COURT:
(By Mr. Martin)
You testified that there was a number, a part number on this weapon. A. Q. Do you recall that, sir? But it's not visible. Hopefully I'll be able to --
Yes.
I'm working on that.
Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q.
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I think we showed it on the, one of the last photographs. The part number that I'm talking about though is --
you're familiar where it is, aren't you, sir? A. Q. Yes. Well, let me go over here to you for this. The part
number that you were talking about that, the D number, the D95 number, that's it right there, isn't it, sir? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. That's it. Can you see it?
And can you read it without -That's D95843. Okay. And you're familiar, you've been with the ATF you
said 30-something years? A. Q. Yes. And you're familiar with where serial numbers should be
on a particular part; is that correct? A. Q. That's correct. And a serial number on a Sten machine gun cannot be on a
magazine well, can it, sir? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. well? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603 It's required to be on the frame or receiver. Okay. Yes. Do you know Inspector Haley McGrew? Yes. And do they know a serial number cannot be on a magazine So do you know agent -- Inspector Valerie Rowden?
Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. Yes. They do inspection literally every day? Yes.
163
And they would know that a number on a magazine well is
not a serial number; wouldn't you agree, sir? A. Q. Yes, they do. And so from a standpoint of being an ATF officer, an
inspector, and a special agent yourself, you know this D number that's on this part here, that's called the magazine well, right? A. Q. A. Q. That's correct. You know that number is not a serial number? That's correct. And if I tell you it's a serial number or Mr. Kumiega or
the judge or anybody tell you that's a serial number, you know I'm mistaken, don't you, sir? A. Yes. That's not a serial number that is properly placed
for the -- according to the statutes. Q. Okay. Because by law that serial number has to be on --
this is easier for me to do -- the tube, right? A. Yes. That would be the receiver, the frame or the
receiver. Q. A. Q. And that's this portion right here (indicating)? That's correct. And I heard you testify that there was a serial number on B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 this receiver. A. E683. Q. E683. And that's this number in this area right here Did you testify there was a serial number?
164
There was a number that had been placed on the receiver,
(indicating)? A. Q. A. Q. That's correct. Can you see that number or do I need to -That's the location. I'll try to focus it. You can't see it very well. Well, I'm not very good with this
machine and I apologize. correct, E683? A. Q. A. Q. That's correct.
But that number is right there,
And that number in that location is on the tube, correct? That's correct. And that's where it's supposed to be is on the tube,
correct? A. The serial number is required to be on the tube or on the
receiver. Q. A. Q. And that's where it is on this one? It's on the receiver. And what is the serial number of the Sten that is
registered to Doug Friesen? A. Q. E683. The same number that's on this firearm right here
(indicating)? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Yes. And during the -- I'll give you this back, sir.
165
During the execution of the search warrant you seized from Doug's residence die stamps, right? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And that's Government's Exhibit 3.8. Correct. And these are those stamps, right? That's correct. Do you see those numbers? Yes. What are they? E683. And you'll agree with me, sir, just by looking at those Right?
numbers that those numbers could not have been used to put that serial number on that gun? A. Q. A. Q. That's correct. They are not even close? That's correct. This is the only set of stamps you seized from Doug
Friesen? A. Q. Only set we could find. It was the only set of stamps you seized from Doug
Friesen; is that correct, sir? A. That's correct. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q.
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So the stamps that you seized don't match the stamps on
this Sten? A. Q. That is correct. Now, was Mr. Friesen with you when you went to the
basement to -- of the house? A. Q. Yes, when we made the initial entry. And did he voluntarily unlock the safe for you down
there? A. Q. A. Q. Yes, he did. That would be the safe that the Sten was in? That's correct. And pointed out for you on that top shelf, that's where
the weapon you were looking for was? A. Q. Yes. And there was an attempted transfer or, in approximately
January of 2004 by Mr. Friesen of that Sten to an individual named Mr. Bugg; is that correct, sir? A. Q. That's correct. As a matter of fact, you seize the paperwork relating to
that transfer, correct? A. Q. Yes. Because when you transfer something, a tax has to be
paid, a background check has to be done, and ultimately the transfer of that weapon is either approved or disapproved by the ATF, correct? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. That's correct. And that occurred after the compliance inspection in
167
February of '03, but before the search warrant was executed in June of 2004; is that right? A. Q. That's right. So I think it was January of 2004, so about six months
prior to the execution of the search warrant, the paperwork was prepared; is that right? A. It appears there is several sets of paperwork prepared,
and I'm not -- some were dated in November of '03, some were dated in January. prepared. Q. All right, sir. Were you familiar with whether or not So I'm not sure when it was all actually
Mr. Friesen obtained that paperwork from Valerie Rowden with the ATF? A. Q. I wasn't aware of it, but that's very possible. Now, I believe your testimony was that Mr. Friesen, Doug
told you that when the inspectors saw that Sten, the firearm 3.16, that they were in a hurry and they didn't see or overlooked, words to that effect, the serial number? A. Q. That's correct. Okay. And somehow or another you have a search warrant
