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FeaturesLiterature
ThomasBernhard(19311989)isinternationallyacknowledgedasoneofthe
greatest20thcenturywriters.Bernhardspentmuchofhischildhoodwithhis
maternalgrandparentsinAustria,wherehelatersettled(henevermethisfather).
Hisiconoclastic,repetitiveprosewonhimbothunconditionaladmirersand
uncompromisingcritics.Thismajorinterview,conductedin1986,hasonlyrecently
beenpublishedinGerman.

11/12/2006
ThomasBernhardforlife
Inaninterviewfrom1986,thelateAustrianauthorThomasBernharddiscusses
themusicalityoflanguage,theeroticismofoldmenandtheincurabilityof
stupidity.ByWernerWgerbauer
Vienna,CafeBrunerhof,earlyonthemorningofJuly15,1986.ThomasBernhard
hadsetarathervaguerendezvousforaninterview.Hewashavinghisapartment
redecorated,hesaid,"naturally"inwhite.Hecouldnotstandthepresenceofthe
workersinhishome,causinghimtofleetothecoffeehouseintheearlymorning.
WhenIarrive,hehasalreadysettleddown,neartheentrance,"wheretheairis
better."Heiswalledinbymoundsofnewspaperswhosepagesheskimshastily,
almosttearingthemasheflipsthrough.Aninterview?Yes,hesays,he'sinthemood
today.Butshortandtothepoint.

ThomasBernhardinCafeBrunerhofinVienna,1988.PhotoSeppDreissinger)

ThomasBernhard:So,I'lljustkeepreadingthepaper,youdon'tmind,doyou?

WernerWgerbauer:Well,no,byallmeans.

You'llhavetoasksomethingandthenyou'llgetananswer.

Doesthefateofyourbooksinterestyou?

No,notreally.

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Whatabouttranslationsforexample?

I'mhardlyinterestedinmyownfate,andcertainlynotinthatofmybooks.
Translations?Whatdoyoumean?

Whathappenstoyourbooksinothercountries.

Doesn'tinterestmeatall,becauseatranslationisadifferentbook.Ithasnothingto
dowiththeoriginalatall.It'sabookbythepersonwhotranslatedit.Iwriteinthe
Germanlanguage.Yougetsentacopyofthesebooksandeitheryoulikethemor
youdon't.Iftheyhaveawfulcoversthenthey'rejustannoying.Andyouflip
throughandthat'sit.Ithasnothingincommonwithyourownwork,apartfromthe
weirdlydifferenttitle.Right?Becausetranslationisimpossible.Apieceofmusicis
playedthesametheworldover,usingthewrittennotes,butabookwouldalways
havetobeplayedinGerman,inmycase.Withmyorchestra!

Butwhenyoubanfutureproductionsofyourplay'DerWeltverbesserer,'(The
WorldFixer)thenthat'ssomethingsimilar,youareconcernedaboutthefateofyour
texts.

No,because'DerWeltverbesserer'waswrittenforaspecificactorbecauseIknewhe
wastheonlyonewhocouldperformit,atthattime,becausetherewasnoolder
actorlikehim,soitcameaboutquitenaturally.There'snopointhavingitperformed
bysomeassholeinHanover,nothingwouldcomeofit.Ifthere'sgoingtobe
nothingbuttrouble,youshouldn'tdoit.

Howdoyouexplainthefactthatyou'retakenfarmoreseriouslyabroadthanyou
areinAustria,thatyouareactually"read"abroadwhereasinAustriayou're
consideredprimarilyassomeonewhocausesscandals?

That'sbecauseoutsideAustria,inthesocalledRomanceandSlavonicworlds,
there'sagreaterinterestinliteratureingeneral.Ithasanentirelydifferentstatus
whichitlackshere.Here,literaturehasnovalueatall.Musicisvaluedhere,theatre
isvalued,everythingelseessentiallyhasnovaluewhatsoever.It'salwaysbeenthat
way.

