Cross-Cultural Interview Paper

Cross-Cultural Interview Paper

Jeremy Lapka

Drake University

EDL 285
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Living in the United States we continue to struggle with our nation's past history,

and being able to move forward without making judgements based on ones skin color or

look. Lorde (2011) stated, “It is not our differences that divide us. It is our inability to

recognize, accept, and celebrate those differences”. In interviewing three individuals

within our community Kim Jackson, Uzo Illobache, and Ally Wichman I was able to

develop a greater insight and understanding by looking through a cultural lenses that

was not of a white male. Each of these individuals have never meet, but have powerful

stories of struggles and successes that were similar.

In interviewing Kim Jackson, the coordinator for the last 15 years of Des Moines

Area Community College Upward Bound program, you will find an energetic lady who

has a passion for serving students and embodies the mission of this federal funded

program. Ms. Jackson went on to explain (personal communication, May 1, 2019),

“Upward Bound is a Trio program which provides educational opportunities to the five

Des Moines public high schools (DMPS) students regardless of race, ethnic

background, or finical situation. With the outcome of supporting first generation/low

income students to college and graduate.” When interviewing Ms. Jackson you can tell

she was taken her work, and the Trio programs mission to heart to support students of

any background in becoming the best version of themselves.

Ms. Jackson is an African-American women who has experienced many great

things in her life, but also stated she has been involved in many not so great things that

should not have happened due to being black and a women. She moved with her

parents along with her 2 younger sisters to Des Moines when she was 10 years old, and

remembers the experience vividly as Des Moines was very different than Chicago in the
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late 1960’s early 1970’s. When first arriving to Des Moines, the neighborhood

elementary school in DMPS wanted to label her with a learning disability and an IEP

due to some behavioral issues they were seeing. Her parents were very adamant about

not giving her label due to being a black student. They were able to pressure the school

into additional testing, which discovered she was gifted and the behaviors were due to

being bored. Ms. Jackson expressed her deep gratitude to her parents for not allowing

an unneeded label. Due to this outcome and situation her parents decided to enroll in a

program which bussed her to Windsor Heights elementary school.

Enrolling in this program Ms. Jackson noted she was primarily the only black

student in many of her classes in elementary school until attending Franklin Junior high

where she had her first black male teacher in 7th grade, and then attended Roosevelt

high school. She went on to explain that she knew she was one of the only few black

students, but did not notice external factors outside the school that were limiting her

experiences. She went on to state (K. Jackson, personal communication, May 1, 2019),

“during my 40th high school reunion a class member apologized to me for her father's

behavior. Her classmate went on to explain that she was never first chair flute and had

to sit in the second row because her father made sure in meeting with the directors and

administration that a black student would not sit in front of his daughter.” She explained

that she knew there were situations around her that limited her experiences because

she is black, but is thankful her parents were able to provide a buffer as much as

possible.

When talking about her previous employment Ms. Jackson was always upbeat

and responded with the situations as learning opportunities. She graduated from the
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University of Iowa with a degree in business and accounting. She stated (K. Jackson,

personal communication, May 1, 2019), “ Her parents pushed education as they knew it

was gateway to achieving a lifestyle in the middle class, and they wanted their children

to have better situations then they had.” Before working for DMACC Upward Bound she

worked for the Des Moines register as the education coordinator for 6 years promoting

literacy with the newspaper throughout the state of Iowa. This program's 2 positions

were eventually being downsized due to budget cuts, and ultimately her position being

cut along with being relocated into sales. The manager kept the other employee who

had only being working in the position for a year who was young, blonde, blue eyed,

and who had just recently got her certificate from DMACC. Ms. Jackson stated

(personal communication, May 1, 2019), “couple weeks later all black employees were

called into a meeting with the publisher, and asked what had happened. I was then

directed to meet with HR and the owner. A couple months later I was promoted to

manager of the sales center.” She went onto explain how she felt this situation was

handled appropriately, but there are individuals who can not look past the color of one's

skin.

Uzo Ilobachie is the husband of the instructional coach at Prairie Ridge middle

school were I currently teach in Ankeny, Iowa. Uzo is an African black male who grew

up in Lagos, Nigeria, and married Melissa who is a white female who grew up in small

town Iowa. Uzo during the interview was quick to state (personal communication, May

7, 2019), “because I am black does not mean I am African American, I am an African

who now lives in the United States.” He went on to explain because the color of my skin

is darker can sometimes draw comments from both the African American and
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Caucasian populations.Living in a predominantly white community he and his wife do

receive quizzical looks usually from the older generation of white people. He went on to

explain this was more evident when they lived in Texas, but it does happen not as much

here in Iowa.

