An Interview with Grandmaster Chen Xiao Wang

Posted on May 4, 2016by theinternalathlete

Last year I was very fortunate to have the opportunity to interview Grandmaster Chen Xiao
Wang during his annual week of training in Reading hosted by Karel and Eva. (1) I’m not one who
goes in for hero worship in any shape or form but after having trained with Master Chen for the
last 14 years I have found his teaching to be an extremely insightful and positive influence on
my Taiji training and, dare I say it, my life also. Therefore, the interview was something I was
very much looking forward to and even a little nervous about. The day soon came round and
this particular June afternoon found us all sitting around the kitchen table at Karel and Eva’s
nursing steaming cups of delicious Oolong tea. Master Chen, looking very dapper in his jet black
silk suit, sat across the table from me his meaty, bear-like hands gesturing beautifully as he
talked. Despite punctuating his words with the occasional explosive Fajin, I soon felt greatly at
ease and found myself just happily listening, simply immersed in the story of the Chen family
history straight from the horse’s mouth:
SM: Thanks very much for meeting me today Master Chen. Could you start things off by talking
about the history of Chen Family Taiji a little?
CXW: OK…It’s my pleasure. We’ll start from the 9th generation of Chen Family Taiji with Chen
Wangting. For a long time Chen Wangting was an army general and scholar during the late
Ming dynasty (1368-1644). He was a fearsome fighter both with weapons and in unarmed
combat. Being the winner of many battles he was highly recognised and rewarded by the
emperor but when the Ming dynasty came to an end and the Qing dynasty began (1644-1911)
he didn’t want to serve the Qing dynasty and decided to retire to Chenjigou village.
Back in Chenjiagou he lived a simple life and farmed his land during the warmer months of the
year and over the winters he worked on developing Taiji. Chen Wangting was already a very
good martial artist when he retired and had lots of fighting experience, he was also a scholar
and widely travelled. So he combined all of his knowledge of fighting and Taoist principles
(yin/yang principle), Meridian theory and Chinese Medical theory. All these different elements
he brought together and created a new kind of movement that was good for the body, good the
mind and good for fighting: Chansigong, the Silk-reeling technique or spiralling movement. He
devised 5 Taiji forms as well as pushing hands routines – the pushing hands routines were to
help people train together but without injuring each other so much when sparring. He also
created some two person spear fighting routines.
After Chen Wangting the next few generations all did well and prospered and the Taiji practise
stayed the same. At the 14th generation things changed with Chen Changxing. He did Taiji very
well. He was a good fighter and trained many of his students to work as bodyguards on trade
convoys as there were many bandits in the area in those days. There are many, many stories
about Chen Changxing’s Taiji skills but I’m not going to talk too much about stories today just
Chen Family history. Chen Changxing condensed the five hand forms into just two sets: Yilu and
Erlu. We would call them Laojia or old frame today. The weapons forms and pushing-hands
routines are much the same as they ever were.

