The Board of Regents of the University of Wisconsin System

An Interview with Italo Calvino

Author(s): Gregory L. Lucente and Italo Calvino
Source: Contemporary Literature, Vol. 26, No. 3 (Autumn, 1985), pp. 245-253
Published by: University of Wisconsin Press
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1208025 .
Accessed: 28/09/2013 02:09

Your use of the JSTOR archive indicates your acceptance of the Terms & Conditions of Use, available at .
http://www.jstor.org/page/info/about/policies/terms.jsp

.
JSTOR is a not-for-profit service that helps scholars, researchers, and students discover, use, and build upon a wide range of
content in a trusted digital archive. We use information technology and tools to increase productivity and facilitate new forms
of scholarship. For more information about JSTOR, please contact support@jstor.org.

University of Wisconsin Press and The Board of Regents of the University of Wisconsin System are
collaborating with JSTOR to digitize, preserve and extend access to Contemporary Literature.

http://www.jstor.org

This content downloaded from 147.8.31.43 on Sat, 28 Sep 2013 02:09:23 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
AN INTERVIEW WITH ITALO CALVINO

Conductedby GregoryL. Lucente

The followinginterview,whichconcernsthe developmentof Calvino's

fiction in relationto his two most recentnarratives,If on a Winter's
Night a Traveler(1979; Se una notte d'invernoun viaggiatore)and
Palomar(1983),took placeat Calvino'sresidencein Rome on March
12, 1984. The discussion'spoint of departurewas literaryself-con-
sciousness,or textualself-reflexivityand self-knowledge,in Calvino's
writings.The translationis mine.

Q. Am I rightin sayingthat as a consciouselementof yourwork,

as a matterof authorialintention, literaryself-consciousnessbegins
to be importantin the late 1950sand early 1960swith the trilogy of
novels entitled Our Ancestors (I nostri antenati)?
A. Yes, I would say so. The endingof TheBaron in the Trees(Il
baronerampante),in whichwriting,the materialact of writing,comes
to the fore, and the page writtenout by hand assumescenter stage,
thus occupyingthe very same space as that in which the novel itself
unfolds, indicatesthat I was alreadyawarethat the fact of writing,
the very means of expression,was importantin itself. Also the use
of the first-personnarratorin The Cloven Viscount (Il visconte
dimezzato)- a narratorwhose voice is not the voice of a protagonist
per se but ratherthat of a lateralor secondarycharacterwho has the
role of narrator- was a way of embeddingthe entirenarrativewithin
anotherdiscourse.This aspectof narrationthen acquiredevengreater
importancein TheNonexistentKnight(Il cavaliereinesistente).Today
I can no longer recall exactlywhich texts I was readingat the time,
which readings accompanied this new awareness, but it goes without
sayingthat European,American,and, indirectly,Italiancriticismof

Contemporary Literature XXVI, 3 0010-7484/85/0003-0245 $1.50

?1985 by the Board of Regents of the University of Wisconsin System

This content downloaded from 147.8.31.43 on Sat, 28 Sep 2013 02:09:23 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
Italo Calvino. Photo credit: Denis Gibier. Photo courtesy of Harcourt Brace Jovanovich.

This content downloaded from 147.8.31.43 on Sat, 28 Sep 2013 02:09:23 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
the 1950s, and even more so as we approachedthe 1960s, became
noticeablymore conscious of the instrumentsof expression.
Q. Was this all part of the beginningsof structuralism?
A. Yes, it was the start of structuralism,of which I began to be
awarelater, in the 1960s, and which I immediatelyfelt to be some-
thing that respondedto my needs and to what I instinctivelyknew
writingto be. Beforethat in Italytherehad been an interestin stylis-
tic criticism,thanks primarilyto the figure of GianfrancoContini,
who knew just about everythingthere was to know. But that's not
to say that he would engage in overt propagandain favor of his
interests.He would keep certainthingsto himselfand then let them
appearindirectlyin his criticism.At any rate, he showed a definite
interestin stylistics,in the primarylinguisticmaterial.And another
criticwhose work along these lines had a greatinfluencein Italy was
Leo Spitzer.

