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FrHilarion Heagy
December 31, 2018 at 11:34 AM ·

“What almost always passes for ‘Orthodox theology’ among English- YOUR GAMES MORE
speaking Orthodox these days is actually just a branch of the larger
Orthodox picture. Indeed, it tends sometimes to be rather sectarian.
The Orthodox Church is an ancient castle, as it were, of which only two or
three rooms have been much in use since about 1920. These two or three 1973 Plymouth Cuda
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rooms were furnished by the Russian émigrés in Paris between the two $20,000 · Shelter Island, NY
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World Wars. This furniture is heavily neo-Palamite and anti-Scholastic. It Jacob, Garrett, Jonathan, …
relies heavily on the Cappadocians, Maximus, and Gregory Palamas (who
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are good folks, or course). Anything that does not fit comfortably into that
model is dismissed as “Western” and even non-Orthodox.
Alan Alldredge
Consequently, one will look in vain in that theology for any significant
contribution from the Alexandrians, chiefly Cyril, and that major Antiochian,
Allan Poe Bona Redo…
Chrysostom. When these are quoted, it is usually some incidental point on
which they can afford to be quoted.
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Now I submit that any ‘Orthodox’ theology that has so little use for the two $1,000 · East Hampton, NY
major figures from Antioch and Alexandria is giving something less than the Anthony Hudson
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Likewise, this popular neo-Palamite brand of Orthodoxy, though it quotes Anthony Shinoda
Damascene when it is convenient, never really engages Damascene’’s
manifestly ‘Scholastic’ approach to theology. English (US) · Español · Ben Ruby
Much less does it have any use for the other early Scholastic theologians, Português (Brasil) · Français (France) ·
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such as Theodore the Studite and Euthymus Zygabenus. There is no Braxton Ituriel Jr.
recognition that Scholasticism was born in the East, not the West, and that
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There is also no explicit recognition that the defining pattern of Orthodox Facebook © 2019
Christology was formulated in the West before Chalcedon. Pope Leo’’s Catherine Mikiten
distinctions are already very clear in Augustine decades before Chalcedon.
Yet, Orthodox treatises on the history of Christology regularly ignore
Augustine.
Augustine tends to be classified as a ‘Scholastic,’ which he most certainly
was not.
But Western and Scholastic are bad words with these folks.
In fact, however, Augustine and the Scholastics represent only other rooms
in the larger castle.
For this reason I urge you, as you can, to read in the Orthodox sources that
tend to get skipped in what currently passes for ‘Orthodoxy.’ For my part, I
believe the Russian émigré theology from Paris, which seems profoundly
reactionary and anti-Western, is an inadequate instrument for the
evangelization of this country and the world. I say this while gladly
recognizing my own debt to Russian émigré theology.” - Father Patrick
Henry Reardon (Antiochian Orthodox)

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Phillip Calington Interesting. The Paris based Russian emigree


theology has lately been seen in some circles as Liberal and too
inspired by western theology - even going as far as to call it
unorthodox. I myself try to keep a more balanced view as I currently
do my PhD at St. Serge in Paris ( )........
6
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FrHilarion Heagy Phillip Calington What's your opinion of


Bulgakov?
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Phillip Calington FrHilarion Heagy I haven't read too much of


him, so I can't make a clear judgement. But from what I have
seen some of his writings are problematic to say the least,
thinking about the Sophia. The Paris theologians are in a
strange spot as most of them were pro ecumenists and so in
some circles they are automatically rejected and judged more
harshly then they should be perhaps - I'm not taking a position Suggested Pages See All
on this, just thinking out loud.
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1/5/2019 (5) “What almost always passes for ‘Orthodox... - FrHilarion Heagy

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Search Daniel Greeson I Bulgakov for the reasons Balthasar
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Jonathan Vladimir Howry You can find both trends of the


Paris school alive and well in contemporary Orthodox
debates; hence the undertones of anti-asceticism and YOUR GAMES MORE

universalism (a la Berdiaev) vs. neopalamism (a la Florovsky).


