Oral History Society

Belfast in the 1930's: An Oral History Project

Author(s): Ronnie Munck and Bill Rolston
Source: Oral History, Vol. 12, No. 1 (Spring, 1984), pp. 15-19
Published by: Oral History Society
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/40178787
Accessed: 22-12-2017 00:27 UTC

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 BELFAST IN THE 1930's

{Irish Times, 30.09.81). What McWade had

BELFAST IN THE 1930's: done in this letter, and subsequent interviews
AN ORAL HISTORY we held with him, was place 1932 in some kind
of context. It was not a one-off affair and many
others had been active on unemployment
PROJECT before the Communist Party came on the scene.
This was already sowing doubts in our minds
about the traditional account of 1932 as a
by Ronnie Munck unique event in Belfast's labour history.
and Bill Rolston A number of our interviews also failed to
confirm the 'romantic' view of 1932 as expressed
in the Revolutionary Workers' Groups
statement that
The motivation for the project was a desire to
'do something' to commemorate the 1932 The working class of the North is razing to
Outdoor Relief (ODR) strike on its 50th the ground the disunity barriers erected by
Anniversary. Our interest in oral history was generations of imperialist deception and
only recent and derived in large part from a intrigue. A new era is opening up in the
reading of Ronald Fraser's history of the Irish working class movement. {Irish
Spanish civil war1 which had greatly impressed Workers' Voice, 15.10.32)
us. So, with more enthusiasm than experience
or a clearly worked out research plan, we set outWhat we found in talking to participants in
to 'do an oral history' of Belfast in the 1930's these events was a much more prosaic view. For
focusing particularly on the events of 1932. George Loughrey, a Protestant transport
worker,
We did have one substantive or political
theme in mind for this research. We knew, it was only a wave of disgust at how they
largely from the Communist Party literature2 had all been treated by the Outdoor Relief
that in 1932 Protestant and Catholic people. . . They were looking for some
unemployed workers had 'crossed the sectarian extra money to keep their body and soul
divide' to take militant class action against the together. I just wanted an improvement in
state. The supposed class unity of this period the system.
was often referred to in Labour or socialist
circles as a 'golden era' we should strive to Tommy Patton, another Protestant worker
recreate. Yet, we also knew that in 1935 some of
(and later Lord Mayor of Belfast in 1982-83)
the worst sectarian riots since the creation of the was more explicit:
Northern Ireland state in 1920-22 had taken
place in Belfast. What had happened between There was only one goal: the right to work
the ODR strike in 1932 and the Jubilee riots of or enough to keep us. Catholic and
1935 which many referred to as a 'pogrom'? We Protestant unity was only to get a better
thought that perhaps we could answer this standard of living. . . A United Ireland was
question by interviewing people involved in the last thing they thought of. The strike
these events, uncovering the reasons for a shift was not organised for a political purpose.
from class consciousness to sectarianism.
This last point is important because the
As our interviews were proceeding local Communist and Republican newspapers of the
trade union official Paddy Devlin published time
his clearly saw the 1932 events as a prelude to a
account of outdoor relief in Belfast between renewed anti-imperialist campaign. At last the
1920 and 1939 which also focused on the 1932 heavy weight of Loyalist ideology was being
events.3 Extracts of the book appeared in the shed as Protestant workers realised where their
Irish Times and these elicited a letter from John 'true' class interests lay. None of our
Me Wade, a participant in the early unemployed respondents in fact supported this view of the
marches. McWade made the point that 1932 events - unity was limited to the one issue, it
was not the first move to unite Protestant and was short lived and above all it was not
Catholic unemployed workers and cited a. 'political'.
number of marches in the 1920's. He also
questioned the role allotted to Betty Sinclair From the Catholic or nationalist side we
and Tommy Geehan of the Communist Party found a similar appraisal of the 1932 events; if
(or Revolutionary Workers Groups as they from a different perspective. For most, they saw
were known then) in the 1932 events. He the unity as 'skin deep' and lasting only as long
as it
concluded that 'if history has to be written, let the marches. Even the extent of Protestant
be written accurately - from first hand sources'participation was questioned. We questioned