Assoonasyouevenactfriendlytosomeoneonthestreet,peopledon'ttakeyou
seriously,that'senoughtomakethemtakeyouforaclown.Whatsomeonelikethat
doescan'tbeofanyvalue.It'slikeinfamilylife.Ifyougrowupinafamily,
perfectlynormal,withalltheusualchildishfunandwhathaveyou,thenfortherest
ofyourlifepeopletellyouyou'reacharlatan,thatit'snogood,thattheboywho
doesnothingbutmakejokesshouldcomplainabouthisgrandmother'sawful
cooking,andthatcan'tbeanygood.Andthatfollowsyoutothegrave.Andit'sthe
samewiththestateandthecountryasawhole.Ifyougoaboutasafriendlyperson,
you'rethrough.Peopletreatyoulikeacabaretartistandthat'sthat.AndinAustria,
anythingseriousgetsturnedintocabaret,whichtakesthestingoutofit.Anytrace
ofearnestalwaysendsuponthefunnysideAustrianscanonlytolerate
seriousnessasajoke.Inothercountries,there'sstillasenseofseriousness.I'm
seriousperson,too,butnotallthetime,thatwoulddriveanyonemad,anditwould
bestupid.That'sthewayitis.

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TheauthoronhisfavouritebenchinVienna,1988.PhotoSeppDreissinger)

Yourcharactersandyouyourselfoftensaytheydon'tcareaboutanything,which
soundsliketotalentropy,universalindifferenceofeveryonetowardseverything.

Notatall,youwanttodosomethinggood,youtakepleasureinwhatyoudo,likea
pianist,hehastostartsomewheretoo,hetriesthreenotes,thenhemasterstwenty,
andeventuallyheknowsthemall,andthenhespendstherestofhislifeperfecting
them.Andthat'shisgreatpleasure,that'swhathelivesfor.Andwhatsomedowith
notes,Idowithwords.Simpleasthat.I'mnotreallyinterestedinanythingelse.
Becausegettingtoknowtheworldhappensanyway,bylivinginit,assoonasyou
walkoutthedooryou'reconfrontedwiththeworlddirectly.Withthewholeworld.
Withupanddown,backandfront,uglinessandbeauty,perfectlynormal.There's
noneedtowantthis.Ithappensofitsownaccord.Andifyouneverleavethe
house,theprocessisthesame.

Thereisnothingbutstrivingforperfection.Youwanttogetbetterandbetter.

Thereisnoneedtostriveforanythingintheworld,becauseyougetpushedtowards
itinanycase.Strivinghasalwaysbeennonsense.TheGermanword"Streber"
(strivermeaningswotorbrownnoser)meanssomethingawful.Andstrivingis
justasawful.Theworldhasapullthatdragsyouwhetheryoulikeitornot,there's
noneedtostrive.Whenyoustrive,youbecomea"Streber".Youknowwhatthat
means.It'shardtotranslateintoanotherregion.

Well,Iknowwhatitis.

Youknowwhatitmeans,butIdon'tthinkpeopleinFranceknowwhata"Streber"
is.Idon'tthinktheyhavethem.

Butthisquestforperfectiondoesplayaroleinyourbooks.

That'stheattractionofanyart.That'sallartis,gettingbetterandbetteratplaying
yourchoseninstrument.That'sthepleasureofit,andnoonecantakethatpleasure
awayfromyouortalkyououtofit.Ifsomeoneisagreatpianistthenyoucanclear
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outtheroomwherehe'ssittingwiththepiano,fillitwithdust,andthenstart
throwingbucketsofwaterathim,buthe'llstayputandkeeponplaying.Evenifthe
housefallsdownaroundhim,he'llcarryonplaying.Andwithwritingit'sthesame
thing.

Soithassomethingtodowithfailurethen.

Whathastodowithfailure?

Thequestforperfection.

Everythingfailsintheend,everythingendsinthegraveyard.There'snothingyou
candoaboutit.Deathclaimsthemallandthat'stheendofit.Mostpeoplegiveinto
deathat17or18.Theyoungpeopleoftodayarerunningintothearmsofdeathat
age12,andthey'redeadat14.Thentherearesolitaryfighterswhostruggleonuntil
80or90,thentheydietoo,butatleasttheyhadalongerlife.Andbecauselifeis
pleasantandfun,theirfunlastslonger.Thosewhodieearlyhavelessfun,andyou
canfeelsorryforthem.Becausetheyhaven'treallygottoknowlife,becauselife
alsomeansalonglife,withallofitsawfulness.

Inyourview,doesthisawfulnessincludeeroticismandlove?

Everyoneknowswhateroticismis.There'snoneedtotalkaboutit.Everyonehas
theirownsenseoftheerotic.

Readingyourbooks,onegetstheimpressionthatyouseenohopewhatsoeverin
thisdomain.

That'sastupidquestionbecausenothingcanlivewithouteroticism,noteven
insects,theyneedittoo.Onlyifyouhaveatotallyprimitivenotionoftheerotic,of
course,that'snogood,becauseI'malwaysatpainstogobeyondtheprimitive.

