Andrew Gilligan Phone Interview

BBC NEWS 24

4`h June 2003 at 0922

Presenter The leader of the Commons, John Reid, has strongly denied that the government

misled the public over Iraq, and has accused rogue elements in the security services of

conspiring against Tony Blair An unnamed intelligence officer has told a BBC

journalist that the government probably exaggerated the threat posed by Saddam

Hussem, m order to justify the war, but Dr Reid questioned the sources on the story

Joining me on the phone now, is that Journalist, our defence correspondent Andrew

Gilligan

Andrew, m trying to discredit your sources, John Reid says "one individual, unnamed,

anonymous, uncorroborated official, who is m some way connected with the

intelligence service ." What can you tell us about your source9

AG~ Well, Downing Street themselves told The Times that the information he gave me

must have come from a quote. "fairly high level figure" . He is indeed high level, and

over the last six months, he's one of four people m senior positions to express concern

tome about the nususe of intelligence material by Number Ten I mean, Downumg

Street has what you might call "form" on this.

Presenter- To what extent are they "rogue elements" as John Reid calls them9

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AG: I think he would laugh out loud at the idea that he's a rogue element I mean, let's not

forget here that this story has also been corroborated by Claire Short, and I'm curious

how she and Robin Cooke fit into this alleged plot I mean, are they m league with

these rogue spooks as well?

Presenter What do you think the motive is of these so-called "rogue elements" is Is it anti-

government, or is it just to try and, as they would see it, to set the record snratght9

AG Well I am sure they are not rogue elements, I am sure they speak for a large number of

people m the intelligence services and the wider intelligence community I think they

do feel that their work has been kind of "overcooked" by Downing Street, and as I

say, this isn't the first time they felt that. I mean, m February Mr Blair claimed

there's a link between Saddam and A1 Qaeda, there is no evidence for one, and

several newspapers were briefed, and I was briefed, that there was no evidence by the

intelligence services, I was even leaked a document . We also remember the famous

"dodgy dossier", that was in February, that was presented as being partly based on

intelligence sources and it turned out to have been copied off the mternet, so there's,

you know there's a lot of concern m the intelligence services about that and about this

and about this episode with the with the original dossier m September, as well

Presenter Now, trust between the government and the intelligence services is vital Has it

broken down?

AG . Well I think, I mean I don't see how this statement by Dr . Reid is actually going to do

anything to reduce the level of concern and disquiet that there is in the intelligence

services' about the government's handling of the relationship, and I think it's really

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 extraordinary, I mean it's unprecedented, I mean it's the kind of thing you find m an

airport paperback and it's being said by a serving cabinet minister

Presenter Andrew Gilligan, thank you (END)