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Daniel Greeson be still my heart...
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Alan Alldredge
Tony Dragani Yes, this is very true.
In many cases, what is called "Orthodox theology" today is actually a
Allan Poe Bona Redo…
reactionary anti-westernism that somewhat removed from the
fullness of patristic teaching.
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Daniel Greeson I would temper this a bit. yes - there is anti- Anthony Shinoda
Westernism, but many of their moves, emphasis, etc. are
broadly Nouvelle Theologie moves and in deep dialogue with
that movement...besides the liturgical movement...Nouvelle English (US) · Español · Ben Ruby
Theologie was as much a rejection and criticism of certain Português (Brasil) · Français (France) ·
forms of "Western THeology" as Florovsky, Staniloae, Lossky, Deutsch Braxton Ituriel Jr.
etc
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Daniel Greeson Romanides / Metro Vlahos are the worst on Facebook © 2019
Catherine Mikiten
this front. Yannaras is pretty bad too (but he follows
Heidegger on so many fronts...) -- but someone like Bulgakov
can be highly polemical...and yet drinking heavily at "Western"
founts..
3
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Daniel Greeson I appreciate the reinvigoration of Thomas


happening now. But contemporary theology / dogmatics /
systematics seems caught in many dark alleys which are
dead ends... we need a renewed sense of the breadth of the
tradition - this means for Orthodox a r… See More
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Daniel Greeson I only saw some hope in the work of


renewed systematics via Bruce Marshall's essay I think in
First Things that looked up to Moehler...
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Daniel Greeson to put my cards on the table... the work of


my dear friend, the late Fr Matthew Baker was beginning to
open up some of these vistas...
5
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Daniel Greeson unfortunately due to geopolitics, moribund


theological visions, and the captivity of most theological
departments to mostly insipid forms of liberalism / liberation
theology...I dont see much hope in the near future...
1
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Daniel Greeson sorry Tony Dragani I know you didnt ask for
this!!
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Daniel Greeson Tony Dragani - are you @ Byzantine


seminary in PIttsburgh? If so, please give my warm regards to
Fr Christian Kappes
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Tony Dragani Daniel Greeson Thank you for your thoughts,


Fr. Daniel. I agree with your sentiments, especially regarding
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Fr. Matthew Baker of blessed memory.
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I don't teach at the Byzantine seminary, but was a student
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Ryan McDaniel Excellent point about the similar and parallel
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movements going on among Catholics and Orthodox.
Everyone was doing "Ressourcement" theology in the 20th
century.
This is something, however, that American Orthodox never
read about. They only read those Orthodox critiques of
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"Western" this-or-that.
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Nathaniel McCallum I cannot begin to explain how much I


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Jacob, Garrett, Jonathan, …

Serge Garibay Honestly, Orthodox need people like Jacques MORE CONTACTS (69)
Maritain, Etienne Gilson and Fr Garrigou-Lagrange to be born
into the revival of Orthodox scholasticism. Alan Alldredge
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Ryan McDaniel I read this piece from Fr Patrick H Reardon a
number of years ago. By the time I read it, I had already come to the Anthony Hudson
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What he is describing is now widely understood and acknowledged Anthony Shinoda


among academic Orthodox in America, but many "converts" still live
in the narrow vision that he describes, believing it to effectively English (US) · Español · Ben Ruby
encapsulate "THE" Orthodox understanding of fill-in-the-blank.
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This, so it seemed to me, was not an acceptable theological position
for a church that explicitly holds to an ecclesiology that embraces
continuity, rather than profound rupture and restoration.

I am always extremely saddened when I see Byzantine Catholics


who are apparently convinced by that 20th century Orthodox vision,
believing the claim that this is "THE" Orthodox understanding of fill-
in-the-blank. In that sense, Byzantine Catholic theology can and
should be even MORE authentically faithful to the fulness of the
Eastern Tradition than is the limited view of the 20th century
Orthodox thinkers.
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FrHilarion Heagy I'm on board with this completely, father.

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Bryan R. Joseph FrHilarion Heagy, this is why I am an


advocate of a comprehensive reading of the Fathers by
anyone interested in Orthodox theology, and that even
includes St. Augustine of Hippo.
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William C Keebler Oh wow! That is a great assessment! Neo-


Palamite; incredible. The whole idea that the energy of God can be
distinct from his essence begs the question of anything close to true
orthodox theology to begin with.
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William C Keebler Actually I need to clarify if not change my


statement. I think instead of “... distinct...” I should say “...separate
from His essence....”
2
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Dave Mathewes A friend of mine is converting from Protestantism to


Orthodoxy. The first parish he ever visited, and where he has been
since, is Fr. Patrick’s parish
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Michael Hutchinson I find this to be patently false. My priest Frater Ashen Chassan’s
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Ian Austin Buckmaster We must have very different


experiences. I've come across the attitudes that Fr Patrick
describes regularly.
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Michael Hutchinson Largely from Romanides Gang.


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Alan Alldredge
Ian Austin Buckmaster Michael Hutchinson That's been a
big gang for the last few decades, unfortunately. But besides
the St Augustine stuff, the anti-scholastic attitude and such Allan Poe Bona Redo…
are still prevalent amongst those who at least partially reject
Romanides. Even from those who outright bash the Parisian 2015 International Pro Star Annastasia Clarke
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Michael Hutchinson Anti-Scholasticism is the position of the
Anthony Shinoda
Church. That doesn't mean wholesale rejection of philosophy
though.
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Ian Austin Buckmaster Michael Hutchinson Ok so you
disagree with the statement on St Augustine in that you find
him still (rightly) highly venerated by Orthodoxy faithful. Privacy · Terms · Advertising · Ad Choices ·
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scholasticism is dominant since about the 1920s in the
Orthodox Church.
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Michael Hutchinson That's largely from figures sympathetic


to ecumenism like Sergius Bulgakov who wrote much against
Blessed Augustine.
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Michael Hutchinson That's the weird thing. The "tolerant"


types are usually very intolerant.
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Ian Austin Buckmaster Michael Hutchinson "That's the weird


thing. The "tolerant" types are usually very intolerant."
I don't disagree. "Ecumenism" as given by liberals is often not
sincere imo.
1
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Michael Hutchinson I was having a conversation with a


brother after Divine Liturgy that we accept Mary as Mediatrix
of All Graces.
2
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Michael Hutchinson Also we accept an Assunption of the


Theotokos in line with the Dormition (falling asleep first).
1
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Ian Austin Buckmaster I can't tell from you comments


whether you are saying the other person had those positions,
that you did, or both.
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Michael Hutchinson People arguing otherwise must not sing


Agni Parthene or do Akathists to the Theotokos very often.
The prayers of the Church are one of the greatest ways to
discern doctrine.
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Michael Hutchinson We both have these positions. Suggested Pages See All

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Michael Hutchinson After I'm done with Father Seraphim
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Rose's biography, I plan to read St. Augustine's Confessions.
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Jannah Leah My EP priest doesn't seem to be a huge fan of


Augustine. YOUR GAMES MORE

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Michael Hutchinson Fr. Seraphim Rose's works are also often full GPP ADMINS
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Michael Hutchinson replied · 4 Replies


Alan Alldredge

James Martinelli I went to a Greek Orthodox catherdal; there were


pamphlets about history....in one it stated that the Normans brought Allan Poe Bona Redo…
the 'Roman church" to England! Here is some real history: as a child
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Michael Hutchinson Yeah. A lot of people, including myself,
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believe Britian held off until 1066 AD at the Norman invasion.
It's an interesting theory either way. Not sure how true it is.
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James Martinelli St. Augustine ( A Benedictine from Subiaco
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Jonathan Vladimir Howry James Martinelli Thank you


strange history of Vladimir Moss...
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FrHilarion Heagy Jonathan Vladimir Howry Vladimir Moss....


lol. That's an interesting man right there.
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Jonathan Vladimir Howry FrHilarion Heagy I'm greatful to


him for compiling many lives of saints. For his editorialism...
less so.
1
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Paul Kossik Look at who attended Nicea and Sardica.


(Bishop of York, for one.
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Serge Garibay Honestly I have seen this many times... many even
do not understand that we literally agree on things like the
immaculate Conception, the filioque or the papacy because they are
just quick to label it as "Roman Catholic". There are many good
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Nathaniel McCallum If only they would actually engage with the


Cappadocians, Maximus and Palamas!
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Search Mark Condra If we take a look at Matthew 16:18-19. Christ Jesus
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David did it with Solomon, not the heir apparent. Revelation 12 is to
lead all to a greater truth. Mother said at Fatima in 1917...
"...The disobedience of priests and religious to their superiors and to
the Holy Father gravely displeases Our Lord." [Separate vision to
Jacinta between 1919-1920] YOUR GAMES MORE

This in itself says The Holy Pontiff is the Leader of Christ's Church.
All should be under the Pontiff, or one should question their eternity.
Generational error is just that, error taught by others who had it
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Mark Condra Ignore me all that you want. In eternity, you will
see but TOO late.
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Mark Condra The Lord is the only one that can see the
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truth!!
Anthony Shinoda
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Mark Condra Burden is the heart that looses and those who English (US) · Español · Ben Ruby
are truly tied to those that loose, in the same!!! Português (Brasil) · Français (France) ·
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FrHilarion Heagy Mark Condra What??? I'm Catholic. Cassandra Richardson
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FrHilarion Heagy Mark Condra You are way out of bounds
here.
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Mark Condra FrHilarion Heagy Roman Catholic? If so, what


did i say WRONG???
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FrHilarion Heagy Mark Condra God bless you.


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Mark Condra I want to know. Roman Catholic?? Yes or


NO!!!? Either case considered convicted. Prophets have a
different say. ETERNALLY. i be one!!
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Mark Condra He controls me you know. i want only to profess


truth. i gave up children to profess it. Consider Solomon only
in SHIT form. Our Lord always does different then men set!!!
Humility be the true test of the heart.
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FrHilarion Heagy Mark Condra You need professional help. I


say that as a Catholic priest and in the kindest way possible.
2
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Mark Condra Father, why is heaven easy for you? Why are
you on facebook?
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Mark Condra FrHilarion Heagy Maybe i am just some


aborting gap in your reality or i am sense coming your way!
Even if i was just a stir. How does one become corrected if
ALWAYS right?
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Braden Charles Nicholas Plyler

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Mark Condra How would you speak to a child? Alan Alldredge


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Mark Condra Hideous is the call of the worm to be above!
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Mark Condra The score of humanity will be made level in the


times to COME!! No human can even the score NOW with our
Lord, No Mother's plead will heed the need for recompense!
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Mark Condra Braden Charles Nicholas Plyler Possums have


hindrance of sight. Why do you presume that you can actually
see? If not in love (1 Cor 13:4-7) or 1 Cor 13:3 & 1 John 4:20-
21, your life is A complete shit, WORTHLESS. Can you past
the test of Christ, or love? Damned be you of the many, Luke
13:24!!
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Mark Condra Many that receive Him in Holy Communion in


the true Church, Roman Catholic, have little understanding of
CCC 1377 and the Love of God. Sacrilege is great when one
does NOT appreciate the GIFT in its ENTIRETY!! About 15
minutes. God is LOVE and Holy Communion is love DIVINE
in our Human Standard. Those in Heaven KNOW!!!
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Mark Condra FATIMA said this simple in the Fall 1916


apparitions with the angel. And few saw. Their blindness they
passed on to YOU! SIMPLE SIMON!!
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Matthew Burchfield Braden Charles Nicholas Plyler “Talos! 9


Divines!”
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Matthew Burchfield Mark Condra Stop taking the pills man


and go to sleep before you overdose
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ტარიელ მიაზგაშვილი

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John F. Michalski Mark Condra Nope. Been there, done that. Alan Alldredge
Spent 41 years in the RC Church. Have no interest in the See
of Rome unless it gives up everything it has taught for the last
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thousand years or so.
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Got to Love, Matthew, to get to Heaven. Or 1 Cor 13:3 and Anthony Shinoda
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TENOR

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Mark Condra John F. Michalski How do you discern? Who


taught you? What is based on, your discernment? Ambiguous
is easy. Heaven is NOT. Luke 13:24. Peace.

i am not trying to convert. That is our Lord deal after i profess


the Truth. To much is given, much i… See More
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Mark Condra Matthew Burchfield Can i be candid? Sorry if i


offend. But your last post reminded me of when i was in third
grade. Childish.

Hell is hideous and forever. Please beg the Holy Spirit to see.
Few escape hell that use facebook regularly not according
… See More
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Search Tyler Cohen I agree on all points, I believe. However, I’m notHome
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that Florovsky can be typified as Anti-Western. He seems quite
amenable to the West. Although, I think his conception that the West GAMES
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FrHilarion Heagy Tyler Cohen Plested is phenomenal. And I YOUR GAMES MORE
agree with your point on Florovsky.
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Karlos Bárcenas Oof, I just read that same quote a couple of days
ago. Fr., Have you heard of Fr. Christiaan Kappes? He's written a lot MORE CONTACTS (69)
on how Mark of Ephesus, Gregory Palamas and Gennadios
Scholarios were actually scholastics (contrary to the popular belief
that they hated reason and philosophy), among other things (like the Alan Alldredge
filioque, Mark of Ephesus at Florence, etc.).
2 Allan Poe Bona Redo…
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FrHilarion Heagy Karlos Bárcenas Fr. Kappes is great! I've 2015 International Pro Star Annastasia Clarke
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Collin Nunis Fr. Kappes taught me Canon Law 101. His work Anthony Shinoda
is awesome!
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Nathaniel McCallum He's also a great guy in general. Deutsch Braxton Ituriel Jr.
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John Canterbury Oh...snap.
Excellent quote!
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Michael Hutchinson I'm highly critical when people want to "get


back to the fathers". Very very reminiscent of protestants and
Enlightenment thinkers claiming to revive things by "going back to
the classics". As if Christ didn't preserve His Church.
1
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FrHilarion Heagy Michael Hutchinson So you don't like


Florovsky, Lossky, and most contemporary strands of
Orthodox theology?
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Michael Hutchinson Being that modern saints have liked


Lossky, I'm inclined to think he's a rare exception. I'm still
learning a lot though.
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Gideon Laser I think going back to the Fathers is good, so


long as it does not mean a rejection of the living tradition. Fr.
Seraphim Rose has a good section on this in his book on
Augustine.
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Michael Hutchinson Gideon Laser, it is good when there isn't


a motive to read novel doctrines back into the fathers.
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Economos Romanos V. Russo For all this palaver narry a word


about genuine Eastern sources: the Syriac & Armenian Traditions!
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Christ the most? And therefore kept His commandments, And
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How weird that holy words become theological pingpong balls, and
beget so much division and factionalism.. We are all trying to find our
way.. And we approach beauty with a desire to distinguish. A wise
young scholar of St Maximus, also a hieromonk helped me much
with what he found (in St Maximus) to be two types of distinction - YOUR GAMES MORE
those that divide and those that unite.. He probably wouldn't endorse
my projection of these onto everything and anything.. But I can't help
it...
A happy new year to all.. All Saints please intercede for us.. "that we 1973 Plymouth Cuda
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Timothy Mackin The beauty of Orthodox theology is that it supplies
what is lacking in the divinization of the world. I would suggest that Alan Alldredge
what appears as reactionary, anti scholastic or anti anything, is
actually an elegant correction in specific time and space. To right the
Allan Poe Bona Redo…
ship as it were in it's voyage to the horizon of His glorious appearing.
3
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Michael Y. Medvedev Even the "Russian rooms" have many secret
corridors). For example, St Dimitry of Rostov admired St Augustine Anthony Hudson
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and had no doubt as to his sainthood. This resulted in massive
reproaches and even an ugly legend according to which St Dimitry Anthony Shinoda
had a vision of Our Lady Who ordered him to repent and then had
him forgiven for his broad sympathies. Nevertheless St Dimitry's
legacy became an integral element of the Russian tradition. English (US) · Español · Ben Ruby
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Greg Cravetz Didn't the Constantinopolitan synods codify Palamism
as the canonical EO theological framework?
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Gideon Laser Likewise the Western tradition is much more broad


than merely Augustine and Aquinas. I see many of the traditionalist
Catholics (especially those among the SSPX) who act as though
these two theologians got basically everything right and any
important western theologians who had major disagreements with
these two (such as Scotus or St. John Cassian) must be wrong. I
see St. John Cassian called a semipelagian among certain trad
groups almost as frequently as I see Augustine called a heretic in
certain Orthodox groups.
5
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Michael Hutchinson True. One of the best things the ROC


did was formally recognize a bunch of Western saints.
1
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Bartłomiej Grzegorz Staniszewski Scotus is extremely


popular, and certainly in the top 5 of all-time most popular
Catholic theologians in academic circles
1
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Bartłomiej Grzegorz Staniszewski Most definitely the most


popular theologian of all time without sainthood lol
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Bartłomiej Grzegorz Staniszewski The reason why Aquinas


is so popular is that the vanguard of Christian revival was all
Thomists. Thomism was the doctrine of Anscombe and
Macintyre when they went in against the logical positivists and
turned the tide in philosophy. Before the big
Thom… See More
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Is there a parallel history between Greek and Latin thinking on the
essence and energies? For the last eighty years, scholars were
distracted by neo-Thomists attacking Palamas. In the fray, they
never bothered to look at other Latin authors who had agreed with
Palamas all along!
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Alan Alldredge
Michael Sisco Whoa. We agree.
Allan Poe Bona Redo…
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Charles T Myers I have met Reardon years ago 2015 International Pro Star Annastasia Clarke
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Anthony Hudson
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John F. Michalski All theological truth begins (and pretty much
ends) with Irenaeus of Lyon. Anthony Shinoda

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English (US) · Español · Ben Ruby
Mark Condra Just a simple insight in relationship to the original Português (Brasil) · Français (France) ·
post. In the Gospels, where did Jesus the Christ every use lengthy Deutsch Braxton Ituriel Jr.
and convoluted discourse to express the truth. Was this not more of
the the Priests, Pharisees Sadducees and scribes? This discourse is Privacy · Terms · Advertising · Ad Choices ·
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And a parable is simple in its example. Simple! Facebook © 2019
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FrHilarion Heagy So you don't believe in the Nicene Creed?


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Mark Condra Is the Nicene Creed convoluted or simple in


verse? Aft the Creed be established, all make their own
choices or be of God!!!
1
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FrHilarion Heagy Mark Condra Yes, but there was a TON of


writing, theology, councils and discussion that went into it.
Homoousios, hypostasis, etc. The theology was necessary to
combat the Arians, who threatened to engulf the whole
Church. So, the Church had to define … See More
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Mark Condra Error is error. No matter how much you see


truth in other matters. Where was the Orthodox Church in
1531? Why did the most important first visitation of Mother not
take place in the Orthodox Church. The Coptic Church
recognized truth more recent. Maybe the Orthodox is to be
now. Many Jews are to be converts if Scripture be true, in
future times.
Like · Reply · 5h

Mark Condra FrHilarion Heagy The walk in Christ is simple.


Every moment is to be done in His Holy Will and in love.

Love is defined in 1 Cor 13:4-7. Love only makes the walk to


heaven MORE burdensome. Not lighter. What is a yoke to
you? Ever carry a cross for just a quarter mile. Not simple.
Brutal is the path to heaven. Or your passage is to HELL.
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FrHilarion Heagy Mark Condra You are very close to being


blocked.
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Mark Condra FrHilarion Heagy Just unfriend me. But realize i


was Christ trying to lead you to truth. If one is perfect, they Suggested Pages See All
never see a need to change. i do not suppose that i have
heaven. Heaven was NOT guaranteed Christ. Or why would Frater Ashen Chassan’s
satan tempt Him. And wa… See More Magical Implements
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HomeI Create
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used to think doctrine was tedious and burdensome too, but I
prefer it now over the burden of relativism and subjectivism.
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Mark Condra FrHilarion Heagy Why does satan NOT test


you? Or have you been deceived?
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My quote...
"satan don't chase the bus that he has already caught and
riding. How is satan attacking you? If you do not know then he
probably,without reason, has you already, unknown. Be called
the deceiver for a reason, all the same." 1973 Plymouth Cuda
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Nathan Adams I once asked a friend who made a similar point, in Alan Alldredge
fact, he was always offering social commentary about the flaws of
modern Orthodoxy, "is it because you find Orthodox so close to your
Allan Poe Bona Redo…
own thinking that you can so pointedly find generalized wrong with
it? If you criticized modern Catholic thinking would you not have
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fathers, or Biblical texts for that matter?" Well maybe you don't see it
Anthony Hudson
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Anthony Shinoda

FrHilarion Heagy Nathan Adams Oh no, I quite agree!


English (US) · Español · Ben Ruby
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