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 16

several people class about

away from their fellow theworkers. Hestor
the IRA had concludedguns
lending that the only wayor to do it actu
alongside the was to blow apart the newly-forged unity
Protestants of
Road. This between Catholic and
story Protestant
was consis
the IRA unemployed... By 1935,
members and the Unionist
office
Republican, Party had recovered its
Liam position in the
Mulhollan
event which working-class areas, and
sheds somewas again able to ligh
thinking influence events
during in ways that suited their
1932:
strategy. Riots returned to inner Belfast,
I was in a and before they
riot and were finished,
we 500 got c
ran back, Catholic families
and ithad was been driven fromin Wa
where we their homes,
ran intohundreds of people
a suffered
house,
of the house welcomed
gunshot wounds or injuries and thirteen us
were people were
loyalist killed. 5
people, Prot
and they welcomed us and
and helpedAs we began to delve into theway
every events after they
woman 1932 - through
came in, interviewsa and conventional
neighbou
she said: historical research
"Did - we could see hear
you many th
going problems withthat
about, this interpretation.De
Firstly, Vale
Albert Street?" She believed it. sectarian speeches by politicians could certainly
influence public opinion but they could hardly
De Valera had recently been elected to power have
incaused the 1935 riots on their own. This
view was far too conspiratorial. Secondly,
the Irish Free State and it was seriously believed
sectarianism had never really died out so that it
that he was directing the riots on the Falls Road
as a prelude to a Southern takeover. In was futile to call for the 'real' class struggle to
replace it as the Communist party did in 1935
believing the illusion this neighbour missed the
real point - that Mulholland was an IRA (and Devlin does by implication). Sectarian
member involved in working class agitation. divisions had a dynamic of their own and
sectarian struggles were as 'normal' as any
However, it reflected how far from reality the
Revolutionary Workers' Groups were whenother, so that it was pointless to call for a
they proclaimed that 'restoration' of working class unity which had
never really existed.
the Belfast relief strikers have gained an
important victory not only for themselves Class and sectarian divisions and struggles
but for the workers of all Ireland and could operate together - one did not cancel out
Britain in their struggle against British the other. In 1932 itself, trains and buses were
imperialism. (Irish Workers' Voice, attacked in various areas as they made their way
22.10.32) to an international Catholic religious festival in
Dublin. In 1933, the still strong movement
against unemployment continued but also the
The left wing Republican leadership was even first sectarian killing since 1922 occurred. In
more eloquent: 1934, the most important strike since the 1920s
which paralyzed the railways (with the help of
Orange and Green, Protestant and the IRA) was matched by renewed sectarian
Catholic together, give their lives against agitation of the Ulster Protestant League. So, in
the Imperialist exploiters who are the 1935 while socialism appeared to be on the rise
enemy alike of Labour and of Ireland. . . in Belfast, the other standard element of life in
Thus in Belfast to-day does the Irish the city, sectarianism, was daily growing in
Revolution begin. (An Phoblacht, strength. The 'romantic' account of 1932
15.10.32) needed an outside factor (manipulation) to
explain why the unity of class action was tainted
by the sectarian riots of 1935. Our account
The next point on which our own showed a much more complex trajectory of
'demystification' occured was over the 1935 class and 'religious' divisions.
riots. These were usually accounted for by
socialists as a result of a number of sectarian To conclude this section, we can say that
initiatives and declarations of Unionist existing accounts of the 1930s have, by
politicians after 1932 - 'beating the Orange concentrating on October 1932, ignored the
drum' in short.4 Paddy Devlin faithfully extent of working class agitation on issues such
reflected this image when he speaks of the as unemployment throughout the 1920s and
Prime Minister's - 1930s. Secondly, they overestimate the
importance of the actions of Unionist politicians
in the continuance of sectarian divisions in the
attempts to drive the Protestant working

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 BELFAST IN THE 1930's

working class. Thirdly,

weren't. But it never annoyed me that th
extent of working class
Paddy was kept on, we'd carried on when un
and the extent that
we were apprentices. 1935
. . Maybe I was more r
this pattern. annoyed
Our because Billyoriginal
was kept because I
'transition4 from 1932 to 1935- had thus knew that Billy couldn't work as hard as
become redefined as we broke with the me...

simplistic accounts we had started with.

