Transcript of the Testimony of Charles Hartley

Date: December 5, 2013 Volume: I Case: In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation

Printed On: December 18, 2013

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Charles Hartley

In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 1

IN RE:

JOPLIN CRITICAL INVESTIGATION

SWORN STATEMENT OF

CHARLES HARTLEY

Taken on Thursday, December 5, 2013, from 10:32 a.m. to

10:58

a.m., at the law offices of Juddson H. McPherson, LLC, 626 S. Byers, in the City of Joplin, County of Jasper, State of Missouri, before SHARON K. ROGERS, C.C.R.650, a Certified Court Reporter and a Notary Public within and for the County of Jasper, and State of Missouri.

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In Re: Charles Hartley

Joplin Critical Investigation

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APPEARANCES

MR. THOMAS E. LORAINE Loraine & Associates, LLC 4075 Osage Beach Pkwy., Suite 300 Osage Beach, MO 65065

tellaw@loraineandassociates.com

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Charles Hartley

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S T I P U L A T I O N

IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED that this Sworn Statement may be taken by steno-mask type recording by SHARON K. ROGERS, a Certified Court Reporter, and afterwards reduced into typewriting. It is further stipulated that the signature of the witness is hereby waived, and that said Sworn Statement of said witness shall be of the same force and effect as though said witness had read and signed Sworn Statement.

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Charles Hartley

In Re:

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Page 4 I N D E X Page/Line DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE . . . 5-4

E X H I B I T S

Exhibit #A.

6-12

Advice of Rights

Note:

Exhibits in separate binder

(sic) - typed as spoken (ph.) - phonetic

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Charles Hartley

In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHARLES HARTLEY Having been first duly sworn and examined, testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE: Q. I'm going to read you this Advice of Rights form. "I wish to advise you that you are

being questioned as part of an official investigation by the City of Joplin. will be asked questions related and specifically directed to the performance of your official duties of fitness for office. You are entitled to all the rights and privileges guaranteed by the laws of the Constitution of the State and the Constitution of the United States, including the right not to be compelled to incriminate yourself. I further wish to advise you that You

if you refuse to testify or to answer questions relating to the performance of your official duties, you will be subject to departmental charges, which could result in your dismissal from your official duties. you do answer these statements may be used against you in relation to subsequent department charges, but not in any subsequent If

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In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. A. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. criminal proceedings. I have read and fully

understand the Advice of Rights as it appears above. This information has also been read Mr.

to me prior to answering any questions." Hartley, did you read that and did you understand that Advice of Rights? Yes, sir. Would you execute that for me, sir? the 5th of December. your signature. (Witness complies) Mr. Hartley, have you executed Exhibit #A that I have read to you and you've read to yourself? Correct. And it's marked Exhibit #A, is it not? Yes. Okay.

Today is

Print your name above

Mr. Hartley, how long have you worked

for the City? Slightly under 40 years. 40 years? Yes, sir. What do you do? I'm currently the title officially is Engineering Tech. It's an engineering

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In Re:

Joplin Critical Investigation

Page 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Q. Q. A. Q. A. A. Q. A. A. Q. Q. department position, currently involved in outdoor construction inspection. Did you have anything to do with the pool that was constructed, I believe it was in one of the parks? In Schifferdecker, yes, I was. And that pool, what department was that under? Would have been under Parks as far as funding and managing. I believe that pool was scheduled to be opened on an arbitrary date by the City Manager, is that right? Yes, we put opening date that swim season which was June 1st, right in there. June 1st of what year? 2012. Schifferdecker was your department manager? Would have been Parks Manager which is under Public Works, yes. And that would have been under City Manager Rohr? Yes, I believe so. And tell me that arbitrary date of June 1st. Was the area prepared and ready in accordance

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Page 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. A. with that June 1st? We missed the June 1st mainly because of weather conditions that winter that kept us from pouring some of the concrete. Legitimate reasons? Yes. And the City Manager was angry about that? Yes. And tell me what he told you to do? I don't remember him specifically telling me something to do, me personally, but through the rumor mill for lack of a better word he was pushing very hard that it was absolutely necessary that it would be open by that date strictly as I take it from a P.R. point of view. We'd been promising this pool for years and we've been promising it next spring and now we can't deliver so it's going to make us look bad and ultimately the City Manager. So what did he do to try to meet that deadline? He took shortcuts?