One principle, three kinds of motion

One of Chen Changxing’s friends was a wealthy business man who owned a Chinese Medicine
shop in a town nearby. One day a couple came in and offered to sell him their son to work in his
shop. He accepted and this 12 year old boy was Yang Lu Chan – he went on to create Yang style
Taiji. By the time he was 18 Yang Lu Chan had outgrown shop work and so he was sent to work
for Chen Changxing. Working as a servant in Chenjiagou over the years, Yang Lu Chan often had
a chance to watch Chen Changxing teaching his students Taiji. One night when Chen Changxing
was on his way home he noticed someone in the shadows practising something that looked a
little like Taiji but didn’t recognise him as one of his students. He asked Yang Lu Chan where he
had learned Taiji and Yang Lu Chan explained that he had learned just by watching here and
there while doing his job and by training at night time. Around this time Yang Lu Chan was given
his freedom by his owner and he was allowed to stay in Chenjiagou – he stayed for for 6 years of
basic training. After this first period he went away travelling as he wanted to test his Taiji skills
against other martial artists in the land. He fought against many other people and found that
while he didn’t ever lose, he also didn’t ever win. So he came back to Chen village to train with
Chen Changxing for another six years.
A funny story during this time is that one night after class Yang Lu Chan was following Chen
Changxing up some stairs on their way home. Young Yang, who was carrying a lamp to light the
way, decided that this was a good time to test his master. He blew out the lamp and in the
darkness grabbed Chen Changxing around the waist to try and topple him off the stairs. Chen
Changxing responded straight away, he was very fast. Using a movement like ‘Fists Drape Over
the Body’ with a little Fajin (Master Chen gestures violently in his chair) he knocked Yang Lu
Chan all the way down the stairs to the bottom where Yang got up on to his knees and bowed
repeatedly saying ‘Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you!!’
After this time Yang Lu Chan went away to make a life on his own and ended up teaching Taiji to
the royal family in Beijing. Over time he changed his Taiji for the royal family to make it easier to
learn. He made it simpler, a little less hard work, without the silk-reeling and the difficult
movements like the jumps and Fajin. People say that he came back to Chenjiagou for another 6
years but it’s not true. He did come back to visit once for a few days but he didn’t stay. Many
historical records show this. When he came back to visit he was very well dressed, wearing a
long fox fur coat. Everybody said to him how smart and regal he looked but he just replied that
the coat was only made from dog fur.
In the 15th generation there was Chen Gengyun. He worked as a bodyguard protecting convoys
full of valuable goods. Once when he was working away from home his convoy ended up being
delayed by three years. When he eventually got back home to his wife she opened his suitcase
to find that nothing inside has been touched. She asked him why and he replied that he had just
been practising Taiji continuously all day and all night. He just slept when he was tired and as
soon as he woke up he would immediately start training again. He didn’t have any time to open
his suitcase. Another time when Chen Gengyun was working away he and a friend went to see
an outdoor play. There was a big audience and about halfway through the performance a large
group of trouble makers started to push the crowd violently to get to Chen Gengyun to
challenge him to a fight – he was very well known for his Taiji. Chen Gengyun simply stood his
ground and didn’t do a thing. The crowd broke upon him like water flowing around a stone, all
falling to the floor when they tried to shove him or move him. He and his friend made a quick
get-away only to soon be cut off at a bridge over the local river. On the one side was the gang
and on the other Chen Gengyun and his friend. Chen Gengyun told his friend to hold on tightly to
his belt and not to let go under any circumstances. Then suddenly he strode across the bridge
right through the crowd with one arm in front sweeping all those at the front off the bridge and
into the river. Seeing this, all the others behind were scared and ran away.

The 16th generation was Chen Yanxi he was a well known body guard trainer. There are many
stories about him but for another time. The 17thth generation was Chen Fa Ke, my grandfather.
He was very famous. He was well known for his Taiji skills and for being a very good fighter. But
also everyone liked him for having a good heart – he was very humble and always tried to help
people. As well as teaching Taiji, Chen Fa Ke worked for the police in Wenxian helping them
catch bandits. The police would often call for Chen Fa Ke to come and help them and by using
his fierce Qinna he was always able catch and control them.
Another story is that at one time in Wenxian there was a large group of bandits who were part
of a religious cult that believed that they were invincible, that no blade or bullet could hurt
them. They were called the Red Spear Gang and were causing a lot of trouble in the region.
When he’d had enough, the chief of police at Wenxian sent a message asking if Chen Fa Ke
could come and sort them out. Chen Fa Ke agreed and on his way there he was met by the gang
at a large bridge across the river outside Wenxian. Someone had told them that he was coming.
At the front of the crowd was the big boss with a long spear. He said Chen Fa Ke couldn’t come
across and laughed saying that nobody could hurt him or his gang, that no blade or bullet could
pierce them. Chen Fa Ke just stood there calmly, holding his plain wooden staff. Suddenly the big
boss lunged at Chen Fa Ke with his spear. In one very fast movement Chen parried the blow and
hit the boss in the chest with the end of his staff – it went straight through his body and two feet
out the other side. When they saw this the rest of the gang suddenly lost confidence and ran
away, of course they were not invincible after all, and they never came back.
Chen Fa Ke spent 30 years teaching in Beijing. He developed the New Frame (Xinjia) forms, yilu
and erlu. He made the chansigong, the silk-reeling technique, clearer and more intricate and
added more fajin, more spiralling movement and more martial applications.
In the 18th generation there was my father Chen Zhao Xu, and Chen Zhaopi, Chen Zhaokui and
Chen Zhao Chi – all who reached a very high level in Taiji. Chen Zhaopi and Chen Zhaokui were
most well known teachers but it was Chen Zhaoxu and Chen Zhaochi who had the highest level.

