TALPUR Nationalism, Federalism and Separatism: The Case of Balochistan DEC 7 2015

----- Original Message ----From: Mir Mohammad Ali Talpur

To: Mir Mohammad Ali Talpur
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 12:41 PM
Subject: Nationalism, Federalism and Separatism: The Case of Balochistan - My Interview with Gul
Awar Khan
Dear Friends Gull Awar Khan interviewed me. The interview was conducted in March 2013. At the
time Gull Awar Khan was a research fellow at Westminster University and was working towards a
PhD, titled, Nationalism, Federalism and Separatism: The Case of Balochistan in Pakistan. The
interview was audio-recorded and below we present the transcript.
Pakistan has never been a Federation and never will be. Mir Mohammad Ali Talpur

Nationalism, Federalism and Separatism: The Case of Balochistan

by Interviewee: Mir Mohammad Ali Talpur Interviewer: Gull Awar Khan
First Posted: 12-04-15 06:06 PM | Updated: 12-06-15 12:14 AM
http://nakedpunch.com/articles/242

Mr. Talpur

Mir Mohammad Ali Talpur in 1987

In the fall of 1971, Mir Mohammad Ali Talpur (MM Talpur) decided to leave his life
as a student to go struggle for Baloch rights. Inspired by his understanding that
injustice and neglect had alienated the Baloch people, he felt this was a time to stand
alongside them. Little did he know that this could be the last time he would return
home and see his family. He ended up staying with the Baloch for the greater part of

his
life,
both
in
Balochistan
and
in
exile
http://www.tanqeed.org/2015/05/the-mm-talpur-story-part-i/

in

Afghanistan.

Gull Awar Khan (GAK): Mir Sahib, briefly introduce yourself.

Mir Mohammad Ali Talpur (MMAT): I am Mir Mohammad Ali Talpur. I live here in Hyderabad Sindh.
Actually we Talpurs came here in Sindh from Balochistan some 350 years ago. They have also ruled
over Sindh for 60 years from 1783 to 1843 till the battle of Miani when the British defeated the Talpurs
and the Baloch here. But the influence of Talpurs still remains in Sindh. They have very good and old
relations with the people here. Other dynasties who ruled in Sindh or other areas, their people are no
more, because perhaps the Talpurs served the people, that is why they still remain here.
And my fathers politics was against the British. He was in Khaksaar Tehreek and (All India)
Congress. After that he remained in politics here, mostly in opposition but for a short period of time he
was the Defense Minister in (General) Zias regime.
From 1971 to 1991 I was with the Baloch especially with the Marri tribe. I lived in Marri area and then
in Afghanistan for 13 years as a refugee. I came back in 1991. After coming back I lived a quiet life as
I, by nature, live a quiet life.
I write whenever I found an opportunity to write. Previously I wrote for Post which used to be issued
from Lahore. Then I wrote few articles for Dawn. But since my friend and fellow traveler Rashed
Rehman became editor in chief of Daily Times I began writing for Daily Times. I still write for Daily
Times. Thats the avocation I generally have.
GAK: Mir Sahib, could you say something about Baloch, who are they?
MMAT: Baloch is a nation in its own right. Baloch history is disputed, where they have come from,
their origin. There are quite a few things which are not settled yet. For example the Arabs say that the
Baloch are Arab, i.e. they claim that. The point is that because they have their own language, their
own history, their own culture, they are a nation by themselves. Baloch is a nation itself.
People usually dont understand this. They mix it up as they say Balochi is a part of Farsi or Dari,
something like that. But in fact Balochi, Dari, Kurdi and Farsi are of the same stock, Indo-European
language stock. It is by itself a language. It is not an off-shoot of something but a language in itself.
And Baloch is a nation. It assumed the status of a nation, political status as a nation, as culturally it
has always been a nation and it will remain as such but politically it became a nation under Naseer
Khan Noori and also Dost Mohammad Khan in Irani Balochistan.
Baloch is divided at present into many areas. Some parts of it are occupied as Balochistan in
Pakistan, a part of it is in Punjab is occupied as Punjab. I think the population of Baloch in Sindh is
quite a lot. It is not in a minority as such here in Sindh as well.
So, Baloch is a nation culturally, historically and geographically as well. They live on their own
contiguous geographical area. It starts from Sindh and it goes all the way up till the parts in Iran,
Afghanistan also has a large Baloch population. So, Baloch historically, culturally and geographically
they are a nation.
GAK: Mir Sahib, then the theorists say that the nations are formed, states are formed, and when it
comes to the federation, where these lingual, ethnic, national groups come together and make a
contract and then a federation is formed with consent, Pakistan is also a federation since the 1947.
So, what is your opinion on this how it is formed or what consent?
MMAT: In fact no. The Baloch did no consent at all to be in this federation. Because, on 4 th August
1947 there was a Standstill Agreement between the British, Pakistan and Khan Kalat; the Standstill
Agreement which stated the status quo will be maintained. Since, the agreement between the British

