INTERVIEW

Paul Findley:Congressand the

Pro Israel Lobby
Paul Findleyservedas a RepublicanCongressman fromIllinoisfortwenty-two
yearsbeforelosinghisseatbya narrow marginin 1982 to a candidate
heavily
backedbytheAmerican-Israel PublicAffairsCommittee (AIPAC). Congress-
manFindley recentlycompleted a book,They Dare to Speak Out (Westport,
Conn.: Lawrence HillandCompany), inwhichhedocuments howthepro-Israel
to
lobbyhelps shapeimportant S.
aspectsofU. foreign policy,as wellas howit
influences
congressional, and presidential
senatorial, elections.JPS interviewed
Congressman Findleyon 6 September 1985.

JPS:Yourbook,TheyDare to SpeakOut, hasbeenon theWashingtonPost

listforseveralweeks.How do you explainthebook'stremendous
bestseller
success?

Findley:Frankly,itsarrivalon thatlistis a surpriseand a pleasantone. I

receivedsuchcandidrejectionsin myquestforan agentand a publisher
thatI expectedenormous, continuingobstaclesin marketing thebookonce
it wasout. These stillexistin somepartsofthecountry today,fivemonths
afterthebookmadeitsappearanceon themarket.In theWashington area,
moststoresnow seemto have it and someare displaying it prominently.

JPS: Isn'ttheWashington
area,fromyourpointof view,themostimportant
area?

Yes,becauseit isfromthiscitythatmuchofthecommentary
Findley: about
and aboutoursocietyemanates.It'sthepoliticalcapitalofthe
publicaffairs
 FINDLEY 105

world,ina sense,andifI hadtochoosea cityinwhichmybookwouldbe

wellread,itwouldbe thisoneoveranyother.LastnightI wasatNational
AirportandI found mybookon display in thewindow ofthebookstore in
thecenter ofthemainterminal. I thinkthatisa breakthroughofimmense
importance. I hopethismeansthatotherairport bookstoreswillbeginto
handleit as well.
Youaskedwhythebookhasdonesowellinthiscity.Thereareinterest
groupsherethatsympathize andsupport myendeavors. I'msurethatsome
ofthemhavebought books,butI can'tbelievethatthatsortofsupportive
wouldsustaina bookon thebestsellerlistall theseweeks.Last
activity
nighta manfromUtah,a Mormon, toldme thathe had boughtone
hundred ofthebooksandhadgivenoneto eachofthetwelveapostles of
theMormon church.Eachofthemnowhasa copyfrom thatprominent
individual,and he's giventhe remaining copiesto othersof a similar
standing. I thinka lot of thathas occurred herein Washington. A
newspaperman thatI neverheardoftoldmethathehadbought sixcopies
togivetofriends. Thatprocessis boundtostimulate in thebook.
interest

JPS:Willa paperedition out?

becoming

Findley:I hopeso. I've repeatedly encouraged thepublisher to do so. I

stipulatedinthecontract originally thathe couldnotdo so inlessthansix
months afterthepublication ofthehardcover without mypermission. I
didn'twantthetwotocompete witheachother.Abouta month agoI sent
hima letter releasinghimfrom anysuchobligation andurging himto go
ahead.He's reluctant to at thisstage,although I don'tthinkhe has any
hesitation in the longterm.He feelsthe momentum of sales of the
hardcover is goodandshouldn't be interruptedwiththeintroduction ofa
paperback.
Thereareprofessorswhohavetoldmeoftheirdesiretohavethebook
onthereading listfortheirclasses.I think
thisalmost requires a paperback
as opposed toa hardcover.I alsoheardaboutan individual whoisplanning
to sponsora large-scale contestamongcollegestudents, in whichthe
contestants wouldwritereviews ofmybook.The reviews wouldthenbe
judgedbya panelofscholars. Paperbacks wouldhavetobe availableifthat
projectistosucceed.Therewillbe a paperback edition;it'sjusta matterof
time.

JPS:Do youhavea senseofhowwellthebookisselling

elsewhere?
106 JOURNAL
OF PALESTINESTUDIES

Findley:Onlyby totalsales.The publisher placedan orderfor10,000

additionalbooks,whichbrought the totalorderup to 32,000.Of the
32,000,twoweeksagohe had about5,000left.So he'salready thinking
aboutanother printing
beyond the32,000.
At a dinnerlastnight,somepeoplefrom Pittsburghtoldmethatthe
bookstoresin Pittsburgh
arefinally
displayingthebook.Somewomenare
planningto picketone storewhichdoesnothavethebook.Peoplewho
havea keeninterest in MiddleEastern affairsareseeingthisbookas a
rallying
point.Thatwillinevitably
helpsales.I don'tthinkithasreally
had
muchofa breakthrough on theWestcoast,butthewaythings aregoing
I'minclined
elsewhere, tothink thebreakthrough willeventually
occur.It's
Whenwefirst
astonishing. thoughtaboutthebook,I thought itwouldbe
greatifwe'dsomehow market 10,000books.

that
JPS:Younoted youhadsuchdifficulties
infinding
a publisher.
Whywasthis
particular
publisher totakea chance
willing withyourbook?

Findley:He'sa veteran
publisher. He describes
himself as a 1930ssocialist,
he's causeoriented,and he's a greatbelieverin civillibertiesand free
speech.I thinkhe was attracted to mybookbecauseits themeis free
speech.His wifeis Jewish,so no onecouldthinkofhimas anti-Semitic.
He's carrieda variety
ofbookson wide-ranging topics,so hispublishing
houseisnotidentifiedas a pro-AraborMiddleEastern publishing houseat
all. Andhe'swellrespected.Hisbiggestsuccesses
sofarhavebeena couple
ofbooksthatsoldabout30,000copies.Mineis climbing to thatpoint.

JPS:TheNewYorkTimesandtheWashington
Postboth
reviewed book.
your
Whatdidyouthink
ofthereviews?

I waspleasedthereviews
Findley: appeared.I didn'texpectpositive
reviews;
nevertheless,I wasdisappointed,
especiallyintheNewYorkTimesreview.
I thought itwasa verybrusquedismissal
whichdidn'tdealwiththetheme
ofthebookat all. The WashingtonTimescarried a review justthreedays
ago.Again,itwasa negativereviewandthefinallinewasthatPaulFindley
isa poorloser.Thatwasa themethatcreptintobothoftheothernegative
reviews. theycansayaboutthebook,I guessI fared
Ifthat'stheworst rather
well,considering trendofbothpapers.
thegeneral

JPS:Howdoyouanswer thatyou're
thecharge a poorloser?
 FINDLEY 107

Findley:
Anyone whohasreadthebookandis openminded can'tpossibly
reachthatconclusion becauseI appearin thetextonlyin an introductory
way.Myexperience, although illustrative
oftheproblem, is nottheheart
ofthebook.It is notan autobiography in anysense.It is aboutAmerican
societyand howin all of itsaspects-notjusta congressman fromthe
Midwest running forelection,butthewholeoftheCongress, thewholeof
theexecutive branch,thewholeofacademia,thewholeofmainstream
America andsuburbia-it hasbeenaffected lobby.I knewitwas
byIsrael's
inevitablethatI wouldbe accusedofsourgrapes becausetheIsraelilobby
oftentriesto disctedititscritics,
to attackmotives insteadofarguments.
Frankly,I havebeenneither surprisednoraggrieved byitat all. I expected
a muchharsher attackthanI'veencountered.
Whenpeoplereadthebook,theycan'tpossibly conclude thatit'ssour
grapes.
Norcan theyconcludethatit'santi-Jewish. I hadthetextofthe
bookreadcarefully at various stagesduring itspreparation bytwoJewish
friends-one of themexperienced in Israelilobbyactivity. I wantedto
makesurethatitwasstripped ofanyaccidental phrasesthatmight convey
theemotion ofsourgrapes oranti-Jewish feeling.

JPS:Couldyouvery
briefly
outline
themainthemes
ofthebook?

Findley:Ourpoliticalsystem is seriously
handicapped bytheabsenceof
unfettereddiscussion ofwhatis bestforUnitedStatesMiddleEastpolicy.
The Israelisideis theonlyone thatis seriously considered.That'sa very
sweeping statement, butit'saccurate. Thatis one ofthethemesof the
book.
Another themeis thatdiscourse hasbeenhandicapped principallyby
theextravagant andreckless useoftheaccusation ofanti-Semitism. Our
haspermitted
society thelobbyto redefine thetermto itsadvantage. It is
an accusationthatbringsdisdain andhorrortojustabouteveryone. No one
wantsto be accusedofbeinganti-Semitic, and theaccusation has been
developed intothemostodiousattackthatcanbe madeon an American
citizen.The lobbyhaseffectively thetermso thatit implies
redefined not
justhostilityto all Jews-which is thewaythedictionary definesit-but
alsotoquestioning thepoliciesofthegovernment ofIsrael.Fora whilethe
redefinitionwas largelylimitedto equatinganti-Semitism withanti-
Zionism-anabsurdparallel,but one whichis, nevertheless, widely
accepted:if you'reagainstthe Zionistsyou'reanti-Semitic. Now, it's
equatedwithcriticism ofIsrael.Letmegivean example.
108 JOURNAL
OF PALESTINESTUDIES

Bob Dornan,a Republicancongressman fromCalifornia,tookthefloor

a few monthsago and criticizedcertainunnamedNew York liberal
Democrats.I don'thave his precisewordsbut,in effect, he accusedthem
of beingmoreinterested in providingfighterplanesto the stateof Israel
than to our own military forces.He made thatcommentbecauseliberal
New YorkDemocratsoftenvote to cut military spendingforthiscountry
but, like the restof theircolleagues,alwayssupportmilitary spendingfor
Israel. Because Doman castigatedhis colleaguesin thatfashion,he was
describedon the public recordby BarneyFrank,a Democratfromthe
Bostonarea,as anti-Semitic. It'sabsurd,buttheaccusationwas madeand
nobodychallengedit.
The lobby'stheirmost powerfulinstrument of intimidationis this
recklessuse ofthechargeofanti-Semitism. That'snotjustmyconclusion;
GeorgeBall sharesitand I'msuremanyothersdo as well.One ofthethings
thatI tryto do in mymodest,limitedwayis to respondwheneverI see what
I perceiveto be a misusein publicprintof the termanti-Semitism. If
someoneis quotedin thatway,I writeto the publicationas well as the
personinvolvedto makea case thattheyhave misusedtheterm.I thinkif
otherswould join me in that endeavor,theycould help to blunt the
intimidating practicesof Israel'slobby.

JPS:Do youthinkthatin thenearfuture moreopendebatewillbecome

possible
ofU. S. policyin theMiddleEast?
on thequestion

Findley: on CapitolHill orwithintheexecutivebranch.I think

It'sunlikely
therewassomeimprovement in themediaduringtheLebanonWar. It was
a turning pointfora numberofnewspeople. I detecta greaterwillingness
to give balancedreporting and to give a balance to viewpointsin op-ed
columns.Unfortunately, exactlythe oppositetrendhas occurredin the
governmental system.Thanks substantially to the defeatof Senators
CharlesPercyof Illinois,WalterHuddlestonof Kentucky,Congressman
Paul (Pete) McCloskeyofCalifornia andme,thereis lessdebateon Capitol
Hill than everbefore-and that'snot sayingmuchbecausethere'snever
been muchopen discussionof Israel.Now there'sno one on Capitol Hill
whofeelsit'sworthwhile to speakout. All areconvincedthey'llpaya price
if theydo. They look at what happenedto Percy,theylook at what
happenedto Congressman Nick Rahall whenhe offered his amendment,
and theysay,"What'sthepoint?"

JPS:Couldyoudescribe toRahall?
whathappened
 FINDLEY 109

Findley: Rahalloffered an amendment inMay 1984tocut$250 millionfrom

theappropriation billforIsraelbecausethatsumwasearmarked to be spent
in Israelto helpdeveloptheLavi fighter plane industry there.The Lavi is
now receivingU.S. supportamounting to aboutone billiondollarsin aid
fromtheU.S. Treasury. In hisamendment, he soughtto takeoutonlythe
$250 millionwhichwas earmarked in thependingbill.
I thinkhe thoughthe had an amendment thatwouldget substantial
supportand he had reasonto. Afterall, it involvedunion labor jobs,
becausethe Lavi is intendedto competein theworldmarketwithfighter
planesproducedbyU.S. industry. It involvesnationalsecurity; it involves
our military.Nevertheless,he got less than 10 percentof the vote:
thirty-nine votesplushis own. The amendment was defeateddespitewhat
wouldseem to be the enormousnationalistic appeal builtinto it. It was
defeatedforjustone reason:the enormouspowerofthe lobby.
In thewakeofthevote,thethirty-nine whovotedwithhimgotnothing
but complaintsfromback home. They got no applause.They got com-
plaintsfrompro-Israel constituentswho objectedbecausetheyhad cast a
votethattheythoughtwas againstthe interests of Israel.
That episodeillustrates severalthings.Firstofall, thanksto themedia,
theAmericanpeoplereallyknewnothingaboutthe issue.You can search
thefilesand have difficulty a singlelinereported
finding byanynewspaper
aboutRahall'samendment.It also illustrates the powerful momentum on
Capitol Hill in supportof whateverIsraelwants,no matterwhat other
considerations mightbe involvedin an issue. If it's forIsrael, it goes
through. It also illustrates
theeffectiveness ofthelobbynetwork. Theycan
tapkeypeoplein everycongressional districtofthecountry, whetherthere
is a largeJewishpopulationor not. Theycan get a fewqualitytelephone
callsmadeto members on veryshortnoticeeitherto protest, praise,orurge
a courseofaction.It's a veryinstructive episode.

JPS: How do yourespond

to theargumentthattheIsraellobbyis justlikeany
otherlobby?
How doesitdiffer
fromotherlobbies?

It differs
Findley: fromotherlobbiesin thatit is an instrument ofa foreign
government. It differs
in tactics.I realizethatsome lobbiesare givento
ratherdisreputabletacticsat times.Lobbiesnaturallygo aftertheirenemies
and tryto elect theirfriends.However,I don'tknowof any lobbythat
publishesbooks-enemieslists-intendedto intimidate journalists,
profes-
sors,newsmediapeople,peoplein publiclife,and retireddiplomatsfrom
speakingout on the MiddleEast. The Anti-Defamation Leaguepublishes
110 JOURNAL
OF PALESTINESTUDIES

sucha book.So doestheAmerican4Israel PublicAffairsCommittee.I know

of no otherlobbythathas a networkon the campusesthroughout the
UnitedStatesandtrainscollegestudents in methodstokeepcriticsofIsrael
offcampus,or instructsstudents
in howto harassspeakerswhodo comeon
campus.I know of no otherlobbythat has been so overwhelming, so
intimidatingas to eliminatevirtuallyall competition.There are many
lobbies,butall ofthemfacea countervailinglobby.They'repitchedagainst
each other.Lobbiesare veryimportant in our governmental structure. I
don'twantto see Israel'slobbydisappear.It has a rightto operate,but it
shouldbe requiredto play by decentstandardsof conduct.One of the
methodsor tacticsit useswithgreateffectivenessis therecklessuse of the
chargeofanti-Semitism.

JPS:How doesthislobbyintimidate
congressmen?
Whatis theprocessinvolved?

Findley:It operatesat all levels.At a verypubliclevel, it will focusits

enormous, diverseresources againsta singlecandidate,likeCharlesPercy,
and makean exampleof him,or of me, or of Paul McCloskey.Thomas
Dine, who headsAIPAC, is thesourceoftheestimatethat90 percentof
the moneythat came to my last two opponentscame frompro4Israel
sources.He mentioned that,I'm sure,in orderto warnotherpublicfigures
thatiftheytamper withthelobby,iftheygo againstitsobjectives,theycan
expect the same treatment.They are readyto pounce on and defeat
whohavea 99 percentrecordofsupporting
legislators Israel.Theywant100
percent.Theyselecttheirtargets carefully,ofcourse.TheydecidedthatI
was vulnerable;theydecidedthatPercywas vulnerable.They don'twaste
theirmoneyon electionstheycan'tpossiblywin.
Those whomightthinkofchallenging thelobbysee thisrecordand shy
awayfromanychallengeto the lobby.Those whovotedforNick Rahall's
amendment areprobably notgoingto do thatsortofthingagain.Afterall,
theydidn'twinanyvotesthrough their"buyAmerica"vote;theyjustgot
trouble.I quotea numberofpeoplein mybook,peopleon the Hill, who
saythatPercy'sexperience, myexperience, andMcCloskey'sexperienceare
intimidating to all candidatesforpublicoffice.
The lobby'sinfluence worksin manyotherwaysas well.It has itsfriends
in everyoffice of any importance on CapitolHill, as well as elsewherein
government, especiallyin the executivebranch.These people feel an
obligationto Israelwhichothersreallycan'tunderstand. Theyfeelit'stheir
I
duty, suppose, to transmit
secret U.S. data to thelobby.This happensall
thetime.No congressman in a groupofsixor eightcan feelsurethatwhat
 FINDLEY 111

he sayswillbe keptin confidence fromthelobby.As a result,evenin

privateconversations,no congressman fromtheHouseorSenatefeelsfree
tospeakhismindontheMiddleEast.Ifhedoes,hehastoassume thelobby
willhearaboutitthenextday.
Sometimes thereaction thanthat.I citein mybookan
is evenfaster
experience inwhicha colleague ofminepassedthewordtothelobbythat
I was thinking aboutan amendment to the aid bill and withina few
minutes, twoothermembers ofthecommittee hadcallsfrom theirhome
districts
frompro4Israel constituentswhohad been informed aboutthis
"FindleyAmendment" andwereworried aboutitandwanted a report.The
congressmen cametomeasking questions.
Itwasa dramatic of
illustration
theeffectivenessofthelobbyingetting information,passingitoutquickly,
andgetting a reaction
from theprecinctsveryrapidly.The lobbyhelpsits
friends;and it has almostinstant accessto members of the Houseand
Senate.One ofthelobbyists toldmecandidly thathe canwalkin andsee
justaboutanycongressman hewants.No otherlobbyists thatI knowofcan
do that.Mostlobbyists figure luckyiftheycan getin to see two
they're
a day.Notso withIsrael'slobby.
legislators

JPS:Howdoyourespond tothecharge
that
Americanpolicy theMiddle
regarding
Eastis-ifnottotally
runbyJewish orpro-Israel
forcesinthiscountry-at
least
is influenced
tosuchan extentbythemthatonecansaythatitis almost100
percent of,ornotinconflict
insupport Israel's
with, policy?
official

I talkedto DonaldMcHenry
Findley: on thephonea fewweeksago.He's
a careerpublicservant,a foreignserviceofficer
who servedas Jimmy
ambassador
Carter's totheUN. He toldmethatthesimpleandsadfactis
thattheUnitedStatestodayis unableto pursueitsowninterestsin the
MiddleEast.That'sa profoundanddisturbing butitcomesfrom
statement,
an unimpeachable source.He knowsthefacts.

JPS:Howlongcanthisgoonwithout
itsbeing
challenged?

Findley:It couldleadus intoan awfulsituation.

We'vehadsomenarrow
escapesalready. We haveonethousand U.S. troopson theborder
between
Egyptand Israelrightnow.They'vebeenthereforyears,and they'llbe
thereindefinitely.We lostnearlythreehundred Marinesin Lebanon-
deathsthatwouldnothaveoccurred had it notbeenforIsrael'smilitary
adventurism in thatcountry.
112 JOURNAL
OF PALESTINESTUDIES

That regionhas themakings ofanotherVietnam,orevena muchlarger

conflictinvolving eventhesuperpowers. Ifwe continueourpresentcourse,
allowinga small state in the regionto controlpublic discoursein this
country, in effect
decidewhatU.S. policywillbe, we'reputtingourselves
in thehandsofforeigners who couldeasilylead us intoa terriblewar.
How longcan it go on? I don'tthinkanyonecan answerthat.Myhope
is thatmybookwillhelpbreaktheice. I hopeitwillbe readbymanypeople
in thiscountry,butI also hope it willencourageothersto writebooksand
speak out. I'm an optimistand I believeit's possiblethat the courseof
eventscan be changed,thattheAmericanpeoplecan be informed about
what'sgoingon. If theyare informed, I have no doubtthattherewillbe
decisivepoliticalactionin thiscountry to bringabouta change.

JPS: Therehave beencomments to theeffect

thatyourbookmighthave a
negative,
unintended
result:namely,thatitwouldshowtowhatextentthelobby
is powerful,
orwhatitis capableofachieving,
andin thatwayintimidate
people
and thereby
service
itsends.

Findley:On the humorousside, a Jewishcongressman was outraged-not

becausehisnameappearedin thebookbutbecauseitdidnot.Thosewhom
I mentionedas effective spokesmenforIsraelcan use thatpublicityas a
meansofraisingmoneyforthenextcampaign;aboutthatI have no doubt.
Butthelobbyis nottenfeettall.It getsmorehorsepower outofa fewpeople
in thiscountry thananylobbyin history.
Is theanswerto thatto letit continueon itscourse?I thinkthatwould
be the worstof all possibilities.Will my book discouragepeople from
meetingthischallenge?I thinknot.The factis thathardlyanyoneis taking
on the challengetoday.So whatis reallyto be lost?To the contrary, I
receivephone calls and letters-nota greatfloodof them-but a steady
streamfrompeoplewho are astonished bytherevelations in thebook and
wantto knowwhattheycan do aboutit.
We need to facethe truth,whetherit hurtsor not, and relyupon the
abidinggoodsenseand resourcefulness oftheAmericanpeopleto meetthat
challenge when they'reaware of it. But as AdmiralThomasMoore said
when I interviewed him, the Americanpeople todaydon't knowwhat's
goingon. He said iftheyhad anyidea of thegripthislobbyhas on their
government, they'driseup in arms.I believethere'sa lot oftruthin what
he said; not thatthey'dliterallytakearms,butthey'driseup and makea
change. So I have never had any doubtsaboutthe importance of going
ahead withthisbook.
 FINDLEY 113

I.F. Stonetoldmein an interviewthathe wasafraidmybookmight

leadtoan increaseinanti-Semitism.
ButI didmybesttowritethebookin
a fashionso as tominimize
thatdanger. ifpeople
It wouldbe unfortunate
tookouttheirvengeance on all Jews.ManyJewsopposecertainIsraeli
policies.Manyhavegravereservationsaboutwhat'sgoingon.

JPS:Whataboutthepotential
oftheArablobby,
ortheArab-American
lobby?

It has greatpotential,
Findley: butit doesn'thavetheinfluencetodayit
couldhave.I am convinced thata relatively
smallnumber ofmotivated
American citizens
couldcounterbalancethelobby.Itwouldtakeonlya few
thousandofthem,scattered aroundthecountry-peoplewhoarewilling to
givetocandidates,tokeeptheheaton them,torunforoffice themselves,
ifneedbe. Forexample, ifthethirty-nine
peoplewhovotedforRahall's
amendment had received eventhreeor fourphonecallsor letters
from
homesaying, suregladyouvotedforthatamendment,"
"Terrific, itwould
havetakenthestingoutofthecomplaints theygot.Buttheydidn'tget
praise.
The othercomment I have is thatI don'tfeelAmericans of Arab
ancestryhaveanygreater obligationto takeon thiscausethanpeopleof
ScottishorIrishancestry
likemyself.Thisis an Americanissue,andall of
ushavea stakein it.We shouldn't leaveitonlyto thosewithethnicties
to theMiddleEastto resolve.