The debate on the need for a secretary for state for Wales , this is the winding up speech by Nye

Bevan, the whole debate is at. http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1946/oct/28/wales and monmo!thshire white paper yo! will note e"en then #1946$ it was de"ol!tion% &cotland% and the welsh lan'!a'e. (ye m!st ha"e been a pyschic % some of his forecasts ha"e become oh so tr!e.

)b*The +inister of ,ealth #+r. -ne!rin .e"an$)/b* We ha"e had a most interestin' /ebate. 0 ha"e listened to the whole of it% e1cept for one absence lastin' 22 min!tes. 3n the whole% 0 think that the /ebate has been amply 4!stified. 0t was an e1cellent thin' that we had it% not only to show the stren'th of the 5o"ernment6s position% b!t the weakness of the critics6 position as well. +y hon. 7riends ha"e spoken with their c!stomary elo8!ence% b!t not with their c!stomary co'ency. 0 confess that 0 ha"e ne"er risen to speak in the ,o!se of 9ommons with a 'reater sense of disad"anta'e% beca!se% frankly% there is not "ery m!ch of a case to answer. +y hon. 7riend the +ember for :ast ;hondda #+r. +ainwarin'$ 8!oted from a <abo!r =arty doc!ment% and 8!oted as tho!'h those who sit on the 7ront .enches on this side of the ,o!se are not carryin' o!t what they p!t in that doc!ment at that time. The fact is that that is precisely what we are doin'. :"ery syllable of that doc!ment is now bein' carried o!t. There is a Minister in charge of the development areas, the President of the Board of Trade, and we have carried out in the last 15 months a greater degree of devolution than has ever been carried out in the history of this country. The Ministry of Health have established, in the course of the last year or so, a very large regional organisation. b!"Mr. #. $. %avies &b! 's it the Minister(s intention to attempt to persuade the House that the devolution which has been carried out has not been placed entirely in the hands of the non)elected representatives* b!"Mr. Bevan &b! The hon. Member confuses himself much more than he confuses the House. +e were spea,ing about e-ecutive devolution. .o one has so far suggested elective devolution. +hat we have been spea,ing about is machinery to try to see to it that the policies of the /overnment are given e-ecutive drive at the regional level. b!"Mr. /renfell &b! 0pon whom have they been devolved*

b!"Mr. Bevan &b! They have been devolved on regional officers, regional directors and civil servants, because these are the e-ecutive agents of the /overnment. )b*>+r. 5renfell)/b* 0rresponsible elements. )b*>+r. .e"an)/b* +y hon. 7riend cannot contain himself. 0f the ar'!ment is to be that we sho!ld ha"e electi"e re'ional a!thorities% there is an ar'!ment for that% b!t it has not been ad"anced toni'ht. )b*>+r. 5oronwy ;oberts)/b* 0 ad"anced the ar'!ment for electi"e de"ol!tion% and 0 drew the distinction between b!rea!cratic dele'ation and democratic de"ol!tion. )b*>+r. .e"an)/b* 0f my hon. 7riend will permit me% 0 was abo!t to pay my respects to what 0 tho!'ht was a "ery tho!'htf!l speech. There is a 'reat deal to be said for considerin' the whole field. 0ndeed% it is ob"io!s that as the 5o"ernment more and more inter"enes in economic affairs% we may ha"e to reconsider the whole str!ct!re of local 'o"ernment% and consider whether any new constit!tional de"ices are necessary in order to p!t into the hands of elected persons at the re'ional le"el the obli'ation to carry o!t a 'ood deal of 5o"ernment administration. There is a lot to be said for that. 0 am not at the moment committin' the 5o"ernment. 0 am merely thinkin' alo!d on the /ebate which has 4!st occ!rred. 0t m!st be ob"io!s to e"erybody who has e1amined this problem% that we sho!ld ha"e to consider what will be the effect on local 'o"ernment of many of the chan'es which are now takin' place% and will take place in the co!rse of the ne1t few years. .!t that is not the iss!e which has been p!t in the /ebate toni'ht. 0 want to separate the iss!es which ha"e been p!t% into their proper parts. 7irst% there is the economic ar'!ment. +y hon. 7riends from Wales will not% 0 know% ass!me that 0 need to ha"e this ar'!ment impressed !pon me. 3ne of my hon. 7riends said that he and the &o!th Wales +embers had been li"in' with this problem since 194?. Well% 0 ha"e li"ed with it e"er since 0 was a boy. 0 ha"e probably spent as m!ch of my life handlin' this problem as any +ember in the ,o!se. When 0 ret!rned to &o!th Wales from the 9entral <abo!r 9olle'e% in 1921% 0 fo!nd my area pl!n'ed into !nemployment. +y first 4ob when 0 'ot back was to help to di' a main for a 'as works% which had two ob4ects one to pro"ide the main% and the other to pro"ide eno!'h stamps on my card to 'et !nemployment ins!rance benefit. -t that time we were not entitled to !nemployment benefit !ntil we had made a certain n!mber of contrib!tions. We shared the pipe line. (e"er in the history of mankind did so many people lay so few pipes. 0t was not

