BLOGS//AUTOMATON

AnUncannyMind:MasahiroMoriontheUncannyValleyandBeyond
POSTEDBY: NORRIKAGEKI/TUE,JUNE12,2012

MasahiroMoriathishomeinTokyo.

Inthisguestpost,NorriKagekiinterviewsMasahiroMori,who,asaprofessorofengineeringatTokyoInstituteof Technologyinthe1970s,proposedthenowfamousconceptoftheuncannyvalley.[Readthefirstauthorized translationofhisseminalarticlehere.]Mori'sinsightwasthatpeoplewouldreactwithrevulsiontohumanlikerobots, whoseappearanceresembled,butdidnotquitereplicate,thatofarealhuman.Hecalledthisphenomenonbukimino tani(theterm"uncannyvalley"firstappearedinthe1978bookRobots:Fact,Fiction,andPrediction,writtenbyJasia Reichardt). Theuncannyvalleyhasbecomemorerelevantinthepastfewyearssince robotsthatactuallylookandmovelikehumansarestartingtobecomeareality. Infact,researcherscurrentlydebateoverwhethertheyshouldtrytoovercome theuncannyvalleyorsimplydesignrobotsthataremoremechanicalin appearance.ItseemslikeagoodtimetohearagainfromMori,who'snow85 andstillfullofideas.Kageki,aSiliconValleybasedwriter,metMoriathis TokyoresidencelastNovemberandconductedthefollowinginterview. NorriKageki:Youressaytitled"TheUncannyValley"firstappearedina 1970issueofEnergy(picturedbelow),amagazinepublishedbyEsso,a JapanesesubsidiaryofStandardOilCo.Howdidthiscomeabout? MasahiroMori:Backthen,aneditoratEnergyinformedmethattheywere goingtopublishanissuetitled"RoboticsandThought."Heaskedmetobea partofaroundtableonthesubjectalongwiththesciencefictionwriterSakyo KomatsuandProf.NatsuhikoYoshida(ofTokyoInstituteofTechnology),whose expertisewasinphilosophyandlogic.Iwasaskedtowritesomethingforthe issueaswell.SinceIwasachild,Ihaveneverlikedlookingatwaxfigures. Theylookedsomewhatcreepytome.Atthattime,electronicprosthetichands

Aversionofthisarticleoriginally appearedintheJune2012issueof IEEERobotics&AutomationMagazine.

werebeingdeveloped,andtheytriggeredinmethesamekindofsensation.Theseexperienceshadmademestart thinkingaboutrobotsingeneral,whichledmetowritethatessay.Theuncannyvalleywasmyintuition.Itwasoneof myideas. NK:Idon'tthinktherewereanyrobotsthatlookedlikehumansbackin1970.Andyetyouhadthisidea. MM:That'sright.Therewerenosuchrobotsyet.Inthosedays,peopledidn'tthinkuniversitiesshouldbedoing researchonrobots.Theythoughtthatitwasfrivoloustobeworkingona"toy."Aswithanythingnew,therewasmuch opposition,andIfeltthateveryonewasagainstme.In1970,itwastooembarrassingforanyonetomakeagrant proposaltotheMinistryofEducationtostartaprojectonrobots.Eventhestudentsweredubiousaboutit.Theywere concernedabouttheirfuturecareersafterworkingonaprojectlikethis.Today,kidsgotocollegespecificallytostudy robotics.Howtimeshavechanged!

Thecoverofthe1970issueofEnergy inwhichMori'suncannyvalleyessayfirstappeared.

NK:Thereisadebateonwhethertheuncannyvalleyisascientificconceptornot.Whatisyourviewonthis? MM:Ihavereadthatthereisscientificevidencethattheuncannyvalleydoesindeedexistforexample,bymeasuring brainwavesscientistshavefoundevidenceofthat.Idoappreciatethefactthatresearchisbeingconductedinthis area,butfrommypointofview,Ithinkthatthebrainwavesactthatwaybecausewefeeleerie.Itstilldoesn'texplain whywefeeleerietobeginwith.Theuncannyvalleyrelatestovariousdisciplines,includingphilosophy,psychology,