Couldonesaythatyoutrytogobeyonditinthedirectionofsisterlylove?

Idon'ttryanythingatall.Allnonsense.Ineedneitherasisternoramistress.You
haveallthesethingswithinyourself,andsometimesyouuseitifyoufeellikeit.
Peoplealwaysbelievethatifsomethingisnotmentioneddirectly,it'snotthere,but
that'snonsense.Aneightyyearoldmanwho'sinbedsomewhereandwhohasn't
hadthisloveyou'retalkingaboutforfiftyyears,hetoohasasexuallife.Onthe
contrary,hisisamuchmoreamazingkindofsexualexistencethantheprimitive.I
prefertoseeadogdoingit,whereIcanwatchandstaystrong.

Whatkindofintellectualaimsdoyou...

Theseareallquestionsthatcan'tbeansweredbecausenooneasksthemselvesthat
sortofthing.Peopledon'thaveaims.Youngpeople,upto23,theystillfallforthat.
Apersonwhohaslivedfivedecadeshasnoaims,becausethere'snogoal.

You'realwayspresentedasakindoflonerinthemountains,themanfromthe
farm...

Whatcanyoudo.Yougetaname,you'recalled"ThomasBernhard",anditstays
thatwayfortherestofyourlife.Andifatsomepointyougoforawalkinthe

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woods,andsomeonetakesaphotoofyou,thenforthenexteightyyearsyou're
alwayswalkinginthewoods.There'snothingyoucandoaboutit.

...andsuddenlyhereyouareinanurbancontextlikethisViennesecoffeehouse.

Urbanityisaqualityyouhavetopossessfromwithin.Ithasnothingtodowiththe
exterior.No.Nothingbutstupidnotions.Buthumanityhasonlyeverexistedin
stupidnotions,there'snohelpingit.There'snocureforstupidity.That'safact.

Manyofyourreaders,includingsocalledhighbrowcritics,haverepeatedly
subjectedyourbookstonegativereadings.

Ireallycouldn'tgiveadamnhowpeoplereadmywork...

Whenpeopleringyouupandsaythey'dliketocommitsuicidewithyou?

Peoplehardlyeverringupanymore,thankGod.

Butwouldyougotheotherwayandcallyourselfahumorouswriter?

What'sallthissupposedtomean?Peopleareeverything.Eachindividualismoreor
lesseverything.Sometimeshelaughsandsometimeshedoesn't.Peoplesayit'sall
tragic,whichisstupidtoo,becauseI...

Alongsideyourwriting,doesyourworkalsoinvolvereflectingonwritingitself,asin
thecaseofDodererorThomasMann?

No,that'snotnecessary.Ifyou'reamasterofyourtradethenyouhavenoneedfor
reflection.Whenyougooutontothestreet,everythingworksforyou,youdon't
needtodoanything,youjusthavetokeepyoureyesandearsopenandwalk.You
don'tneedtothinkanymore,notifyou'reindependentorifyoumakeyourself
independent.Ifyou'reuptightandstupidorifyou'restrivingforsomething,then
nothingwillevercomeofit.Ifyouliveinlife,thenyou'venoneedtomakeany
specialeffort,itallcomestoyouofitsownaccord,anditwillleaveitsmarkon
whatyoudo.It'snotsomethingyoucanlearn.Youcanlearntosing,ifyouhavea
goodvoice.That'stheonecondition.Someonewho'snaturallyhoarsewillhardly
becomeanoperasinger.It'sthesameeverywhere.Youcan'tplaypianowithouta
piano.Orifallyouhaveisaviolinandyouwanttoplaypianoonit,thatwon't
workeither.Andifyoudon'twanttoplayviolin,thenyou'lljusthavetoplay
nothingatall.

Butwhenyoudescribeyourselfasadestroyerofstories,theninacertainwaythat
isatheoreticalstatement.

IsaidthatoncedidI,well,peoplesayalotofthingsinfiftyyearsoflife.The
amountofstupidthingspeoplesayoverthedecades,myselfincluded.Ifpeople
werealwaysheldtothethingstheysay.Ofcourse,ifareporterissittingina
restaurantsomewhereandhehearsyousaythebeef'snogood,thenhe'llalways
claimyou'resomeonewhodoesn'tlikebeef,fortherestofyourlife.Meanwhile,
maybeyouatenothingbutbeeffromthenon.

Apublisheronce...