so m!ch a piece of work% as an ante room to the employment e1chan'e% thro!'h which a n!mber of people were able to obtain !nemployment ins!rance benefit. -s 0 say% 0 ha"e li"ed with this problem. 0 ha"e helped% on more than one occasion% to or'anise h!n'er marches. &o 0 do not need to ha"e the reality of these impressions forced !pon me. When 0 went to -merica and 9anada in 19?4% 0 saw in city after city men and women with whom 0 had 'one to school% who had been dri"en o!t of Wales. (ot only had they been dri"en o!t of Wales% b!t they had been dri"en o!t of /!rham% &cotland% (orth!mberland% and <ancashire. They had been dri"en from their nati"e co!ntry. They were the modern @wild 'eese%@ ha"in' to seek their li"elihood in other co!ntries beca!se their own had ne'lected their welfare. 0 saw all that% and 0 am deeply conscio!s of the an1ieties which Welsh +embers feel. They wo!ld be doin' less than their d!ty if they did not raise a cry at this moment% both here and in Wales% and tried with all their power% to pre"ent a res!mption of those tra'edies. 7!rther% 0 a'ree with the noble <ady the +ember for -n'lesey #<ady +e'an <loyd 5eor'e$% that there is a "ery 'reat sense of !r'ency abo!t this matter% beca!se Wales does not want to lose any more of her yo!n' men. That is one of the reasons why the 5o"ernment ha"e de"ised this temporary plan by which yo!n' men and women who are !nable to find employment are to 'o elsewhere on the strict !nderstandin' that when work is a"ailable they will ha"e the first claim to it. )b*>+r. +ainwarin')/b* The n!mber who ha"e left Wales this year is abo!t 12%222. <ess than one third ha"e 'one !nder the temporary transfer scheme% b!t a far 'reater n!mber ha"e 'one permanently. )b*>+r. .e"an)/b* We cannot pre"ent that% b!t% in any case% my hon. 7riend has not 'ot the correct fi'!re. )b*>+r. +ainwarin')/b* .!t co!ld the +inister tell !s what is the distinction between temporary and permanent transferA )b*>+r. .e"an)/b* Temporary transfer is the one by which a man is re'istered with the employment e1chan'e at his home and is not pre4!diced by the fact that he is away% when work becomes a"ailable. )b*>+r. +ainwarin')/b* The same e1chan'e offers a 4ob to two men. 3ne is permanently transferred% and one is temporarily transferred. WhyA