anddesign,andthatiswhyIthinkithasgeneratedsomuchinterest.However,Ineverimaginedthatitwouldgain suchamagnitudeofinterestwhenIfirstwroteaboutit.Pointingouttheexistenceoftheuncannyvalleywasmoreofa pieceofadvicefrommetopeoplewhodesignrobotsratherthanascientificstatement. NK:Howmuchresponsedidyougetwhenyoufirstwroteyouressay? MM:Youcouldsaythattherewasnoresponse. NK:ThenwhendidtheuncannyvalleystarttoreceiveattentionfromoutsideofJapan? MM:Itstartedtobepickedupafterthehumanoidsconferencein2005(IEEERoboticsandAutomationSociety InternationalConferenceonHumanoidRobots).1 Iwasinvitedtothatevent,butIwasunabletoattendduetoother commitments. NK:Sincethen,theuncannyvalleyhasbecomeasortofprincipleintheroboticsfield.Whatisyourtakeonthis? MM:Itisnothingformetobragabout,butIampleasantlysurprisedthatithasbecomesowellknownthatpeopleare talkingaboutitsomuch. NK:Itmeansthatittook40yearsfortheworldtocatchup. MM:Yes,Iagree.Thismaynotgetacrosstopeopleoverseas,butIthinkofmyselfasthedoginthestory"Hanasaka Jiisan."[InthisJapanesefolkstory,adogbarkstolethisownersknowwheretodig,andwhentheydigtheyfindgold.] Iseemtohaveagoodnoseforsniffingoutinterestingthings,butIdon'thavetheskilltodigthemup.That'swhyIbark "Dighere!"andthenotherpeoplewilldigandfindtreasure.Or,ifpeopledon'tdig,Idigalittlebitbymyself.Then peoplecomeinlikeagoldrush.TheuncannyvalleywasjustoneofthethingsthatIsensed. NK:Doyouthinktherearerobotsthathavecrossedtheuncannyvalley? MM:Yes.IthinktheHRP4C[anadultsizehumanoidrobotdevelopedbyJapan'sNationalInstituteofAdvanced IndustrialScienceandTechnology]isoneofthem.Thoughonsecondthought,itmaystillhaveabitofeerinessinit.

Mori'snowfamousuncannyvalleychart.

NK:Youruncannyvalleychartcapturestheconceptnicely:Thecurvefirstgoesup,aspeople'saffinitytoward robotsincreases,theybecomemorehumanlike,butonlyuptoapoint,whenthecurvesuddenlyplungesintothe uncannyvalley.Doyoustillthinkthatrobotdesignersshouldaimforthefirstpeakinsteadofaimingbeyondthe valley? MM:Yes,Ido.Ialwaystellthemtostopthere.Whydoyouhavetotaketheriskandtrytogetclosertotheotherside? It'snoteveninterestingtodeveloparobotthatlooksexactlylikehuman,frommyperspective.

NK:Whatdoyoumeanbythat? MM:Ihavenomotivationtobuildarobotthatresidesontheothersideofthevalley.Ithinkthe[designof]Asimois moreinvigorating.Ifeelthatrobotsshouldbedifferentfromhumanbeings. NK:Butaren'ttheremanyprojectsinJapanthatareaimingfortheothersideofthevalley? MM:Iwouldn'tsaythattherearemany,butyestherearesome,andthat'sfine.AlthoughIdothinkitisdifficult.Using thewoodcarvingofaBuddhastatueasanexample,thatonelasttouchoftheknifemaydestroythewholething.There isanarrowmarginforerror. NK:TherearepeoplelikeformerMassachusettsInstituteofTechnologyprofessorandfounderofstartup HeartlandRoboticsRodneyBrookswhothinkhumansarealsomachinesandthattheycanbebuilt.Whatare yourthoughtsonthis? MM:Idon'tknow.Idoagreethatsomeaspectsofhumansarelikemachines.ButwhatIdon'tknowisthemind.Ithink thisisaproblemthathumanswillneverbeabletosolve.Noonecanexplainwhetheranobjectcanbearamind.We don'tknowwhetheramindwillbeformedwhencomputersbecomereallyprecise.Willacomputerfeelonedaythatit's notinagoodmoodorthatitdoesn'tlikethispersonorthat?Idon'tknow.MyfriendIchiroKato[thelateWaseda Universityprofessorandpioneerinhumanoidresearch]usedtothinkthatthemindcanbecreated,butIdon'tthinkso. That'sbecausewereallydon'tknowwhatthemindessentiallyis.

Theuncannyvalleyrelatestovariousdisciplines,including philosophy,psychology,anddesign,andthatiswhyIthink ithasgeneratedsomuchinterest.

