THE HON MARK DREYFUS QC MP

SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL
SHADOW MINISTER FOR THE ARTS
MEMBER FOR ISAACS
E&OE TRANSCRIPT
DOORSTOP INTERVIEW
MELBOURNE
SATURDAY, 20 SEPTEMBER 2014
SUBJECT/S: Anti-terror raids; national security.
MARK DREYFUS, SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL Theres been a lot of
press reporting today in the aftermath of the raids conducted by the
Australian Federal Police and NSW and Queensland Police last week Some
of that reporting! of course! rightly says that our security agencies ha"e
done a good #ob in interrupting a planned terror e"ent
They ha"e used e$isting powers! e$isting resources! to interrupt that
planned terror e"ent %n similar ways to the ways in which our police!
working with AS%&! ha"e been able to interrupt and foil four ma#or planned
terrorist e"ents o"er the past few years! which resulted in people being
charged! taken to court! con"icted and #ailed for lengthy #ail terms
% think its important that people keep in perspecti"e that we do ha"e "ery
competent! "ery professional security agencies Australians can ha"e
con'dence in the work that they ha"e been doing and will continue to do
% saw also in the reports today some analysis of people who ha"e left
Australia to go and #oin terrorist organisations 'ghting in Syria! that
remains a matter of concern Something that (abor is interested in
pursuing with the )o"ernment! and of course we ha"e been working "ery
constructi"ely with the )o"ernment in relation to making sure that our
agencies do ha"e proper resources! proper powers! one of the ideas that
were interested in pursuing with the )o"ernment is making the process of
cancelling passports so that Australians who are intending to go to 'ght
with a terror group in Syria can not do so! making that process easier
This is a suggestion that the %ndependent National Security (egislation
*onitor made earlier in the year When he made that suggestion! at that
time we said that that was an idea worth pursuing We still think its an
idea worth pursuing! because anything that can be done to pre"ent
Australians from going to 'ght with these terrorist groups in Syria! or now
in %ra+! is something that we should do
!OURNALIST ,a"e you seen the draft legislation for the new anti-terror
laws.
DREYFUS Theres a bill presently in the Parliament! of course! that the
)o"ernment introduced in /uly That bill will be further debated ne$t week
Thats bills got a range of measures which update AS%&s powers and it
builds on work that (abor was doing in go"ernment! proposals that (abor
'rst put forward in *ay 0120! that the %ntelligence 3ommittee
recommended go forward in /une 0124! and the )o"ernment in /uly 0125
has brought forward a package of measures
Well be making a 'nal decision on *onday when we see the amendments
to that bill! that the )o"ernment has said that it is going to bring in!
accepting recommendations that the %ntelligence 3ommittee has made
And as well ne$t week we ha"e been ad"ised by the )o"ernment that the
)o"ernment is proposing to bring forward another bill! which has further
measures to e$pand the powers that are a"ailable to! in particular AS%&
Well look at that bill when its brought forward We ha"ent been shown
the bill up to this time! although we ha"e been briefed by the )o"ernment
on what the )o"ernment! in the broad! says the bill is going to contain
!OURNALIST )enerally speaking though! do you see that! % suppose!
increasing the powers of AFP and AS%& in conducting anti-terror
operations! do you see that going forward! are almost paramount
importance.
DREYFUS % think that when one is talking about what powers the
agencies should ha"e - thats AS%& and the Australian Federal Police and
state police forces - what resources they should ha"e - it needs to be put
in the conte$t of the "ery 'ne work thats been able to be done with
e$isting powers! the "ery 'ne work thats been able to be done with the
resources pro"ided up to this time And that! of course! includes the work
done last week by the Australian Federal Police and state police forces in
interrupting a planned terror e"ent
%f the )o"ernment is proposing that there should be a further e$pansion of
powers! and again we should keep in mind that there were "ery large
e$tensions of the powers a"ailable to AS%& back in 0116 and 0117! in the
wake of the 8ali bombing and the (ondon tube bombings %f the
)o"ernment is proposing yet further e$tensions! the )o"ernment should
be welcoming public debate about those proposed e$tensions! welcoming
public scrutiny! welcoming Parliamentary scrutiny! because it is necessary
for go"ernments to make a case when theyre proposing e$tensions of
power
!OURNALIST What about the penalties to those who think they can
engage in some of the acti"ities % know they are allegations before the
courts at the moment! but some of the things we were hearing! random
beheadings! what sort of penalties should these people face for those
sorts of intentions.
DREYFUS There are "ery! "ery se"ere penalties already pro"ided in the
3ommonwealth 3riminal 3ode and in State criminal law for the kinds of
criminal o9ences that you:re talking about there
*urder! participating in a terror organisation! causing serious in#ury! any
kind of planned commission of a mass atrocity e"ent! all of these o9ences
carry "ery! "ery hea"y penalties already and we:"e seen that the courts
are prepared to impose "ery hea"y #ail terms! e"en for preparatory stages!
that is planning to commit this sort of o9ence well before the o9ence has
been committed
The four terror plots that ha"e been interrupted by pre"ious work o"er the
last few years! all of them! happily! were all interrupted before any harm
was done to any Australian and in
e"ery case hea"y penalties were imposed by the courts for the o9ences
that were committed
!OURNALIST ;inaudible< torture loophole in AS%& legislation. This was
ne"er brought to the attention of the %ntelligence 3ommittee %f the
bipartisan committee isn:t concerned about it why are you.
DREYFUS % think that the Attorney-)eneral has a duty to make it clear
that in no sense can any part of Australian law be interpreted as pro"iding
an immunity for the commission of an act of torture
That:s what this pro"ision is about %t:s a pro"ision which gi"es immunity
to AS%& employees who are engaged in a Special %ntelligence &peration! it
gi"es immunity from prosecution for the criminal law
This matter:s now been raised % think there is a duty on the )o"ernment
to put it absolutely beyond doubt We need to hear more from the
)o"ernment about this and it might be a matter of #ust a simple
amendment that can be made to this legislation! which is being debated
in the Parliament ne$t week! that absolutely puts beyond doubt that
there:s no immunity anywhere in Australian law that could in any way
suggest that an Australian )o"ernment employee could engage in an act
of torture
!OURNALIST Anthony 8yrne has called on the Prime *inister to ensure
the /oint %ntelligence 3ommittee has #urisdiction o"er the AFP ;inaudible<
changes to the police power ,a"e you made representation to the
)o"ernment to that e9ect.
DREYFUS % think as a matter of principle! when there is a discussion of
e$tending powers a"ailable to intelligence agencies or police! you:"e got
to gi"e at the same time consideration to whether or not there should be a
greater le"el of o"ersight
=ou:"e seen #ust recently! last week the %ntelligence 3ommittee looking at
the )o"ernment:s bill that:s going to be debated ne$t week! saying in
relation to the Special %ntelligence &perations that there should be more
o"ernight by the %nspector-)eneral of %ntelligence and Security
The )o"ernment said that it:s going to accept that recommendation! we
will see what the amendment looks like when it:s brought forward by the
)o"ernment ne$t week! but that:s a good e$ample of why when new
powers are being gi"en! powers are being e$tended! you should also
consider whether or not there needs to be more o"ersight
The reason for that is that Australians want to know that their agencies!
our intelligence agencies! our police forces ha"e got su>cient powers! but
they also want to know that those powers are being properly used and the
way you do that is by pro"iding o"ersight and by pro"iding accountability
mechanisms
What *r 8yrne was talking about there was that kind of principle! that if
the )o"ernment is proposing an e$tension of power then at the same time
consideration needs to be gi"en to additional o"ersight
!OURNALIST So the A83 understands that the new laws will include a
change to the pre"entati"e detention allowing security forces to detain
terrorism suspects if there:s an attack likely in the ne$t 25 days What do
you think of that position and why.
DREYFUS The pre"entati"e detention power was put into the AS%&
legislation in 0116 in the wake of the 8ali bombing and the (ondon tube
bombing At that time! because it was recognised as being a e$traordinary
power! a power thats really at odds with traditional policing and
traditional methods of arrest and +uestioning! there was a sunset
pro"ision put on that power so that it will e$pire in! % think it:s ?ecember
0126
%f it:s proposed that this power which! as % understand it! has ne"er been
used - its also a power that the %ndependent National Security (egislation
*onitor said should be repealed in his report of earlier this year The 3&A)
re"iew from last year also said that the power should be repealed
%f the )o"ernment:s now proposing that this power should be made
permanent! which is! % think! some of the language the )o"ernment:s
used! the )o"ernment:s really got to make that case %t:s a power that! if it
hasn:t been used for nearly a decade since it was included in Australian
law! you:d ha"e to ask! gi"en that there ha"e been terror plots foiled in
that time! none of those intelligence acti"ities or agency acti"ities then
use the pre"entati"e detention power
%f it hasn:t been used and we ha"e had threats! you:d ha"e to ask why is it
that the )o"ernment is now saying that power needs to be made
permanent % think there:s some debate ahead of us on this point
% think that Australians are entitled to know when any go"ernment! be it
(abor or (iberal! is proposing an e$tension of powers a"ailable to police
and intelligence agencies The public is entitled to be able to participate in
a debate and to hear from )o"ernment what it is that is the reason for an
e$tension of power
!OURNALIST Would (abor support an e$tension of the powers.
DREYFUS We need to! % think! discuss this more with intelligence
agencies We need to ha"e the )o"ernment put forward a clear and
considered case as to why the pre"entati"e detention power is still
needed! gi"en that it:s been on the statute book since 0116! hasn:t been
used
And bear in mind what its nature is - this is a power that enables
pre"entati"e detention and in that time the person who has been detained
cannot be +uestioned by AS%& or by the AFP
A lot of police forces ha"e said to me! and to the %ndependent National
Security (egislation *onitor! that they:d be concerned about pre"entati"e
detention because! as far as their e$perience tells them! it:s far better to
use e$isting powers to continue +uestioning rather than simply detain
Thanks "ery much
ENDS