that has a number D95-something-something as the serial number, right? A. Yes. We were searching for two Sten submachine guns.
Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q.
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And you found one Sten with the numbers for both machine
guns that you were looking for? A. Well, we were still searching for two machine guns;
however, we did find a machine gun that containing both numbers. Q. Well, you knew, Valerie Rowden told you, did she not,
that the number that she wrote down, the D95843 was on the magazine well? A. Q. A. Yes, she did. So you knew that was not a serial number? I believed it was not a serial number and we went to the
extent of checking it through NFA and found that it was not registered. Q. A. Q. So, yes, I believed it was not a serial number.
Because it was on the magazine well? That's correct. But you asked for a search warrant and obtained a search
warrant to search for a firearm that would have a serial number, a D serial number on the tube where it was supposed to be; isn't that true? A. I didn't specify where it would be; however, that was the
only number that we had to describe one of the Stens we were looking for. Q. Okay. And the Sten that you were looking for was -- had
a D95843 on it, and it had a D95843 on the magazine well, correct? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. That is correct.
169
And the Sten, 3.16, has a D95843 on the magazine well,
correct? A. Now, you're -- yes. The Sten that we have here has a D
number on the magazine well. Q. And you believe today, isn't it true, that that Sten is
the same Sten that Valerie Rowden wrote the D number down on and saw about 16, 18 months earlier in February 19th of 2003, don't you, sir? A. Yes. Her partner Haley McGrew was there during the
search. Q. A. Q. Do you believe that to be the same gun, sir? Yes. Okay. Now, you even went a little further -Your Honor, may I have just a moment? Yes.
MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: (Brief pause) (By Mr. Martin)
After the execution of the search
warrant it didn't end; isn't that right? A. Q. What's that? After the execution of the search warrant you conducted
further investigation? A. Q. Yes. As a matter of fact, you went out and contacted the
person that supposedly made these tubes; did you not, sir? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. Jr.? A. Q. Yes. I met with him at his business premises. Yes, I did. Do you know an individual by the name of Charles Erb,
170
And you've probably talked to him extensively, have you
not, sir? A. Q. A. Q. Talk to him two times. Okay. Yes. Were they extensive conversations? They were fairly extensive.
You talked to him, I can't tell by your report, but looks
like you talked to him -MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: May I approach, your Honor? You may approach. I'm going to hand you a copy of a When did you talk to
(By Mr. Martin)
report, maybe you can refresh my memory. Mr. Erb on that report? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.
I don't believe I talked to him on this report. Does it tell when you did talk to him? That's what I was looking for. Wrong report? -- wrong report. That's why I couldn't find it then. But the way you got to Mr. Erb was you got some records No. I don't think it's.
from the NFA, which is what, the National Firearm -- Ms. Brown -B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Registration and Transfer Record. Yes.
171
You contacted them because you wanted to know where this
gun came from, right? A. Q. Yes. And they provided you, I think it 's called a Form 2, did
they not, sir? A. I was -- at some point I received information that a Sten I think I had that prior
E683 was registered to Mr. Friesen.
to the search warrant, and I knew it was manufactured by Mr. Erb. Q. And did the ATF provide you or did you obtain a Form 2
relating to this and show it to Mr. Erb, sir? A. Q. Yes, I did. Okay. Now, I apologize. I did have the wrong report.
Did you participate in an interview of Mr. Erb on July 8, 2004, July 9th, 2004? A. Q. A. Yes, I did. Okay. I think it was July 9th, 2004, when we actually visited We traveled
the, or it was actually July 8 when we visited. out there and traveled back. Q. Very well.
In the course of that interview did you show
him a Form 2 that he acknowledged to you was the registration for this firearm, did he not, sir? A. Yes. It was a document he submitted to register a series
Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 of firearms that he had manufactured on the same day. Q. Okay. If we take this, and I'll try to -- here's the
172
report, because you had some attachments to the report of things you had showed him, right? A. Q. A. Q. A. Probably. At the back you have all the attachments? Yes. And one of the attachments is the Form 2? I don't know. This looks like a Form 2 that shows the
firearms; however, this is not the one that was in the certification. Q. A. Q. I know. That's the one you showed Mr. Erb, isn't it?
It's possible. Well, look at the Bates numbers, you gave them to me, and
tell me that it's not. A. Q. It probably is. So the Form 2 that you showed Mr. Erb and he identified
as how he registered this gun has previously been introduced into evidence as Defendant's Exhibit No. 100, hasn't it, sir? A. Q. Yes. And that is this form that we've previously talked about Do you
that shows that he registered on April 20, 1986, E683. see that right here (indicating)? A. Q. Yes.
And that's the form you showed him and that's the one he B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
173
acknowledged was the form that he sent to the ATF to register these? A. Yes. I'm not certain at this point whether I got that
from him or that's the one I actually carried out there. Q. Well, that's the one, according to your report, that you
got from the NFA, is it not, sir? A. Q. A. I don't know. I'll have to look here.
Well, you got a form from the NFA, did you not? At some point, yes. Prior to the search warrant we