Q. Accordingto certaincritics, not only in regardto your own

work but also to that of other writerswho becameawareof literary
self-consciousness,of this literaryversionof "narcissisticlove," this
phenomenonconstituteda refusalto facethe everydayrealityof society
-precisely in literaryterms, a turningaway from social representa-
tion. The comparisonthat is often drawnin this regardis between
contemporaryself-consciousnarrativeandthe far less abstractlitera-
tureof Italianpostwarrealism.It is unclearto me if, or in whatway,
one can saythatthis phenomenonwasin fact sucha refusal.Perhapsit
was an indicationof an interestin other possibilitiesthat literature
offers, that is, an interestin valuesthat are social ones but that are
not directlytied to traditionalliteraryrepresentation.
A. I believethatit wasa refusalto identifyliterature's
socialaspect
exclusivelyor even primarilywith the so-called"objective"represen-
tation of society,whichwe know all too well is not objectiveanyway.
However,this versionof representationas an objectivefact has never
been predominantin Italianliterature.Before, in the periodbetween
thetwo wars,Italianliteraturewasdominatedby the lyric,by the lyrical
self-expressionof the individualstate of mind; later on, towardthe
endof the war-by reasonof certainhistoricalneeds,the needto know
Italy-there was a revivalof realism,in severalcases in a markedly
naturalisticvein. I wrote neorealistfiction becauseduringthe war I
had experienced the everyday life of the people first hand. But my
literary formation, insofar as one can speak of literary formation in

246 CONTEMPORARY LITERATURE

This content downloaded from 147.8.31.43 on Sat, 28 Sep 2013 02:09:23 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
regardto the years of my adolescencebefore the war, was tied very
closely to Italianliteratureas such and did not, therefore,have very
profoundroots in realism.Italianliteraturebetweenthe two warscan-
not be saidto havebeenparticularlyrealistic,andthereforeit was not
as though the realist roots went very deep.

Q. But perhapsalso the Fascist censorship...

A. Yes, therewas censorship.But fortunatelyI beganpublishing
afterwards,afterthe era of the liberation.Followingan initialperiod
duringwhichI believedin a kindof objectiverealism,I quicklyunder-
stood that in orderto say something,includingsomethingthat had
to do with Italian society, with the history of Italian society, it was
necessaryeitherto look withinoneselfor to exposesocialmechanisms
throughrepresentations thatmightverywellnot be realisticin the tradi-
tionalsense.Themethodof BertoltBrecht,for example,was extremely
importantfor its demonstrationthat in orderto representthe moral
fabricof social life, a determinedset of historicalprocesses,what is
essentialis to representthe basic mechanism.

Q. What lies underneath,that is, at the deepest levels.

A. Yes, precisely,the diagramof the basic motivatingforces. It
goes without sayingthat a well-constructedsocial documentarymay
also have greatvalue;but to accomplishthis, the authormust really
know the environment.Vasco Pratolini, who grew up in the poor
quartersof Florence,demonstratedgreat sincerityand effectiveness
in expressingthe life of that world, much morethan some bourgeois
writerwould have who had approachedhis materialas, let's say, an
explorerin a strange, unknown land.
Q. So Brecht drew your interest at a certain time. Of course,
Brecht'stheoriesconcernnot only literatureanddramain andof them-
selvesbut also the audience,those who cometo watchandparticipate.
A. Brecht'sconceptionof the epictheateris one in whichthe drama
mustnot makethe audiencebelievein the realityof its worldbutinstead
must declareitself openlyas theater,in orderto arousethe audience's
critical powers.

Q. Throughthe creation of distance ...

A. Yes,throughthe creationof distance.Thisnotionhasbeenquite
importantfor me, whereasI have never found Lukics's theories of
reflection very interesting.

CALVINO 247

This content downloaded from 147.8.31.43 on Sat, 28 Sep 2013 02:09:23 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
Q. Becausethey are tied too closely to the facts of social life?
A. BecauseI did not like the image of the mirror.It is too pas-
sive. And besidesthat, I no longerthoughtof literatureas a mirror.
My idea of literaturewas of somethingthat could and would inter-
vene in reality.Or at least that'sthe way I thoughtof it then. Today
these thingsare very far from me, I don'treallycare very much any-
more about Brechtor Lukacs. But in that era, betweenBrechtand
Lukacs, I chose Brecht.
Q. In yournovelof 1979,If on a Winter's Nighta Traveler,literary
self-consciousnessis importantnot only in regardto the text itself but
also in regardto the text'sreaders,or audience,the "reader" as a char-
acterin the story as well as the empiricalreader.It seemsto me that
this is again an aspect of Palomar, even though a considerablyless
obvious one.
A. Yes,Palomaris a completelydifferentwork, though I cannot
reallysay thatit is posteriorto If on a Winter'sNight. BecauseI began
writingthe piecesthat makeup Palomarin 1975,as a practicalmatter
I wrote the two books contemporaneously.However, Palomar re-
spondsto anotherproblematic,above all the problematicof nonlin-
guisticphenomena.That is, how can one read somethingthat is not
written,for example[fromthe book'sopening],the wavesof the sea?
Q. After this will the self-consciouslypresentedthematicsof the
reader,andof the activityof reading,continueto figurein yourwork?
A. I don'tknow. At the momentthey seemfinished.Perhapsthey
will find some new and differentkind of expression,but I think that
for the time being I have exhaustedthe theme of reading.