)b*>+r. .e"an)/b* The hon. +ember knows the distinction "ery well. We are hopin' that when the works are established% a person who is transferred !nder a partic!lar scheme and has identified himself% will% therefore% ha"e a claim !pon a 4ob when the 4ob is a"ailable. 0 entirely a'ree that it wo!ld be a tra'edy for Wales% for the c!lt!re of Wales% and for the "itality of Wales% if we lost many more of o!r people. 0t is no !se speakin' abo!t a nation if yo! are contin!ally debilitatin' its spirit!al and physical life by takin' away its yo!n' men and yo!n' women. They m!st be preser"ed% and maintained there% if the nation is to ha"e a contin!in' e1istence. 1urthermore, ' have always been very proud and very 2ealous of +elsh culture and +elsh institutions. ' would remind my hon. 1riends from .orth +ales and Mid)+ales that the culture and cultural institutions of +ales do not belong entirely to .orth +ales or Mid)+ales. There e-ists in the 3nglish)spea,ing populations of Monmouthshire. /lamorganshire, and some parts of 4aernarvonshire, a culture as rich and profound as that which comes from the +elsh spea,ing people of .orth +ales. There is too great a tendency to identify +elsh culture with +elsh spea,ing. 't has been my happy lot, in more than one place, to give encouragement and help to the 3nglish spea,ing +elshmen, and they have made very great contributions. +hat some of us are afraid of is that, if this psychosis is developed too far, we shall see in some of the 3nglish spea,ing parts of +ales a vast ma2ority tyrannised over by a few +elsh spea,ing people in 4ardiganshire. My hon. 1riends must not assume that there is universal 2ubilation. There is, in some parts of +ales, a very considerable amount of an-iety. ' suppose that one is entitled to regard Monmouthshire as a part of +ales. 'f you go round the valleys of Monmouthshire, you will find a great deal of dis5uiet about some of these new developments, because of the ne-t stage of this slippery slope. There is first a #ecretary of #tate for +ales, and because he is #ecretary of #tate for +ales he must be a +elsh)spea,ing, +elsh)writing +elshman. b!"Mr. #. $. %avies &b! +hy not* b!"Mr. Bevan &b! 4ertainly6spea,ing in terms of political ambition. But there is a large body of +elshmen who cannot spea, +elsh, and they would immediately be dis5ualified. #ome of our nationalist 1riends are ma,ing an enclave. They are see,ing a closed mar,et, and ma,ing 5uite sure that, if there is to be a #ecretary of #tate for +ales, he shall be +elsh)spea,ing and +elsh)writing. 't would not stop there. 't is one of our an-ieties that if this thing develops further, all the civil servants appointed would have to be +elsh)spea,ing, +elsh)writing +elshmen. +hat is the demand* The demand is7 How can they understand the peculiar difficulties, distinctions, and characteristics, the penumbra of .orth +ales and Mid)+ales, unless they can spea, the language of the people* The result, of course, is that the whole of the 4ivil #ervice of +ales would be eventually provided from those

small poc,ets of +elsh)spea,ing, +elsh)writing 8ealots, and the vast ma2ority of +elshmen would be denied participation in the government of their country. That is e-actly where some of these people are getting. ' could give instance after instance to show that. 'n fact, ' could show %epartment after %epartment where it is absolutely impossible for Monmouthshire men to get appointments. 9n H$.. M3MB3:7 ;They could learn +elsh*;! 3-actly, they could learn +elsh. ' ,now that every fanatic falls into e-actly the same trap of saying ;<ou can do it on my conditions.; That is a situation we are not going to allow to grow up, and in stating that ' represent far more +elshmen than do my hon. 1riends. 1urthermore, my hon. 1riends have not made up their minds what they want. The constitutional argument has wavered over three or four different ob2ectives, not one of which has been clearly defined. The perorations have devoted themselves almost e-clusively to +elsh nationalism and a +elsh Parliament. The e-ordiums have spo,en about a Minister, a #ecretary of #tate for +ales, or a Minister with separate responsibilities. My hon. 1riends ,now that ' have always been opposed to this. ' am in the happy position of being able to say as a Minister e-actly what ' said on the Bac, Benches. ' am happier still. ' am happy to say that my e-perience in office has confirmed my untutored opinions as a Bac, Bencher. 2ust imagine, for a moment, what would be the situation of a Minister responsible for +elsh affairs. My hon. 1riends have insisted upon the catholicity of +elsh affairs. They have decried the +hite Paper for its omissions. They say that this was supposed to be a factual document. 't has been described as a document without soul, not written by +elshmen at all, the assumption being, of course, that +ales has a monopoly of soul. But this was a document which was drawn up, as my right hon. and learned 1riend said, hurriedly in order to provide a factual statement on the situation, and it will be refined and improved as time goes on, and more and more of these documents are issued. $ne hon. Member said that there ought to have been something in it about the B.B.4. The /overnment are not responsible for the administration of the B.B.4. )b*>+r. 9o"e)/b* The 5o"ernment are responsible for the ed!cation section. Will the +inister defend thatA )b*>+r. .e"an)/b* 0 am 'oin' to point o!t the !nhappy sit!ation in which any +inister for Wales wo!ld find himself. 7irst% it is said that this doc!ment is not comprehensi"e eno!'h% and that a lot more m!st 'o into it. The !nfort!nate man wo!ld ha"e to stand here and defend e"ery aspect of Welsh administration. -s 0 ha"e been sittin' here toni'ht% there ha"e been 8!estions raised o"er the whole ran'e of 5o"ernmentBa'ric!lt!re% transport% ed!cation% ho!sin'% commerce% the &er"ices and minin'. )b*>+r. 5renfell)/b* The same applies in &cottish /ebates e"ery year.

)b*>+r. .e"an)/b* The answer is% of co!rse% that it wo!ld be impossible for any sin'le +inister e"en to approach the problem. ,e wo!ld be o"erloaded and wo!ld ha"e to take the ad"ice and the information 'i"en to him by his collea'!es% in which case he wo!ld be merely a mo!thpiece. ,e wo!ld merely con"ey to the ,o!se what departmental +inisters wo!ld tell him to say. 0s that what hon. +embers wantA /o they want a Welsh messen'er boyA /o they want a +inister dressed !p here in the panoply of a Welsh 3ffice% who wo!ld he merely tellin' Welsh +embers what he was told to say by departmental +inistersA That is what he wo!ld ha"e to do. )b*>=rofessor 5r!ffydd)/b* %oes the Minister suggest that a +elshman is less capable than a #cotsman of doing this 2ob* b!"Mr. Bevan &b! The answer is that the #cotsman does not do it at the moment. The #ecretary of #tate for #cotland is not responsible for this variety of things. 9s my right hon. and learned 1riend has pointed out, none of the main economic functions are the responsibility of the #ecretary of #tate for #cotland. b!"Mr. /renfell &b! The #ecretary of #tate does answer, and always has answered, all these 5uestions. b!"Mr. Bevan &b! My hon. 1riend has been a long time in this House and should ,now better than that. =et him pic, up the $rder Paper any day and loo, at the >uestions. b!"Mr. /renfell &b! Two days every year are given to #cottish 3stimates, and all these 5uestions can be, and are, raised. b!"Mr. Bevan &b! My right hon. and learned 1riend has pointed out that the responsibility for the development areas in #cotland, 3ngland and +ales reposes in the President of the Board of Trade. The responsibility for transport rests with the Minister of Transport, and the Ministers of .ational 'nsurance and #upply are responsible for matters within their respective domains. The whole difficulty about this nationalistic bias is that it would s5uee8e the administrative life of a nation into this constitutional device6' was about to say something stronger6rather than have sane administration. The point ' am ma,ing is this, and it is incontrovertible7 if hon. Members had what they are as,ing for, a +elsh Minister

who would ma,e himself responsible for all this and more besides, he would be nothing but a messenger boy. )b*>+r. ,opkin +orris)/b* The &ecretary for &cotland was 'i"en powers !nder the -ct of 188C. -n amendin' -ct was introd!ced in 188D to enlar'e those powers% which were f!rther enlar'ed in 1926 to make him a &ecretary of &tate. Why has that enlar'ement 'one onA )b*>+r. .e"an)/b* The answer is that the &ecretary of &tate for &cotland still has no economic f!nctions altho!'h the enlar'ement has 'one onBand 0 am not 'oin' to fall o!t with my friends from &cotland in this matter. ,on. +embers ha"e slipped from one ar'!ment to the other and in almost the same breath ha"e said% @0f not a &ecretary for &tate% a +inister with o"erridin' powers.@ What does that meanA +inister with o"erridin' powers ob"io!sly wo!ld ha"e to possess as m!ch knowled'e or indeed more knowled'e than the +inisters he wo!ld be o"erridin'. )b*>+r. En'oed Thomas)/b* Who said @o"erridin' powers@A )b*>+r. .e"an)/b* 0t has been said o"er and o"er a'ain. )b*>+r. :mrys ;oberts)/b* Will the +inister 'i"e !s the name or constit!ency of one hon. +ember who has said itA )b*>+r. .e"an)/b* 0f 0 am wron'% 0 shall be willin' to withdraw and to apolo'ise% b!t 0 think it was within the hearin' of all my hon. 7riends here% and is within their recollection. We heard it o"er and o"er a'ain. What% otherwise% wo!ld be the need for itA )b*>+r. +ainwarin')/b* The reason for that o"erridin' power is the fail!re to coordinate in 9ardiff.

)b*>+r. .e"an)/b* +y hon. 7riend6s mind is always lo'ical. ,e will insist !pon followin' his lo'ic% e"en if it takes him o"er the precipice. 0t has taken him o"er the precipice. (ow he has said that there is a need for the o"erridin' powersB )b*>+r. +ainwarin')/b*

To o"erride all these departmental people. >+r. .e"an roseB

)b*>+r. +ainwarin')/b* This point is "ery simple. We started off with the complaint abo!t lack of coordination in 9ardiff. &ince we ha"e failed in coordination there% we m!st ha"e a +inister who can o"erride these independent administrators in 9ardiff. )b*>+r. .e"an)/b* (ow my hon. 7riend is sayin' the same thin' a'ain% only in different words. ,e wants a +inister with a!thority to o"erride all the other +inisters% in respect of their officers in 9ardiff. That is a constit!tional impossibility% and it wo!ld not s!cceed in inte'ratin' Welsh administration. 0t wo!ld s!cceed in disinte'ratin' the 5o"ernment. The idea of one +inister with o"erridin' powers steppin' o"er the heads of his collea'!es and 'i"in' orders to the officials in 9ardiff is ridic!lo!s. +y hon. 7riends know "ery well that it is ridic!lo!s. They are askin' for somethin' which is constit!tionally impossible. 1urthermore, are not my hon. 1riends6' say it with all respect6a little beside the mar,* 's it not rather cruel to give the impression to the ?@,@@@ unemployed men and women in +ales that their plight would be relieved and their distress removed by this constitutional change* 't is not #ocialism. 't is escapism. This is e-actly the way in which nation after nation has been ruined in the last A5 to B@ years, trying to pretend that deep)seated economic difficulties can be removed by constitutional changes. $ver and over again, that has been proved wrong. ' would spea, fran,ly. ' always #pea, fran,ly to the House. 'n this propaganda in +ales, have not my hon. 1riends noticed the company they are ,eeping* The wickedest, most irresponsible newspaper in Great Britain leads this campaign in Wales, the "Western Mail." Never was there a newspaper which, during my li e, has been more out o touch with the physical and spiritual li e o Wales than that miserable organ. This proposal is a beautiful ta,e)off. 't diverts the attention of the +elsh people from their economic difficulties on to this decoy, this constitutional device, which we all ,now to be of no use. 's it not only cruel, but a complete refutation of many of the things for which my hon. 1riends have stood all their lives, to suggest now that we can, under the aegis of +elsh nationalism, produce a constitutional change, and pretend it will be of any use to the +elsh people* ' would rather be honest. ' would say this to the +elsh people. 't will ta,e some time before we can reverse the economic ebb and flow of this country. ' have been watching over the last 15 months the housing and industrial progress in +ales. The remar,able thing about it is that the local authorities in +ales came into action over housing more slowly than those in 3ngland. There are at the present time a larger proportion of local authorities in +ales not building houses

than in other part of Britain. +hat is the e-planation* 't is that +ales is being victimised by its past. The same thin' is tr!e of some of the other areas. Wales was an area of ind!strial contraction for o"er 2C years% and therefore there was no ind!strial "itality in the area. There was no b!ildin' ind!stry. &ome local a!thorities in Wales p!t contracts o!t to tender and recei"ed no replies. There are no b!ilders. 0f one 'oes aro!nd the .irmin'ham area or the o!tskirts of <ondon% into which the Welsh pop!lation was drained in the interwar years% one finds that the local a!thorities there spran' into ho!sin' acti"ity at once% beca!se their area was f!ll of b!ilders. They had had an era of ind!strial e1pansion. 0n addition% therefore% to o!r other diffic!lties% we ha"e to make 'ood the ind!strial debilitation which occ!rred in Wales between the two wars% and that is a 'reat problem. We ha"e no technicians in some of those areas. 0 ha"e been 'oin' abo!t this co!ntry d!rin' the last 1C months and 0 ha"e met Welsh architects and Welsh s!r"eyors Be1cellent menBser"in' their local a!thorities enth!siastically% b!t not in Wales. They left Wales% beca!se there was no b!ildin'. (ow we are tryin' to make bricks witho!t straw. (ow we are tryin' to meet all these problems in the Welsh areas with den!ded ind!strial e8!ipment. These are problems which we are tryin' to tackle as enth!siastically as possible. 0 ass!re my hon. 7riends that the 5o"ernment are not satisfiedB )b*>+r. 5renfell)/b* What will the 5o"ernment do abo!t itA )b*>+r. .e"an)/b* We are dri"in' into Wales at the present time all the factories we can. We are short of timber at the moment in this co!ntryBbadly short. 0 shall ha"e to send o!t to local a!thorities a circ!lar ad"isin' them to economise on timber a'ain. Timber lies "ery lar'ely o!tside o!r own controlB )b*>+r. 5renfell)/b* We are short of steel and bricks% too. )b*>+r. .e"an)/b* +y hon. 7riend cannot ha"e it e"ery wayB )b*>+r. 5renfell)/b* Why not 'i"e the answerA )b*>+r. .e"an)/b* +y hon. 7riend m!st let me finish. ,e is a little 8!er!lo!s. What 0 am sayin' is that we are attemptin' to sol"e these ind!strial diffic!lties in the de"elopment areas in times of e1treme diffic!lty% and that many of the raw materials we need to sol"e the problems% lie o!tside o!r own control. Timber is one. We can 'et no

timber from the &o"iet Enion this winter. The (orthern ports are froFen !p. ;!ssia was o!r bi''est s!pplier of softwood timber before the war. We shall ha"e to try to 'et these thin's from other places% and we are doin' o!r !tmost% b!t these are physical limitations. They are not limitations that rhetoric can 'et aro!nd% b!t act!al physical limitations. The hon. +ember for 5ower #+r. 5renfell$ referred to steel. That is a "ery bi' diffic!lty. ,on. +embers opposite o!'ht not to smile at this% beca!se one of the reasons why we are short of steel in 5reat .ritain today is the so called policy of rationalisation they carried o!t in the interwar years. :"erythin' we to!ch in the de"elopment areas at the moment is the black herita'e of what hon. +embers opposite ha"e left !s. -ll o!r diffic!lties arise o!t of that. 0f it had not been for thatB )b*><ie!t. 9olonel /ower)/b* Tell !s the old% old story. )b*>+r. .e"an)/b* The hon. and 'allant +ember will hear it o"er and o"er a'ain. .!t already% in one year% we ha"e pro"ided more s!pplementary employment in the de"elopment areas than was done in ?2 or 42 years e"en with these diffic!lties% beca!se we are con"inced that it wo!ld be an abidin' reproach to this land% and the 5o"ernment wo!ld ha"e failed% if they did not s!cceed !ltimately in wipin' o!t in the de"elopment areas the herita'e we ha"e had from the party opposite.

> )b*G!estion p!t% and a'reed to )/b* > )b*;esol"ed:)/b* That this ,o!se welcomes the p!blication of the White =aper on Wales and +onmo!thshire and takes note of the 5o"ernment6s proposal f!rther to inte'rate and coordinate 5o"ernment and -dministrati"e machinery in Wales and +onmo!thshire