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net/forums/)
OptionOne(http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/optionone/)
GimmePower!!(http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/optionone/gimmepower672.html)

Willallison

0616200208:21PM

GimmePower!!

Mostthreadsmakeatleastonereferencetoit,soperhapsitistimeoncemoretoenterthefraywith
everyones(...well,mineanyway)petsubjectpoweringoptions:
DieselInboard
Dieselsterndrivewithorwithoutjackshaft
PetrolInboard
PetrolSterndrivewithorwithoutjackshaft
Outboard
Oh,andofcourseTrouty'sNeutronDrive......
What'sittobe?
MeI'malloutboard,forreasonsstatedpreviously.Thereisoftenconcernaboutauxhillarysystemson
anoutboardpoweredcruisingboat.Seehttp://www.sundownmarine.com.au/seaquest.htm
Asanexample,theyuseanimmersionstylewaterheaterfortheirhotwatersupply.Evenmidrange
outboardspumpoutatleast40ampsforpoweringsuchthings.....
Thismayseemlikecoveringoldground,butmaybe....justmaybe,wemightbeabletogettothepoint
ofmakingadecisiononthisoneviaapollsometimesoon......

duluthboats

0616200209:38PM

Ahyes,howshespoweredwillmakeabigdifferenceinthedesign.Iguessweshouldtakecareofthat
littlestickingpoint.Workingonmyretirementboathasmademelookatthisfrommanyangles.Fora
longtimeIwassetoninboardpower.Iworkedonthehullandinterior.WhenIhadeverythingtheway
IwanteditIstartedondetailsfortheengine.Addingallthataninboardengineneeds(ventilation,
coolingwater,combustionair,exhaust,propshaft)alwaysseemedtoruinmylayout.Ididntwantto
maketheboatlargerormakeitdifficulttomaintainthesesystems.Iranoutofcompromises,soI
switchedtooutboardpower.MyboatisnotO1butcloseenough,somyreasoningwouldbethesame.
(flawedasitis:D)WorkingthisoutonO1willhelpmealso.
Onebigadvantageishoweasyitwillbetorepower.Abigdisadvantagewillbefuel,forsomepartsof
theworld.
Themembercountisnowover400.A100orsoopinionsonthissubjectwouldbenice.
Gary

Portager

0617200202:17AM

Researchingthechoices

BeforeImakeadecisionIwouldliketoknowwhatiscommonlyusedinaboatsofthisclassandwhy.I
wouldalsowantacostofownershipcomparisonfortheengineoptions.
Todeterminewhatboatsofthisclassuse,IwenttotheNMMA(NationalMarineManufacturers
Association)andlookedattheirstatisticalfactandfigures.Theestimatesofoutboardsalesbyyear(

http://www.nmma.org/facts/boatingsta.../boatsales.asp)showsthatfrom1997to2001thesalesof
ExpressCruisersthatwereequippedwithoutboardsvariedfrom0.04%to0.2%.Theestimatessalesof
sterndriveExpressCruisers(http://www.nmma.org/facts/boatingsta...llmaterial.asp)variedfrom
11.5%to14.2%overthesameperiod.FromtheAnnualRetailUnitSalesEstimates(
http://www.nmma.org/facts/boatingsta.../unitsales.asp)itappearsthattheremaining85%to88%must
beinboardsorJetdrive.
Anotherinterestingreferenceishttp://resolutionhost.com/BoatsAndPl...o/BuyABoat.htm.Lookatthe
sectiontitled,"Power:Sterndrives,outboards.Inboardsorjetsgasordiesel?"
Also,gotothebuyersguideathttp://resolutionhost.com/BoatsAndPl...uide/_Main.htmandseehow
many"ExpressCruisers"haveoutboards.
Cheers
MikeSchooley

Willallison

0617200202:53AM

I'mnotatallsurprisedthatthebulkofsocalledexpresscruisersarefittedwitheitherinboardor
sterndriveengine(s).However,asalways,thedevilisinthedetailforinstance,what%ofthoseare
trailerable?Andhowbigisanexpresscruiser?
Andyoualsohavetorememberthatoutboarddesignhascomeoninleapsandboundsinthelastyear
ortwo,soitwillbesometimebeforethefigurescatchupwithtechnology.Inthefirstyearswhen
fibreglasswasfirstintroducedtotheboatingworld,Iimaginethatasimilarsurveywouldhaveshown
that>95%ofcruisersweremadeoftimber.....
Asfarasrunningcostsgo,IhavesomeinterestingfiguresregardingfuelconsumptionathomeI'llpost
themtomorrow.

tom28571

0617200210:08AM

UnlessIdecidetodoaclassicrunabout,IwillbeusingoutboardsonanyboatIbuild.
Asimilarsurveyonaestheticswouldshowthatatleast80%ofthesameExpressCruisersarebuttugly
butthatdoesnotmeanthatweshouldfollowtheirlead.

duluthboats

0617200211:02AM

:D:D:D

Portager

0617200212:45PM

ButWhy?