received it. Q. And you'll agree with me, this form I got from you, that That's a specialized number that's Bates-stamped by
FRI0239.
the ATF, right, or the U.S. attorney's office? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. I got that from y'all? Yes. Let me ask you, sir: Did you not prepare a report that
said that the NFA branch provided you additional information concerning the manufacture of machine guns, Sten machine gun by Charles Erb. Erb has submit documentation to the ATF for the On April 20th,
manufacture of over 400 Sten type machine guns.
1986, Erb filed Form 2 notice of firearm manufacture or import to register 25 machine guns, all described as Sten MKII nine millimeter machine guns with serial numbers starting E676 and ending with E700. Did you not say that?
Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Yes, I did.
174
And April 20th, 1986, correspond with Defendant's Exhibit
No. 100, doesn't it, sir? A. Q. Yes. Not the blue -- certified blue ribbon documents that Ms.
Denise Brown brought in here today and have been introduced under government -- under another exhibit number, right? A. Q. That's correct. As far as you know from your presentation to Mr. Erb,
this is the only form he's ever seen and this is the only one he's ever acknowledged as registering E683; isn't that true, sir? A. He had his own documentation, but that's the form that is That's what we worked off of.
in my report. Q. A. Q.
That's what you showed him? Yes. And Erb's -- excuse me, Mr. Erb's working out of
basically a shop, a garage, isn't he, sir? A. Yes. It's a -- basically a basement shop with his living
quarters above it. Q. And did you take some pictures or have somebody take some
pictures while you were there? A. Q. Yes, we did. In front of you is a defendant's exhibit book, one of
them, let me -- there should be one that says Defendant's B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. tab 51. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: (By Mr. Martin) No objection, your Honor. Will be admitted. Bonnie, would you put up 51, please. sir? A. Q. 51. A. Q. A. Q. No. Exhibits. Very good. You found it.
175
This place doesn't look like Smith and Wesson, does it,
Would you look at Defendant's Exhibit No. 51, under Tab There should be about three exhibits under that tab. Okay. Do you see those, sir? Yes, I do. And are those photographs that were taken of Erb's place
of business while you were out there probably in July of 2004 or sometime thereafter? A. Q. A. Yes, they would have been. And do they accurately represent what you saw that day? Yes. MR. MARTIN: Your Honor, I move for all exhibits under
Now, this is -- the first page of 51 9s
Bates 1489.
Now, is that the sign there, Charles Erb,
Established in 1975, Gunsmith? A. Q. Yes. Okay. And is this the main entrance to his facility?
Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. A. Q. Yes, it is. Okay. MR. MARTIN: Thank you. Q. A. (By Mr. Martin) Now, what is this? Could we go to the next Bates number.
176
That's standing inside the doorway of his shop looking
back out, and it shows some of his machining tools on the left there. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Up here at the top. Right. To the left.
To the left. Looks like two big mixers. Right up here (indicating)? Yeah. Okay. There's one here and one over there?
That's correct. Okay. And there's a bunch of boxes and stuff stacked in
the back; is that right? A. Q. That's right. And if you want some candy for a quarter you can probably
get it right there, right? A. Yes, that's correct. MR. MARTIN: (By Mr. Martin) And could we have it next one, please. And what is this photograph?
This is another photograph of the same area, his B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 machining tools. Q. A. Q. Okay. And that's another tool up there, right?
177
That's the same ones. Okay. All right. And this is generally how Erb's shop
looked; would you agree, sir? A. Yes. Pretty much. There's a long room that you're
looking at there, and then there's a doorway leading to another larger room where he had inventory and some tools. Q. Okay. Now, during the course of your investigation, sir, Did you cause to be obtained for your
let me ask you:
investigation photographs of other Sten tubes or completed guns that were supposedly manufactured by Erb? A. Q. Yes, I did. Would you look, sir, at Exhibit 38, please. Should be
two or three pages to it. A. Q. Yes. Does that appear to be photographs of a Sten serial
number E679 that you caused to be taken and provided to me in discovery actually in this case? A. If these are the ones we provided you in discovery it's
tough to tell by themselves, but what did you say the serial number was? Q. A. At very beginning of that Exhibit 38 it should say E679. Yes. We received photographs, we turned them over to
you, I believe there was probably more of this gun, and I do B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
178
not see a serial number in the ones you have -- you've given me here. Q. Well, the very first picture is a picture of what It's kind
purports to be a serial number, would you not agree?
of hard to read, but that's the picture I got from you. A. Q. A. Q. Oh, yes. Now I can see it. It's kind of faint.
I didn't take the picture, okay? Yes. Okay. MR. MARTIN: Your Honor, I would move for introduction
of Defendant's Exhibit 38. MR. KUMIEGA: your Honor? THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: Is this the discussion we had? Judge, my understanding -- I would like To which -- may we approach the bench,
to talk to you at side bar. THE COURT: All right.
(The following was had at the bench, out of the hearing of the jury:) MR. KUMIEGA: My understanding was he was going to The agent doesn't know.
show Mr. Erb if that's his handiwork.
There is no foundation, this is the rankest form of hearsay. It was part of our investigation and there is no foundation to say who -- Erb can identify it, not Mr. Knopp. understanding in chambers, your Honor. That was my
I think this is a
Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 these? MR. KUMIEGA:
179
different -- it's a different witness sponsoring the document. I understood he was going to cross-examine Erb with it, not Mr. Knopp. It's outside the realm of direct examination in the He's got no knowledge of that. He's just
first place.
presenting the evidence of what happened on June 10th and the attendant circumstances, not the gun. Erb. That's what I stipulated to. MR. MARTIN: them, your Honor. sponsor. I'm not asking him -- I'm introducing He's the That's why we called Mr.
I've got about 20 of them.
I haven't asked him a question about the photographs, I'm not going to. He was there. But
of the gun photographs.
the guns I'm going to get into evidence when Erb is called, I'm going to question him. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: Let Erb handle it. He -That's why I am stipulating. He got it
through several different routes. THE COURT: Will you stipulate to admission of all of
If Mr. Erb is going to testify, sure.
That's what I consented in the back, to have Mr. Erb identify and make his -THE COURT: But he can't identify or authenticate
them, but the agent can, I mean, it's only way he can get them in unless you stipulate to their admission. You either have to
Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Mr. Erb. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: Correct. I'll stipulate. stipulate that they be admitted and authenticate based upon them being pictures taken by ATF agent -MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: Judge, I assumed Mr. Erb --
180
Mr. Kumiega, you can't get them in through
Well, that's what my question is.
Are you
going to stipulate -MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: Yes.
-- that all these pictures would be
admitted based upon them having been taken by ATF agents? MR. KUMIEGA: handiwork. THE COURT: No. Forget Erb. He's either going to If Erb says that looks like his
admit them or not admit them. MR. KUMIEGA: in chambers. THE COURT: So they can all be admitted. You're not I'm not going to go back on what I said
planning on questioning him? MR. MARTIN: I'm going to go through and have him
identify them all as pictures, because I was going to get them admitted and then -THE COURT: admitted -MR. MARTIN: As ATF photographs of those particular So if he stipulates they can all be
Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 unfair? Erb. THE COURT: We're not talking about -now? THE COURT: admitted. MR. KUMIEGA: Yes, if he stipulates they can be issue. weapons -THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: so they know. THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: We'll do it before you use them. Then you don't need Mr. Knopp.
181
I would like an announcement to the jury
I've got ATF reports, your Honor, that
will say that's what they are, if I have to. THE COURT: Okay. But you're not going to use them
until Mr. Erb comes up; is that right? MR. MARTIN: I don't plan on it unless it becomes an
I think I'm entitled to do it the way I'm doing it. THE COURT: Well, but we can save 30 minutes if he
stipulates to it. MR. MARTIN: I understand, Judge. Can we admit them
I'll stipulate to admitting them through
MR. KUMIEGA:
I'll do whatever the Court wants, but I
think it's unfair because -THE COURT: Wait a minute, Mr. Kumiega. What's
To admit them? MR. KUMIEGA: No.
Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 object? MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: Through Erb I will. Erb THE COURT: Okay.
182
Then they are going to be admitted.
You don't need to question Mr. Knopp about them, right? MR. MARTIN: I would like to ask him a wholesale
question where were these pictures taken. THE COURT: Why -- do you object? You're going to
But Erb can't do it, Mr. Kumiega.
doesn't know who took the pictures. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: That's the whole point of it. It's not
Let's don't do it one by one.
unfair if you're going to stipulate. MR. KUMIEGA: But the only person who can say this He
looks like my handiwork is the manufacturer, not Mr. Knopp. doesn't know. THE COURT: different things. Mr. Kumiega, you're talking about two We're talking about how you use them, and How Mr. Martin uses the
that's what Mr. Erb's testimony.
pictures, all I'm concerned at this point is that they be admitted. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: Fine.
Whether Mr. Erb, whatever he wants to say
about them, he can't say anything unless they are admitted. And you can't admit them through Mr. Erb without either a pure stipulation on where they came from. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Judge. (The following was had in open court:) (By Mr. Martin) MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: And I will do that.
183
So you're going to do that right now? I was going to do it through Erb.
MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: authenticity. MR. KUMIEGA:
Mr. Kumiega, Erb can't testify to the
How can the agent testify?
He's just
got people scattered and bringing back investigative reports. THE COURT: Because you're stipulating that's what
happened and he seems to know, that's how. MR. KUMIEGA: It does, but he doesn't know, the gun is
not here for the jury to look at. THE COURT: It's not guns, we're admitting pictures.
If you want to go through all those -MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: Real quick. -- real quick, say did you take these
pictures or are these pictures that were taken by FBI or ATF. MR. MARTIN: I'll ask him three real quick questions,
Agent Knopp, if you would, quickly, or
take such time as you need, look at Exhibits 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, and 50. A. Q. A. Thirty-eight through 50, you say? Actually 38 through 52. Looks to me you have a combination of photographs here. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Some of these I didn't take and wasn't present. Q. A. Were those pictures taken by ATF agents, sir? Yes. It's hard to match these up without ours here
184
because I think you're missing some. Q. A. Q. sir? A. Q. Yes, I believe they were. And as case agent you were responsible for directing that Well -But in general. The ones that are present, were they taken by ATF agents,
that be done, correct, sir? A. Yes. Actually I asked Tim Kelly to do this and he
accomplished it and then this was the results. Q. Okay. So those were pictures that were taken by someone
of the ATF of various different firearms; is that correct? A. Yes. We sent out formal requests for people to contact
individuals on this list of firearms manufactured by Erb, and asked them to take photographs. basically. Q. And Exhibit 50 is a photograph of some die stamps that And this is the result,
Erb had; is that not correct, sir? A. Yes. That's a photograph that we took on our second trip
to visit Mr. Erb. Q. Okay. And Exhibit 52 are photographs that were taken of
Sten tubes; is that correct, sir? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A.
185
There again, that would not be the first trip, that's the
second trip. Q. A. Q. But those are Sten tubes, the tubes, right? Yes. Okay. MR. MARTIN: Your Honor, I would move -- I believe I will move admission of
Exhibit 51 has been admitted.
Defendant's Exhibit 38 through 52. MR. KUMIEGA: We'll stipulate per our bench
conference, your Honor. THE COURT: admitted. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: (Brief pause) MR. MARTIN: (By Mr. Martin) Bonnie, could you put up Exhibit 50? Exhibit 50 that's been put up here is a May I have just a moment, your Honor? Yes. Okay. Thirty-eight through 52 will be
copy of the die stamps that Erb produced to you; is that correct, sir? A. Q. That's correct. And those were never submitted to any laboratory for any
examination for comparison to the Sten E683 sitting behind you, was it, sir? A. At the time we took that photograph we had the E -- the
Sten with us, and it was obvious that those stamps weren't B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 anywhere close to that. Q. A. Q. A. Now can you answer my question? No, it was not submitted to a laboratory. Okay. And when was this photograph taken?
186
That would have been on the -- our second trip out to see
Mr. Erb. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. What -What date? Yeah. I believe it was 2006 at some point. 2006? Yes. 1996, 1988, so those stamp are at least 20 years old. Is
that what you're telling me? A. I asked him to produce the stamp that he would have used
and this is what he showed me. Q. A. Q. Those stamps are at least 20 years old? That would be my assumption, yes. And he makes thousands and thousands of firearms; would
you not agree, sir? A. Q. A. I'm sure he does. Probably tens of thousands if not thousands of thousands? I couldn't put a number on it. I believe it was at least
500 or so Sten guns that he made. Q. And he only has one set of stamps. Is that your
Knopp - Cross/Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. KUMIEGA: Q. testimony? A.
187
That's the stamps he showed me that he said that he had I don't know if he has other stamps, but
available for that.
that's what he said he had available. Q. sir? A. Q. Yes. And this is also the record that he told you that he And it's your belief he'll be here to testify, isn't it,
registered those under Defendant's Exhibit 100? A. Q. Correct. Okay. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: Nothing further, your Honor. Redirect? Yes, your Honor. REDIRECT EXAMINATION
MR. KUMIEGA:
Mr. Knopp, the first question, one of the first series of
questions Mr. Martin asked you was about the "D" number on the magazine well; is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Can you show again the jury where that is? That's approximately right there (indicating). Okay. And part of the questioning is whether that ATF
knows that the part of the magazine where a number is will not be the serial number; is that correct? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Repeat that. That the "D" number because it's on the magazine well
188
cannot be a serial number? A. Because it's on the magazine it would not be a -- it No. ATF
would not be an acceptable serial number. Q. Okay.
And ATF would know that; is that correct?
knows that; that's part of their regulations? A. Q. Yes. And let me ask you this: Somebody who has at one time
the ability to buy and sell machines with this SOT, they would know that also; is that correct? A. Q. I would certainly assume so. And, again, the E serial number, the E683, is just you
said six inches away from the D part number; is that correct? A. Q. Yes. Next question was about the stamps. You seized some
stamps at Mr. Friesen's residence; is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes. And did you submit them for testing? No. Why not? They obviously weren't stamps that were used to place the
E683 on the Sten gun in question that we have that we seized. We just took them because they showed that he did possess stamps and likely used them at one point. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Q. A. Q. Can you look at Government's Exhibit No. 10, please. Yes.
189
Do you see on the first page there is two photographs of Do you see that?
Bates stamp 1887? A. Q. Yes.
And on the second page on Bates stamp 1888; is that
correct? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. It's a closer-up shot.
At the top page? Yes. Okay. And do those photographs accurately reflect the
number E683 on the Sten machine gun and Government's Exhibit 3.16? A. Yes, they do. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, at this time the United
States would move for introduction of the ten series. MR. MARTIN: to object. THE COURT: admitted. MR. KUMIEGA: (By Mr. Kumiega) Will you please display the photographs? Is those the photographs of the E683 Objection will be overruled. Will be Your Honor, because of my motion I have
serial number, the supposed serial number? A. Yes. That's the photograph of the E683 number that was
on the Sten that we seized and submitted to the lab. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Okay. The bottom picture, that's the number on the
190
bottom of the receiver; is that correct? A. Q. A. Yes. Sure. That's this number right here (indicating) with the E Can I show?
being closest to this trigger housing. Q. And if you could look at the next page on the top Bates
stamped 1888. A. Q. Yes. Is that the serial number that's placed on the firearm
that you seized on June 10th of 2004? A. Q. Yes, it is. The inspectors on that day, back in February of 2003,
they were looking for a serial number on that gun; is that correct? A. Q. They were looking for the Sten E683. Okay. Yes.
Now, one of the questions that Mr. Martin asked
you was the reason you did not take Mr. Erb's stamps is because why when you went out there back in '06, I guess in November of '06? A. Because the -- we had the gun with these numbers, and the
stamps he displayed to us were obviously to small to be those stamps. Q. Okay. Now, during the course of your investigation, you
gave a form or attached a form to one of your reports that Mr. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Martin introduced as his Defendant's Exhibit 100; is that correct? A. Q. Yes.
191
Is there a difference between the numbers in that form
and the one in the certified copies that we introduced early in part of the trial? A. They contain the same numbers; however, they've got a X
behind each. Q. Have you come across in your investigation any duplicate
serial numbers in the course of this investigation in the E series by Mr. Erb? A. No. The firearms we looked at or asked agents to look at
contain the numbers that are on Mr. Erb's application for manufacture. Q. The gun in question, 3.16, then has the purported serial
number E683 and a part number; is that correct? A. Q. Yes. Agent, when you went out to do the search on June 10,
2004, the affidavit articulated two different types, two types of guns you were searching that day; is that correct? A. Q. That's correct. And why was that put in the affidavit, or the Court's
order, please? A. Because based upon our investigation we believed that Mr.
Friesen did receive an Erb Sten machine gun with serial number B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Redirect/Recross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. MARTIN: Q. 683. Q.
192
That was the one manufactured back in, or manufactured
but purchased in February of 1996, right? A. That's correct. However, during the inspection, the So we were searching to
inspector did not find that firearm.
see if we could find it, and then we also identified the Sten with the D part number which we believed to be the only number on the Sten that they actually saw. Q. All right. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: No further questions, your Honor. Recross? Yes, sir. RECROSS-EXAMINATION
The D number that was written down, Doug Friesen didn't
write that number down, one of the inspectors wrote it down, right? A. down. Q. So one of the inspectors wrote that number down. And I Yes. They maintained the work sheet that they wrote it
believe your testimony was that the D number is six inches away from where the other number is; is that right? A. Q. Approximately, yes. Okay. Now, you seized from my client a bunch of Would that be fair to say?
firearms.
Knopp - Recross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 witness. MR. MARTIN: He's not answering, Judge. A. Q. A. 14. Q. Okay. Pardon me. But you didn't seize one die stamp I believe we seized 12 out of the vault. Okay. Plus the Sten gun and the silencer.
193
So that would make
from Erb? A. Q. No. And you didn't go back and say I don't want just the ones
you have, I want every die stamp you have so I can compare them to that gun; is that true, sir? A. Q. A. Q. I asked to see the die stamps -No, no. Is that true, did you seize one?
No, I didn't take any. You have the authority to get a search warrant to get
every one he had, didn't you, sir? A. If I thought I had probable cause. At that point I don't
think we did. Q. A. Q. A. Q. You could have asked him for them, couldn't you, sir? Yes. But you didn't? I asked him to -No. You didn't ask him for every die stamp he has? Objection. He's arguing with the
MR. KUMIEGA:
Knopp - Recross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: Objection will be overruled.
194 Let him have
time, to answer, Mr. Martin. Q. (By Mr. Martin) Did you ask him to give you every die
stamp he had? A. I thought at the time that's what we were looking at. He
might have had some more he didn't tell me, but I don't know. I didn't search his premises so I don't know. Q. A. Q. So the answer is no? It could be yes, it could be no. Okay. I just don't know.
And you just told Mr. Kumiega that you are aware
of no evidence of ever being any duplication of any E numbers by Erb, didn't you, sir? A. I told him -- I think what I told him, I may be wrong,
but was that those -- when we sent though agents out looking at those numbers off that form, they didn't find any duplication, they found the firearm with the serial number. Q. You're aware of the term exculpatory evidence, are you
not, sir? A. Q. Yes. And you're aware that I have been provided substantial
amounts of evidence relating to possession, relating to duplication of serial numbers by Mr. Erb, aren't you, sir? A. The documents that were released to you I looked through
them, and there was -Q. Are you aware of that or not, sir? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Recross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Yes. Yes.
195
And you're aware that in the documents that were produced
to me, Mr. Erb on various occasion has been investigated by the ATF for having duplicate serial numbers on firearms? MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: THE WITNESS: don't know how many. Q. one? A. Q. This particular firearm? This one right here (indicating). You don't know if (By Mr. Martin) Okay. And you don't know if this is To which we object, your Honor.
Will be overruled. I think there's several instances. I
E683, is one also, sir? A. If that is a duplicate, no. All I know is that he
applied to manufacture that gun and it was subsequently transferred to different dealers and then to Mr. Friesen, and we followed the paper trail. Q. Where did this paper trail take you, the one that was
initiated on April 20th of 1986, because Debra, excuse me, Denise Brown didn't bring any paperwork on this one? A. Q. Right. Apparently from my review of --
You don't know; isn't that true? MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: Well, Judge --
Let him answer. I apologize, your Honor.
Knopp - Recross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: From my review of the documents you
196
referred to earlier, it appears that this document was denied by an inspection and it was approved after he machined his receivers, is what I got out of it. Q. (By Mr. Martin) Did you hear Ms. Brown testify this
morning that you file these, there is no denying or approving it, that's a filed document, it's an ATF official document, you got it and you showed it to Erb; isn't that true? A. Q. Yes. And you're aware then that on multiple occasions Erb has
duplicated serial numbers on firearms? MR. KUMIEGA: multiple. THE COURT: THE WITNESS: Will be overruled. From -- again, I've looked through those Objection to misstating the facts,
documents, and there was several occasions, but not more than just a few as far as I could see. Most of what that, those
documents referred to was inspectors went out and found tubes with serial numbers, but the cuts hadn't all been finished. Q. (By Mr. Martin) And the serial numbers had also been
sold to other people? A. Q. On at least one occasion. Somebody had a gun in their possession with a serial
number on it like that E683, and they found a tube at Earl's, excuse me, Erb's shop with E683, and I'm using that for B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Recross/Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. KUMIEGA: Q. purposes of illustration, with that stamp on it; isn't that true, sir? A. That's my understanding.
197
Both of them had serial numbers
stamped by Mr. Erb. Q. So the statement that you aren't aware of duplication
means you're not aware of any duplication of the few guns y'all all looked at? A. Q. That's correct. And you're also away, are you not, sir, that the
investigation that you and I are talking about of Erb related to the firearms that were manufactured between April of 1986 and May 19th of 1986. A. Q. Yes. Isn't that true?
They were the firearms made prior to the ban.
And this firearm was right in that category; isn't that
true, sir? A. Yes, it would have been. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: Nothing further. Redirect? Just briefly, your Honor. REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Agent, the -- in the search warrant affidavit you were
looking for a serial number for a firearm that did not have a serial number; is that correct? A. That is correct. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Redirect/Recross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. MARTIN: Q. Did you ever consider that maybe the inspectors just Q. There is no duplication, either the serial number was
198
there or wasn't; is that correct? A. Q. That would be correct. And the D part number was the reference by the
inspectors; is that correct? A. That's the only number they could come up with on the
firearm they looked at. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: Nothing further, your Honor.
Anything further? Very briefly, your Honor. All right. RECROSS-EXAMINATION
missed the number like Doug said? A. Certainly, I talked to them at length in preparing the
affidavit, and they were -- I've known these inspectors for many years, I know they very thorough and they do a good job. And we went over it, they did not see a serial number. When I
found this gun the serial number looked very odd, and we continued our investigation. Q. A. Q. Did they say they used magnifying glasses? No. As a matter of fact, in their inspection they found other
guns that didn't have serial numbers that were covered by B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603
Knopp - Recross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 paint, didn't they, sir? A. Q. I don't believe they did. I'll question them about that. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: Nothing further. Agent Knopp, you may retake your seat.
199
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this appears to be a good stopping point, and we'll reconvene -- I've lost track of the days. Is tomorrow Thursday? We'll reconvene on Thursday And I would
morning at 10 a.m., and start promptly then.
advise you again to not discuss the case or reach any conclusions until you've heard all the evidence, and also to not do any reading or investigating or listening to anything that deals with the subject matter of this case or this case. Also I think I forgot to mention when we, maybe I mentioned it, but just in case I didn't, when we take a break or we end, take a break during the day or we end for the day, don't stop in the hallway here or the restroom or anything, go straight back down to the jury assembly room. just tell you again. Did I tell you that? Okay. I'll
So with that, have a good evening, enjoy
the rest of this pretty day and we'll see you in the morning at 10 a.m. JUROR: I have a question. Yes, ma'am.
THE COURT: JUROR:
As far as our notes, do we leave them here? Leave them here, Ms. Youngberg will
THE COURT:
200 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603 I hereby certify that the aforegoing is a correct transcript from the record of the proceedings in the above-entitled matter. __________________________ B. Jeanne Ring, RDR REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE collect them and lock them up. even your fellow jurors. So nobody will see them, not
Just leave them in your seat.
(The jury exits the courtroom, after which the following was had in open court:) THE COURT: We'll be in recess until ten a.m.
Anything further today, Mr. Martin? MR. MARTIN: Does that mean we need to see you at 9:30
to tell you all the problem we're having? THE COURT: worked out. Who is your next witness, the two compliance inspectors? MR. KUMIEGA: Haley McGrew. THE COURT: We'll be in recess until ten a.m. * * * * * Yes, your Honor. Valerie Rowden and I'm assuming we got most of those problems

