Vosse 1969 Interviewthread

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harveyw Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 5:37 pm
I recently spied this on ebay. Didn't win it, but I was wondering if it had been documented or reprinted elsewhere. It
doesn't appear to be in LLVS, or referred to in Dom's recent tome. But maybe it's all common knowledge.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6960002328&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1
Very tempting cover, no?
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Posts: 151
Location: london, england
bicyclerider Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 5:59 pm
I emailed the winner and requested a transcript or scan of the interview. Hopefully he'll be willing, and we can get
Joined: 26 Feb 2004 the interview posted here.
Posts: 542
harveyw Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 4:52 am
Great idea. Did you get any response?
Joined: 26 Feb 2004

Posts: 151
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bicyclerider Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 10:16 am
Yes, he seemed willing but it may take a while for him to get the magazines and then copy them or transcribe
Joined: 26 Feb 2004 interview. I'll try and email him again in a couple of weeks.
Posts: 542
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BC Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 3:19 pm
Let us know. I'd be willing to contribute to the guy's winning bid costs to actually get a color scan of the cover and the
Joined: 06 Mar 2004 interview inside.
Posts: 1095
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Nobody Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:09 am
Lou sent these along for me to host and post -- some EXTREMELY, EXTREMELY revelatory stuff in here, in this telling
Joined: 15 Jul 2003 and very forthcoming interview with Mike Vosse from 1969, I believe.
Posts: 3034
Read, and let's discuss, because there's some HIGHLY intriguing items in there!
http://www.thesmileshop.net/images/Fusion_01.jpg
Guest Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:26 am
Thanks dr Hunt -
do they come out readable when printed? Or do you have to perform a trick first? They erm... diminish in size when
loaded fully...
But again, thanks.
rayray Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:31 am
Prof. Souris P.-Flogiston wrote:
Thanks dr Hunt -
do they come out readable when printed? Or do you have to perform a trick first? They erm... diminish in size when
loaded fully...
But again, thanks.
Joined: 21 Jul 2003

Posts: 184 That sounds like your browser resizing them automatically. Try clicking on the "enlarge" button at the bottom right of
Location: London, UK
the image.
Guest Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:33 am
rayray wrote:
Prof. Souris P.-Flogiston wrote:
Thanks dr Hunt -
do they come out readable when printed? Or do you have to perform a trick first? They erm... diminish
in size when loaded fully...
But again, thanks.
That sounds like your browser resizing them automatically. Try clicking on the "enlarge" button at the bottom ri
of the image.
2 of 4 10/24/2005 2:33 PM
OK thanks!
Mitchell Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:41 am
Oh, I'll be excited to read these later! I can't now, sadly...
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Charles LePage's Eye Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:42 am

Site Admin
First thing that caught my eye: Cabinessence on 20/20 was a new recording? If that's true, who were the musicians?
Joined: 15 Jul 2003 Who produced it? Did Brian okay the new recording?
Posts: 727
Location: Florida
rayray Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:44 am
Jon Hunt wrote:
Read, and let's discuss, because there's some HIGHLY intriguing items in there!
Prayer *ending* the album after Surf's Up, for example!? This kind of makes sense to me, actually.
Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 184
Location: London, UK
Quote:
Joined: 15 Jul 2003
Posts: 3034 Cabinessence on 20/20 was a new recording?
I think he means, although I might be reading into it, that the VOCALS are a new recording...which they are. He
mentions elsewhere in the piece that the original intention was to have Dennis sing the song. The backing track in
that song is mono, I do believe, so if he's talking about stereo/new recording he's likely referring to the vocals.
Which, as I've said before, I believe have been 100% re-recorded from the 60s versions, having A/Bed them many
times.
So...what about this idea that Brian was going to construct a SONG out of the water recordings that they'd done??
That's VERY interesting, isn't it?
Jeff Mason Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:05 am
My most interesting take on this is the confirmation of things said by both Peter and Cam. Vosse lays some blame on
Murry for a lot, and refers to the tension within the group. Vosse also says that Brian and VDP had some serious
issues in their relationship (a Cam point), which was exploited by the group to their advantage (a Dan point). Also
interesting to hear that Barnyard and Woodshop were all mixed together with the Sunshine portion. That proves to me
that A) these were intended to be more than mere songs and B) the final lineup wasn't finished.
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3 of 4 10/24/2005 2:33 PM
Yes, the bits about Barnyard, OMP, and Friday Night were VERY intersting. I don't know what to make of that one. It's
Joined: 15 Jul 2003 certainly very intriguing, isn't it??
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Huh.
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Rockster Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:09 am
I understand it like Dennis was planned to sing "Cabinessence" all alone. But I don't think that Vosse is referring to the "cabinessence" we all know now. He
says Dennis was supposed to do this "funky cat up in the mountains"-thing singing to a girl. The "funky-cat" part reminded me of "truck driving man", the
singing to a girl of course would be "You are my sunshine".
_________________
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Posts: 74 Van Dyke Parks, 2000
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But, I mean -- this song constructed out of water tapes -- was that going to be "Water" from The Elements? Perhaps??
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Rockster Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:16 am
Jon Hunt wrote:
But, I mean -- this song constructed out of water tapes -- was that going to be "Water" from The Elements? Perhaps??
Wasn't there talk about an album full of water sounds, also?

I guess that song constructed out of water-tapes would have been the water-part of the elements quite sure.
Joined: 06 Jun 2005
Posts: 74
But do you think, that the water chant might be done this way? Anybody ever let it play simultaneously (yeah I know, I'd get hooked up on that word, but I
Location: Langenhagen, hope you know what I mean if it's wrong spelled) with some water going on in the background?
Germany
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Jon Hunt wrote:

Joined: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 1992 But, I mean -- this song constructed out of water tapes -- was that going to be "Water" from The Elements? Perhaps??
Location: Ohio
I just took it to mean a reference to the water album that Leaf made reference to in the twofer notes.
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Chris M. Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:21 am
Great read, thanks for posting that, Jon. Now, why are we just hearing about this article?
1 of 3 10/24/2005 2:33 PM
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Chris D. Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:55 am
Hunt, I um . . . ah . . . read the article --right?-- and it was, uh, pretty brilliant, pretty much where it was at. You, uh, did, like some great work, there --
Joined: 03 Jan 2004 right? -- and I'm going to be saving and rereading this.
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All I did was a-post it!

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Lou is the man who got the scans!
That IS a good question, though, how LLVS missed it and so did everyone else for so long....
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Chris D. Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 11:14 am
Thanks, Lou. There is some crazy stuff in there. I really took notice of what he says about "Wind Chimes" and "Whispering Winds." Not to mention the "Heroes
Joined: 03 Jan 2004 and Villains" a-side/b-side confirmation and how the album was going to end.
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Mr. Smajda Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 11:15 am
Great article. What was that deal with having the ear operation and hearing stereo bit?
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NimrodsSon Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:03 pm
Wow! I can't believe nobody has known about this article for so long. I thought it was interesting about Bicycle Rider being part of Cabinessence, and then the
Joined: 27 Apr 2004 whole thing about Sunshine. And then Surf's Up and a choral "amen" thing at the end. Is he referring to Prayer or something that never got recorded? It
Posts: 162
seems like if he was referring to Our Prayer, he would have mentioned it, since it had been released on 20/20. I'm betting it was an actual "amen" that either
Location: Snellville, GA
hasn't surfaced or never got recorded but was planned.
SOMEBODY (earcandy?) NEEDS TO ARRANGE AN INTERVIEW WITH MICHAEL VOSSE (before he dies, not that it will be any time soon) AND SPECIFICALLY
MENTION WHAT HE SAID IN THIS INTERVIEW AND ASK HIM WHAT HE REMEMBERS ABOUT THE SONGS.
Or on second thought, I doubt it, but could the choral thing at the end simply be the Surf's Up cody that was recorded for the Surf's Up album?
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Posts: 162
JRauch Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:07 pm
Or a short REPRISE of Our Prayer?
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Chris D. Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:08 pm
JRauch wrote:
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Posts: 4890 Or a short REPRISE of Our Prayer?
That's what I was thinking. Like he had the idea which was used to connect "Blue Hawaii" and "Good Vibrations" back then, but it was in a different place.
Mitchell Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:10 pm
Wow, what amazing information! A/B Heroes and Villains confirmed, as Chris said!
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Bubba Ho-Tep Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:59 pm
Well, if you follow his train of thought, the bringing up of the Elements takes him into the piano ending of Wind Chimes, so I read it as him being reminded of
Joined: 18 Feb 2004 WInd Chimes by mentioning of the elements....He says he did it at the same time as Fire, so maybe he's saying the piano music box stuff was meant to tie
Posts: 1411
into fire, as it does on BWPS. They are similar thematically, and the ending of Wind Chimes seems odd as it stands on the boxset. It seems to be going
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Home somewhere.
Andrew G. Doe Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:03 pm

HONORED GUEST
Nope - check out scan #5, center column, right at the bottom: he's clearly talking about "Vega-Tables" and "Wind Chimes" as stand-alone songs.
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Peacho Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:10 pm
To me, the money photos in the DVD are the pajama series. A real (and rare) link between Smile Brian and Yeti Brian.
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Baambrugge Insider Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:10 pm
What if Michael Vosse downplayed Brian's mental confusion in 1967? He was (and still is) pro drugs, and given Brian's condition in 1969, maybe he was
defensive about the part that drugs played in Smile's demise (and Brian's decline).
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SMiLEY Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:38 pm
I agree with VDP that drugs are a red-herring issue. It was inter-personal issues that sunk SMiLE.
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Pat Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:40 pm
Instruments dropping out in Wind Chimes? Various unidentifiable sections of water? Gosh, how much smile music have we not heard?
1 of 3 10/24/2005 2:34 PM
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Baambrugge Insider Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:02 pm
SMiLEY wrote:
I agree with VDP that drugs are a red-herring issue. It was inter-personal issues that sunk SMiLE.
Joined: 11 Nov 2003 VDP and Mike Love will say lots of things to cover their asses. They're just human you know.
Posts: 264
Cam Mott Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:01 pm
AGD already beat me to the punch on pointing out Kent had quoted this interview.
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I got that Michael was working at KGO from Frank Holmes and called him at work, though I already had his home number.
Location: Kansas
Chemistry Class Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:01 pm
Yay! Excellent read. Thanks a bunch, Jon.
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cabinessence Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:36 pm
FUSION was an excellent magazine. Luckily I lived outside of Boston so I read it regularly, but a year or two down the road, so I missed this. I believe an
Joined: 01 Oct 2004 occasional post-er here used to write about the Beach Boys for Fusion (among other publications). Wonder if he had something to do with this one (?)
Posts: 604
I just finished reading. I'll have more questions/observations later.
For now, the Dennis Cabinessence: I'm one of those who interprets Vosse to mean this was Brian's first conception of the song before other strands and tunes
built up around it, and that what's the verses today is approximately what survives of that idea.
If so, or even if not, it raises the question: was there an original Cabinessence chorus written that Iron Horse etc. displaced? If so, was it recorded? Did it turn
into something else yet again?
Quote:
Wind Chimes - Vosse describes what sounds like a Brian wilson mix of the song that drops out the instruments on the beginning of the second part/chorus
- "voices sounded like percussion . . . took everything out and would let one little thing come in at a time." Sounds cool.
One of you summed it up this way a couple pages back (sorry to omit the credit)
Is this the same quote with little music box instrumentational stabs and effects added too? I'll check. Regardless, the general effect he describes sounds like
the tape-splice experimentation that survives very excitingly on several cuts of Smiley: like H&V, Wonderful, and, especially, Windchimes itself, as then
released.
That's one thing that BWPS simply doesn't reproduce at all (I don't think!): such recordings were much more Brian-manipulated like electronic music than the
live-in-studio strategy allowed for. Just a thought...
Cam Mott wrote:

Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 298 AGD already beat me to the punch on pointing out Kent had quoted this interview.
I got that Michael was working at KGO from Frank Holmes and called him at work, though I already had his home number.
Does he live in Oakland by any chance?
Is this article the first definitive statement that Surf's Up (other than mere speculation on the part of the fans) was to close SMiLE?
N. T. Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:14 pm
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Charles LePage Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:00 pm

Site Admin
Jon Hunt wrote:

Joined: 15 Jul 2003
Posts: 756
Quote:
Location: Florida
Cabinessence on 20/20 was a new recording?
I think he means, although I might be reading into it, that the VOCALS are a new recording...which they are.
They sound amazingly similiar to the vocal sessions I've heard on various bootlegs. I wonder why the BB felt the need to rerecord their vocals?
wall matthews Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:15 pm
For Mac users, I found it easy to download the files in Safari,drag the jpegs into iPhoto, and just print them out with no editing required... nice addition to the
Joined: 29 Sep 2004 collection... thanks for the scans...best to all
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cabinessence Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:14 pm
guitarfool2002 wrote
Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Quote:
Posts: 604
- The Water tapes...Vosse describing Brian's hearing of individual pitches in the water drops is fascinating. And it sounds exactly like what was later done
on "Cool Cool Water", but instead of editing and splicing the actual water drops by pitch, they used a modified Chamberlain keyboard to shift the pitches of
the "water". So Brian's concept eventually DID find its way onto a song, but not quite how he originally wanted to do it. Pretty damn cool, if you ask me.
That is indeed very cool
Someone went into detail here awhile back about the elaborate home made sound effects that went into making the ocean surf for Diamond Head. This too
seems like an outgrowth of the intense interest with documenting and representing water that Vosse recalls so fascinatingly...
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emansea Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:23 pm
NimrodsSon wrote:
Joined: 24 Jul 2003
Posts: 204
Pat wrote:
Location: guitar center,
vintage room. : ) Hmmm, so prayer as a closer? that could mean so many damn things such as A. The H&V intro, which now precedes MOC, could possibly
have been the opening music (bizarre!)...or that the BWPS dual use of prayer (opener + revisited at the end) could be close to original
intentions.
Or "Well, You're Welcome" could begin it and prayer end it, or as my theory goes, Brian had planned an actual "Amen," like at the end of a hymn.
what i always thought.
emansea Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:26 pm
Pat wrote:
Joined: 24 Jul 2003
Posts: 204 Instruments dropping out in Wind Chimes? Various unidentifiable sections of water? Gosh, how much smile music have we not heard?
vintage room. : )
probably quite a bit.
Paul R. Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:34 pm
The discussion of Wind Chimes w/ the voices dropping out - this is something we've never heard before, right? He's not talking about the abrupt edit to the
"loud" group vocal part, right?
Paul
Joined: 27 Feb 2004

Posts: 160
YR2004 Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:37 pm
Paul R. wrote:
Joined: 26 Dec 2004
Posts: 81 The discussion of Wind Chimes w/ the voices dropping out - this is something we've never heard before, right? He's not talking about the abrupt edit to
the "loud" group vocal part, right?
Paul
I'm pretty sure that's linnett's doing. The original clip can be heard on SOT17 disc three, where there is a count in and a couple of false starts, which linnett
cut out.
1 of 4 10/24/2005 2:34 PM
You think the "false start" vocals are what he's talking about?
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Posts: 160
Chris D. Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:51 pm
I hope so. I always hoped those "false start" vocals were intentional. I love the song that way and it totally plays into the humor aspects of the album.
Joined: 03 Jan 2004
Posts: 5312
O.K., lad. Yer joshin'. BW had made an edit of Wind Chimes back in '66 that did not include the false start...
Is fun to hear, though..
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Posts: 160
bicyclerider Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 11:29 pm
"I'm pretty sure that's linnett's doing. The original clip can be heard on SOT17 disc three, where there is a count in and a couple of false starts, which linnett
Joined: 26 Feb 2004 cut out."
Posts: 546
Yeah, but why on the Linett tape/Vigotone version the vocals in the chorus/second section start so loud? It's not that way on the original tape as reproduced
on SOT. Sloppy/rushed mixing because he was just doing a demo comp tape?
guitarfool2002 Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:10 am
cabinessence wrote:
guitarfool2002 wrote
Joined: 18 Jul 2003

Quote:
Posts: 2032 - The Water tapes...Vosse describing Brian's hearing of individual pitches in the water drops is fascinating. And it sounds exactly like
what was later done on "Cool Cool Water", but instead of editing and splicing the actual water drops by pitch, they used a modified
Chamberlain keyboard to shift the pitches of the "water". So Brian's concept eventually DID find its way onto a song, but not quite how
he originally wanted to do it. Pretty damn cool, if you ask me.
That is indeed very cool
Someone went into detail here awhile back about the elaborate home made sound effects that went into making the ocean surf for Diamond Head. This
too seems like an outgrowth of the intense interest with documenting and representing water that Vosse recalls so fascinatingly...
This is a really interesting direction - remember how Stephen Desper once said something about parts of Smile eventually turning up in many places, and I
think suggesting some were/are unexpected? Maybe this is an example? Brian obviously had this fascination with water, and the musicality of water as it
"sounds" in nature; rather than using specific tapes from Smile, we've named two examples where the same "water-as-music" concept was used for later
productions.
I also wouldn't be suprised if there are tapes somewhere of these various water sounds set to Brian's music, from the Smile era. No validation or proof at all,
but just a guess.
Mitchell Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:20 am
How about water-pouring/jug effects from Smiley Smile Vegetables?
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Ian, Lohaniac Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:33 am
I think Diamond Head is the best example, and remember that song WAS on the rough draft list for the new version of SMiLE!
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P.J. Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:41 am
There's also all the Psychedelic Sounds recordings. Swimswim etc.
EDIT
Ok, just barely finished downloading the scans. Yeah they aren't talking about the PS recordings.
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cabinessence Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 1:12 am
This article is, pardon the term, a true cornucopia!

Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 604
I'm so deep into this now that I'll have to do a paragraph by paragraph summary in a couple days, with questions and interpretations attached. Hope others
join in or start their own first.
Thanks again for posting this. It's material like this that rekindles my love for the album and the Smile Shop project instantly.Vosse is an excellent witness
with memories fresh in mind, very precise about how and where he fit into this all, you know exactly where you stand. It's as personal as a memoir, but also
like a deposition.
Cool too how the interviewer has erased him or herself from this pretty much with such smooth results...Though there are a couple points where there's a
bump or two: we're hearing about the same music from a different angle on another day, as if for the first time. But I'll get back to that later.
For now, I was curious about where he located the pivot point for Smile's collapse. That's with the Capitol Settlement. He doesn't blame the settlement or
anybody really. He just says "That's when", and adds a because...which isn't really causally linked in a normal logical sense. It could be an 'I Ching' sense of
propitious moment passing, too much time spent on other fronts, the destined separation of converging forces (as other creative projects called them) the
cards also foretold was already starting to occur.
I have an inkling, expressed before, that bad timing was really at the heart of the collapse, but I have no idea, really. There's a mystery left in his account
tantalizingly in the ellipses between sentences, the place where the truth of it all still lies, that might be worth investigating in light of the account that
surrounds it here, however. EDIT: Still reading, it was a little premature to post, I think. Vosse doesn't ever literally say 'because' re: Capitol. He just says
That's when several things that led to the downfall really kicked in. No big difference, but worth nuancing. Also, wild guess, is the Robert Burtis who does the
cool page 2 ilillustration (kind of 'Jim Dine' graphic arts with a little Milton Glaser thrown in: underground rags were VERY graphics-savvy in those days, and
this Fusion is a real rival to Rolling Stone (note similar page format and comparable old-timey newspaper fonts and layout) vs. the rather shrunken Creem-like
mag I seem to recall from just a little later), ...UMM, Is that Burtis the same one who now hosts a Web Design service called The Surfboard today? Only
natural to wonder:
http://www.thesurfboard.net/
FURTHER EDIT: Nice Monterey-related quote from ye olde Derek (you can find the link for yourself):
Quote:
Derek Taylor: "We had lots of help convincing the townspeople we weren't mad, so we ought to thank a lot of people -- I'd say Chip Monck, Lou Adler and
an awfully decent young man called Michael Vosse. He acted as a link. We had Tom Wilkes and Guy Webster doing graphics. We had a good chap in Peter
Pilafian, who was a director along with Alan Pariser. Dennis Hopper was there as a photographer. Harrison Ford was a kind of messenger chap."
Jerry Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:04 am
Vosse wrote:
Joined: 27 Feb 2004
Quote:
Posts: 236
That's why they had something as dumb as the "Smile Shop" on the cover. And everybody who knew anything about graphics, and about art, thought that
cover was not terribly well done... but Brian knew better: he was right. It was exactly what he wanted, precisely what he wanted. And he stuck to it until
they went into the Smiley Smile thing by which time the whole idea had collapsed anyway.
Is this new? Vosse seems to be saying that Brian met with resistance over the Smile Shop cover.
Andrew G. Doe Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:15 am

HONORED GUEST
Quote:
And it sounds exactly like what was later done on "Cool Cool Water", but instead of editing and splicing the actual water drops by pitch, they used a
modified Chamberlain keyboard to shift the pitches of the "water"
Afraid not - the 'water' sounds in "CCW" are a moog played by Paul Tanner. The Chamberlain was programmed with the tapes Desper - and presumably Vosse
Joined: 28 Aug 2004
- recorded back in late 1966. When the band came to use them for "CCW", they'd been wiped.
Posts: 489
Mostly yon.
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bicyclerider Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:45 am
"That's why they had something as dumb as the "Smile Shop" on the cover. And everybody who knew anything about graphics, and about art, thought that
Joined: 26 Feb 2004 cover was not terribly well done... but Brian knew better: he was right"
Posts: 545
I interpreted this as Vosse's (and maybe Anderle's, since he says "everybody" but it sounds like he's exaggerating here to buttress his own opinion) dislike of
the cover because of it's primitivism and "cartoon consciousness." The probably felt the art was not sophisticated enough to reflect the music - but we know
Van Dyke was not one of the everybody. The smile shop perfectly reflected Brian's "dumb humor" preoccupation.
flanshandy3000 Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 8:43 am
Surf's Up's ending, as I've always suspected probably didn't ahve the CIFOTM lyrics at the end but more of a chorral "Amen" version at the end similar to
Joined: 18 Oct 2004 prayer at the start (with possibily Well You're Welcome) following it. It would appear to be pieced together as so....
Posts: 85
Wonderful
Love to say da da
Child is father of the man (Brian's mix)
Surf's Up (with choral ending as in Inside Pop demo)
Well You're welcome
I don't believe Dada was the water section so it must be related to Wonderful or child.
The barnyard suite part is also quite interesting possible encapsulating
Old Master Painter

You are my sunshine
Barnyard (or false barnyard before maybe)
I wanna be around
Friday night...perhaps going into Vega-tables then wind chimes fire and the water piece.
Also linking Cabinessence with bicycle rider suggests (at some point)
Do you like worms

cabinessence
then again, just speculation...
Eric W. Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 9:43 am
Bubba Ho-Tep wrote:

Joined: 08 Sep 2003
Posts: 422
NimrodsSon wrote:
Location: UK
bicyclerider wrote:
THe YAMS/Barnyard/Workshop thing. I wonder if Vosse is confusing some different sessions here, particularly workshop.
But what if Barnyard, with animal sounds, was originally the tag to YAMS, and not "false Barnyard?" More likely Mike's
confused between false Barnyard and Barnyard, which of course many others have been as well, they're similar pieces
that ended up in the same song (Heroes). If workshop is indeed linked to Barnyard, that would make workshop part of
the Barnyard suite, wouldn't it?
Well, he specifically mentioned animal noises and an "Old McDonald" kind of song, so I wouldn't think he's confusing it with False
1 of 4 10/24/2005 2:34 PM
Barnyard. .
But the development of the piece fits the False barnyard M.O.
The session shows him molding it from a slow plucker into a full-swing ho-dowm. And it makes sense as something he just thought up on the spot, since it
seems so nutty as the third phase of the song. It was cut the same time, inspired by it, but ended up elsewhere. Maybe at some point he was using it in
conjunction with Barnyard, as they are quite similar. This would support the "Barnyard Suite" theory, but not the album jacket set list theory, but as Brian
was known to change his mind each week, I still go by the jacket, as its the closest point to finished the album ever got.
Vosse's desciption perfectly fits BW's mix of OMP/YAMS - remember that the full version ends with the 'Barnshine' tag.
The tag to Wind Chimes sounds like the one we have in the mix. The elements information is consistent with what's around. The veggies material, as someone
pointed out, sounds very much the demo version.
I think the BR chorus in cab is a red herring. The revelation that Dennis was to sing it is a big un! But I don't think Vosse's description of that idea indicates
alternate versions of Cab - the description, of a man sing to a woman, hearth-side, fits the lyrics verbatim. The new version? I think that's just new lead
vocals.
The major revelation for me was yet more confirmation of the multiple versions of H&V. Vosse's recollection of the a/b side single mix makes me all the more
hopeful that there are major mixes lurking in the Durrie Parks acetate collections, and possibly in the BBs own vaults.
The amazing thing about the interview is how true it is to the complex nature of the situation. And it really gives the sense that those within the ad hoc
Vosse Posse were every bit as fractious, and perhaps even more, than the BBs themselves. Each has its own interpretation, and yet there are consistencies.
They really seem to focus on BW's control of the situation and paint a remarkably sympathetic picture of the BBs - dissenting support?
Also interesting was the recollection of Murry. Yet more confirmation of Peter's insightful analysis of this aspect of the dissolution of Smile. *Very* curious
about those openheim tapes!
Well done to Lou for following through with this extremely important document. It's an exceptional and unique portrait of the time
Last edited by Eric W. on Tue Jun 14, 2005 9:52 am; edited 1 time in total
bicyclerider Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 9:49 am
"Vosse's desciption perfectly fits BW's mix of OMP/YAMS - remember that the full version ends with the 'Barnshine' tag."
Joined: 26 Feb 2004
Posts: 545
Not exactly - Barnshine doesn't have animal sounds on it, which Vosse clearly describes.
Nobody Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 9:53 am
He only describes one animal -- a duck. He also describes hammering and sawing, which don't make their way into that song. But wasn't OMP/YAMS recorded
Joined: 15 Jul 2003 right near the record date for "Friday Night?" Is it possible that Vosse has crammed two sessions together in his head, the way Carol Kaye did for "Fire" and
Posts: 3029
'Friday Night?"
I guess it is entirely possible that the Barnshine ending might've had animals on it at one point, right???
The thing *I* find most remarkable about this is essentially confirmation that 'Cabinessence" and "Who Ran The Iron Horse" started life as TWO SEPERATE
SONGS.
Also: Just reading the thing about Wind Chimes, I too am almost convinced that Vosse at least beleived that the count in between sections (as it appears on
the rough mix we've heard!!) was DELIBERATELY put there for humor purposes. Can that be?? I mean, why not, I suppose...!
bicyclerider wrote:
Joined: 08 Sep 2003
Posts: 422 "Vosse's desciption perfectly fits BW's mix of OMP/YAMS - remember that the full version ends with the 'Barnshine' tag."
Location: UK
Not on any version that we have...it's no stretch to imagine that some might exist, or that BW performed them over an acetate ala Siegel's description of the
listening parties...
Jon Hunt wrote:

Joined: 08 Sep 2003
Posts: 422 He only describes one animal -- a duck. He also describes hammering and sawing, which don't make their way into that song. But wasn't OMP/YAMS
Location: UK recorded right near the record date for "Friday Night?" Is it possible that Vosse has crammed two sessions together in his head, the way Carol Kaye did
for "Fire" and 'Friday Night?"
I guess it is entirely possible that the Barnshine ending might've had animals on it at one point, right???
The thing *I* find most remarkable about this is essentially confirmation that 'Cabinessence" and "Who Ran The Iron Horse" started life as TWO
SEPERATE SONGS.
Also: Just reading the thing about Wind Chimes, I too am almost convinced that Vosse at least beleived that the count in between sections (as it appears
on the rough mix we've heard!!) was DELIBERATELY put there for humor purposes. Can that be?? I mean, why not, I suppose...!
2 of 4 10/24/2005 2:34 PM
A lot of his recollections bear the mark of someone extremely fascinated by the technical process of making music but not entirely understanding how they
work, what they mean, or how they're used by engineers. That would account for a lot of his interpretations.
It *would*, though, come to t hink of it, be really not out of the question in terms of the Smile we know, for that "Wind Chimes" count-in to have been
Joined: 15 Jul 2003 deliberately included!
Posts: 3029
Where does that version live? I remember hearing it before, but not really knowing the purview for it. I assumed it was just a straight dub-down of the master
reel, but now that I think about it, it might've been a mono mix of the song.
Does anybody have that?
NimrodsSon Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:08 am
Eric W. wrote:
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 297
bicyclerider wrote:
"Vosse's desciption perfectly fits BW's mix of OMP/YAMS - remember that the full version ends with the 'Barnshine' tag."
Not on any version that we have...it's no stretch to imagine that some might exist, or that BW performed them over an acetate ala Siegel's description of
the listening parties...
Or it's quite possible that in the midst of all the excitement of discovering "You are my Sunshine" Brian had tons of ideas all of the sudden come into his
head--he wanted an Old McDonald type song about the barnyard to go with sunshine and then some sawing and hammering sounds to reflect life on the farm,
but eventually after all the initial excitement and all the ideas t6hat he has eagerly explained to all of his friends, he decides to narrow it down to what we
have today for the final mix: OMP/Sunshine/Barnshine. Then perhaps he decides that the Barnyard piece he wrote would fit in somewhere with H&V.
And here's a scenario--what if he recorded workshop for part of Sunshine, decided it didn't really fit in anywhere, and decided not to use it at all (in other
words, it was never meant to be part of the elements and was essentially scrapped after he decided not to use it as part of Sunshine). We know the elements
was to be a four part suite. We've got fire, water (whether it's the water sounds or DaDa, we don't know), vega-tables (for earth) and whatever wind would
have been (Wind Chimes?). That's four pieces, leaving no room for workshop.
Last edited by NimrodsSon on Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:09 am; edited 1 time in total
Jon Hunt wrote:

Joined: 08 Sep 2003
Posts: 422 It *would*, though, come to t hink of it, be really not out of the question in terms of the Smile we know, for that "Wind Chimes" count-in to have been
Location: UK deliberately included!
Where does that version live? I remember hearing it before, but not really knowing the purview for it. I assumed it was just a straight dub-down of the
master reel, but now that I think about it, it might've been a mono mix of the song.
Does anybody have that?
It's on SOT and Archeology I think...
And yeah, a little studio audio verite could well have been deliberate...possibly only for 5 minutes, but you never know!
Well, he does relate that he heard the "tentatively finished" dub "hundreds of times," so it could have been around longer than 5 minutes! I mean, that part
Joined: 15 Jul 2003 IS funny, I've always thought it was funny.
Posts: 3029
(It's not on SOT -- and alas, I don't have archaeology. I don't suppose some kind soul feels like sending it to me?)
That brings to mind also the pause between sections on the dub of "Worms" -- perhaps also deliberate? Perhaps left there for some bit of dialogue or sound
effect to be layered on top? The brain boggles at the possibilities.
The whole thing about Brian providing a laundry list of sound effects for Vosse to record for "Smile" is fascinating. I do know we've heard talk of a tape where
Vosse records a basketball game...I wonder what in HELL that was for?
Jon Hunt wrote:

Joined: 08 Sep 2003
Posts: 422
Location: UK
3 of 4 10/24/2005 2:34 PM
Well, he does relate that he heard the "tentatively finished" dub "hundreds of times," so it could have been around longer than 5 minutes! I mean, that
part IS funny, I've always thought it was funny.
(It's not on SOT -- and alas, I don't have archaeology. I don't suppose some kind soul feels like sending it to me?)
That brings to mind also the pause between sections on the dub of "Worms" -- perhaps also deliberate? Perhaps left there for some bit of dialogue or
sound effect to be layered on top? The brain boggles at the possibilities.
The whole thing about Brian providing a laundry list of sound effects for Vosse to record for "Smile" is fascinating. I do know we've heard talk of a tape
where Vosse records a basketball game...I wonder what in HELL that was for?
Been rootin' around my hard drive and I don't actually have it on there! Doh.
Interesting thing about those pauses - they call to mind the transitional 'spoken humour' bits described in some of BW's interviews at the time...like the
'you're under arrest' bit in H&V. Not sure that worms would have benefitted from stuff like that, but hey, anything is possible!
eran levy Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:57 am
Haven't yet read the article, and I haven't even read the entire thread to be honest... but there's a duck on "Vega-Tables", SOT 17, 2, 18, if anyone cares.
Joined: 28 Feb 2004
Posts: 593
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel
Jon Hunt wrote:
The whole thing about Brian providing a laundry list of sound effects for Vosse to record for "Smile" is fascinating. I do know we've heard talk of a tape
where Vosse records a basketball game...I wonder what in HELL that was for?
That's on the new ProjectSMiLE disc. I guess it's from the Psychedelic Sounds boot? There's another strange sound effect tape called Bob Gordon (I think...
Joined: 05 Nov 2003 correct me if I'm wrong)
Posts: 2085
Andrew G. Doe wrote:
Quote:
Joined: 18 Jul 2003 And it sounds exactly like what was later done on "Cool Cool Water", but instead of editing and splicing the actual water drops by pitch,
Posts: 2032 they used a modified Chamberlain keyboard to shift the pitches of the "water"
Afraid not - the 'water' sounds in "CCW" are a moog played by Paul Tanner. The Chamberlain was programmed with the tapes Desper - and presumably
Vosse - recorded back in late 1966. When the band came to use them for "CCW", they'd been wiped.
Paul Beaver - he was the LA-area Moog salesman at that time and one of the only guys who could tune the Moog! So he got a lot of the Moog session gigs in
the late 60's.
After looking in the archives, I'm somewhat confused by this as well, because I have those Desper posts from a few years ago archived and ready to re-post -
his version of events sounds very, very close to what Vosse describes, right down to recording various natural water sounds with a portable Nagra machine.
So did Desper repeat what Vosse and Brian had done earlier, or was Desper working somehow with Vosse to get the water sounds on tape? There are too
many coincidences, and after reading those old posts, there are two men claiming credit for recording the water on the Nagra, and two men claiming credit for
coming up with the idea of using the drops in a musical way. Uh-oh.
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cabinessence Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:39 am
Quote:
Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 604 Uh-oh.
All too good to be true? Who knows just yet. Read through carefully, compare to other sources, see what emerges. I'm enjoying the mental exercise.
Also, it's a little hard to know just what your Uh Oh is driving at. That the article is an ingenious pastiche done with photoshop? Or that either Vosse or
Desper is taking credit where it's not due? Could you clarify.
Verifying is a good idea. For a start, could you post some of the Desper quotes just to check against. And could Jon or someone nail down the Fusion article
provenance a little tighter than 'around 1969'. An issue number. what was printed on the back of the last page, that sort of thing?
These days, I don't take anything on faith absolutely, though I've been suspending disbelief very happily while plowing through it all
The article isn't fake, fergoodnesssake.