Will
TheYachtWorlddatashowsthebulkoftheExpressCruisersareinthe26'to34'lengthrangewiththree
peaksoccurringat27'28',30'and33'.MostontheExpressCruisersbelow30'thatIhavelookedatso
fararetrailerable.Ihavenotfoundoneover30'thatistrailerable.
Ithinktherelevantquestioniswhydo"ExpressCruisers"favorinboardsand/orsterndrives.Itoolike
toplotmyowncourse,butthatdoesn'tmeanIamgoingtoleavethecrowedchannelandchargeinto
theshoalsjusttobedifferent.WhenIdecidetodepartfromtheprovenpath,Idoubleandtriplecheck
myreasoning.Sofarwehavedeterminedthatthebeatenpathforthisclassisnotoutboards!Againthe
relevantquestionisWHY!
YoumentionedthatOutboardshavemaderecentimprovementsandthisMAYexplainit,butitcouldalso
beduetootherreasons.Theremayalsobealagtimefortheconsumertolearnthatwhathe/sheknew
aboutboatslastyearisnolongertrue.Biasesandprejudicestakealongtimetodie.

Oneintrinsicproblemwithoutboardsistheytendtoconcentratealotofmassatthestern.Thiscanbe
balancedbypushingmoreinertmassforward,butplacingmassatextremedistancesfromthecenterof
gravityincreasesthepitchmomentofinertiabythesquareofthedistance,thisinternincreasesthe
tendencytoporpoiseinheavyseasandproducehigherbendingloadsinthehull.Thiseffectis
compoundedasthepowerlevelsincrease(i.e.theGTiversionwillbeworse).Designershavetriedto
counterthisproblembysubmergingtheoutboardintohullinawellarea,butthisimpactstheusable
areaandarrangementoftheboat.
Tom
Pleasehumorthoseofus(ormeifIamtheonlyone)whodonotyetknowallthereistoknowabout
boats.I'mstilllearning,soItrytokeepandopenmindandIaskstupidquestions.
Cheers
MikeSchooley

tom28571

0617200204:31PM

Mike,
Isuspectthatyouknowasmuchormorethanmeaboutboats.I'mjustanamateurthathasbeen
aroundlongenoughtodevelopprejudices.IdothinkthatIcanlearnwhenproperforceisapplied
though(abiggerhammerperhaps).Ihavebuiltanumberofsmallboatsandspentabitofstudytrying
tolearnaboutthefactorsthataffectboatperformancedesign.

Portager

0617200206:48PM

WaterHeatres

Will
Youmentionedrunninganelectricwaterheaterofftheoutboardmotors40ampalternators.
Assumingyouhavetwinoutboardswith40amp12.5voltalternatorsthatwouldbe500wattseachor
1,000watts.Ilookedupsomeoutboardmotorsandfoundthattheir40ampalternatorsprovide40amps
@>3,000rpm.Below3,000itfallsofftonearlyzeroatidlespeed(700rpm).Inadditionalternator
capacityisgenerallyratedatcoldoperatingconditions.Oncethealternatorheatsupoutputistypically
10%to20%lower.
IwenttoWestMarine'splumingsectionhttp://www.westmarine.com/webapp/com...rch.d2w/reportand
foundseveralwaterheateroptions.The"tankless"waterheaterlookedlikethelightestweightandmost
compactoptionsoIlookedatthesmallestEEMAXElectricInstantaneousWaterHeaters,the20amp
modelhttp://www.eemaxinc.com/marspec.htm.Thisunitrunson120VACandrequires20ampsor2.5
kW.
Ilookedatstoragetankwaterheaters.The6GallonSuperStorStainlessWaterHeater
http://www.htproducts.com/products/e...ture/lp02.pdfdraws19ampsat120VACandtheRaritan1700
series6gallonrequires15ampsat120VDC.TheSeawardProductsStainlessWaterHeaters6gallon
modelcomesineither30ampor50ampversions.Icouldnotfindanyelectricwaterheatersthatcould
bedrivenbystockoutboardalternators.Maybethealternatorscouldbeupgradedtohigheroutput?
Ifnot,toruntheseelectricwaterheaters,withoutshorepower,wouldrequireageneratororaninverter
toconvert12VDCto120VACandabatterybanktomeetthedemand.Thecostandweightofeither
optionwouldneedtobefiguredintotheoutboardversusinboardenginetrade.
Isearchedfor12VDCwaterheaterswithoutsuccess.Ialsosearchedforpropanewaterheaters,but
theyallseamtohavebeenremovedfromthemarinemarketduetoCO2poisoningproblems.
Cheers
MikeSchooley

Jeff

0617200207:37PM

Quote:

Itooliketoplotmyowncourse,butthatdoesn'tmeanIamgoingtoleavethecrowedchannel
andchargeintotheshoalsjusttobedifferent.WhenIdecidetodepartfromtheprovenpath,I
doubleandtriplecheckmyreasoning.