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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Plaintiff,

vs. LARRY DOUGLAS FRIESEN,

Case No. CR-08-41-L

introduced, not introduced, things like that.

The defendant in this case, Mr. Friesen, has entered a

You can and are permitted to take notes, you'll On

be permit to use those notes in your jury deliberations.

you take notes or don't take notes, that matter.

11 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. MARTIN: Yes, your Honor, subject to the -- what

moment to get some charts out. THE COURT: Sure.

the Assistant U.S. Attorney that's prosecuting this case.

three-year period of time or less.

unregistered machine gun.

There will be testimony about

However, when the inspectors went out there on February

Well, in truth and fact when they did the search

arrest, they are having a conversation.

Pennsylvania, or around there.

is an indication of what type of gun it is.

This is the chromosomes.

tell if a gun is registered to somebody or not.

course of the inspection.

And the United States believes that

layer of coat on there, of paint.

find the firearm that now has a serial number.

told you the other day, I'm Mack Martin.

you would call a firearm enthusiast.

World War II.

If they are manufactured by then you

Mr. Erb in Fredericktown, Pennsylvania, is

registrations for this gun.

Two ATF inspectors showed up unannounced and Well, as you might

said we want to expect your firearms.

across a Sten firearm.

They will tell you they didn't find a

And they wrote that down as the serial He

Doug may have told them it was the serial number.

And because of that, unknown to Doug, in their

serial number on the firearm, E683. there's one on there.

Hard to see in bad light.

the basis of why we are here.

Mr. Friesen -- Agent Knopp will

And yeah, I duplicated some of the serial

That's the only one I've every had.

every firearm they were looking for was stored.

safe in his basement, and yes, it was a gun safe.

would like to call Denise Brown.

I'm employed by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms

please? A. Yes. During the course normal of my business I search

Can you tell the jury what type of firearms the

And you said you've been doing this

Brown - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to compile these records? A.

Over the years it has been on-the-job training within the

You, since you've been doing this for 20 years or

correct? A. That is a $200, yes, for the short-barreled shotgun and

And that is registered then within the registry; is that

This document would contain information on the Special

What does that purport to be, please?

Firearms Act branch.

collected the tax and maintained the registry on that.

she got -- it's a record.