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Whatisthat,apublisher?Icouldputthequestiontoyou:Whatisapublisher
(Verleger)?Abedsiderug(Bettvorleger),there'snodoubtwhatthatis.Buta
publisher,withoutthebed,that'shardertoanswer.Someonewhomisplaces
(verlegen)things,amuddledperson,whomisplacesthingsandcan'tfindthem
anymore.That'sthedefinitionofapublisher,someonewhomisplacesthings.A
publisher,hemisplacesthingsandmanuscriptswhichheacceptsandthenhecan't
findthemanymore.Eitherbecausehenolongerlikesthemorbecausehe's
muddled,eitherwaythey'regone.Misplaced.Foralleternity.AllthepublishersI
knowarelikethat.Noneofthemissogreatasnottobethekindwhomisplaces
things.Whopublishessomethingandthenit'seitherruinedorimpossibletofind.

Doesbreathingplayaroleinyourtexts,inthesenseofbreathingrhythm?

Ihappentobeamusicalperson,andwritingprosealwayshastodowithmusicality.

Breathinglikewithasinger...

Well,breathingisn'teasy.Somepeoplebreathefromthestomach,somefromthe
lungs.Singersbreatheonlywiththeirstomachsbecauseotherwisetheywouldn'tbe
abletosing.Youjusthavetotransferbreathingfromthestomachtothebrain.It's
thesameprocess.Youhavemanylittlelungsinthere,probablyafewmillion.For
thetimebeing.Untiltheycollapse.Becausebubblesburst,andlungscollapse.
Therearethosewhostillhavelungsat90.Andtherearethosewhohavenoneleft
bythetimethey're12,whojuststandaroundlikeidiots.Mostpeoplearelikethat,
98percent,maybeevenonepercentmore.Everytimeyouspeaktosomeone,
you'retalkingtoanidiot,butcharming.Andbecauseyou'renotaspoilsport,you
carryontalkingtopeople,goingoutformealswiththem,beingkindandnice.And
basicallythey'restupid,becausetheydon'tmakeaneffort.Whatyoudon'tuse
wastesawayanddiesoff.Sincepeopleusejusttheirmouthsbutnottheirbrains,
theygetverywelldevelopedpalatesandjaws,butthere'snothingleftintheir
brains.That'sthewayitusuallyis.

Youstartedoutwritingpoetry.

Ohplease!

Whatdoesthatmeantoyoutoday?

Nothingwhatsoever,Idon'tthinkaboutitatall.Youdon'tthinkbackoverevery
stepyou'veevertaken,doyou?You'dhavetosetbillions,hundredsofbillionsof
thoughtsinmotion.Likewithwalkingandrunning.Youcan'tbeconstantly
retracingwhereyou'vebeeninyourmind,oryou'llnevergetanywhereinteresting.

Theappearanceofyourvolumeofpoetryentitled"AveVirgil"in1981,wasthat
alsotheworkofthepublisher?Didhe"misplace"thattoo?

Well,IfounditandIthoughttomyself,thisisactuallyagoodpoem,fromthat
period,andthatwasit.HepublisheseverythingIgivehim.

We'vehadanexcerpttranslated.

It'sprobablyquiteeasytotranslate.It'salwaysjustthreewords.Itprobably
translateswellintoEnglish,EnglishandItalian,I'mnotsosureifFrenchwould

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work.It'sfrom1960.26yearsago.

Inthepassagechosenbythetranslators,onethemeisVerona.

Ohright,"SchaupltzeinVerona"(ScenesinVerona)isintheretoo,isit?Thatwas
actuallyaseparatepoem.Itcamefromabookcalled"EinladungnachVerona"
(InvitationtoVerona)editedbyWielandSchmied,andatthetimeIwasabigfanof
EzraPound,soIwroteakindofPoundpoemaboutVerona.Andthatwasprobably,
somewherearoundthen,yes,itwasaroundthesametime.Itmusthavebeenbefore
1960.Thirtyyearsago.

Isthelovespokenofinthispoemnotlinkedwiththefigureofthesister,notina
biographicalsensebutsomethinglikein"Korrektur"(Correction)?

WhatamIsupposedtosaytothat?Lovealwayshastodowitheverything.AndI'm
notmycharacters.I'dhavetohavekilledmyselfhundredsoftimesandbe
perversityincarnatefromfiveinthemorninguntiltenatnight.Whatapersonis
cannotbedescribed.Youcanonlydescribewhatyouhaveinyourhand.

Farbeitfrommetoconfuseyouwithyourcharacters.

No,no,wonderful.LikeIsaid,I'minthemood.Shortandtothepoint.