and Kalat, I think, in 1876, under that treaty Kalat had special status and Standstill Agreement
accepted that and Pakistan was a signatory to it. Then on 11 th August 1947 Kalat was declared
independent. Although it was on the 15 th that it was officially announced but it was first announced on
11th and All India Radio too reported it. And Y. B. Fell, the Foreign Minister of Kalat and I think he was
the Prime Minister as well, in his book says that independence of Kalat, it was Balochistan, was
announced on 11th August.
And as far as federation is concerned, federation needs to have consent. And federation has to admit
and accept the rights of the federating units. But here that has never happened. It was never
conceived as such by the persons who got to rule Pakistan. They never wanted it. If they had wanted
a federation, they would have never said that, Jinnah would have never said in Dhaka in March 1948
that it is Urdu and Urdu alone will be the language of this region, of this new entity. It never accepted
the federating units as units. It wanted the imposition of its own ideology.
For example they always emphasize that because of Islam and being of the same religion as being
Muslims we are a same nation. But as Ghaus Bakhsh Bizanjo in his December 1947 speech in the
Lower House of Balochistan said that, if it is so that the Muslims are a nation then why not make
Afghanistan, Arabs and all others a single nation. So, it was on the false premises; religion being a
determinant of a nation. Pakistan tried to impose their own ideology, their own establishments rule
over all other units which included Sindh, Frontier (NWFP) and Balochistan. Punjab never resisted it
as they knew that they would always dominate it. And Bengalis, they too suffered because Pakistan
never envisaged a federating state. It was always a unity state, it is still not a federation.
For example, although, the present set up in Balochistan, the assemblies, the government and all that
they are very submissive and at the beck and call of the Pakistani state. But they too werent
consulted while Gwadar was being handed over to China. So, it has never been a federation and it
will never be a federation. It is just here, might is the right. All those who have power do whatever
they want. And as you see Punjab has got the army. And sadly, the Frontier Corps (FC) is all
Pashtun. They dont sort of subscribe to the federation. They dont subscribe to the view of a
federation. Pakistan can never be a federation. Because mostly Punjab, Mostly because of Punjab,
they wouldnt accept it. They havent ever accepted it. They will not accept it.
GAK: Then Mir Sahib, what advantages and disadvantages does the Pakistani federal structure have
for the Baloch?
MMAT: Definitely, I dont think there is any advantages, ANY advantage for the Baloch. There has
never been any advantage for the Baloch in this federation. Because, for example, when Kalat was
forcibly annexed to Pakistan on 27th March 1948, then too they didnt get their rights. Then in 1955 the
One Unit was announced. That wasnt anything else but an attempt to deprive even the Bengalis of
their majority rights. Because, West Pakistan was something inconceivable; it was not an entity as
such. Because, federating units were there. Even if one goes back to the Pakistan resolution which
envisaged independent states forming a federation. But never a One Unit as such they wanted. And
that has been the bane of this country. Because, initially minus Balochistan, minus Kalat, because,
they didnt want to see it as an independent state.
There was a lot of goodwill for Pakistan in the initial stages up here in Sindh. The people here
welcomed the refugees with an open heart and open arms and gave them places over here. It was
their goodwill. They really wanted this thing to happen. They saw dreams over here but those dreams
were shattered very soon; as soon as Jinnah said that it is only Urdu that will be the language, and
Liaqat Ali and others put forward the Objectives Resolution. They started giving lands over here and
rights over here to the Mohajirs (Indian refugees) who came here and claimed properties over here.
So the people understood that.
In Balochistan theyve never been because, it was not only in 1948 that there was an army action
because Agha Abdul Karim went off and struggled in Afghanistan and all other Baloch who were
struggling. Most of the Baloch leadership, during that period was also, like Mir Gul Khan Naseer,
Khair Bakhsh Khan and others were either kept in exile in Sindh or kept in jail here in Hyderabad.
Sher Mohammad Marri was in jail, Atta-ullah Mengal was in jail. And in 1958 when the Martial Law
was imposed, they imposed the Martial Law on the excuse of accusing Khan Kalat trying to separate

