Wing Chun

January 20 at 5:47 AM

In regards to alignment, body mechanics, and power generation (engine), What's the difference
between Chen Taiji vs. Old Yang taiji?

Alfonso Adriasola curious as to the source of the diagrams. Id argue they are both wrong.

Tin Tran That diagram doesn't tell anyone how to do anything, unfortunately. It would be interesting to
see diagram's source perform his/her understanding of fajin on video.

Mike Sigman My impression is also that whoever did the graph and comments simply didn't know what
they were talking about. I'm not even sure what "Old Yang" is. Yang Lu Chan studied and taught the
Chen-style Taijiquan, so the "Old Yang" *should* be the Chen-style, but usually "Old Yang" means some
outlaw, cobbled-together BS that is supposed to be secret, yet "original". I.e., made for the gullible who
have no idea of the real core concepts of what Taijiquan are.

Mike Sigman BTW, Wing Chun, if whoever devised that diagram with the silly mathematical constructs
wants to come on this forum and teach a bunch of engineer-martial-artists the True Way (tm) of doing
things, please invite them.

Franc Smash That would be Hendrik santo surely. If he comes to this forum could someone ask him to
unblock me #thanks!

Stephen Choe Franc Smash unblock me too

Mike Sigman Many of the "experts" of the Chinese martial-arts are mainly amateurs with very little self-
perception of how little they know. As a good Chinese friend of mine in the Chinese martial-arts once
noted, anyone can pretend to be an expert, but they can only fool beginners. Hendrik Santos is one of
those amateurs pretending to be an expert. He can preach to the beginners, but he wouldn't last more
than a day or two on this forum. I'm not sure what that says for the WC guys who believe what he says
... then again, I don't really care that much. Every man for himself. Don't look for a god; look for your
own answers.

Franc Smash Hendrik is mostly rejected by 80% of the wing chun people. The reason being he has never
been able to demonstrate his theories.

Franc Smash The other 20% are very aggressive people.....

Stephen Choe Franc Smash stupid too

Franc Smash nothing worse!

Stephen Choe Franc Smash true

Mike Sigman Yet Hendrik has a number of loyal followers in the WC community, Franc. However, I
would never encourage anyone to sway from their own beliefs. ;)

Franc Smash Mike, wing chun has enormous levels of politics mostly generated by people who run
schools and have the secret wing chun sauce that the rest of us don’t

Franc Smash Wing Chun politics must be a headache to other arts out there

Mike Sigman Franc, a number of us on this forum watched the conversations of the WC enthusiasts on
the old rec.martial-arts newsgroup, back in the early 1990's. WC enthusiasts long ago established
themselves to the outside world. ;)

Franc Smash Hahahaha hahahaha!

James Kirkcaldy This is Hendricks stuff Wing Chun (Navin)? I would like to say this. On the kung fu mag
forums it was me that privately told Hendrik all the way back then that he had to start using the terms
from mechanics and physics including torsion, momentum, rotational momentum etc., over the aloof
terms he was using at the time. Back then a bio mechanics approach was not something he had done or
really spoke about. I think my online name there or back then was Paddington. So, I am very familiar
with analyses like this. When I have looked at Mike Sigman 's material and some of the video clips
posted, I would have to say that the rotational forces are there in the movement shown. On a final note
the math analysis is missing a lot as there is no reference to the rotational part (lower case omega
symbol) and quite a bit else. Of course I could be mistaken so what is the context of that slide Navin?

Franc Smash Yup, thought so. Unfortunately Hendrik doesn’t understand mechanics, so his analyses are
always incomplete or incorrect, I’ve pointed this out to him also and that’s why he blocked me.

James Kirkcaldy The scenario isn't defined in that diagram / schematic so it is very hard for me to
comment. Perhaps Navin, or Wing Chun , can clarify for us?
Dan Lam at the risk of getting involved in yet another ot wc discussion, i feel certain things need to be
said. what hendrik says and what his followers say should be separated. i don't follow his exploits online
but i know some of his followers have their ownreputation. i have met the gentleman several times
many years ago and he was kind enough to pay for my meals on 2 or 3 occasions. even though i am
unable to understand what he says at least 90% of the time, i do know his views come from his own
interpretation of old texts. whether he's correct or not i cannot say.
you have to understand the old writings were done in a time and culture where the language and
terminology they used made sense to the people of that era. qi, for example, to them meant something
very concrete and specific. sadly this is no longer true so most people in the modern era are just
guessing at what the written words mean. i confess that i, having grown up in a westernized
environment, haven't done as much studying of the old texts, and hence really am not familiar enough
with the old world view to be able to properly interpret the old writings. i won't go as far as mike to
simply declare them as general sayings with no useful information, but i consider them as encrypted
texts where the keys are lost, and it's better to start from scratch and rediscover them using the
scientific method.
consider this: if you say "pearl harbor" (2 words) or "911" (just a number) to an average teenager, it
would mean little to nothing other than some historical events. but to many americans born before
1980, it would immediately evoke many mental images, associated emotions, and a whole lot more. and
that's just encrypted information from a couple of words or a number. imagine what kind of information
is contained in an entire book.
hendrik is, i think, some kind of hardware engineer. i would imagine he would know a little bit of
physics. but like i said, his theories comes from his interpretation of old texts, and not from a physics
context directly. i am not sure he understands taiji, based on a short clip of what he showed on a video.
he's not as good as he thinks, but he's not as bad as a lot of people think. a lot of the flak he caught
online comes from his inability to communicate properly with his audience. of course he has a few
idiosyncrasies and odd behaviors of his own, so do the rest of us.

James Kirkcaldy I am not saying he does not have redeeming features just that he was not even talking
about the use of bio mechanics until he was advised to. I even had to correct him as to the different
meanings as to the word 'bow' in English.

Mike Sigman Dan Lam, I glanced at the picture and saw an obvious attempt to do a very childish
comparison of the Chen's way of generating power versus a supposed ideal of the Yang way of
generating power (bow, arrow, string, etc.). It was laughable. "Like releasing an arrow" is common to
both Chen and Yang, so whoever was doing the talking was completely clueless.

Normally I'd block this discussion because it's gotten O.T., but people are actually telling me a lot by the
way they're responding, so I'm just watching the thread. ;) If it was Hendricks that did the diagram, he
needs to stop while he's behind. I have yet to see a video of his that indicated he had any real idea about
CMA body mechanics, but of course YMMV.
Wing Chun Franc Smash said "That would be Hendrik santo surely. If he comes to this forum could
someone ask him to unblock me #thanks Unfortunately Hendrik doesn’t understand mechanics, so his
analyses are always incomplete or incorrect, I’ve pointed this out to him also and that’s why he blocked
me.Hendrik is mostly rejected by 80% of the wing chun people. The reason being he has never been able
to demonstrate his theories.The other 20% are very aggressive people"

Mike Sigman said "Hendrik Santos is one of those amateurs pretending to be an expert. He can preach
to the beginners, but he wouldn't last more than a day or two on this forum. I'm not sure what that says
for the WC guys who believe what he says ... then again, I don't really care that much. Yet Hendrik has a
number of loyal followers in the WC community, Franc. However, I would never encourage anyone to
sway from their own beliefs."

James Kirkcaldy said "This is Hendricks stuff Wing Chun (Navin)? I would like to say this. On the kung fu
mag forums it was me that privately told Hendrik all the way back then that he had to start using the
terms from mechanics and physics including torsion, momentum, rotational momentum etc., over the
aloof terms he was using at the time. Back then a bio mechanics approach was not something he had
done or really spoke about. I think my online name there or back then was Paddington. So, I am very
familiar with analyses like this. When I have looked at Mike Sigman 's material and some of the video
clips posted, I would have to say that the rotational forces are there in the movement shown. On a final
note the math analysis is missing a lot as there is no reference to the rotational part (lower case omega
symbol) and quite a bit else. Of course I could be mistaken so what is the context of that slide Navin?"

Wow! you guys sure have alot of build up animosity and preconceived notion towards Hendrik Santo lol.
I got the diagram off of the link below and was curious what your views were on it. Instead you just used
it as an opportunity to attack Hendrik Santo when he had absolutely nothing to do with the original
post. https://www.facebook.com/groups/214522499092029/permalink/407873329756944/

Manage
Steve Higgins to Taijiquan "One Family" Mission

January 8 at 5:26 AM

Our workshop Sunday went well. The help from list-members with regard to formulae is much
appreciated!

Here's a shot of the graphic developed for the afternoon. What it doesn't communicate is that these two
models are not discrete but additive one to the other. Chen vs. O.Y. is more a matter of focus.

James Kirkcaldy Are you collecting this for someone else Navin? I say that because this looks like a mis
post and I have screenshot it.

James Kirkcaldy Well it does look like his material, very much so and people asked you.I even said I could
be mistaken.

Mike Sigman Sorry ... I was taking the guesses about a Wing Chun guy from Wing Chun guys. Wing Chun,
I have no animus toward Santos, but he still doesn't know what he's talking about, so this picture could
very easily be something that he did.

I have no idea who Steve Higgins is, either, but if he's trying to explain things about the Chen style and
the Yang style, he's already established that he doesn't really know much about either one of them.
Reading the thread in question, he pretty much admits that he doesn't really understand basic physics,
so the diagrams, etc., were apparently just window-dressing. Nothing has really changed: a lot of people
have assumed the role of "teachers" in the CMA's when they really don't know much.

Franc Smash Navin, as a disciple of Hendrik, what is your interest in the 6H page? As we all know
Hendrik likes to collect information from many sources and then repackage them as his iyikkam
iwingchun system

James Kirkcaldy Navin ( Wing Chun ) and I have spoken over private messages (I like Navin) and one day I
showed him a page from 2e of this book https://www.amazon.co.uk/Athletic-Ability.../dp/0723433860.
It concerned the foot bow and is 1 to 1 the same as Hendrik's exposition. On the same page it mentions
using a balance ball to better coordination and here I would like to point out how CSL (Chu Sau Lei)
would use balance equipment to practice just that ( bosu ball). I recommended that book to Hendrik
way back and only linked the two, the anatomy of the foot on that page and on the same page reference
to balance equipment and what CSL would demonstrate with bosu balls, later on. Navin said to me that
he was sorry on others' behalf that research I had done got used with no credit. I am fine with that
and Mike Sigman I am OT as they say but at least now it is in the open. For the record I trained with
some CSL folk a lot and one guy I hugely respect in particular and won't name as he is a good man. We
used some playground equipment (planks of wood on chains) where balance was tested and connected
and yes, I stood firm whilst they didn't but that means nothing really.

AMAZON.CO.UK

Athletic Ability and the Anatomy of Motion, 3e

Franc Smash James yup heard all about the bosu ball from Alan Orc but didn’t realise that it came from
Hendrik which came from you and that book! Cheers for the history!

James Kirkcaldy Franc Smash it is my supposition given Hendrik's analysis of the foot bow, the same
images and what Navin said and having looked at the CSL stuff (and trained with them) and the ties with
Hendrik (they have distanced themselves now).

James Kirkcaldy p.s. that was a book reference I shared many years ago as Paddington on the kung fu
mag forums before Hendrik talked of mechanics and others started training that way.

Wing Chun Franc Smash said "Navin, as a follower of Hendrik, what is your interest in the 6H page? As
we all know Hendrik likes to collect information from many sources and then repackage them as his
iyikkam iwingchun system"
I've been in wing chun for over 26 years. I originally learnt Yip Man wing chun and was certified as a sifu
in that linage, then I went out to explore other interpretations of what Yip Man taught to his various 1st
generation students, as well as other mainland China Branches of the art including Yuen Kay Shan, Kulo
Pin Sun wck, Fut Sao wck, and Yik Kam wck under Hendrik Santo etc.

So as you can see I am not a sole follower or "devotee" of Hendrik Santo. So be careful! you know what
they say about assumptions lol!

Along my martial arts journey, I started to discover certain internal aspects hidden within the wing chun
system, and Hendrik Santo gave me valuable missing details and insights based on the yik Kam wck kuen
kuit which allowed me to see how all the pieces fit together. For that I am forever greatful to him.

I am interested in the internal arts and since I've had some good discussions with Mike Sigman in the
past, I joined the 6H page. what is your interest in the 6H page?

James Kirkcaldy Wing Chun I can verify what Navin is saying here Franc Smash regarding Hendrik and
attitudes towards him.

Franc Smash Navin why someone would keep changing lineages doesn’t make sense to me? I started in
karate which wasn’t for me, then kickboxing, then LHBF which I found boring at the time until I met a
JKD teacher and trained with him, where I was exposed to wing chun and have been training only in
foshan and CST lineages I needed to change lineage only because of location. Now I’ve picked up Italian
renaissance weapons and knightly combat. The reason I’m on this page is that someone showed Mike
my videos and he said it was interesting to se a wing chun guy display Jin and I remembered watching
Mikes great videos years ago so I was very interested to hear what he has to say. I thought I was doing
6H already and that it was a linear concept but I was wrong.

Franc Smash James sorry mate I didn’t understand your meaning

Wing Chun Franc Smash said "Navin why someone would keep changing lineages doesn’t make sense to
me?"

No-one nor wck linage should have a patent on learning lol! For me it's not about changing my linage, I
practice the martial art known as wing chun, and I see all it's branches under one umbrella as one big
family. Once one has developed a good foundation in one linage, I see no reason why they couldn't build
upon that. For me it's about developing specific skill-sets. For example every wck linage I explored had a
specific skill-set which they specialized in, so in order to become a more well rounded wing chun person,
I sought out those branches of wing chun which I had an interest in, to focus on developing those
specific skill-sets within my own personal expression of wing chun.

Alfonso Adriasola this posting has been a royal waste of time. we can see the typical thought process of
defenders of the master once again. not a little bit of on topic discussion.

Mike Sigman Alfonso, that is why most of the "secrets" on this forum are safe. Unless the teacher
they're loyal to tells them the same thing, most "followers" will never bother to give it much thought.

Franc Smash So let’s get the discussion back on topic. What do the pictures signify? A can and a bow and
arrow 🏹

Mike Sigman It's a Foster's, not a can. A Fozzie is more powerful than a bow and arrow.

Jeffrey Smoley Mike Sigman I remember you praising Coors a while back.

Mike Sigman Not me. I pronounce it "Sewers".

Grant Beachley Foster's is what is sold to the tourists. You can't think we'd show the national
treasures. 😉

Francisco Ferreira Open, close

Spiral, circle
Add up, down, left, right
Footwork + handwork
😁👍🏽☯️💪🏽