(AfriendofThomasBernhard'sentersthecoffeehouseandsitsdownatthetable
nexttoours.ThomasBernhardtellsherhehasspenta"terriblenight",butthathe
didmanagetogetafewhourssleepinspiteofthedecorationworkgoingoninhis
flat.)

Butthedecoratorsareonlythereduringtheday.

Ofcourse.Writersworkatnight.Itwouldneveroccurtoacraftsmantopickupthe
toolsofhistradeinthemiddleofthenight.

(AmanentersthecoffeehouseandgreetsThomasBernhard.Theyevoketheir
participationinasolidaritygalaorganizedbyVienneseartistsin1964insupportof
"Tschauner'sStegreiftheater".ThomasBernhardrecallsplayingthepartofa
gendarme.)

Youdeliberatelykeepyourdistancefromotherlivingwriters.

No,notdeliberatelyatall.Itcomesnaturally.Wherethere'snointerest,therecanbe
noinclination.

Sometimesyouhurlabuseatthemtoo,likeCanettiorHandkeforexample.

Idon'thurlabuseatanyoneatall.That'snonsense.Almostallwritersare
opportunists.Eithertheyaffiliatethemselveswiththerightorwiththeleft,joining
rankshereorthere,andsoon,andthat'showtheymakealiving.Andthat's
unpleasant,whyshouldn'tthatbesaid.Oneworkswithhisillnessandhisdeathand
winsprizes,andtheotherrunsroundinthenameofpeaceandisbasicallyanasty
stupidfellow,sowhat'sthebigdeal?

FromanonAustrianperspective,thiscomesasasurpriseinFrance,youare

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oftennamedinthesamebreathasHandke.

Well,thatbreathwillchange.Anewbreathwithcome.Buthabitslikethatlastfor
decades.They'reimpossibletoeradicate.Ifyouopenanewspapertoday,almostall
youreadaboutisThomasMann.He'sbeendeadthirtyyearsnow,andagainand
again,endlessly,it'sunbearable.Eventhoughhewasapettybourgeoiswriter,
ghastly,uninspired,whoonlywroteforapettybourgeoisreadership.Thatcould
onlyinterestthepettybourgeois,thekindofmilieuhedescribes,it'suninspiredand
stupid,somefiddleplayingprofessorwhotravelssomewhere,orafamilyin
Lbeck,howlovely,butit'snothingmorethansomeonelikeWilhelmRaabe.What
rubbishThomasMannchurnedoutaboutpoliticalmatters,really.Hewastotally
uptightandatypicalGermanpettybourgeois.Withagreedywife.

Forme,that'sthetypicalGermanwritercombination.Alwaysawomaninthe
background,beitMannorZuckmayer,alwaysmakingsurethesecharactersgetto
sitnexttotheheadofstate,ateveryidioticopeningofasculptureexhibitionora
bridge.Isthatwherewritersbelong?Thesearethepeoplewhoalwaysmakedeals
withthestateandthoseinpower,whoendupsittingattheirelbows.Thetypical
Germanlanguagewriter.Iflonghairisinfashion,thenhehaslonghair,ifit'sshort
hair,thenhisisshorttoo.Iftheleftisingovernment,herunstotheleft,ifit'sthe
right,herunsthatway,alwaysthesame.They'veneverhadanycharacter.Only
thosewhodiedyoung,mostly.Iftheydiedat18or24,well,atthatageit'snotso
hardtomaintainsomecharacter,thatonlygetshardlater.Yougetweak.Under25,
whennooneneedsmorethananoldpairoftrousers,whenyougobarefootand
contentyourselfwithagulpofwineandsomewater,it'snotsodifficulttohave
character.Butafterwards.Thentheyallhadnone.At40theywereallabsorbedinto
politicalparties,totallyparalysed.Thecoffeetheydrinkinthemorningispaidfor
bythestate.Andthebedtheysleepin,andtheholidaystheygoon,allpaidforby
thestate.Nothingoftheirownanymore.

DoyoubelievethereisanythingspecificallyAustrianaboutyourtexts?

Idon'tneedtobelieveit.I'mAustrian,soitgoeswithoutsaying.Notamatterof
believing.

CouldaGermanauthorwritethesameway?

Certainlynot.ThankGod.TheGermansareunmusical,it'ssomethingquite
different.Andit'snoticeable.Beforeyouevenopenthebookyounoticeit,evenin
thetitle,aquitedifferent...ithasatotallydifferentstinktoit.

Yourstyleissodistinctivethatithaspromptednumerouspastichesandparodies...