MasahiroMori
NK:Howwouldyouliketheideaoftheuncannyvalleytobeappliedintheworld? MM:Researchrelatedtotheuncannyvalleywillmakeprogressnaturally.Iamgratefulforthat.Ithasbeen24years sinceIretiredfromtheuniversity,andIamnow85yearsold.ThereisnothingthatIcandoaboutitbuttolookforward tothisfieldbeingcultivatedbyotherpeople'sabilities. NK:Inwhatareasdoyouthinkhumanoidswouldbemostuseful? MM:Therearemanythingsthathumanscan'tdoforwhichrobotswouldbehelpful,butIdon'tthinktherobotsneedto behumanoids.Iactuallythinkthatitwouldbeextremelydifficultforahumanoidtohelpwithhousework.It'snot possibletobuildoneatthepricepointsofvacuumcleanersanddishwashers. NK:Whatisyourdefinitionofarobot? MM:Youcan'tdefinearobot.It'sthesameastryingtodefineMt.Fuji.Ifasteephillsuddenlyprotrudesfromthe flatland,youcandrawalinetoshowwherethemountainstarts,butMt.Fujibecomeshighersograduallythatyoucan't drawaline.RobotsarelikeMt.Fuji.It'shardtoseparatewhatisarobotfromwhatisnot.Asimoissonearthepeak, anyonecaneasilycallitarobot.Butwhataboutadishwasher?Itcanautomaticallywashdishes,soyoumightcallita robot.Thelineisblurry. NK:Arethereanyrobotsthatyouareinterestedinnowadays? MM:Ihavelostinterestinroboticshardware.Icanseethatthecapabilitiesareimproving,butthereisnothingout thereevennowthatIhavenotimaginedbefore.Forexample,swarmrobots.Peoplenowcallthemdistributed autonomoussystems,andtherehasbeenmuchprogressintermsoftheirapplicationsinthepasttenyears.Ihad thoughtaboutitmanyyearsago,andIbuiltsevenrobotsthatmovedasaswarmandexhibitedthematExpo'75held inOkinawain1975.Ithinkthosewerethefirstswarmrobotsintheworld.LetmeshowyouasketchbookthatIhave kept[photo,below].Iusedtocutoutthesepicturesandphotographsfromvariousmagazines,andtherearedesigns thatmystudentsandIdrewbackinthosedays.Thesearefromthe1960sbeforeXeroxphotocopiesbecameavailable

inJapan.Icategorizedthembyfingersandshoulders[asreferencesfordesigns].Ifeelthatpeoplearefinallybuilding therobotsthatareinthissketchbook.Backthen,Icouldn'tmaketheserobotsbecauseIdidn'thavethefunding.Now, myformerstudentsandtheirstudentsarebuildingvariousrobots.Forexample,theAsimoandHRP4Cprojectsare beingledbymyformerstudents.

Mori'ssketchbookswithhisrobotdesigns.

NK:Ifyouwerestillattheuniversity,arethereanyrobotsthatyouwouldliketobuild?Isthereanythingyoufeel thatyouhaveleftundone? MM:HowshouldIputthis...Ihaveneverapproachedmyresearchinawaywhereyoudecideonanareaandthen youtrytodigouteverythinginthatarea.Iwalkedaroundandwhentherewassomethingthatsmelledinteresting,I wouldbark"Dighere!"Andthenwhensomeoneelsestarteddiggingthere,Iwouldmoveontosomewhereelse.That's whatIhavebeendoing.Sothereisnoareaofspecialtyforme.Usually,academicswilldecideonatopicandthenyou canfindallthepapersonthattopicatthatperson'slaboratoryandsoon.IdidworkthatwayuntilIfinishedmy dissertationbutthatwayofresearchdidnotsuitmewell.SoIroamedaroundandjumpedontowhateversmelled interesting. NK:Haveyoucomeacrossanyinterestingscentsrecently? MM:Rightnow,IamworkinghardontherelationshipbetweentechnologyandtheteachingsofBuddha.Todevelop robots,youneedtounderstandhumans.IthinktheteachingsofBuddhaisthebestwaytounderstandhumans, especiallywithregardtounderstandingthehumanmind.Technologyisnotallgood,andincertaincases,the negativeaspectsoftechnologywillappearstrongly.Weneedtosavetechnologyfrombecomingnegative.Thatis what'sonmymindrightnow.

1 M.Mori,"OntheUncannyValley."InProc.Humanoids2005Workshop:ViewsoftheUncannyValley,Tsukuba,

Japan,December2005.[backtotext] NorriKagekiisajournalistwhowritesaboutrobots.SheisoriginallyfromTokyoandcurrentlylivesintheSan FranciscoBayArea.SheisthepublisherofGetRoboandalsowritesforvariouspublicationsintheU.S.andJapan. Photos:NorriKageki

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