Dont Try To Dodge The Recession With Grad School

2009/02/04
Don't try to dodge the recession with
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Don't try to dodge the recession with grad school

Posted to: College students | Finding a career | Job hunt February 3rd, 2009
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A recession is typically a good time for graduate schools. Their application pool goes up because people see them as safe shelter from the storm. The scariest part of a down economy is the idea of having no income. Of course, graduate school does not solve for that. But graduate school does solve the second most scary thing about a bad economy: lack of a learning curve.
About Penelope Trunk
Penelope is the founder of 3 startups -- most recently, Brazen Careerist, a web service to help companies find candidates. Her career advice appears in more than 200 The more desperate you are for a job, the more likely you are to take a job that doesnt newspapers and magazines including Time teach you what you want to learn. And then you get to that job and you think, Grad school magazine, San Francisco Chronicle and could solve this problem. But in fact, grad school creates larger, and more insurmountable Boston Globe . In a review of this blog, problems. And some the problems youre trying to solve with grad school might not be Business Week called Penelope's writing problems at all. "poetic."
1. Grad school pointlessly delays adulthood. E-mail Penelope The best thing you can do for yourself is take time to figure out who you are and where you fit in the world. No one teaches you that in school. You need to do it yourself. Grad school is a way to delay this process, rather than move you forward, according to Thomas Benton of the Chronicle of Higher Education. So instead of dodging tough questions by going back to school, try being lost. Its normal, and honest, and you will end up with more selfThis Month knowledge and less debt than your grad-school counterparts, and in many cases, you will be All Time similarly qualified for your next big job. Penelope's Favorites 2. PhD programs are pyramid schemes Its very hard to get a job teaching at a university. And if you are not going to teach, why are 5 Time management tricks I learned from you getting a degree? You dont need a piece of paper to show that you are learning. Go years of hating Tim Ferriss (246) read books after work. Because look: In the arts, you would have a better chance of My annual rant about Christmas at work surviving the Titanic than getting a tenure-track position; and once you adjust for IQ, (215) education, and working hours, post-PhD science jobs are among the most low-paying jobs High-income women get more oral sex. you could get. Maybe. (115) 5 Career tips women should run from (115) 3. Business school is not going to help 90% of the people who go. How to shift between work and dating (109) Heres the problem with business school. Most people want to work for themselves, but you cant learn entrepreneurship in school you have to learn by doing. And a business Don't try to dodge the recession with grad degree that is not from a top school is not going to get you very much at all, according to school (97) recruiting firm Challenger & Gray. Finally, Harvard Business School has acknolweged that if 7 Things to consider before launching a you are planning to downshift for kids around the time you are 30, your ability to leverage an startup (79) MBA is drastically compromised. How to decide if you need a therapist (72) Solve most of your problems by solving just 4. Law school is a factory for depressives. one (65) It used to be that if you had a law degree it was a ticket to a high salary and a safe career. How to figure out what you should be doing Today many people go to law school and cannot find a job. This is, in a large part, because law school selects for people who are good with details and pass tests and law firms select with your life (62) for people who are good at marketing themselves and can drum up business. Law firms are in a transition phase, and they have many unfair labor practices leftover from older Palin's children should take priority over being generations, for example, hourly billing and making young lawyers pay dues for what is, Vice President (262) today, a largely uncertain future. Which might explain why the American Bar Association Five things people say about Christmas that reports that the majority of lawyers would recommend that people not to go into law. drive me nuts (255) 5 Time management tricks I learned from 5. The medical school model assumes that health care spending is not a mess. years of hating Tim Ferriss (246) Medical school is extremely expensive, and our health care system does not pay enough to How to deal with getting fired (from Yahoo) doctors for them to sanely accept the risk of taking $200,000 in debt to serve as doctors. (241) Specialists like opthamologists have great hours, and plastic surgeons have great salaries, but most doctors will be stuck in a system that is largely broken, and could easily break My annual rant about Christmas at work
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them financially like OBGYNs who cannot afford to deliver babies in New York because they cant afford the malpractice insurance with their salary. 6. Going to grad school is like going into the military. Applications to the military increase in a bad economy in a disturbingly similar way that applications to graduate school do. For the most part, both alternatives are bad. They limit your future in ways you cant even imagine, and they are not likely to open the kind of doors you really want. Military is the terrible escape hatch for poor kids, and grad school is the terrible escape hatch for rich kids. 7. Most jobs are better than they seem: You can learn from any job. When I worked on a French chicken farm, I thought Id learn French, but I didnt, because I was so foreign to the French farm family that they couldnt talk to me. However I did learn a lot of other things, like how to bargain to get the best job in the chicken coup, and how to get out of killing the bunnies. You dont need to be learning the perfect thing in your job. You just need to be learning. Dont tell yourself you need a job that gives your life meaning. Jobs dont do that; doesnt that make you feel better? Suddenly being in the workplace doesnt seem so bad. 8. Graduate school forces you to overinvest: Its too high risk. In a world where people did not change careers, grad school made sense. Today, grad school is antiquated. You invest three to six extra years in school in order to get your dream career. But the problem is that not only are the old dream careers deteriorating, but even if you have a dream career, it wont last. Youll want to change because you can. Because thats normal for todays workplace. People who are in their twenties today will change careers about four times in their life. Which means that grad school is a steep investment for such a short period of time. The grad school model needs to change to adapt to the new workplace. Until then. Stay away. Del.icio.us Email This Post Print Digg Reddit StumbleUpon (215) Living up to your potential is BS (205) My first day of marriage counseling (194) Twentysomething: Why I regret getting straight A's in college (186) You should make Sarah Palin your mentor (174) Advice from the top: Marry a stay-at-home spouse or buy the equivalent. (173) Blogging essential for a good career Navigating the quarterlife crisis How much money do you need to be happy? Hint: Your sex life matters more I'm moving out of New York City What to do in college to be successful in your career 10 tips for time management in a multitasking world My name is not really Penelope Make life more stable with more frequent job changes My financial history, and stop whining about your job What generation are you part of, really? Take this test. 5 steps to taming materialism, from an accidental expert Search
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But what if you could keep your job and go to grad school part-time, perhaps earning an MPA over five years? Better yet, what if you could do that without borrowing a dime? Is grad school still a crummy idea? Say it ain't so!
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Posted by Juliette on 02/03/2009 at 10:35am | permalink | Reply to this comment
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I think you have to ask yourself what, really, are you achieving by getting the MPA? Seems like any experience you need in order to earn more money, you could get over those five years in the workplace. Think about all the extra time you spend, after work, earning the MPA. Seems like that time would have a higher return for you if you did something else with it. Penelope
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Posted by Penelope Trunk on 02/03/2009 at 11:21am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Although these are 8 decent suggestions for not going to grad school, there are (and will continue to be) plenty of reasons why someone should. However, in light of the title of this article, you are correct and I'd like to add the following recommendations: 1. Do not go to graduate school immediately after finishing your undergraduate degree. At this point, you are still too uneducated to learn anything else. Get a job, don't think about grad school for 5 years. 2. Do not go to graduate school after losing your job. The ONLY exception to this rule is if you were already planning to go back to school, but see rule #3. 3. Do not borrow money to go to graduate school. The ONLY exception to this rule is if you can afford to go to school and pay for it WITHOUT borrowing money. Otherwise, make your employer pay for it.
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Posted by tinyhands on 02/03/2009 at 10:42am | permalink | Reply to this comment
LOL! A thoroughly dyspeptic take, but I agree with the gist of your concrete economic assessments, if not your conclusions, especially the psychological ones. I have a PhD in engineering, and now have a well-paid research job, but yes, it is financially just not worth it when you do the math right. Compared to my peers who started working right out of BS, I am way behind financially, both in savings, and in some cases even in paycheck. But I don't regret it for a moment, because it was my path to growing up. It is only a way to avoid adulthood for those who go to grad school when the world is clearly telling them their path goes through some other lost territory And PhDs are a pyramid scheme only if you are married to the idea of a tenuretrack job. There's other interesting things to do after, esp. in the sciences/tech. Can't speak for lib arts/humanities. You could be right for those
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Posted by George Glass on 02/03/2009 at 10:46am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Excellent post! I was recently laid off, (still young 27) and one of the options I put on my list was going back to school. However financially it would never work out unless I wanted to accumulate a huge debt, not a personal goal. My husband and I decided reading books, blogs and learning new computer programs with some of
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my spare time would be a much better investment. I agree that you learn more by doing a job than going to school. In the first year of my job out of college I learned more about my career on the job than in the 5 years I went to school. Graduate school is too high of a risk for my generation. I am already facing a career change after graduating only 5 years ago!
Posted by Corky on 02/03/2009 at 10:47am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Ouch, you hit the bullseye Penelope. I went to grad school- two Masters degrees, crazy - in my 30s after leaving a 12 year career in show business figuring it would give me a practical foundation for a "real" career. Through fits and starts, freelancing, unemployment, and living off my credit cards it took me nine years to get a regular, salaried job. NINE. And the school loan debt I am still paying off, 12 years after graduating from the second program, isn't going away fast. I could argue that school was a pleasure, that it helped me grow my mind, that without it I would not have traveled the path that led me to my husband, etc. but I could not honestly say that the financial investment I made has paid off in dollar terms, quite the reverse. And I don't know that it made any difference to my growth as a person. I already felt lost and didn't want to stay there, which is why I went to school. I wonder what would have happened if I'd just stayed lost for awhile. It would have been a brave but very uncomfortable choice.
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Posted by julie on 02/03/2009 at 10:48am | permalink | Reply to this comment
You wrote what I was thinking. Grad school is understandably appealing because, at the very least, it's a plan, but at the most, it's the Bay of Pigs of life decisions.
Posted by Vagina Drum on 02/03/2009 at 10:48am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Ouch. Sweeping generalization about the military. Attitudes like that is what irks many of our service men the most. The military is a job, just like working for a start-up. Soldiers/sailors/Marines get pay and benefits and jumpstarts to great careers. Ask one of our military members if they are having trouble figuring out who they are and where they fit in the world. You have a difficult argument ahead of yourself after you claim that the military limits people "in ways you can't even imagine".
Posted by Katie on 02/03/2009 at 10:58am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I don't think this article makes a clear enough distinction between a Master's and a PhD's. Master's degrees usually take two years, while PhD's take six. That is a vastly different investment of time and money.
Posted by Mary on 02/03/2009 at 10:59am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Actually, I think wanting a Ph.D. is a good reason to get one. Also, I love to read, and I read history books all the time. I also have a Master's degree in history. That's why I'm able to tell you that getting a degree and reading books after work are not the same thing at all.
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Posted by KateNonymous on 02/03/2009 at 11:06am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Thanks Penelope. I have emailed the link to this to my parents about 2 seconds after I read this
Posted by Alex K on 02/03/2009 at 11:10am | permalink | Reply to this comment
The highest compliment! Penelope
When you put links in the post, they are not absolute. This makes them not work on my RSS reader. I'm not sure what you use for blogging, but if you could fix that, it would be wonderful.
Posted by Moshe Zadka on 02/03/2009 at 11:10am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I have seen too many people my age miserable in grad school. Inevitably they went thinking it would be just like another four years of college - basically, because they wanted to hit the snooze button the alarm clock of life. Of course, they found it grad school is more like working a job than being an undergrad, and that if you're not 100% committed to the topic you picked, you will hate it and resent how much time it takes away from the rest of your life. My advice to anyone is not to go to grad school unless you're like, incredibly passionate about sedimentology or neuroscience or whatever your topic is.
Posted by Lise on 02/03/2009 at 11:14am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope, People have asked me if I plan on going to graduate school when I finish my undergraduate degree. I think in the field of public relations, experience is more important. I can always get my accreditation in public relations, which I see as more valuable. If I did decide to get another degree, it would be because my employer was willing to pay for it. I can't see putting myself more in debt when I can read the books myself and learn by doing. Great post.
Posted by Rachel M. Esterline .:. A Step Ahead on 02/03/2009 at 11:20am | permalink | Reply to this comment
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Similarly, don't try to dodge a rabbit with nimbleness. It seldom works.
Posted by ralph seaton on 02/03/2009 at 11:21am | permalink | Reply to this comment
First off, you've left off one great reason to go to grad school during a recession. During a time where employers are cutting costs and freezing salaries, it's a great way to increase your compensation. Many companies are still doing tuition reimbursement, and if you have any interest at all it's a great way to increase your compensation while building a complementary skill set which will increase your options if your job folds. For me, getting my MS degree didn't delay adulthood, it accelerated it. I learned to balance obligations to multiple stakeholders by having to balance my job as a TA and my work as a student. Spending time with faculty as a TA helped me understand more about the educational system and gave me valuable contacts for later in life. Once I left my TA position for a "real job" (that paid for me to continue my degree), I again had to exercise valuable skills in balancing education versus my career, while dealing with being freshly married and looking for a new place to live. All in all I can't see a way that going for my MS delayed my adulthood. What it did was allow me more time to get to know the industry so that instead of taking the first job I came upon I could take some time, interview at more companies, and find a position doing work I was excited to do. Completing my MS degree was a safety net while I job-hunted, a valuable life experience, and without a doubt a net win. I don't regret it a bit.
Posted by Dave Spencer on 02/03/2009 at 11:30am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Grad school was the best thing I ever did. Undergrad teaches you to memorize and move with the herd. Grad school teaches you to think and defend your ideas. I don't believe the system is perfect, and grad school is not for everyone, but it is a worthwhile endeavor if you are looking to expand your mind.
Posted by andy on 02/03/2009 at 11:33am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Ditto to Andy's point. For the record, I worked at P's start up for six months and learned more about entrepreneurship from the 10-week MBA class I took in conjunction. You can definitely learn plenty about entrepreneurship from school, and MBA programs in my area have produced a ton of successful and profitable start-ups, ranging from high-tech to chain restaurants. (I live in Chicago) I also think P's jibe at the military is plain ignorant. But then again, so is most of this article - a (non) degree in English doesn't make you an expert on becoming a doctor, lawyer, or soldier. Also, none of my friends taking those professional routes are depressed or feel limited in their career options as P says they should be. I think it's just hard for P to empathize with people who want to build a traditional career, and have the right mindset to do so. I am not one of those people, but I can understand the concept that not everyone has the same preferences as me.
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Posted by Monica O'Brien on 02/03/2009 at 01:06pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Bold words from someone without a graduate degree. Can you really totally dismiss an option without trying it? I agree that you shouldn't go to grad school simply because of the economy; it's more of a buy and hold proposition. If it is the right time for you to go to grad school, I wouldn't avoid it simply because we're in a recession. Grad school is not for everyone, but that doesn't mean it's worthless to everyone. Particularly for people who are able to get a school to pay them to study there, grad school may be a valuable experience.