Iftheycanearnmoneythatwayandpayforasummerholiday,threedaysata
decentinn,unfortunatelytheymostlyonlygotoplaceswithMichelinstars,where
theyhavetopay2,000Schillingsforameal,Iwouldn'tbegrudgeanyonethatif
theyenjoythemselves.

Buthowdoessomethingnewlikethiscomeintobeingintheoldmaterialof
language?Aretheretraditionsthatonerefersto,evenifthatmeansgoingagainst
them?

Therearealwaystraditions,consciousandunconscious.Fromreadingandbeing

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alivesincechildhood,allthatcomesofitsownaccord.Andbecauseyou're
constantlythrowingoutwhatyoudon'tlikeorwhat'sbadfromthebeginning,
you'releftwithwhatyouwant.Whetherit'sstupidornotisanotherquestion.
Whetherornotit'stherightpath,nooneknows,everyindividualhastheirown
path,andforthatpersoneverypathistherightone.Andnowtherearefouranda
halfbillionpeople,Ithink,andfourandahalfbillionrightpaths.Themisfortuneof
humanbeingsisthattheydon'twanttotakethepath,theirown,theyalwayswantto
takeadifferentone.Strivingandstrugglingtowardssomethingotherthanwhatthey
themselvesare.Everyoneisagreatpersonality,whethertheypaintorsweepstreets
orwriteor...peoplealwayswantsomethingdifferent.That'sthemisfortuneofthe
world.

Yousometimesgivetheimpressionofbitingthehandthatfeeds,forexamplewhen
youdescribeHeideggerasa"weakmindedpreAlpinethinker"and...

Hedidn'tfeedme.Whyshouldhehavefedme?Buthe'sanimpossiblecharacter,
hehasneitherrhythmnoranythingelse.Helivedoffafewwriters,hecannibalised
them,tothelast,whatwouldhehavebeenwithoutthem?

Iwasthinkingoftheword"Lichtung"(clearing).

ThatwordexistedbeforeHeidegger,300and500yearsbefore.Hewasnothing,a
philistine,gross,nothingnew.He'saperfectexampleofsomeonewho
unscrupulouslyeatsallthefruitotherpeoplehavejarredandwhogorgeshimself,
thankGod,whichmakeshimsickandhebursts.Getsstomachache.

Youhavespokenofalove/haterelationshipwithAustria.Whatdoyoustilllove
here?

Love/haterelationship,thewordisselfexplanatory.

Itcontainstheelementof"love".

Probably.Love/hate?Oneistornbothways.That'sthebestimpetusyoucan
possiblyhaveinlife.Ifyouonlylove,you'relost,ifyouonlyhate,you'relosttoo.
Ifyoulikeliving,asIdo,thenyouhavetoliveinaperpetuallove/haterelationship
withallthings.It'sakindofbalancingact.Beingdirectlyattheirmercywouldbe
deadly.Ifyoulikeliving,youdon'twanttobedead.Everyonelikesliving,even
thosewhokillthemselves,excepttheynolongerhavetheopportunity.Because
theycannolongerbackout.(lookingatthetaperecorder:)It'sstillrunninganyway,
thedramaisrunning,drammagiocosa!

PoliticalrealityinAustriaissoprovocativeinitselfthatthere'snomorescopefor
provocation.

Itallfindsitwayintotheworksomehow.There'snorealneedtoworryaboutthis
either.Itjustflowsin,asthesayinggoes.Itmakesnosense,likehimoverthere,the
stupidsculptor,torunoutandshoutandputupastupidhorseandtalkaloadof
nonsense,primitivestuff,that'sshorttermimpact,untilthedayaftertomorrow.

YoumeanHrdlicka?

Yes,yes,whowasjusthere,hecomesinherefivetimesaday,heleftasIwas

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arriving,andnowhe'sback...eachtohisown.Poorfellow,shaveshishead,after
twoyearsheshaveseverythingoff,andthenheletsitgrowagainforthreeyears.
He'spoor.Itmakesnosense.Ifthatbecomesvisibleinyourwork,thenitlasts
longer.Well,Isupposeit'snoteasyforsculptors.Theyhavetokissthecity
councillors'assesotherwisetheygetnocommissions,hecan'tmakethingsandcast
themathomeinhislivingroom.That'sthedifficultthing.Writingiseasierbecause
youdon'tneedanythingoranyone.Youcanobserve,andthenyoudowhatyou
wantwiththeresults,onlyatypewriter,andiftimesgetreallyhard,justapencil.Or
aballpoint,youcangetoneforacoupleofschillings.

Amongotherthings,yournewbook"Auslschung"(Extinction)isabout...

Anextinction.

...theproblemoftheoldNazisinAustria.

Thereisagenuineproblemhere.Ifyouweretogosomewhereandsitdownand
listenabit,youcouldgetquiteoutragedifyouwantedto.Exceptthere'snopoint.
It'sthesameeverywhere.InFrancetoo.TheNazisaren'tonlyhere.Therearealso
NazisinEnglandandFranceandCroatiaandwhoknowswhereelse.Thereare
attractiveandunattractivepeople.Buttheunattractiveonesjusthappentobeinthe
majority.

Foryou,isNationalSocialismahistorictermorapersonalconcept?

That'sclearfromhistory.Nazi,everyoneknowswhatthatis.Jesus,everyoneknows
whatthatis,too.Christian.WhetheryousayChristianorNazi,theysoundroughly
thesameandthey'rebothabominable.

CriticshavesometimesdescribedyouasanantiEnlightenmentwriterwhodespises
humankind.

Lookatthepeoplewhowritethat.They'rejustvulgar,primitivefoolswithnotaste,
whohaven'tthefirstideaaboutwhattheydescribeandread.Noideawhatthey're
actuallydealingwith.Whenitgetshot,theytakeofftheirjackets,sitaround
sweatingwiththeirfatbelliesandbraces,totallyvulgar,drinkingbottleafterbottle,
fraternizingwithallandsundry.They'reavilemob.Whocareswhatthey'recalled.
Whetherit'sinGermanyor...well,theydon'thavepeoplelikethatthereanyway.

Whencriticsaccuseyouofprotofascisttendencies...

Fascist,Idon'tlikethat,theword,butI'vebeencalledeverything.ThethingsI've
beencalled.Communistorfascist,anarchist,everything.

What,inyourview,isaconversation?

Idon'tusuallyhavethem.Tomepeoplewhowanttohaveaconversationare
suspect,becausethatraisesparticularexpectationsthey'reunabletosatisfy.Simple
peopleareverygoodtotalkwith.Whentalkingissupposedtobecome
conversation,that'swhenthingsgetgruesome!Thatfineexpression"everything
underthesun."Itallgetsthrownintogetherandthenonepersonstirsthisway,the
otherstirsthat,andanunbearablestinkingturdcomesoutthebottom.Nomatter
whoitis.Therearecollectedconversations,hundredsofthem,booksfull.Entire

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publishinghousesliveoffthem.Likesomethingcomingoutofananus,andthenit
getssquashedinbetweenbookcovers.Thiswasn'taconversationeither.

Yes,ofcoursenot.

It'salways:"you'vebeenlisteningtoaconversation"andsoon,andatthatmoment,
everyonewhoheardithasalreadyforgottenit.Becauseitwasnothing.There'sthe
famous"Nocturnes"series.Theysitthereforanhourandahalf,there'sa
philosopherandapseudophilosopher,ormostlybothpseudophilosophers,one
wearingapolonecksweaterandtheotheratie,doesn'treallymatterbecause
everythingiscontrivedandstupid,andtheyjusttalkconstantlyandtalkandtalk.If
youlookintheSddeutscheZeitungattheamountofinterviewsthey'vepublished
overthepastthreedecades,noonegivesadamnaboutasinglewordofallthese
conversationsandbooks.

It'salljustfortheworkersatthepaperfactory,sotheyhavesomethingtodo,which
mightmakesomesense.Becausetheyhaveaterriblelifeanywayandlosealltheir
limbs,at50mostofthemhavelostalegorfivefingers.Papermachinesarecruel.
Atleastithassomemeaning,thefamilycangetsomethingextra.Ilivenexttotwo
paperfactories,soIknowhowitis.Intenyearsyou'llseehowstupiditallwas.But
itallhelpsyougetahead,givesyousomethingtolivefrom,andlifeinvolvesdoing
aloadofnonsense.Lifeconsistsofonelongsuccessionofnonsense,alittlebitof
sense,butmostlynonsense.Nomatterwho.Beitgreat,supposedlygreatpeople,all
theusualnames,meincluded,Cioran,aphorists.Allpatheticandleadstonothing
buttheend.Youcansitathome,putyourbooksontheshelf,andwhenyoulookat
them,youthink:"Sad".Butyoustillkeepchurningitout,likeyougetintothehabit
ofdrinkingacupofcoffeeinthemorning,ortea.Teaissmarter,becauseyouwork
less.Thesameappliestowriting.Youbecomeaddicted.Writingisadrug,too.