Firstthanksfordiggingupsomenumbersforustolookat.Astheothershavesaidthough,thenumbers
onlytellasmallpartofthestorywithoutthewhy.Seeingthatwearestrayingfromthepack,allwe
candoistorecheckourlogicandmakesureeverythingissound.Andmaybeweshouldlookatthe
numberstheotherwayiftherearentalotof(orany)productionexpresscruisersonthemarketdoing
exactlywhatwerethinkingof(outboards,etc.)thatmightmeanthereistheperfectmarketnichefor
thisdesign.

Jeff

0617200207:55PM

Atthesametime,asyousaid,maybethemarketingofanoutboardexpresscruiseralsocomesdownto
thelongtimeittakesforpreferencesandprejudicestochangeandthekindofcollectivedecision
makingwhichoccursasstylescomeandgo.Afewpeoplegetminivanstheneveryonestartswantinga
minivan.NextpeoplestartgettingSUVs,andnoweveryonehastohaveanSUV.Oraroundheredual
wheelpickupshavebecomethefadthisyear,butIvenoticedthatinalmosteverycasethepeoplewho
canaffordthedualiesdontreallyhaveanythingtohaul,sotheextrawheelsarejustforlookswhilethe
buildersandmasonshaulingeverythingaredrivingthesame1980ssinglewheeledpickupsloadeddown
totheiraxlesandgettingstuckinthesandthesameasalways.
WithmylastboatIchoseSternDrivesoverOutboardsbecause:
1.)Ilikedthe"feeling"andsoundoftheenginesoverthehigherpitchoftheoutboards.
2.)IpreferrednotseeingtheoutboardsbackthereIwantedacleanertransom.
IthinkImentionedthatoverthepastfewyearsI'veusedmyboatfordaytrippingovertotheother
Islandsjustafewmilesawaymostly,andhaven'tmadeachunkoftimetotakemanylongertrips.Now
dothemajorityofboatbuyersmaketheirdecisionbasedonnumbersandpracticalconcerns,orwitha
largeinvestmentforaweekendtoy,arethedecisionsbasedmoreonappearance,sound,andfeeling
drivingthemforahourhereandanhourthere?
Sothenastheotherthreaddiscusses,weeitherhavetodecideonthe"typicalbuyer"forthisdesign(we
knowthecapacitythedesignneedstohave,butnottheactualamountofuse)beforewecanproperly
weightthefactors,oralternatelywecandecidetodesignforthebestoveralldesignforan"idealuser"
inthisthread,andthenletthedesignshapethemarketintheotherthread.Willpeoplebuyingaboatfor
thissetofcriteriareallyusetheboatinthisway?Howmanypeoplewithexpresscruisersusethem
enoughtomakefuelefficiencyorhighermaintenancecostsevenafractionoftheoverallexpense?

duluthboats

0617200208:17PM

2siteswithLPmarinewaterheaters.
http://www.astravan.com/specs.html
http://www.gorv.com/online/1037/sho...ils?catid=1077

Willallison

0617200209:48PM

Another12volthotwatersupplyhttp://www.glind.com.au/default.htm
Everyonemakesvalidpointsbothforandagainstoutboardsandallareworthconsidering,whether
informedornot.

IthinkJeffmakesthemosttellingofpointsinthereasonswhyhehaschosensterndrivesinthepast
noiseandappearance.Theformercanbeaddressedtosomeextentbycleverdesignandinsulationetc.
Andthe4strokeo/b'sarebothquieterand"smoother"soundingthantheir2strokecounterparts.The
latterisamatterofpersonalpreferenceandisgoingtovaryfrompersontoperson.
Itisalsotruetosaythattherunningcostsfortheaverageboaterarefaroutweighedbythesimple
expenseofowningtheboatinthe1stplace.Wherethingslikefuelconsumptionbecomeimportant,
howeverarewhenyou'retryingtomaximiserangeorkeepingweighttoaminimum.
Inarecentpublication,Ifoundthesefigures:
Volvo'stestsrevealthata5.7Lsterndriveusesapprox80L/hratWOTand35atcruise3000rpm.
Amercruiser4.3Lv6consumesabout65Land27Lrespectively.
The3LMercuryOptimaxo/bconsumes66L@wotand28L/hratcruise(4000rpm)
The3.5LHonda4stroke225sucks77and35.
A3.3LFicht225drinks74and40.
Fromthisitwouldseemthatthe225hpOptimaxand210hpV6sterndrivesuseaboutthesameamount
offuel.Butthentheoutboardisatleast120kglighter,sotheoutboardcouldbeexpectedtoperform
considerablybetter.ThisalsoaddressesMike'sconcernaboutthemomentofinertiaproblemswith
hangingtheweightsofaraft.Thebulkofasterndrive'sweightislocatedjustforwardofthetransomas
opposedtoanoutboardbeingjustaftofitbutthereissignificantlymoreofitsotheendresultisabout
thesame.