from Pakistan with an agreement and collaborating with Afghanistan. Martial Law was imposed on
that excuse; that the Khan of Kalat wanted to break up Pakistan. Khan Kalat was imprisoned; the
Miree (Kalat City) was attacked and looted.
It was then that Nawab Nauroz Khan and others who fought alongside him. And you know what
happened in consequence of that. Nawab Nauroz Khan was incarcerated as well as his sons. I think
his two sons and other friends were incarcerated, some in Hyderabad and some in Sukkur Jail. On
15th July (1960), after summary trials, they were hanged. Four of them in Sukkur and three of them in
Hyderabad Jail.
So, Pakistans federation, I insist that it has never been a federation. That is my basic argument that it
has never been a federation. Even if, supposedly, just for the arguments sake, you accept it, it has
never helped the federating units except for those who the ruling elite wanted to benefit. The
federation has never existed over here. I dont suppose it will ever come over here.
And Baloch have always been at a disadvantage in this entire history since 27 th March 1948, 65 years
since that.
GAK: Mir Sahib, as we are talking about the federation, what are the major problems and grievances
of Baloch as they are within the federation? What do Baloch want?
MMAT: I think, for a long time, Baloch want independence. Because, you should understand that the
Baloch, people like Nawab Khair Bakhsh Khan or Sher Mohammad Khan always talked about
independence only. They always demanded that. And I think Baloch still want the same. All the
movements like in 1948 of Agha Abdul Karim, in 1958 Nawab Nauroz Khans, then from 1962 to 1969
Sher Mohammad Khan and Ali Mohammad Mengals. Their attitude had gradually hardened by time.
Those who perhaps didnt want independence of Balochistan from Pakistan before, but due to the
attitude of Pakistan were compelled to demand independence.
Among the leaders, few always had the same position that Balochistan should be independent. For
example, Khair Bakhsh Khan, initially perhaps Ghaus Bakhsh Bizanjo was also into this but he slowly
changed his standpoint. Atta-ullah who does not seem to view it the way he used to. But to the level
that the movement of Baloch is going on in Balochistan, the resistance against Pakistan, they
dont agree to anything short of independence. They only want independence.
And as you see that since 2005 the Baloch movement has emerged with such intensity once again.
Thousands of people are missing, and within last three years more than 700 dead bodies have been
dumped here, of those who were abducted by the government. Even the Supreme Court itself
acknowledges that the intelligence agencies and FC are involved in it. I think in Balochistan there are
very few families left whose friends, relatives or someone they knew are not either disappeared or
killed. So, I think Baloch are not ready to talk about anything short of independence.
GAK: Mir Sahib, as you said all Baloch leaders wanted an independence Balochistan from the
beginning. But if we go into history, in 1960s Khair Bakhsh was part of parliament, in 70s Sardar Attaullah Mengal became the Chief Minister, Ghaus Bakhsh Bizanjo was Governor. So, in this perspective
could you provide us with some facts?
MMAT: Sir, actually in that period of time consciousness and awakening in Baloch nation was not at
this level. With todays tools, such as social media, (mass) media and technology, the way it is used
to deliver your views to the people and the way people respond to them were not present at that time.
You may understand that when Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto sent in the army in Balochistan, in Marri area, the
Marri area and Sibbi are next to each other, they border. And the situation was as such that the war
that was being waged in Marri areas, its news couldnt reach Sibbi. Today, anything happens
anywhere right now, it reaches across the world instantly. Then the tools, that which favored them,
were very limited.
So unwillingly, under this presumption that if nothing more, than in this way some relief may be given
to the Baloch, they were also in the parliament and Atta-ullah came into power but you saw they were

not tolerated for more than nine or ten months. They were not tolerated more than that. And they
dismissed them with dozens of allegations against them including the Iraqi-Arms-Find. The Iraqi man
himself was a SAWAK agent who brought (the weapons) in here. And when the arms reached in
Karachi first, they (the Government) knew about it. Rafi Raza was a minister then and a very close
confidante of Bhutto, he told us about it. When they reached Karachi, they knew about it and they
facilitated the transport to the Iraqi consulate in Islamabad. And they went in there with a media show
and then accused the nationalists for it.
So, different times need different forms of struggle. And it was a continuation. Khair Bakhsh has been
uncompromising, on his stand, he has been uncompromising. He always stood by that. Rest of all
others wavered and reverted to this and that. I think Khair Bakhsh Khan remained and still is on that
same (stance).
GAK: Again the question will be about the same that many Baloch nationalists were in confrontation
with the Pakistani federation in 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, and then the present one. So, in your opinion this
conflict is a continuation or they had different objectives?
MMAT: I think it is a continuation of the same. Suppose if Agha Abdul Karim hadnt fought then the
war of Nauroz Khan wouldnt have happened. If Nauroz Khan hadnt fought then Sher Mohammad
Khan perhaps wouldnt have fought. And if Sher Mohammad hadnt fought, 1973s conflict wouldnt
have occurred. But one thing is clear that each of the struggles had been on a qualitatively higher
stage. It has raised itself and become more important and even more widespread. I mean in 1948
when Agha Abdul Karim rose up, they were only two to three hundred people. When Nauroz Khan
fought, they were few thousands. Then Sher Mohammad Khan, Atta-ullah Khan and Ali Mohammad
Mengal fought, it was much more than that. And when the 1973 insurgency took place, it was again
more intense, more widespread, to too many areas, including Makran, Mengal areas, Marri areas and
Bolan i.e. it was more widespread.
And now the situation is as such that even in Quetta no one recites their anthem in schools.
GAK: Mir Sahib, human beings live together, federations and countries are formed and broken up,
problems arise, and every problem has a solution. So, in your view, is there any solution for the
Baloch problem? Can it be solved within the Pakistani federation or without it?
MMAT: I can answer this from my side only. Whereas, I have been a part of Baloch movement and
still am. Recently there was Karachi Literary Festival where Mohammad Hanif Sahibs book was
launched, in it I said in my introduction that todays situation is such that I should have been in the
mountains, but being aged I am not there and I quoted Chairman Mao that: War is continuation of
politics by other means.So, in my view writing is continuation of war by other means. I still continue
fighting. I think the losses that Baloch had suffered, the excessive victimization of Baloch for the last
65 years, those who side with Pakistan, people like Raisani, Dr. Malik or Dr. Hai, you know them all,
those who do the federation politics, they only want that they should get the crumbs. I mean anything
that falls from federations table they should have it. But I think rest of the Baloch cant even imagine
that Balochistan would remain in the federation.
As you know I live in Sindh. The people of Marri tribe whom I taught in Afghanistan, I was related to
them, I was part of them and they were part of me, 16 of them were abducted and their dead bodies
dumped. What would I think about Pakistan? The connection I had with them that they were just my
students, how about the people who are suffering from atrocities. It is not so that there has been a
ceasefire. There has never been a ceasefire.
Yesterday on Twitter Hamid Mir tweeted on Khuzdar that the three young boys he interviewed were
disappeared. And this is happening every day that people are disappeared. Ten twelve people that I
personally know are still missing. There was a man named Naari Keehar, he is missing. My student
Dr. Akbar Marri, whose salaries etc. were given to his family on the order of Supreme Court, he is also
missing. There is someone in Hub I know, a 17 years old boy whose ID card (NIC) is not issued yet,
went to the court for his brothers hearing. His brother was disappeared first then they showed him in

jail with allegations. He went for his brothers hearing, while returning from the court; he was abducted
near Saakuran Police Station in Hub. His whereabouts are still unknown. It happened last year.
So, under such circumstances what would you expect of people that they will agree to remain with
Pakistan? I think it is expecting too much of them. That despite under such circumstances and all the
atrocities, you would expect of people that they would still remain with Pakistan? As Mohammad Hanif
said in his interview that, it is like you pull peoples nails off in the night and expect them to chant
slogans of Long Live Pakistan in the morning. This can never happen.
GAK: Mir Sahib, let us go back into history again. We saw that from 1977 up to 2000, it is a period
when this discontinued to some extent but doesnt happen at all. After 1977 during the Zia regime a
political process begins till the coming of Musharraf. Was this calm an accommodation to join the
federation or something else?
MMAT: In my opinion, no. People say so that it was an accommodation but you think that we 13 to 14
thousand Baloch who stayed back in Afghanistan, why they stayed back? Khair Bakhsh Khan, Sher
Mohammad Khan, Mir Hazar Khan Ramkani, and lesser workers like us, they stayed in Afghanistan
up till 1991 and 1992 as long as Najeebs government was not ousted. Were they supporting the
federation? I think they werent. You may say that it was for conserving of forces. If they had
completely compromised with federation. because in 1977 when amnesty was announced by Zia,
those who wanted to compromise, those who wanted to remain with the federation, for example:
Mehrullah Mengal, Aslam Gichki, Lal Bakhsh Rind, and Bizanjos people, who were there, they all
came back.
Khair Bakhsh Khan hadnt come to Afghanistan yet, but Mir Hazar Khan was there, and we the
political people who were there, they decided that we dont accept this amnesty because we will
achieve nothing by this amnesty. And nothing was achieved. Yes, those who came back may have
got some jobs, some contracts. There was a calm but to say that all had gone to sleep. People hadnt
gone to sleep. Because, the presence of that many Baloch staying back in Afghanistan, and ignoring
and rejecting their amnesty is a solid argument that this thing was not finished. Although people say it
was finished.
GAK: Then sir, as you mentioned about the parliamentarians, National Party, BNP-Awami and BNPMengal, and those forces which were in Afghanistan, some of them are still in the mountains, if we
see it in this perspective, we dont see any difference in Baloch nationalism, whether it is in two forms
or something different?
MMAT: Baloch nationalism is definitely different because there are two behaviors. There are types of
nationalists who use the name of Baloch and acquire government and contracts from the federation
and seek benefits for themselves. This is one form of nationalism, the corrupt form of nationalism,
exploiting the name of nationalism. They all talk. Dr. Malik also talks about people, so does Dr. Hai
and Akhtar Mengal. But they have very limited aim as such in which people have no role. They have
their role but not peoples. They are not with the federation for the welfare of people but for the well
being of themselves.
On the other side are people like Dr. Allah Nazar, Brahmdaghs people or Khair Bakhshs people.
Whether you call them Khair Bakhshs people, by Khair Bakhsh Khan I mean his follower who think
this is the right path. That is the brand of nationalism which really matters for Balochistan today.
You can guess as I say to the people that if Agha Karim hadnt taken up arms in 1948 then Nauroz
Khan wouldve not picked up arm. I mean the series of taking up arms. So, you cant imagine what
kind of aggression Balochistan would have faced. I mean the demographic changes. This is the fear
that prevents people going in there. Otherwise, all of the Biharis, the extra population of Punjab, and
the Urdu speaking people here, would have occupied Balochistan. This was only the fear that they will
not tolerate us there. Otherwise, it would have caused demographic changes at a grand scale. And
how many Baloch are there? Only in Balochistan the population of Baloch is five million. Ten, twelve
million people would have gone there. Demographically they would have been finished. As they are
making such attempts in Gwadar or they have created an industrial area in Hub.