Q. That'swhy I asked.As an artifact,If on a Winter's

Nightseems
at least to have posed all the possible questionsabout readingeven
if not to have found all the answers.
A. At a certainpointI stillhada greatmanyquestionsleft in regard
to reading,to varioustypes of reading,so I massedthem all together
in the chapterset in the library,in whichI madeup a kindof encyclo-
pedia on the art of reading.
Q. I'd like to ask a very specific questionconcerningthe book,
perhapstoo specific. Near the beginningof If on a Winter'sNight,
the novel within the novel appears to be Polish, but then later it seems
has carried
to be Cimmerian.From Homer on down, "Cimmerian"

248 CONTEMPORARY LITERATURE

This content downloaded from 147.8.31.43 on Sat, 28 Sep 2013 02:09:23 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
the connotationof obscurity.I don't know if you intendedthe term
to be understoodin that sense. How did you pick such an obscure
nationality?
A. BecauseI did not want to have precisenationalitiesat all. In
fact, many of the criticstriedto suggestprecisereferences,claiming
that one of the insertednovels would have been by this author and
anothernovel wouldhavebeenby that author.No, they are examples
of styles, generalsuggestionsratherthan specific authorsor litera-
tures.The beginningof the book titled"Leaningfromthe SteepSlope"
could be German,in termsof landscapeat any rate- I recallthe sea
near Liibeck-but in terms of sensibility,it's nearerto the states of
mind found in Austrianliterature.

Q. So this was a means of concealingor, at least on your part,

of confounding any critical attemptto ...
A. Some of these beginningsof novels do have precisesettings.
For example, there is a Latin Americannovel among them; that is
quiteclearevenif it is not clearwhetherit is SouthAmericanor Central
American.Then there is at least one book that is set along a street
called Prospect Street("la Prospettiva"),and one thinks right away
of Gogol, of the traditionof the Russiannovel. But such references
remainvery general.

Q. In otherwords, as in your earliernovels, self-consciousinter-

textualityhereis not a questionof allegoricalinterpretation,
of a stable
or fixed relation between literarysign and literaryreferent.
A. I sought types of relationswith the world and with types of
narrative.The novel about the mirrorsis constructeda little bit like
certainof Poe's storiesthat begin with an eruditequotation,the type
of storyin whichthe eruditionintroducesa storyof suspense,or even
one of terror. Borges, too, often constructsstories in that way. So
these are reallytypes of narrative,examplesof which can be found
in one countryas well as in anotheror whichmay even bounce back
and forth from one continentto another.The Japanesenovel could
make one think of a novel by Kawabataor Tanizaki,but the erotic
situationcould also be typicallyFrench.I am thinkingof Klossowski,
for example.

Q. Whichis to say that these relationsare part of humannature

and arenot specificallytied to just one writeror another.Butperhaps
all of this demonstratesthe humannecessityof interpretation,our need

