LETS TALK BITCOIN

Episode 100 The Milestone Episode

Participants:
Adam B. Levine (ABL) Host
Dr. Stepanie !"rp# (S!) Co$ost
Andreas !. Antonopo%o"%os (AA) Co$ost
ABL: Toda# is Apri% &'
t
( ')&* and tis is episode &)) o+ Lets Ta%, Bit-oin.
Tis pro/ram is intended +or in+ormation and ed"-ationa% p"rposes on%#.
Cr#pto-"rren-# is a ne0 +ie%d o+ st"d#1 -ons"%t #o"r %o-a% +"t"rist( %a0#er( and
investment advisor 2e+ore ma,in/ an# de-isions( 0atsoever( +or #o"rse%+.
3e%-ome to Lets Ta%, Bit-oin( te t0i-e 0ee,%# so0 a2o"t te ideas( peop%e(
and pro4e-ts 2"i%din/ te di/ita% e-onom# and te +"t"re o+ mone#. !# name
is Adam. B. Levine and toda#s a mi%estone5 episode &)). Cra6# s-ed"%es
0ere ne/otiated( re-ordin/s 0ere set7 and moved7 and set a/ain. Im ver#
app# to sare 0it #o" tis +"%% episode +rom te osts o+ Lets Ta%, Bit-oin5
Stepanie !"rp#( Andreas Antonopo%o"%os( and m#se%+.
En4o# te so0. 8)5*9:
Adam, Andreas, and Stephanie talk about the past ear!
SM: &)) episodes and a #ear( ri/t; 8)5*<:
ABL: 3e%%7 0ere not ="ite a #ear #et. A #ear is a-t"a%%# &)* episodes.
Be-a"se( its >' 0ee,s1 ' episodes per 0ee,1 so( &)* episodes per #ear.
8)5>9:
SM: Tats -onsisten-#. ?o" avent missed a 0ee, at a%%. @rett# /ood. 8&5)':
ABL: A2so%"te%#. To"/( tere 0as one episode tat 0eve 2een %ate 0it so
+ar and it 0as a da# %ate and it 0as 2e-a"se I7 s-rapped te episode tat 0e
0ere /oin/ to r"n and 0e 0o"nd "p r"nnin/ one o+ te AoB episodes instead
and( #o" ,no07 8&5&&:
SM: (La"/ter) 8&5&':
ABL: ...I ad to a-t"a%%# 2"i%d it at te time. Its( #o" ,no0( tis is %i,e te tin/
I ave done te most -onsistent%# o+ rea%%# an#tin/ e%se in m# entire %i+e. Its
a-t"a%%# a %itt%e 2it i%ario"s tat tats appened. 8&5'):
SM: (La"/ter) 8&5'':
ABL: Bit-oin( in tat same amo"nt o+ time( as -ome 4"st an in-redi2%e7
amo"nt. C"st( te amo"nt o+ pro/ress 0e ave made in terms o+ 0ere te
-omm"nit# stands no0( te amo"nt o+ peop%e 0o are a0are o+ 0ats /oin/
on( 0o are a0are o+ 0# tis is va%"a2%e. ?o" ,no0 Im ,ind o+ tempted
sometimes 0en I %oo, and see 4"st o07di++erent tin/s are no0 -ompared
to a #ear a/o 0en 0e 0ere /ettin/ started1 Im ver# tempted to ,inda( 4"st
sa# Da%ri/t. 3e 0on. Aood 4o2 ever#2od#. Lets a%%7 %ets a%% /o ome no0.E
B"t( I tin, tat 0e sti%% ave a 2it more. 3at do #o" /"#s tin,; 8&5>F:
SM: 3e 0on at 0at to"/; 8&5>G:
ABL: 3e%% tats te7 8&5>H:
SM: Aettin/7 8&5>H:
ABL: 7te point( is tat78&5>H:
SM: 7more mainstream adoption; At /ettin/ eard; I mean 0at; 8'5)&:
ABL: I tin, tat( te point is tat 0eve7 te 2a%% as moved +or0ard( ri/t;
Is tat7 8'5)>:
SM: !mm mm; 8'5)G:
ABL: 70enever it -omes to an# o+ tese ne0 te-no%o/ies7 te de+a"%t
stat"s is tat te# /o no0ere1 te de+a"%t stat"s is tat( %a-,in/ peop%e 0o
p"s tem +or0ard( te# /o no0ere and so its interestin/ to note tat in
sometin/ %i,e 2it-oin or 4"st( a/ain an# sort o+ de-entra%i6ed net0or,. Bit-oin
as rea%%# done a /ood 4o2 o+ eBemp%i+#in/ tese traits I tin,.
?o" -an p"s +or0ard an# -on-ept simp%# 2e-a"se it ma,es sense and #o"
-reate in-entives tat a%i/n in a 0a# tat en-o"ra/es peop%e to do it. ?o"
,no0( tis 0as a%0a#s possi2%e. Tats 0at a 4o2 is( ri/t. (C"-,%e).
Some2od# pa#s #o" mone# and ten #o" do te tin/ tat pro/resses
0atever it is tat te# 0anted to a--omp%is.
B"t( 0at Bit-oin does and 0at a/ain I tin, 0ere /oin/ to see movin/
+or0ard are tese te-no%o/ies tat %et #o" do tat 0ito"t avin/ to 2e in te
same p%a-e as someone( 0ito"t avin/ to ,no0 teir rea% name as
some2od# e%se. C"st 2ein/ a2%e to pi-, te pro4e-t tat most ma,es sense to
#o" and #o" -an most -ontri2"te to and /et invo%ved 2e-a"se te re0ard is
/oin/ to 2e tere on te oter end o+ it. Its tese to,ens. I mean( tats te
tin/ a2o"t it is tat Bit-oin mana/ed to do sometin/ rea%%# interestin/1 it
mana/ed to essentia%%# -onvin-e peop%e tat it 0as a rea%%# /ood idea to ta,e
teir -omp"ters and to point tem at 0at is essentia%%# -ompetitive ma,e
0or,( ri/t; I mean %i,e tat 2e-omes minin/. Tat ten pro-esses
transa-tions 2"t te a-t"a% 0or, tats 2ein/ done( isnt a-t"a%%# doin/ an# o+
tat. Its 4"st -reatin/ a n"m2er tats ten -ompared a/ainst ever#2od# e%se(
ri/t; 8F5F':
AA: ?ea( its a de-entra%i6ed a"to-ra-# and tats rea%%# a po0er+"% -on-ept
2e-a"se( #o" ,no0( peop%e -an -ome to/eter in an ad$o- 0a# to
-o%%a2orate on pro4e-ts and a%%o-ate s-ar-e reso"r-es ver# e++i-ient%# tro"/
Bit-oin. B"t rea%%#( at te end o+ te da#( 2it-oin is not a -"rren-#1 its a meme1
its an idea1 its a sared -onsens"s aro"nd o0 0e 0ant te 0or%d to r"n and
o0 0e 0ant to eBpress va%"e to ea- oter. Its a %an/"a/e( and 0ere "sin/
te %an/"a/e o+ -"rren-# to -reate so-ia% -onstr"-ts( to -reate -"%t"ra%
-onstr"-ts( to -reate -omm"nit#. 8*5)<:
AL: DOAE I tin, is a rea%%# interestin/ eBamp%e o+ tis( ri/t; Be-a"se(
2e+ore I#o" ,no0 I tin, tat #o"re ri/t( AndreasII tin, tat tese rea%%#
arent -"rren-ies1 te# rea%%# are -%oser to memes and so its sort o+ +"nn# to
me tat I 0ent +rom tin,in/ DOAE is a meme tat ten 2e-ame a -"rren-#(
2"t I tin, tat at te -ore( #o"re ri/t. Tese tin/s7 te#re a%% memes(
ri/t; Te#re a%% 4"st7 0e de-ide tat tis is te 0a#( tis is te %an/"a/e tat
0e 0ant to spea,.
Its %i,e( i+ to tis point 0eve ad te a2i%it# to %earn one %an/"a/e and it 0as
ard to %earn tat %an/"a/e and on-e #o"ve %earned tat %an/"a/e( 0e%%( #o"
,no0 0at; Tats /ood. Ive /ot one1 it 0or,s +or ever#2od# 0os aro"nd
me1 Im a%% /ood 0it tat 2"t no0 0eve -reated a s#stem. Teres a s#stem
0ere #o" -an essentia%%# ave as man# %an/"a/es as #o" 0ant and te
a2i%it# to pi-, one "p or drop one is trivia% in terms o+ di++i-"%t#( re%ative%#
spea,in/ to 0at its 2een in te past. So 2e-a"se o+ tat( it means tat rater
tan 4"st spea,in/ one %an/"a/e and 2ein/ part o+ one -omm"nit#( #o" -an
a-t"a%%# spea, man# %an/"a/es and rea%%#( 0at 0ere( I tin,( /oin/ to see(
#o" ,no07 te metapor sort o+ +a%%s apart. Tere are -ompo"nd t#pes o+
va%"e tat 0ere -reatin/ ere 0it tese to,ens.
Bit-oin is 2i/1 Bit-oin is tis /i/anti- representation o+ te entire
-r#pto-"rren-# e-os#stem. ?o" ,no0 0en peop%e -ompare oter to,ens in a
spa-e %i,e Lite-oin a/ainst sometin/. Te# dont /enera%%# -ompare it a/ainst
te do%%ar1 te# -ompare it a/ainst Bit-oin 2e-a"se tats te point o+
re+eren-e 0itin te spa-e. ?o" ta,e tis ,ind o+ 2ase %a#er( ri/t( 0i- 0e
ave no0 0it Bit-oin and #o" -reate tin/s on top o+ tat( 2"t ten on top o+
tat. I mean te a2stra-tion -an -ontin"e +or a-t"a%%# a ver# %on/ time. ?o"
-an ave -"rren-ies or to,ens -reated on top o+ to,ens -reated on top o+
to,ens( ea- one representin/ a sma%%er and more spe-i+i- t#pe o+ va%"e or
spe-i+i- -omm"nit# tat va%"es it.
So tis as 2een ,ind o+ te interestin/ rea%i6ation +or me over tat %ast7 I
/"ess %i,e( G monts( is tat 0a%,$in is dead in a%% its +orms and to tis point its
%oo,ed %i,e Bit-oin is te so%"tion 2"t I tin, tat it is even a so%"tion to te
pro2%em tat Bit-oin as not #et 2e-ome 2"t mi/t at some point 2e-ome.
Te a2i%it# to mi/rate va%"e and to rea%%# 2e a2%e to 2e spe-i+i- a2o"t 0ere
#o" 0ant to asso-iate. I mean( its %i,e te Internet a%% over a/ain. 3eve
ta%,ed a2o"t tis 2e+ore 2"t I dont tin, tat I( at %east( ad to"/t a2o"t it
%i,e tat 2e+ore. 8G5'>:
SM: ?ea( I rea%%# %i,e tis -omparison to a meme 2e-a"se a meme is an idea
and its an idea tat propa/ates and spreads and ma#2e %eave -an/es in its
0a,e. I /re0 "p 0en te Internet 0as sort o+ on te rise( (%a"/)( #o" ,no0(
in te <)s( ri/t( and te %ate 9)s; So Ive seen a %ot o+ -an/es( I /"ess( in
tis /eneration tat Im a part o+( 4"st 8in: peop%e m# a/e in te 0a# tat te#
tin, and te 0a# tat te# a-t 2e-a"se o+ avin/ /ro0n "p 0it te Internet.
Jor instan-e( #o" ,no0( 4"st 8in: te attit"de a2o"t( peraps( +riendsips or
re%ationsips. S"dden%#( #o" ave a 0or%d o+ peop%e #o" -an -onne-t 0it tat
dont ave to 2e in te same to0n as #o" or te same p#si-a% %o-ation as
#o" 2"t #o" -an sti%% rea- o"t and ta%, to tem and -onne-t 0it tem. Same
tin/ 0it Bit-oin.
No0 #o" -an do 2"siness 0it more peop%e tan #o" -o"%d 2e+ore 2e-a"se
#o" dont ave to 2e andin/ tem -as( or t#pin/ in a 2"n- o+ -redit -ard
in+o( or 0atever. !a#2e #o"re avin/ tat opport"nit# opened "p to #o" +or
te +irst time 2e-a"se 0at #o"re "sed to 2e+ore 0as( ,ind o+( %o-a% tradin/.
So 4"st te idea tat peop%e are /oin/ to ave as a res"%t o+ 2ein/ a2%e to "se
Bit-oin( te idea o+ savin/( te idea tat Bit-oin overa%% as de+inite%# ad "ps
and do0ns 2"t it as a-ted 2asi-a%%# as a de+%ationar# -"rren-# 0ere i+ #o"
o%d it( in te %on/ term( #o" are /oin/ to 2e 2etter o++. Tat is "/e%#
in+%"entia% in peop%es ideas a2o"t mone# and a2o"t savin/ and sometimes its
-a%%ed oardin/ instead opposed to savin/ 2"t its te 0a# tat peop%e va%"e
spendin/ mone# no0 vers"s spendin/ mone# %ater and Bit-oin -an -an/e
tat 2e-a"se a-ts di++erent%# tan a%% te oter t#pes o+ mone# tat 0ere "sed
to.