Posted by Teague on 02/03/2009 at 11:35am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I went to graduate school. Boston University for English. In a recession. And I left when I was short just one class because I had a good job offer in the corporate world and I could see that actually getting the degree was not going to help me get a job in either the academic or corporate worlds. Penelope
"Specialists like opthamologists have great hours." I just want to point out the correct spelling for ophthalmologist. I'm a medical editor and that's always one that's tricky to spell. I think grad school is good for people who want a degree they need. For instance, I'm considering becoming a school psychologist. To do that, I need a master's. My boyfriend wants to become an archivist and he needs a master's to do that. He works at a university and his tuition is totally free (except for the taxes on the tuition, which is a new thing; used to be entirely free). It makes sense for him to be in grad school. He craves stability and wants a job that suits his personality and interests and will allow him to contribute to our future together but he's not a job hopper or a careerist. So, once he's an archivist, he'll probably be one for a long time. If people are interested in going into healthcare and perhaps becoming a doctor, I recommend looking into nursing or being a physician's assistant. I think that's more sane than being a doctor and the salary and benefits are great. Also, nurses are the ones who truly save you when you're sick. You can survive a bout in the hospital with a lousy doctor (maybe not a surgeon, though) but god help you if your nurse sucks. Finally, although the military was not an option for me, I agree with Katie that you're mischaracterizing it as a dead end. Of course, during stupid wars, it's bad. Otherwise, it's a great way to travel, earn money and benefits, get reduced housing, get your school paid for. My mother was in the military and got a great, civilian career out of it, no debt and a lifetime of the best insurance carrier ever (USAA). My cousin is in the air force now and just got back from overseas (not Iraq or Afghanistan) where he was doing PR and hobnobbing with famous people and dignataries. Talk about networking.
Posted by Joselle on 02/03/2009 at 11:43am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I don't think these points apply at all to library workers who are thinking about getting an MLS. To be a librarian, in most cases you still need an MLS. Thus, not
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going to graduate school is not an option. I'm not saying that laid-off individuals from other fields should start getting MLS degrees in droves, but for someone who is in the library field as a clerk or LTA, library school should never be off the table, no matter the economy.
Posted by AR on 02/03/2009 at 11:46am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Great, so no grad school. Fine. But what should we be doing in the recession?
Posted by mamaworker on 02/03/2009 at 11:47am | permalink | Reply to this comment
So it sounds like getting a degree in English during a recession might not be a good idea for you. That doesn't mean that no grad school is a good idea during a recession. One might argue that the real key is to know what you want to do with the degree before pursuing it. I agree that you shouldn't pursue just any degree, but I think you may have overstated your case.
Posted by Teague on 02/03/2009 at 11:48am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Good luck telling this to the MBAs from top 30 schools that walk out after two years making 90k Most MBAs maybe want to start a company but instead they join a big company and do quite well. For the record, I am not an MBA.
Posted by The Weakonomist on 02/03/2009 at 11:49am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I am currently in Grad School, Working Full Time and completely lost. Thoughts? I disagree that M.B.As do not teach entrepenuership. So far my program has increased my confidence tremedously and given me access to case studies in which I can learn from other people's mistakes. It has also given me ample opportunities to network with other entrepenuers and potential funding sources. All good learning opportunities I would not otherwise have. It also gives me the opportunity to see beyond the microcosm of my employer. With any luck I can wade through all three at once. Now sucks, but it feels better than sitting still.
Posted by Jon A. on 02/03/2009 at 11:57am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Jon, your comment gives a good summary of what an MBA can do for someone. But it's also a good summary of why the only MBAs that really get you something are from the top-ten (or so) schools. After that, the networking potential is no better than what you'd get being a great networker outside of school. Also, please click the link about how you cannot learn entrepreneurship in school. This is not controversial research. The person saying you can't learn it is from the Kauffman Institute, which funds tons of entrepreneurship
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programs at the MBA level. Also, there's great research from Darden (Univ of Virginia's top-ranked business school) showing that you cannot teach entrepreneurship because so much of entrepreneurship is being great at building a network. Penelope
Posted by Penelope Trunk on 02/03/2009 at 01:16pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I would like to address your comment in regards to the military: "They limit your future in ways you cant even imagine, and they are not likely to open the kind of doors you really want." I have worked shoulder to shoulder with military personnel. Unfortunately, many folks have to do dirty work that is highlighted in the media. I am always saddened by this and encourage anyone joining the services to consider this risk. I have trained many enlisted people in Army, Navy and Air Force on highly complex technical systems. If a person chooses the correct path and does well on the ASVAB, an individual can exit the service with technical knowledge, a nice scholarship and retirement. In my six years, I have met men and women who program in multiple languages, speak multiple languages, can solder circuit boards in a snap and have real life think on their feet skills. For an individual that has come out of high school with no future but flipping burgers, you cant tell me that the military does not open doors. If a person completes a four year degree at any university and participates in ROTC plus officer training school, the amount of responsibility a Lieutenant or Captain may have is jarring. Imagine stating that you have managed million dollar plus programs from the government side and you are under 30. Leadership = yes (especially with a degree) Technical Experience = yes Worldly experience = yes
Posted by Mauri on 02/03/2009 at 11:58am | permalink | Reply to this comment
My husband and I are in our 20s. All of our friends are going back to school, and my parents keep pushing me to. It's really nice to see someone else writing the same argument that I have ESPECIALLY about getting an MBA. Thank you for doing this. I've passed your article on to who knows how many people. Katie
Posted by Katie @ Making This Home on 02/03/2009 at 12:10pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Both my husband and I had successful early careers without even earning our bachelor's degrees (we both did have four years of college, though). Then, somewhere in our late 30s and early 40s, we hit a wall. Not having undergraduate degrees prevented us both from doing what we wanted; in his case, taking graduate level courses on historic preservation, in mine, teaching writing. We both finished our undergraduate work and got our degrees. Then I found that not even the local community college would consider letting me do a writing workshop without a graduate degree, despite my having nearly 20 years' experience as a professional writer who had published nonfiction, fiction and poetry. Now I am finishing up an M Ed with a teaching writing concentration. Will it allow me to become a full-time professor some day? Absolutely not. But it will let me teach a workshop or a class part-time on an adjunct level.
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Was it worth it? Maybe. I would never have done it if I had to pay for it, but I work for a university and don't have to pay tuition. Recently, I checked the salaries for full-time professors in my university and I make more as a non-professor with a BA than many of them do with PhDs. There is absolutely NO incentive for me to get a terminal degree. And back when I was in the business world, the more degrees a person had, the more useless they generally were.
Posted by H Jordan on 02/03/2009 at 12:13pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope, As someone who's still paying for her master's degree in journalism a field in which experience counts way more than schooling these are all excellent points. However, I actually feel that the coursework made me a better writer, taught me the craft (I had an entirely different major as an undergrad), connected me with lots of people and mentors in the industry, and gave me the credentials to teach as an adjunct college professor. Of course, the degree did not have any ROI. But then again, I didn't expect it to, so I have no regrets. That being said, I think in light of this economy, there are serious benefits to going back to school just not necessarily full-fledged, high-priced graduate degrees. It may be a lone course in public speaking or Web design that can boost your resume, or a certificate program that can gain you access into a new career path that will make you happier. In short, if you think going into a grad program will mean six-figure job offers, expect to be disappointed (and in severe debt!). But, not all education is a waste of time and money, as long as you have reasonable expectations.