Portager

0618200202:24AM

Outboards

Thanksforthewww.astravan.comlink.IwaslookingfortheBoschunit.IreadthattheWolterhasbeen
discontinuedandIcan'tfindadistributorforthePalomaunit.Youneedtobeverycarefultoproperly
venttheseunitstoavoidCO2poisoning.Youalsoneedtobecarefulofpropaneleaks.
Ipreferthecombinationdieselwaterheaterandspaceheater.Theyarepositivelyventedbetterandthe
fuelislessvolatile.
TheGlandunitisnota12VDCwaterheater.Itisaheatexchangerthatinstallsinthecarsheaterhose.
Idon'tthinksterndrivesaremuchbetterthatoutboards.Themainbenefitisthemassoftheengineis
lowerwhichhelpsinturning,butasyoupointout,thepitchmomentofinertiaisalmostthesame,
weightishigherandcorrosionproblemsareaboutequal(unlessyouusetheVolvocompositestern
drive).Inboardsandthesurfacedrivesallowyoutoselectthedriveshaftlengthtoimprovethe
placementtheenginemass.TheArnesondealertoldmethattheyconvertedaFountainboattoArneson
drivesandwereabletoeliminate1,000poundsofballastfromthebow.Needlesstosaythey
experiencedasignificantperformanceimprovement.
IguessIamusedtodealingwithmoresophisticatedcustomersthantheaverageconsumer.Idonot
thinkthattheaverageuserwillusetheirboatenoughtomakefuelconsumptionverysignificant.Iwas
moreconcernedwiththetotalcostofownership.Totalcostofownershipisthepurchasepriceplusthe
associatedcostofmoney,maintenanceandoperatingcostminustheresalevalue.Militarycustomers
won'tuseoutboards(exceptofRIBs)orsterndrivesbecausetheyknowthetotalcostofownershipis
muchhigherandperformanceislower.
Cheers
MikeSchooley

Willallison

0618200204:09AM

It'saninterestingpointyoumakeMike.The1stthoughtthatspringstomindisthatyourmilitary
customerswouldchoosedieselpowerwherepossiblebecauseofitslongevityandreliability.Itmakes
sensethoughasdieselmanufacturerspullmoreandmorepowerouttheirmotorsandother
manufacturersgohigherandhighertech,thedifferenceisn'tquitewhatitusedtobe.
Yet(inthesepartsatleast)commercialoperatorsoverwhelminglygoforoutboards.Thereareanumber

ofreasonsforthisdowntimesareshorter(simplyunboltonemotorandboltonanother),initial
purchasepriceislower(thandieselsanyway)andthecostsaretaxdeductable,sotheycanreplace
themevery12000hrsforminimalcost.Theotherreasonisthatoutboardpoweredboatstendtobe
mucheasiertogetintoandkeepinsurvey.
Oh,andyou'rerightthatGlindunitI'vefoundisn't12voltinfactI'veyettotrackonedown.Oneboat
thatIthoughtuseda12voltsystem,wasinfacta240voltimmersiontypeheatingunit,runthoughan
inverterandonlyusedwiththeenginesrunning.

Portager

0619200201:42AM

PowerVentSurfaceDrive

I'vethoroughlyresearchedallthedriveoptions(Icanthinkof)forO1andIwouldliketorecommend
the"PowerVent"surfacedrive.http://www.powervent.comPowerVentisasurfacepiercingdrive,like
theArnesondrive,howeveritismountedcompletelyunderthesterninaventedtunnel.Theventis
connectedtothesternviaaseparatetunnelandiscleverlydesignedtoprovidespeedcompensated
ventilationtothesurfacepiercingpropeller.Inthiswaythedriverequiresnodriverinterventionas
speedandconditionschangeandtheflexcouplingsandhydraulicactuatorsareeliminated.
HereisareportthattheNavalSurfaceWarfareCenterCarderockDivisionfiledonatestofthePower
Ventdrive.http://www.powervent.com/navyreport.html.Inthistest,themaximumspeedobtained
duringthetrialswas40.5kts(46.6mph).Morerecenttestreportsshowthattheyhaveincreasedthatto
51mph.http://www.smithboats.com/robb_report.htmYouwillnotethattherecommendationofthe
Carderockreportwastoacquireaprototypeboat.Asaresultofthisreporta40'boatdrivenbya
PowerVentsurfacedrivehasrecentlybeenacquired.http://www.powervent.com/APTD.htmlitwas
deliveredinJanuary2002.http://www.smithboats.com/military_police_craft.htm.Ishouldbeableto
obtainacopyoftheongoingtestresultsonthisboatwhentheyarecomplete.
AnotherinformativearticleonPowerVentwaswritteninPopularMechanics
http://popularmechanics.com/outdoors..._The_Surface/.Aninterestingparagraphreads,"Realworld
testingofPowerVentwasdonebyGeorgeBoynton,founderandthenpresidentofShamrockBoats.He
installedaPowerVentsysteminaShamrock31sportfish.PoweredbytwinCrusader454cu.in.330hp
engines,theboathadameasuredtopspeedof45mph.ModifyingthehullwithPowerVentsawthetop
speedjumpto52mphanincreaseof15percent.Fuelefficiencyat35mphcruisespeedwentfrom1.25
mpgto1.5mpga20percentgain."Theseresultsareonthelowendoftherangetheimprovements
demonstratedbyconventionalsurfacedrives.IftheseresultswereachievedonO1,wecouldachieve
15%higherspeedthatanequivalentlyequipped"ExpressCruiser",orwecouldachievecomparable
speedwithasmallerengine.
Hereisasummaryofmyfindings:
Performance:significantlybetterthatsterndrives,inboardsandoutboards(?)almostasgoodas
conventionalsurfacedrive
Cost:Lowerthansurfacedriveclosetoinboard
Corrosionresistance:Comparabletoinboardandsurfacedrivebetterthansterndriveandoutboards.
Massproperties:Heavierthanoutboardscomparabletoinboardlighterthansterndrivesandsurface
drives.GreaterflexibilityinlongitudinalCGthatoutboardsandsterndrives.BetterverticalCGthat
outboards.
Engineflexibility:canaccommodateeithergas(petrol)ordieselengines,eitherraworfreshwater
cooling,interfacetowaterheater.
ThemaindisadvantagearethePowerVentmustbeintegratedintothehullandtheenginemustbe
locatedfurtherforward.
Cheers
MikeSchooley

duluthboats

0619200202:22AM

Irememberreadingaboutthem.Greatidea,butitwouldeatupsomespace.Canwejusttakethisidea
anduseit,orwillwehavetopayauserfee.

Gary

Willallison

0619200203:35AM

Gary,
Ibelievethatyousimplybuythepowerventsysteminthesamewayasyouwouldbuyanyotherdrive
systemthoughthehullmustbedesignedspecificallytotaketheunit.
Asyoumayhavenoticedfromanumberofmyotherposts,I'mabitofafanofsurfacedrivesbut
(ain'ttherealwaysoneofthem!)theybringupanumberofotherissues.....
1stup,we'veelectedtogiveO1amaxspeedofabout28knots.Frommemory,IthinkTwinDisc
suggestthattheArnesonsurfacedrivebecomesmoreefficientthanotherdrivesabove35knots.The
powerventisprobablysimilar.
2ndyouareunabletotrimoneofthesedrivesup.Thatmeansriskiershorelandings(thoughbetterthan
withconventionalshafts).Italsomakescleaningdebri,orchangingpropsaremuchmoredifficultjob.
Lastly,I'mnotsosurethatIwouldagreewithMikeaboutthecorrosionresistance.Outboardsthese
dayshavesufficienttrimtoenablethemtobeliftedcompletelyclearofthewaterzerocorrosion
problems.AndrememberthatO1isnotlikelytobeleftinthewaterforlengthyperiodsoftime
anyway.
Asidefromallthat,IreallylookforwardtoseeingtheresultsofthetestsofthisunitandasIsaid,I
lovesurfacedrives,soI'dlovetobeconvincedthatitwastheunitforO1......

Willallison

0619200204:33AM

Whenindoubt,asksomeonewhoknows....
I'veemailedPowerventandaskedthemwhethertheirdrivewouldbeappropriateforaboatwithatop
ofabout30knotsandabletooperateefficientlyonplanedowntoaround15.
HopefullyI'llgetareplysoon.

dweymer

0619200210:45AM

Hiall...asforoutboardvs.inboard/sterndrive,IthinkImayhaveasimple(albeitsilly)suggestion:the
"average"expressboatbuyerdesiresinbd/sterndriveoveroutboardssothattheycanswimofftheback
withoutdodgingthemotors/props...plus,aswimplatformmakesaniceplacetocookoutattheslip.:D

Jeff

0619200211:13AM

First,welcometotheforumsdweymer!Ithinktheappearanceandfunctionalityofthetransomcertainly
isalargepartofit.WillpostedonesolutiontothiswhichIhadnotseenbeforewhereahingedportion
oftheswimplatformliftswiththeoutboard.I'mnotsurehowlargeasectionthiswouldbepracticalfor,
butitseemslikeanoption.http://forums.boatdesign.net/showthr...=2521#post2521

Portager

0619200211:54AM

Inregardstothespeed,IthinkyourontherighttrackcontactingPowerVent.Iemailedthem
yesterdaybuthavenotreceivedareplyyet.ArnesonandTwinDiscbothtoldmesurfacedrivesare
moreefficientatallspeedsaboveplaningbecausethedragislowerandthemechanicallossesinthe

drivetrainarelower.ThedataIreceivedfromTwinDisc(andhaven'thadtimetoreportonyet)
supportsthis.OnecomparisonTwinDiscprovidedinvolvedchanginga"fixedsurfacedrive"ona26'
"SeaSkimmer"tunnelhull.Cruisespeed,definedas2700rpm,increasedfrom27mphto33mphand
fuelconsumptionatcruisewentfrom10gphto8gph.Thisrepresentsa20%improvementinfuel
consumptionratebuta51%improvementinmileage,from2.7mpgto4.1mpg.TwinDiscalsoretrofita
100'CamcraftwhichwasconvertedfromasupplyboattoaYacht.Theengineswerereducedfromthree
600HPenginestotwo650HPengines.Cruisespeedwentfrom24.3knotsto23.7knotswitha28%
powerreduction.Fuelconsumptionwentfrom100gphto72gph.Inthetableofmilitaryapplications
theylista26'UnifliteSurveyCraftwithaspeedof24knots,a70'Boghammarlandingcraftwitha
speedof25knotsanda50'Bristolpatrolboatwithaspeedof28knots.
Oncorrosion,keepinmindthatoutboardsaresaltwatercooledandtheyhavedissimilarmetals.Many
inboardsarefreshwatercooledandhavenodissimilarmetals.Surfacedrivesarestainlesssteelwith
zincs.Whileitistruethatmosttrailerableboatsarekeptonthetrailer,O1isalsointendedtospenda
weekatatimeonthewater.Outboardswillrequireafreshwaterflushafterusewhichwillprobablynot
beperformedeachday.
Youhaveagoodpointabouttrimmingthedriveforabeachlanding,butIdidn'tseethatrequirementin
therequirementslist:).ThePowerVentsavesalotofcostandcomplexitybyeliminatingtheneedto
trimthedrive.
AnotherdisadvantageofPowerVentthatIoverlookedislowspeedmaneuverability.Youcannotvector
thethrustandsurfacepiercingpropsdonotreverseverywell.
Cheers
MikeSchooley

Willallison

0619200208:25PM

I'mnottoosurethatthePowerVentwouldsufferfromtheoftendiscussedlowspeedmanouvering
problemsfacedbysurfacedrives.
TheproblemfacedbyanumberofsystemsthosesuchastheArnesonsonyourMagnumisthatthe
reversethrustfromthepropsisdirectedstraightintotheessentiallyverticaltransom.Thesection
drawingofthePowerVentshowshullcutoutswhichshouldallowthisthrusttopassundertheboat,soI
wouldimaginethatitwouldbeokinthisregard.
It'sinterestingtoseethevarietyofapplicationsfortheArneson'sandmanyofthoseyou'venotedfall
withintheperformancespectrumofO1,withitsexpectedtopofabout28knots.Butyouwillalsonote
thatmostofthesearecommercialormilitaryboatsdesignedtooperatecontiniuouslyatagiven
servicespeed.O1mustbeefficientthroughoutitsspeedrangeinordertobesuccesfulliefromabout
12knotstoabout28.I'myettobeconvincedwhetherthesurfacedriveiscapableofthis.

Portager

0619200209:06PM

YourexplanationoftheMagnumreversingproblemmakessense.IhopeyourrightaboutthePowerVent
reversingbetter.:)
Ionlylistedthemodelsthatwere<=28knots.Therewerealotmorethatare>28knots.
Themilitarypatrolboatstendtooperateforverylongperiodsatpatrolspeedswhicharetypically12to
18knotsdependingonseastates.Theyonlyoperateatmaximumspeedwhentryingtoovertake
someoneorwhenrespondingtoarescuerequest.Itistruetheirhardestrequirementisgenerally
maximumspeed,buttheyarealsoveryconcernedwithcruisingrange/endurance.
WhatTwinDiscandArnesontoldmeisthatthesurfacedriveismoreefficientthatconventionaldrives
(specificallyoutboardsandsterndrives)atallplanningspeeds.Belowplanningspeedtheyareclaimed
tobeequivalenttoaconventionaldrive.Italkedtoourboatdriverandheconfirmedthis.
IthinkthebestinputwouldbefromsomePowerVentcustomers.IknowsomeguysatNSWC
Carderock.I'llseeiftheyhaveanyfeedbackontheirPowerVentboatyet.
I'dliketodosomecostcomparisonsforthedifferentdriveoptions.I'malittleconcernedaboutthecost
oftheRollasurfacepiercingprop.Whathorsepowerrangedoyouthinkwewillendupin?

Cheers
MikeSchooley

Willallison

0619200209:49PM

Manyoutboard/sterndriveownerscarryspareprops,sothatintheeventofdamageitcanbequickly
andeasilyreplaced.Alsoitallowsforachangeinpitchtosuitvaryingloads/conditions.
Thecostoftherolla,orsimilarpropsisonly1/2theproblem:theiravailabilitycouldbeaproblemalso.
FromwhatIcangather,propselectionisvitallyimportanttosuccessfulsurfacedrives.Andoverloading
theboatcanrenderasurfacedrivevirtuallyinoperable.Thesecouldallposeproblemsfortheamateur
builder.

Willallison

0620200212:41AM

Asfarashprequirementsareconcerned,Tomrecentlypostedthefollowingnumbers:
90hp=24knots
115hp=28knots
150hp=32knots
iewe'redefinitelyatthebottomendofthesurfacedrivepowerspectrum!

Portager

0620200202:05AM

ModerateSpeedSurfaceDrive

Ifoundanarticletitled"SurfacePiercingPropellers
byPaulKamen,N.A."http://www.simplicitymarine.com/surfprop.htmwhichIthinksanswersthe
questionoftheapplicationofsurfacedrivestomoderatespeed(i.e.28knotsmax)planingvessels.
Theentirearticleisquiteinterestingandinformative,butthepartthatisthemostapplicabletoO1is,
"Surfacepropellershavelongbeenacceptedforracingapplications,whereminimizingappendagedrag
andcavitationarethemajormotivations.Inrecentyears,anincreasingnumberofhighspeedyachts
andpatrolboatshavebeenpropelledbysurfacepropellers,andsomeoftheseapplicationshavebeen
spectacularlysuccessful.Buttheuseofsurfacepropulsionforrelativelyheavyandslowvesselsisnew."
Cheers
MikeSchooley

Portager

0620200202:08PM

PaulKamen

IcalledPaulKamen(PaulKamen<mailto:pk@well.com>isanavalarchitectwithdegreesfromWebb
InstituteofNavalArchitectureandtheUniversityofCaliforniaatBerkeley.FormerlytheApplications
NavalArchitectforArnesonMarine,heisnowanindependentconsultantspecializinginsurface
propulsion.)anddiscussedtheO1projectwithhim.HesaidthatatthespeedsthatO1isdesignedfor
wewouldprobableseeasmallincreaseinspeedoverasubmergeddriveforagivenpowerlevel.He
didn'tknowhowmuchofanimprovementthesurfacepiercingdrivewouldprovide,butheindicatedit
wouldperformbetterthanasubmergeddrive.
HesaidthatSimplicityacquiredthearticlethathewroteandaddedtheirname.Hisoriginalarticleisat
http://www.well.com/user/pk/SPAprofboat.htmlyoucanalsodownloadaprogramthathewrotewhile
heworkedatArnesontoanalyzesurfacedrivecraftathttp://www.well.com/user/pk/SPA.html
ThisprogramshouldprovideafairlygoodestimateofO1performancewithasurfacepiercingdrive.
Cheers

MikeSchooley

Willallison

0620200207:37PM

What'sthattheysayaboutgreatminds?.......PooroldMrKamenmustbewonderingwhat'sgoingonI
emailedhimtodiscusstheO1projectandanotherthatIamworkingon!!
Ihaveactuallyseenhisarticlereproducedinanumberofplacespittyheprobablydoesn'tgetroyalties
forsuchuse!
Asyousay,hecouldseenoproblemwiththeuseofasurfacedrive.Imentionedmyconcernswiththe
requirementtoperformoverawideperformancespectrumandhemadenoreferencetothisinhis
reply,soIthinkwecansafelyassumethatitshouldposenoproblems.
Butgiventhatthesurfacedriveisonlylikelytoyieldasmallperforomanebenefit,itcan'tbesaidtobe
somuchbetterthanthealternativestorenderthemnotworthyofconsideration.Italsomeansthatthe
surfacedrivedefinitelyISworthyofconsideration.

Portager

0621200202:13AM

SurfaceDrives

Iagreewithyourconclusion.Thesurfacedriveisjustoneoftheoptions.I'mcollectingcomparisondata
onoutboard,sterndrive,surfacedrivesand?
IalsocalledPowerVenttoday.Italkedtotheirsalesmanager(ifyoucancalltheheadofaoneman
departmentamanager)andtheirapplicationengineer.TheybothtriedtoconvincemethatO1wasn'ta
goodapplicationforasurfacedrive.WhenIpressedthemonthistheyadmittedthattheyhadonlytried
onemoderatespeedvessel(aSeaDooconversion)andtheyadmittedthattheyhadthegearratio
wrong.Iconcludedthatformoderatespeedapplicationsitiscriticaltooptimizethepropdiameterand
gearratiofortheintendedspeedlikePaulrecommends.IfwedoendupselectingasurfacedriveIthink
wewouldbewisetoseekprofessionalhelp.Ialsodecidedthatthe"PowerVent"maynotbethebest
surfacedriveoption.
Cheers
MikeSchooley

Willallison

0625200208:14PM

I'vedonealittleresearchasfarasthehotwatersystemissueisconcernedforoutboardpoweredboats.
Itseemsthatifyouwanttoavoidtheuseofgas(lpgetc)whichisagoodideainanypetrolengined
boatthentheonlyrealoptionistogofora240/120voltimmersionstyleheaterrunviaaninverter
whentheengineisrunning.
Atfirstthisseemsalittleawkward,butifyouconsiderthechoicesmadeforinboardpoweredboats,the
endresultisn'tvastlydifferent.Mosthwsystemsoperateonhighvoltagewhenthevesselisconnected
toshorepower(orgenerator)orthroughaheatexchangerwhentheengineisrunning,soyoucanstill
onlygeneratehwbyrunningthemotorwhenyou'reawayfromthedock.Andinmyexperience,in
commerciallymadeunits,theimmersionelementisamoreeffectiveheaterthantheheateexchanger
anyway.

Nomad

0625200208:24PM

Couldsomeonegivemeaquicksummary(ex.speed,power),youGuysleftmebehind.WAYWAYBACK!!
Thanksinadvance...........

Nomad
IREALLYmissstartingtopics(beingacaptianoratleastaCoCaptian)

0625200208:27PM

Willallison

0625200209:04PM

Nomad,asrequestedspeedchoicesmadesofar:
1.Maxspeed2528knots
2.MaxCruise2022
3.abletomaintainplaningdownto12knotsandeconomicaltooperatethroughoutitsspeedrange
LaterwecouldgiveconsiderationtotheGTiExpre$$version.

Nomad

0625200211:09PM

ThanksWillyouhavebeenabighelptoday!!:)

Nomad

0629200211:03PM

Justnoticedthattheplaningspeedisapprox.thesameasthe"ORCA"31'and36'.

Boghammar

0309200610:20AM

Boghammarboats

regardingtheBoghammarboatsumention.Oneofourboatsthatismoreknownisthetypewebuiltto
Iran.A13meterlongpatrolboatwith"secondeffort"Surfacedrives,doingroughly60knots.
Bestregards
WilhelmBoghammar

Willallison

0309200606:25PM

HmmmshowuspicsWilhelm!

CORMERAN
Why?

Portager,
pureengineeringdoesn'tapplyneccessarilytomarketingorbuilding
recreationalboats.
Builders,concernedwithmanhours,lovesterndrives.Becauseyou
justcutaroundholeintheflatpartatthebackoftheboatglassin
somethingtobolttheenginetooandyouarereadytoshoveintheunit.
Alsowiringuptheinboardusuallygoesprettyquick.
Conversely,IhavespentDAYSinstallinganO/Bbracketandgetting
allthewiresinplace,inasanitaryandshipshapemanner.
Fromadesignpointofviewbeyond18'outboardsbecomeharder
andhardertojustifie.
Becausethebiggertheyget,thelessseaworthy,generalythingsbecome.
Alsothestressesonthetransomcanbeofconcern.Asweightand
H.P.escalate.
AclientonceaskedmetodesignavesselthatwouldhavehadFOUR!!
giantoutboardshanginginspaceofftheendofhisboat.

0526200608:53PM

Irefusedtodoit.
Subsequently,araceboatriggedthiswaylostit'stransom.
AndtheFOURgiantO/B'sonit.......andthenquiclytheboatsankaswell.
Therearesoundengineeringreasonsforinboardinstallations.

AlltimesareGMT4.Thetimenowis03:03AM.
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