The 19th generation is not as good as the previous generations. That is why I always practise
very hard. Before 1980 I spent a lot of time looking for what teachers were left, to find out what
the standard was after my father’s generation. I couldn’t find anything so I just practised very
hard myself. After many years of training, after lots of trial and error, practising hard every day,
trying this and trying that and always asking questions but not being happy with the answers I
eventually discovered the Taiji principle myself during the year 1979-1980. The principle never
changes: one Taiji principle, three kinds of motion. Since 1980, when I’m training, every day
there is less deviation, the principle is clearer and more delicate. Every day my Dantien gets
stronger, my body gets stronger and my Qi is more flowing. So every year since 1980 my Taiji
improves, it only gets better because the principle is now clear. Each year you can see the
difference. If the principle is not clear it is very difficult to improve your Taiji and you don’t know
your deviations.
In 1980 I started working for the Chinese government. They wanted to start to promote Chen
family Taiji to more people. But they said that other martial arts have basic exercises
(Jibengong) and that Taiji is too difficult. I said to them that Laojia yilu is the basic exercise in
Taiji! They said Laojia is too difficult – so from here I developed the silk-reeling exercises to help
people learn Taiji and to make the principle clearer.

Back in the day – serious concentration!

In 1984 I started teaching in Europe and everyone found that Laojia is too difficult. So I
developed the 38 form by taking out most of the repetitions in Laojia…but this was still too long
for people to learn! So then I developed the 19 form and it’s still too long for most people!
People don’t know how to learn… but in any form, in any number of movements it’s always the
same principle: 1 principle, three kinds of motion. From one principle come one thousand
movements.

Master Chen’s hands-on corrections are invaluable

SM: Thanks Master Chen, that’s excellent. Could you tell me a little bit more about Taiji
principles and how to practise?
CXW: OK, no problem. There is just one principle and three kinds of motion. The one principle is
that the whole body moves together following the Dantien. In every movement the whole-body
moves together but the Dantien leads the movement and the whole body must be supported in
all directions. This is very important. One principle, three kinds of motion: the three kinds of
motion are as follows…First, horizontal motion, the Dantien rotates horizontally. The second
kind of motion is vertical motion, the Dantien rotates vertically. The third kind of motion is a
combination of the first two. Any movement that is doesn’t follow the principle is a deviation. So
when we are training every day we are trying to find and reduce our deviations from the Taiji
principle.
Really, it’s impossible to have no deviation at all and one lifetime isn’t enough, but this is the
principle that guides our training. Even the most advanced and precisely engineered machinery
has some deviation. It is just natural to have deviations but as we reduce it everything really
improves, we become stronger, more balanced, more flowing.

Legs cooked- very amusing all round!