Growing up in Lagos, is very different for Uzo than it is currently for his young

daughter. He explained how he lived in a very nice neighborhood, and went to primary

school with students similar to him that had educated parents along with students from

other countries whose parents worked in Lagos oil industry. He eventually went to an all

boys school called King’s College in Lagos. Uzo stated about his education (personal

communication, May 7, 2019), “My parents were well educated and it was important to

them that my brothers and I receive a quality education.” Being educated in Lagos did

create a target on his back due to the impoverished conditions. When going out him and

his classmates would have security detail to ensure their safety. This was even more

definite for his white classmates because of the possibility of being kidnapped, and then

held for ransom. These situations were not necessarily due to the color of the students

skin, but because of the educational disparity happening meaning those who are

educated had money.

In interviewing Uzo he noted that the color of his skin became a bigger issue

when moving and living in the United States. He has been put in many situations with

our law enforcement due to the color of his skin, and the perceived notion of what black

males could be doing. Uzo explained a recent situation, which happened to him in

Urbandale when driving down Merle Hay road. He stated (U. Illoabache, personal

communication, May 7, 2019), “ I was pulled over by a police officer who claimed my
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rear brake light was out. He interviewed me, then proceeded to look through the

windows at both the front and back seats. I was given a warning to fix the car, so I drove

home and had my wife stand behind my car to see which light was out. Neither brake

light was out, so I believe he really wanted to pull me over because I was black.” This

type of situation was not the first he encountered having a similar experience in Texas

as well. Uzo explained (personal communication, May 7, 2019),

“While driving on the interstate with my wife (then finance) from Houston to Dallas

a Texas trooper speed up to next to our car, and maintained this for a couple of miles

then proceed to follow us from behind. With traffic in the left lane we passed a spot were

a vehicle had stopped on the right shoulder, and I was not able to merge into the left

lane due to traffic. The officer proceeded to pull us over for not switching lanes due to a

vehicle on the side of the road. We were each singly questioned by the trooper behind

his car as to where we were going, and why we were not working. I was again let go

with a warning.”

These situations continue to play out across the United States because of one's skin

color.

In finishing the interview with Uzo, he wrapped up our conversation about how he

believes we can move forward. With education being a big part of his life, educating

others is important along with overcoming assumptions do to one's skin color. Uzo

made the following statement (personal communication, May 7, 2019), “ That white

people understand where we are coming from if a situation bothers us. Sometimes my

wife has a hard time realizing why a situation might have bothered me because she is a

white woman living in a predominantly white community. If you are not black, then you
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can never know what life is like for us because your perspective is just different than

ours.” This statement does not mean we can not grow and move forward, but as white

individuals we need to listen to understand why a situation has created a friction. Finally

he discussed making sure our unintended bias do not impact students of color. He is a

well educated black male that came from a black family that had high expectations for

their children. Black students along with students of any color may be labeled as

troublemakers just because of the color of their skin.

Evallyn Wichman (Ally) a junior at Ankeny Centennial High School in Ankeny,

Iowa considers herself a pretty normal teen. In describing her experiences she listed off

many of the activities she participates in from cheer, showchoir, and running track. In

interviewing her she seems to be a typical teen living in a suburban city, has 2 siblings,

and her parents. However, Ally explained she was not dealt these cards initially in life

(personal communication, May 8, 2019), “I was adopted by my parents, who are both

white, and I am multiracial black”. In explaining who she is along with her family it was

evident that the family dynamic has embraced this difference to become one family unit.

Ally did not spend much time elaborating on the visual differences of her family, except

for describing the Ankeny community as primarily white population along with the high

school she attends compared to the Pleasant Valley area where she attended

elementary school.

In listening to Ally describe her time in Ankeny, there was a very apparent

message of how grateful she is to have all of the opportunities around her. She stated,

“Ankeny’s education is exemplary compared to many other schools and their are so

many activities” (A. Wichman, personal communication, May 8, 2019); she always
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focused on and appreciated the opportunities her teachers provided her along with the

resources available to her such as 3D printing or Apple computers. Ally continued to

describe the academic experience Ankeny has provided her, and how the school has

set her up to be prepared for college.

Ally spent most of the interview from there talking about how social media and

friend groups created a majority of the drama. According to Ally, “It feels like there’s no

hope for people who have already made up their minds. I think maybe making diversity

and equality more of a serious topic when we are younger instead of a chessy topic as

kids” (personal communication, May 8th, 2019). The white utopia Ally thought she was

going to live in was not the reality she was living. The nice “white” place of Ankeny was

more described as wealthy students who did not recognize what they had and would

rather pity themselves on social media or say horrible instagram posts for all friends

groups to see. Ally went on to state, “People are pretty savage here, just never

physically. They try to ruin a person's image and get followers on their side” (personal

communication, May 8, 2019). In finishing the interview Ally made one final comment

about equality amongst her current peers. She stated (A. Wichman, personal

communication, May 8, 2019), “They don’t appreciate what they have, their self pity

make people who have it worse feel terrible”; what she was implying was her peers do

not recognize their words about sex, race, or gender are affecting students around them

because of the like mindset of the “white” majority of the students.

Interviewing and discussing cultural differences with each person, and how we

see them through our own lenses was a very evident takeaway. All three of the

interviews had a similar response when it came to education. They described education
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and its importance of providing each individual person a successful opportunity to

become the best person possible. The system of education can not continue to support

and privilege only the caucasian population. Mark Busch director of Iowa Safe schools

reiterates this point for all students in pubics schools in Iowa and the United States.

Busch stated “When looking at privilege it is the unearned benefits given to people who

fit into a specific group, a majority group” (personal communication, April 20, 2019).

Privilege needs to be the self awareness of how the current system may be benefiting

you and you might not be aware of it. This becomes difficult for a person who has

privilege to see it through someone else's lens.

Each person interviewed may have had very different up brings and

backgrounds, but communicated a very similar experience living in predominantly white

communities.They each described in their own way the struggles white colleagues,

friends, or family members struggle to see how certain situations have affected them

differently due to the color of their skin. Each person in their own way did not fault the

individual,but explained it as not be able to see it as their are not in their shoes. White

privilege may first appear to be invisible to some, but it can not stay invisible once it has

be recognized. Peggy McIntosh (as cited in Rothenberg, 2016) in her article states, “I

have come to see white privilege as an invisible package of unearned assets that I can

count on cashing in each day, but about which I was “meant” to remain oblivious”; she

goes on to state later in her, “Describing white privilege makes one newly accountable”

(p.176). The case that McIntosh is making is once you have recognized how white

privilege has aided or helped you even if it is unconscious, you need to identify it and

acknowledge it.
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Throughout the whole course and interviewing these three individuals, my

internal guilt of how our history continues to perpetuate both social injustices and my

own blindness of white privilege. Robin DiAngelo (as cited in Rothenberg, 2016) writes,

“We focus on our intentions and discount the impact, thereby invalidating people of

color’s experiences and communicating that the effects of our behavior on them are

unimportant” (p. 185). The biggest stereotype, I myself, need to overcome is the thought

of working hard in school has gotten we where I am today. Listening to the three people

I have interviewed they also valued education and its importance for moving you

forward in life. However, there are many hidden privileges from the applying process,

receiving loans, along with the face to face interview process that I did not need to worry

about how people saw/looked at me. I can not continue to ignore the privilege or not

recognize it as this then makes me guilty of continuing to perpetuate the problem.

DiAngelo (as cited in Rothenberg, 2016) writes, “I may never fully understand the

workings of racism, as I have been trained my entire life to perpetuate racism while

denying its reality” (p. 187). She makes argument that recognizing privilege is there is

only the first step, and being ignorant can not be the excuse.

Starting the class I realized I had a very basic or narrow view of understanding of

what social justice was and is today in our society. Understanding social justice as just

an equitable playing field for all is just the beginning. Digging deeper into our own

biases, current laws, justice system, and school systems to determine how they may be

marginalizing certain groups of people encompases where social reform/justice can

start. Our society continues to perpetuate laws and the past which marginalizes certain

cultures. Effective leaders need to not only recognize unequal circumstances, but also
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their own biases they bring from their own cultural upbringing. Khalifa and Gooden and

Davis (2016) make the following statement about educational leaders, “The ability of

education leaders to critically self-reflect about their biases and their practice is integral

to both transformative and social justice leadership” (p. 1285). The work of a leader in a

school needs to provide an equitable playing field for all students regardless of their

race, class, or gender.

As future educational leaders recognizing social injustices and white privilege in

our schools can not be just that, recognition. Completing the three interviews I had an

initial negative guilt reaction of myself and the feeling of being ashamed. However, if I

let this guilt reaction perpetuate by not doing anything about it in my circle of influence.

Then I myself continue to be part of the problem looking only through my narrow cultural

lens.

References

Khalifa, M. A., Gooden, M. A., & Davis, J. E. (2016). Culturally Responsive School Leadership.
Review of Educational Research,86(4), 1272-1311. doi:10.3102/0034654316630383

Lorde, A. (2011, October 26). Life gets better when you're kind to yourself. Retrieved from
https://kindovermatter.com/

Rothenberg, P. S., & Munshi, S. (2016). Race, class, and gender in the United States: An
integrated study. New York: Worth /Macmillan Learning.
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