Posted by Dawn Papandrea on 02/03/2009 at 12:18pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
And yet, I can counter each of these points with an example of someone who bucked your system. I think the gist of your article makes sense, for those who are satisfied with ordinary. It also makes sense for those who need ROI on everything they do. Thankfully, I'm neither. I went to grad school for the sheer joy of it. What else is life for? There is a deeper point you are almost touching, but you aren't quite there. I hope you get to it, because I would love to see you write about it.
Posted by deepali on 02/03/2009 at 12:19pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
You should only go to graduate school if you need it for the job you really want (pharmacy, medicine, etc). So many students go to graduate/professional school because they don't know what to do with their undergraduate degree. They rack up huge amounts of debt and still have no direction or interest in the field they studied.
Posted by Andrea on 02/03/2009 at 12:34pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Of course a masters in English is nearly worthless, in terms of employability. But so is a bachelors in English, history, women's studies, music, and all those other liberal arts. Yet you seem to have no problem with the latter. Apparently it's okay to waste four years of time and tuition wandering aimlessly, but not two more after that. I
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guess ya gotta draw the line somewhere.
Posted by Dan on 02/03/2009 at 12:41pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I disagree, Dan. My M.A. in history got me a job. I might have gotten it without the M.A., but I probably would have started at a lower pay level, and my peers would have felt differently. I saw this in action. In my opinion and experience, people who can't figure out what to do with a subject area degree are focused too much on the subject areaand even then, they're not thinking creatively about how to use that specific knowledge.
Posted by KateNonymous on 02/03/2009 at 02:25pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I have to second (third, fourth) that you got the military comment way wrong. The military provides great work experience (not for everyone, sure, but that's the same at any company.) I haven't been in, but we have about 10% military folks in my group. My manager had a 21-year career in the Navy and learned to manage and lead people there, organize processes, etc. etc. It's work experience in a way that grad school definitely is not.
Posted by rismA on 02/03/2009 at 12:44pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I'd like to echo what several posters have said about the military as a career choice. I had an intern in ROTC working for me at one point and the difference between when he left for basic and when he came back to visit was like it was two different people. The downside - being shot or blown up - is pronounced and perhaps that is what you were referring to, but assuming survival, who wouldn't want a veteran on staff if they had a choice? You already know you're getting an employee who is disciplined, brave beyond conventional definitions and knows how to work in a hierarchy in the most challenging conditions imaginable. And that's before you consider the specific training imparted.
Posted by Sean Dougherty on 02/03/2009 at 12:47pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I love this blog. I just love it. I love how you deliver the "facts" and just how you put everything. It's a great, hardcore way to show people to snap out of it and get with the times and stop fooling yourselves. Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!
Posted by Anne on 02/03/2009 at 12:48pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
thank you thank you thank you. i took the GMAT, got recommendations, and wrote essays for multiple MBA programs, but at the last minute i decided not to hit the submit button. thank you for confirming that i made the right decision.
Posted by kevin on 02/03/2009 at 12:49pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
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In general, I agreed with the post. However, your comment about the military is just plain wrong. I served in the Army right after college (in a combat arms specialty no less), left the Army 13 years ago to enter the IT industry, and am now serving as an executive for a global Fortune 500 company. Why? Because the Army taught me leadership, discipline, creative problem - solving, and mental/physical toughness attributes that have served me well in the business world and qualities that many nonveterans (including you, judging from the content of your blog) do not possess. For many kids, rich and poor, one of the best things they can do to start off their professional lives is to serve their country in the military.
Posted by Andy on 02/03/2009 at 12:59pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
this is appalling advice. Are you serious?
Posted by johnK on 02/03/2009 at 01:25pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I did grad school and loved it. Has it helped my career? Not yet. But it was a great two years. Of course, I did about 40% of my studies on comic books.
Posted by Ian on 02/03/2009 at 01:34pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I went to grad school part time (MPA). Paid cash. And I'm really glad I did. I partied my way through undergrad, so grad school gave me an opportunity to be a student when I was in my late 20s and my head was out of my butt. But I also learned A LOT about leadership and management that I wasn't learning at my job. I also learned to be a more critical thinker. And I believe it has helped my career, because I work for an organization where all of us in management have graduate degrees - and I have to do many many presentations for people working in higher ed, who usually have graduate degrees. I do, agree, that grad school is not a panacea for workplace angst. I think if you go back to school, it needs to be for the sake of learning. If you're only going because you think it'll get you more money, then I agree with Penelope - don't go.
Posted by GenerationXpert on 02/03/2009 at 01:37pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Grad school pointlessly delays adulthood. I could not have said it better, also it incurs unnecessary debt
Posted by Moneymonk on 02/03/2009 at 01:42pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
This describes perfectly what my husband and I have experienced. He graduated with a PhD in physics from one of the best programs in the country. After graduation, he was able to find 2 part-time University lecturing positions within driving distance of our home so that we wouldn't have to move and I could keep my job. His annual salary was less than what I make with a BS, and only $10,000 more per year than his stipend for graduate school. After a year on the fast track to an
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early heart attack (but not tenure), he left academia to go into IT. His salary more than doubled and his working hours were cut in half. His corporate job involves some teaching as well, which he loves. He loves physics, he loves teaching, and he doesn't regret going to graduate school, but PhD programs are indeed pyramid schemes.
Posted by Annie on 02/03/2009 at 01:50pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Haven't you done this column before? Without the attack on the military career I mean. Of course my friend who is a pilot in the Navy, and will soon leave with a 20 year retirement with full pay, and a job waiting for him as a commercial pilot (on top of the retirement pay), will sorely disagree. And I successfully changed careers by getting a Masters in Urban Planning and now probably make more than you with better benefits and a better retirement. And I have several lawyer friends who love their job and are making an excess of $500K a year. And I know a branch manager of a librarian with an MLS who makes a $100K a year with great benefits and retirement. Wow, I seem to know more people who are exceptions to your rules than who are examples of your advice. But, at least you provide entertainment value :)
Posted by Sidney on 02/03/2009 at 01:57pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I'm in your boat. I know far more people whose advanced degrees have really helped them than I do people who can't use them.
Posted by Angie on 02/03/2009 at 08:09pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
If you know what you want to do, and doing it requires a master's degree, it makes sense to earn that degree. I have never regretted earning my degree, as it opened the doors I needed to pursue my career goals. (Of course, you'll be in trouble if you "know" you want to be a lawyer and realize after 3 years of law school and lots of debt that you actually don't want to practice law.) Going to school in a recession because you can't find a job and school gives you a "plan" for the next few years, on the other hand, is a bad idea. Job seekers would be much better off investing in a coach and resume professional to ensure that they are well prepared to confront a competitive job market. As a career coach, I work with many job seekers who have thrown up their hands in desperation because they can't find a job. One look at their resumes usually tells me why. A transformed resume and a bit of coaching can make a world of difference. Plus, it's a lot cheaper than grad school and much less work!
Posted by Miriam Salpeter, Keppie Careers on 02/03/2009 at 02:10pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Your comments are only really valid for the US of A.
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In many EU countries, tuition is very low or non-existent, and health insurance is nationalized, making medical school quite affordable by comparison. I have just returned from Latvia, an EU country that is basically in receivership (the farmers are circling their tractors around the Ministry of Agriculture as I type this), and top-level business education has rarely been more popular in Riga. I still consider grad school as a reasonable response to a global recession. You haven't convinced me to adopt your point of view on this.
Posted by Lillian on 02/03/2009 at 02:11pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
As a student in law school right now, I just can't swallow the argument here. I think that the piece is a great way to test your desire to go, but not the be all end all decision-maker. Look the career market is crazy and different for everyone there are thousands of ways to find your path none of which is the "yellow-brick road." And, yes, graduate school is hard, it has to be hard because the world is full of tough questions and hard decisions. If your looking to start your nest-egg maybe grad school is not so conducive to your goal. However, if you are looking to become a professional grad school is your path. The cost of your education is as a professor once told me "good debt" because it is an investment in your future. And if you do well in grad school, which is not hard if your motivations are right, jobs are not hard to get. Look, not everyone needs to go to grad school to be successful, which should be the take home from what Pen is saying, but you do need to set your priorities and decide what you want. Grad school is competitive, and at times nasty, but that's how some people thrive. It forces your to either develop and take the reigns and get what you want out of life. If you think that you better benefit from lateraling careers gaining skills that way, fine, it saves money and builds skills but its not the best answer for us all. I was faced with the decision to go to law school two years ago and I grabbed it. Yes, it was scary, hard, made me hate myself, my professors, my peers, and sometimes life. However, it has given me the ability to see change, network, understand a very wide range of issues, stand tall, defend my ideas, work for change, and maybe along the way earn me a publication. Oh, I also got a job (even an offer from Pen). The meat of it all is finding yourself, who you are and then selling yourself, and you can't sell yourself if you don't know yourself. For me grad school was the ticket to self realization. Something that was not going to come from job jumping gaining experience, I tried it. I needed to be forced to ask and answer hard questions, and if you are stubborn like me give grad school a second thought. Because it is really just what you make of it.
Posted by Nate Johnson on 02/03/2009 at 02:17pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I partially agree and partially disagree with your post. If you are going to a PhD program to escape a bad-job market, then you are being foolish. Even a short PhD is longer than any recession has been in a century. However, graduate school can make a great deal of sense under some circumstances, depending on your career desires. First, a short masters program where you have a stipend and/or your employer pays for it, and when it will add to your career. A MA in education usually adds at least 10% to your salary for minimal effort. An MS/MSE in engineering, science, mathematics, statistics, or CS usually takes 2 years, is free with a stipend and adds to your earning potential. Second,if you have a burning desire to do science, then a PhD is really mandatory. Though if you want to become a professor, especially one with real tenure at a research-university, you have be prepared to fail at your goal, and ask yourself if doing science outside academia is still interesting enough to go to grad school, as that's probably what will happen. Then since there aren't really time-limits
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on PhD's or post-docs, set your own limits as to when you'll leave before you become one of these poor people who spend 15 years training for a career they will never have. As for a PhD or even an MA in the humanities. Well then you, are taking a gamble, since there aren't that many careers for which a grad degree in one of the humanities is required unlike in the sciences, stipends are low or non-existent, you might have to pay tuition, and the odds of getting a decent job minimal.
Posted by Fred on 02/03/2009 at 02:22pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
A degree is like a drivers license, it proves that you have learned to drive, it doesn't prove you are a good driver.
Posted by PostalSystems on 02/03/2009 at 02:24pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Terrible advice. I finished a technical PhD and didn't go into teaching. Just the letters have been useful my current job was only open to PhDs, it's helped me win government grants but the experience was phenomenal. Not just the meta-skills about how to work independently and defend your work, but the *actual research*: discovering something new and publishing it. Look, graduate school isn't for everyone, and some do use it as a safety blanket. But your ridiculous hyperbole ("needlessly delays adulthood") is just lazy writing and needless trollbait. And calling military service a "terrible escape hatch" you've compromised your credibility.
Posted by Bryan on 02/03/2009 at 02:27pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I like the advicedon't try to escape the recession by going to grad school. Straightforward. Grad school is not always the answer and will not always increase your compensation or give you direction in life. Great post.
Posted by Erin on 02/03/2009 at 02:47pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
"And calling military service a "terrible escape hatch" you've compromised your credibility." The last 6 months have made me question a lot of what Penelope considers the "new future and changing of the work place due to Gen X/Y." Many of her theories and ideas are unraveling as the 20-something worker now has an unemployment/layoff rate that is double or triple that of older age groups. I am very curious to see if this will ever be addressed or acknowledged by her.
Posted by Shane on 02/03/2009 at 03:03pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Of course, there are some folks who want a career in hard scientific research and
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the only way to get into the field is a PhD. Recession or not, they follow their dream.
Posted by dunsany on 02/03/2009 at 03:11pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
As an avid reader of your blog and a current active-duty soldier, I just had to interject about your awful comments about those who join the military I joined the Army after teaching high school and elementary French for a year after college. I wanted a challenge, something more rewarding than parent-teacher conferences and explaining to kids why grammar and syntax still matter. What did the military do for me? Well, I was stationed in beautiful Monterey, California for one year, where I learned Arabic, after which I was sent to the East Coast and I soon deployed. Yes, being in Iraq sucked balls, but I was rewarded with a nice stateside assignment in a prestigious locale once I re-deployed from the Middle East. And of course, I hold a Top Secret clearance, meaning that if I want to go to work right away once I leave the service, my prospects are pretty good. Although I was always a good student and upright citizen, the military taught me to endure hardship way beyond what I could ever imagine. I learned to be a true leader, not just a manager, to always put my suboordinates' needs above my own. I am leaving active duty this summer, and guess where I am headed??? Yep, that's right, GRADUATE SCHOOL, and your tax dollars are funding it. After way too many near-death experiences, I know what I want in life now, and I need an MA to do it. So after risking my ass to save yours, Ms. Trunk, I will think of you and smile as I walk across the stage and grab that hard-earned Master's Degree.
Posted by The translator on 02/03/2009 at 03:13pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I loved this post. Think hard about what you are doing with your future, and especially what you are doing in the "Now." Then you cna realize that educational institutions (and their attendant degree) are just one part of a much bigger equation. A lot of people that jump for post grad programs feel they will be entitled to a great future, but then they meet a harsher reality. Read the woman who was laid off aswt the Wall Street Journal's new "laid off" blog, a woman and former VP at BOFA who lived through this reality very recently, has the M.A. but J.O.B.
Posted by gregcnorca*AT*aim on 02/03/2009 at 03:15pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
end with "no J.O.B." at the moment.
Posted by gregcnorca*AT*aim on 02/03/2009 at 03:18pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
You are so right about b-school. I own a company, and entrepreneurship is about balls, not business school. Also, just as you say strategists are INTJs, you can't spell entrepreneur without ENTP. Outside of the artisan flower shop owners, plumbers, carpenters, etc, just about every successful entrepreneur I know is an ENTP. Fewer of those four letters you have, less chance you're a natural entrepreneur. Recently went to a meeting of people who had started successful companies, and it was an ADD paradise.
Posted by Dave on 02/03/2009 at 03:15pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
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Penelope, be honest, is this a new post? I'm sure you've written this before. You said on Twitter that you wrote something fast at 6am because Ryan censored your post. So did you just take an old post and reformat it? I know you have a lot of new readers, but you have lots of longstanding ones too! The only part that doesn't sound familiar is the French chicken farm - which is, admittedly, a cool story. And, um, but is Ryan your boyfriend? Because it kinda sounded that way on Twitter.
Posted by Caitlin on 02/03/2009 at 03:16pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I started a conversation about this on Twitter because I thought it was very interesting. Here is the best Tweet that I received to help you prove your point: joewaters @danschawbel Funny, Dan. Few years ago they asked the outgoing dean of Harvard Business if he thought an MBA was worth it: "NO."
Posted by Dan Schawbel on 02/03/2009 at 03:19pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
This is an old conversation. Grad school does not make a lot of sense as an investment in most cases - but it is still worth it if the person (a) enjoys being a student and doing research and (b) can afford it. Grad school is a safe heaven if you want a vacation from a career. And the cost of this vacation goes down in recession, if the alternatives are a lower-paying job or being out of work altogether. Still, before taking a grad school vacation, consider if you can afford it.
Posted by jane on 02/03/2009 at 03:36pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I'd like to go to grad school, but only because I think it would be an interesting way to learn more about what I do for a living. Then again, I'd MUCH rather be a guest lecturer at a university someday. That way I don't have to be the one sitting still for an hour or two. I hate sitting still. Besides, I'm self employed, I don't need a degree to get a job.
Posted by curiously random on 02/03/2009 at 03:57pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I think you could have been more clear about the difference between going to grad school because you know exactly what you want to do, and the path to that job leads through grad school, and going to grad school because you are lost. I have seen people in both circumstances, and the difference is striking. If a person is honest with herself, she knows which category she's in.
Posted by Becky on 02/03/2009 at 03:59pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Dave, I should have read your post before I posted my own:
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"You are so right about b-school. I own a company, and entrepreneurship is about balls, not business school. Also, just as you say strategists are INTJs, you can't spell entrepreneur without ENTP. Outside of the artisan flower shop owners, plumbers, carpenters, etc, just about every successful entrepreneur I know is an ENTP. Fewer of those four letters you have, less chance you're a natural entrepreneur. Recently went to a meeting of people who had started successful companies, and it was an ADD paradise." Um, yeah. I'm an INTP and I know what you mean.
Posted by curiously random on 02/03/2009 at 04:00pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I don't completely agree with your comments. Doctors make a LOT OF MONEY. I have cousins, family, friends and more who make quite a bit of money as doctors. Surgeons make 600,000 in the first year after med school!! And even general practitioners make 100 to 200k after med school. Plus having your own practice is more relaxing than many other well paying jobs and pays off really well. I have a lot of friends going to medical school and I have no doubt it's going to pay off well. I also think 1 year Masters program, especially in the UK, are not too costly and definitely worth it if you're interested in working in the UN or international development. There are a lot of positions in the UN and UNICEF that require you to have a Master's degree in so and so, and it is also not too expensive since it's only a year long.
Posted by Akhila on 02/03/2009 at 04:19pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I'm just glad my wife's oncologist decided to take the time and spend the money and effort to go to grad school.
Posted by jrandom42 on 02/03/2009 at 04:20pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I think the military has the same caveat that graduate school does. There are great programs in both places that lead to fantastic opportunities and jobs. But if you go into either lost, with the thought that it's your only good option, it won't go well. Yes, the armed forces won't leave you in debt. But you often need to have a good recruiter and great test scores (and great credit scores) to get a shot at the plum learning opportunities and advancement. And relatively few get the military experience in the commercials (fighter pilots and warriors and such). And, of course, there is the getting shot at part. Like any big decision, it's a big decision with upsides and downsides.
Posted by Laurie on 02/03/2009 at 04:22pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Hi Penelope, Great article. I earned my MA right after finishing my undergraduate degree, and like many have mentioned, went to grad school initially to "postpone adulthood;" I wasn't sure as to what I wanted to do. I agree with many of the comments here simply having a degree doesn't necessarily get you ahead in your career, and it can take some strong negotiating skills to persuade someone that you're as adept a candidate as someone who may have been working whilst you were in Grad school. However, the thing(s) that helped me get my foot in the door (and got me a "real"
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job before I even finished my Thesis and had my MA in hand) was interning/working whilst in Grad school at companies that interested me, and, writing my thesis on something that was incredibly relevant to the field I wished to enter. That in itself was enough experience and proof for many companies that I knew what I was talking about, and I was an adept candidate. It doesn't matter whether you go to Grad school or you stay in the professional space, all employers are looking for (in the recession or otherwise) is whether or not you can take your skills and knowledge and apply them in a meaningful way. If you're able to do this with the skills and knowledge you garner while at Grad school, then maybe it is a good decision for you. But I don't think that anyone can make a blanket statement about Grad school one way or another recession or not. It's not for everyone, and it's not the band-aid for life's problems. As an aside, there have definitely been some benefits to having an MA: I know that having a graduate degree has helped me earn more money, and achieve better roles in both of the companies I've worked for. Like everything, you have to be interested, and you have to be able to truly apply what you've learned in a unique and meaningful way in order for it to be "worth it" in terms of your finances and your time. -Melissa
Posted by Melissa Daniels on 02/03/2009 at 04:26pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope, this article reflects the conclusion that I recently came to in planning my career path. I'm a fortune 100 software developer in my 40s. I can get funded to take a part time MBA, but what doors would it open? Wall Street? Wouldn't want that even if if the downturn wasn't a factor. So there's really no point. Better to invest the time in building side businesses and personal brand. I can gather any knowledge that I'm missing on a targeted basis for what I need rather than sitting in front of a scattergun load of random knowledge of questionable relevance.
Posted by Mike Stankavich on 02/03/2009 at 05:03pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
"Military is the terrible escape hatch for poor kids" You could not be more wrong! That is just pablum people (on the left) are fed. Mauri has it right. I went back to my 20 year reunion of my high school in a poor area of Arkansas. All of my friends that enlisted are doing tremendous. They have degrees, are entrepreneurs, etc. My military service paved the way to college for me and gave me experience leading a dozen people at 19. My brother enlisted, was awarded a ROTC scholarship and has been in 20 years. As a new grad, he was in charge of dozens of people and a many $ in resources. In the years since, he has even commanded a ship. Not everyone gets a 651ft. long ship with a crew of 350, but you get the drift. No doubt is sucks for some. But your statement is one many of us who have served find insulting and ignorant.
Posted by The Opinionator on 02/03/2009 at 05:06pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
From my perspective (as an older grad student)I think there were some (bitter)kernals of truth to what P had to say about grad school and Phd's. Particularly in regards to law school. If we had a stable middle-class society with some sort of reliable safety net in terms of unemployment comp, health insurance, and affordable education, going to grad school would not be such a problematic decision. However, we have none of the above and one must think very carefully about the
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debt load of higher education. Having said that, there are certain jobs that won't let you in the door without that masters. Ultimately, one has to be dead realistic about the job market, current skill sets and potentially acquired skill sets. And then do a cost/benefit analysis. I did just that analysis before returning to school - and I should disclose that I don't have children and a mortgage to provide for, so that made the decision much easier.
Posted by pip on 02/03/2009 at 05:39pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Did you flunk out of grad school or something? Geez. Well, at least you are writing about something practical and not "The Farmer." Those posts were painful and better suited for your personal diary. Zero career advice in any of those posts.
Posted by Sereita Cobbs on 02/03/2009 at 05:47pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Excellent and timely (for me) post. When I got my M.Ed., I was absolutely passionate about teaching. It did open some doors for me, although they weren't financial ones. Now I've been offered a position in an educational leadership cohort which would give me the opportunity to earn an E.Ed. The thing is, I'm no longer as passionate as I once was, and I'm looking for more options, which as you so aptly pointed out, can be found outside of grad school. I really needed to read this, THIS week. Thanks.
Posted by Michelle on 02/03/2009 at 05:51pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Lots of good points here Penelope. It definitely makes me think a little more seriously about why I've been wanting to go back to school. Part of me feels like I'm supposed to being that a bachelors degree means far less these days than it used to. Part of me wants to because I still feel stupid when I talk to highly educated people. Like maybe if I went back that second degree would make me feel more validated and confident in conversations with highly intellectuals. And part of me wants to go back because i'm a student for life, i want to keep learning, i want a challenge, i want to find something to be better at. However, the truth is, the real world has taught me a lot. I continue to express to new grads not to go right into grad school after undergrad. I think a few years of real world experience is vital for gaining perspective on your future as an adult rather than postponing the inevitable for a few more years.
Posted by Sassy Molassy on 02/03/2009 at 06:05pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I agree w/ P up to a point. I've been told that a degree either undergrad or graduate is basically corporate America's "hazing" ritual. It's your entrance ticket to be able to play on their playground. I'm currently evaluating going back to grad school to get a Masters in social work to become a therapist. I wish there's some other ways around it but without a MSW and getting a license as a LCSW, you basically won't even be let into the ballpark let along the dug out. So grad school makes sense if the career direction you're going into make you. Other than that stay away from it. PS: If anybody's got insights on MSW, LCSW or careers in social work I would
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appreciate some feedback!
Posted by Isaac on 02/03/2009 at 06:45pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Corporate America is centered on greed and the manipulation of various market forces including the labor market. Graduate school is just another vehicle for indoctrinating people to become effective indentured servants. That is, for those clowns that choose to enter corporate slavery. Thankfully, the current American economy and modern financial system is crumbling and will never return to its former glory. Unfortunately, many of you will suffer in the process. In the end, the world will be a better place.
Posted by JoeG on 02/03/2009 at 07:59pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope, I've been reading your blog for a few years now, and you've said this (or something similar) repeatedly. But I just don't buy it. For some people, yeah, it might not be worth it. But as many have already said, there are some jobs that absolutely require an advanced degree. As regards an MBA: I just asked my former boss, HR exec at a reputable company with more than 10,000 employees, whether it's still worth it. Her thoughts? That an MBA isn't as impressive as it used to be, but it's still more impressive than not having one. She also mentioned that, if you have a great job, you should stay in it and do night classes, but if you don't, then it's still a good option to dig in and get a Master's in something that's relevant. I don't believe that your advice on this issue applies as broadly as you seem to think it does. We each need to weigh our options on our own. But I do agree with you in that the cost (both time and money) REALLY needs to be counted before making the commitment.
Posted by Angie on 02/03/2009 at 08:06pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
You completely blew it with your military comments and I haven't seen you respond so I'll just pile on. After 8 years in the military to boot I think I'm qualified to comment. "They limit your future in ways you cant even imagine" Help me with this one. How exactly is anyone limited by having served in the military? "Military is the terrible escape hatch for poor kids, and grad school is the terrible escape hatch for rich kids." I did both and know plenty of people who have as well. What does that make me? Why do you think that people who are joining the military are running from something? How many people with military backgrounds do you even know? I've never been laid off. Never had a problem finding a well paying and for the most part satisfying job. Damn you pissed me off with this post.
Posted by David on 02/03/2009 at 08:14pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Penelope,
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thanks for the great advice! can I ask how you decided to write this post because all last week I was talking with my girlfriend about if We should go into grad school right after college, especially with the way the economy is. You have given me some good things to think about. thanks again!
Posted by Andy Santamaria on 02/03/2009 at 08:20pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
"Grad school pointlessly delays adulthood." Are you kidding me?! I went back to school because I was tired of bouncing between jobs, trying to find something that fit. I went back to school to focus my life, begin a career in something I enjoyed, and start being a grown-up. Going back to school was the most adult decision I had ever made up to that point. Unsubscribed.
Posted by Recent grad grad on 02/03/2009 at 08:53pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Thank you for saying what needs to be said. You don't hafta be in school trying for a piece of paper to learn. You can learn for free or better yet, get paid to learn. Or conversely, take the $50,000 that you would've spent on grad school and fail at a business. It'll be much more educational. Dale
Posted by Dale on 02/03/2009 at 09:08pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
I'd like to reiterate what Corky said - I was laid off from my first job out of college after only 10 months. But in those 10 months, I learned a ton. Now, I have an opportunity to take a job that offers free grad school. Hm, the dilemma. It's definitely not my first decision, and there are plenty of other crappy jobs where I could learn and have my nights free to blog and read all those stacks of books in my apartment I've been meaning to get to, so this post was just what I needed. Thanks.
Posted by Rachel on 02/03/2009 at 10:13pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
For those who want to go into a "profession" grad school is a must. I am grateful that the nurse who was on-call when I had a complicated delivery with my second child had a master's degree in nursing with a speciality in obstetrics. She saved his life. I am grateful for the Dr. who performed my husband's surgery last week - her years in grad school benefitted us immensely. I am also grateful for the employment lawyer that I partner with to serve my clients in my HR consulting practice - her expertise in invaluable to me. She's a fabulous, fun person and if she didn't have her law degree I probably never would have met her and gotten to work with her. Etc., etc. You get the point - if you want to contribute to society in one of these ways, you need the degree. For the rest of us whose work is more "generalist" in nature - it's possible that whether grad school is valuable or not is entirely up to the indvidual. Taking out excessive loans that you will have trouble paying back for any reason - school, house, car, etc. - is never a good idea and sets you up for stress and unhappiness. But if you can find a reasonable way to pay for grad school grad school (mine was paid for with an employer tuition reimbursement benefit) and it is something you
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would enjoy, then go for it! The networking, the friendships, and the learning are energizing and can build your career in ways that you might not be able to predict in advance, but if you embrace the experience they will definitely pay off. That said - you can also have a great career if you don't go to grad school - it really depends on the individual.
Posted by Peggy on 02/03/2009 at 10:15pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Coming from the mouth of a corporate recruiter (10 years in the business, all in IT) a degree above and beyond the typical undergrad will absolutely earn you more money. I've worked with: - small firms of 100 to 400 employees - mid tier fortune 500 firms - spent two years at a Big 4 consulting firm They all had two things in common with higher level degrees: more money and better opportunities at higher levels. Granted if you get your upper level degree b/c you aren't ready to work and you just stay there for lack of direction, then that doesn't do much for you. However, if you have your undergrad and you choose to work a few years and then go back - it will pay off. I see it on a daily basis. Just a side note, when I graduated from my graduate program (part time while I was still working) I found a new job within 4 weeks of posting my info with a $13K raise. You can bet I negotiated a higher dollar amount b/c of my degree. You make a generalization that might be correct at face value, but upon deeper consideration and specific conversation around degree, work experience, inner push and self esteem - your argument has multiple flaws. As with any generalizations - they aren't that simple. It's like saying tomatoes cure cancer, it is one small piece of a bigger and more complex equation.
Posted by bhline on 02/03/2009 at 10:39pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Graduate school is for people who just graduated college and can't find a job and need to defer their student loans a little while longer. The problem is, these people end up borrowing more money for graduate school, and two years later, they'll either have to start a PhD to buy more deferral time or start making loan payments, which will then be higher than they would have been had they not gone to graduate school in the first place. *this* is worse than a pyramid scheme. this is my life. hahahahahahahaha.
Posted by jenx67 on 02/03/2009 at 11:18pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
Interesting..you and Sybil over at Bitch, PhD (http://bitchphd.blogspot.com/2009/02/just-say-no.html> have hit on the same issues here today. See her post for further elaboration of these issues.
Posted by Daddio on 02/03/2009 at 11:36pm | permalink | Reply to this comment
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I do not have an MBA and I started making 90K right out of college. It's a matter of not settling for any job - oh yeah, and leadership and initiative play a large role too! Stop looking for substantiating documentation (such as degrees) to boost your value. Assign yourself the value you want by building a reputation for yourself and not undermining your own efforts. It is a known fact that most millionaires do not have advanced degrees. (I am not talking about the millionaire elite but rather the "middle-class" millionaire. What it comes down to is hard work, connections and a passion for what it is you do. With these three ingredients, you can't miss. I know, I live it.
Posted by Angela on 02/04/2009 at 12:06am | permalink | Reply to this comment
For the record, I just made reference to millionaires because it seems that every hard working, average American measures themselves by the millionaire yard stick; the "I will have made it when I bank 1 million dollars". Essentially, what I meant to say was that you don't need an advanced degree to be successful, by any yard stick! The only barrier to your success is, usually, yourself.
Posted by Angela on 02/04/2009 at 12:13am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I loved undergrad, but I worked all the way through (three jobs at a time). After a few years in the workplace, I decided to go back to law school. I thought it could be a way to transition from journalism to a career in environmental law, to expand my mind while focusing on learning without other distractions, and to gain a peer group I didn't get while working 60 hours a week in undergrad. Wrong on all counts. I went for all the right reasons - I love learning, I needed the specific degree, and I wanted the career. Unfortunately, law school was NOTHING like undergrad. Administrators were exploitative - job statistics were a lie, and there were TWO full-time employees in the career services office! That's one career counselor for every 100 students. Very few professors paid attention to students. Nothing they were half-heartedly pretending to teach in the classroom was relevant to the actual jobs you get after graduation anyway, but the classes take so much time (often 80 pages of reading a night) that it was next to impossible to gain work experience and contacts. Finally, stressed out people competing to be one of the 10, out of 200 students, who actually get a job in the first year, working against each other in a curved grading system, do NOT make for a fun peer group. People don't realize that the schools lie about employment statistics and that private student loans don't operate like public student loans. The idea of "only go if you don't have to borrow," is laughable, btw. Do you have $135,000 lying around? (Plus opportunity cost). Anyway, the loans can't be discharged in bankruptcy, there are few rules about exploitative practices, and they compound quarterly if you don't get a high-paying job right away to pay down interest. And even if you do earn $140,000 (Which means you had to have graduated from 10 schools, or you were one of about 10 in your top-50 school), you'll still be paying at least $1,000 a month for about 35 years. Also, you'll likely be laid off from your 80-hour-per-weekminimum job after two years, because law firms weed associates ruthlessly. Only about 8% of all associates go on to become partner. The other 92% slept at the office, endured abusive partners (ranging from weird to scary), and seriously injured their health, for nothing. Most people won't be in the 10% who get to compete to be the 8% who make partner, anyway. Most people contract (awful, no job security, and no benefits), or tend bar, for about a year until they find an entry-level job. Then, most entry-level
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jobs pay about $40,000. So that's about half their income going to pay for three years spent teaching themselves con-law and other useless subjects, in the company of totally stressed out assholes they never want to see again. Thanks for trying to tell people Penelope. I hope at least a few people listen.
Posted by Slightly Bitter Lawyer on 02/04/2009 at 12:20am | permalink | Reply to this comment
I mostly agree with your comments about B-School. I'm not saying that UWMadison is a top tier b-school, but, at least at UW-Madison, you actually need to have your future career aspirations figured out before you can even apply. Everyone I graduated with is currently working in their concentration. The ones that are unemployed or working in jobs they hate are the ones that specialized in entrepreneurship. I think there were 16 people in the program when I graduated and only 3 have had successful business ventures. You just can't teach creativity.
Posted by Wisco on 02/04/2009 at 12:43am | permalink | Reply to this comment
Hello, (One more time I'll beg you to excuse my french, because, indeed, I am french.) I'm OK with you on the major part on this subject. But, as far I can tell, it seems that you have a diploma yourself and you did go to school. Am I wrong ? It's pretty easy for people who get a diploma to say that school is useless. You're right, school will not teach to an entrepreneur to be an entrepreneur BUT it will learn to him how masterize a huge amount of technical tools very useful for an entrepreneur. What if you have no Business Angel, not a lot of money to spend at the beginning ? You cannot afford Public Relation Agency, Lawyer, Business Plan conception and stuff. You have to do everything by yourself. Yes, you can learn on the field but honestly, it's a gap in your planning. You have to learn everything from the beggining. And most of all, you have to learn some stuff which is not your domain of skills. I know that most of US Business Schools are better than French ones. But I'll speak for French one because I know their program. They study the Work Law, the International Law, company administration, technical book keeping, economics and some language. So, as a young entrepreneur who have no diploma, I have to learn all these things by myself on the field, make some mistakes due to the lack of technical knowledge and of course, as I'm not a native english speaker, I have to learn Business English all by myself. Where I get the time to manage my own company, heh ? I had to prepare myself and learn all these things during six months before really launch my company. It's time wasted. Time which was not been wasted if I get to school few years back from now. All I'm saying is that you are right. School do not learn the "Spirit" of an entrepreneur but technically speaking its help a lot. I'll take myself as an exemple. As I said, I'm french, 27 years old, without ANY diploma (not even the GED or the High School Diploma). I begun to work very early (around 16). Well , I know that US Recruiters like pretty much the extraschool activities and don't focus on diplomas for entry/middle jobs but in Europe, a lot of recruiters are "old school". I can remember five years ago, when I was looking
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for a job, I got two excuses from recruiters :
Recruiter 1 : I'm sorry Sir, you are over skilled for this job. We cannot recruit you at an entry level job like this one. Recruiter 2 : I'm sorry Sir, this is not an entry level job, we cannot recruit you without any diploma. Well, at this time I thought to change of career. I asked myself : Ok, what I'm good at ? What can I give in exchange of money ? I found one of my hobbies was valuable and break through a new career where I was hired, good at and finally, launched my own company few months ago from now. I am a specialized recruiter now, I thing the fact of do not have any diploma helps me to focus on what is important of the job that I have to fullfill with someone. But I will never forget that the school helps a lot to get technical knowledge and I really miss that at the moment. I don't know if I was really clear on this one. I'm still working on my poor english skill, sorry about that.
Posted by Eric on 02/04/2009 at 01:26am | permalink | Reply to this comment
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Dont Try To Dodge The Recession With Grad School

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Similarly, don't try to dodge a rabbit with nimbleness. It seldom works.

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