So, definitely there are two brands of nationalism. One is the opportunist nationalism that remains
with federation for its own benefits. And the other which is the true form of nationalism. You may say
this nationalism is like: those who want be well-fed slaves and the others who want to remain hungry
but free. Definitely there are two trends of nationalism in Balochistan today.
GAK: Mir Sahib, it has been said that Pakistani state is in complete denial and it is of the opinion that
few Baloch sardars or tribal chiefs are responsible for the Baloch problem otherwise there is no
Baloch problem. It has been created by Baloch sardars.
MMAT: That is the official narrative. I think at present 99% of sardars in Balochistan are with the
government. For example Raisani, Shahwani and rest of all sardars are with the federation. Now, why
there hasnt been any development in their areas? They mostly blame three sardars. Akbar joined at
the end. Akbar allowed the Sui gas extraction and everything else.
They blame Atta-ullah, Khair Bakhsh and Akbar that these three sardars dont submit. Akbar used to
submit. He became the governor as well in 1973. But Atta-ullah is also not among the miscreant
sardars anymore. So, what is the reason there havent been any progress? There are no sardars in
Makran, there hasnt been any kind of progress there. Leave that too aside. The poverty in Rahim Yar
Khan or the poverty in Karachis slum areas or poverty in Hyderabad and in rural areas of Sindh, are
Baloch sardars responsible for all that too? They make lame excuses. I mean faulty carpenter always
blames his tools. When they cant find any excuse to hide their follies, incompetence and corruption,
they blame Baloch sardars. Should the Baloch sardars really be held responsible for the poverty in
Sindh and Karachi too?
And even those sardars who are with the government, their situation is pathetic; Nawab Nausherwani
of Kharan has filed a writ in Balochistan High Court that the Pakistani government has allowed Sheikh
of Dubai Zaid Bin Nahyan to hunt Houbara bustards in Washuk and Kharan. Whenever they come for
the hunt, their personnel set up posts, the farmers there cant go to their farms, cant use their water
streams. They are doing this to those sardars who in 1948, the Nawab of Kharan and Makran, were
among the first to sign the Instrument of Accession with Pakistan. It was then on that basis that
Jinnah forced Ahmad Yar Khan to sign. So, they are doing this to those who have served them. They
are forced to file a writ in Balochistan High Court that these Arabs come here; they dont allow us live
here. They do whatever they want and we are helpless. Is this also the fault of sardars?
If you look at the map, Pakistan has issued 30 permits to Arab rulers, in how vast areas of
Balochistan they hunt. Should this also be added to the Baloch sardars sins? The easiest way is to
shift the blame. Actually this official narrative has been very effective to the extent that people really
believe that all that is wrong in Balochistan is due to Baloch sardars. This is the official narrative. They
have printed all the text books, they have taught the children whatever theyve learnt for the last
65 years. They had the radio, they had the television, they had everything and still they have it all.
The alternate view is rarely presented. How many people read me? I, who makes hue and cry, how
many, would read me? 2000, 4000, 5000, 10000. I think I am exaggerating, this is too much.
Because, it goes on internet, how many people would read it there and how much it is spread. But
their narrative is consistently going on that this is sardars fault. Sardars have created these problems
and we are clean and innocent.
GAK: Sir, if we look at the developed areas in the rest of Pakistan, if Balochistan territorially would
have been developed with roads, hospitals, colleges etc. so then Baloch would have been still there
where they are today or something would have been changed? If they would have implemented the
1940 Resolution in which it was said that except for four things with the center rest will be given to the
units.
MMAT: Actually it is a hypothetical question, If it had been so? In fact they never wanted to do it. I
mean they already never had the intention to do so. If they had intended so they would have done it.
They would have done something. If you look at the Human Development Index, the most backwards
districts in Pakistan are in Balochistan. Leave Quetta aside, because, it is the garrison city. As they
have created the Benazir Income Support Scheme to give money, according to their survey, and they

are not unbiased, they are biased; even they say that 66% families should be given this support. I am
of the opinion that they are underestimating it.
You see, in the last 65 years, there hasnt been war in all the areas. For example, in Makran there
wasnt any war before this. Those who are fighting in Turbat or Mand and rest of the areas, it wasnt
there then. What they have done there? They never wanted to do it. They had planned to build
universities etc. As Hamid Mir was presenting in his program. They have censored it. The Hamid Mir
program which ran day before yesterday, here at least in Hyderabad, the cable was giving NO
SIGNAL. During the advertisement the Geo TV Channel was fine but whenever they started talking
there was NO SIGNAL. The boys said that fear prevails around here. Teacher said generators dont
work, we dont have electricity. This is the situation of the area where Raisanis live.
GAK: So, Mir Sahib, on one hand there is Baloch nationalism and on the other Pakistani federation,
there is mistrust, (MMAT: Definitely, there is an unbridgeable gap of mistrust.) so, how do you see the
future of Baloch nationalism and future of Pakistan? Let me put the question in a different way:
federation is strong, it has an army and everything, and the Baloch are divided, so under these
circumstances how do you the see the future of Baloch nationalism and Pakistani federation?
MMAT: Sir, now the element of religion in the federation has been introduced. And the religious
extremism that is being manifested, in any way, it cannot be conducive to strengthen it. Because of
the many power centers that they themselves have created; there are too many power centers. For
example, Taliban, Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, MQM (Mohajir/Muttahida Qaomi Movement) or rest of all that
are there, all these power centers that they have created, if in any region, home or country, calling this
a country is unfair because a country has certain qualifications, but in case if we could call it a country
or a state, with the existence of so many power centers, which has so many centrifugal forces to
break it apart then I think it would be very difficult for it to survive.
And Baloch nationalism is also a part of it. I mean their struggle here. And to Baloch nationalism you
may say that it is a developing force. Many people are joining in, taking part. As you have seen that
since 2005 it hasnt declined but grown.
th

