welcome to the aquarium ax audio show

with Russ and Kelly we provide

information on all kinds of aquarium
related topics episode 152 recorded
February 23rd 2013 readings aquarium
extras we have a special show for you
today we have an interview with Diana
well stead noted aquarium author author
of ecology of the planted aquarium which
is now in a third edition so welcome
Diana I'm glad to be here of you on the
show well I do want to start out with
the first question and this is something
we like to ask all of our interviewees
because it's always interesting to us
and to our listeners to hear how
everybody started in the hobby so tell
us a little bit about how you first
started out with aquariums that's a
great question
it was as a child I must have been 8 or
10 my mom had a fish pond I started
keeping live bearers I think I started
out maybe with mosquito fish which I
used to catch in the canals and this was
in California and I had a little 2
gallon bowl and kept swordtails mollies
and and Guppies at one time or another
I remember being absolutely fascinated
when they gave birth and all those
little sword tale babies bright red they
were so cute and then when the black
mollies had babies the little black
babies a favorite favorite adorable I
just couldn't get enough that is a neat
experience I started out with libraries
as well and I remember the same
fascination with the little babies so
the morning I was I was yelling at the
top of my lungs with the little I
remember watching them pop out of the
mother it was I was just absolutely
entranced pretty magical magical is
right so did you keep on with aquariums
up to now more or less or there were
some interruptions when I was in college
but I kept coming back to them at one
time
these Guppies that I had they had a
horrible disease that I couldn't get rid
of and I remember being out of the hobby
for many years because of that and then
I started back up in 1987 with the the
planted tanks but I've had tanks off and
on all of my life and I guess this is a
good lead into our next question what
led you to develop your method or what
is widely known as the wall stead method
well I'll go back to my childhood here I
live next to a dairy farm and they had a
big stock tank in the yard with the cows
and it was filled with ballast an area
this dock tank you know was big hundred
gallon tank was out in full Sun the
substrate was probably manure from the
cows the cows cow but the the plants in
there the valeton area it was like a
forest they were bright green emerald
green
there was no algae in there they were
growing like crazy it was just a
beautiful sight out in the middle of
this feedlot so that kind of gave me you
know something that I always return to
when I was having trouble growing plants
later on as an aquarium hobbyist for a
long time I tried to grow plants an
aquarium and I did what everybody
recommended you know put gravel in and
get your plants and I failed all the
time it just never worked and so when I
got back into the hobby in 1987 this was
after my sister died and needed
something to divert my attention to I
decided that I would just do something
really different and I kept that idea of
the stock tank with the beautiful growth
of Allison area in my mind and I thought
well none of the aquarium methods have
worked why don't I just do what I would
I knew
but what I had seen before so I set up a
20-gallon in front of the window with
sunlight and then I just put swirl in
the bottom and I couldn't believe that
the plants just grew like crazy
I'd never seen plants grow like that in
an aquarium and that's kind of how it
all started
oh so in this first attempt of the
method you didn't have any gravel over
the soil or anything yes yes I did have
gravel over the soil okay yeah yes
absolutely
okay and it's very cool
so everything came from and it's pretty
amazing that the first attempt at the
method worked right off I got lucky it
was like night and day
from what I had remembered in my earlier
failures it was you know once you see
plants really growing it was it was just
spectacular yeah cool so that was it and
it was just a game changer yeah I can
imagine yeah that's the fascinating
story that the method was inspired by it
as the stock I'd never heard about it
yes you're the first one to hear this
see we've got the exclusive scoop have
you heard yeah yeah Wow
so that leads us to our next one too
doesn't yeah tell us how the wall stead
method compares with the high light co2
injection planted aquarium all right
well it's just such a big difference I
mean I'm working with Mother Nature
where is those methods they're very
expensive to set up they're hard to
maintain they require a lot of work
because you're not you're working kind
of working against mother nature you're
removing nutrients with a whole bunch of
water changes and excessive filtration
and then because there aren't any
nutrients there you have to put them all
back using gadgets artificial
fertilization co2 injection and my
method it
the nutrients in the tank and let's the
plants have them and that keeps the the
fish healthy and it's just a completely
different method and very cool you could
almost call it the organic aquarium a
very good term
thank you yes that's it it's the organic
aquarium you know I mean the soil is a
tremendous supply of carbon dioxide and
so you know instead of injecting it in
with a tank and an injector that you put
soil in there and the decomposition and
the soil produces the co2 I mean it
converted the soil can produce a lot of
co2 meat and it can produce it for a
long long period Kenta yes especially in
the beginning it the first six months to
a year it will produce a lot and you'll
see really robust growth plant growth
during that time but as the you know the
years go on a lot of the organic matter
has been decomposed and that plant
growth will slow down and I'll get one
place the soil no I don't know I just
leave it in there okay per year I've got
tanks that are ten you know five ten
years old Wow so they they work just
fine they've just slowed down in terms
of the growth rate yeah what happens as
the tank evolves is that the plants that
are more robust and are more able to get
the co2 they will predominate in the
tank so you'll get some of the species
that do well in the beginning especially
the RO Talia the red plants and LED
ouija a lot of the stem plants they just
can't compete with an Amazon sword plant
or a cryptic irani and getting carbon
dioxide from the water so they will tend
to go and what you end up with is the
more robust species that are better able
to get the co2 that's there
okay that makes sense so it's kind of
its kind of a plant succession right
that's just thinking along the lines of
a natural system like you were saying it
follows the same pattern of nature you
would find yeah while like in a pond for
example and as we're going back to the
organic idea which I like there are
probably a lot of parallels we could
draw there perhaps I will give a plug
for the high tech tanks in that if you
want to keep a lot of plant species
especially the difficult ones and the
stem plants the carpet plants then
that's the way to go because with the
high tech tank you're you're providing
enough co2 that you can keep all these
plants that aren't so good at getting it
and you can have a wider variety of
plants so the people that do aquascaping
where you see all those different plant
species that are rather difficult to
grow when they're faced to compete with
the more Road by species you just have
more variety of plants in a high-tech
tank okay
so another way to say that might be that
the the wall said method is not another
way to get the same results as a
high-tech tank it's it's a different
approach for a different result yes I
would agree with that okay so it might
be possible to to start out with a wall
stead tank and then as the co2 levels
are depleted from the soil to start
supplementing co2 in the tank and and
keep some of those other plants and
essentially turn the tank into a
high-tech tank yes that's perfectly
possible okay yeah I think they co2
injection is the key and I've done co2
injection I've done some low tech tanks
and I think I may have mentioned to you
before I did a shrimp bowl based on your
article okay a really small one I was
experimenting with a half gallon which I
know is not the same size as the ones
that you did but it worked quite well
that's great in the kitchen oh yes in
the kitchen one only one shrimp because
it was so small but it seemed to
to do all the things you talked about I
saw a succession in terms of micro
creatures in their little seed shrimp
and so on oh that's an easy way to get
into the Hobby a little shrimp tank
right right I loved that article I
thought that was great
oh I'm so glad and one of our listeners
in fact he read it and posted the link
up on our or asked us to post the link
up on our site and we've done that as
well link tear your page that has that
oh that's great you know there are a lot
of fun I mean in a hardly cost a dime
right right every cheap and I had some
of the soil that you recommended on hand
for our garden it was the exact same
brandon very convenient yeah so it
really didn't cost anything I pulled
some Pelle out of another tank and I
shrimp out of another tank and voila
no that's great that's wonderful so one
one thing I think it fascinates a lot of
our listeners
I know Tony would love this question
because he's wondered about this and
many others is the role of water changes
in filtration in a while stead tank I
don't think they're very important the
water changes I don't see really a point
in it that much because the plants are
pulling nutrients and salts out of the
water rather than doing it via water
change so if you've got robust plant
growth the plants are taking up the
excess nutrients and the toxins and the
excess salts and when you prune the
plant you're in essence removing those
nutrients from the water so I don't I'm
not big on water changes I mean I I do
that little bit now I'd like to remove
the surface scum every um I would say
every month I'll remove about 10% of the
water just to get off that surface scum
okay and that scum have to have a lot of
proteins and lipids in it so that's that
makes sense that you'd be another
of nutrient export along with removing
the plant mass with the prune
I like to hear you talk about lipids
very good that's wonderful yeah a lot of
the nutrients are on the surface and the
reason I really have become obsessed
about keeping a scum off is that the
micro bacteria that cause the fish TB
right they they tend to collect at the
surface so I like to get that surface
scum off the terrace other since I read
about that in your other article about
Michael bacterio so said enough yeah
been very careful with the the surface
come to this right the the micro
bacteria they gravitate towards those
lipids that split on the surface and
it's just a good way of keeping the
micro bacterial population down by
getting rid of that scum and it so and
then the filtration that's also not very
essential i just mainly keep it to
circulate the water but I keep submerged
filters in my big tanks but the little
ones don't have any filtration the water
should circulate in some way that way
you you know distribute heat oxygen
whatever in the in the water through it
so I keep filters in the tanks but
they're really not it's mainly to
circulate the water keep the water
circulating so what types of filters do
you usually use I use the internal
filters I like the the quick filter it's
a little cylinder that has that you can
put in padding that's very has small
pores in it and I just reuse that
padding over and over again sometimes I
haven't used any filters I've just had a
pump to circulate water and that works
okay and I have two little shrimp tanks
that they're both 2 gallons I don't even
have filters in those I just have air
bubbles gently bubbling to circulate the
water so I would say minimal filtration
I think this kind of
sounds like the holy grail of fish
keeping everybody always wants to I
don't want to do water changes I wanted
to worry about filter so this sounds
awesome well it is it's pretty cool yeah
it's fascinating way to two approaches
well they I couldn't like the filters
now that I have because those pads that
I have in them they get clogged up with
gunk which is its back it's basically
bacterial growth and the bacterial
growth reflects the nutrients they take
up nutrients from the water just like
the plants as they grow so I like to
keep the filters pretty you know every
month I'll remove that padding and
squeeze out all the gunk and that in a
way removes nutrients from the tank as
well they're at least three methods of
nutrient export exactly okay exactly
without doing water changes yeah
good well you mentioned the shrimp tanks
can you tell us about plants and other
animals that are particularly suited to
the well fed method yes
well the fish that I like for the big
tanks are the Rainbows I would if
there's some fish I would avoid the main
problem I see is that people buying fish
that aren't growing that are going to
get too big for the tank like Oscar's
goldfish Erewhon --is plecostomus
they're all going to get you know really
huge and goldfish dig up plants the
malawi cichlids they if they don't kill
each other they'll dig up the plants I
mean they're just a lot of problems with
those fish and you know I feel that
there's so many nice fish
you know Grammys angelfish all the you
know there's so many nice fish why waste
time on fish that are going to create
problems
everybody has their own preferences on
that but it makes sense that especially
in a nicely planted tank you don't want
big aggressive fish that are going to
rip it I am roll all of it yeah yeah so
what you found that angelfish do well
and I know lost that tank then actually
I haven't kept any angelfish and they
were fine I mean there's no reason why
they wouldn't
I've also correspond with people that
keep discus and they in one of you know
the natural tank and they do fine
there's no I don't see any reason why it
wouldn't work yeah it makes sensitive if
discus are doing well in it better
angelfish well yeah yeah I can't I don't
see any reason why mmm you know I
wouldn't keep something like a darter
these are native fish that really need
oxygen native water kind of the river
fish right that really I basically like
to keep lake fish there's less water
movement they've adjusted to you know
probably a little higher co2 level and
less oxygen than say some of these very
rare plecostomus that you find in
fast-moving streams you know I've tried
that and and they don't do very well
right that make sense yeah I would keep
lake type fish not not River fish that
are used to you know lots of oxygen and
a lot of high turnover and movement yes
exactly
I'm just really not fair to the fish
right yeah that makes a lot of sense
your favor some of your favorite so then
a rainbow fish yes I just like them I
don't have ideal deal with babies and
they're beautiful and they worked very
nice in a 50 gallon tank right we had a
school of neon rainbows in in our 55
uh-huh
small we actually started with a
breeding trio and they ended up giving
us about 16 babies oh those grew up and
we had a nice school in there but then
we had problems with mycobacteria says
which is how you found her
which is how I found your article oh
really well actually we have everything
under control but more or less in that
tank we haven't had issues with that for
a long time but we only have one of
those rainbows left okay yes but well
they're very susceptible to micro
bacteria right all right that's that's
what I found out in your article so I
found you one of your solutions was the
the UV oh yeah UV sterilizers yeah I
would definitely recommend that the
filters that I have I don't have the UV
hooked up right now but in the past
these were the little Submariner filters
with the UV sterilizer in them okay
yeah I was going to ask you about that
at one point which which brand you use
so that makes sense yeah there are
internal filters that have a UV light
inside they're very nice
they're very nice filters friendly with
it even without the UV light I'll have
to look into them because I don't want
to have any more output get you one for
your birthday yeah they're about $70 but
when you're talking you know these
people that get valuable fish like
discus or you don't even the rainbows
they can be fairly expensive I would I
would invest in a UV filter if really
it's a huge help because it just kills
all the bacteria in the water so that
the fish they just have a much better
chance not just against Michael bacteria
but all other fish diseases right
instead of pathogen in the water
basically yes okay well I'm sure that
many of our listeners would like a lot
more information about the method as
would we beyond what we can cover in our
podcast so could you tell us a little
bit about what they can expect to find
if they get a copy of your book well a
whole lot of information that's probably
more than most people want to see it has
a lot of you know I distilled
information from hundreds of
scientific papers and help plants take
up nutrients from the water how they
prefer ammonia over nitrates so you can
use plants instead of filtration to
remove ammonia it talks about how if
you're using a soil substrate how the
first six weeks there will may be
potential problems that you need to
address
whereas afterwards the soil settles down
so and my book shows the chaos and
describes it in the soil that is freshly
submerged I talked about algae control
ways to fight algae growth there's many
different methods why having a soil
substrate will help with algae control
see how plants take up nutrients how
fish food provides nutrients for plants
and how fish food provides all nutrients
for plants the table of contents oh the
aerial advantage why plants that come
above the water surface why they are so
they grow so much faster when they have
access to air hmm
it mainly it's because they get their
co2 from co2 from the air which just
makes them grow much much much faster
than submerge plants and that ties in
with with all the efforts now to
encourage wetland plants that's because
they grow four to five times faster than
submerged plants and my last chapter is
on you know how my method how its set up
and the big discovery I had in the last
few years is that is a siesta method
that that is is that I turned the lights
off for hours during the noon to 4:00 a
4:00 p.m. and that's that's kind of the
latest thing which is really working
nice
I did some co2 measurements which it's
in my book but it shows that the plants
take up all the co2 by say 11 a.m. in
the morning so if you leave the lights
on all day the plants have a lot of
light but they don't have any carbon
dioxide so I turn if you turn the lights
off for four hours in the midday I
showed and it's in the book that during
that time the co2 regenerates because
you have this bacterial metabolism
that's producing co2 during that time so
then when you turn the lights on at 4
p.m. the plants now they have co2 and
light so they can take off they can grow
yeah so that's in my let that's in the
latest 3rd edition and some of the later
printings it's safe electricity it keeps
the tank from overheating it's better
for plants it probably helps with algae
control because during those four hours
from noon to 4 p.m. there's very little
co2 in the tank but there's lots of
light if you have the lights on and
algae is much more adept at getting
carbon dioxide than plants so during
that time your favorite you're actually
favoring algae growth that doesn't make
you yeah does that makes sense yeah does
yeah it does and I've heard of people
refer to a blackout period for algae
control but I the way you explain it is
this yes to method makes makes a lot of
sense this is a cooler name it is about
this yesterday it also makes sense that
it it's directly benefiting the plant so
it's giving a disadvantage to the algae
but it's also helping the plants
out-compete them so yes your explanation
is the best I've ever heard
great and then my book goes into plants
as water purifiers and it shows how they
take up heavy metals how they take up
ammonia and I have the scientific
studies to back it up
talks about nitrite toxicity and I have
a chapter on a low pathway which is kind
of cool this is where plants secrete or
they release chemicals into the water
that inhibit algae and they there's
credible warfare between plants where
they're trying to gain supremacy so they
produce these Olelo chemicals it's a
little bit advanced and it's not too
well proven so I won't belabor that
point but it's an interesting concept of
how plants they kind of fight they can't
run and hide from their from predators
so what they do is they produce
chemicals that will keep them from being
eaten and those chemicals are released
into the water and they interact with
algae and invertebrates and whatnot so
it's just an interesting concept very
interesting I read something about that
with for example I think its horn words
so at a phylum that does that has been
said to release some of those allele Oh
chemicals yeah it's it's a kind of a
general phenomenon of all plants like
the the big examples are black walnuts
and eucalyptus they release so many
chemicals that it's very hard for plants
to grow nearby them they poison their
competitors that's what it is
but in an aquarium you have you have
this closed system where the water you
know it's not like a river where you're
getting you know fresh water all the
time so you have this closed system and
the plants are releasing these chemicals
into the water and you'll just get some
interesting interactions that may be
hard to explain I mean some plants may
not grow well because they're being
inhibited by other plants in the tank
right it sounds like very similar to
what happens in a reef tank with a war
warfare chemical warfare that occurs
among corals yeah
I've heard that can be very dramatic you
know be the next Pixar movie well we'd
like to get your a link to your books
website on our our website for the
podcast page but we also if it's a
website that you'd like to just share
with us right now - you could just tell
us and our listeners could maybe go
there as they're listening okay well um
see probably the easiest way to get to
my website is just to type in D wolf
dead calm okay I have a blog there now
it's for all of my writings but the one
for the aquarium's you can get to the
aquarium website via that general
website the reason I would suggest
people go there is that there's the
article on shrimp keeping the little
shrimp tanks and then there's the other
one on mycobacteria it's easier to go to
D walls did dot-com that's fine they can
do that and they can find it from there
right right yeah I'll put the long one
up on our website okay thank you
no worries okay I'm just for one last
question and we know you probably talked
about this in your book too but tell us
just a little bit about how to best
achieve the balance between artificial
and natural light in the wall side
method oh that's a great question do I
I would downplay the natural light a
little bit I mean if you have it use it
because it's free but I use mainly
artificial light now I mean my tanks on
your windows but so what no you know in
the past I wrote about putting windows
in my home in order to accommodate my
tanks and I'm no longer doing that it's
in a kind of expensive yeah I know I
think artificial lighting will work just
fine I mean if you have you know window
light that's that's fine but I don't
think there's any point in trying to
belabor the point
okay okay okay that's that's great yeah
you have any other questions well I I
probably have about 100 but I know we're
running out of time so thank you for for
coming this has been fascinating yeah
we've enjoyed it a lot and I have to say
I've really enjoyed talking to you
because you seem like just a really
sweet gentle kind person and I like you
well Kelly I thank you very much I
really enjoyed this interview on so
sound like you're trying a nice job of
furthering the hobby I think that's
great thank you yeah maybe someday we
could have you come back on the show and
do one about microbacteria says Oh
that'd be good oh that would be good I'm
I'm writing an article about
tuberculosis in humans right now so I'll
have plenty of plenty to talk about yeah
I found it I am sad about the fact that
I've had to deal with it in my tanks at
some points but I'm I'm really grateful
for the information that I found that
you've provided you said that you the
best information I found has been
information that you have put out there
so thank you I'm hope yeah I think it
was important and that's why I wrote it
because I think a lot of hobbyists get
turned off because when their fish start
dying right and you know it's a big
problem in the hobby when you know
people buy their first fish and it's
sick and dying
so that's article was to address that
problem exactly very good Thank You
Diana for joining us we're really
grateful that to you accommodated us for
this interview it was wonderful it was a
great one it was my pleasure thank you
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