SM: Master Chen, after all these years do you still feel like your Taiji is improving?
CXW: Every day. Every day in my training there is less deviation. Every day I have some
questions that I work on and every day some answers. Since 1980 when I discovered the
principle I always improve: more balanced, Dantien stronger, Qi more flowing. Training Taiji is
never ending, there is always more to discover and you can always improve.
SM: Just one last thing Master Chen. What are your hopes for the future of your Taiji?
CXW: After all my decades of training and teaching Taiji I look back and see all the wrong turns I
have made. Now I realise that everything is the same and comes from the same principles. After
all of my experiences I realise that the way is actually from the complicated to the simple. My
purpose is to put signs on all the wrong turns where students can easily lose their way, to make
 the path clearer for them. If I can simply help people improve their Taiji then I will be very happy
and all my wishes will have come true.
SM: That’s great. Thank you very much for your time Master Chen.
Sam Moor teaches Chen Taiji full time across Sussex: http://www.sussextaichi.co.uk
i For more details see: http://www.ciaa.co.uk
Pictures of Master Chen courtesy of WCTAG

Grandmaster Chen Xiao Wang - Part 1In "Chen Taijiquan"

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Taiji Almighty - Training with Chen BingIn "Balance"

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12 Responses to An Interview with Grandmaster Chen Xiao Wang
1. k8macdo says:
Thank you for this! It’s a treasure!
o theinternalathlete says:
Thanks – It’s my pleasure!
2. woden13 says:
May 8, 2016 at 10:45 pm

Reblogged this on The Tiger and The Bear.

o theinternalathlete says:
Thanks!
3. heigou888 says:
To be able to train with such a master- you are one fortunate man! Thanks so much for posting
this interview.
4. Paul Tim Richard says:
This is very good info and Master Chen was gracious to share it so openly. Good (for us all) that
you took the initiative to interview him, too!
o theinternalathlete says:
Thanks! I’m glad you liked it.
5. musingo samson says:
Taiji is beautiful.
6. Pingback: In Tai Chi you have to go down to go up | The Tai Chi Notebook
7. Janice Woody says:
Fascinating to hear him resite the verbal history.
8. Deoanand says:
Namaskar……can somebody teach themselves chen taichi from the videos available ? Chen
being so complicated , is it possible to buy the videos and teach yourself.

It is remarkable how Europe has opened up to other nations culture while here in the
Caribbean people just retaining the old BRITISH norms .Yes ?
o theinternalathlete says:
Thanks for your comment – it’s really difficult to learn from videos. However, there are many
that you can buy online so its worth a try.
Ingo Augsten CXW basically says, that YLC was not that good (only one 6y period, never lost but never
won).

Victor Moroz I understood twice 6y, but not thrice

Ingo Augsten Whats it with "Chen Zhao Xu, and Chen Zhaopi, Chen Zhaokui and Chen Zhao Chi – all who
reached a very high level in Taiji" vs "spent a lot of time looking for what teachers were left, to find out
what the standard was after my father’s generation. I couldn’t find anything so I just practised very hard
myself .. I eventually discovered the Taiji principle myself during the year 1979-1980"?

CXW was taught a little by his father CZX (most probably when he was too young), and a lot by CZP+CZK.
The latter 2 should know "the Taiji principle"? Maybe it took some time to click, but "discover"?

Enrico Marantidis Its not the first time this has been mentioned . A lost in translation thing maybe?

Ingo Augsten Maybe they could all do it, but not explain it? I myself could never get any good, if I don't
understand what I do (just like CXW explains - deviation from principle).

John Prince Ingo He said once in Switzerland that CZP was not top level (CZP apparently told him
something was missing in CXW's taiji but he [CZP] was not good enough to help him with it). He also
said, as in the article, that CZK was not as good as Chen Zhaoxu and CZL's father... FWIW...

Bob Stapleton A bit of family revisionism maybe? CZL found it by himself too? I've heard YLC referred to
as 'invincible' so kinda wonder...

Bob Stapleton Actually after re reading the bit about YLC, it says he came back for a second 6 years, not
for a third one though.