For example, the rally that Baloch National Front has organized in Karachi on 10 February, in which I
think they carried a 15 to 20 meters long flag of Balochistan and with placards with simple slogans
that, We Want Freedom. And the most important thing is that there was a huge participation of
Baloch women in that rally. You may say that the nature of Baloch nationalism has changed that
people in Karachi, regardless of the consequences they may face, talk about freedom, organize
freedom rally, and carry such a huge flag with them. I think Baloch nationalism is gradually growing. If
nothing else then it is going to be a long war of attrition, as they say.
There is another element that Balochistan is now isnt confined to this region alone. Now the
foreign countries also understand it. They observe it. They talk about it. I dont give much importance
to Rohrabachers (US senator) speeches but anyhow these are part of it. Or the UNPOs
(Unrepresented Nations and People Organization) conference convened in London recently. So
these all are part of it and signs of Baloch national movements growth.
GAK: Mir Sahib, you used a word, I am not talking about the word but generally, as the Kashmiris
also say, We Want Freedom, Free Balochistan, what freedom? Control over resources? Control
over the coast? Controlling their own affairs while living on their own land? Or by Freedom they
mean a completely sovereign country?
MMAT: I think now they want an independent sovereign country.
GAK: So, Mir Sahib, in this perspective, on one side there is Iran, Sistan-wa-Balochistans area, on
one side Afghanistans Hilmand Namroz area, and then Baloch themselves, as you said you are living
here for the last three hundred years, there are too many other Baloch in Sindh, also in Punjab, in
Frontier (NWFP) too, so Baloch would be more divided if an independent Balochistan is formed. Then
two states are they (Iran and Afghanistan), third would be this one, if Balochistan becomes

independent, it would be a hostile country, so how the Baloch state will survive among all these? How
do you see its future?
MMAT: In fact this question was also raised by Atta-ullah Mengal. You may remember? (GAK: Yes, I
do.) He said that, They talk about independence of Balochistan, if it becomes independent then
whether they will be able to maintain it or not. In my erroneous opinion that, we will cross the
bridge when we come to the bridge. When we reach the bridge then we will think about crossing it.
We havent reached the bridge yet we are creating mental blocks already. Creating obstacles that this
might happen or that might happen.
You may imagine that Dubai, in 1971 when Britain let it go out of its protectorate, what do you think
Dubai looked like? In Dubai they used Indian currency. And there were sand dunes and very few
small buildings around. Today, Dubai is an international city and the Emirates play a crucial role in
world economy. Iran didnt want all this to be. It said that these areas are mine. You may not be old
enough but Iran didnt agree on it and insisted that these are my parts. Iran also felt threatened.
And I think Baloch are marching towards the same. If Balochistan becomes independent then dont
you think that, with such vast resources, people of Balochistan wont be able to maintain themselves?
I think they will and will progress, and they will protect themselves. I dont deny the fact that the
Raisanis and many other such people who oppose it. For example, Shafiq Mengal or Naseer Mengal
people who have formed death squads against them. But in my view there are so many Baloch who
are sitting on the fence, and are observing and they will come to this side instead of going to their
side.
GAK: Mir Sahib, this thing began in 1948, and people say that 18 th Amendment (of Pakistani
constitution) is also a step, to soothe the Baloch and remove their grievances. So, do you think
Baloch may consider that the 18th amendment is a remedy to their grievances or not?
MMAT: It is not only the 18th Amendment; there is also the NFC (National Finance Commission)
Award. The one that Gilani (Pakistani premier) signed with such a grandeur on a ship in Gwadar. As I
said earlier that Gwadar port was handed over to China, so does this satisfy the Baloch that they have
got it or it is still with those who previously had it? The situation remains the same. These are all just
fancy talks.
The 18th Amendment or Aghaz-e-Huqooq-e-Balochistan Package, or NFC Award, or Zardaris
apology to the Baloch; so, these are all just fancy talks, nothing more than that. You know the ground
reality as you have been to Quetta; you know what the situation is in Quetta. You understand it. You
have seen it with your own eyes as I have only passed through Quetta once or twice but havent
stayed there. So, the situation in Quetta is like that there is terror and fear. Or as the students in
Hamid Mirs program said we are afraid and harassed, how could we get any education like this? This
is Raisanis turf Mastung I am talking about.
In Balochistan there are thousands of check posts of FC, Coast Guards, Levies and Army spread all
across Balochistan. It is a siege. They all do talk about 18 th Amendment, NFC Award and Aghaz-eHuqooq but Balochistan is under siege. And the people who are under siege, what would think about
NFC, 18th Amendment, or all that fancy talks by Pakistani rulers or their representatives? All these are
meaningless to them.
GAK: In a different angle, according to research on Balochistan, people say that Baloch nationalism
is a reaction to Pakistans undemocratic behavior and the socio economic injustices to Balochistan.
And some Baloch nationalists say that Pakistan needs Baloch land and resources not the Baloch. So,
what is your take on it?
MMAT: No. I dont think so. Baloch nationalism is not in reaction to it but Baloch was independent and
Baloch considered itself independent. All those treaties, Standstill Agreement etc, that wasnt a
reaction because, it was before the creation of Pakistan. They considered themselves an independent
state and country. So, it is not as a reaction to it. Todays nationalism is the continuation of that
nationalism. It is Naseer Khan Nooris nationalism or Dost Mohammads (last ruler of Western/Iranian
Balochistan). Or Baloch sardars own. For example, the Marri sardar considered the Beglar Baigi, the

Khan of Kalat, as their suzerain but he was the ruler of his area. Bugtis were rulers in their area. So,
this is the continuation of that nationalism. But that nationalism is now crystallized from Marri, Bugti,
Bangulzai and others to Baloch nationalism. It has become Baloch nationalism from tribalism.
The Marris opposed the British. They fought four to five battles with them. The last battle was in 1917.
They fought them even before 1843. The battles of Saartaaf and Nafusk. Bugtis fought, Brahvi tribes
also fought. In my opinion it is not a reaction to Pakistani oppression. Definitely, that too has come
into play after Pakistan came into being but Baloch nationalism is too old.
And what was the other question?
GAK: Baloch nationalist say that Pakistan needs Baloch land and resources not the Baloch.
MMAT: Yes. No one can deny this. Look at it this way; let me take you back to 1971. Take
Bengals example for instance. Those who cry about Bengal till today, have you ever heard any
Pakistani intellectual saying that hundreds of thousands of people were violated, hundreds of
thousands of people were killed, millions of peoples lives were disrupted. They dont talk about it.
They just say, We lost Bangladesh.They see it as a real estate. They never saw Bangladeshis as
human beings or as Bengali nation; they just see it as a piece of land to this day. They saw it so and
still they see it like that.
This is how they see it here. If it wasnt so. The principle that the Britain went in and occupied
Australia which is called terra nullius meaning uninhibited land. I mean the British said that this is an
uninhibited territory; this principle or terra nullius doctrine ignores people. That people mean nothing,
we just need the land. If it wasnt so, then how could they permit Arab rulers to come to Washuk and
Kharan and set up camps like that and dont allow people even to walk around?
The most important thing is that all the resources that they have developed, for example Gwadar, for
whom theyve done all that? Whose welfare theyve strived for? Theyve done all that for
themselves. Or the big naval base theyve built in Ormara? Or the new naval base they are building in
Khor Kalmat near Khor Miyani? Imagine why Baloch nationalists would set naval boats on fire in 2007
or 08 in Gwadar. Because, the navy people had broken the boats of Baloch because they have set
timing wherever the navy is present, they have set timing that from this time to that time the fishermen
can fish and rest of the time it is restricted. Are they present there to secure Baloch rights or to serve
their own interests?
When the gas from Sui reached Quetta? (GAK: In the 80s I think.) Someone congratulated me then
that gas has reached Quetta. I said to him that we are not demanding the right to burn it but we say
that it is ours and it must be used as we wish.
The reason they love Balochistan is: first it is a vast area to maintain their colonialism, with its
resources they want to facilitate their own people and it is nothing more than that. There is no
contradiction that the examples I just gave: When gas reached Quetta, how the naval bases have
restricted people there, or even today in 2013 the rulers of Dubai come in Washuk and Kharan do all
that.
The other important thing is that they built Mirani Dam because they were leasing the land to the
Saudis. You may not remember that two years ago Aslam Bhootani filed a petition in Balochistan High
Court that the federation should be stopped from selling 70,000 hectares of land to Arab Sheikhs in
Lasbela. Which airbase it was that the UAE lent to the Americans for drone operations? (GAK:
Shamsi Airbase or something.) Not the Jacobabads, it was in Kharan Balochistan near (the Afghan
border). It was built for their hunting activities. So, I think they need the land they have got nothing to
do with the people.
GAK: So, Mir Sahib, when we see the conflicts around the world, such as Quebec, Catalonia,
(MMAT: Basques, Corsicas.) In todays world, like they are thinking to create a federal form of
government for Afghanistan. We hear the same about Iraq. So, what do you think how the Baloch
issue could be absorbed in a federation? Just like the European Union where many countries are
getting together again. They are nations and countries but getting together. So, what do think how
Baloch would like to be a part of the federation?