No, no, there were no shortcuts taken at all. It was mostly just verbal stuff. We have to

do it, we have to do it, we have to do it. And of course the return conversation would

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Page 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Q. be I can't make it happen, I can't control the weather, I can't make these people work 24 hours a day, this and that. So there

weren't any forceful moves in that project to cut corners or anything like that. Tell me what department chief did you work under most of your 40 years? I'm assuming? Yeah, several. Who was the last one? The last one was Jack Schaller. How do you spell that? S-C-H-A-L-L-E-R. Jack Schaller. Have you ever heard the City More than one,

Manager abuse Schaller? I guess not personally, just I talked to Jack a lot, we were fairly close, and I could tell when something was working on him and I go, you know, are you okay? He'd go, well, you

know, he's been talking with Mark and he's wanting to do - Jack was smart, he never would be specific, but he would always tell him that it's the same thing, I want you to do this, I can't really make that happen, you have to make that happen and you have to make

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Page 10 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A. Q. A. Q. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. it by a certain date. It always got back to,

I heard the phrase myself several times from Mark, it is not you or a career, it is mine. So it all got back, always went back to Mark and how it's going to affect his view from the public and his career. So whether or not it was feasible or not there would be abuse if Jack or some other employee under Mark Rohr would not move mountains to achieve what his desires were? I think there was always that implied, what's the word, intimidation. Intimidation? Yeah. This is real, this intimidation? Well, yes. What kind of environment is that to work under? It sucks. Pretty bad, huh? To put it in legal terms, yes, sir. Had you ever had a City Manager that you worked under be like that before? No, this City Manager, it's not the first one I've been up against fairly often, but

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Page 11 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. typically before they were isolated somewhere in their office, maybe it's because of the years I've gotten in and the projects I've been involved in I'm closer to that upper management part, but I don't recall one that's ever been so intimidating. It was actually abusive, would you say? That's I think a strong word. Certainly the environment to work under is not a healthy one? Right. Sure. Can I relate another story to you? Please do.

In '06 I believe is when we moved into the Newman Building after about a year's worth of work in there. Our Finance Director at that

time, who was just a sweetheart of a lady, she soon quit after that and I found her on the fourth floor back in the break room one day and she was standing there looking out the window and she was crying. And of course

I asked her, you know, is there something that any of us can do to help with whatever is wrong, and she goes, no, she had just left Mark's office again and he had I guess verbally lambasted her for not doing

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Page 12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Q. A. Q. A. something and he had indicated to her that he would like to force her out. I don't know if

that's the exact words, but that was the gist. And she was crying because she did not Didn't intend to leave. She

want to leave.

didn't go into specifics. What was this girl's name? Gosh, if you hadn't asked me I could have just rattled it right off. Well, think about it. I'll think of it here in a minute. But

anyway she had no intention of quitting, but within a month I'd say she had turned in her resignation and she left. This has happened more than one time during the years you've watched Mark as City Manager? That's the most personal time I've seen it with another employee other than through Jack and David Hertzberg, because they were always just totally stressed when they came back from Mark's office. I'm sure they got the

it's not your career, it's my career speech. I'm still trying to think of her name. Cooper was her last name.

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Page 13 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. Finance Director Cooper? Yes. Q. It started with a D. I'm almost there.

What else can you relate to me about these

matters? Oh, let me think a moment. I had one dealing

with Mark personally in his office that had to do with the depot, downtown depot, and I think there are still plans somewhere to turn that into a ring area, a public area to again try to draw more into the downtown. And I

designed a layout per Mark's story of what he wanted to do that, a certain building, a certain number of buildings, a certain number of parking spots, and had to take into account the terrain down there with the viaduct in the way and how to do all the traffic and this and that, so I presented him with two or three options, you know, put the building here, here is where I think it fits the best. And he goes, no, that is not the Okay, yes, sir.

vision I have, do it again.

And I never did come up with one that he said that's it. He didn't give you any specific instructions then, huh?

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Page 14 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. He kept telling me to put the building here, I want the building here, I want it here and here, I want a bridge between them and I want it to face this way, but I could not design it that way within reasonable costs to make it happen. He never did okay anything I did

and it's since been let out to some other firm as far as I know. But again he told me

that it is not my career, it's his career that is on the line and I need to do that. Was his position that money was not a restraint, the cost factor was not a restraint, it was just aesthetics? his position? He never did say it was a money thing specifically, it was always to me it was just a P.R., a public perception of him. never discuss money with me, no. Well, what I meant was, his designs, he didn't care about the economic costs of these things, it was just the aesthetics that were important in the design work? I couldn't say honestly whether that's true or not. All right. What other matters do you have He would Is that

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Page 15 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. A. for me? I guess the most recent was our cleansing on the fourth floor. Tell me about that. With David Hertzberg, Steve Cope, and ultimately Jack Schaller. Again I don't have

the complete insights to personnel files and personnel matters so it may - I'm sure there are things I can't factor in. But what I saw

constantly was David stressed out trying to meet Mark's deadlines, Mark's commandments. I saw Jack constantly fighting maybe even with David to try to keep things from happening that we could not afford or shifting of funds to do this one in front of this one. Those were just things I would see, but as far as dollar amounts and where they went and why they happened I don't know. I

just felt knowing those three men that it was contrite, the whole situation with Steve Cope being terminated, David being demoted, and Jack ultimately could not deal with Mark anymore, specifically saying that to me, he could not work where things like this were happening and ultimately our floor has just

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Page 16 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Q. A. A. Q. A. Q. Q. -Those were all professional engineers, weren't they? I don't know if Steve Cope. The other two were? But Jack and David were, yes. So do we want to call this creating a hostile work environment? Is that what we want to

call this for these three guys that that's what he did? That is probably somewhere I don't really want to go. I mean you can use whatever word you want. mean certainly what you're saying is it was stressful for these three? It was stressful. Stressful on anybody around? Yes. Do you believe that it was proper supervision methods? Not in my view, no. And that's what you meant by contrite, to get rid of these three guys? Yes. Do you know why he would have that reason to I

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Page 17 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. A. Q. A. Q. A. do that? Do you have any answers?

I don't have specifics other than it's his career. He didn't want to play ball I guess

a hundred percent. And do what he wanted to do? I'm assuming, yes. And as a result the Engineering Department is pretty well decimated? Yes, we had two other engineers - let me back up. We have three engineers, one being new,

Nick Heatherly who is the new Public Works Director. The other two engineers I know are

both seriously looking because they don't want to follow-up in the same mess. What are those gentlemen's names? Dave Hunt. Hunt? Uh-huh, and Dan Johnson. And they're professional engineers, also? Dan is. EI -Engineer in Training? Yes, that's it. EIT. EIT, yes. Dave is I don't know if they call it

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Page 18 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A. Q. A. Q. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Q. A. A. Q. But neither really want to continue under this kind of stressful environment? That's correct. And Dave has told me since

the day he was here he intended to be here the rest of his career. He came here with the intent to stay with the City. How long has Dave been there? Dave has been there 3 years, maybe 4. fairly young guy. Looked at long-term He's a

planning and the City is kind of where he wanted to stay. Dan Johnson also has been -Never heard him say one way or the other. How long has he been with the City? Dan has been there since about '05. And you're certain these men are trying to leave this environment? Yes. Anything else you can tell me? Did you

understand the method that was used at the newspaper saying that Cope basically was -A thief. That's your words, yeah. I mean that's

basically what they said, wasn't it? He and David, both, yes.

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Page 19 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. A. Q. Q. A. Q. Q. A. Q. A. And that was a press release from Mark? Was it? That's what I'm asking you. I don't recall who released it, but I'm sure it had to be approved by Mark. I'm pretty

sure everything that goes in the paper has to go through Mark as far as public relations. This wasn't really a matter of being a thief. Can you explain what the real problem was there? As I understand it the funding that they claimed is missing was just uncollected funds as part of a fee on building permits. And

over the last 10 or 11 years it just has not been collected and it accumulated up to whatever that dollar amount was. That was true before they even took these positions? That would be correct, yes. So it was something about the software system that was being used and they didn't understand how to put the information in? My understanding. Been a longstanding problem? Obviously, yes. In their own words it's been

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Page 20 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Q. A. Q. A. 11 years so my point in conversations was how does it go 11 years going through audits every year and we get stellar audits and we get a Finance Director that gets plaques on our wall because everything is perfect, but yet when something comes up not perfect it's nobody's fault but the guy at the bottom. just found that odd. David -David? David Hertzberg. The guy, he wouldn't cuss He is so -And Cope, if you knew I

if you put a match to his ear. Very professional?

He's very professional, he's very Christian, and he's very conscious of his Christianity. He will not say a bad thing about anybody. mean he wouldn't say a bad thing about Mark. You could tell he was about ready to bust into tears. So to accuse David of being I

negligent in funding and handling funds that's just ridiculous. He always seemed to

be the scapegoat in every newspaper story, Dave Hertzberg, the Public Works Director let this go for ten years, and that is not true. Are you glad to be at a position of

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Page 21 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. A. A. Q. Q. A. A. Q. retirement? Absolutely. You don't want to be in this environment either? No, I am fortunate to be right at retirement age. If it wasn't this environment I would

probably go another three years until I'm 65, but I'm fortunate enough with the City pension and other stuff I can walk away from it, gladly walk away from it. you'll be bored to death. Everybody goes

I doubt it, but it

doesn't matter, I don't have to get up and come here every day. So you don't look forward to coming to work like you used to before Mark was here? No. Do you believe Mark is the cause of this environment? that? Again I see the stress in David and Jack and others -And yourself? And myself because their stress trickles down to the whole floor, fourth floor, our department, so I guess that, yes, it comes No doubt in your mind about

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Page 22 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. A. Q. A. Q. Q. from upper management styles. And you haven't really witnessed that throughout any time during your 40 years except for this guy, Mark Rohr? Correct. Okay. Do you have anything else that you Let me ask you this.

want to tell me?

You're aware that there's a dispute that - I was asked to come down here and talk about the dispute between the Board members. You're aware of that, aren't you? Yes, sir. Do you have an opinion as to is Mark contributing to that dispute or do you just not know? I know all the Councilmen fairly well, but I'm not really in the inner circle to know what their conversations are. I know there

are ones that don't get along with Mark and there are some that support him. So to that issue Mark does play a role in it to the best of your knowledge? I would assume so, yes, sir. seat. Has favorites and not favorites? He is the head

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Page 23 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. A. Yeah, that's politics in general, I'm sure. Okay. Good luck on your retirement.

I just thought of something, if I may. Yes. Harold McCoy who was a long time Public Works Director here, he started basically in the same position I started in which was general laborer with the city crews in the summer. He worked his way up through school, engineering degree and became Public Works Director. Extremely intelligent man, He was not always the

extremely fair man. most kind man.

He would get in your face if

you needed it, which was fine if you needed it, but he would back you up. If you did

something wrong it didn't really bother him, you were trying to do something so, you know, if you're not doing anything you're not going to make mistakes. He did a lot for the City.

He knew probably anything you wanted to ask about the City. If you had a question about

a catch basin somewhere on the other side he knew exactly where it was and what it was. He designed a lot of it. But as soon as Mark

got here and Mark laid down whatever marching

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Page 24 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. A. Q. Q. orders he was laying out for his staff Harold left. He says I am not going to go through

this because Mark was going to go a complete backwards direction from where Harold had taken everything over his 40 year career. And he left and went to Allgeier-Martin and specifically because of Mark's point of views. You consider Harold - he was a part-time City Manager, too, wasn't he? Yes, he was. That's correct.

So you consider the loss of Harold and his knowledge directly attributable to according to him from Mark's actions? Absolutely, yes, sir. You hate to lose assets like that. You do. And I understand there's personality

conflicts always, but it just seemed odd to me that a guy would just quit what he loved, his career that he loved, he loved the City and just walk away from it knowing that not only was it a personality conflict, but it was a general where he wanted to take the City was 40 years backwards and Harold had worked his whole career to get it here. It

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Page 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 (SWORN STATEMENT CONCLUDED) A. Q. A. Q. Q. A. Q. A. Q. just did not set with Harold at all. Now that you've seen these other engineers go through a similar situation I mean you can understand Harold's position better now than even then, I suppose? I suppose. I knew Harold fairly well and we

still communicate some, so I knew him better than I know these gentlemen. where his heart was at, too. Anything else that you want to tell me? I can't think of anything offhand. I certainly appreciate your contribution and I'll include it in my report. As it is we I just knew

try to keep everything confidential so try to keep what we say in here to us. Yes, sir. Thank you for coming in, sir. Not a problem. All right, sir. If you need me just call me. Thank you very much.

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REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

STATE OF MISSOURI ss. COUNTY OF JASPER I, SHARON K. ROGERS, Certified Court Reporter in the State of Missouri, do certify that pursuant to the foregoing Stipulation the witness came before me on the 5th day of December, 2013, was duly sworn by me, and was examined. That examination was then taken by me by

steno-mask recording and afterwards transcribed; said Sworn Statement is subscribed by the witness as hereinbefore set out on the day in that behalf aforesaid and is herewith returned. I further certify that I am not counsel, attorney, or relative of either party, or clerk, or stenographer of either party or of the attorney of either party, or otherwise interested in the event of this suit.

________________________ SHARON K. ROGERS, CCR-650

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