ao18 Low temperature per 831.3 ‘American Welding Society ‘American Welding Society Forum Not logged in Tope Welding Industry / ASME Codes / Low temperature per 831.3, By fachweiahard! ppp Date 03-20-2012 19:10 | have been on a low-temp project based on 31.3, and would ke to know itanybady can quote something from the code that ‘exempls impact testing on 804L stainloss at-320F. all can finds f you cannot exvact tie smallest Charpy sub-size from your ‘chosen procedureiperformence coupons. Ave you required by Code fo run 3 coupon ‘hat will low extraction af the coupon, or do You get exempted based on the se ofthe test proce (m our case 2 112 NPS S40), Some poople | tak to say stainless fe exemol per table A:T, but f you go through the materials chapter, you go below ~155F, you seem to be on the hook for impacts By patatorchip pp Date 03-22-2012 21:32 What chapter are you working to? High pressure, uid service? By fschwoishard! ppp Date 09-23-2012 01:93 Normal fui service, Right naw Im in chapter Il rying forall down base metal and weld metal required tests for -220 and -425 deg F- on 3041 SS By fachweishard! ppp Date 04-04-2012 14:50 Bump tothe top By 803058 pp pypop Date 04-05-2012 18:52 | dont have my B31.3 handy, but based on my experience; most ASME procedures are qualfied on plate, Things get a itte more Complicated when notch toughness is swoked, In some cases the festng must be done for each praduct form ang mater Spocifcaton, and each combination, As you already know, you have to refer to the construction code fo determine if and wren Un'testing s required. Each service category has an opportunity to tweak the requrements of how the procedure s qualfied ‘and what ean and cannat be dane in production \Who is caling out 831.3 normal service for a cryogenic application? The indvidual classifying the fd service should determine if Notch testing s required OK. you forced me to find my copy of 831.3 (2006 is handy) and cig through allthe muck to see what Lcan see. Assuming itis normal ful service, lok at Appendix A. |Tacated 3041 and nolce there are several notes, Noles 1, 5, 64, and 36 apoly pending on whether the 304L pe meets ASME SA269, SA312 or SASS8 requirements, Lets assume k medts SAZ69 where the mast nates apply. Of those notes Isted, note 36 seem to be applicable for both SAZBS and SASS materials Depending on the Condon of heat treatment, «may have to be impact tastod ithe service tomporaturo ie lowor tan -20 dogroes F. I the op meets SAS12 or tis soluton heat treated the lowest temperature listed in Appencix Act apples (-425 degrees F) and the ppe an be used down to that temperature before impact testing is required Remember what the laters ASME stands for, Aways, Sometimes, Maybe, of Except. Go back to paragraph 323.22(c) where i Feferences Table 323.22. Inthe table, column Allst condttons forthe basé metal where impact testing required an conctons where the weld and HAZ must be impact tested. It chases you back to paragraph 823 2.2 and to notes (3) and (6) found at the fd ofthe tale. Note (3) requires you to knw the stress ratio as well as tre temperature which mist be between -20 and -155 Segrees F and nate (6) Says you don't have to tests the with of the impact specimen obtainable st wide enough. Your service temperatures lover, s0 yau are ston the hook, Keep in mind that paragraph 323.3 states that each product form and material specification must be tested. So, the raw materials ust be ordered withthe required testing or the user can do R(rght), Then the welds must alsa be qualfied by impact testing ‘Ths gets very expensive, very quekly Because you have to check the design to determine what combinations of material specifeation ana alloys are welded together, Each combination has fo be tested fram what | road, These requirements override the requrements of paragragh 328.2 () which alows for tostng based on P number. That baing the case, back to testing each ambinaton of matfalspeefcatan and ay ype. Another example whore the constructan code ramps the requirement of ection IX The only out! se0 is note (6), but consider the fitings and valves you willbe using. If the iting or valves are thick enough, you stil may have todo impact testing depending on the materal specication involved ‘The need for impact testing isthe design engineers responsbilly. The CW in general, is not rained to determine when impact testing required, The use of ASME codes more Involved than D1. or API 1104. f you are actualy working with ASME. | Suggest you allend several f the short courses offered by ASME. The ASME shori courses are not naxpenswe and you need to Setermine whethor you can justy the cost of buying the applicable cade sections and time needea to attend the ASME traning Courses. you are net normally volved wih ASME and you cannot justify the cost of proper Vainng, you may be wise fo sleer lear of Welder qualification isa diferent story, tis fairly straight forward and not that complcated. That is something most CWs can handle, Bul qualifying a welang procedure is much mare involved especialy when working fo the mulude of png codes and the various flid service classes, The CW typiealy isnt usually rane, experenced, and rarely provided wih suffeient information to Properly maneuver through the maze called ASME. Best regards ~Al Fitps:itap.aws.orgorumtopic_show pl 720180 18ao18 Low temperature per 831.3 By 10020013. pap pop Date 04-05-2012 19:29 Alsaid tperfectly in one sentence: The need for impact testing s the design engineer's responsbilily. While 831.3 calls out impacts fr low temperatures (original poster has already noted exceptions based on cerlan atrbutes), remans tre designers Fesponsioiity fo specifcaly require. That sad, | would expect very litle problems with austenitic stainless, even at cryogenic temps. Why not ust do them, they're not hugely expensive,that way your covered I they are needed? By fschwoighardt ppp Date 04-08-2012 17:38 let me get into the office and looks ome of his up guys fschwoighar ate 04-09-2 ited 04 By fschwoiahardt pp yp Date 04-09-2012 11:31 Edited 04-08-2012 20:08, Cn his one | am part of the design team, and we havea project where most of te fabrication wi be done by an outside vendor, fn an inina employee le cong the enn. Ihave made my way song he same nes ae Aoulied to note 6 of Tabi 323.32 andit tls me that cannot exact a Charpy sample a any ofthe approves sizes fom my coupon, aon have todo te mpact testa (or slanloss steals actualy a lateral expansion per table 3235) The ting run rno, most ofthe POR testing | get from vendore's the same as the Performance quaficaton test ands run on “25° pe as they are tying to KN2 bros wih one test, Not much chance of geting a Chapry spetmen of any size out ofthat ite pipe. ‘As it stands, | wilhave to specy materials that are supplied in the soln. heat treated condition {which is usually the case, but you gotta spec ft) Table 323.3.1 par AS give some guidance on the fact that Charpy samples do not have to be taken from each lt, nor from malar rom Gach job, procded hat aporoprato tesign has been dane. they go onto 6a) that all you neo i same ipo and rade of material and ofthe sama thickness range. Ths may glve an opportu to just make Up some Small sample just wide Srouph for charpys, probes aed a coue of cknees ranges, bul hat should be easy enough me | was contemplating having the small supplementary coupons welded up forthe impactlateral expansion tests and having them appended to fe existing WPS. Problem how becomes the fact that al of the suop. essental variables are needed and probably fot recorded So, for the $54K question, do you make the vendor run a plate WPSIPQR and get the Charpys from thet coupon, and then have the standard Perdormance qualrunon the approorato se pipe ® ii pe 6 as above, (r do you folow the letter ofthe cade and make yourself exempt from impact testing based on not Personal | am leaning foward plate charpys, and separate performance qualification. Last thing | need is @ ruptured lqud hydrogen ne and less than perfect documeniaton. By i855 yp ppp Date 04-09-2012 17:19 Fred, Those are the engineering decisions that can be tough to make. But| would suggest that you have concerns go conservative, especialy If thoy are asking for #25, You wor't gol a representative -426, You cannot get ihe specimen from tne bath to the machine fast enough By 803055 pp ppp Date 04-08-2012 18:01 | know of an environmental fest chamber atthe Jahnson Space Centar that is being refurbished to go down to -400 degre ‘Yu might solcte your congressman to got some time n the chamber. Just kidding Bost regards - Al 8 F. By fschweighardt ppp Date 04-09-2012 20:22 | can actually get pretty good low temp data with liquid helium | shouldbe able to hit right around the 426 mark with samples starting a ~482.ifthere is any ustice (which there never) | should be able to use Pe (304/304L/316/316L anyway) tested at “425 for my services at-320 with no problems. Itkinda sucks having the lamps in Table A-1 go 80 rie ana ow, and then Mave to ome back and doa bunch of impacts for way higher MOMT By i855 pp yppyp Date 04-10-2012 1049 This whole -425 thing has been in debate for some time due tothe inherent inacuracy. The specimen wil heat heat up realy fast Liga helium certainly tho oplmmum way to go butT would etl quoss you are hatter than ~425 by the time the specimen is removed from the bath, placed in the anvil, and smacked withthe hammer. Ifyou are operating as 2 design spec and not code complance you might consider notched tensiles as they do for nickel alloys. and such under B33, fschweighar ate 04-11 By fschwoighardt ppp Dato 04-11-2012 01-44 yeah, will be tf, Bl we are going to have more and more fll compliance piping, and we do so much low temp. | gotta get after the copper guys as wel Topic Welding Industry / ASME Codes / Low temperature per B31.3 Fitps:itap.aws.orgorumtopic_show pl 720180 28ao18 Fitps:itap.aws.orgorumtopic_show pl 720180 Low temperature per 831.3 = ASME Codes