CALVINO 249

This content downloaded from 147.8.31.43 on Sat, 28 Sep 2013 02:09:23 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
to interpret
or atleastto attemptaninterpretation in orderto organize
andprovidean orderfor a worldthatis too chaotic.There'sa beau-
tiful exampleof this phenomenon in Palomar,which,sinceit deals
withtheinterpretation of whatmightbetermeda setof signs,reflects
backimplicitlyon thenarrative itself.Thescenethatstruckmeis the
tripto Mexico to seetheruinsat Tula,theancientTolteccapital,where
theMexicanguideexplainsthattheruinsdo anddo nothavea mean-
ing. Thatis, the artifactsexist,andthereis no doubtthattheyhave
or at leasthad a meaning.Butthe guideinsiststhat no one knows
anymorewhatthemeaningof thesignsis. Thensomeoneelsecomes
along,accompanying Palomar,thetraveler,andassertspreciselythe
contrary,thatis, thatthe signsof the ruinscanbe interpreted with
certainty,eventhoughin an allegoricalfashion.Accordingto him,
theirmeaningis the necessityof deathandthe continuityof life.
A. Thisis anotherMexican,butonewhoexplains,whohasa pas-
sionto interpret andexplainthings.Thesearetwodifferentattitudes,
andI recognize theforceof eachof them.Wecannotdo withoutinter-
preting,withoutaskingourselveswhat somethingmeans,without
embarking on an explanation. At the sametime,however,we know
that for any explanation-ofone of Dante'ssonnets,or of an alle-
goricalpaintingfromthe MiddleAges,or, evenmore,of an ethno-
graphicartifactfroma civilizationdistantfromourown- too many
thingsaremissing,becausewelacktheentirecontext.Evenif wesuc-
ceedin establishing certainmeaningswithprecision,theseso-called
meanings,in our context, are entirelydifferent.
Q. So even if we knew with certainty,even in that case, because
of the distancein time and culture...
A. To know that a given symbol means "death"still does not
explaineverything.After all, whatmeaningdoes "death"havein that
culture?

Q. Or the other side of the coin, in the case of the ruinsat Tula,
is the continuityof life.
A. At any rate, a purelydescriptivecriticismdoes have a func-
tion. For example,structuralism,by itself, does not pretendto inter-
pret:it only attemptsto establishvariousoppositionsamonga deter-
mined set of signs. Thereis this sign and thereis that one, placedin
opposition, for example, betweenhigh and low, above and below.
Structuralismseeks to give a descriptionof the text, of the phe-
nomenon, which is not the same as an interpretation.

250 CONTEMPORARY LITERATURE

This content downloaded from 147.8.31.43 on Sat, 28 Sep 2013 02:09:23 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
Q. Thatis, a descriptionof a systemof differencesthat may lead,
naturally,to interpretationbut that in and of itself, as a description,
stops short of interpretation.
A. In that brief storyof mine I do not take sidesbut insteadlimit
myselfto representingthesetwo positions,one againstthe other, and
to emphasizingthe force of this little Mexicaninstructorwho con-
tinues to say that no one knows what the meaningof the ruins is.

Q. His convictionis especiallyengaging,in part no doubt due to

its presentationin the book in Spanish-there's an effect of local
authenticityin his languagethat has an influenceon the reactionsof
the reader.Anyway, at the end of the book there is somethingelse
that struckme, this time in relationto the plotting of the narrative.
AlthoughPalomar is a book in which any notion of plot seems sec-
ondaryat best, at the end, when "il signorPalomar"sets himselfthe
task of describingevery instant of his life, moment by moment, he
suddenlydies. At that moment,the plot becomesimportant- but the
book is alreadyfinished.
A. That, at least, is a crucialmomentof everynarrative-that is,
death.

Q. Then that made me think - even if only in this sense - of the

ending of Carlo Emilio Gadda's Acquainted with Grief(La cognizione
del dolore),giventhat there,too, the book doesn'tseemto havemuch
of a plot until the end, at which point the plot explodes.
A. In Gadda'snovel, however,therewas a plot, therehad to be.
Therehad to be the death of the mother,therehad to be the murder.
Gadda had a plot in mind.

Q. So in Palomar, an importantending, one that is striking,still

does not meanthatjust becauseof it a readerhasto go backandrecon-
struct everythingin the narrativealong the lines of a plot?
A. But perhapsin the endthis writingmomentby momentis itself
the book that I wrote, that I published.

Q. Justto enlargethe discussiona bit, I havetwo questionsregard-

ing contemporaryliteraturein Americaand in Italy. Overthe years
you have said quite a few times that you were interestedin certain
Americanand other English-speakingauthors.Is this interesta con-
tinuing one?

CALVINO 251

This content downloaded from 147.8.31.43 on Sat, 28 Sep 2013 02:09:23 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
A. Yes it is. In If on a Winter'sNight, Nabokov's influence makes
itself felt quiteclearly,for example.My literaryformationtook place
duringthe era of the cult (in Italy) for what was then called"thelost
generation":Hemingway,Faulkner,Fitzgerald.At thattimeit seemed
possibleto me to follow Americanliteratureas a whole, with a com-
mon history.Lateron I becameinterestedin variousauthorsas indi-
viduals. For example, a writerwho representeda real discoveryfor
me in termsof the pleasuresof writingwas JohnUpdike.OtherAmeri-
can writers,like John Barth,have interestedme particularlyin terms
of the criticalimagination,for theirinventionsof new forms.Donald
Barthelme,too, appealsto me in that regard.One of the most recent
Americannovels that I enjoyedfor the pleasureof readingit as well
as for its formal innovationwas Duluth by Gore Vidal.