So I tin, teres /oin/ to 2e a 0o%e /eneration tat is /oin/ to /ro0 "p 0it
some o+ tese ideas and teres a 0o%e /eneration tats more open to tose
ideas in te +irst p%a-e 2e-a"se te#ve /ro0n "p 0it te Internet. So 0ere
0i%% 0e 2e in a #ear; I dont ,no01 I mean( 4"st over te past #ear I tin, tose
-o"p%e o+ ideas sort o+ 8are: %i,e openin/ "p te potentia% +or tradin/
re%ationsips a-ross internationa% 2orders and rea%%# 0or%d0ide. A%so( te idea
o+ o0 0e vie0 spendin/ mone# no0 vers"s spendin/ mone# %ater( tose are
/oin/ to 2e rea%%# in+%"entia% in peop%e 0o ave 2een +o%%o0in/ Bit-oin and
0o start to +o%%o0 Bit-oin over te neBt #ear. 895*F:
ABL: ?o" ,no0( one o+ m# +avorite ="otes +rom Do"/%as Adams5 Dan#tin/
tats in te 0or%d 0en #o"re 2orn is norma% and ordinar#( and is 4"st a
nat"ra% part o+ te 0a# te 0or%d 0or,s1 an#tin/ tats invented 2et0een
0en #o"re &> and F> is ne0 and eB-itin/( and revo%"tionar# and #o" -an
pro2a2%# /et a -areer in it and an#tin/ tat is invented a+ter #o"re F> is
a/ainst te nat"ra% order o+ tin/s.E So7 8<5)F:
AA " SM: (La"/ter) 8<5)*:
ABL: 7#o" ,no0( I +o"nd tis to 2e not ne-essari%# ="ite so tr"e in Bit-oin as
it is in oter tin/s sometimes 2"t teres de+inite%# sometin/ a2o"t
2e-omin/ so%idi+ied in te 0a# tat #o" tin, a2o"t tin/s and so as ,ind o+ an
eBer-ise ereIIm ver# interestedI0at are some tin/sI te ="estion is to
2ot o+ #o"I0at are some tin/s tat #o" 2e%ieved a2o"t mone#( or Bit-oin(
or 0atever 0en 0e 0ere at te 2e/innin/ o+ tis pro-ess and 0ats
-an/ed +or #o" over( #o" ,no0( over te #ear tat 0eve 2een doin/ tis so
+ar; 3at tin/s ave #o" rea%i6ed #o" 0ere 0ron/ a2o"t or ave -ome to
"nderstand in a di++erent 0a#; 8<5FG:
SM: Te +irst tin/ tat -ame to mind 0as ta,in/ more responsi2i%it# +or
persona%( #o" ,no0( se-"rit# o+ +"nds. ?o" ,no0( /ettin/ to 2ein/ te one
0os responsi2%e so%e%#( and tere is no one e%se to 2%ame7 (%a"/in/) 7
#o" ,no0 i+ I %ose some +"nds or i+ I ma,e a mista,e and te#re /one or
0atever and avin/ transa-tions 2e irreversi2%e in most -ases or +"n-tiona%%#
irreversi2%e "n%ess someone vo%"ntari%# send it 2a-, to #o". C"st 2ein/ more
mind+"% o+ -%i-,in/ send 0i- I tin, a %ot o+ peop%e( #o" ,no0( -an /et
-are%ess 0it tat 2e-a"se 0e do -%i-, send so man# times in a da# and are
0e rea%%# pa#in/ attention to 0at 0ere a-t"a%%# doin/; !a#2e not a%0a#s(
ma#2e 0ere ,ind o+ distra-ted. So( tats 2een a 2i/ one +or me. 8&)5'G:
ABL: ?o" ,no0( its +"nn# tat #o" mention responsi2i%it#. Tis is sometin/
tat I( I noti-ed 4"st #esterda# a-t"a%%#. I 0as %oo,in/ at m# pass0ords( and
%oo,in/ at te variet# o+ t#pes o+ pass0ords I ave( and te %en/ts o+ te
pass0ords I ave and man# o+ tem( te ones tat I "se +or a%% o+ m# Bit-oin
tin/s or -r#pto-"rren-# tin/s are ver#( ver# %on/ and I -ant even rea%%#
remem2er tem( 2"t te pass0ords tat I "se +or m# o%d 2an,in/ st"++ tat I
set &) #ears a/o and I a-t"a%%# never -an/ed( I dont -are a2o"t it 2e-a"se
(S! %a"/s) #o" ,no0 in te past tere( 0en sometin/ /oes 0ron/( it
doesnt matter to me1 its 4"st ,ind o+ te norma%7 8&)5>H:
SM: Ki/t. 8&)5>9:
ABL: 7 part o+ te s#stem. So #o" ,no0( its ,inda ni-e 2ein/ a2%e to ave
2ot o+ tose tin/s 2e-a"se I %i,e not 2ein/ a2%e to -are a2o"t tat 2"t I a%so
re-o/ni6e tat te 2an,in/ s#stem as a%% ,inds o+ oter disadvanta/es to it
tat I /et a%on/ 0it tat -onvenien-e and not avin/ to ne-essari%# -are so
m"-. 8&&5&F:
AA: To me te /reatest di++eren-e 2et0een no0 and a #ear a/o is te stron/
emer/en-e o+ -omm"nit# aro"nd Bit-oin and te "nderstandin/ tat 0ere I
started o++ 0it a -"rren-# ten it 0as a net0or, and a p%at+orm +or +inan-ia%
app%i-ations and te-no%o/i-a% innovation( and no0 to me its more o+ a /%o2a%
-omm"nit#. Its a /%o2a% -omm"nit# o+ -ommon p"rpose( o+ -ommon interest(
its a -omm"nit# tat sees te 0or%d s%i/t%# di++erent%# and is 0i%%in/ to ta,e
ris,s 2e-a"se 0e see Bit-oin( I tin,( as a po0er+"% too% tat -an 2e "sed to
rea%%# +ree peop%e +rom -onstraints and a%%o0 tem to trade as individ"a%s on a
/%o2a% 2asis.
Its a se-ond renaissan-e tats 2een appenin/ sin-e te 2irt o+ te Internet
0it te de-entra%i6ation o+ in+ormation and no0 te de-entra%i6ation o+
-"rren-#. ?o" ,no0 0e started o++ 0it a -omm"nit# tat 0as ver# distri2"ted
and over te past #ear( /rad"a%%#( as te densit# o+ te peop%e in-reased %o-a%
meet "ps started 2e-omin/ via2%e and meetin/ peop%e in person and 2"i%din/
tose -omm"nit# ties and 0en I 0ent to te +irst -on+eren-e in San Cose I
,ne0 ver# +e0 peop%e in te spa-e( 4"st some o+ te ,ind o+ -e%e2rities i+ #o"
tin,. Ten over te %ast #ear( 4"st meetin/ to"sands o+ peop%e in Bit-oin and
deve%opin/ re%ationsips 0it "ndreds o+ peop%e. Its 2e-ome 4"st a stron/
sense o+ -omm"nit#. 8&'5>*:
SM: ?o" ,no0 Andreas1 I ave a s%i/t%# di++erent perspe-tive on tat. I
a-t"a%%# +ee% %i,e I +e%t a stron/er sense o+ -omm"nit# a #ear a/o ten I do no0
2e-a"se 2asi-a%%# I %ived in Ne0 Hampsire 0it a%% tese Li2ertarians 0o
0ere s"per ear%# adopters o+ Bit-oin and tere 0as a prett# %ar/e and trivin/
Bit-oin -omm"nit# a #ear a/o in m# persona% spere and te# 0ere a%%
de+inite%# sarin/ -ertain pi%osopi-a% tin/s. To 2e an ear%# adopter o+ 2it-oin
#o" ,inda ad to 2e o+ tat i%,( #o" ,no0( tere 0erent man# peop%e at tat
time a #ear a/o and 2e+ore 0o 0ere sa#in/ te# 0ere eB-ited a2o"t
re/"%ation and -omp%ian-e. Ever#one 0as %i,e Dno7E (C"-,%e) D7tis is
a2o"t +reedom.E So( I a-t"a%%# +e%t a stron/er -onne-tion to tem and ten
over te past #ear Ive sort o+ sa0 te 2it-oin -omm"nit# /ro0 to te point
0ere no0 its a%% di++erent ,inds o+ peop%e1 it is not 4"st Li2ertarians and to a
-ertain eBtent II dont mean to so"nd %i,e a ipster ere( or an#tin/( or %i,e
Im sa#in/ Do its te /ood o%d da#s( 2a-, tenE I2"t to me persona%%#( Ive
+e%t %i,e I +it in more a #ear a/o. (La"/). 8&*5)>:
AA: I tota%%# "nderstand tat +ee%in/. I mean( one o+ te tin/s a2o"t /oin/
main$stream is tat it di%"tes te ori/ina% prin-ipa%s 2"t( ever# no0 and ten(
I%% meet tese #o"n/ peop%e 0o are 4"st enterin/ te spa-e( 0ove 2een
into to Bit-oin +or a mont and te# start ta%,in/ a2o"t Bit-oin and teir e#es
%i/t "p. Te#re 4"st so eB-ited a2o"t tis ne0 tin/ tat te#ve dis-overed
and re%ivin/ tat moment o+ dis-over# tro"/ teir eBperien-e is 4"st so
empo0erin/( so eB-itin/ and I ,eep meetin/ ne0 peop%e 0o 2rin/ tat
eB-itement 2a-, to me. 8&*5*':
SM: B"t 0at are te# eB-ited a2o"t; 3at are te# ne0 peop%e eB-ited
a2o"t no0 2e-a"se te# -o"%d 2e eB-ited a2o"t( peraps( te same tin/s
#o" and I 0ere eB-ited a2o"t 0en 0e +irst +o"nd o"t a2o"t Bit-oin or te#
-o"%d 2e eB-ited a2o"t sometin/ -omp%ete%# di++erent( %i,e o0 te#re /oin/
to ma,e a %ot o+ mone# or o0 te#re /oin/ to /et a %ot o+ LC +"ndin/ or o0
te#re /oin/ to -omp%# 0it te re/"%ators 8&>5)&:
AA: I tin, its more tis eB-itement a2o"t tis ne0 idea tat on-e #o" /ra2 a
tread o+ it and start p"%%in/ on tat tread it 4"st /ets 2i//er and 2i//er( and
2i//er in #o"r ead and #o" start seein/ a%% o+ te imp%i-ations a-ross ever#
aspe-t o+ so-iet# and it -an/es #o"r 0or%dvie0( and #o"r "nderstandin/
"man re%ationsips( and mone# and its 4"st mind$2%o0in/. I remem2er te
eBperien-e o+ it 2ein/ mind$2%o0in/ +or me 2"t ten seein/ it in peop%e 0o
4"st 4oined( and it doesnt matter 0i- an/%e te#re -omin/ +rom. ?o" ,no0(
te# dont ne-essari%# ave %i2ertarian %eanin/s( or mone# %eanin/s( or
0atever. C"st seein/ #o"n/ peop%e /et eB-ited a2o"t sometin/ +or te +irst
time or a/ain( +ina%%#( +or sometin/ tat is a ne0 eBperien-e tat /ives tem
ope( I tin, is a 2ea"ti+"% eBperien-e.
ABL: ?o" ,no0( teres an important part o+ te ="estion ere and its te
D0# do te# /et eB-ited.E I tin, tat tere are ' ans0ers to te ="estion5
One is tat it doesnt matter 0# te# /et eB-ited (-"-,%e) and it 4"st matters
tat te# are eB-ited and t0o( te# are pro2a2%# eB-ited 2e-a"se it so%ves a
pro2%em +or tem. So Stepanie( I 0o"%d ar/"e tat te pro2%em it so%ves +or
some peop%e as to do 0it %i2ert# and as to do 0it persona% +reedom1 I
0o"%d ar/"e tat +or oter peop%e its a means to a-ievin/ internationa%
-ommer-e in a 0a# tats not possi2%e1 I 0o"%d ar/"e tat a%% o+ tese tin/s
are essentia%%# di++erent reasons and I tin, tat spe-"%ation is a reason tats
o,( too.
@eop%e tin,in/ tat te# are /oin/ to provide a servi-e 2# -omp%#in/ 0it
re/"%ators( as #o" sa#( and ten mar,etin/ tat advi-e or 0atever to oter
peop%e 0o 0ant to do tat same( I tin, tats a servi-e too1 tats a pro2%em
tats o, to so%ve. So te ="estion is Dare 0e so%vin/ pro2%ems.E I tin, tat(
over time( 0e see tat( #ea( a%% o+ tese tin/s( 0eter its 8tat: #o" 4"st
0ant to ma,e some mone#( tats a pro2%em tats o, to so%ve( too. I dont
rea%%# -are 0# peop%e /et invo%ved1 I 4"st -are tat te# /et invo%ved and tat
te# -an +ind teir so%"tion 0itin tis e-os#stem 2e-a"se I tin, tat 0at 0e
a%% tin, tis is a 2etter e-os#stem to 2"i%d tese tin/s in tan te
a%ternatives. 8&H5&):
SM: I a/ree 0it #o" and I dont tin, tat teres an# reason to ma,e mone#
and Im not eB-ited to ma,e mone#( too( ri/t( %i,e ever#2od# is. Its +ine to
spe-"%ate( and +ine to see pro2%ems tat 2it-oin so%ves( and to /et eB-ited
a2o"t tose 2"t I do tin, tat it matters 0# peop%e /et invo%ved in Bit-oin
and 0# te /et eB-ited a2o"t it 2e-a"se tere are some peop%e 0o are ,ind
o+ -reatin/ pro2%ems tat te# 0ant to so%ve( i.e. te# 0ant to -an/e Bit-oin
in some 0a#. Te# tin, DO( tis is a /reat te-no%o/# 2"t it 4"st needs tis
%itt%e t0ea, to 2e 2etter and eres o0 I 0ant to ma,e it 2etter(E (%a"/) #o"
,no0; 8&H5*<:
ABL: Ho0 do te# a--omp%is tat to"/; 8&H5>&:
SM: No2od# as rea%%# done m"- o+ tat 8"p: to tis point. Its 4"st tat #o"
ear peop%e ,ind o+ 2eatin/ te dr"m +or tat and ten #o"re %i,e D0at are
te#7 0at are te# doin/;E 8&95)F:
ABL: B"t( I /"ess tats ,ind o+ m# point. 3en #o" ave sometin/ tat is so
disr"ptive and te potentia% to ma,e so m"- mone# is tere( #o" are a%0a#s
/oin/ to ave peop%e tat s0ir% aro"nd it sa#in/ De# #o" so"%d /ive "s some
mone# 2e-a"se 0ere /oin/ to do tis a0esome tin/ 0it it.E I dont rea%%#
tin, its o"r 4o2 to -a%% o"t ever# sin/%e 2ad investment1 I tin, its o"r 4o2 to
,inda +o-"s on 0i-7 8&95'':
SM: Im not ta%,in/ a2o"t 2ad investments7 8&95'F:
ABL: O,a#. 8&95'*:
SM: 7Im ta%,in/ a2o"t( %i,e( CoinLa%idate( and %i,e( D%ets p"t tin/ is te
proto-o% tat %in,s peop%es7 tat diminises priva-#( and st"++ %i,e tat.
8&95F':
ABL: S"re. O,a#. A/ain( I tin, tat teres notin/ 0ron/ 0it doin/ tese
tin/s1 teres sometin/ 0ron/ i+ #o" do tese tin/s and te mar,et sa#s
DnoE to tem and #o" someo0 mana/e to do tem an#0a#s( 2"t a/ain( Im
%ess -on-erned a2o"t tis 2e-a"se I dont rea%%# see o0 sometin/ %i,e tat
appens in a tr"%# de-entra%i6ed net0or, environment %i,e 0e ave 0it
Bit-oin. ?o" -o"%d ma,e ar/"ments a2o"t poo%s and on%# needin/ to -onvin-e
&' individ"a%s aro"nd te 0or%d to do in order to /et &))M o+ te Bit-oin
miners( 2"t te +a-t remains tat a%% o+ te poo%s to ave te a2i%it# to( #o"
,no0( sed "sers1 te#re not mono%iti- str"-t"res1 te#re "nions 2asi-a%%#
and "nions tat ave no %o-, in. 8&<5&':
AA: Im %oo,in/ at tis +rom a ver# di++erent perspe-tive( /"#s. I mean I tin,
te main iss"e to me is tat Bit-oin is a ne"tra% p%at+orm and peop%e pro4e-t
teir o0n aspirations and opes onto it 2"t te reason te# do tat is 2e-a"se
o+ a +"ndamenta% disappointment in te +a2ri- o+ so-iet#. ?o"ve /ot a
/eneration o+ #o"n/ peop%e 0o ave /ro0n "p d"rin/ a de-ade o+ t0o period
0ere ever# sin/%e instit"tion o+ a"torit#( and tr"st( and sta2i%it#( and
or/ani6ation( and so-ia% /ood aro"nd tem is -o%%apsin/ and imp%odin/
in0ards in -orr"ption( and s-anda%( and -ooption( and -apt"re. Tere is
notin/ o"t tere to tr"st.
?o" see #o"n/ peop%e 0o -an no %on/er tr"st te -"r-( te s-oo%s( te
/overnment( te mi%itar#( te po%i-e( a%% o+ te so-ieta% instit"tions o+ sta2i%it#
and order tat te# ave 2een to%d as a narrative( as te# /r8e:0 "p( are 0at
ma,es so-iet# +air and 4"st( e="ita2%e and sa+e 0at- as a%% o+ tese
instit"tions( teir a"torit# -o%%apses as te# +ai% to s-a%e( as te# +ai% to de%iver
on tese promises( and as te# /otten more( and more -orr"pt and -apt"red
+rom te top. ?o" ,no0( peraps in te States( tis is sometin/ tat o--"rs
no0 more so tan in te past and( in man# oter -o"ntries( tis as 2een te
end"rin/ re+rain( te massive disasso-iation 2et0een promise and te rea%it#.
As #o" /ro0 "p( #o" start a promise and te +air#ta%e and it a%% so"nds so neat
and 0onder+"% and ten #o"re +a-ed 0it te rea%it# and it -a"ses so m"-
an/"is( and pain( and dissonan-e.
So( #o"n/er peop%e pro4e-t onto Bit-oin a sense o+ ope( and a%so onto te
Internet1 I tin, its ver# simi%ar. Te# -an no %on/er tr"st te o%d instit"tions so
te# see 0itin tese ne0( de-entra%i6ed instit"tions( ne0 /%o2a% instit"tions
te possi2i%it# +or a ne0 0a# o+ doin/ tin/s( one tat -an rep%a-e te tin/s
tat ave +ai%ed in teir %i+e( a%% o+ te so"r-es o+ a"torit# tat te# -an no
%on/er tr"st. 8'&5F*:
ABL: ?o" ,no0( #o"re ta%,in/ a2o"t #o"n/ peop%e and I tin, tat tat
toro"/%# des-ri2es Stepanie and I in tis -onteBt1 m# entire ad"%t %i+e as
ta,en in te post '))& 0or%d and tats a 0or%d tats 2een interestin/ in terms
o+ +inan-ia% possi2i%ities. So( #ea. I tin, tat Andreas( #o"re tota%%# ri/t. I
tin, tat its a2o"t te appearan-e not on%# tat te r"%es on%# app%# to -ertain
peop%e 2"t tat( re/ard%ess o+ 0eater or not #o" +o%%o0 te r"%es( te /ame is
so ri//ed tat tere 4"st isnt too m"- #o" -an do o"tside o+ /et %"-,# or
,no0 some2od#. I mean( %i,e tat is7 8''5)':
SM: !mmm7 8''5)F:
ABL: 7I tin,( 2road%# spea,in/( te per-eption and most peop%e 0o I ,no0
0o are in o"r demo/rapi- or a %itt%e 2it #o"n/er7 Teres no possi2i%it# tat
te tin/ tat te#re doin/ is te tin/ tat te# rea%%#( rea%%# 0ant to do1 te
tin/ tat te#re doin/ is te tin/ tat te#re doin/ 2e-a"se te# need to
pa# rent and 2e-a"se te# dont rea%%# see anoter 0a#. Teres a%0a#s tis7
?o" ,no0( it 0as te same tin/ 0it me1 0i%e doin/ m# 4o2( I 0o"%d 0or, on
m# o22ies( m# pro4e-ts( r"nnin/ -omm"nities( and startin/ /ame
deve%opments( and st"++ %i,e tat 2"t I never rea%%# eBpe-ted it to 2e an#tin/
oter tan sin,s +or m# mone# 2e-a"se #o" dont ma,e mone# +or doin/
tin/s tat #o" en4o#. Instead( #o" ma,e mone# doin/ tin/s #o" dont
ne-essari%# en4o# 2"t ma,e #o" mone# and ten #o" ta,e and #o" do tin/s
tat are more +"n 0it it. 8''5*H:
AA: Tats te tin venire o+ opport"nit# and promise tat #o" %ost in ')) or
'))& and I -an te%% #o" tat I /re0 "p in a di++erent so-ia%$e-onomi-
environment 0ere tat tin venire disappeared at a ver# #o"n/ a/e 2e-a"se
it 0as m"-( m"- tinner( and +%imsier( and more +a,e tan it even 0as ere.
So( tat 0ave o+ disen+ran-isements( and 2ein/ -"t o++ +or e-onomi-
opport"nit#( and str"//%in/ to a-ieve an#tin/ in a 0or%d o+ promises tat
e="a%it# eBists and +airness eBists( tat disappointment appened to me at a
m"- ear%ier a/e 2e-a"se te tin venire o+ tat promise 0as easi%#
penetrated and 0as easi%# as +a,e 2# me and most o+ m# -oorts at a m"-
ear%ier a/e. I tin, #o"re seein/ tat 0ave -rest over te Nnited States 0i-
0as( peraps( tat %ast 2astion 0ere te promise o+ midd%e$-%ass opport"nit#
eBisted +or a tinner and tinner s%i-e o+ te pop"%ation +or a 2it %on/er 2"t is
no %on/er s"staina2%e as an i%%"sion. 8'F5><:
SM: No0 its /%o2a% and no0 0e ave a 0o%e 0or%d peop%e( at %east o+
#o"n/er peop%e( 0o arent 2"#in/ into te o++i-ia% stor# an# more( +or %a-, o+ a
2etter 0ord( 0o see tro"/ te -rap %i,e DO7 I 0as to%d I 0as /oin/ to
ave a ni-e %i+e and no0 tats not tr"e an#more. 3e need to /o +or @%an B1
0e need sometin/ ne0.E 8'*5'':
AA: Ki/t. Jor te vast ma4orit# o+ te 0or%d( in man# -ases( peop%e 0erent
even to%d tat tere 0as a 2etter p%an1 te# ,ne0 tat tere 0as no p%an.
S%avin/ a0a# to ma,e te 2asi- re="irements o+ %i+e appen +or #o" is 4"st
s"rviva%( is 4"st te rea%it# +or te vast ma4orit# o+ te 0or%d. I tin,7 8'*5*):
SM: ?ea7 8'*5*&:
AA: 7#o" ave te +irst$0or%d pro2%em o+ 2ein/ disappointed tat te promise
0asnt de%ivered 0ere in man# -ases tere 0asnt even a promise
e%se0ere. It is a 4arrin/ rea%i6ation and tose 0o ave( potentia%%#( te po0er
to re-%aim tat promise or te desire to re-%aim tat promise are no0
2e/innin/ to +i/t 2a-, and sa#in/ DNo. I 0ont a--ept tat rea%it#.E 8'>5)H:
A#$E%T:
Bit-oin EBpo ')&*( presented 2# te Bit-oin A%%ian-e o+ Canada( is 4"st a 0ee,
a0a#. Te -on+eren-e 0i%% +eat"re te ,e# p%a#ers 2eind Etere"m( CALirteB(
Lite-oin( Open Transa-tions( Seans O"tpost( CoinTa%,( !aster-oin(
Dar,3a%%et( Kr#pto,it( B%o-,-ain.in+o( O"i-,BT( Bit-oin !a/a6ine( and man#
oters 0it spe-ia% /"est Andreas Antonopo%o"%os as !aster o+ Ceremonies.
Bit-oin EBpo ')&* Toronto( Canada5 Apri% &&
t
to &F
t
. Jor ti-,ets( visit
Bit-oinEBpo.-a. 8'G5)&:
A#$E%T:
Te BitAi+t Jo"ndation is a non$pro+it( -arita2%e /ivin/ or/ani6ation
%evera/in/ te po0er o+ te Bit-oin -omm"nit# to improve p"2%i- ea%t and
te environment 0or%d0ide. He%p "s demonstrate te si/ni+i-ant impa-t o+
Bit-oin in addressin/ tese -riti-a% iss"es on a /%o2a% s-a%e. S"pport
internationa% /ivin/ in Bit-oin1 p%ease visit o"t 0e2site at
000.BitAi+tJo"ndation.or/. Tats 000.BitAi+tJo"ndation.or/. 8'G5F9:
ABL: ?o" ,no0 te tin/ is 0#( 0enever #o" %oo, at 0or%d events(
0enever #o" %oo, at an#tin/ tats appenin/ in te modern 0or%d tese
da#s tat invo%ves te /%o2a% sta/e( it is ver# interestin/ to i+ tis is te option
tat 0e ave -osen( tat 0e are /oin/ to /o do0n( 0# is tis te pre+era2%e
option re%ative to ever# oter possi2i%it# in te 0or%d; 3# is notin/ e%se
avai%a2%e and tis is te 2est tin/ tat -o"%d ave 2een -osen; 3at is
0ron/ 0it o"r 0or%d in s"- a 0a# tat is -a"sed tis sit"ation 0ere 0e
ave to do tese same 0ron/ tin/s over( and over( and over a/ain 0en its
important; 3en it isnt important( #ea( teres some room to ne/otiate 2"t i+
its important r"%es /et s"spended and 0ats done is done 2e-a"se tere is
no oter a%ternative. 3e see tis over and over a/ain in tese 0or%d -rises. I
a%0a#s -ome 2a-, to( 0# is te 0or%d 0ere %ivin/ in no0 te pre+era2%e one
/iven a%% te oter options tat 0e ave as individ"a%s p"sin/ +or0ard; 3#
is tis te one tat 0e %ive in;
It 4"st seems to me tat over( and over a/ain( tro"/o"t te 0or%d( 0enever
teres an important de-ision tat needs to 2e made tat impa-ts o0 0ere
/oin/ to pro/ress as "man -"%t"re7 te ="estion 2e-omes 0eter or not
te stat"s ="o so"%d remain or 0eter or not 0e so"%d do sometin/
entire%# di++erent. I +ind tat over( and over a/ain 0e pi-, 0atever ,eeps te
stat"s ="o as it is no0( 0atever ,eeps te po0er re%ationsips as te# are
no0 te 0a# tat te# are no0 is. Tat is te option tat 0e are /oin/ to ta,e.
I 4"st 0onder7
Bit-oin is an interestin/ eBamp%e o+ tis 2e-a"se #o" ave no a2i%it# +or a
sma%% /ro"p o+ peop%e to ma,e te 0ron/ de-ision over( and over( and over
a/ain. ?o" ave te a2i%it# +or a sma%% /ro"p o+ peop%e( in tis -ase( te
miners( or deve%opers( or an# o+ tese tr"sted /ro"ps to ma,e a mista,e on-e
2"t on-e te mista,e is made( te dama/e to teir rep"tation is done and so
tere is no in-entive to ma,e te same de-ision( 0en its te 0ron/ de-ision(
over and over a/ain even i+ it is 2etter +or #o" persona%%# 2e-a"se to do so is
to essentia%%# tro0 a0a# ever#tin/ tat #o" ave( tat #o"r rep"tation as
2"i%t "p to. So( tats 0at I a%0a#s -ome 2a-, to5 0# is tis te 2est option
and 0# is tis te one tat te 0or%d -oses to /o 0it over( and over a/ain
and does tat -ontin"e +orever;
AA: (La"/) It does -ontin"e +orever1 te istor# o+ "manit# is te istor# o+
po0er$p%a#s and esta2%isment 2ein/ +o"/t 2# -an/e. ?o" /o 2a-, F)))
#ears a/o and So-ieties( and @%ato( and Aristot%e( are ta%,in/ a2o"t #o"t( and
irrationa%it#( and o0 te# 2rin/ -an/e( and o0 tat -an/e is resisted. Tis
is a stor# tats 2een to%d -o"nt%ess times over te mi%%ennia. Te 2i/
di++eren-e is tat sense o+ iso%ation( istori-a% iso%ation amon/ -omm"nities(
0e no0 eBist as a /%o2a%( transnationa%( "man -"%t"re tat trans-ends
2oarders 0it a -ommon -"%t"ra% "nderstandin/ tat is a2%e to propa/ate over
te Internet and /enerates tese -ommon -"%t"ra% memes 0eater tose are
te anon#mo"s A"# Ja0,es mas, tat #o" see in "ndreds o+
demonstrations #o" see aro"nd te 0or%d( 0eter its Bit-oin( 0eter its a
-onsens"s a2o"t te +"t"re o+ "manit# or at %east re4e-tion o+ some o+ te
str"-t"res o+ te past 2# a /%o2a% #o"t.
3ere rea%%# seein/ te emer/en-e o+ tis nas-en-e( transnationa%( /%o2a%
-"%t"re tat as never eBisted on tis p%anet 2e+ore. O+ -o"rse( it is sti%%
restri-ted to a2o"t ' 2i%%ion peop%e 0o ave a--ess to te Internet and te
in+ormation -ontent on it 2"t its spreadin/ ver#( ver# +ast. Tat -an/es
tin/s1 tat -an/es tin/s rater dramati-a%%#. 8F)5*9:
ABL: 8Te: ="estion is( to"/( 0o +i/ts te -an/e 2e-a"se I tin, 2a-,
tro"/ istor#. Tere is an interestin/ -art tat #o" -an %oo, o+ /%o2a%
reserve -"rren-ies over te %ast > or G "ndred #ears. ?o"%% noti-e( %oo,in/ at
tis -art tat 8in: ea- period o+ time teres a nationa% -"rren-# tat %asts
a2o"t &') #ears. Jran-e as ad it( En/%and ad it( Spain7 tere ave 2een
%ots o+ di++erent dominant 0or%d -"rren-ies in di++erent periods o+ istor#. ?o"%%
noti-e tat its not tat te#ve done a /ood 4o2 tat made it so tat te#
retained dominan-e o+ tat &') #ears. Kater( its 2e-a"se te# ad -ontro% o+
empire. So( empire is a monopo%# o+ +or-e( ri/t; Its avin/ te most
dominant mi%itar# a2i%it# to rea- o"t and to"- someone and so( even to"/
te monetar# +"ndamenta%s mi/t ave s"//ested a si+t a0a# +rom 0atever
te -"rren-# 0as at te time 2ased on +"ndamenta%s 2"t not 2ased on -"rrent
po0er str"-t"res. ?o" -an see tat over time tat tose tin/s do de/rade.