Joined: 15 Jul 2003
Posts: 3029
It was from an actual issue of an actual magazine, that recently sold on ebay, and the seller sent scans of the Vosse pages to Lou. So let's just put that out of
our minds, okay? It's a real interview, real article, and its been quoted in various books over the years. That out of the way:
Quote:
Or that either Vosse or Desper is taking credit where it's not due
I think he's lightly suggesting that Desper may be doing so.
cabinessence wrote:
Quote:
Joined: 18 Jul 2003 Uh-oh.
Posts: 2038
All too good to be true? Who knows just yet. Read through carefully, compare to other sources, see what emerges. I'm enjoying the mental exercise.
Also, it's a little hard to know just what your Uh Oh is driving at. That the article is an ingenious pastiche done with photoshop? Or that either
Desper is taking credit where it's not due? Could you clarify.
Verifying is a good idea. For a start, could you post some of the Desper quotes just to check against.
Here's some of the source of my "Uh-Oh", Cabinessence, from Mr. Desper:
I started recording --before-- the Sunflower CCW was recorded, but --after-- Brian had conceived of CCW. The creation of 2 1/2 octaves of
drips by way of the ELTRON machine and subsequent transfer to the small CHAMBERLIN were in progress during the month or two it took t
record CCW by the group. There were 30 different types of drips and blubbs recorded, each with 26 notes. That is a lot of work!!
1 of 4 10/24/2005 2:34 PM
When we had our first production meeting concerning "Cool, Cool Water" I suggested the use of real water sounds recorded using an ELTRO
machine (Eventide Harmonizer was not invented yet) to first shift the pitch making 2 1/2 octave half-note steps and to transfer all the notes
to a small Chamberlin machine. Mangagement said to "go for it" and so I took off to northern California with my portable NAGRA profession
tape recorder and a good microphone to capture running water sounds in the wild. Later I also recorded air making blubb-type sounds as
blown air came up through flower mixed with water in large buckets. This too was put into 2 1/2 octave steps. It was not until this entire
project was finished that Brian even became aware of what I was doing.
Those quotes (and others) are from 2002 or so, and Vosse is also quoted in a separate interview printed in the Preiss book (late 70's) as saying he recorded
the water. The quotes above suggest a somewhat different version of the story.
[/quote]
Look, by mentioning this I'm not pushing for a controversy or anything, but this part of the "Water - Cool Cool Water" story always seemed to be cloudy. It's
clear to me that Vosse recorded water sounds for Brian and under Brian's specific direction, and that Brian wanted to use those natural sounds in a musical
way as early as possibly 1966 when he first dispatched Vosse to do the work with the Nagra. It's also clear that Desper did work very similar to this, regarding
Joined: 18 Jul 2003 the recording of and use of natural water sounds in a musical way, and specifically describes how he made that happen at some point with a modified
Posts: 2038 Chamberlain, whether or not those specific tapes were eventually wiped.
It would be nice to put it all together and figure out exactly what was going on, that's what I'm going for!
Could they have both done it? Maybe Desper heard about what Brian and Vosse did and wanted to start fresh?
Also, just for an interesting side-note, there's a track on the OHM compilation called "Dripsody", which is a piece created by manipulating the sound of one
drop of water and building music out of it. It was done by Canadian Hugh Le Caine in 1955. I have an mp3 if you want to hear it. PM me with your email
address.
Joined: 05 Nov 2003

Posts: 2085
kenny mac Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:59 am
Mitchell wrote:
Joined: 18 Jul 2003 That's what it looks like, both of them recorded water sounds for BW.
Posts: 1211
Location: Northy Westerny
Europey
Jeff Mason Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:02 pm
Maybe I'm being obtuse, but what's the issue?
1966: Brian comes up with the idea and has Vosse do it. One of many things Brian does. Not everyone in the BB camp is aware of this. Tapes are shelved.
1969: CCW has been conceived. Independent of the above, Desper has the same idea. He gets "management" (also unaware of the old tapes) to agree to do
Joined: 22 Feb 2004 it. Desper does it without involving Brian as the message you quote indicates. Once finished, Brian finds out about it. Maybe he forgot the old tapes, maybe he
Posts: 2190 just didn't care, but he fails to tell Desper about Vosse.
Location: Ohio
Fits together perfectly, no gaps, no contradictions. Is this too easy?
guitarfool2002 Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:05 pm
kenny mac wrote:
Mitchell wrote:
Joined: 18 Jul 2003 Could they have both done it? Maybe Desper heard about what Brian and Vosse did and wanted to start fresh?
Posts: 2038
That's what it looks like, both of them recorded water sounds for BW.
It doesn't make sense, though, that the Vosse tapes were supposedly recorded and in the vaults by the time Desper came onboard, yet Desper suggests he
took the initiative to record the water, and recorded it with the same exact recording set-up (the Nagra) as Vosse says he used. And further suggests that
Brian was NOT involved until after this was done. That is the part that still doesn't make sense, especially after reading Vosse's description.
2 of 4 10/24/2005 2:34 PM
Again, couldn't it be coincidence? Was a Nagra that unusual to use?
And also -- who's to say that the Vosse tapes were there or known about by that time?
Joined: 22 Feb 2004

Posts: 2190
Location: Ohio
Jeff Mason wrote:
Again, couldn't it be coincidence? Was a Nagra that unusual to use?
Joined: 18 Jul 2003 And also -- who's to say that the Vosse tapes were there or known about by that time?
Posts: 2038
It was somewhat of a standard portable machine, but why mention it by name in both cases? Vosse seems impressed that Brian would give him such a
high-quality recorder since he didn't know how to use it at first. I don't know, just an observation.
Here's another quote:

The small Chamberlin, I modified so that I could use each of its internal playback heads for recording or re-recording each of the
tape-threads in the instrument without needing to remove them from the unit. I assembled a variety of water sounds and bubble sounds
tuned in one-half note steps for a 2½ octave spread – to be used for “Cool, Cool Water” – and installed or recorded them one by one into the
smaller Chamberlin.
This process is exactly what Vosse describes as Brian's goal for the water tapes. Editing the water drop tapes by individual pitch to cover each note of the
scale, and putting them into a musical context. Brian at the time probably would have used tape editing, where Desper found a way to modify the
Chamberlain, which played lengths of tape when a key was depressed.
So it's the same exact idea, and nearly the same realization of the idea with a subtle tweak. That's the part that didn't make sense, and the connection which
I mentioned earlier and had challenged.
cabinessence Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:20 pm
Quote:
Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 604 kenny mac wrote:
Mitchell wrote:
That's what it looks like, both of them recorded water sounds for BW.
It doesn't make sense, though, that the Vosse tapes were supposedly recorded and in the vaults by the time Desper came onboard, yet Desper suggests
he took the initiative to record the water, and recorded it with the same exact recording set-up (the Nagra) as Vosse says he used. And further suggests
that Brian was NOT involved until after this was done. That is the part that still doesn't make sense, especially after reading Vosse's description.
I'm running out the door, so this won't have all the bows tied neatly, but I think the two accounts can be reconciled.
For now, Desper doesn't say he made up the whole water concept out of his own imagination. He just tells us how he achieved the effect in his own way.
Semantics, I know, but there's a lot of background to the bigger story that's not directly addressed in the particular quote. Brian may have been on an
ongoing mission to do this sort of thing, had old tapes lying around that weren't usable for this particular project; or maybe folks simply remembered that's
what he'd been up to, and Desper started afresh.
Nagras were making the rounds in those days, I wouldn't get distracted by that right at the start. I want to see exactly what Vosse says in his account and if
it's really "too" similar, at least to my eyes . I'd do so right now, but I gotta run!
kenny mac Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:23 pm
guitarfool2002 wrote:
It doesn't make sense, though, that the Vosse tapes were supposedly recorded and in the vaults by the time Desper came onboard, yet Desper suggests
he took the initiative to record the water, and recorded it with the same exact recording set-up (the Nagra) as Vosse says he used.
Joined: 18 Jul 2003 If Desper wasn't informed of the tapes in the vault and the Nagra was a piece of kit owned by Brother or just hanging around it makes sense.
Posts: 1211
Location: Northy Westerny Quote:
Europey
And further suggests that Brian was NOT involved until after this was done. That is the part that still doesn't make sense, especially after reading Vosse's
description.
It especially makes sense if BW wasn't around to tell Desper that Vosse had already made tapes like this.
How would Desper know that Brian and Vosse had already worked on this if Brian only became involved after the making of Desper's tapes?
It was somewhat of a standard portable machine, but why mention it by name in both cases?
3 of 4 10/24/2005 2:34 PM
Because that's what it's called?

Quote:

The small Chamberlin, I modified so that I could use each of its internal playback heads for recording or re-recording each of the
Joined: 18 Jul 2003
Posts: 1211
tape-threads in the instrument without needing to remove them from the unit. I assembled a variety of water sounds and bubble sounds
Location: Northy Westerny tuned in one-half note steps for a 2½ octave spread – to be used for “Cool, Cool Water” – and installed or recorded them one by one into
Europey the smaller Chamberlin.
Desper is making tapes for Cool Cool Water, Vosse made tapes for sort of unspecified SMiLE material and or an album of water sounds. Two seperate time
frames, one in which Brian was involved another in which he wasn't until after the fact.
Does Vosse mention the Chamberlain?
In the most basic way I'm seeing this, it's not as if they were saying "Hey, let's go out and record Dennis revving up his car and use it on a song!" It's really
quite a coincidence that both Brian and Desper would have the exact same concept and proceed to work towards realizing that concept in nearly the exact
same way using tape edits. They were working on what was an experimental and non-standard musical concept, and it's hard to believe they both had the
Joined: 18 Jul 2003 same idea at different times, apparently independent of each other. Maybe they did as a coincidence, who knows, and I'm not saying they didn't, but if Desper
Posts: 2038 had pitched his water idea to "Management" as he describes, you'd think someone would have mentioned Brian's earlier ideas.
In the most basic way I'm seeing this, it's not as if they were saying "Hey, let's go out and record Dennis revving up his car and use it on a song!" It's
really quite a coincidence that both Brian and Desper would have the exact same concept and proceed to work towards realizing that concept in nearly the
exact same way using tape edits. They were working on what was an experimental and non-standard musical concept, and it's hard to believe they both
had the same idea at different times, apparently independent of each other. Maybe they did as a coincidence, who knows, and I'm not saying they didn't,
Joined: 22 Feb 2004
but if Desper had pitched his water idea to "Management" as he describes, you'd think someone would have mentioned Brian's earlier ideas.
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Location: Ohio
IF management knew about Brian's earlier ideas. Which I am guessing that they didn't.
And as far as the idea itself goes -- in the era of the Mellotron, was it THAT innovative? If you think about it, it makes sense. Doesn't surprise me that two
talented and creative people could independently have the same brainstorm.
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kenny mac wrote:
Joined: 18 Jul 2003 It was somewhat of a standard portable machine, but why mention it by name in both cases?
Posts: 2022
Because that's what it's called?

Quote:

The small Chamberlin, I modified so that I could use each of its internal playback heads for recording or re-recording each
of the tape-threads in the instrument without needing to remove them from the unit. I assembled a variety of water sounds
and bubble sounds tuned in one-half note steps for a 2½ octave spread – to be used for “Cool, Cool Water” – and installed
or recorded them one by one into the smaller Chamberlin.
Desper is making tapes for Cool Cool Water, Vosse made tapes for sort of unspecified SMiLE material and or an album of water sounds. Two seperate time
frames, one in which Brian was involved another in which he wasn't until after the fact.
Does Vosse mention the Chamberlain?
Nagra is a brand name that isn't exactly household.
They didn't have a Chamberlain as Vosse was recording his water tapes. But the part of the article where he mentions Brian wanting to edit the tapes of the
water drops, group them by pitch, and edit them together into a song is EXACTLY what Desper says he did with the Chamberlain, and takes credit for. The
same thing. I just found it interesting since it is a rather unusual recording/production technique that was not standard practice.
king of anglia Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:39 pm
I just wanna say - False Barnyard DOES (did) have animal noises on it - little bird tweets. On the rehearsal anyway.
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Location: NG2
Nagra is a brand name that isn't exactly household.
Joined: 18 Jul 2003 Yes, and we're talking about two people working in the music business, not about "household" type people.
Posts: 1211
Location: Northy Westerny Quote:
Europey
They didn't have a Chamberlain as Vosse was recording his water tapes. But the part of the article where he mentions Brian wanting to edit the tapes of
the water drops, group them by pitch, and edit them together into a song is EXACTLY what Desper says he did with the Chamberlain, and takes credit for.
The same thing. I just found it interesting since it is a rather unusual recording/production technique that was not standard practice.
I reckon if anyone, anywhere had this idea then that would be the natural thing to do -bring some kind of notational order to the recordings to make them
usable musically.
The fact that Vosse doesn't mention the Chamberlain seems to be in line then, as does Desper's mention of it.
1 of 4 10/24/2005 2:35 PM
What's confusing again?
When did Desper record his water sounds? I'd like to know that answer, then maybe I wouldn't be as confused on the timeline of events.
Again, it's just unusual to me that two men would do the exact same thing, especially concerning such an experimental use of natural sounds. And one says
Joined: 18 Jul 2003 Brian wanted the sounds, and the other says Brian didn't know what was going on at all until after the fact. That's what doesn't jive, yet.
Posts: 2022
Andrew G. Doe Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 1:00 pm

HONORED GUEST
cabinessence wrote:
Quote:
Uh-oh.
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Posts: 488
Location: Hither... and yon. All too good to be true? Who knows just yet. Read through carefully, compare to other sources, see what emerges. I'm enjoying the
Mostly yon. mental exercise.
Also, it's a little hard to know just what your Uh Oh is driving at. That the article is an ingenious pastiche done with photoshop? Or that
either Vosse or Desper is taking credit where it's not due? Could you clarify.
Verifying is a good idea. For a start, could you post some of the Desper quotes just to check against.
Here's some of the source of my "Uh-Oh", Cabinessence, from Mr. Desper:
I started recording --before-- the Sunflower CCW was recorded, but --after-- Brian had conceived of CCW. The creation of 2 1/2 octaves of
drips by way of the ELTRON machine and subsequent transfer to the small CHAMBERLIN were in progress during the month or two it took
to record CCW by the group. There were 30 different types of drips and blubbs recorded, each with 26 notes. That is a lot of work!!
When we had our first production meeting concerning "Cool, Cool Water" I suggested the use of real water sounds recorded using an
ELTRO machine (Eventide Harmonizer was not invented yet) to first shift the pitch making 2 1/2 octave half-note steps and to transfer all
the notes to a small Chamberlin machine. Mangagement said to "go for it" and so I took off to northern California with my portable NAGRA
profession tape recorder and a good microphone to capture running water sounds in the wild. Later I also recorded air making blubb-type
sounds as blown air came up through flower mixed with water in large buckets. This too was put into 2 1/2 octave steps. It was not until
this entire project was finished that Brian even became aware of what I was doing.
Those quotes (and others) are from 2002 or so, and Vosse is also quoted in a separate interview printed in the Preiss book (late 70's) as saying he
recorded the water. The quotes above suggest a somewhat different version of the story.
When I interviewed Steve in 1985, he told me pretty much the same tale, but placed it in late 1966 - he specifically told me that it was the first time he
worked for Brian, pre-Friends.
Thanks John for confirming Fusion. I just wanted it to be clear since there'd already been a whisper of a hint of a raised highbrow in the thread, once or
Joined: 01 Oct 2004 twice.
Posts: 604
AG Doe's addition about Desper placing his contribution in 1966...now that's interesting!

HONORED GUEST
I'll dig it out and post it.
Joined: 28 Aug 2004

Posts: 488
Mostly yon.
Bob Hanes Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 1:45 pm

HONORED GUEST
I love everyone's scholorship on this! Thank you, AGD, Craig, et al.

Joined: 19 Jul 2003 The one word that keeps bouncing around in my head and in many "observations" is "management".
Posts: 307
They were the Beach Boys. "Management" was a concept more than a reality. If Desper is refering to "management" in '69 that was one thing. If he were
Location: a proud Blue State
referring to "management" in '70/'71 that was another. But, mostly "management" was Brian first, if you could get him, Carl, Dennis, and to lesser degree
related to the recording process, Al and Mike, and finally whoever was keeping the books, that day.
My point is I wouldn't put much stock in the idea of a major decision being made, or an idea belonging to just one person for that matter. It was a very
informal prossess, to say the least. You got input, if you could, from whoever was available to give it.
I really don't believe Steven had an illumination all his own and decided to "fix up" the CCW with water sounds. He was aware if not physically familiar with
what had gone before.
2 of 4 10/24/2005 2:35 PM
Steven had the skills to do things, and technology had moved along since the penultament days when Brian had, had the original inspiration. It all makes
sense in a linear resonant sense.
At least to me. I see no need to "uh oh".

HONORED GUEST
OK, here it is, verbatim as transcribed in 1985:
AGD - To my knowledge, you first worked for The Beach Boys when you mixed Friends in stereo for them.
SWD - Officially, but I'd done some work for Brian way before that... I guess it must have been during the Smile period. I made a water machine for him. It
was a very interesting project, but unfortunately he was going through one of his more superstitious phases, and I got fired. All I said as I was leaving one
day was "have a nice evening", and that was it - I was out ! He got over it in a month or so.
Joined: 28 Aug 2004
Posts: 488
Location: Hither... and yon. Anyway, this machine was a Chamberlain, very much like a Mellotron [explanation of how it worked deleted]. Now, you could record anything on these tapes,
Mostly yon. and Brian wanted to be able to play water drops on it. So I hiked up into the mountains and recorded all kinds of waterfalls, babbling brooks and so forth, and
then back in town I recorded stuff like water dripping into saucers - and believe me, that's hard to do - and air bubbling up through 20 gallons of goo that I
mixed up in an old oil drum. Reels of stuff like that, and I took all these different water sounds to a friend who'd invented a machine - and remember this was
way back in history, before Fairlights and EMUs - that was like a harmoniser, only a lot more sophisticated because it was mechanical. It was used in movies,
and what it could do was change the pitch of something without altering its duration. So I took single water drops, and all the other noises, and put them
through the machine and made 25 copies, each of them a half-step in the musical scale, so Brian would have 2½ octaves for each sound, I think. All this took
three, four months of labor and at the end of it you could sit down at the Chamberlain and play four or five differnet kind of water noises - single drops,
running streams, waterfalls, gloops. And of course, unlike the early synthesizers, you could play chords. So I set it up in a studio, Brian came in, played it for
five, maybe ten minutes, said it was very nice... and never touched it again. These things happen. Of course, when we came to do "Cool, Cool Water", the
tapes had been wiped and the water drops had to be synthesized.
Last edited by Andrew G. Doe on Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
Susan Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:12 pm
My head is spinning.
Lemme see if i can raise Desper for you guys. I'll send him this way...whether he chooses to travel along with you is obviously up to him.
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Mitchell Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:31 pm
Wow, what a great post, Andrew. It's a shame that the tapes were wiped.
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Michael Papelian Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:36 pm
I wonder if that unfinished 6 minute H&V he mentioned, is indeed the cantina mix with the suggested 2nd part from the Smile bootleg?
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 In one of David Leaf's "Pet Sounds", Rodney B talks of hearing a radically different version of Cabinessence.
Posts: 74
Where are all the different mixes of these songs?

HONORED GUEST
Steve was exceedingly kind to me during my 1985 trip to LA - after dropping me back at my hotel following a day of showing me around the BB sites and
playing unreleased stuff in the car ("Surfer Suzie" is a neat track), I got the following phone call:
"Andrew, if you'd like, I've just spoken to him and Chuck Britz is willing to talk to you tomorrow at Western at noon. Is that OK with you ?"
Definition of a rhetorical question.

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Posts: 488
Mostly yon.
Nobody Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:45 pm
Quote:
Joined: 15 Jul 2003
Posts: 3034 I wonder if that unfinished 6 minute H&V he mentioned, is indeed the cantina mix with the suggested 2nd part from the Smile bootleg
If so, then I have a letter to type:
DEAR DOMENIC:
I officially eat my hat.
3 of 4 10/24/2005 2:35 PM
Love, Jon.
Dan Lega Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:50 pm
Wow, what great stuff! And now for the big question... who did the interview??? Maybe this guy has a tape or transcript of the interview with lots of things
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 that were left out of the final version???
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Thanks for all the input so far on this Water issue . Check this out:
Circa 2002 Desper:

Joined: 18 Jul 2003 “Mangagement said to "go for it" and so I took off to northern California with my portable NAGRA profession tape recorder and a good microphone to capture
Posts: 2038 running water sounds in the wild. Later I also recorded air making blubb-type sounds as blown air came up through flower mixed with water in large buckets.
This too was put into 2 1/2 octave steps. It was not until this entire project was finished that Brian even became aware of what I was doing. ”
Circa 1985 Desper:

“Anyway, this machine was a Chamberlain, very much like a Mellotron [explanation of how it worked deleted]. Now, you could record anything on these tapes,
and Brian wanted to be able to play water drops on it. So I hiked up into the mountains and recorded all kinds of waterfalls , babbling brooks
and so forth, and then back in town I recorded stuff like water dripping into saucers - and believe me, that's hard to do - and air bubbling up through 20
gallons of goo that I mixed up in an old oil drum…EDIT…
So I took single water drops, and all the other noises, and put them through the machine and made 25 copies, each of them a half-step in the musical scale,
so Brian would have 2½ octaves for each sound, I think. All this took three, four months of labor and at the end of it you could sit down at the Chamberlain
and play four or five differnet kind of water noises - single drops, running streams, waterfalls, gloops. And of course, unlike the early synthesizers, you could
play chords. So I set it up in a studio, Brian came in, played it for five, maybe ten minutes, said it was very nice ... and never touched it again. These
things happen. Of course, when we came to do "Cool, Cool Water", the tapes had been wiped and the water drops had to be synthesized.”
Circa 1978 Vosse:

“Brian sent me out with a tape recorder to tape water sounds - all kinds of water . He wanted to do a thing with natural sounds.”
Circa 1969 Vosse: Read page 5, column 3 of the 1969 magazine article scans. Vosse says the water recordings were his first assignment from Brian, and
confirms everything else we’ve been discussing with the pitches of the drops and all that, but credits Brian with the idea and inspiration.
There is my confusion about the whole thing. There still seems to be a question of who did what and when they did it, and what Brian knew or didn’t know
about these projects. Add in Andrew's info about 1966, and it gets even more cloudy. Not for any reason other than my own curiosity, and to get the story
straight because I think it is/was a brilliant musical idea that should be celebrated and discussed, it would be great to put all the pieces in order if we can.
Charles LePage Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:13 pm

Site Admin
Is it possible Vosse and Desper are the same person, which is why you never see them together at the same time?
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Charles LePage wrote:
Is it possible Vosse and Desper are the same person, which is why you never see them together at the same time?
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Posts: 2038
Uh-oh.
grooveblaster Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:21 pm
The thing that is frustrating about the many observations and interviews done over the years is that as time gets away from the actual event, memory can
play tricky games with details. Even with an interview in 1969 about something that took place in 1966.
1 of 4 10/24/2005 2:35 PM
I think back on some recording and live shows that I did 15 years ago and some of the details seem to blend together.
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Bob Hanes Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:16 pm

HONORED GUEST
Jon Hunt wrote:

Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 307
Quote:
Location: a proud Blue State
I wonder if that unfinished 6 minute H&V he mentioned, is indeed the cantina mix with the suggested 2nd part from the Smile bootleg
If so, then I have a letter to type:
DEAR DOMENIC:
I officially eat my hat.
Love, Jon.
<< oh that again eh?

there are so many "edits", "mixes" or H&V in the archives that it's silly. Is it one of them? The possibilities are endless and speculation only makes my head
spin 'round and 'round.
"the more information I get about Smile the less I am sure I know anything at all about SMiLE."- me, I said that a couple dozen years ago, it's even more true
today. But I still love it.
ForgetMarie Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:03 pm
Couldn't it be that he assigned both to the same project? Just to see what each came up with independently? Maybe there were more people than that
Joined: 14 Jun 2004 involved, a vast conspiracy of people making water sound recordings.
Posts: 92
Susan Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:05 pm
ForgetMarie wrote:
...a vast conspiracy of people making water sound recordings.
Uh-oh...
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Posts: 232
Quote:
Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 604 ...a vast conspiracy of people making water sound recordings.
Isn't that what George Clinton described in "The Motor-Booty Affair"?
harveyw Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:33 pm
Back on topic...
Quote:
Apparently Fusion was a local Boston music magazine with limited distribution - I was referred to this particular issue on ebay by some other poster on
the board, and emailed the winner of the auction and asked for the scans
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Posts: 151
Location: london, england That was me, and I'm glad I did. great stuff.
2 of 4 10/24/2005 2:35 PM
Paul R. Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 9:52 pm
Jon Hunt wrote:
Also: Just reading the thing about Wind Chimes, I too am almost convinced that Vosse at least beleived that the count in between sections (as it appears
on the rough mix we've heard!!) was DELIBERATELY put there for humor purposes. Can that be?? I mean, why not, I suppose...!
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Posts: 160
Jon, the description of what he had heard sounds more elaborate than just leaving the count-in before the second part:
“…:by recording everybody and doing the song straight through and going back to the tape and eliminating voices he had this little section where voices
sounded like little percussion instruments – because he took everything out and would only let one little thing come in at a time, so suddenly there was this
break and it was funny but it worked so well that it built up the rhythm and made the change that all I can say is that he found a new way to make musical
changes in a song.”
It sounds almost like a "dub" style mix, where Brian was quickly moving the faders up and down to catch just syllables - maybe in rhythm to create a
percussive effect - probably comical and creative sounding - and probably something we haven't heard yet...and in which part of the song, who knows...
just my guess.
Paul
NimrodsSon Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:01 pm
Paul R. wrote:
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 298 Jon Hunt wrote:
Also: Just reading the thing about Wind Chimes, I too am almost convinced that Vosse at least beleived that the count in between
sections (as it appears on the rough mix we've heard!!) was DELIBERATELY put there for humor purposes. Can that be?? I mean, why
not, I suppose...!
Jon, the description of what he had heard sounds more elaborate than just leaving the count-in before the second part:
“…:by recording everybody and doing the song straight through and going back to the tape and eliminating voices he had this little section where voices
sounded like little percussion instruments – because he took everything out and would only let one little thing come in at a time, so suddenly there was
this break and it was funny but it worked so well that it built up the rhythm and made the change that all I can say is that he found a new way to make
musical changes in a song.”
It sounds almost like a "dub" style mix, where Brian was quickly moving the faders up and down to catch just syllables - maybe in rhythm to create a
percussive effect - probably comical and creative sounding - and probably something we haven't heard yet...and in which part of the song, who knows...
just my guess.
Paul
No, I believe that's what Jon was referring to. Check Project Smile (I don't know what boot it is on) in the Wind Chimes section, the track labeled st-wcses08.
It has the break with the count in it and voices coming in and out during the count, just like Michael Vosse described.
and the way that is done is like it had to have been on purpose, so maybe Michael is right and that's how Brian intended it; I don't know.
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Paul R. Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:10 pm
I've heard it many times.. it just sounds like the guys come in too early - nothing too noteworthy to my ears. And Vosse doesn't mention the "1,2 - 1,2,3"
count. (I've got loads of tapes of my own bandmates and friends coming in on the wrong count and it sounds just like this.) I think Vosse and friends were
hearing something really unique...
Paul
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Posts: 160
Yeah, I would think it's just them coming in early, except that they come in early like five times, even with the count in the background.
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aeijtzsche Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:17 am
Quote:
I think Vosse and friends were hearing something really unique...
Didn't they all freak out when Brian sigh though? "Whoa, he sighed...cosmic"?
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Anyway, add me to the list of people that think the count-in stuff is what he's talking about.
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William Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:31 am
Just did an edit mocking this up with the Project Smile Wind Chimes take mentioned earlier in this thread (using the right channel only, so the counting is
Joined: 02 Aug 2004 inaudible), with this "choral stutter" occuring between the end of the verse and the beginning of section 2 proper. Sounds natural as air, and surprisingly
Posts: 22
funky.
William
The thing is, the count-in was probably actually going to be audible. The reason I think it was is because if you listen to the count-in isolated, you can tell that
it was recorded "wild," not in the room with the musicians. It's too dry and close. I guess it could have been recorded that way to help the Beach Boys mess
up properly and then erased, but I think it's likely that if such care was taken to record it, it's probably that it was intended to be heard.
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Paul R. Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:16 am
I think that Brian had to add a count-in to the master because there would have been no way for the BB's to know when to come in on part two. For me
what's missing is any sign of Brian bringing voices in and out in any creative, percussive manner. It's just sounds like a false start. Vosse's comment reminds
me of what Desper had said about the 8 tracks of vocals on Heroes - how they would "play" them, bringing faders up and down to create different
sounds/harmonies, etc. Just my humble op.
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Wee Helper Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:16 am
Quote:
It's easy to imagine the "Bicycle Rider" lyrics over the "Iron Horse" backing track. Wouldn't surprise me if that was his intention, unless there actually was
a way he planned on inserting a whole "BR" section into the song.
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Always struck me that the Who Ran The Iron Horse would be marvellous coming after the "woo, woo, woo" that got cut from the end of the Cantina section of
heroes - a sung train whistle followed by an invocation of railroad and train… fantastic, and so wild west (to the eyes and ears of a Brit!).
1 of 3 10/24/2005 2:35 PM
Evenreven Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:29 am
Wow! This article and thread is the doom.

Joined: 22 Nov 2004 Most of my initial thoughts have already been mentioned by others. So I will just chime in with the thanks. Thanks Harvey, Lou and Jon!
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guitarfool2002 Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:38 am
Add me to the group who thinks we haven't heard this same "Wind Chimes" that Vosse and Anderle used to ask Brian to play for them. It seems to me like it
was a fader manipulation of some kind, where each voice comes in one at a time, as others have mentioned. Now was this done on a musical passage we've
heard in a different form, or was this a totally different piece of music?
Joined: 18 Jul 2003
Posts: 2032 For what it's worth, I think it's that part of those group vocals that explodes after a brief moment of silence, and right before the multi-layered piano bit. You
could, with the master tracks, have each vocal part coming in as a separate part and building it much longer than on, say, the box set mix of it. But I don't
think we've heard this version, yet, for some reason.
Jasper Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:56 am
A question about "Wind Chimes": Was there a Beach Boys vocal session for the August 3-version?
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Place
Toby Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:05 am
Don't have the time to contribute to the this thread at the moment, but thanks to all of you who *are* contributing! Fascinating to say the least!
Oh, one thing: Sunshine seems to have been concieved in a later stage of the songwriting process. It wasn't connected to OMP (originally a piece of H&V) at
all at first but to Barnyard and Woodshop. This could possibly indicate that, when the OMP fade went into H&V, what was left of OMP/Sunshine was part of the
Barnyard/IIGS suite.
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bicyclerider Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:21 am
I thought "Sunshine" was attached to Heroes at first (the May session) - where does someone say OMP was originally part of Heroes?
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And since Sunshine was originally part of Heroes, and here Vosse links it with Barnyard (also part of Heroes) and Workshop, does that mean Workshop was
part of Heroes at some point? Or when Barnyard was taken out of Heroes, and presumably into Great Shape, Workshop was created to fill out the Barnyard
suite (and the I'm in great Shape notation on the session sheet was correct?)
JRauch Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:23 am
Just an idea:
What if the whole first side of the LP would have been "Heroes And Villains"? I mean, we call the first movement Americana or things like that, but what if it
was the "H&V-movement" to Brian back then?
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Posts: 956
"I thought "Sunshine" was attached to Heroes at first (the May session) - where does someone say OMP was originally part of Heroes?"
Sorry, my bad. Yeah, I knew that.
Joined: 18 Jul 2003

Posts: 473
"I thought "Sunshine" was attached to Heroes at first (the May session) - where does someone say OMP was originally part of Heroes?"
Sorry, my bad. Yeah, I knew that.
Joined: 18 Jul 2003

Posts: 473
2 of 3 10/24/2005 2:35 PM
P.J. Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:18 pm
Maybe he was hearing a version of the Whispering Winds bit. I could see how beautiful it could sound with each members vocals being isolated or something.
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Posts: 1010
BC Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:04 pm
Chris M. wrote:
Joined: 06 Mar 2004
Posts: 1089
**Great read, thanks for posting that, Jon. Now, why are we just hearing about this article?**
I'm a little late in answering this, but let me just say, we will be "finding out" about '66-67 media regarding BW until the end of the world. Honestly. When
Priore and myself were hired as research archivists for "Beautiful Dreamer," one of the things that struck us was just how much material we found that was
NOT in LLVS. A good 35% of the stuff we found had not been seen previously. Particularly when it comes to hippie zines and underground press from the
'60s... lots of Beach Boys/Brian articles, and we went through over 4,000 hippie magazines, just from America alone. Brian/BB articles were found in
magazines from Florida, Chicago, Berkeley... one of a kind things that I've never seen before or since.
Now, David Leaf used what was required to tell his story, but 80% of what we found and filmed at three motion control sessions in Hollywood was not used in
the documentary. And Dom and I will be the first to say that we did not even come close to finding it all. We combined the collections of five people (the
biggest being Greg Shaw's), plus mine and his own collectives of SMILE-related material. But I never get surprised when more stuff pops up. It was Wilson's
most important work, and it will be studied forever. Get ready to keep getting your mind blown. The Inside Pop transcriptions should be evidence of that, as
well as this interview from '69.
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bicyclerider Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:09 pm
"Where was the magazine created and published out of? That would help.
Joined: 26 Feb 2004
Posts: 546
Boston Mass.
Andy Paley might know a little more about that magazine.

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Dan Lega Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:17 pm
BC wrote:
Joined: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 489 Where was the magazine created and published out of? That would help.
It was published in Boston.
Well, you want to look for people who were kids in that area during that time, or Boston rock/garage historians. The average Boston guy might vaguely
Joined: 06 Mar 2004 remember it, but people who actually were a part of that scene or who actively collect Boston rock stuff... they might really be able to give you the inside
Posts: 1089
scoop. Plus, obviously, if you could find those people who MADE it.
I wonder how they knew to get in touch with Vosse.
Stephen W. Desper Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:32 pm

HONORED GUEST
Susan over at Shut Down site suggested that I comment on this topic.
I read the Michael Vosse interview with interest and must say that although it is well put together, contains some convoluted commentary and statemen
Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 243 that are a stretch of the facts (as I recall them). Nevertheless a good read for pumping up interest in Beach Boy history to the general public and is mostly
Location: correct.
askswd@webtv.net
The tracks in the “20/20” release are NOT “new” tracks as stated on the last link (#6) of the article. When the tapes arrived at the house studio from the
Columbia vault for coping onto eight-track and sixteen-track working multi-track formats, the songs included “Who Ran the Iron Horse?,” “Bicycle Rider,”
“Cabinessence,”Sunshine,” “Old Mac.,”etc. Some parts were used, others not. The final release contains the essence (pardon the pun) of the original with
sweetened vocal and instrumental parts added along with some new parts that compliment the original. Other original tracks were replaced with the same
parts but different instrumentation, and re-recorded in stereo. This is part of the recording process – an ongoing unfoldment of inspiration and melodious
ideas, formulated and fused into a harmonious combination that moves along the intended emotional response of the producer as expressed in music. A
1 of 4 10/24/2005 2:35 PM
process in which (for “20/20”) Brian was involved along with the group.
In reply to one comment from one SmileShop contributor, Vosse had nothing to do with the sounds I recorded and transferred to the Chamberland. I worked
directly with Carl and Dennis and later with Brian on this project and not with Vosse. He had nothing to do with my project. He was not part of the
organization at that time. We are different people.
When I came on the scene and Carl ask me to take on the recording of water sounds for use by Brian in CCW, he said nothing about any earlier attempt by
anyone to record sounds of water. Brian was around but said nothing either. So, whatever Vosse had attempted with this concept was by then forgotten by
everyone, or it was just something he did on his own – don’t know. If there were tapes in the vault containing Vosse’s recording of water sounds, nobody
cared about it because nobody made any reference to any such tapes. I have never come across such tapes, and believe me, I’ve been in the vault many
times and am quite familiar with its content. Mr. Vosse was an assistant to Brian and did occasionally record sound effects that Brian wanted, so could have
certainly recorded some water sounds – but that is where it ended.
I think the time-line would be that when Vosse was in the BB organization, Brian asked him to record some water sounds. He certainly could have by using a
rented Nagra. But knowing how Brian and other musicians work, you just cannot take a pile of tapes and snips of tones-of-drops and expect anyone to make
music out of it, so the tapes were put somewhere and forgotten. Mr. Vosse left the BB organization. A few months later I arrived on the scene. A few months
thereafter Carl came to me with the water project, because he knew that I was an engineer – not just in name but in practice. I suggested that in order to get
water sounds organized into a usable situation – a situation that Brian could use – that the water sounds should be musically organized and playable on a
keyboard. I envisioned using a new and very experimental machine called ELTRON that I had used over at MGM and was currently at the University of
California. This machine would allow one simple drip to be re-recorded over and over so that a series of drips would result that were of the same time duration
but each ½ note below or above the central water drip – extending a little more than an octave each way. The same for splashes and blobs. The pitch of a
water drop can be “tweaked” to peak at any frequency and thus “sound” a specific note. The initial drips were filtered to give a defined musical note when
heard. Then key-shifted using the ELTRON. A reel containing a 2 ½ octave spread was assembled for each of 20 different type water sounds. Then each tone
was recorded using a modified Chamberland as a recorder. Then each of the six-foot tape strips that are used by Chamberland were placed back into the
re-modified Chanberland for playback. These were mechanically fitted into the machine. The end result was that Brian could play a note on the keyboard and
hear a water drop of, say, A. Next note up he could press would be A# and so on. He could play water-drop chords also. With this technique any musician
could figure out something musical with water-sound noises. It would be intuitive.
If I had know that Vosse had already recorded water effects I would not have used them anyway. I needed water sounds that would work with the
Chamberland and the limits imposed by that machine. Vosse’s concept was unworkable and failed in the end. My concept did work but was also not used in
the end. In the end we were both trumped by Moog.
Here are some of my words from the archives at Cabinessence.com:
I started recording --before-- the Sunflower CCW was recorded, but --after-- Brian had conceived of CCW. The creation of 2 1/2 octaves of drips by way of the
ELTRON machine and subsequent transfer to the small CHAMBERLIN were in progress during the month or two it took to record CCW by the group. There were
30 different types of drips and blubbs recorded, each with 26 notes. That is a lot of work!!
When we had our first production meeting concerning "Cool, Cool Water" I suggested the use of real water sounds recorded using an ELTRO machine (Eventide
Harmonizer was not invented yet) to first shift the pitch making 2 1/2 octave half-note steps and to transfer all the notes to a small Chamberlin machine.
Management said to "go for it" and so I took off to northern California with my portable NAGRA profession tape recorder and a good microphone to capture
running water sounds in the wild. Later I also recorded air making blubb-type sounds as blown air came up through flower mixed with water in large buckets.
This too was put into 2 1/2 octave steps. It was not until this entire project was finished that Brian even became aware of what I was doing.
The small Chamberlin, I modified so that I could use each of its internal playback heads for recording or re-recording each of the tape-threads in the
instrument without needing to remove them from the unit. I assembled a variety of water sounds and bubble sounds tuned in one-half note steps for a 2½
octave spread – to be used for “Cool, Cool Water” – and installed or recorded them one by one into the smaller Chamberlin.
Mr. Vosse uses a few key words to describe his project, the same words I use, but the similarity ends with that. I doubt Vosse even knows what the hell an
ELTRON machine is, nor has ever seen one. At the time there was only on ELTRON in the country and I rented the machine I used from the University of
California’s sound lab., before it was returned to Germany. The use of a Nagra tape recorder is very unusual in the record industry. This is a small and pricey
tape recorder used almost exclusively by the motion picture industry. I used it because of my background in that industry with MGM, Universal, W7, and Fox
and my familiarity with the machine as a field recordist. That does not mean that Vosse did not use a Nagra, but when I showed the Nagra I used to Brian
and the boys, they acted as if this was the first time they had ever seen one. Nevertheless it is a good portable recorder and Brian could have rented one via
his engineering friends for Vosse to use.
Another SmileShop reader says that Brian may have edited tapes for the water sounds. Get Real! Brian would not know one end of the tape from another. This
is not his area of expertise.
When I finally completed this two-month long process – a process involving field recording, key shifting (remember this was 30+ years ago and such
techniques were only laboratory type techniques) modification of recording equipment, rebuilding the Chamberland – Brian had advanced his concept of the
song and, ironically, in the end used water sounds generated by a Moog synthesizer and scraped all naturally recorded sounds. I still have all the water sounds
I recorded for the project in my tape library. That was a lot of work and, although I never play them, it seems a shame to wipe them.
Someone on the Smile Shop wondered about me “going to management.” That statement means that I had to get funds approved for the project from the BB
office. Just because a BB wants to do something or buy something is not enough authority to realize it. This is a business. As such management (Nick Grillo in
those days) had to approved any expense over $500.00, even if your were a Beach Boy. I rented the recorder and microphone and was traveling up north and
hiking into the woods. I wanted to take my girl friend along at the time also and so need a motel room for us for a few nights. I also was paid and that needed
to be approved. Then I needed to rent and transport the ELTRON machine that was the size of a small freezer. I had to get insurance on it also. I further
needed to buy parts to modify the Chamberlands. So going to management was required.
There is life on Mars.
I hope that answers your questions. It’s really just a matter of the time-line. I will be staying around this thread for a few days, so if you have further
questions about “20/20” or such, ring in and I’ll try to answer the best I can.
Good Listening, ~Stephen W. Desper
Chris D. Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:39 pm
Thank you very much for your input. Especially the "Cabinessence" comments.
Joined: 03 Jan 2004
Posts: 5313
A Koufax-esque fastball, if I've ever seen one!

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2 of 4 10/24/2005 2:35 PM
Soulful Old Man Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:43 pm
Thank you very much for your comments Stephen.
Boy, I'd love to hear how this "water keyboard" sounded, must have been the coolest thing.
Joined: 27 Jul 2004

Posts: 191
Location: Netherlands
Jeff Mason Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:55 pm
Thanks, Steve. Great stuff. I am curious if you can add any detail to the use of Smile in 69-72 as I have seen you quoted at various times and I know that you
had to have handled the tapes a lot. Also, curious as well as to your take on the finished Smile of 2004. Since you were hearing this stuff long before we did, I
am curious about your reactions to the final form it took.
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Posts: 2190
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Cam Mott Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:56 pm
Thanks Stephen.
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 1313
I'm thinking a mountain may have been made out of a mole hill prior to Stephen's arrival though in regards to the water taping. Michael was asked by Brian to
Location: Kansas
tape water sounds and later Stephen was asked to tape water sounds by Carl. Different men asked to tape record water at different times by different men for
different purposes; it's as simple as that without any confusion or cross purposes or conspiracy to my mind.
N. T. Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:10 pm
Wow--thanks for posting Mr. Desper!
Quote:
songs included “Who Ran the Iron Horse?,” “Bicycle Rider,” “Cabinessence,”Sunshine,” “Old Mac.,”etc.
Joined: 12 Sep 2004

and, so then maybe "Who Ran the Iron Horse?" was indeed a seperate song from "Cabinessence"!!
Posts: 251
SMiLEY Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:25 pm
Thank you, Stephen!
And Thanks to Susan for passing along the message!
Stephen -- I was wondering if you could expound a bit about the '72 project that had Carl and yourself attempting to pull together a SMiLE album for Reprise.
Joined: 18 Jul 2003
Posts: 1152 We know that very little came of this project, but any remembrances you have would be very welcome and perhaps enlightening. Carl once made the
of 23rd St. NYC
statement (and I'm paraphrasing), "It's all Heroes & Villains." Does that ring a bell?
Susan Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:27 pm
My pleasure, Smiley...glad to be of service.
Joined: 28 Nov 2003

Posts: 232
aeijtzsche Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:31 pm
Quote:
The tracks in the “20/20” release are NOT “new” tracks as stated on the last link (#6) of the article. When the tapes arrived at the house studio from the
Columbia vault for coping onto eight-track and sixteen-track working multi-track formats, the songs included “Who Ran the Iron Horse?,” “Bicycle Rider,”
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 “Cabinessence,”Sunshine,” “Old Mac.,”etc. Some parts were used, others not. The final release contains the essence (pardon the pun) of the original with
Posts: 2205 sweetened vocal and instrumental parts added along with some new parts that compliment the original. Other original tracks were replaced with the same
Location: Grand Rapids parts but different instrumentation, and re-recorded in stereo.
Thank you, Stephen. I think a lot of people want to know about the vocal work done for Cabinessence in the 20/20 era; mainly if Carl's lead vocal of the
"home on the range" segment was newly taped or had been recorded in 1966 or 67. Also, were you aware of a Dennis lead like Vosse
Additionally, Peter Reum has stated a theory on this thread (I think) that Brian's institutionalization during 20/20 led to his virtual non-involvement in the
recording process of the whole LP (sorry if I got that wrong, Peter.)
Do your recollections reconcile readily with Reums ruminations?
PS: Mr. Desper, thanks to you I've been getting really into true stereo recording. Some of your remarks have really helped my recordings gain some depth
3 of 4 10/24/2005 2:35 PM
thanks.
Ian, Lohaniac Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:35 pm
Great stuff, Stephen. You're an engineering genius, Sunflower is the best recording I have ever heard, period.
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Yes, Mr. Desper... you have some big fans here. And these are some of the more musically intelligent people I've ever met on the internet. So it's nice to see
Joined: 06 Mar 2004 you taking some time out to write for people who DO really care.
Posts: 1089
Hope all is well with you.
Brian Chidester
Jasper Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:54 pm
Very interesting!
Joined: 29 Feb 2004
Posts: 509
Mr. Desper, have you ever heard a 1966/67-recording of "Surf's Up - Part 2" beside Brian's solo-performance?
Location: Nearest Faraway
Place
And is it true that in 1971 you had a tape of the 1st movement with vocals from the 60's, but it was badly damaged and couldn't be used?
Mitchell Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:17 pm
Terrific information. Thanks a lot. I look forward to any further answers on this thread!
Joined: 05 Nov 2003

Posts: 2085
nemo Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:05 pm

HONORED GUEST
"If I had know that Vosse had already recorded water effects I would not have used them anyway. I needed water sounds that would work with the
Joined: 15 Jun 2005 Chamberland and the limits imposed by that machine. Vosse’s concept was unworkable and failed in the end. My concept did work but was also not used i
Posts: 23
the end. In the end we were both trumped by Moog."
Location: USA
"...he said nothing about any earlier attempt by anyone to record sounds of water. Brian was around but said nothing either. So, whatever
attempted with this concept was by then forgotten by everyone, or it was just something he did on his own – don’t know. If there were tapes in the vault
containing Vosse’s recording of water sounds, nobody cared about it because nobody made any reference to any such tapes."
"The use of a Nagra tape recorder is very unusual in the record industry. This is a small and pricey tape recorder used almost exclusively by the motion pic
industry. I used it because of my background in that industry with MGM, Universal, W7, and Fox and my familiarity with the machine as a field recordist. Th
does not mean that Vosse did not use a Nagra, but when I showed the Nagra I used to Brian and the boys, they acted as if this was the first time they had
ever seen one. Nevertheless it is a good portable recorder and Brian could have rented one via his engineering friends for Vosse to use. "
"Mr. Vosse was an assistant to Brian and did occasionally record sound effects that Brian wanted, so could have certainly recorded some water sounds – b
that is where it ended. "
"...Brian asked him to record some water sounds. He certainly could have by using a rented Nagra. But knowing how Brian and other musicians work, you
cannot take a pile of tapes and snips of tones-of-drops and expect anyone to make music out of it, so the tapes were put somewhere and forgotten."
"Another SmileShop reader says that Brian may have edited tapes for the water sounds. Get Real! Brian would not know one end of the tape from another.
This is not his area of expertise. "
"Mr. Vosse uses a few key words to describe his project, the same words I use, but the similarity ends with that. I doubt Vosse even knows what the hell
ELTRON machine is, nor has ever seen one. "
1 of 4 10/24/2005 2:36 PM
Dear Steve,
Right you are I do not know what the hell an Eltron is.
Your keyboard that played water "notes" was probably highly effective at doing what it did.
You are an extremly talented engineer. I for one admire your work. And happily cede to you that you came up with the winning concept in the 'using water as
music' category of things Brian discarded.
I seek no "credit" for my water recordings as regards any eventual releasable product. I just tried to bring back the most widely divers selections of sounds I
could find. That was the mission.
Didn't grab the gold ring. However, I believe my project with Brian was not a "failure."
By trying to grade it on some achievement scale, you flat out miss the
point.
It was an exploration born of curiosity about the sounds one might capture from the element, water. Whether Brian could not splice a tape or not is also
superfluous to the overall project. He was rich and could have hired a tech temp to do the splicing. That he did Not do the things
he discussed doing with the tapes is obvious.
It was fun. It was like going to master class for me.

It did happen, even if you are not so sure about that.
'Round October 1966 Brian handed me a Nagra with a shoulder strap, microphone and many many tapes
My boss guided me to listen with keener ears, fewer preconceptions and greater appreciation.
Yes, yes, his conversations about splicing together actual water sounds
may have been uninformed. But it was about more than matching notes, and it was very much about hearing more than one is used to hearing in familiar
sounds.
I'll never know - maybe he was just finding something for me to do when I was first starting work, maybe it was basic training. Maybe he was jonesin on field
recording.
To borrow from Jerry Garcia that little project was not so much an arrival thing as it was a fascinating journey.
But I enjoyed your lengthy post. And was interested in your explanation of the New tracks on 20/20. I can say with utmost assurance that in 1969 I was not
in any way aware of how 20/20 was recorded. I did hear a difference, and may have heard through some grapevine that these sweetenings and replacings
were total remakes.
In fact anything that happened inside the Beach Boys organization after I was fired in spring of 1967 could have been known to me only second third or 4th
hand.
The fruits of your labors with them is mighty tasty stuff.
And one last thing,dude... I stand corrected on "how" musicians work.
And now realize as you point out one cannot take a pile of tapes and snips of tones of drops and make music. Nor can filmmakers ignore photography and
simply spill light on film emulsion nor writers make novels using drawn from piles of cut up words and phrases.
I know one record producer who tried to make music with paper clips in paper cups with a little echo. How foolish. and I don't think he knew what the hell an
Eltron machine was. Lighten up Stevie.
Hahahahahahaha.
A pissing contest over water sounds.
This is all like figuring out whose name goes on the footnote of the footnote of the urine analysis of unidentifiable protoplasm....
>>>>>If y'all want to discuss something of actual importance- all of you in the USA hurry up and rant to your congresspeople who are poised to cut off
funding for PBS and NPR tomorrow.<<<<<<
To everyone in this message board-

thanks for giving me my first chance in more than 25 years to read that fusion piece.
Other than the water recording and the dubs I recalled Brian playing and his explanation of the coolie working on the railroad, I cannot attest much to the
accuracy of my statements at that time. I think this was done during a Flying Burrito Brothers tour during our 3 days in Boston.
I find my tone throughout rather obnoxious hollywood overblown merda,
especially the relentless use of the imperial "we" as though I were on the band's board of directors. Take it for what it is, a mere glimpse at the view of
someone present during a very interesting period. I think I was high on something or other every day of that winter-spring of '69 so factor that in as well.
Charles LePage Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:09 pm

Site Admin
Welcome, Mr. Vosse. Thanks for dropping by and posting to our humble site.
Joined: 15 Jul 2003
Posts: 756
Can you tell us more about the SMILE songs you heard or were told about, and about the order they would have been in back in 66/67?
Location: Florida
Chris D. Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:09 pm
(waiting for the slew of posts)

Joined: 03 Jan 2004
Posts: 5312
Wow, incredible Mr. Vosse, thanks for dropping in!!!!!!!!!
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Posts: 10959
no I can't or I'd have to kill you.
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HONORED GUEST
Joined: 15 Jun 2005

Posts: 23
Location: USA

Site Admin
It might be worth it.

Joined: 15 Jul 2003
Posts: 756
Location: Florida
doing doing Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:56 pm
Wow. The past IS the present. Here on the smileshop board.

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WOW, great ad tagline.
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Stephen W. Desper Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:23 pm

HONORED GUEST
Replies & comments to your questions:
Comment to Soulful Old Man -- Playing the final Chamberland loaded with the water sounds was a hoot. Back 40 years ago doing such things was next to
Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 243 electronic magic. Now days we easily do such things with digital synthesizers. Any of you that may have fooled around with such animals know the joy that
Location: blending such sound can bring. It was thought that such joy would inspire Brian to use the much labored over Chamberland for CCW, but Brian, true to his
askswd@webtv.net nature, was impulsive and gave it little time for consideration.
Comment to N.T. -- Iron Horse was separate from Cabin but not a complete song.
Comment to Smily -- The reprise of the SMILE tapes for Reprise was an ill faded attempt to out think Brian. No one quite knew how to put it all together,
makeup the missing sections, and sweeten the vocals. It soon was plain that the project would need to wait on Brian for completion – which we have today.
The most completed song was H&V which is why Carl said that was what it was all about. We listened and dissected that master piece many nights and tried
several approaches, but decided it was best to let it be until brother Brian came back to it. I once posted that listening to H&V was like watching an old steam
locomotive mechanism moving along. All the wheels, levers, pistons, and connecting rods moving in synchronisity with each other to make motion. We used to
slow it down to study just what was happening with the vocal parts. What a treat.
Comment to aeijtzsche – Many of those vocals were re-recorded by the older original vocalists including Carl – or more to the point – especially Carl. Those
tracks were worked on while we were on the road. I carried the multi-tracks with me on tour and during free days we would book into a studio and do some
recording; add a vocal or an instrument here and there. Therefore Dennis was in no shape to record vocals of any quality. He may have sung, but nothing of
lasting value. Sorry. Brian was only institutionalized for a few weeks. He regularly contributed to the production values of “20/20” when the boys were in town,
but remember I had the multi-tracks with me on the road, and Brian was back in LA. When we worked on songs in Hollywood, Brian was involved.
Comments to Ian Dylantante and BC – If you really want the inside story about “Sunflower” and “Surf’s Up,” buy my book on the recording of these albums. It
will give you much more appreciation when you listen.
Comments to Jasper -- Never heard of SU part II. Don’t know what you are talking about with your second question on 1st movement. Sorry dude.
Comment to nemo – Well there’s the man himself. Now that we’ve got the water sound confusion straightened out, I’m going to step aside and let them ask
you all about the SMILE period. You were there, I was yet to come. You can give much more accurate answers (and unedited by a magazine) to that time.
There is much confusion about those days and too few people remain that were in the mix of it. I will also be interested in your answers as I may know what
the hell an ELTRON machine is, but really not much about those days when you were Brian’s sidekick. Thanks, also for stopping by and posting.
Good Listening to you, ~ Stephen W. Desper
Thanks for clearing all that up, Stephen. I have your book, and it's incredible!
Take care and keep up the great work!
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HONORED GUEST
Iyam a Stephen W. Desper fan.

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Cam Mott Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:35 pm
Brakhage?
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 1311
Location: Kansas

HONORED GUEST
Stephen W. Desper wrote:

Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 23
Location: USA – If you really want the inside story about “Sunflower” and “Surf’s Up,” buy my book on the recording of these albums. It will give you much more
appreciation when you listen.
What what ? Book title please. Plug, dude. I's buy it.
BTW "Surfs UP" is that the one with the Indian on the cover?
Neil Young was hawking that album to anyone who happened into his home
in the early 70's.

HONORED GUEST
Cam Mott wrote:

Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 23 Brakhage?
Location: USA
yep stan the man
NimrodsSon Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:40 pm
Wow, what an incredible week on the Smile Shop!

Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 297
Mr. Vosse, thank's so much for stopping by and clearing that up about the water tapes. If you're still around and don't mind answering a few questions, I
think some of the biggest ones this article raises are:
1) Based on what you remember, what did Brian have in mind for the recording of You Are(Were) My Sunshine? In the interview, you seem to state that
wanted to include the Workshop song (or Friday Night or whatever you want to call it) as well as Barnyard. Anything you remember about this song would
very helpful, as this is one of the most debated parts of SMiLE
2) Do you have any idea what you were referring to when you mentioned voices dropping out in Wind Chimes and coming back in one at a time, sounding
perdussion instruments? There is a recording that exists where, after the verse, before the big chorus, Brian does a count (1, 2, 1, 2, 3...) and there are 3
false starts on vocals where they drop in and out, and it's done like it was intentional. Do you know if this is what you were talking about, or was it someth
else far more interesting?
3) Anything that you remember about the Elements suite would be extremely helpful information. I guess the biggest question is, do you remember what
pieces were to be a part of it (or did Brian even know at the time). Do you know if Vegetables or Workshop or something else supposed to be the earth
portion? Or if Wind Chimes was supposed to be the wind portion? and do you know if the water portion was supposed to be I Love to say Da Da (In Blue
Hawaii) or the water tapes you recorded or something else? I'm sure you don't know all of this, but anything you remember would be very valuable
information.
4) Do you remember what the 6 minute long, incomplete version of Heroes and Villains that you spoke of would have consisted of?
1 of 4 10/24/2005 2:36 PM
5) There are rumours of a supposed "Barnyard Suite" that Brian was working on. Do you remember anything about this?
That's all I can think of right now. Once again, thank's so much for stopping by.
Last edited by NimrodsSon on Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

Site Admin
nemo wrote:
Joined: 15 Jul 2003
Posts: 745
Location: Florida What what ? Book title please. Plug, dude. I's buy it.
BTW "Surfs UP" is that the one with the Indian on the cover?
Neil Young was hawking that album to anyone who happened into his home
in the early 70's.
http://community-2.webtv.net/askswd/bookorderinginfo/index.html
Neil dug Surf's, wow!

I know he loves the BB's obviously, with the Let's Go Away For A While cut on Journey Through The Past, and the ref in Long May You Run, not to mention
him getting Brian for the Bridge Concert (best show I ever saw, Neil, Brian and The Who in one night, Pete was moved to tears by Brian's performance), but I
had no idea he dug on that album!
Course they were both on Reprise, I wonder if he had anything to do with advising Reprise to sign them?
Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 10943
Aw man, not something ELSE I have to buy!
Joined: 05 Nov 2003

Posts: 2085
Desper's book? Buy it now, you won't be disappointed. Especially for a musician that records their own stuff, it's essential.
Joined: 27 Feb 2005

Posts: 10943

HONORED GUEST
NimrodsSon wrote:
Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 23 Wow, what an incredible week on the Smile Shop!
Location: USA
Mr. Vosse, thank's so much for stopping by and clearing that up about the water tapes. If you're still around and don't mind answering a few questions, I
think some of the biggest ones this article raises are:
1) Based on what you remember, what did Brian have in mind for the recording of You Are(Were) My Sunshine? In the interview, you seem to state that
he wanted to include the Workshop song (or Friday Night or whatever you want to call it) as well as Barnyard. Anything you remember about this song
would be very helpful, as this is one of the most debated parts of SMiLE
2) Do you have any idea what you were referring to when you mentioned voices dropping out in Wind Chimes and coming back in one at a time, sounding
like perdussion instruments? There is a recording that exists where, after the verse, before the big chorus, Brian does a count (1, 2, 1, 2, 3...) and there
are 3 or 4 false starts on vocals where they drop in and out, and it's done like it was intentional. Do you know if this is what you were talking about, or
was it something else far more interesting?
3) Anything that you remember about the Elements suite would be extremely helpful information. I guess the biggest question is, do you remember what
pieces were to be a part of it (or did Brian even know at the time). Do you know if Vegetables or Workshop or something else supposed to be the earth
portion? Or if Wind Chimes was supposed to be the wind portion? and do you know if the water portion was supposed to be I Love to say Da Da (In Blue
Hawaii) or the water tapes you recorded or something else? I'm sure you don't know all of this, but anything you remember would be very valuable
information.
4) Do you remember what the 6 minute long, incomplete version of Heroes and Villains that you spoke of would have consisted of?
5) There are rumours of a supposed "Barnyard Suite" that Brian was working on. Do you remember anything about this?
That's all I can think of right now. Once again, thank's so much for stopping by.
1. I don't remember. I think all those things happened but not necessarily in the order or context I described. People sawed wood people made critter
sounds... but these various noises could have had different destinations.
2. Reading that interview now I recall listening to what I described as voices dropping out... not a count down. But someone here suggested that Brian m
have been playing with the dials just to hear what that sounded like and happened to record and make a dub of that - I have no idea what's the real story
this. But again I don't think it was people counting down.
3. Elements - nah. I don't recall anything being laid out as "the elements" I just remember conversations about that. But justto stir things up here - a notio
that at some point elements was to be an instrumental suite -- or at least a composition without lyrics...
4. H&V - I do not. But I like Steve's description of listening to it -- it is one of my favorite BW/VDP creations and all around favorites in any arena.
2 of 4 10/24/2005 2:36 PM
5. sounds familar but I'm not sure.
nemo Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:04 am

HONORED GUEST
Ian, Dylantante wrote:

Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 23 Neil dug Surf's, wow!
Location: USA I know he loves the BB's obviously, with the Let's Go Away For A While cut on Journey Through The Past, and the ref in Long May You Run, not to mention
him getting Brian for the Bridge Concert (best show I ever saw, Neil, Brian and The Who in one night, Pete was moved to tears by Brian's performance),
but I had no idea he dug on that album!
Course they were both on Reprise, I wonder if he had anything to do with advising Reprise to sign them?
I am sure he championed the cause personally.

But Mo was into BB's way earlier though. And was first at bat back when brother records was conceived as the next step away from Capitol.Yeh that was a
good Bridge - bested maybe though by the one with David Bowie,Townsend, Pearl Jam and Patti Smith... with Neil and Patti closing out on "helpless"
nemo Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:11 am

HONORED GUEST
hmm
Joined: 15 Jun 2005 one fantasy is neil singing vegie-tables
Posts: 23
in another Brian does the needle and the damage done
Location: USA
but meanwhile
in your own itunes or whatever
try segue of H&V into Neil'sCortez
hahahahahahah
SMiLEY Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:17 am
Incredible.
Thank you, Michael. They're going to have to write a new book after all this!!
Mind elaborating on the circumstances of being 'fired'? It doesn't sound like you harbor any ill feelings about it, hence my asking.
Joined: 18 Jul 2003
Posts: 1152
of 23rd St. NYC
SMiLEY Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:18 am
Oh, and welcome to the SMiLE shop posse!
Joined: 18 Jul 2003

Posts: 1152
of 23rd St. NYC
NimrodsSon Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:23 am
SMiLEY wrote:
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 297 Incredible.
Thank you, Michael. They're going to have to write a new book after all this!!
Mind elaborating on the circumstances of being 'fired'? It doesn't sound like you harbor any ill feelings about it, hence my asking.
Michael should write a book! I'd buy it in a heartbeat! Any plans to? It'd be a good money-maker, with all the SMiLE stuff going around right now, to have a
first-hand account from somebody who actually remembers.
_Andy_ Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:27 am
Wow...
Joined: 01 Aug 2003
Posts: 1060
Location: Indianapolis, imo
Thank you to everyone for stopping by and posting! This is great!
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Another question, Mr. Vosse. What are your thoughts on the new recording of SMiLE by Brian
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 292
and his band? Have you heard it? Do you think it does the old recordings justice? Do you think
Location: Snellville, GA it's very similar or very different from what Brian had in mind in 1967?
Michael St.Pierre Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:35 am
Dear Mr. Vosse,

Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 9
Was it your perception that the
prescription amphetamines being allegedly consumed at the time may have been a lar
contributing factor to some of the more outrageous
paranoid behavior (fire sessions
Phil Spector conspiracy, etc)
exhibited at the time ?
This is rarely discussed as a
contributing factor in Smile's
demise(or in it's creation, for that matter) even though paranoid
behavior is a "normal" side affect of the drug's consumption.
And was Heroes & Villians going to be a double sided 45 ?
And thank you for taking the time

to answer these questions.
-Michael
1 of 5 10/24/2005 2:36 PM
cabinessence Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:44 am
I'll let others who've been waiting years to ask them line up with their questions ahead of me. I
Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 604
just want to say what a pleasure it's been to meet you twice this week, once in a time machine
set for 1969 and here again right now three days later! What a thrill (and both of you seem like
the same decent person, no need to worry about how you came off in that
interview...unpretentious, nonjudgementally aware of what goes on around you, candid, and
straight-shooting.)
Paul R. Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:50 am
Michael, thanks for your comments and info! Incredible! Now - Heroes and Villains - We all know
of the "single" version and the "In the Cantina" version (from the BB's Good Vibrations box set).
Do you remember others?
Paul
Joined: 27 Feb 2004

Posts: 160
guitarfool2002 Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:37 am
Looks like I picked the wrong night to work all night long...well, at least I was recording music.
Joined: 18 Jul 2003 Mr. Vosse and Mr. Desper, this is a total suprise and a total pleasure to see you posting on this
Posts: 2007 board. Thank you - for everything.
Someday, maybe, all of the water and nature sounds the both of you recorded will be released
on a deluxe box set for all of us obsessives.
Along with that stash of Sony Porta-Pak home videos that were shot of all you guys hanging
around with Brian back then...
-Craig
Eric W. Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:28 am
Absolutely brilliant! Thanks to our illustrious guests for sharing their wisdom...on the board...at
Joined: 08 Sep 2003
Posts: 422
the same time!
Location: UK
Jerry Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:37 am
Mr Vosse,
2 of 5 10/24/2005 2:36 PM
Joined: 27 Feb 2004

Posts: 236
Do you have any memories from 1966-67 of the song "Child is Father of the Man"? Were there
lyrics (other than the title)?
Rockster Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:52 am
Mr Vosse and/or Mr Desper:
Do you remember anyone of the Beach Boys having problems or disliking the Smile-material?
We wondered about Carl, 'cause Brian says nowadays that Carl didn't like Smile, still he tried to
work on it in the 70s with Mr Desper...
Joined: 06 Jun 2005

Posts: 124
Germany
gk Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:18 am
Wind Chimes vocal stuff - sounds to me like Brian was maybe doing with the vocal parts from
Joined: 28 Feb 2004
Posts: 13
the 2nd section what he did with the music box piano parts from the 3rd section. Start with one
part, then bring in another part, and so on. This is pretty fascinating stuff. My thanks also to all
who've contributed to this discussion.
Nobody Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:58 am
Nobody's going to ask Michael about the skits?!

Joined: 15 Jul 2003
Posts: 3034
Mr. Vosse --
Welcome!
We have heard about hours and hours of tapes of skits. We have heard about you and Brian and
Hal Blaine doing skits about vegetables. We have heard about you and Brian and David Anderle
and Bob Gordon doing hours of chanting about the Elements -- there's water chants and air
chants and vegetable chants. We have heard about you and David and Van Dyke and Brian
doing skits about Brian being stuck in a piano. The list goes on and on.
What was this stuff for?
The humor album? Smile itself? Did Brian ever reveal to you his intentions?
Also: We've got a nagra reel of you taping a basketball game. You tell somebody at the game
"It's for the Beach Boys" and then it's just...the game. Squeaky sneakers, basketballs bouncing,
all treated with tons and tons of echo.
Remember what that might've been for, sir?
Jeff Mason Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:13 am
And I took the night off last night.....
3 of 5 10/24/2005 2:36 PM
Joined: 22 Feb 2004

Posts: 2189
Location: Ohio
Peacho Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:16 am
Enough already with bloody tapes of water sounds. Mista V...tell us about Gram Parsons.
Joined: 24 Feb 2004
Posts: 31
Stephen W. Desper Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:43 am

HONORED GUEST
Book ordering information at the below link. All books are numbered for you who are collectors.
Audiophiles should also consider the 360Surround device discribed at the site. It takes me a few
Joined: 15 Jun 2005 weeks to process orders, but doing it ASAP. ~swd
Posts: 227
Location: askswd@webtv.net http://community-2.webtv.net/@HH!09!2D!C4B46FD2A8E9/askswd/bookorderinginfo/page3.html
Bubba Ho-Tep Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:53 am

Is it possible Vosse and Desper are the same person, which is why you never see them
together at the same time?
Stephen W. Desper wrote:

We are different people
That's hilarious!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Vosse, it is a pleasure to have this opportunity to speak to you directly. I have questions,
and I ask if you have even the slightest recollection of these events:
The Smile album was due in January 1967. At some point in mid-December, Brian communicated
with Capitol, indicating that the album would be ready by Jan. 15. At the time of this
conversation, a listing of tracks were given to Capitol which were used to press the Smile album
jackets.
Do recall any conversation with Brian during this time about the contents of Smile, or concern
about the deadline? Did Brian really believe he could finish the record by mid-January? Since the
album covers were being pressed, is it safe to say that these titles were set in stone as the
album lineup?
And one more: It seems a lot of tape is missing from the BB vaults. Do you recall Brian, at any
time, erasing lead vocals tracks, or destroying tapes altogether?
4 of 5 10/24/2005 2:36 PM
Joined: 18 Feb 2004

Posts: 1403
Location: Shady Acres Rest
Home
EXCELLENT, excellent questions, Jon!

Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 292
Location: Snellville, GA Administrators, would we be allowed to post a link to a 20 second or so clip of that Wind Chimes
thing for Mr. Vosse to listen to if he would like?

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hrtshpdbox Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:59 am
nemo wrote:
Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 830
Location: Harrisburg, PA no I can't or I'd have to kill you.
Holy mergatroid, I'm just now catching up on this thread (and I savor that I still have three pages of it to go). How fortunate and wonderful that Messrs.
Desper and Vosse have brought their authoritative voices to what was already a great conversation. Wow.
JoshuaDOOM Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:10 pm
Mr Vosse: How were you involved with the Vegatables Chants and do you remember which part was yours?
Joined: 04 Apr 2005
Posts: 504
Location: Philadelphia, PA.
Dan Lega Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:52 pm
Mr. Vosse and Mr. Desper, thanks so much for great info! I can definitely see Brian hearing the water sounds effects tapes from Mr. Vosse and saying that he
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 can hear tones in them, and then thinking that if there were some way to splice out all the different tones he could then construct a piece of music out of
Posts: 484
them. I can see Brian getting someone to splice the tape all up, and then label each splice with the note name it corresponds to, and then with a specific
melody/arrangement in mind to then splice the tape back to make that piece of music! Would have been a monumental task, absolutely monumental -- and
that's probably why Brian didn't do it -- but what a cool idea.
Mr. Vosse, if you're still around, is there any chance you happen to remember the name of the person who conducted the "Fusion" interview with you? I
just thought the published interview might have been edited down, and if so, then perhaps the interviewee has a longer version of his talk with you that he
stashed away somewhere?
N. T. Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:08 pm
Thank you Mr. Desper and Mr. Vosse for taking the time to answer questions. Very generous of you both!
Joined: 12 Sep 2004

Posts: 246
1 of 4 10/24/2005 2:36 PM
bicyclerider Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:28 pm
Dan Lega wrote:

Joined: 26 Feb 2004
Posts: 545 Mr. Vosse and Mr. Desper, thanks so much for great info! I can definitely see Brian hearing the water sounds effects tapes from Mr. Vosse and saying
that he can hear tones in them, and then thinking that if there were some way to splice out all the different tones he could then construct a piece of music
out of them. I can see Brian getting someone to splice the tape all up, and then label each splice with the note name it corresponds to, and then with a
specific melody/arrangement in mind to then splice the tape back to make that piece of music! Would have been a monumental task, absolutely
monumental -- and that's probably why Brian didn't do it -- but what a cool idea.
NOW I see why Brian has said finishing Smile would have taken another year with the recording technology of the time!
P.J. Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:29 pm
Alright Mr. Desper and Vosse... "On A Holiday (Holidays)". Was there always a plan for the "Plymouth Rock" reprise?
Joined: 14 Jul 2004

Posts: 1010
nemo Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:44 pm

HONORED GUEST
Michael St.Pierre wrote:

Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 23 Dear Mr. Vosse,
Location: USA Was it your perception that the
prescription amphetamines being allegedly consumed at the time may have been a large contributing factor to some of the more outrageous
paranoid behavior (fire sessions
Phil Spector conspiracy, etc)
exhibited at the time ?
This is rarely discussed as a
contributing factor in Smile's
demise(or in it's creation, for that matter) even though paranoid
behavior is a "normal" side affect of the drug's consumption.
And was Heroes & Villians going to be a double sided 45 ?
And thank you for taking the time

to answer these questions.
-Michael
1. Not aware of those Rx's. I made reference to My druggy habits around the time of the 1969 Fusion thing.

HONORED GUEST
Jon Hunt wrote:

Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 23 Nobody's going to ask Michael about the skits?!
Location: USA
Mr. Vosse --
Welcome!
We've got hours and hours of tapes of skits. We've got you and Brian and Hal Blaine doing skits about vegetables. We've got you and Brian and David
Anderle and Bob Gordon doing hours of chanting about the Elements -- there's water chants and air chants and vegetable chants. We've got you and
David and Van Dyke and Brian doing skits about Brian being stuck in a piano. The list goes on and on.
Also: We've got a nagra reel of you taping a basketball game. You tell somebody at the game "It's for the Beach Boys" and then it's just...the game.
Squeaky sneakers, basketballs bouncing, all treated with tons and tons of echo.
I would appreciate copies of all this foolishness.
Surfer Joe Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:49 pm
It doesn't get any better than this. This thread is everything that's great about the internet, starting with the presentation of the interview itself, and now
we're joined by TWO (2) [II] major people from the absolute top of the wish list.
Whatever happens with this site, it's sure going up in a mushroom cloud.
Joined: 02 Jul 2004

Posts: 392
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
2 of 4 10/24/2005 2:36 PM
guitarfool2002 Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:49 pm
Mr. Vosse, I know this has been asked before, but do you remember hearing or discussing any of Brian's plans for the skits or the rhythmic chanting you were
recording with him in 1966? Was it ever to be set to music, and was it for a separate project other than Smile? There seemed to be a deeper reason for Brian
recording the chants and skits with his friends, and I've always wondered if he had any specific plans for these tapes.
Joined: 18 Jul 2003
Posts: 2032 Thank you so much for posting here, we're loving all of this so much...
-Craig
dvakman Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:55 pm
OK, Mr. Vosse is here. I respect Jon and John's wishes, but I'm breaking my silence for a moment.
The song "Child is the Father of the Man" had a new verse written for 2004. Do you recall any elements to the original song in 1966 that were different, such
as alternate lyrics to the song? Dennis described it as a "cowboy song" in one interview at the time, which is different than the song Brian and Van completed
in 2004. Do you know what Dennis may have meant by that?
Joined: 12 Apr 2004

Posts: 424
Location: New Orleans

HONORED GUEST
Peacho wrote:
Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 23 Enough already with bloody tapes of water sounds. Mista V...tell us about Gram Parsons.
Location: USA
This is the wrong message board for that.

The DVD of "Fallen Angel", Gandulf Henning's excellent documentary about Gram, should be released soon.
nemo wrote:
Jon Hunt wrote:
Nobody's going to ask Michael about the skits?!
Mr. Vosse --
Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 1010
Location: South Texas Welcome!
We've got hours and hours of tapes of skits. We've got you and Brian and Hal Blaine doing skits about vegetables. We've got you and
Brian and David Anderle and Bob Gordon doing hours of chanting about the Elements -- there's water chants and air chants and
vegetable chants. We've got you and David and Van Dyke and Brian doing skits about Brian being stuck in a piano. The list goes on and
on.
Also: We've got a nagra reel of you taping a basketball game. You tell somebody at the game "It's for the Beach Boys" and then it's
just...the game. Squeaky sneakers, basketballs bouncing, all treated with tons and tons of echo.
I would appreciate copies of all this foolishness.
LOL.

HONORED GUEST
dvakman wrote:
Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 23 OK, Mr. Vosse is here. I respect Jon and John's wishes, but I'm breaking my silence for a moment.
Location: USA
The song "Child is the Father of the Man" had a new verse written for 2004. Do you recall any elements to the original song in 1966 that were different,
such as alternate lyrics to the song? Dennis described it as a "cowboy song" in one interview at the time, which is different than the song Brian and Van
completed in 2004. Do you know what Dennis may have meant by that?
What do you mean "break silence?" Are you in some trappist wing of this group?
Sorry I don't recall anything but the title of "Child is..." and that it was earlier from wordsworth and later "Blood Sweat and Tears", the Good BS&T with Al
Kooper !
3 of 4 10/24/2005 2:36 PM
I don't know if anybody told you, Mr. Vosse, but there's been a sort of fissue in the Smile Shop (now Smiley Smile Shop). Several key members are taking a
break. Though I pray they'll return when they see fit.
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I don't mean to keep firing off questions like this, but it is such a rare opportunity to be able to ask them.
Mr. Vosse, do you recall anything about filming the Good Vibrations promo video in 1966? You have a great cameo in the film, getting sprayed by water at
Joined: 18 Jul 2003 the end, and I was wondering if you could share any memories about making that film with Brian. And was that *the* Bob Gordon in the film, with the camera
Posts: 2013 around his neck?
Thanks!
Craig

HONORED GUEST
Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 23 I don't mean to keep firing off questions like this, but it is such a rare opportunity to be able to ask them.
Location: USA
Mr. Vosse, do you recall anything about filming the Good Vibrations promo video in 1966? You have a great cameo in the film, getting sprayed by water
at the end, and I was wondering if you could share any memories about making that film with Brian. And was that *the* Bob Gordon in the film, with the
camera around his neck?
Thanks!
Craig
You have seen that ?? I have not in many years.

I would know Bob on sight but I do not recall the entire cast.
nemo wrote:
Joined: 18 Jul 2003 I don't mean to keep firing off questions like this, but it is such a rare opportunity to be able to ask them.
Posts: 2013
Mr. Vosse, do you recall anything about filming the Good Vibrations promo video in 1966? You have a great cameo in the film, getting
sprayed by water at the end, and I was wondering if you could share any memories about making that film with Brian. And was that
*the* Bob Gordon in the film, with the camera around his neck?
Thanks!
Craig
You have seen that ?? I have not in many years.

I would know Bob on sight but I do not recall the entire cast.
I have seen it and I love it! One of my favorite pieces of Beach Boys video, actually of all 60's rock video/film. There is a long shot of the guy some of us th
is Bob Gordon slowly walking down a steep green hillside, somewhere, with a camera. He's wearing the firehat, groovy 60's oval shades, and a blue shirt a
jeans. He is thin and looks somewhat tall as well. It's actually funny to see him walking down the hill for some reason, even though it didn't make much se
originally. I'd love to have it confirmed that it's Bob.
I came *this close* to contacting the LAFD historical department to find out who the firemen in the video were, since the fire station where the promo was
shot is now the LAFD Museum and historical archive, and if they might remember anything about the filming with Brian, you, and the others that day in '66
You're also briefly seen sitting on the lawn in back of Diane Rovell as the firemen are looking into the camera. That's how obsessive I've gotten about
researching that piece of film!
1 of 3 10/24/2005 2:36 PM
-Craig
dvakman Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:13 pm
Mr. Vosse,
Do you recall ever hearing a completed "Surf's Up"?
Apparently there was a full production of the 2nd section of the song (Dove Nested Towers...), that was more than just Brian at the piano. A tape apprently
exists from 1967 but no one 'round these parts has heard it. Ring a bell?
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 420
Location: New Orleans
emansea Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:17 pm
"That's how obsessive I've gotten about researching that piece of film!"
not obsessive, craig. you and many of us here are just passionate about the smile vibe. i'm sure mr. vosse understands that. he seems quite the cool cat
like everyone else around brian at that time. van's cool, david anderle's cool, brian's cool, danny hutton's cool...
Joined: 24 Jul 2003

Posts: 203
vintage room. : )
NimrodsSon Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:36 pm
If no one else has responded to your post, Mr. Vosse, if you really want copies of those chanting tapes, basketball game, etc. send me a private message on
Joined: 27 Apr 2004 this board or an email at afos516@juno.com and I'll be more than happy to either let you download them from me (do you know how to use P2P filesharing
Posts: 296
programs, such as soulseek (www.slsknet.org) ?) or mail you some CD's via snail mail.
Tony W Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:06 am
There is a long shot of the guy some of us think is Bob Gordon slowly walking down a steep green hillside, somewhere, with a camera. He's wearing the
firehat, groovy 60's oval shades, and a blue shirt and jeans. He is thin and looks somewhat tall as well. It's actually funny to see him walking down the hill
for some reason, even though it didn't make much sense originally. I'd love to have it confirmed that it's Bob.
Joined: 18 Jul 2003
Posts: 62
Location: Somewhere, East
Coast, Australia Thanks for shedding some light on this scene. I have actually posted requests on the SMiLE Board a number of times to try to find the ID of this individual and
never (yep - never) received a reply - thus I thought no one cared.
I'm now no wiser but at least I know I'm not alone on this subject.
Catman Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:30 am
Wow,this is awesome!
Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Posts: 122
Mr. Vosse- What was the deal with Brian destroying some of the Smile tapes?Did he do it?If so,how many?What was on them?
Location: Mobile, Alabama
It's truelly a honor,sir.
zaccmartin Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:15 am
great stuff.
Joined: 26 Feb 2004

Posts: 319
Location: The Forgotten
South
zelilgirlI1cenu Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:22 pm
Took me some time to get to it, but incredible read.
2 of 3 10/24/2005 2:36 PM
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Posts: 688
bicyclerider Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:35 pm
Mr. Vosse - a couple of more pestering questions about the SMile era, if you don't mind. In the Fusion interview you mention "arguments" between Mike
Joined: 26 Feb 2004 and Brian about the lyrics and the Beach Boys being concerned about being able to reproduce the Smile music live. To what extent did the other Beach Boys
Posts: 543
(Carl in particular) share Mike's concern about the lyrics? And did Mike and the Beach Boys resistance to either the lyrics and/or the music (in terms of being
not reproduceable on stage) undermine Brian's confidence in the Smile album, ultimately causing him to abandon it? Or was that just one factor along with
others you mention (the lawsuit, Murry Wilson not liking the new Brian posse, etc).
thanks.
Jeff Mason Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:38 pm
Oooo! Good one! Vosse comments on The Thread!
(Mr. Vosse, just so you know, The Thread is whether or not the other members of the band hated Smile and worked against its completion or not. There is
controversy in our world over how much approval or disapproval other members showed it).
Joined: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 2189
Location: Ohio
PapaNez22 Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:08 pm
FINALLY got around to reading most of the thread and WOW! Great job with the questions guys and many thank yous for Mr. Vosse & Mr. Depser for taking
Joined: 10 Nov 2003 the time to interact with us! It's too damn bad I'm never around with this merda goes down.
Posts: 640
Location: Cubs Nation
P.J. Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:14 pm
Mr. Vosse and Desper, any thoughts on "He Gives Speeches"? Why wasn't it included on the realized SMiLE? Where would it have fit in back in '67?
Joined: 14 Jul 2004

Posts: 1009
Brain Wilson Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:41 pm
so...has anyone made sure that Vosse and Desper know where this thread is?
Joined: 26 Feb 2004
Posts: 8
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NimrodsSon Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:54 pm
Whoa, I saw your username and thought for a second Brian Wilson had come in to join the conversation. Anyways, there's an automatic redirect to this forum
Joined: 27 Apr 2004 whenever someone tries to go to the old Smile Shop, so they shouldn't have any problem getting here, plus they came last night, after it had already been
Posts: 162
changed. (but I am afraid this green everywhere might freak them out. I'm not too sure about it, maybe a different shade of green would do better.)
nemo Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:08 pm

HONORED GUEST
Jeff Mason wrote:

Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 23 Oooo! Good one! Vosse comments on The Thread!
Location: USA
(Mr. Vosse, just so you know, The Thread is whether or not the other members of the band hated Smile and worked against its completion or not. There
is controversy in our world over how much approval or disapproval other members showed it).
Yep. Well, sorry, I will not be contributing to that thread.
nemo Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:10 pm

HONORED GUEST
Catman wrote:
Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 23 Wow,this is awesome!
Location: USA
Mr. Vosse- What was the deal with Brian destroying some of the Smile tapes?Did he do it?If so,how many?What was on them?
It's truelly a honor,sir.
I never saw or could in any way verify anyone destroying tapes.

Sounds unlikely.
SurferGirl7 Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:28 pm
Hello Mr. Vosse if your still on, I had a question (whoever are the experts on SMiLE, forgive me) but was there suppose to be an air piece? Brian did once say
it was just an instrumental and that was it but did you ever hear it? This is truly an amazing post. Hard to soak all of this information
_________________
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Posts: 316
Location: W.Chester,PA
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Rockster Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:28 pm
Mr Vosse, do you know anything about the sessions Dennis and Carl had for their own stuff? Wanted Brian them to be more involved into producing or did
both just try it to see how it works?
_________________
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Posts: 74
Germany
Costly Bow Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:05 pm
dvakman wrote:
Mr. Vosse,
Do you recall ever hearing a completed "Surf's Up"?
Apparently there was a full production of the 2nd section of the song (Dove Nested Towers...), that was more than just Brian at the piano. A tape
Joined: 02 Jun 2004
apprently exists from 1967 but no one 'round these parts has heard it. Ring a bell?
Posts: 338
Great Q! And what of any missing tapes, 2nd versions, please DO tell!
_________________
"Early in the mornin' at the break of day he used to sleep until the afternoon"- Neil
Peter Reum Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:28 pm

HONORED GUEST
Without a doubt, this is one of the most fascinating threads ever on this or any other Bran/BB Message Board. Thanks to all who contribute.
_________________
The romance won't end on a sorrowful note,
Though by tomorrow you're gone;
The song is ended, but as the songwriter notes, "The melody lingers on."
They can't take that away from me.....
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Posts: 819
Location: Montana
NimrodsSon Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:45 pm
Mr. Vosse, do you know anything (even the most vague recollection, it really doesn't matter, just anything at all) about these lyrics:
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Quote:
Posts: 162
Location: Snellville, GA Reconnected telephones direct dialing
Different color cords to your extension
Don't forget to mention
This is a recording
Even though the echoes in my mind

Have filtered through the pines
I came and found my peace
And this is not a recording
Dooby doo, dooby doo, or not dooby
Apparently they are unused lyrics to some part of Cabinessence, but no one has ever been able to tell where they would fit in, or if, possibly they were written
for an unused section of Cabinessence that we haven't heard.
Thanks
Mitchell Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:19 pm
Is there any chance that others were able to listen to these tapes without Brian's permission? There's a very long standing rumour that Gary Usher was privvy
to some of the SMiLE tapes and he gleaned inspiration from them for his "My World Fell Down" single. Similar tales have also implicated that The Beatles may
have heard some SMiLE's tapes. Is there any truth to these rumours (as far as you know)?
Joined: 05 Nov 2003

Posts: 1835
P.J. Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:13 am
Mr. Vosse and Desper, any thoughts on "He Gives Speeches"? Why wasn't it included on the realized SMiLE? Where would it have fit in back in '67?
Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 864 _________________
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AIM: DaeornAldalome
Reverend Rock Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:50 am
One week away from the computer, and I come home to this incredible stuff...whew...
I have no questions. I just want to thank Mr.s Desper and Vosse for all the insightful observations and answers, and say that I've had a blast reading the
threads of the past week tonight.
2 of 3 10/24/2005 2:37 PM
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The Rev
"...God reached softly..."
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Posts: 1034
Location: The Hills of
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cabinessence Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 2:55 am
A Question to Michael Vosse if Captain Nemo is still gliding through our depths, aquatic question aptly enough.
Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 558
You said in 1969 that Murry showed up unexpectedly at the David Oppenheim Inside Pop session in his bathing trunks, and a lot of time got taken up
shooting his reputedly expert diving and related underwater stuff as Brian was forced (by who?) to keep supplying a running commentary.
No, I'm not going to ask if this was part of the "Water" section of Smile. Just curious if you remembered any more details.
Michael St.Pierre Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:14 am
Forgive me Mr. Vosse if you have

Joined: 19 Feb 2004 already answered this question, but
Posts: 9
was it your impression that Heroes
and Villians was originally intended to be a two sided 45?
Any recollections on this subject
at all would be appreciated.
Cam Mott Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:50 am
Michael,
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 1190
Can you remember what radio station[s] Brian listened to when you two were together?
Location: Kansas
Was there anything playing on his turntable more than "usual" during that period when you would visit?
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nemo Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 6:00 pm

HONORED GUEST
cabinessence wrote:
Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 23 A Question to Michael Vosse if Captain Nemo is still gliding through our depths, aquatic question aptly enough.
Location: USA
You said in 1969 that Murry showed up unexpectedly at the David Oppenheim Inside Pop session in his bathing trunks, and a lot of time got taken up
shooting his reputedly expert diving and related underwater stuff as Brian was forced (by who?) to keep supplying a running commentary.
No, I'm not going to ask if this was part of the "Water" section of Smile. Just curious if you remembered any more details.
not much - Murry may have been expected.

He was ready for his close up. The CBS crew got the shots they needed of Brian and BB's, so NBD.
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nemo Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 6:03 pm

HONORED GUEST
Michael St.Pierre wrote:

Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 23 Forgive me Mr. Vosse if you have
Location: USA already answered this question, but
was it your impression that Heroes
and Villians was originally intended to be a two sided 45?
Any recollections on this subject
at all would be appreciated.
As I recall at some point in the composition's history, Brian and other people discussed the possibility of releasing the song as a 2 sided single.
NimrodsSon Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 6:56 pm
Mr. Vosse, In this Fusion interview you mention that SMiLE was supposed to end with Surf's Up and then a choral "a-men" sort of thing. When you spoke
Joined: 27 Apr 2004 of this "a-men thing, were you referring to "Our Prayer"? Or were you possibly referring to the Surf's Up tag that was recorded in 1971 with the "A childrens
Posts: 162
song, have you listened..." lyrics over top of the Child is Father of Man vocals? Or were you referring to an actual "amen" like the end of a hymn? Or do you
even remember?
Susan Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:44 pm
Okay, don't yell at me - i just now read the interview. Amazing insight into that time period!
Most astonishing thing to me: Brian loved to bowl!! That image just cracks me up!
I wonder if he gets to go bowling nowadays...if he even gets the alley jones.
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Posts: 111 My Dad's Truck : Free-range Acoustic! BUSY DOIN' SOMETHIN' ELSE CONVENTION NEWS!
SurferGirl7 Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:49 pm
I thought that was cool Susan too. My mom loves to bowl. She got a kick out of it.
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Peter Reum Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:24 pm

HONORED GUEST
Hey Debbie Keil loaned her collection to me for years, which included a pair of Brian's old bowling shoes. Size 10 and 1/2. I rolled a 693 series in them one
night. My best series ever.
1 of 3 10/24/2005 2:37 PM
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They can't take that away from me.....
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Posts: 821
Location: Montana
Andy B Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:41 am
I managed to read all this stuff just yesterday, after being away for a while. Amazing stuff, and wholehearted thanks to Mr Desper and Mr Vosse for their
Joined: 07 Jan 2004 contributions and insight.
Posts: 205
Location: Birmingham,
England The Fusion article must rank as one of the best Smile articles ever committed to type, and has left us with a whole lorry load of questions. The thing that gets
to me, is that even in writing about Smile or describing certain tracks or fragments, creates an energy that is most alluring. This music was powerful stuff, i
make no bones about that!!
Mr Vosse, sir. Just as a general question (if you are still around). What was or is your overriding memory from the Smile era? Does anything in particular stnd
out?
Crow Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 2:08 pm
I can't get this to download!!! Somebody please help!

Joined: 11 Mar 2004
Posts: 190 _________________
How high are my peaks? No one has yet told me. But my valleys I know well. - Friedrich Nietzsche
Catman Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:23 am
Mr. Desper and Mr. Vosse-God bless you both.Your kindness and time spent with us is worth more than money.Thank you.
Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Posts: 111
Location: Mobile, Alabama
Charles LePage Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:14 am

Site Admin
I've moved the questions and answers that were purely to and from Stephen Desper to the "Stephen Desper" thread, to make them easier to find and read.
Joined: 15 Jul 2003
Posts: 306
Of course, everyone is welcome to post in either thread. Just trying to keep the flow of information as free and easy as possible.
Location: Florida
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halleluwah Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:42 pm
Ian, Lohaniac wrote:
Neil dug Surf's, wow!

I know he loves the BB's obviously, with the Let's Go Away For A While cut on Journey Through The Past, and the ref in Long May You Run, not to mention
him getting Brian for the Bridge Concert (best show I ever saw, Neil, Brian and The Who in one night, Pete was moved to tears by Brian's performance),
Joined: 11 Dec 2004 but I had no idea he dug on that album!
Posts: 205 Course they were both on Reprise, I wonder if he had anything to do with advising Reprise to sign them?
Location: Springfield,
Missouri
Ian, I was just re-reading the Neil bio "Shakey" by Jimmy McDonough, and I ran across a bit that brought your "Surf's Up" comment to mind. He's talking to
the author about several of the 66/67 era LA groups (Love, The Doors, The Byrds, etc.), and he eventually gets around to mentioning the Beach Boys:
"I loved The Beach Boys. I hung out with Mike and Dennis - Dennis and I were real tight. Brian's a genius. Ever heard this song Brian wrote called "A Day in
the Life of a Tree?" Great song, man."
Elsewhere, he's relating the anecdote about how Buffalo Springfield got their name off the side of a steamroller, and he says that when he saw it, he was
walking down the street with Stills and Van Dyke Parks. The connections never end...
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Ian, Lohaniac Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:46 pm
FORGOT that bit, man, thanks!

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Posts: 8993
Bill Tobelman Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:56 pm
There is a Van Dyke Parks quote somewhere that goes, "People who experimented with psychedelics---no matter who they were---were viewed as 'enlighte
people,' and Brian sought out the enlightened people."
This quote seems to go with one from the Vosse article; "...Anderle and I and his old lady were living in a little garage in downtown LA. And one night Van
Dyke Parks came over; he said that he was doing this thing with Brian, and suggested that we all go over there sometime."
2 of 3 10/24/2005 2:37 PM
Joined: 21 Jul 2003 It seems that these were the right people for Brian at that time.
Posts: 358
_________________
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jonathan anderle Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:26 am

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especially the old lady.

Joined: 28 Feb 2004
Posts: 19
(again michael, don't worry 'bout that. it was years and years ago, you were on god knows what at the time, and they wouldn't have spelled her name right
anyways...)
Peter Reum Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:33 am

HONORED GUEST
Ok, Jonathan, now you have gotten me curious...what IS your mom's first name? if it is not too personal a question....Mine's is Lola, you know, what Lola
wants, Lola......
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Posts: 821
Location: Montana
jonathan anderle Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:55 am

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sherril.
Joined: 28 Feb 2004
Posts: 19
not the most common spelling, i'll grant you. but i've seen it spelled a different way in just about every beach boys book, article, ect. that i've seen her
mentioned in. and looking at the way they mangled abe somer's name (and his firm's name for that matter) in that article, she wouldn't have stood a chance...
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JoshuaDOOM Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 9:15 am
wow. more of the original folk are appearing.

Joined: 04 Apr 2005
Posts: 460
::bows::
Location: Philadelphia, PA.
_________________
doom.
OGD R3PR3Z3N7!!
"Yeah, it's doom, that's fine" Brian Wilson.
Costly Bow: I think it's a choclate syrup that you put on ice cream, then it hardens into a crackly chocolate wonder!
alovisi Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 7:08 pm
A question for Mike Vosse in particular, or anyone else who can shed light on this. Having finally seen the SMiLE DVD (hooray!) and in particular the Van
Dyke interview with Brian, mention was made of 2 characters – ‘Sunny Down Snuff’ and ‘Winslow’.
The way I took it, ‘Sunny Down Snuff’ may have been an inside joke or pet name for Van Dyke, whilst VDP himself directly referred to Brian as 'Winslow'
towards the end of the interview segment. Beyond the direct reference to 'Sunny' in the Heroes & Villains lyric, is there any meaning or symbolism behind
the nicknames? Those guys come across as having a very intuitive relationship with each other.
Joined: 18 Feb 2004 Much obliged...

Posts: 53
Location: Grover's
Restaurant
Bill Tobelman Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:00 pm
I also have a question for Michael Vosse if he doesn't mind answering...
In 1969 you described SMiLE as;

"...basically a Southern California non-country oriented, gospel album-on a very sophisticated level."
How would you describe SMiLE in 2005?
Joined: 21 Jul 2003 _________________

Posts: 358 "Innerness, mysticism, and love are their alternatives to political action."-David Oppenheim
cabinessence Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:11 pm
Quote:
Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 557 The way I took it, ‘Sunny Down Snuff’ may have been an inside joke or pet name for Van Dyke, whilst VDP himself directly referred to Brian as 'Winslow'
towards the end of the interview segment.
That was my impression upon watching the clip. Winslow is certainly what Van Dyke calls Brian. 'Sunny Down Snuff' wasn't quite as direct an address to VD
but I made the connection from its proximity to 'Winslow' in the exchange about favorite parts of the Smile experience, the fondly remembered intimacies
intense collaboration, the whole pet name, injoke, private language thing going on between them. Besides, Winslow and Sunnydown put together sounds li
a legendary partnership, songwriters pretending to be cowboy partners in crime planning the greatest heist of all time, 'they'll never know what hit them!',
which is how I'd like to think of these two envisioning Smile.
Know more precisely what this is about?
(Sunny Down Snuff also sounds like Cocaine for that matter: like happy sniffing powder; but words have a lot of loose associations as VDP would know: the
1 of 4 10/24/2005 2:37 PM
could also be a bit of cartoon hillbilly Snuffy Smith)
Monkee Knutz Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:40 am
Vosse vamoose?
Joined: 15 Apr 2005
Posts: 395 _________________
Location: The Radish Patch Hey baby, you know there's room for 2 on my green inflatable rubber mattress.
nemo Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 5:55 pm

HONORED GUEST
jonathan anderle wrote:

Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 22 especially the old lady.
Location: USA
(again michael, don't worry 'bout that. it was years and years ago, you were on god knows what at the time, and they wouldn't have spelled her name
right anyways...)
SCHROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW

HONORED GUEST
jonathan anderle wrote:

Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 22 sherril.
Location: USA
not the most common spelling, i'll grant you. but i've seen it spelled a different way in just about every beach boys book, article, ect. that i've seen her
mentioned in. and looking at the way they mangled abe somer's name (and his firm's name for that matter) in that article, she wouldn't have stood a
chance...
Mr. Somebato at Mithel, Seel, Burneu and Nup is on line 4, jon, about your take out order.

HONORED GUEST
alovisi wrote:
Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 22 A question for Mike Vosse in particular, or anyone else who can shed light on this. Having finally seen the SMiLE DVD (hooray!) and in particular the Van
Location: USA Dyke interview with Brian, mention was made of 2 characters – ‘Sunny Down Snuff’ and ‘Winslow’.
The way I took it, ‘Sunny Down Snuff’ may have been an inside joke or pet name for Van Dyke, whilst VDP himself directly referred to Brian as 'Winslow'
towards the end of the interview segment. Beyond the direct reference to 'Sunny' in the Heroes & Villains lyric, is there any meaning or symbolism
behind the nicknames? Those guys come across as having a very intuitive relationship with each other.
Much obliged...
You'd have to ask van

but I think "sunny down snuff" or something very much like it was already in the lexicon...
And Winslow was absolutely verified by experts to be
Don Winslow
fictional coast guard hero.
guitarfool2002 Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:09 pm
nemo wrote:

Don Winslow
Joined: 18 Jul 2003 fictional coast guard hero.
Posts: 1826
This guy, for real?
2 of 4 10/24/2005 2:37 PM
_________________
We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time. - T.S. Eliot
alovisi Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:45 pm
Great stuff Mr. V - thanks for the response.
Joined: 18 Feb 2004

Posts: 53
Location: Grover's
Restaurant
Cam Mott Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 12:01 am
You know Michael, what would be cool would be a personal memoir of each session or skit you can recall; the atmosphere, the odd detail, the back and forth
Joined: 27 Aug 2003 between the musicians or Beach Boys or "posse"...you know....for posterior....for the children.
Posts: 1187
Location: Kansas
Aw, nevermind, you're probably too busy...[hands in pockets, toe stirring dust]
_________________
"It's like Siskel and Ebert, if Siskel was two cute girls" My youngest daugther
Compost Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:05 am
Cam Mott wrote:

Joined: 25 Sep 2004
Posts: 136 ...you know....for posterior....for the children.
Location: Calgary, Canada
I'm not goofing on you...but that's funny!
_________________
"Oh, no. That would be salmon and a nice beer. My life is good!"
Cam Mott wrote:
Aw, nevermind, you're probably too busy...[hands in pockets, toe stirring dust]
Joined: 18 Jul 2003

Posts: 1826
Is the Ol' foda Horse Saloon still open, Cam?
3 of 4 10/24/2005 2:37 PM
_________________
We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time. - T.S. Eliot
Cam Mott Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:42 am
If it is, I think some of the oldest part was stripped of decades of accumulation and restored recently.
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 1187 _________________
Location: Kansas "It's like Siskel and Ebert, if Siskel was two cute girls" My youngest daugther
Quote:
Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Posts: 557 And Winslow was absolutely verified by experts to be
Don Winslow
Too cool!
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nemo Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:55 pm

HONORED GUEST
cabinessence wrote:
Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 23
Quote:
Location: USA
Don Winslow
Too cool!
Um
I have no idea but it is as good as all those Winslow Homer rumours
Mr. Vosse, if I may ask, which radio stations in LA were you and Brian listening to the most in 66-67, if any? I've become a big fan of KHJ through hearing old
airchecks, and I was wondering if you tuned in to them back in the day or had any memories of them.
Joined: 18 Jul 2003 Any memories of hanging out with "The Real Don Steele", "Humble Harve", or Robert W. back in the day? There is at least one photo of Brian and Steele at
Posts: 2032 some function.
BC Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:22 pm
And Brian with Humble Harv too. Michael Vosse is in that photos series, I think.
Joined: 06 Mar 2004
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harveyw Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 5:37 pm

Very tempting cover, no?

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bicyclerider Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 5:59 pm

harveyw Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 4:52 am

Great idea. Did you get any response?

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bicyclerider Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 10:16 am

BC Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 3:19 pm

Nobody Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:09 am

Guest Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:26 am

rayray Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:31 am

Prof. Souris P.-Flogiston wrote:

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Guest Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:33 am

Prof. Souris P.-Flogiston wrote:

Mitchell Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:41 am

Oh, I'll be excited to read these later! I can't now, sadly...

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Charles LePage's Eye Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:42 am

rayray Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:44 am

Jon Hunt wrote:

Nobody Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:56 am

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Rockster Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:09 am

Nobody Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:11 am

Rockster Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:16 am

Jon Hunt wrote:

Wasn't there talk about an album full of water sounds, also?

Van Dyke Parks, 2000

Jeff Mason Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:16 am

Jon Hunt wrote:

Chris M. Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:21 am

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Chris D. Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:55 am

Nobody Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 11:04 am

All I did was a-post it!

Jeff Mason Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 11:12 am

Chris D. Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 11:14 am

Mr. Smajda Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 11:15 am

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NimrodsSon Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:03 pm

NimrodsSon Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:05 pm

JRauch Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:07 pm

Or a short REPRISE of Our Prayer?

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