The implication here is that the main iss
was competition for jobs and it did not m
Having 'reinterpreted' the 1930s we moved
whether Paddy (a Catholic) or Billy (a
on to provide a comprehensive picture of social
Protestant) had to go. He went on to say t
and economic conditions through an oral
'there were shipwright trades, the "blac
history. This section is probably not
trades, but nobody could have got in ther
significantly different from British accounts of
the 1930s so it need not detain us. Our other the "blackmen"...' The skilled trades op
a system of exclusiveness which had nothi
major aim was to provide a portrait of certain
do with religion. This fits in with recent
key 'actors' of this period - shipyard workers,
mill workers, socialists, communists and academic analysis which maintains that
sectarianism of the 'Islandmen', as the s
republicans. We had originally sought to
workers were known, was mainly a produ
include a portrayal of 'loyalist politics' but were
workplace exclusivism based on the defenc
unable to find anyone who belonged to the
skilled workers' privileges.6
Ulster Protestant League or a similar grouping
in spite of considerable efforts. It would seem
that either these groups were smaller than we Our research in the 1930s does not however
imagined or that people were reluctant to speak support this interpretation and there is
of a practice - sectarianism - which they now considerable evidence of religious sectarianism.
regard as being officially frowned upon. It also Firstly, membership of the Orange Order (an
would confirm the view that who does the oral
explicitly anti-Catholic organisation) was the
history partially determines the end product, surest way of getting a job in the yard. John
and our own politics is undoubtedly reflected in
Nicholl says:
the choice of respondents, the questions we
considered relevant and the organisation of the
interview material. Having said that, we will I'd become fairly aware of it [i.e.
briefly comment on some of the material sectarianism] in the sense that, all around
gathered with an emphasis on the complexity of me, there were people getting work... A
ideology and its contradictions. As in our more fellow who was connected with the
historical work we found here too that we were
Orange Order would have had a ten times
originally operating with rather simplified better chance of getting a job than I had.
schemes. We will focus on the related issues of
sectarianism and the national question even
though our material of course has a broader Alice Quinn, a mill worker, recalled how
scope. Our research was much wider ranging'they were nearly all Protestants, the foremen in
but these issues help bring out the particularity
the mill then. . . A Catholic never got an
of Northern Irish labour history. overman's job, even in Jennymount'. Secondly,
although no one we spoke to had engaged in
active sectarianism (everyone's 'best friend was
One of the major obstacles to trade union a Catholic'), nevertheless sectarian attitudes
organisation in Belfast in the 19th Century was
came through clearly. Bobby Hurndall tells
sectarianism in the workplace. A common that-
image is that of the 'labour aristocracy' in the
shipyard who actively worked against the
employment of Catholics there. In the linen When I was in the shipyard the question of
mills too, religious sectarianism was always Catholic-Protestant didn't loom very
considered the main obstacle to effective trade
large ; as far as the shipyard was concerned
union organisation. One Protestant shipyard there were a number of Catholics worked
worker, John Hyde, told us - there - some of them were well
appreciated - but they were strictly in the
minority. . . I wasn't aware of any
You see, people say if you were a Roman antagonism. At one stage when there was
Catholic you had no hope in the yard, but periodic trouble - then everybody reacted
this was not so: men served their time with and certain people were warned to stay
me were Roman Catholics. There were out. . . They were warned away probably
pay-offs when I was paid oft and they for their own safety.

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 J8

Questioned McGlade on said the

that - mass expu
shipyard in 1935, many said t
would have been
in the 1930's you'advised'
weren't too much to
friends in case the
concerned 'hard
with political issues... themen'
vast
This passive form of at
majority of Republicans sectarian
that time, they
a context within which the virulent sectarianism just wanted England out of Ireland. It was
could operate. Our analysis led us to question a simple thing. They believed that our
the stereotype of the 'Islandmen' and we social and economic ills flowed from the
understood rather better the complexity of English occupation of this country. . .
consciousness.
There was some kind of a self-criticism after
the 1932 strike and Jack Brady recalls how 'it
The socialists we spoke to were mainly was debated with hindsight that the IRA missed
members of the I.L.P. and the Northern Ireland the boat'. Liam Mulholland, who had been
Socialist Party. As in Britain, there was intenseinvolved in the unemployed workers' action,
activity over the Spanish Civil Waf , there wassays
a that afterwards 'we participated in various
Clarion Cycling Club and the National Council
trade union disputes' and described the intense
of Labour Colleges had a branch here. On the
IRA activity in 1933 at the request of the largely
socialist attitude towards the division of IrelandProtestant railworkers. He adds that during the
through partition we received very different 1930's 'they [i.e. Republicans] were moving
responses. Jack McGougan said, 'I look upon towards socialism and you got the feeling that
Republicanism and Socialism as two joint aims'. nationalism, pure nationalism of the romantic
Fred McMahon said that most socialists 'had type [was not enough]'. The overall verdict of
leanings towards a united Ireland'. Frank Peadar O'Donnel, who was part of a left wing
Hughes had a quite different view: faction in the Republican movement during the
1930s, was that 'We haven't a batallion of IRA
I naturally was against the whole men in Belfast; we just have a batallion of
Republican movement. My contentionarmed Catholics'.8 This statement, apart from
was that we could better serve the people, the minor point that there were in fact some
number one, if they all became trade Protestant Republicans, seriously neglects the
unionists, and number two, if we had men transformation in Republican thinking during
being trained to look after the people the 1930's. Secondly, that the IRA in Belfast
generally, that is MP's. played the role of a Catholic defence force (as in
1935) was the result of historical circumstances
Here again, we have an academic and not because of choice.
interpretation which says that the trouble with
the Northern Ireland labour movement was
Finally, we can point to several issues we
simply that it was reformist, not that it refused learnt in the course of this research. Though
to tackle the national question.7 McGougan there are arguments for a 'naive' approach to
however speaks ironically of how 'we had the interviewing, we lost valuable opportunities to
pure milk socialism' and that 'there was pursue matters of interest because we had not
freedom of conscience on the constitutional
prepared ourselves well enough on the period
question, in other words, the party walked a or social sector concerned. We found ourselves
tightrope and people had their own views on the rejecting the 'holy script' approach to oral data
ending of partition'. This however would only and instead used it as just one source in a
lead to indecision and inconsistency, when a multifaceted research project. The greatest
socialist party did not or could not define a clearvalue to us was not its contribution to historical
attitude towards such a major issue as the 'facts', but what it told us about the perceptions
division of the country. The objective basis for and feelings of people in the 1930s. It helped us
this of course was a desire not to alienate the
break with the somewhat simplified existing
majority of the working class (i.e. accounts of the 1930s and perceive the real
Protestants/Unionist) to whom they looked forcomplexity of consciousness and its multiple
support. contradictions. As with other oral history
projects, we found a certain difficulty in
Republicanism had the opposite problem of integrating the 'personal' and the 'political', the
defining a clear attitude towards social and broad movements of history and individual
economic issues. The IRA did not intervene as memories. In a sense though most of our
an organisation in the ODR strike although
respondents were intensely 'political' so this
some of its members did participate. The reason problem was surmountable, although those
for that was a belief that 'bread and butter' who were still involved in party politics or were
issues were irrelevant or even a diversion from trade union officials tended to produce a rather
the overriding national question. Charlie hackneyed account of the period. How directly

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 ORAL HISTORY IN SCHOOLS 19

social and contemporary GREATER LONDON a process ora

is, was brought home to us
THE LIVESEY MUSEUM, when
682, Old Kent a mill
husband interceded Road, SE15to1 J is prevent an ofinter
part of the London Borough
because he had been Southwark andunemployed
is gaining a wide reputation for in t
and was still ashamed that his wife had been at its educational activities. Special exhibitions for
work. As a last point, we should mention that as school parties have focussed on Education
a result of this project we are moving on to set (Autumn 1982), The Triumph of Labour
up an Oral History Archive of the (Summer 1983) and The Music Hall (Winter
contemporary 'troubles' which would have to 1983). Curators Janet Vitmayer and Nell
be a collective effort to be successful. A veryMaynard have included interview material in
political oral history is gradually becoming each exhibition and the growing collection of
established in Northern Ireland to complementtapes is being deposited in the London Borough
its previous use by folklorists. ofSouthwark History Library. Children, after
visiting the exhibitons, are encouraged to
NOTE: This is a brief report based on material pursue the themes at home and school and some
to appear in book form in 1984 (to be published retired Music Hall artists are being invited to
by Brandon Books). We wish to acknowledge participate in person when school parties are
the financial assistance of the Ulster Polytechnic visiting.
and the Nuffield Foundation which allowed us
to engage a research assistant, Gerry Moore.
VAUXH ALL MANOR SCHOOL
FOOTNOTES Motherland, directed by Elyse Dodgson, who
spoke about the project at the Oral History in
1 Ronald Fraser, Blood of Spain - The Experience of Civil
Schools Conference in June, is now available as
War 1936-1939, Penguin, Harmondsworth, 1981
a video from ILEA Learning Resources
Branch,
2 See Communist Party of Ireland, Outline History, New Television Centre, Thackeray Road,
Books Publication, Dublin 1971. London SW8 3BT. The script is compiled from
3 Paddy Devlin, Yes We Have No Bananas - Outdoor oral testimony of 23 West Indian women who
came to
Relief in Belfast. 1920-39, Blackstuff Press, Belfast Britain in the 1950s. The history
1981.
department at Vauxhall Manor School, where
4 See Michael Farrell, Northern Ireland: The Orange State. originated, has also now begun to
Motherland
Pluto Press, London 1976. Ch t.
incorporate the documentary and visual
5 Devlin, p. 142-3. evidence into their third year course entitled
People on the Move.
6 See Alastair Reed, 'Skilled Workers in the Shipbuilding
Industry 1880-1920: a Labour Aristocracy?', in A.
Morgan and B. Purdie (eds) Ireland: Divided Nation
TELEVISION HISTORY WORKSHOP
Divided Class, Ink Links, London 1980.
Making Cars - A History of Car making in
7 See Dave Byrne 'The Deindustrialization of Cowley
Northernby the people who make cars. A
Ireland', Ulster Polytechnic, mimeo, 1979, p travelling
31. exhibition is now available for
schools, teachers' centres and libraries, using
8 See Bob Purdie, 'Reconsiderations on Republicanism
material
and Socialism', in Morgan and Purdie (eds) for collected in the making of the Channel
support of
this negative assessment. 4 series. It is very suitable for pupils studying
Social and Economic History and those on pre-
vocational training courses.
Enquiries to: Television History Centre, 42,
ORAL HISTORY Queen Square, London W.C.I.

IN SCHOOLS HEATHBROOK PRIMARY SCHOOL,

London SW8
Teacher Jill Burgess has included oral history
AVON into the school guidelines for history and social
MANOR SCHOOL, COALPIT HEATH, studies as the result of attending a day
BRISTOL conference at the History and Social Sciences
With the help of Elaine Eastman from SCIP Centre. She lists possible initial
Teachers
(Schools Community Involvement Project), 11 families, neighbours, school's
contacts as:
and 12 year old Juniors set off for their
harvest parcel list, and people professionally
Christmas holiday armed with a list of twenty
involved with the elderly and the church, and
questions about the area in the past. They hope
suggests her staff should go on to use the
evidence
very much to disprove a statement found collected for stimulating investigagion
in one
booklist that stated, 'Coalpit Heath ofis other
an kinds of evidence , making comparisons
insignificant little hamlet hardly worth a
between past and present and as a basis for
mention'. drama.

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