MMAT: Sir, actually, as they say in Urdu that you cant clap with one hand. It needs a great
understanding and sagacity from both sides. You know till 1945 France and Germany were at each
others throats. France was occupied by Germany or the hostilities between Germany and Britain
during World War I, World War II or before that the hostilities between them over the African colonies.
How all these thing ended? Only when both sides realized that our differences will not take us
anywhere. If we want to live and progress then we need to solve it mutually. Now France doesnt say
that I am the ruler here or the Germany says I am the ruler, they are brothers now. It was only
possible when they realized that they are brothers.
And here, General Kayani made a statement sometimes ago, and I wrote an article about it, that there
are some Baloch who havent seen a rupees ten note. I said what world you live in mister? You take a
patronizing attitude that they are animals and we are going to make them humans. When will they
become humans? When we will show them rupees ten note then they will become humans. All their
attitude is arrogance; arrogance based on power. I mean they are proud of their power. We have the
army, we are brave, and we are the martial races; as the British made them martial races.
Since the day one they have never wanted to change their attitude. If they had wanted it to be they
would have tolerated independence of Balochistan! Khan Kalat had a very special friendship with
Jinnah. Perhaps very few people supported Jinnah as much as Khan Kalat did. And Jinnah was his
lawyer. Had they wanted to create a federation then, they could have done it. To this date they dont
want to.
GAK: Sir, if we look at the international politics or the geo-strategic location of Balochistan, as it is
said that Kalats annexation was by force, if we look at it in this perspective the international powers
then, that were leaving, perhaps they too didnt want Balochistan to be independent and be under
Russian influence, their access to warm waters. What is your take on this?
MMAT: I think there is a huge difference between the political consciousness of 1947 and todays
political consciousness. It has gone a long way. The world powers of that time were not so much
interested in it. It is my opinion. In stark contrast of that today they are interested in Balochistan much
more than they were interested then.
And there is another aspect to that interest today. They are observing that if fundamentalism prevails
in Balochistan too, the way in the rest of Pakistan fundamentalism is on the rise. And if it prevails in
Balochistan too then for them and everyone else, it could prove to be a big threat to the world peace
and the regional peace. Therefore, the Baloch nationalist force is a secular force. Its ideology is based
upon secular principles. And I think they prefer secularism. If it wasnt so then the death squads which
are formed by Shafiq Mengal and Siraj Raisani, these death squads are formed on the basis of Islam.
The UNPO convened the Baloch conference in London and the Tanzeem-e-Nafaz-e-Amn
Balochistans (TNAB)1 spokesperson Ghazi Baloch issued a threat in the press that we will kill and
consign to hell whosoever participated in it.
So, I think the world today sees Balochistan with a different angle. Especially with regards to
fundamentalism in Pakistan and this region, it has a huge relevance today. I have written in my
articles that todays world powers do not fear that the nuclear arms will fall into the wrong hands,
because they know that they are already in the wrong hands. Because, all the activities of
fundamentalism here, it is not separate from the Pakistani state and the Pakistani army. At least they

Add: Indeed, a stifling blackout of news and of all dissenting discourse is enforced though a reign of terror,
both directly by Pakistans secret agencies, as well as by their proxies. Among the latter, the euphemistically
named Tehreek-e-Nafaz-e-Aman Balochistan (TNAB, Movement for the Restoration of Peace, Balochistan)
has gained recent notoriety. TNAB has openly claimed the killing of several Baloch activists, and has also
threatened to execute others on their hit list, including at least three presently in their custody. Till date, no
action has been taken against the TNAB. The group is suspected to be the armed wing of the Muttahida Mahaz
Balochistan (United Front, Balochistan), headed by Siraj Raisani, brother of the present Chief Minister of
Balochistan, Aslam Raisani. Pak agencies now on "kill and eliminate" mission in Balochistan, by Ajai
Sahni Feb 7, 2012 11:22 IST http://www.firstpost.com/blogs/pak-agencies-now-on-kill-and-eliminatemission-in-balochistan-205602.html

all understand that. These were their strategic assets which they used in Kashmir, in Afghanistan, and
still being used in Afghanistan.
Anyway, world look at Balochistan issue in an entirely different way then they saw it in 1947. I think
the attitude of world powers then, they were indifferent. In 1947 and 1948 world powers were
indifferent. They were not involved in their decision that it would become under Russian influence. It
was closer to them as on one side there was Pakistan and on the other Iran, and on another side
there was the sea. It was a monarchy of Khan Kalat. Here the Khan was with a status of a king. How
could they be threatened by him that he would radically change and go on Russian side? So, they
were indifferent then but they are not indifferent today.
GAK: Sir, at the end if there is anything that you would like to add? If there is anything that is left
behind?
MMAT: Sir, I think in your research you should emphasize on the importance, as I have tried my best
to elaborate frankly, of Baloch view to be presented in a proper manner. So the people know that
what Baloch want; because the Baloch narrative has never been properly represented. The irony is
that in the local press friends do write about it but rarely does it reach the international press.
And I write with the intention the Baloch point of view is presented to the people so they would
understand it. At least they should know that what the problem is. So, it is your duty too that you
should try to present it in this way. And well keep in touch in future as well.
GAK: Insha-Allah. Thank you very much.
MMAT: May Allah keep you safe and sound.

http://nakedpunch.com/articles/242

-With Very Best Regards

Mir Mohammad Ali Talpur
I know that I am prejudiced on this matter, but I would be ashamed of myself if I were not.
Mark Twain
A cynical, mercenary, demagogic press will produce in time a people as base as itself." - Joseph
Pulitzer
"Organized religion is like organized crime, it preys on people's weaknesses, generates huge profits
for its operators and is almost impossible to eradicate" Mike Hermann