Hasillnessbeenadrivingforcebehindyourwriting?

Yes,perhaps,possibly.Sinceit'sbeentherewithmethroughoutmylife.Andasyou
cansee,somepeoplearealwayscriticallyillbuttheygoonlivingforever.Forall
thesepeopleit'salwaysbeenbeneficial.Anillnessisalwaysaformofcapital.
Everyillnessyousurviveisagreatstory,becausethere'snowayanyonecansteal
yourthunderwithsomethingsimilar.Onlyyoushouldn'tcountonit,becauseone
timeit'llgowrong.Althoughitdoesn'tmatter,becauseyou'renolongeraroundto
notice.It'smoneyinthebank.

Inyourlatestbooks,thesenseofmenacehasreceded,andtheprevailing
atmosphereisoneofquasimathematical,geometriccheerfulness.

Yougetolder,thingschange.Whichiswhythere'snoneedtoworryaboutachange
oftheme,becausethatcomesnaturally,withtheexperiencesyouhave.Astupid
writer,astupidpainterisalwayslookingformotifs,althoughallheactuallyneedsis
himself,tofollowhisownlife.Healwayswantstoremainthesame,butneverto
writethesame.Andthat'sthekey,ifthere'sakeyatall.Butifyouapproachitlike
someonesellingtrousers,andassomethingtomakealivingoff,thenthat'swhat
you'llendupdoing.

Yousayyouliketalkingtosimplepeople.

It'salwaysapleasure.

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AnddoyoufindsuchsimplepeopleinVienna?

I'vegotsimplepeopleathomeatthemoment.That'smostagreeable,evenifthey
domakeamess.Theirmindshaven'tbeenruinedbyeducation.

Butyouhavetopaythemtocometoyourhouse.

Idon'tneedtopaymysimplepeople.IhavehundredsofthemwhereIliveinthe
countryandwhereverItravel.They'renotalwayseasytostomacheither.Youneed
both.It'simportanttomasterasmuchaspossible.Youhavetobehereandbethere.
Ifyouonlyfrequentonesectionofsocietyit'sstupid.Youendupstunted.Youneed
totakeinandcastoffasmuchaspossibleallthetime.Mostpeoplemakethe
mistakeofremainingwithinasinglecasteandclass,onlymixingwithbutchers
becausethey'rebutchers,oronlywithbricklayersbecausethey'rebricklayers,or
withlabourersbecausethey'relabourers,orcountsbecausethey'recounts,or
kings...

Orwritersbecausethey'rewriters?

Well,I'mmyown,soI'venoneedanyway.Noonecanteachmeortellme
anything,soI'venoneedtogotoanyone.Becausepeopleingeneralarefalseand
twisted,Igoelsewhere.Idon'tneedanywriter.Sittingdownwithsomeonewhere
there'snothingbutenvyandresentmentfromtheoutset,I'venointerestinthat,soI
don'tdealwithwriters.

Thankyou...

What?Everyonelivesuntiltheydie.Andagreatdealhappensinbetween.Butfor
mostpeopleit'sofnointerest.Mostlyonlyforthepersonlivingit.Thetruthisthat
eachperson,evenifheisinterestedinothers,isinterestedonlyinhimself.It'sall
aboutindirectbenefits.It'sthesameeverywhere,whateveritis,children'svillages,
theSahel,hungerinNicaragua.MisterOrtegaputsonjustasmuchofaself
servingtheatreactasMisterReagan,whicheverwayyoulookatit.Peopleonlydo
thingstheythinkwillhelpthemgetaheadandkeepgoing.Evenifyoubecomea
nunoramonk,that'sallyouhaveinmind,youhavenochoice.Infact,ifyouwant
tobeamonkandserve,thatwillmakeyouespeciallyghastlyandmisanthropic.
That'sthewayitis,Ibelieve.Withfaith.Asitwere.

ThomasBernhard'sworkshavebeenextensivelytranslatedintoEnglish.Herea
bibliography.Hismajornovelsinclude"OldMasters.AComedy,""Yes,"
"Extinction,"and"Gargoyles."

Theinterview,conductedin1986,originallyappearedinGermanintheAutumn
2006issueofKultur&Gespenster.Ashorterversionwaspublishedinthe
FrankfurterAllgemeineSonntagszeitungonOctober22,2006.

WernerWgerbauerteachesintheGermandepartmentattheUniversityofNantes
inFrance.

Translation:NicholasGrindell.

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signandsight.comlet'stalkeuropean

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