Q. In an essayof 1959,if I'mnot mistaken,you dividedcontem-

poraryItalianliteratureinto threecurrents.First, an epic-elegiacone
(including,for example,CarloCassola,GiorgioBassani,andGiuseppe
Tomasidi Lampedusa); second,one thatwascharacterized by linguistic
tension and by a mixtureof standardItalianand Italiandialects(in-
cludingPier Paolo Pasolini and Gadda);and, third (includingyour
own work), one that was characterizedby the transfiguringpowers
of the fantastic.This thirdcurrent,accordingto your view, was not
an evasion of social life but ratheranotheravenue of approachto
humanand socialvicesandvirtues.I wonderif this thirdline stillcon-
tinues today, let's say as an interestin a kind of representationthat
is not traditionalas such but insteada type of indirectinvestigation,
an indirectand perhapsself-consciousway of posingthose sameques-
tions withinliterature.I have in mind not only your own fiction but
also othercurrentbooks, suchas recentnovelsby FerdinandoCamon
and CarmeloSamona.
A. I'm not surethat one can speakof a line today becausethese
are things that can only be talked about after the fact, when three
or four similarbooks can be put together.Today,perhaps,one can-
not reallysay what line Italianliteratureis taking. Thereis no prin-
cipal trend. Perhapswe are discoveringtoday that Italianliterature
is madeup of eccentricfigures,marginalfigures,ratherthan central
ones. A writerlikeAlbertoSavinio,for example,who wasalwayscon-
sideredto be an eccentric- now we can see that he was insteadan ex-
tremelyrepresentative writer.Fromthatsameperspective,todaywriters
like TommasoLandolfior Antonio Delfini arebecomingmuchmore
importantthan many others.

252 CONTEMPORARY LITERATURE

This content downloaded from 147.8.31.43 on Sat, 28 Sep 2013 02:09:23 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
Q. So the fact that no line can easily be traced does not neces-
sarilymean,in andof itself,thatliteraturein Italyis in totalconfusion?
A. Perhapstoday there is a revivalof individualwork, which is
becomingmoreimportantthan collectivework,giventhattherearen't
reallyany literaryjournals,that there aren'tany establishedcenters,
that therearen'tany real movements.The last movementwas consti-
tuted by the "Gruppo63," and even that, if you look closely, was
actuallya galaxy of individuals.One of the most interestingwriters
workingtoday- also fromthe perspectiveof yourinterestin self-con-
sciousness-is Giorgio Manganelli,who is also a typicallyeccentric
writer.

Q. I'd like to ask one last question, one that has to do with the
craft of writing.I shouldprefaceit by sayingthat not only to me but
also to the studentsthat I have had in the classroomyour prose has
alwaysseemedlucidyet at the sametime verycomplex.That is, there
is usuallya complicatedset of problemsthatareput forth- not negated
or simplifiedbut expressed- withextraordinary clarity.Thiscombina-
tion of clarityand complexityin your work, this style, is this a gift
of God or is it somethingthat you've had to work at consciously?
A. Let'ssay that it's a workingprogram,a task to be laboredat.
What I'm interestedin doing is to seek out - if it's the case to clarify,
at any rate to represent- complexity.What is complexinterestsme,
what is knottedup and difficult to describe,and I try to depictit in
a style as limpid as possible. My line is certainlydifferentfrom that
of writerswho wantto createa mimesisof complexitythroughlanguage
that is like a boiling cauldron,througha representationthat is com-
plex in itself and that calls attentionto itself- writers,for example,
such as Gadda or Edoardo Sanguineti.

Q. And Faulknercouldbe consideredin that way equallyas well.

A. It's also the line of Faulkner,of the later Joyce. I have great
respectand admirationfor these writersof formidablelinguisticden-
sity. My procedureis differentbecause I try to deepenthe contrast
betweensentencesthat are apparentlylinear, classical, and a reality
that is undeniablycomplex.In the end, I believethat all writersshare
this fundamentalurge even when they representthe most chaotic of
realities. Just as the fact of writingimplies an order.

CALVINO 253

This content downloaded from 147.8.31.43 on Sat, 28 Sep 2013 02:09:23 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions