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Interview with Jamal Nasir, President, Pakistan

Society for Human Resources Management

Article · December 2015

DOI: 10.1177/2322093715603285

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Practitioner Perspective Section

Interview with Jamal Nasir, South Asian Journal of Human

Resources Management
President, Pakistan Society 2(2) 216–223
2015 SAGE Publications India
for Human Resources Private Limited
SAGE Publications
Management sagepub.in/home.nav
DOI: 10.1177/2322093715603285
http://hrm.sagepub.com

Mir Mohammed Nurul Absar1

Pakistan Society for Human Resource Management (PSHRM) was founded in 2004.
It is committed to providing leadership in HR excellence. It is the apex professional
association for HR practitioners in Pakistan. PSHRM aspires to maintain high
standards of professionalism in human resource management and development.
Mr Jamal Nasir has been serving as the President of PSHRM since 2012. He has over
25 years of professional experience at home and abroad. He is currently the Head of
Human and Organizational Development at Habib Bank Limited (HBL), Pakistan’s
largest bank. Prior to joining HBL, he worked as the Group Executive HR for United
Bank Limited (UBL), Pakistan, Head of HR for South Asia and South East Asia for
Standard Chartered Bank, Country Head of HR for ABN AMRO Bank, Pakistan,
and in various HR and Engineering roles with Exxon Chemical. Mr Nasir earned a
BSc in Electrical Engineering from the University of Texas, USA, and an MBA from
the Institute of Business Administration (IBA), Karachi.
In this wide-ranging interview, Mr Nasir talks about HR-related developments,
trends, and their implications; the evolution of HRM in Pakistan and its associated
issues, challenges, and strategies; the role of government and professional bodies
in national human resource development; influence of national culture; promoting
gender equality, and the future outlook for HRM in Pakistan.

What is your perspective on the changing business scenario at the

national, regional and international levels?
Let me start the other way around. Internationally, I think the economic growth
rates globally will remain low. Uncertainties will prevail. I expect to see economic
flashpoints in various countries like Greece, Portugal and Spain. I think we will
continue to live in that uncertainty where something can erupt in one part of the
world and it will have an impact all across the world. Unemployment rates will
continue to linger where they are now globally.

1
School of Business, Chittagong Independent University, Bangladesh.

Corresponding author:
Mir Mohammed Nurul Absar, School of Business, Chittagong Independent University, Chittagong,
Bangladesh.
E-mail: nabsar@ciu.edu.bd

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Absar 217

What I see going forward as far as the challenges and changing business envi-
ronment, is that there will be more government regulations. So, we need to be
ready and prepared for a lot more regulations as governments will want to main-
tain control and keep things running. This will also have implications on how HR
is going to be managed. We need to be proactive as an HR function to understand
what implications these regulations have on employees in an organization, and
make sure that we are aligned with them.
As far as regions are concerned, I expect to see higher growth rates in the gross
domestic product (GDP). India is at around 7 per cent, Bangladesh around 6 per
cent and Pakistan is moving towards 5 per cent. These growth rates are relatively
good. The implication is that a lot of focus will be within the country rather than
outside. Products and services will need to be designed more for internal con-
sumption than external. Unless the global economies pick up, the regional econo-
mies will be unable to show their potential. This will remain a challenge for the
regional countries in South East Asia.
As far as Pakistan is concerned, in relation to what I stated, regionally with a
180 million population and a growing middle class, a lot of focus will need to be
on the internal consumption. As more investment goes into power infrastructure,
the small to medium enterprise (SME) sector will blossom. My view is that unless
we have a vibrant SME sector, unemployment rates will not go down, develop-
ment of national resources will not happen, and the economy will not pick up. The
shift will be away from large corporates, and the government will have to put
efforts into providing power and infrastructure for the SME sector. That is the
change I see going forward as far as the economy is concerned.

How do you see Pakistan’s economy evolving as part of the emerging

markets?
The economic fundamentals are strong. Inflation is at a 12 year low. Interest rates
are at a 24 year low and the stock market has been close to historical highs. The
basic indicators are good. Exports are growing and so are the foreign exchange
reserves. We are getting not as much foreign direct investment as we should, but it
is still sizeable. The recent focus around China wanting to invest in the infrastruc-
ture projects in Pakistan has the potential for the economy to take off. Something
that has been restraining this, however, is the security situation we have within the
country. That is something that has to be worked on. I see improvements coming
around with a lot of actions taken by the Army and the Government. I am optimistic
that things will continue to improve. GDP growth will increase and with a very
strong technology base, we will position ourselves to take off as the global economy
starts to improve. I am optimistic about the future of the Pakistani economy.

If you were to look at Pakistani human resources management 10 years

before, now and 10 years from now, what are the defining features?
There has been a lot of change. Ten years ago, there were fewer individuals and profes-
sionals who managed HR the way it needs to be. I am seeing continuous improvement.

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218 South Asian Journal of Human Resources Management 2(2)

The other positive I have observed is that a lot of large local organizations and SME
sector companies are being managed by the individuals who have worked, lived and
studied abroad, and have brought back best practices. I see a positive change in this as
they want a professional HR. Previously, the family enterprises were running the
businesses and the “seth” (owner) wanted to control everything, run everything,
decided what to pay and whom to hire. There is a shift in that. That is very important.
Youth is coming through, and a lot of them are seeing HR as a solid career profession
to take.
Going forward, as I look at the next 10 years, it is going to be a critical and
defining phase for the HR function in Pakistan. We need to attract young talent,
harness and develop them, and be able to employ them right. If we get this wrong,
then we have a disgruntled youth with degrees but no jobs. We need to get them
ready to be employable. That is going to have a lot of implications for organiza-
tions deciding whom to employ. We, for example, are keen to set up an institute for
people who are interested to work in the financial sector. It can offer six months
and/or one year programmes focussed on banking products. When the banks want
to hire, they can pick up those who already understand banking products.
The Government has to play a role, but it is important for large organizations to
play a role as well. HR will have to step up and create opportunities for the youth
coming through. As we continue to globalize, it is very important for HR to have
a cutting edge, and to ensure that we are developing employees who are capable of
competing with any other sector in Pakistan or internationally. Because of this, as
far as the HR function in Pakistan is concerned, the next 10 years are going to be
very important and critical.

Does Pakistani government have any national policy for HR development?

The Government has developed a policy, however, when it comes to execution, it
becomes a matter of priorities. You have limited resources, and with governments,
at times, the main focus is on the now, rather than what needs to happen in the next
10 to 20 years. As we have only had one elected government that has completed
its full term of five years in our 68 year history, the governments take decisions
that show immediate results. HR development, however, is a very long-term pro-
cess. When I look at the 56 per cent of the population that currently is under
24 years of age, my concern is that with this youth bulge coming through, it will
be imperative for the government and organizations to create employment oppor-
tunities. The government needs to assess the skills and expertise that will be
required in Pakistan and abroad in the next 10 to 20 years and develop curriculum
and programmes to make the population more relevant. As such, such programmes
take years to pay dividends; the government’s policy has to be long term.

How is Pakistan placed in preparing graduates specialising in Human

Resources Management?
Institutes have started to offer diploma, undergraduate and postgraduate degrees
majoring in HRM in the last four to five years. It is more a result of the interest

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Absar 219

shown by the younger professionals wanting to get into HR roles and careers. It is
primarily a demand led situation rather than the institutes’ view on HRM’s growth
or future significance. Whether all the institutes offering these degrees have the
optimal curriculum and instructional capability, I am not sure. However, improve-
ment is definitely required. Our society, PSHRM, is working with the IBA–one of
Pakistan’s premier business schools–to define the HR curriculum, programme
content, and to identify HR professionals who can teach. We have been in talks
with other premier schools like Lahore University of Management Sciences
(LUMS) and Karachi School of Business and Leadership as well for similar
support. We try and provide practical advice to the universities to ensure that the
students get information and learn skills that they will practically need in their
HR careers. We at the society feel this is a very critical initiative to not only attract
more people into this profession, but also to train the existing ones.

Do you think national culture plays a vital role in human resources

management? If so, how the Pakistani culture has shaped and influ-
enced human resource development in Pakistan?
It does; however, within Pakistan, we have a lot of diverse cultures in itself. Just
to give you an example, the business culture in Pakistan’s two main cities: Karachi
and Lahore is very different. In Karachi, people would be very transaction-
oriented in the sense that they will come into the bank, get their work done urgently
and leave. In Lahore, however, the psyche is very different. They will come into
the branch, want to sit down and have a chat with the Branch Manager over a cup
of tea, want to talk about politics, etc. and then complete their transaction.
It is important from the HR perspective to be able to understand those vari-
ations and differences, and ensure that the staff also understands them. If we
were to transfer someone from Karachi to Lahore, it is very important for us to
ensure that the cultural sensitivities are understood by the employee, particularly
in terms of what implications it has on managing customer relationships.
We also have a lot of family-owned businesses in Pakistan, which are either
large local corporates or SMEs. The economic growth going forward will be led
by these businesses to quite an extent. It is important to train and guide the SME
sector in Pakistan for them to understand the benefits of having professional
and structured HR practices. It is difficult for the family businesses to let go of
direct influence and thus, their management and HR practices also reflect this.
The national culture also has an impact on the work ethics. For example, take an
average worker—his or her productivity inside Pakistan will be considerably less
compared to his productivity in the Middle East. The natural psyche in the country
is that things will work at their own pace, which permeates the thought process in
the workforce as well. It is important that the positive aspects of culture are built
on, and the elements which are not very conducive are overcome.

What influence does national culture have on specific HR practices?

I think there is a strong implication of that as well. For example, in a number of
local organizations, the promotions are based not just on performance, but also on

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220 South Asian Journal of Human Resources Management 2(2)

how many years you have been in that job/company. This is again cultural and a
lot due to respect for elders. This is also extremely prevalent, for example in South
Korea. Unless you are a certain age, it is very difficult to expect to become a
Branch Manager in a bank. You cannot have more senior or older people in the
branch than you. These cultural aspects are an important HR issue.
The challenge for HR around performance discussions, where people struggle
to give a feedback which may not be construed as positive, is also very critical.
Helping employees improve by giving them constructive feedback may be per-
ceived as the supervisor not liking the individual. There are issues associated with
this as well as in cultures where direct constructive feedback is not normally
given, especially to those who are older. Whether it is promotions, salary increases
or performance management process, there are huge cultural implications.
In the US, it is very black and white. One gets instant feedback from the Line
Manager and if he does not rectify the issues, he has to move on. Here, however,
asking someone to leave the organization due to performance issues becomes very
difficult. We, in HR, have to keep working at it and slowly change the mindsets.

What do you think about the women workforce in your country?

In the urban areas, it is considerably low in numbers. The percentage of women who
work in the rural areas, however, is quite high as a number of them work on the lands
and farms. The low female employment numbers are, to some extent, due to religious
beliefs as well. You will generally see a higher female working percentage in India
as compared to what you would see in Pakistan or Bangladesh. In Pakistan, female
employment is around 11 per cent, which is quite low. Furthermore, one does not
see many females in senior roles. We will need to focus on gender balance and have
focussed programmes at both the governmental as well as organizational levels.
Recently in our bank, we initiated a programme on gender sensitivity in collabo-
ration with IFC and we plan to put around three to four thousands of our staff through
those workshops to train them to understand why it is important to have diversity
and gender balance within the organization, and how best to leverage it. We have to
break the mould of “if you don’t think like me, I don’t need you.” We need to get all
staff, both male and female, to understand that they both may have different ways
of thinking and doing things. We also need to get staff to understand the financial
case for having more female customers. I strongly believe that gender balance and
equality are very critical areas as we go forward. It will, however, continue to be
a challenge, as 56 per cent of our population comprises of youth, and when you
have a large population ready to enter the workforce and do not have enough jobs, the
preference will go to males. It is important for organizations in Pakistan to sensitize
staff about the need to enhance both gender as well as other forms of diversity.

What do you think is the primary role of national HR professional and

industry bodies, such as Pakistan Society for Human Resources
Management in developing human resources in Pakistan?
Bodies like PSHRM can contribute at various levels. If you consider the highest
level, trying to influence national policy and helping the policy-makers in the

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Absar 221

Government with advice on what we as HR professionals think, is the right way

forward. The other main role, I would say, is building HR capacity and capability
in Pakistan. We want to be focused on developing a base where we have a large
number of HR professionals available in the market who not just drive change, but
also are able to implement professional HR practices in organizations. One way to
do this is to work with educational institutions in helping them with the curri-
culum, case studies and identifying HR practitioners who can teach.
Two more things are important. Firstly, it is important to have a nationally
recognized HR certification process because it helps employers to be sure that an
individual with a recognized certification has a certain level of knowledge and
skill. The other is sharing best practices. Some of the large organizations and
multinationals have very advanced HR practices. It is important for us to share
this with organizations that do not have the resources to enable them to benefit
from them. PSHRM has a process whereby we give free advice and assistance
to any organization or institution which are interested in improving their HR
practices. Thus, the role of national societies is to raise the level of HR competence
in the country.

How frequently do you arrange workshops and continuous profes-

sional development programmes, and how are you partnering with
national and international professional bodies?
We run one large conference every year. It is normally around the theme of HR,
leadership or management practices. Furthermore, every six weeks, we run sessions
for the heads of HR and their direct reports. We feel that the second HR leadership
tier is critical to develop as they are, on the ground, the main agents who drive
change. It is important for us to educate and develop this tier. We are talking to a
number of foreign HR societies to collaborate and share best practices with.
Furthermore, we are also working with the Chartered Institute of Personnel and
Development (CIPD), and an affiliate of Society for Human Resource Management
(SHRM), which has a new HR certification curriculum and process. As a society,
whilst most large organizations are our members, when we conduct workshops
and seminars, we open them up to everyone. We want to be able to develop and
guide non-members as well.

What are the key HR strategies or differentiators that will overcome

current business or economic challenges facing organizations?
I see three areas that HR will need to put increasing focus on. First is how quickly
organizations can embrace technology. In Pakistan, with a very high mobile
phone penetration rate, organizations will need to leverage this technological
advantage. This has an implication on HR in terms of the kind of staff we hire
and develop, and how we encourage them to embrace technology. The second
differentiator is going to be embracing diversity, not just gender balance but
diversity in general, and have an inclusive culture. With divisions on ethnic,
religious and gender lines, it will be critical for organizations to guide and train

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222 South Asian Journal of Human Resources Management 2(2)

staff in being inclusive. The third differentiator is going to be developing our youth.
Organizations that can select and identify the right young talent and harness
their capabilities are going to succeed. So, technology, diversity, and youth are
going to be the key differentiators for organizations in Pakistan in the next five
to ten years.

What similarities and differences do you see in human resources

management in the South Asian region?
The demographics are quite similar. Culturally, the countries in South Asia are not
very different either. The third common element is the growing middle class.
Obviously, as India is very large and global, they are also considerably ahead in
HRM practices. It is important for Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Pakistan along with
other countries to learn from India because they have HR practices in relatively
similar cultural settings and somewhat similar thought processes. So, there are
more similarities than differences. I, however, don’t think we leverage enough in
terms of learning from India, or each other for that matter.

This century is often referred to as the Asian Century. If true, what

implications do you see for international human resources
management?
When I look at Asia, three countries stand out: Greater China, India and Indonesia.
It is these three countries, which are going to lead Asia this century. They are
growing economies and will have a huge need for talent. Unless employees are
able to speak Chinese or Bahasa, it is going to be difficult to operate with custo-
mers in the Chinese and Indonesian markets. There is a lot of interest from China
in investing in infrastructure projects in Pakistan, and as a result, we now have a
number of Chinese organizations coming to operate in Pakistan. The implication
is that for example, in the bank, not only do we have a team of Chinese speaking
relationship managers but we also employ some Chinese students who are studying
in Pakistan. As more and more Chinese companies come into Pakistan, that need
is going to grow. How will we be able to cope with that growth? They think differ-
ently. They speak differently. Their management practices are different. We have
to be able to adapt to those, and be able to understand their psyche. That is going to
be critical.
When you look at Asia, we have a relatively young population and that has
implications in terms of selection, development, having the right universities and
infrastructure in the countries to be able to develop that talent.
As Asia continues to grow, our challenge will be to retain our best talent. We will
continue to lose top talent to other countries as Asia keeps growing. Generally, a great
number of Bangladeshis, Indians, Pakistanis, and Sri Lankans are very keen to go
and work abroad. As the economies grow in size, the need for a trained workforce
will continue to increase. This will have increasing implications on the South Asian
countries. Employees in developed countries will also require increasing number of
staff that has the ability to work in the large and growing Asian economies.

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 Absar 223

What do you think is the biggest strength of Pakistani firms going

global and the biggest challenges they have to internationalize their
operations?
One of the biggest strengths we have in Pakistan is its workforce that already
works abroad. This provides strong connections for the Pakistani-based organiza-
tions and the countries where the Pakistanis work. A number of large Pakistani
manufacturing and financial services companies have gone regional and global.
This is because of the strong pipeline of engineers and bankers that Pakistan has
produced. So, our human resources will be the basis on which the local companies
will go global.
One of the bigger challenges we currently face domestically is the security
situation. Unless we can manage the security situation, it is going to be very chal-
lenging for a number of companies going global. Despite this, however, a number
of people working abroad want to return. As more of these people, who have
worked abroad and understand the international markets return, they will be able
to create a global mindset for Pakistan.
Other key comparative advantages we currently have are technology and low
labour cost. We need to able to manage and continue to sustain this cost base.
If we become expensive, as far as human resources are concerned, we stand to
lose that competitive advantage.
Pakistanis are also very entrepreneurial and we need to be able to harness this
by continuing to inculcate a culture of innovation. With a well-educated English
speaking workforce, which is technology savvy and innovative, Pakistani compa-
nies are well positioned to go global. Their challenge is to ensure that they develop
a global mindset for which they require latest and state of the art HR and manage-
ment practices.
The basics are in place but going forward, talent, technology-orientation, inno-
vation, and an international mindset are going to be critical for more Pakistani
organizations going global.

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