So( I 0onder7 I %oo, at Bit-oin and I %oo, at di/ita% -"rren-ies and I sa#
DO,a#( 0e%% it seems %i,e te pro2%em tat di/ita% -"rren-ies so%ve is tat tere
is no Pempire monopo%#.E 8F'5)&:
AA: ?ea. 8F'5)':
ABL: In a 0or%d o+ -r#pto-"rren-ies( are 0e /oin/ to ave &') #ear%on/
monopo%ies or is it /oin/ to 2e di++erent 2e-a"se tere is no +or-e to 2a-, it
"p; 8F'5)<:
AA: I tin, te 2i/ di++eren-e is tat de-entra%i6ed in+ormation( and -"rren-#(
and -omm"nit# s-a%es 2etter tan te -entra%i6ed ierar-i-a% po0er
str"-t"res o+ te past. Tats tippin/ te s-a%es( to "se a do"2%e entendre. Its
tippin/ te s-a%es to0ards de-entra%i6ation 2e-a"se te -entra%i6ed po0er
str"-t"res o+ te past 2ot in s-a%e o+ "nderstandin/ te in+ormation o+ te
0or%d aro"nd tem and a-tin/ on tat in+ormation and in terms o+ s-a%in/ teir
pro4e-tion o+ po0er( in+ormation( and propa/anda o"t. As a res"%t(
de-entra%i6ed s#stems tat s-a%e 2etter are /rad"a%%# 0innin/ a/ainst te
-entra%i6ed po0er str"-t"res. Tat is te de+inin/ teme o+ te -ent"r# and I
tin, its rea%%# 2e/innin/ to so0 0ere te t0o s#stems( i+ #o" %i,e( or te
t0o 0aves o+ -ivi%i6ation -ome into -%ases and it -reates dissonan-e( it
-reates po0er va-""ms( it -reates +ri-tion( it -reates stri+e as 0e%%. C"st %i,e
te transition +rom a/rarian to ind"stria%i6ed e-onomies in te &9
t
( &<
t

-ent"r#. So no0 te transition to in+ormation e-onomies tat are /%o2a% and
de-entra%i6ed and 8to: in+ormation so-ieties is /oin/ to -reate stri+e a/ainst te
o%d po0er str"-t"res 2"t( in te end( de-entra%i6ed s#stems 0in. Te# de%iver
more va%"e to ea- node in te net0or, tan a -entra%i6ed s#stem -an ever
de%iver. 8FF5*<:
SM: No0 0ere at te point 0ere 0e dont need to ever /o to 2%ood#
revo%"tions ever a/ain. Tis is a pea-e+"% evo%"tion and 0i%e te po0ers tat
2e ma# not %i,e it 0en teir po0er is disr"pted( its 4"st te nat"ra% evo%"tion
o+ 0ere tin/s are /oin/. Tis is te +"t"re 2rea,in/ "p -on-entrations o+
po0er and de-entra%i6in/ ever#tin/. ?o" ,no0( tere "sed to 2e tis
%i2ertarian meme tat said Dprivati6e ever#tin/7E #o"d see it on 2"mper
sti-,ers and st"++. 3e%%( no0 its Dde-entra%i6e ever#tin/.E (La"/) DAn#tin/
tat -an 2e de-entra%i6ed 0i%%E as David Conson sa#s. 8F*5'9:
AA: ?es. Im not so -on+ident tat 0e 0ont see si/ni+i-an-e stri+e and
vio%en-e 2e-a"se o+ te spasms o+ d#in/ empires. 3eter tose are some o+
te %ar/e( /%o2a% s"per$po0ers o+ te 0or%d toda# or te transnationa%
net0or,s o+ po0er tat eBist para%%e% to tem. I tin,7 8F>5>':
SM: B"t tats a%% on te part o+ /overnments to"/. A%% te revo%"tions
tro"/o"t istor#( a %ot o+ 0at peop%e ad to -a%%en/e oppressive
/overnments 0as /"ns( and po%iti-a% "prisin/s( and peop%e ,inda /ettin/
to/eter 2"t no0 0e dont need tat. 3e ave te internet. (La"/) 3e ave
te 2att%eII ate to "se te prase P2att%e or P0arI2"t its te 0ar +or te
earts and minds o+ peop%e and 0en peop%e -an/e teir minds te on%#
person tats sti%% "sin/ vio%en-e is /overnments. 8F>5>':
&e's on &(T:
Tis is Cris Cosep 2rin/ #o" Ne0s on NQT te +irst tr"e se-ond$/eneration
-r#pto-"rren-# +or Apri% &'
t
')&*.
A mem2er o+ te NQT -omm"nit# as -reated a site +or d#nami- -arts
re%ated to NQT transa-tions( 2%o-,s( and a--o"nts at -arts.NQTCr#pto.or/.
Te site is sti%% ="ite ne0 2"t -an a%read# 2e "sed to eBamine -oin distri2"tion(
avera/e 2%o-, /eneration times( and more.
A n"m2er o+ pro4e-ts ave 2een %a"n-ed or anno"n-ed tis 0ee,. intmain
estimates is 0or, a2o"t ')M -omp%ete on a NQT 2ased p%at+orm +or
en-r#pted( de-entra%i6ed DNS and +"%%# de-entra%i6ed 0e2sites. NQTstarter( a
-ro0d +"ndin/ site as presented a p%an and is %oo,in/ +or +"ndin/ and 4%HHH is
teasin/ a se-ret pro4e-t tat -o"%d 2e a 2i/ /ame -an/er +or NQT.
A%% o+ tese are 2ein/ dis-"ssed on te +or"ms at NQTJor"m.or/. Jor more
/enera% in+ormation on NQT( ead to NQTCr#pto.or/ or !#NQT.or/ and sta#
t"ned +or more Ne0s on NQT on te neBt Lets Ta%, Bit-oin 2road-ast. 8FH5&):
ABL: Im not -onvin-ed 0eve seen te end o+ vio%en-e. I tin, te disr"ption
is 0at -a"ses tat sort o+ "peava% and I tin,( nat"ra%%#( i+ tese sorts o+
pro4e-ts s"--eed disr"ption is inevita2%e 2e-a"se even i+ its a 2etter 0a#( it
sti%% is a di++erent 0a# and so( tat re="ires7 Teres no 0a# #o" /et to tat
0ito"t "peava%. I tin, tat its a%so interestin/ to ta%, a2o"t an in+ormation
a/e and an in+ormation e-onom#. Tis is not te +irst time tat sometin/ %i,e
tat as appened1 tere ave 2een a/es o+ en%i/tenment 2e+ore and te#
ave a%so -entered aro"nd in+ormationa% tin/s %i,e 2oo,s.
I tin, tat tere ave 2een o%i/ar-ies and ,eepers o+ ,no0%ed/e ave(
tro"/ re%i/ion or oter means( done a prett# /ood 4o2 o+ -ontro%%in/ %ar/e
pop"%ations simp%# 2e-a"se most peop%e dont "nderstand 0ats rea%%# /oin/
on. I sort o+ see a simi%ar dan/er ere1 as 0e /et +"rter into a -r#pto/rapi-
0or%d tose 0ords sort o+ 2e-ome meanin/%ess( 2e-ome 2"660ords(
indi-ators o+ an entire -%ass rater tan a-t"a%%# eBp%anations o+ 0ats
appenin/. I tin, tat te open so"r-e movement does a %ot to address tat
2"t it as 2een interestin/ 0at-in/ te Bit-oin deve%opers( some o+ te vo-a%
ones( over te %ast mont or so( ta%,in/ a2o"t some o+ te proto-o%s -omin/ to
2e 2"i%t on top. Jor a %on/ time( on tis so0( 0eve ta%,ed a2o"t one o+ teI
m# +avorite( -ertaint#( and I tin, ever#2od# eresI+eat"res a2o"t Bit-oin is
tat it doesnt -are 0o #o" are( it doesnt -are 0at #o" 0ant to do 0it te
2%o-,-ain( it 4"st -ares tat #o" +o%%o0 te r"%es( pa# te +ees re="ired( and
ten #o" /et to do 0atever it is tat #o" 0ant to do.
Ke-ent%#( teres 2een sort o+ a ard%ine stan-e a/ainst7 not rea%%# a ard%ine
stan-e( tats te 0ron/ 0a# to p"t it. Teres 4"st 2een some +ri-tion. It
seems %i,e te 2it-oin deve%opment team doesnt rea%%# 0ant proto-o%s %i,e
!aster-oin or Co"nterpart# 2"i%din/ on top and "sin/ te 2%o-, -ain to store
teir o0n t#pes o+ transa-tions. Im ,inda -"rio"s 0at #o" /"#s tin, a2o"t
tat deve%opment( 2road%# spea,in/. Is tere ever a sit"ation "nder 0i- te
2%o-,-ain so"%d... "nder 0i- sometin/ is not o,a# to do 0it te
2%o-,-ain tat #o" -an -on-ept"a%i6e; 8F<5&H:
AA: I tin, te 2%o-,-ain is a ne"tra% p%at+orm and( as a ne"tra% p%at+orm( it
-arries te -"%t"ra% -onversation and %an/"a/e o+ va%"e eB-an/e o+ te
so-iet# a2ove it. Tat 0i%% eBpress ever# variet# o+ eBpression tats 2ein/
-reated 2# te so-iet# a2ove it5 /ood( 2ad( evi%( "/%#( 0onder+"%( -arita2%e(
/ivin/7 ever# possi2%e eBpression o+ trans+er o+ va%"e is eBpressed on top o+
tis ne"tra% p%at+orm and its important to separate te too% +rom te "se tat
tose 0o "se it p"t it to. ?o" ,no0( in a 2roader sense( it provides a p%at+orm
tat isnt rea%%# desi/ned to -reate -an/e or oppose eBistin/ str"-t"res1 it
simp%# doesnt -are a2o"t tem. Its desi/ned to -omp%ete%# i/nore a%% o+ te
eBistin/ str"-t"res and provide a ne0 str"-t"re. It 0as never desi/ned to
oppose7 it 0as simp%# desi/ned to 2e and in 2ein/ it 4"st i/nores te eBistin/
str"-t"res and it a%%o0s peop%e to eBpress a%% possi2%e eBpressions o+ trans+er
o+ va%"e7 4"st ta,e it. 8*)5FG:
ABL: So( I 0o"%d tend to a/ree 0it #o" and I tin, its a %itt%e 0eird and it
,inda ma,es me "n-om+orta2%e seein/ tis sort o+ -on+%i-t 2e-a"se it does
+ee% %i,e tere is a 2it o+ an e/o trip /oin/ on ere. A/ain( Im not /oin/ to -a%%
o"t an# spe-i+i- deve%opers1 its not a%% o+ tem1 I am not paintin/ a%%
deve%opers 0it a 2road 2r"s as some 0o"%d sa# 2"t te ones tat ave
2een vo-a% a2o"t it seemed to ave 2een vo-a% a2o"t it 2e-a"se te# dont
%i,e te 0a# tat its 2ein/ done. So I -an( a/ain( appre-iate tat i+ tere are
2etter 0a#s 2"t te vi2e tat I /et o++ te 0o%e -onversation is more on te
-om2ative side.
Im 4"st not rea%%# "nderstandin/ 0at te rationa% is +or tis t#pe o+ response
and so its ,ind o+ made me tin, 0ere i+ 0e ad ta%,ed ' monts a/o and
#o" as,ed me 0at I tin, o+ a%t-oins tat do te same tin/ as Bit-oin 2"t
ave a s%i/t%# di++erent name or s%i/t%# di++erent 2%o-, time( I 0o"%d ave said
DI dont tin, tat tere is an# +"t"re( 0atsoever. I dont rea%%# o0n an# o+
tem and I tin, te#re spe-"%ative p%a#s tat are 2ased on peop%e not rea%%#
"nderstandin/ 0ats /oin/ on ereE 2"t a+ter 0at-in/ tis eB-an/e
2et0een te Co"nterpart# deve%opers and tese se%e-t Bit-oin deve%opers
0as rea%%# interestin/ 2e-a"se i+ te -oin tat #o"re tr#in/ to 2"i%d sometin/
on or te -oin tat #o"re tr#in/ to partner 0it doesnt 0ant #o" on teir -oin
and te#re /oin/ to a-tive%# +i/t #o"Itere 0as ta%, a2o"t tr#in/ to +i%ter o"t
transa-tions and 2asi-a%%# startin/ a %itt%e 2it o+ an arms ra-e tr#in/ to ma,e it
so tis proto-o% -o"%dnt 0or, on te Bit-oin 2%o-,-ain 2e-a"se te# didnt
%i,e o0 it 0as /oin/ to 2e done on te Bit-oin 2%o-,-ainItat ,ind o+
ma,es me 0onder D0at a2o"t te oter a%ternatives tat are o"t tere;E
S"dden%#( its not a2o"t te -ode1 its a2o"t 0eter or not #o"re /oin/ to
+i/t some2od#. 3or,in/ 0it someone 0o is /oin/ to +i/t #o" is
dramati-a%%# di++erent +rom 0or,in/ 0it someone 0o eiter isnt /oin/ to
impede #o" or mi/t potentia%%#( a-t"a%%#( e%p #o" mi/t 0or, to e%p #o"r
pro4e-t s"--eed in a 0a# tat( -ertain%#( te Bit-oin deve%opers arent /oin/ to
do.
So( its ,ind o+ made me 0onder ma#2e( a/ain ar,enin/ 2a-, to te /%o2a%
reserve -"rren-# -omment tat I made ear%ier( D0at i+ tese tin/s 4"st dont
s-a%e tat verti-a%%#; 3at i+ 0e /et to te p%a-e 0it ea- one o+ tese -oins
0ere teres eno"/ mone# in it tat te sta,eo%ders 0o /ot in ear%# +ee%
%i,e PIm /ood1 0ere done 0it tis. Lets not do an#tin/ e%se to it1 8Im: ver#
app# 0it o0 tin/s are no0 and 0e%% 4"st sta# ere deve%opin/ as 0e see
+it 2e-a"se 0ere te sta,e o%ders;E Teres notin/ a-t"a%%# stoppin/
an#one +rom startin/ teir o0n -oin sin-e a%% tese are 2asi-a%%# -"%t"ra%(
-omm"nit# memes. Doesnt tat mean tat Bit-oin mi/t 4"st 2e Bit-oin no0
2"t in te +"t"re it mi/t 4"st 2e te Do%d Bit-oinE tat 0e ta%, a2o"t and teres
tis ne0 to,en tat isnt ma,in/ tese same sort o+ -onservative de-isions
and is a2%# to pro/ress +aster 2e-a"se it doesnt ave a%% tat va%"e 2eind it.
Im tr#in/ to7 8*F5&>:
SM: 3e%% tats one reason 0#7 8*F5&>:
ABL: ?ea; 8*F5&G:
SM: 7tere needs to 2e a%t-oins is so tat peop%e -an eBperiment 0it not
on%# di++erent 2%o-,-ain times( and minin/ a%/oritms( and a%% tat st"++ 2"t
di++erent sort o+ standards +or 0en te# are /oin/ to ma,e ma4or -an/es to
te proto-o% and tin/s %i,e tat( and di++erent e-onomi- prin-ip%es. I 4"st tin,
a%t-oins are important +or te simp%e reason tat te# are 4"st tr#in/ o"t more
0a#s to do tin/s. Its %i,e 8te: evo%"tion o+ spe-ies1 its %i,e an inse-t isnt
ne-essari%# 2etter tan a 2ird a%to"/ te# 2ot +%#( 2"t te#re 2ot doin/
di++erent tin/s and "sin/ di++erent strate/ies to %ive and to s"rvive in teir
environment. 8*F5>9:
ABL: Ki/t. 8*F5><:
AA: ?ea. 3at matters( rea%%#( is tat 0ere si+tin/ te -onversation a2o"t
te a"torit# o+ mone# and 0ere 2"i%din/ an in+rastr"-t"re tat -an s"pport
tese ne0 de-entra%i6ed s#stems o+ mone#. On-e tose ' tin/s ave
appened( ten rea%%# te di++erent to,ens are inter-an/ea2%e and te
p%at+orms ave to -ompete on a /%o2a% 2asis and i+ te# dont +"%+i%% te needs
o+ teir "sers( teir "sers 0i%% ave a ver# eas# eBit and -an move to tose
tat do. Tat -reates press"re to respond to te needs o+ tose 0o "se te
-"rren-#. Essentia%%#( ea- one o+ tese s#stems( 2e-a"se o+ te
de-entra%i6ed -onsens"s( as to s"pport te -onsent o+ tose /overned 2#
te -"rren-# a%/oritm and i+ it doesnt7 it 0i%% +ai%. It doesnt ave an# po0er
to ,eep peop%e in 2# +or-e so it as to ,eep peop%e in 2# pers"asion. Tats a
rea%%# /ood( 2a%an-ed s#stem. Te "nder%#in/7 8**5>9:
SM: (La"/) Tats 0ere I 0ant to 2e7 8**5><:
AA: Ki/t. Te "nder%#in/7 8*>5)):
SM: 72ein/ pers"aded( not +or-ed. 8*>5)':
AA: B"t te most important tin/ to rea%i6e is tat 0at 0e are doin/ no0 is
not pioneerin/ a spe-i+i- -"rren-#1 0ere pioneerin/ a ne0 0a# o+ intera-tin/
0it ea- oter and tat trans-ends ever# -"rren-# in te spa-e. It provides a
+rame0or, in 0i- -"rren-ies -an -ome and /o 2"t te "nder%#in/ idea(
0i- is disr"ptive in itse%+( is tis idea o+ de-entra%i6ed -ontro% and tr"st and
te -"rren-ies are 4"st imp%ementations o+ tat.
To "se anoter +avorite ="ote o+ mine5 Dnotin/ is more po0er+"% tan an idea
0ose time as -ome.E Te idea o+ de-entra%i6ed is an idea 0ose time as
-ome. It as 2een invented and it 0i%% 2e eBpressed in a m#riad o+ +orms ver#
easi%#1 tere is no %o-, in1 tere is no -onstrain and tose 0o ave 2"i%t teir
0ea%t on tis s#stem o%d on to tat 0ea%t on%# +or as %on/ as te# -ontin"e
to s"pport te -omm"nit#( te transa-tions( te intera-tions 2et0een "sers 2#
s"pportin/ tat -onsens"s me-anism. As soon as te# tr# to rest -ontro%
a0a#( te# 0i%% /et disr"pted 2# te ver# tin/ tat 2"i%t tem "p. 8*G5&>:
SM: !a#2e( te idea tats time as -ome is a-t"a%%# te idea o+ vo%"ntar# and
-onsens"a% "man intera-tions tat are not 2ased on top$do0n ierar-# and
are -omp%ete%# vo%"ntar#( initiated 2# te peop%e invo%ved. !a#2e7 8*G5F&:
AA: Te possi2i%it# o+ doin/ tat at s-a%e as no0 2een proven to 2e rea% and
on-e #o" ,no0 it -an 2e done( 0# 0o"%d #o" do it an# oter 0a#; 8*G5F<:
SM: 3e%% ri/t( "n%ess #o" are some2od# 0o 2ene+its +rom avin/ tat top$
do0n -ontro%. 8*G5*>:
AA: So #o" on%# /et to 2e te on%# "ser on #o"r %one%# %itt%e s#stem (%a"/ter
+rom AA and S!) 2e-a"se ever#2od# e%se as ever# in-entive to do it te
oter 0a#; (La"/) 8*G5>>:
SM: Ki/t.; Its a s#stem 0ere #o" -ant +or-e oter peop%e to parti-ipate
0i- is 0ere 0ere /oin/. In te o%d s#stems( #o" -o"%d a%0a#s +or-e
peop%e( or some2od# -o"%d a%0a#s +or-e peop%e to parti-ipate 2"t tats
-an/in/. 3at Im sa#in/ is tat tats te rea% idea1 vo%"nteerism is te rea%
idea 0ose time as -ome and ma#2e Bit-oin is 4"st te te-no%o/i-a%
mani+estation o+ tat tats ena2%in/ it to rea%%# appen. 8*H5&G:
ABL: ?ea. 8*H5&H:

AA: At s-a%e. ?ea( tats te ,e#. It 0as a%0a#s possi2%e to do vo%"nteerism
at a %o-a%( %imited s-a%e 2"t te pro2%em 0as tat #o" -o"%dnt s-a%e te tr"st
me-anism. Te 2%o-,-ain invention a%%o0s "s( no0( to s-a%e it and not 4"st
s-a%e it 0itin te -o"ntr# 2"t to s-a%e it on a /%o2a% 2asis and a--e%erate its
adoption. So #es. Te idea7 I tin, #o"re ver# ri/t Stepanie. Tat is te
idea and Bit-oin is 4"st a too%1 its te te-no%o/# tat ena2%es it to -ome to +"%%
+r"ition. 8*H5*H:
ABL: 3e%% i+ #o" tin, a2o"t it( its rea%%# not Bit-oin1 its -ompetition1 its 4"st
tat( 8"p: to tis point( -ompetition as 2een 0i%d%# in+erior. Sometin/ %i,e a
si%ver -oin as a %ot o+ intrinsi- monetar# va%"e "nder te 0a#s tat 0e de+ine
tat -"rrent so-iet# 2"t i+ #o" 0ant to "se it +or te tin/s tat #o" 0o"%d "se
Bit-oin +or it is a-t"a%%# ="ite di++i-"%t +or divisi2i%it# and +or a variet# o+ oter
reasons. So a/ain( I ,inda tin, tats te interestin/ part is tat Bit-oin
started te -onversation1 Bit-oin said DO,a#( so #o"ve /ot #o"r nationa%
-"rren-#. ?o" -an "se tat or #o" -an "se 2it-oins and no0 #o" ave a
-oi-e 2et0een a nationa% -"rren-# or te Internet -"rren-#.E
3ats appenin/ no0 is tat te Internet -"rren-#( (%a"/) a-t"a%%# #o" ave
a%% ,inds o+ -oi-es to tat( too. C"st as tere isnt one 0e2site( tere are %ots
o+ 0e2sites1 its te same tin/ ere. La%"e( as 0eve said( is a %an/"a/e and
so it spreads o"t +rom tere. I tin, its not rea%%# so m"- a2o"t Bit-oin as it is
a2o"t -ompetition tat -ant 2e stopped +or ar2itrar# reasons. Teres no s"-
tin/ as a monopo%# o+ va%"e an#more and te 0a# tat as 2een tr"e +or( I
0o"%d ar/"e +or te %ast to"sand #ears o+ "man -"%t"re. 8*95>):
SM: ?ea( and tats rea%%# important 2e-a"se as soon as tere stops 2ein/
tat -ompetition and te -ompetitive +or-es( ten tere are in-entives +or
-orr"ption and monopo%i6ation. ?o" 0ere ta%,in/ a2o"t 8o0: peop%e a%0a#s a
-oi-e no0 2e-a"se tere are so man# a%t-oins. Is tat sort o+ 0at #o" 0ere
/ettin/ at; 8*<5)G:
ABL: ?ea. Even i+ 0e sa# DBit-oin as 0on(E it doesnt rea%%# matter 2e-a"se
te# -ant a-t"a%%# do an#tin/ 0ron/ 0it tat vi-tor# 2e-a"se to do an#tin/
0ron/ 0it tat vi-tor# 0o"%d 2e to %ose and sa-ri+i-e tat vi-tor# to someone
0o is not doin/ sometin/ 0ron/. I /"ess tats 0at Im sa#in/ ere.
8*<5'F:
SM: Hmmm7 8*<5'>:
ABL: Te mar,et ,ind o+ ,eeps tin/s in -e-, 2e-a"se( %a-,in/ tat( 0#
0o"%d #o" "se sometin/ tats /ivin/ #o" a 2ad dea% re%ative to oter tin/s.
Teres no %o-, in1 teres no a2i%it# +or someone to sa# Do( 0e%% Im not /oin/
to a--ept tis to te eB-%"sion o+ tat.E Someone -an -oose to sa# tat 2"t(
a/ain( its a2o"t tem %oo,in/ at teir o0n 2est interest.
?o" ,no07 %ets ta%, a2o"t a%t-oins +or a se-ond1 tis is ,ind o+ an interestin/
side. So( on te %ast episode o+ Lets Ta%, Bit-oin( <<( I spo,e 0it A"stin Hi%%
and Adam Ba-, 0o are t0o ver# serio"s peop%e in te 0or%d o+ -r#pto/rap#.
Adam Ba-, is te +ater o+ Has-as 0i- is te "nder%#in/ proo+ o+ 0or,
tat ten /oes into Bit-oin and A"stin Hi%%7 I 2e%ieve is -ompan# is -a%%ed
Rero$Kno0%ed/e In-.( +o"nded in te %ate <)s( 0or,in/ on -r#pto/rapi-
so%"tions and 4"st( in /enera%( eavies in te spa-e.
So Andreas( #o" ta%,ed 0it Adam Ba-, in Le/as a2o"t te idea o+ avin/ a
side$-ain or m"%tip%e side$-ains +or Bit-oin 0ere its 2asi-a%%# an a%t1 its
2asi-a%%# a mer/e$minedI#o" mine it "sin/ te eBa-t same t#pe o+ so+t0are
a%/oritm and at te same time as #o"re minin/ Bit-oinI 2"t it a%%o0s #o" to
do a %ot o+ tese eBperimenta% +eat"res in s"- a 0a# tat #o"re not vio%atin/
0ats -a%%ed Ddi/ita% s-ar-it#.E Can #o" 2rie+%# ta%, a2o"t 0at di/ita% s-ar-it#
is and 0# tis is sometin/ tat te#re -on-erned a2o"t; 8>)5*':
AA: 3e%% te idea is tat #o" ave a di/ita% to,en tat -an 2e -opied easi%# 2"t
-annot 2e +or/ed and -annot 2e /enerated easi%# and tat 0as te /reat
invention o+ te proo+$o+$0or, a%/oritm is i+ #o" -annot /enerate tese tin/s
easi%#( te# 2e-ome s-ar-e. S-ar-it# ten -reates va%"e essentia%%# 2#
asso-iation 0it eiter anoter s-ar-e reso"r-e. In tis -ase( e%e-tri-it# 8and:
-omp"tin/ po0er 2"t a%so( I tin, 0itin tese -oins its a%so 2rand +o-"s( and
attention( and -omm"nit# aro"nd tem. Heres te tin/5 0e mana/ed to
-onver/e a%% o+ tese +inan-ia% +"n-tions on a sin/%e 2%o-,-ain 2"t no0 0e
ave si%os 2et0een te vario"s 2%o-,-ains.
I tin, 0at is interestin/ a2o"t te side$-ain idea is it -an even 2rea, do0n
te 2arriers 2et0een 2%o-,-ains and i+ #o" a%%o0 +or more +%"id movement
2et0een -oins. ?o" -an sti%% preserve di/ita% s-ar-it# 2"t #o" a%%o0 +or a m"-
+reer mar,et 2et0een te a%t-oins 0i- a%%o0s +or more rapid evo%"tion( and
more +%"id evo%"tion( and %ess %o-,$in. 8>&5>F:
SM: Can 0e 4"st /et rea%%# -%ear +or a se-ond on 0at eBa-t%# is a side$-ain;
8>&5>H:
ABL: ?ea7 so a side -ain( in a n"tse%%( +or tose o+ #o" 0o avent
%istened to episode << #et( is a -op# o+ te Bit-oin 2%o-,-ain tat as s%i/t
modi+i-ations to it so its a-t"a%%# rea%%# simi%ar to an a%t-oin 2"t instead o+ te
side$-ain avin/ its o0n to,ens( so Bit-oin ' or sometin/ %i,e tat( it
a-t"a%%# "ses te same 2it-oins as are on te main$-ain. So #o" ave
2it-oins on te main$-ain and #o" sa# Doa,#( 0e%% Id %i,e to ma,e a 2"n- o+
mi-ro$transa-tions so I%% send m# 2it-oins to te mi-ro$transa-tion side$-ain
tat as 2%o-,s tat are so 2i/ tat m# transa-tion 0i%% +or s"re /et in( not on%#
in te +irst 2%o-,( 2"t it%% a-t"a%%# 2e in a +aster 2%o-,( a ' and a a%+ min"te
2%o-, or sometin/ %i,e tat( and I 0ont ave to pa# a +ee 2e-a"se te 2%o-,s
are ver#( ver# %ar/e so ever#tin/ /ets in-%"ded in tem( even ones tat ave
no +ees asso-iated 0it tem.
So tis is a /ood tin/ +rom te perspe-tive o+ peop%e 2e-a"se( a/ain( it
doesnt 2rea, tis di/ita% s-ar-it# -on-ept. Teres on%# '& mi%%ion 2it-oins ever
/oin/ to 2e -reated and so te# -an essentia%%#7 #o" -an ave #o"r 2it-oin
on te main$-ain( or #o" -an ave it on tis side -ain( or on tat side$-ain.
Its 2asi-a%%# tro"/ a Dt0o$0a# pe/(E is 0at te#re -a%%in/ it( 0ere te
pri-e is +iBed on 2ot sides. Te eB-an/e rate 2et0een ea- -ain is set and
-anSt 2e -an/ed. So a 2it-oin on one -ain is eBa-t%# te same va%"e as
2it-oin on anoter -ain 2"t it mi/t ave di++erent -apa2i%ities. 8>F5&9:
AA: Tats te main +eat"re( In order to "nderstand te side$-ain7 te ,e#
+eat"re ere is tat 0i%e it is %i,e a 2eta test a%t-oin or it provides a di++erent
set o+ -apa2i%ities +rom te main 2%o-,$-ain( te ,e# ere is tat #o" -an
seam%ess%# trans+er to,ens +rom one -ain to anoter at a pe//ed eB-an/e
rate 0it a de-entra%i6ed eB-an/e me-anism. Tin, o+ it as 2ein/ a2%e to
trade 2et0een a%t-oins( in tis -ase 2ot o+ tem are 2it-oin 2"t te#re 2it-oin
tat 2eave di++erent%# or ave di++erent +eat"res 2"t te# ave te same( +iBed
eB-an/e rate to monetar# va%"e. So( i+ #o"re tr#in/ o"t a ne0 +eat"re on te
side$-ain( #o" -an move some 2it-oin +rom te main 2%o-,-ain into te
side$-ain and tr# o"t some +eat"res and ten move some o+ tem 2a-,.
Tin, o+ it %i,e a test$net tat as a-t"a% va%"e and te a2i%it# to eB-an/e
2et0een te t0o. ?o" -an #o" tat +or deve%opment( testin/ +eat"res( or #o"
-an "se it to ave -omp%ete%# para%%e% 2%o-,-ains o+ m"%tip%e -oins 2"t 0i-
are a%% eB-an/ea2%e in a de-entra%i6ed +asion. 8>*5'&:
SM: 7and te 2ene+it to not 4"st avin/ a -omp%ete a%t-oin is tat side$-ain
is a%so se-"red 2# te net0or, po0er o+ te Bit-oin net0or, at te same time
tro"/ mer/e$minin/; 8>*5F':
ABL: Tis is a %itt%e 2it -ontroversia% 2"t( #es. ?es mer/e$minin/ does e%p it
2"t tere are -ir-"mstan-es in 0i- mer/e$minin/ is not a-t"a%%# tat e%p+"%.
So a/ain( Ive 2een avin/ a -onversation 0it @eter Todd( anoter Bit-oin
-ore deve%oper 0os ,ind o+ on te oter side o+ tis ar/"ment and +ee%s %i,e
tere are trade$o++s tat are not a--epta2%e 2ot in terms o+ -omp%eBit# o+
doin/ sometin/ %i,e tis and in terms o+( +ran,%# tis is a-t"a%%# /oin/ to
re="ire an "pdate to te Bit-oin proto-o% in order to do it( too. So( its not a
sort term so%"tion. A/ain( it 0as +rom te -onversation on episode <<( I ave
to sa# tis so"nds %i,e tis isnt tat +ar o"t. It so"nds %i,e te#re p"ttin/
reso"r-es into it and rea%%# tin, tat tis is te dire-tion to move in.
A/ain( its sort o+ interestin/ to %oo, at tese di++erent approa-es 0e see
peop%e ta,in/ to0ards innovation 2e-a"se sometin/ %i,e Co"nterpart# or
!aster-oin essentia%%# ta,es Bit-oin as te sin/"%ar 2%o-,-ain and it ten
adds a %a#er on top o+ tat. So over time( #o" -an ima/ine %a#ers 2ein/ 2"i%t
on top o+ tat and it 2e-omes tis ,ind o+ -a,e tats 2"i%t over time. Its made
"p o+ a 2"n- a di++erent tin/s ea- doin/ sometin/ di++erent 2"t it ,eeps
/ettin/ ta%%er is te point. 3ereas tis side$-ain mode% is a %ot more %i,e a
tree in te +orest and te tree /ro0s "p and its te on%# tree at te 2e/innin/
2"t it seeds itse%+( essentia%%#( and ten #o" ave a +orest tat /ro0s over time
as te nat"ra% tenden-# to s-a%e isnt to /ro0 trees tat are ever ta%%er 2"t(
rater( 4"st to /ro0 more trees over a %ar/er /eo/rapi- area. 8>>5>H:
SM: So( sin-e tere are on%# a %imited n"m2er o+ 2it-oins tat -an move
2et0een a%% tese di++erent side$-ains( is it possi2%e to %i,e7 do 0e need a%%
tese di++erent side -ains; (La"/) I mean( I /"ess Im 4"st 0onderin/ o0
man# side$-ains are needed; I /"ess it 0o"%d 2e "n%imited 2e-a"se ea-
one sort o+ serves a di++erent p"rpose 2"t is ea- one /oin/ to 2e sparse%#
pop"%ated dependin/ on o0 man# peop%e 0ant to "se it and is tat a
pro2%em 2e-a"se some2od#( pres"ma2%#( as to store te side$-ains or a %ot
o+ peop%e ave to store te side$-ains 4"st %i,e te# store te 2%o-,-ain.
8>G5F&:
ABL: ?ea( Im a %itt%e 2it "n-%ear on te eBa-t te-ni-a%s o+ tat 2"t an
interestin/ part is tat an a%t$-ain( rater a side$-ain tat doesnt ave an#
a-tivit# on it 0ont ave an# -oins on it. 8>G5**:
SM: Ki/t78>G5*>:
ABL: So( tats a//ressive%# di++erent tan an a%t-oin. 3ere an a%t-oin
%a"n-es( and re/ard%ess o+ o0 man# peop%e "se it( its /oin/ to ave a%% o+
te -oins tat ever intended to 2e on it 2e on it. In tis -ase its more %i,e
Bit-oin is /oin/ to ave a%% te -oins on it tat ever 2e -reated 2"t tere are a%%
tese di++erent +%avors o+ Bit-oin tat #o" -an -oose to "se 2ased on
0atever #o"r needs are. So a/ain( I tin, te ="estion o+ as,in/ o0 man#
side$-ains tere%% 2e is a /ood one 2"t I dont tin, tat tere is a /ood
ans0er #et. Its %i,e as,in/ o0 man# a%t-oins 0i%% tere 2e. 8>H5&):
SM: Ki/t7 8>H5&&:
ABL: @ro2a2%# a %ot and more over time 2e-a"se 0e%% +i/"re o"t more
reasons 0# 0e need tem. 8>H5&>:
SM: 7and 0at a2o"t -o%ored -oins; I see some para%%e%s tere. 8>H5'):
ABL: ?ea. A/ain( -o%ored -oins( to te -onversation I ad 0it A"stin and
Adam( 2asi-a%%# do te same tin/. Its not as 2ad as Co"nterpart# or
!aster-oin 2e-a"se te# dont ave teir o0n to,en. A/ain( its te idea tat a
to,en -a"ses 2ad in-entives( ri/t; A to,en -a"ses peop%e to 0ant teir
pro4e-t to s"--eed more tan Bit-oin 2e-a"se Bit-oinIte# mi/t a%so 2e
invested in tatI2"t te /ro0t potentia% is a %ot %ess tan +or one o+ tese
ne0 -oins so te spe-"%ative "r/e is rea%%# ver# rea% in te a%t-oins in a 0a#
tat its not ne-essari%# +or Bit-oin. Bit-oin -ertain%# as spe-"%ative 6ea% a%%
over it 2"t -ompared to te a%t-oins I 0o"%d ar/"e tat its a +"ndamenta%%#
di++erent tin/. 8>95)9:
SM: !mm mm7 I a/ree 8>95&):
ABL: So I tin, tats 0at te intent ere is. Te intent ere is to ma,e a%% o+
tis a-tivit# tats /oin/ on in te a%t-oin spa-e and sa# Do,( 0e%% #o" -o"%d do
tat or #o" -o"%d 4"st 2e inter-an/ea2%e 0it Bit-oin. Ever#2od# is /oin/ to
2e "sed to tis and #o" -an 2"i%d #o"r pro4e-t on top o+ tat.E So a/ain( I%% 2e
interested to see 0at Co"nterpart# ends "p doin/ 2e-a"se( -ertain%# +or
LetsTa%,Bit-oin-oin( LTB-oin( 0ere p%annin/ on %a"n-in/ on Co"nterpart#
2"t 0ere not rea%%# atta-ed to an#0ere. 3ere atta-ed to 0atever is te
2est s#stem +or o"r "se over te medi"m$%on/ term. So( tis mi/t 0ind "p
2ein/ a 2etter 0a# to do it. Bot o+ tem a--omp%is 0at I 0ant to
a--omp%is1 te# 2ot are 2"i%t on top o+ 2it-oin 2"t 0atever 0inds "p
2ein/7 I mi/t end "p 2ein/ m"- -eaper to do transa-tions on a side$
-ain. Tere are a%% o+ tese potentia% advanta/es7 8>95>F:
SM: !mm mm( #ea7 8>95>*:
ABL: 7tat as 0e %earn te %imitations o+ 4"st pi%in/ ever#tin/ on top o+ one
-ain( 0ere /oin/ to 2e %i,e5 DO man7 Its /reat tat tats over tere.E So
a/ain( I tin, tat tis Ddeve%opment in para%%e%E tin/ is /reat and I tin, tat
tis D2ein/ a2%e to see 0at ever#2od# is doin/ 2"t not 2ein/ a2%e to stop
an#2od# e%se7E %i,e te 0orst #o" -an do is 4"st /et into an ar/"ment 0it
tem and sa# Dno. ?o"re doin/ sometin/ 0ron/. Stop tat. ?o"re 2ein/
evi%.E I mean( (%a"/) I tin, tat tis is te 2est 0a# tat sometin/ %i,e tis
-o"%d deve%op. Instead o+ one person 2ein/ responsi2%e or severa% peop%e
2ein/ responsi2%e( 0ere a%% ,ind o+ 2ein/ responsi2%e and an#2od# 0o
0ants to step "p as te opport"nit# to do so. 8><5'9:
SM: I ,no0 0e ,ind o+ /ot o++ into a tan/ent and tan,s +or ta%,in/ a2o"t m#
="estions a2o"t side$-ains 2"t 0at 0as te initia% ="estion tat 0e 0ere
+o-"sin/ onIre%ated to side$-ains and a%t-oins; 8&5))5&):
ABL: Its 4"st an interestin/ deve%opment tats /oin/ on ri/t no0. I tin, tat
te ="estion is5 Dis tere room +or 2ot a%t-oins and side$-ains; Do te#
serve di++erent p"rposes;E I+ te on%# di++eren-e ere is 8tat: one is inerent%#
tied to Bit-oin 2"t %a-,s te ne0( spe-"%ative to,en ten ma#2e tats 2etter.
!a#2e tats te 0a# tat 0e ta,e some o+ te p"re spe-"%ative pro+it motive
o"t o+ it and ma,e it a2o"t tin/s tat a-t"a%%# add va%"e to te overa%%
net0or,. !a#2e tatSs te 0a# to /o 0it it.
It too, me a %on/ time to even re-o/ni6e 0at it 0as tat I %i,ed a2o"t a%t-oins
and its +%at%# tat te# are 4"st -ompetition. Im tr#in/ to +i/"re o"t i+ tis
-an/es m# perspe-tive on tat and( i+ so( o0; (La"/) ?o" ,no0; 8&5))5>*:
SM: I dont tin, it matters 0at 0e tin, o+ it. O2vio"s%#( #o"d pro2a2%#
a/ree 0it tat. I tin, te in-entives are a%i/ned in te s#stem +or peop%e to
-reate a%ts( and to -reate %a#ered proto-o%s on top o+ Bit-oin( and +or peop%e to
-reate side$-ains( and an#tin/ e%se te# -an tin, o+ 2e-a"se (%a"/) o+ te
ver# nat"re o+ Bit-oin. It 2ein/ open$so"r-e( and 2ein/ de-entra%i6ed( and
2ein/ a mar,et$driven tin/ 0ere peop%e are tr#in/ to -reate( and -ontri2"te
va%"e to te 0or%d( and ope+"%%#( 2e re0arded +or p"ttin/ o"t va%"e. So( I tin,
te#re /onna pop "p and (%a"/) tere is no 0a# to stop tem ri/t; 8&5)&5F>:
ABL: (La"/) 8&5)&5FG:
SM: (La"/) 7and it%% a%% 4"st 0or, itse%+ o"t 2e-a"se i+ peop%e dont %i,e a
-ertain a%t or side$-ain or dont +ind it "se+"% ten te# 4"st 0ont "se it and
tat%% 2e te end o+ 8te: stor#. Its -omp%ete%# pea-e+"%( -reative destr"-tion.
Im s"re tere%% 2e a %ot o+ a%t-oins and a %ot o+ ideas %i,e tis tat are /oin/ to
+ai% and tats +ine. Tats s"pposed to appen. 8&5)&5>H:
ABL: I do ave a s%i/t%# se%+is reason +or 2rin/in/ tis "p5 tis so0 is -a%%ed
DLets Ta%, Bit-oinE and 0ere /ettin/ in-reasin/%# more -omments sa#in/
De#( 0ere not ta%,in/ a2o"t Bit-oin eno"/.E So I a-t"a%%# 0o"%d %i,e7
8&5)'5)<:
SM: (La"/) 8&5)'5&):
ABL: 7to ta%, to #o" /"#s a2o"t sometin/. I tin, tat 0e so"%d -an/e
te name o+ te so0 to DLets Ta%, Bit-oin and Be#ond.E I +ee% %i,e7 8&5)'5&G:
SM: !mm7 8&5)'5&H:
ABL: 7tats ,ind o+ te dire-tion 0e are movin/ in. Stepanie( I eard not so
/reat7 (%a"/) 7Im open to oter s"//estions 2"t Im 4"st sa#in/ DI ave a
snea,in/ s"spi-ion 8tat: 0e are /oin/ to 0ant to re2rand as sometin/ tat
/ives "s a %itt%e 2it more 2readt to -over 0ats ne0.E 8&5)'5F*:
SM: I 0as 4"st7 A%% I -o"%d tin, o+ 0as DBit-oin and Be#ondE (La"/) Li,e
DBed( Bat( and Be#ond.E 8&5)'5*):
ABL " SM: (La"/) 8&5)'5*&:
SM: I tin, tats rea%%# 0ort ta%,in/ a2o"t and 0e a-t"a%%# ad tat +eed2a-,(
not 4"st re-ent%#( 2"t prett# ear%# on. I mean7 (%a"/) 7as ear%# as7
8&5)'5>&:
ABL: (La"/) 7a rea%%# %on/ time. 8&5)'5>F:
SM: ?ea( #ea. Tere is te idea tat 0en a ne0 person +inds o"t a2o"t
Bit-oin7 I "nderstand tat o"r so0 is not rea%%# /eared +or te s"per ne0
"sers( a%to"/( tat is a 0a# tat some ne0 "sers do -ome to Bit-oin and
te# do %isten +rom episode & and te# tr# to +ind o"t a%% te# -an a2o"t it and
a2sor2 a%% te# -an. So( avin/ PBit-oin in te name ,ind o+ ma,es sense
2e-a"se peop%e are /oin/ to 2e %oo,in/ +or Bit-oin1 tats te +irst tin/ te#
ear a2o"t 0en te#re introd"-ed to te 0o%e e-os#stem 2"t te PBe#ond
part is important too 2e-a"se no0 0ere /oin/ 2e#ond. 3eve done a %ot o+
Bit-oin over te %ast #ear and no0 0ere /oin/ P2e#ond into te +"t"re.
8&5)F5F*:
AA: 3e%%( DLets Ta%, De-entra%i6ed C"rren-# @%at+orm Based On B%o-,-ain
Te-no%o/# @roo+$o+$3or, A%/oritm7E 8&5)F5*':
ALL: (La"/ter) 8&5)F5*F:
ABL: ?ea. EBa-t%#. Tan, #o" Andreas. 8&5)F5**:
ALL: (La"/ter) 8&5)F5*G:
SM: 3e -o"%d 4"st -a%% it7 8&5)F5*H:
AA: I mean te pro2%em is tat to most peop%e in te 0or%d it is eiter an
"n,no0n -on-ept o+ it is DBit-oin.E So( (%a"/) I tin, ,eepin/ te +o-"s on
Bit-oin 0en tis 2rand as not even #et spread +ar eno"/. 3itin o"r e-o
-am2er( its %i,e a%% o+ tese a%t-oins and interestin/ -onversations et-. et-.
2"t to most o+ te 0or%d( te +irst eBperien-e te#re /oin/ to ave 0it tis
2rand is Bit-oin and 0i%% 2e Bit-oin +or man# #ears to -ome. It ta,es a %on/
0i%e to /et 2e#ond tat. Im per+e-t%# app# 0it DLets Ta%, Bit-oinE even
to"/ te -onversation is m"- more a2o"t te distri2"ted 2%o-,-ain
-onsens"s net0or, and a%% o+ its app%i-ations. I tin, Bit-oin moni,er sort$-"t
+or tat +or most peop%e. 8&5)*5FG:
ABL: I tin, tat #o"re pro2a2%# ri/t. Id rea%%# %i,e to /et %istener opinions on
tis one( too. AdamTLetsTa%,Bit-oin.-om i+ #o"d %i,e to sare #o"r
perspe-tive. Li,e Ive said DOver te (%a"/) #ears7 over te #ear 0eve
ad7E 8&5)*5>):
SM: DOver te #ear.E (La"/) 8&5)*5>F:
ABL: D7="ite a +e0 -omments a2o"t tis eBa-t tin/ 2e-a"se( +rom ear%# on(
tis so0 as a%0a#s( +or me( 2een a vei-%e +or te st"++ tat I tin, is
interestin/. So( a %ot o+ times( tats Bit-oin 2"t a %ot o+ times its not. A %ot o+
times tere are rea%%# neat pro4e-ts tat 0e -an %earn +rom. A/ain( +or me(
tats 0at tis is a%% a2o"t1 tats 0at I tin, 0e are rea%%# doin/ ere 0it
-r#pto-"rren-#. 3ere /oin/ do0n tis pat +or te +irst time tat no2od# as
(%a"/) /one do0n and +a%%in/ over te tin/s tat are %e+t in te 0a# and ten
sa# Do,a#( 0e%% tere is sometin/ #o" +a%% over. @i-, tat "p and move it o"t o+
te 0a#. A%ri/t( tere 0e /o. Lets ,eep /oin/.E
3e /et -omments( Andreas( a2o"t 0en #o"re not on te so0( +or eBamp%e(
and #o"r pi-t"re is on te -over art. @eop%e are %i,e Do. Tats disonest.E So
I tr# to +ind a 2a%an-e in tese tin/s7 8&5)>5F9:
SM: (La"/) 8&5)>5F<:
ABL: 72"t I tin, tat #o"re ri/t1 PBit-oin is important. 8&5)>5*):
AA: 3e%%( sin-e tis is Apri% Joo%s toda#( I 0as eBpe-tin/ #o" 0o"%d -ome
2a-, 0it a s"//estion to rename te so0 DLets Ta%, DOAE.E 8&5)>5*9:
ALL: (La"/) 8&5)>5>):
AA: Tats o,a#. Over time( as Ive 0or,s in tis spa-e( Ive 2e-ome m"-
more open to te a%t-oins. I tin, 0en I started I 0as ver# +o-"sed on Bit-oin
and no0 I tin, 0ere /oin/ to %ive in a ver# p%"ra%isti- m"%ti$-oin 0or%d 2"t
a/ain( its sti%% a%% a2o"t Bit-oin at a ver# 2asi- %eve%. A%% o+ tese a%t-oins rea%%#
rein+or-e tis same -on-ept o+ de-entra%i6ed -"rren-# and most peop%e are
not %oo,in/ at "nderstandin/ te di++eren-e 2et0een Bit-oin( Lite-oin( DOAE(
and Name-oin1 te#re interested in "nderstandin/ te di++eren-e 2et0een
de-entra%i6ed -"rren-ies( s"- as Bit-oin( and teir eBistin/ stat"s ="o 0i-
is tese pie-es o+ /reen( -otton paper -overed in /erms and -o-aine.
8&5)G5*):
SM: (La"/) Im 4"st tin,in/( i+ #o" ad a pod-ast and tis 0as ,inda %i,e
2e+ore pod-asts 2"t i+ #o" ad a pod-ast -a%%ed DA%% A2o"t NapsterE in &<<H(
or 9( or 0atever and ten it 0ent on +or a -o"p%e #ears and s"dden%# #o"re
not ta%,in/ a2o"t Napster an#more1 #o"re ta%,in/ a2o"t a%% ,inds o+ +i%e
sarin/ st"++. I tin, tat 0o"%d 2e +ine. @eop%e 0o"%d +or/ive it and it 0o"%d 2e
%oo,ed at as a istori-a% at tip( #o" ,no0; 8&5)H5&):
AA: ?ea. EBa-t%#7 8&5)H5&&:
ABL: I tin, its a /ood point. 8&5)H5&F:
AA: 7and tats even to"/ Napster /ot s"t do0n and #o" sti%% ta%, a2o"t it
toda# as7 8&5)H5&G:
SM: (La"/) Ki/t;. 8&5)H5&H:
AA: 7an ar-et#pa% demonstration o+ te +i%e$sarin/ -on-ept and Bit-oin as
not 2een s"t do0n. (La"/) Its stron/er tan ever. 8&5)H5'G:
ABL: So teres one more tin/ I 0ant to -over ere toda# and I tin, its ,ind
o+ te oter side o+ a%% o+ tis. On te one and #o"ve /ot -ompetition -omin/
+rom te open$so"r-e spa-e 2"t I tin, tat te oter side o+ s"--ess( to"/(
is te inevita2i%it# o+ -ompanies %i,e Aoo/%e or potentia%%# @a#@a% -omin/ in
0it teir o0n -ompetin/ so%"tions 2e-a"se( a/ain( -r#pto -"rren-#( sin-e its
open$so"r-e( as te a2i%it# to ave an#2od# -ome in and ta,e a%% te parts
tat te# %i,e( add a%% te parts tat te# 0o"%d %i,e to add on tat avent #et
2een added( and re%ease it as teir o0n +or ever#one to "se and ten
-ompete in tis mar,et. So( te -ompetition( on te one and( is /reat
2e-a"se #o" -ant stop someone +rom -ompetin/ 2"t( on te oter and( it
means tat ma#2eIStepanie7 to #o"r point ear%ierIma#2e 0e ave a %ot
%ess %i2ertarian -r#pto-"rren-ies -omin/ o"t.
So( one o+ te ideas tats 2een tossed aro"nd re-ent%# is tis Aoo/%e-oin
idea tat 2asi-a%%# 0o"%d +iB te pro2%ems o+ Bit-oin and remove te
anon#mit#Itis is a -on-ept tat I +irst ta%,ed 0it Car%es Hos,inson
a2o"t7 Aos( it 0o"%d ave 2een H or 9 monts a/o7 and e %aid o"t tis
sit"ation5 o0 #o" -o"%d see a ne0 -oin -ome in tat is 2a-,ed 2# a ma4or
-orporation %i,e Aoo/%e tat as %o22#in/ po0er and it -an/es one or t0o
minor tin/s 2"t its 2randed( it as a mar,etin/ -ampai/n 2eind it in a 0a#
tat Bit-oin never as. So( tat -o"%d( in is estimation at te time( s"persede(
essentia%%#( 0at 0ere doin/ ere 0it Bit-oin 2"t Im 0onderin/ i+( +irst o++(
#o" tin, sometin/ %i,e tat is possi2%e in te -"rrent environment and(
se-ond%#( i+ tat 0o"%d a-t"a%%# 2e a +ai%"re on te part o+ -r#pto-"rren-# or i+
its 4"st a di++erent 0a# tat -r#pto-"rren-# deve%ops; 8&5)<5)&:
SM: Hmmm7 tat mi/t 2e inevita2%e( too( onest%# and i+ it is( ten tere is
notin/ 0e -an do to stop it. I /"ess te ="estion is D0i%% te# -an/e it so
m"- tat it%% 2e %ess eB-itin/;E 3at I mean 2# tat is5 Bit-oin is /reat
2e-a"se it ma,es a %ot o+ tin/s eas#1 it so%ves pro2%ems. It so%ves te
pro2%em o+ ma,in/ sma%% pa#ments( ma,in/ pa#ments on%ine( ma,in/
pa#ments a-ross 2orders( and a%% ,inds o+ oter m#riad o+ pro2%ems 2"t tose
are 4"st te ver#( ver# 2asi- ones. So( are te# /oin/ to -an/e it i+ some2od#
%i,e Aoo/%e -omes o"t 0it teir o0n -oin; Are te# /oin/ to -an/e it to te
point 0ere it rea%%# doesnt so%ve tose pro2%ems an#more or are te# /oin/
to ,eep it so tat it rea%%# does ,eep tat ,ind o+ +ri-tion%ess "se -ase inta-t; I+
te# ma,e a s%i/t%# 2etter version a @a#@a%( is an#one /oin/ to rea%%# /oin/
to 2e rea%%# tat eB-ited a2o"t it; I dont ,no07 !a#2e it 0ont -apt"re
peop%es ima/ination. 8&5&)5)&:
AA: Teres on%# one -riti-a% ="estion 0i- is5 Dis te -ontro% de-entra%i6ed or
not;E I+ te -ontro% is de-entra%i6ed( te its simp%# one more -ompetitor
amon/ te a%t-oins and one more part o+ te spe-ies e-os#stem. I+ te -ontro%
is -entra%i6ed ten I eBpe-t( pro2a2%#( most -op#$-at attempts +rom %ar/e
-orporations 0i%% miss te point and 0i%% tr# to ma,e a -entra%i6ed -ontro% -op#$
-oin and nationa% /overnments( too. I+ te -ontro% is -entra%i6ed( ten it rea%%#
is 4"st a version o+ @a#@a% and it s"++ers +rom a%% o+ te pro2%ems o+ traditiona%
+iat -"rren-#1 its 4"st a di/ita% +iat -"rren-# 0it -entra%i6ed -ontro% instead o+ a
non$di/ita% one. In te end( 0at tat does is it -reates a -%osed net0or, +or
innovation 0i- means te innovation 0i%% %a/. It -reates -ontro% pro2%ems o+
-entra%i6ation( -ooption( -orr"ption( and a%% o+ te oter tin/s tat 0eve seen
2e+ore. It doesnt rea%%# -an/e an#tin/. Tese 0a%%ed /ardens 0i%% +ai%
2e-a"se te# 0i%% 2e "na2%e to innovate as +ast an open( distri2"ted( /%o2a%(
de-entra%i6ed net0or,. 8&5&&5&):
SM: Im sa#in/7 8&5&&5&':
AA: It%% 2e-ome Comp"Serves and te Comp"Serves and AOLs o+ te
Bit-oin spa-e. Event"a%%#( te# 0i%% +ai% to ,eep "p 2e-a"se 0i%e te# 0i%%
-%aim to de%iver more ="a%it# tro"/ -ontro%( te# 0i%% de%iver %ess diversit#(
and %ess ="a%it#( and %ess -ontent over time 2e-a"se o+ -ontro%. 8)&5&&5F&:
SM: 7and 0i%% an#2od# "se it; I+ it is a -entra%i6edII tin, tat is te ,e#
point Andreas5 are te# /oin/ to -entra%i6e it. I+ te# do7 @a#@a% a%read#
eBists and te# a%read# ave a "/e mar,et sare. So does C.@. !or/an. I+ 0e
ma,e a s%i/t%# 2etter version o+ tat 2"t its startin/ +rom 6ero 0it no
adoptersIAoo/%e tried to do Aoo/%eU1 te# tried to -ompete 0it Ja-e2oo,(
didnt o++er a tota%%# m"- di++erent prod"-t and not man# peop%e "se it. So( its
/onna 2e7 8&5&'5)*:
AA: A %ot o+ peop%e "se Comp"Serve and a %ot o+ peop%e "se oter s#stems
tat are -entra%i6ed 4"st 2e-a"se on inertia( and 2rand( and %a-, o+
"nderstandin/ o+ 0at te "nder%#in/ prin-ip%es are. Over time( te 0a%%ed
/arden ends "p %a//in/ 2eind in innovation. 3e sa0 tat 0it te di++eren-e
2et0een i@one and Android and 0ere seein/ it repeat a/ain in te Bit-oin
spa-e 2e-a"se o+ te i@one restri-tions. Over time( te e-os#stem aro"nd
Android as 2e-ome m"-( m"- ri-er and its innovation is a--e%eratin/
0ere te 0a%%ed /arden o+ te App%e( "nder -ontro%( is s"++erin/ +rom a%% o+ te
pro2%ems o+ 0a%%ed /ardens 2"t tat doesnt mean tat tere arent mi%%ions o+
peop%e aro"nd te 0or%d "sin/ it. It 4"st means tat tere are mi%%ions more
"sin/ Android no0 and its /rad"a%%# /ainin/ /ro"nd.
I tin, #o"re /oin/ to see te same tin/ i+ C.@ !or/an Case does a
Case-oin. Its /oin/ to 2e s"--ess+"% amon/ Case -"stomers 2e-a"se its
/oin/ to 2e s"perior to teir eBistin/ s#stems 2"t it 0ont -an/e te +a-t tat
it -annot so%ve te needs o+ a /%o2a%( transnationa% -omm"nit# tat depends
on an open net0or, 0it de-entra%i6ed tr"st. Jor tem( tis is not /oin/ to 2e
an appea%in/ so%"tion1 over time( te de-entra%i6ed so%"tion 0ins. Tat doesnt
mean7 8&5&F5F*:

SM: Is tat an opport"nit# to"/; Is tat an opport"nit# +or sometin/ %i,e
Bit-oin 2e-a"se i+ a mass n"m2er o+ peop%e 0ere to +ind o"t tat De#( tere
are tese virt"a% to,ens tat -an 2e "sed +or pa#ments and a%% ,inds o+ oter
tin/sE via Aoo/%e-oin ten event"a%%# te#%% sa# D#o" ,no07 Aoo/%e-oin
as some pro2%ems. I rea%%# dont %i,e it +or tese reasons. He#. Teres
sometin/ 2etter o"t tere. Teres Bit-oin.E It -o"%d 2e an opport"nit# to
a-t"a%%# a-t as a /ate0a# dr"/ to (%a"/) introd"-e peop%e to te rea% dea%
0i- is Bit-oin or a%t-oins. 8&5&F5>*:
AA: O #ea. Its a "/e mar,etin/ 2oost. It 0o"%d va%idate te entire -on-ept
o+ tese ne0 di/ita% to,ens and ten( tro"/ -omparison( it 0o"%d e%evate te
dis-"ssion a2o"t te di++eren-es 2et0een -entra%i6ed and de-entra%i6ed
-ontro% even i+( at +irst( tose on%# appeared as arti+a-ts or side e++e-ts o+ te
"nder%#in/ str"-t"re. 8&5&*5&H:
SM: Hmm7 8&5&*5&9:
AA: Te di++eren-e 2ein/ tat Case-oin is +ast( its se-"re( its re%ia2%e( and
its -eap 2"t #o" -ant send it to @a,istan( and #o" -ant7 8&5&*5'H:
SM: (La"/) 8&5&*5'9:
AA: 7send it a-ross 2orders( and #o" -ant send it to 3i,iLea,s( and #o"
-ant 2"# te tin/s #o" 0ant( and #o" -ant send it to #o"r re%atives in India.
Ten it 4"st 2e-omes in+erior in tat 0a#. Its %i,e D0e%%( #o" ,no0( I ,ind o+ %i,e
tis ne0 idea 2"t -an 0e do it 2etter in an open net0or,E and te open
net0or, 0ins. Te point is tat an# o+ te -entra%i6ed s#stems 0i%% provide
va%idation o+ te -ore idea 2"t te# 0i%% not 2e a2%e to ,eep "p 0it te
innovation and te# 0i%% not 2e a2%e to o++er te end$"sers te t#pe o+ -oi-e
and -ontro% tat an open net0or, o++ers. Arad"a%%#( over time( te# 0i%% ma,e
te 0ron/ de-isions 2e-a"se te# are +"rter and +"rter iso%ated +rom te
rea% so"r-e o+ in+ormation 0i- is te end$"ser and teir -oi-es. 3en #o"
ma,e tose de-isions in a -entra%i6ed manner( #o" end "p ma,in/ 0ron/
de-isions and tose 0ron/ de-isions a--"m"%ate over time "nti% #o" +a%%
+"rter( and +"rter 2eind te net0or, tat pi-,s te ri/t -oi-es a%% te time
2e-a"se te de-isions are made %o-a%%# 2# individ"a%s in a de-entra%i6ed
+asion. I tin, tat is te po0er s-a%e. Over time( te -omparison 0i%% 2e-ome
%ess( and %ess +%atterin/ +or te -entra%i6ed -oins 2"t 0i%% te# sti%% 2e more
enti-in/ tan +iat; 3i%% te# pers"ade peop%e tat teres a ne0 0or%d o+
-"rren-#; A2so%"te%#. So( Im %oo,in/ +or0ard to peop%e 4"mpin/ on tat
2and0a/on even i+ te# ma,e poor%# to"/t o"t( -eap -op#$-ats tat do not
a-ieve te /oa%s o+ Bit-oin. Te# 0i%% s"pport te overa%% -on-ept eiter 0a#.
8&5&G5)&:
ABL: In te +"t"re( 0ere /oin/ to 2e( as Ive mentioned 2e+ore( /oin/ to 2e
transitionin/ te so0 to a +ormat tats more o+ tese open dis-"ssions and
more +o-"sed on tese topi-s rater tan 2ein/ so intervie0 eav# a%to"/(
tere 0i%% sti%%( de+inite%#( 2e a %ot o+ intervie0s 4"st 2e-a"se tere are so man#
peop%e in te Bit-oin spa-e 0o 0e need to ta%, to( 2asi-a%%#( and 0o so"%d
ave a p%at+orm to 2e a2%e to sare teir ideas and pro4e-ts. So /"#sI
Andreas( StepanieII 4"st 0anted to sa# tan, #o" +or doin/ tis7 0e
avent done &)) episodes o+ eBp%i-it%# ost st"++ 2"t 0eve 2een doin/ tis +or
a %on/ time and in * episodes 0eve /ot o"r & #ear anniversar# -omin/ "p
and Im rea%%# %oo,in/ +or0ard to tis neBt pase o+ it 0it #o" 2e-a"se(
-%ear%#( te neBt #ear is /oin/ to 2e ver# di++erent tan tis %ast #ear. 8&5&G5*H:
SM: ?ea. Tan, #o" so m"-. Jrom te 2e/innin/( Ive 4"st 2een rea%%#
app# to 2e invo%ved 0it tis pro4e-t Adam. It -ame to/eter. 3e ta%,ed
a2o"t Lets Ta%, Bit-oin istor# on te so0 2e+ore 2"t te 0a# tat it -ame
to/eter 0as ,inda serendipito"s and it 4"st ended "p 2ein/ a rea%%#
prod"-tive( and +r"it+"% pro4e-t so Im 4"st tri%%ed to ave te opport"nit# to
0or, 0it 2ot o+ #o" and I %oo, +or0ard to te neBt #ear. 8&5&H5&&:
AA: ?ea( peop%e sometimes as, me 0at te se-ret to s"--ess is in tis
parti-"%ar spa-e and( as 0it 0ritin/ ere on tis a"dio prod"-tion( te se-ret
is to ave an in-redi2%# ta%ented editor and prod"-er 0o t"rns 2"%%sit 0e sa#
into 0onder+"%%# arti-"%ate narratives o+7 8&5&H5F':
SM: (La"/) 8&5&H5FF:
AA: 7i/ ="a%it# and #o" do tat ever# time so #o" +i%%7 8&5&F5&G:
ABL: Tan, #o".... 8&5&F5FH:
AA: 7a do"2%e ro%e 2ot as a ost 2"t a%so as an in-redi2%# ta%ented so"nd
en/ineer and tan, #o" so m"- +or /ivin/ "s tis p%at+orm. 8&5&H5*>:
ABL: 3e%%( tan, #o" ver# m"- +or te praise Andreas and tan, #o" #o"5
te %istener 0o as a-t"a%%# made tis sometin/ tat is 0ort0i%e doin/
2e-a"se( a%to"/ I do %ove earin/ te so"nd o+ m# o0n voi-e and Andreas
is a %ot o+ +"n to edit( it rea%%# is a2o"t ,ind o+ sarin/ tese ideas and tr#in/ to
ave tese -onversations in p"2%i- 2e-a"se te#re important -onversations
to ave. Jor me( tats 2een te most /rati+#in/ part a2o"t a%% o+ tese
eBperien-es tat Ive ad 0it peop%e 0o are %isteners. @eop%e -ome "p to
me( and Im s"re tat #o" /"#s /et tis( too( and sa# DI to"/t a2o"t Bit-oin
di++erent%#E or DI to"/t a2o"t -r#pto-"rren-# di++erent%# 2e+ore I started
%istenin/ to Lets Ta%, Bit-oin.E Tose -onversations in+%"en-e me. Car%ie
Srem said tat to me te oter da# and it 4"st tota%%# +%oored me. I 0as %i,e
D0o0. I ad no idea.E
A/ain( 0e ,ind o+ /ot in te /eneration a+ter a %ot o+ te s"per ear%# adopters(
a+ter te Ko/er Lers( and te Eri, Looreess( and te Car%ie Srems( and
peop%e %i,e tat 0o 0ere ,ind o+ te +irst /eneration. Tis episode is /oin/ to
2e +orever %on/ 2"t I ,ind o+ 4"st 0ant to ta%, a2o"t tis5 o0 man# peop%e
0eve seen +a%% not 4"st in terms o+ Car%ie Srem 2ein/ on o"se$arrest 2"t
4"st in terms o+ te amo"nt o+ peop%e 0o 0ere rea%%# 2i/ p%a#ers in te Bit-oin
spa-e +or te ear%# #ears and 0o ave eiter retreated o"t o+ te -o"ntr#( or
0o( 2asi-a%%#( ave dropped to a %o0er pro+i%e. I tin, Ko/er Ler is an
interestin/ eBamp%e o+ tat( 0o as 4"st 2e-ome so over0e%med 0it
pro4e-ts 8tat: it seems %i,e e as no p"2%i- presen-e( 0atsoever( an# more.
Te on%# person 0o rea%%# seems %i,e te# s"--eded( te on%# -ompan#
tats rea%%# s"--eeded +rom tat +irst /eneration as 2een Bit@a#. Im tr#in/ to
tin, o+ oter -ompanies tat are sti%% aro"nd( tat are sti%% re%evant as Bit@a#
is. Can #o" /"#s tin, o+ an#tin/ e%se or as te %e/a-# prett# m"- 2een
-%eaned o"t no0 0it AoB and BitInstant( and CoinLa2( and a%% tese oter
+o"ndationa% -ompanies tat are 4"st ,inda /one; 8&5&<5F*:
AA: Its te pro-ess o+ evo%"tion and 0i%e 0e o0e a %e/a-# o+ innovation to
a%% o+ tose 0o -ame 2e+ore( no0( te spa-e as evo%ved. Its 2e-ome m"-
2i//er( and m"- more -reative( and tere is so m"- more appenin/.
No0ada#s( its rea%%# ard to -ompete( not 2e-a"se no one e%se is 4oinin/
2e-a"se te# dont "nderstand it( 2"t 2e-a"se ever#one e%se is 4oinin/ and
/rad"a%%#7 8&5')5)&:
ALL: (La"/) 8&5')5)':
SM: 7and te# dont "nderstand it; 8&5')5)F:
AA: 3e%%( te -ompetition is /ettin/ +ier-e. Tere 8are: a %ot o+ ver#
sopisti-ated pro/rammers( and 2"siness mana/ers( and operations
mana/ers( and 4"st /enera%%# pro+essiona%s in te spa-e 0o are doin/ some
ama6in/ tin/s. So( tis is 2e-omin/ a ver# mainstream sit"ation ri/t no0
and tats /reat. It represents te evo%"tion into mainstream and( over time(
#o"re /oin/ to see ne0 +a-es( I tin, and tats a%0a#s a /ood tin/.
8&5')5F&:
SM: Adam( #o" said tat7 8&5')5FF:
ABL: So( #o" and Stepanie so"%d start Li2ertarian-oin; 8&5')5F*:
SM: (La"/) Bit-oin 0as Li2ertarian -oin and it sti%% -o"%d 2e. (La"/)
8&5')5*):
ABL: I ,no0( eBa-t%#( 2"t i+ its not no0( do 0e need to start anoter
Li2ertarian-oin; 8&5')5*F:
SM: (La"/) N/( I dont ,no01 tat -o"%d 4"st 2e-ome -o$opted( too. I 0o"%d
%i,e to preserve and onor te istor# o+ Bit-oin onest%# as a %i2ertarian
-"%t"re 2"t its a ne"tra% p%at+orm. ?es( as Andreas said( I -omp%ete%# a/ree
0it tat 2"t te -"%t"re s"rro"ndin/ it( at %east in te 2e/innin/( 0as
in-redi2%# va%"in/ o+ "man +reedom and vo%"ntar#( pea-e+"% intera-tions
2et0een peop%e. I 0o"%d %i,e to do a part to ,eep it tat 0a#. 8&5'&5&':
ABL: I tin, tat 0e -an -ertain%# do o"r part 2"t I tin, Bit-oin spea,s +or
itse%+ rea%%#( rea%%# 0e%%. I tin, its eBa-t%# tat prin-ip%e o+ vo%"nteerism and o+(
2asi-a%%#( on%# doin/ sometin/ tats in #o"r 2est interest 2e-a"se its in #o"r
2est interest. Te oter /"# on te oter side( e isnt doin/ sometin/ tats
a/ainst is 2est interest. He( a%so( is vo%"ntari%# sa#in/ Dtis is in m# 2est
interest1 tere+ore( 0e so"%d do tis.E Tats sometin/ tat( no matter 0at
#o" do 0it Bit-oin( #o" -ant /et a0a# +rom tat. Its not %i,e #o" -an 2e %i,e
Da%ri/t( 0e%% 0ere /oin/ to -an/e tis +"ndamenta% o+ it.E 8&5'&5**:
SM: ?ea( and tats a prin-ip%e tats 2een +or/otten over time. Its a ver#
2asi- prin-ip%e5 te idea o+ tradin/ 0it some2od# e%se +or m"t"a% 2ene+it. Tat
is one o+ te most 2asi- "man a-tivities tat 0eve 2een doin/ sin-e te
da0n o+ time 2"t its 2een +or/otten (%a"/) 2e-a"se 8in: so man# o+ o"r
intera-tions toda# tere is some2od# in te midd%e sa#in/ Dno. No. No. ?o"
-ant. ?o" -ant. ?o" -ant. ?o" /otta do tis( m"st do tat( -ant do tat.E
8&5''5&':
ABL: 7B"t 0# 0o"%d 0e -are i+ someone 0asnt tere doin/ tat;. 3#
0o"%d tis 2e7 I tota%%# a/ree 0it #o" Stepanie 2"t 0# 0o"%d tis 2e so
important to "s; 3# 0o"%d 0e 2e doin/ tis so0 i+ 0e didnt ave tat
pro2%em tro0in/ it in o"r +a-e a%% te time; Tis is sometin/ tats important1
tis is sometin/ tat 0e need to ave a%ternatives to. Tere needs to 2e
-ompetition 2e-a"se( %a-,in/ -ompetition( tere are on%# 2ad options.
8&5''5FF:
SM: I a/ree and tere is -ompetition and 0e sti%% ave te -an-e to sape
te dis-"ssion and tats 0# 0e do a so0 %i,e tis 8&5''5*&:
AA: Im %oo,in/ +or0ard to te neBt &)) episodes and te #ear tats to -ome
2e-a"se so man# in-redi2%e tin/s appened in te past #ear and so m"-
evo%"tion in tis spa-e. I -annot even ima/ine 0at Bit-oin is /oin/ to do no0
tat its rea-ed s"- a %eve% o+ a0areness a-ross te 0or%d. 3at -an
appen in te neBt #ear; It mi/t 2e ama6in/ and it mi/t 2e terri2%e 2"t its
pro2a2%# /oin/ to 2e most%# ama6in/ I tin, and 0ere /oin/ to see some
in-redi2%e /ro0t in tis ne0 -on-ept o+ -r#pto -"rren-ies and te 2%o-,-ain
te-no%o/# and Im %oo,in/ +or0ard to it1 I rea%%# am. 8&5'F5&<:
ABL: ?ea. Tin/s 0i%% 2e di++erent. Tats te one tin/ tat I +ee% rea%%#
-om+orta2%e predi-tin/ is tat te sit"ation a #ear +rom no0 0i%% 2e
a//ressive%# di++erent and Apri% Joo%s a #ear +rom no0 is /oin/ to 2e
a//ressive%# di++erent tan it is toda#. Its 0i%d. Im as app# as -an 2e to 2e in
te position to ,ind o+ 0at- a%% o+ tis and a-t"a%%# ave some ,ind o+ idea o+
("/e %a"/) 0ats /oin/ on 2e-a"se tis is a ver# important time and ver#
+e0 peop%e a-t"a%%# "nderstand an#tin/ a2o"t it. 8&5'F5*9:
C"st to 0rap "p5 /"#s( #o" never /ive #o"r e$mai% addresses. @%ease7
8&5'F5>&:
AA: 7rea- o"t to me (a"dio /%it-) TLetsTa%,Bit-oin.-om. Im %oo,in/
+or0ard to a #ear o+ intera-tin/ 0it te -omm"nit# and %earnin/ as m"- as I
-an +rom a%% o+ #o". 8&5'*5)):
SM: ...and #o" -an e$mai% me at StepanieTLetsTa%,Bit-oin.-om. 8&5'*5)<:
ABL: 7and #o" -an a%0a#s /et me at AdamTLetsTa%,Bit-oin.-om. A"#s(
tan, #o" ver# m"- +or tis. Tis as 2een an epi-a%%# %on/ episode. Have a
/reat -o"p%e o+ da#s. 8&5'*5&H:
Adam makes a closin) statement!
ABL: Tan,s +or %istenin/ to episode &)) o+ Lets Ta%, Bit-oin. Content +or
toda#s episode 0as provided 2# Andreas !. Antonopo%o"%os( Stepanie
!"rp#( and Adam B. Levine. !"si- +or tis episode 0as provided 2# Cared
K"2ens and Aenera% J"66. An# ="estions or -omments; E$mai%
AdamTLetsTa%,Bit-oin.-om. 8&5&*5F<: