History as Project: An Interview with Manfredo Tafuri TS peed Pere ean bee i astra etry Passerin: Could you bean by talking about the factors that contebuted to your itllctual formation? Tafur: Wel, my family ofcourse. There vas my Jewish mother and ny Catholic father. We lived in Rome, where Iwas born. My father had Mason tendencies, but also a layman's mentality disinterested, so to speak. Two very different personalities. My mater was very active, with Some pretensions to intellectual Iie. My father was just the oposite, He was an engineer employed the Ministero del Lavor Pubblici, with no Intellectual interests. would say that ny earliest intellectual stimull were maternal but at avery, very elementary level, For example, when {was Intyoduced to music and fll ia lve with Bach, my mother asked, "What ate you listening to? Piano exercises?” It really have a proper aude My mother's name was Trev They were a Jewish family from Ancona, but my mather had always lived in Teramo, Her father was a textile ‘merchant. My granmother tried to teach me to read Hebrew, but ! was somewhat reluctant. There were frequent conflicts between my grand ‘other and my mother because they both ha the same strong personality. I was very curious aboct thie relationship, but a the same time was very attached to my mother and always tok her side ina ee ‘But there wasa turing plnt. External influences have always been a powerful factor in my lf, and ‘hese started during my high school years. In my fist or second year of high choo, I started listening avy to the cultural program on the radlo. And, atthe same time, Thappened to atend a series of lectures by Enzo Paci on what was at that time generically called “exlstetialsm” because the material ranged from Klerkegaard to Sartre Twas rght there, Yes! [remember a summer spent atthe beach in Forte dei Marmi. I must have been n. Something explodes, I began to buy a huge quant of boks by Camus and Sartre in Italian. remember that these were published in the Rossa ¢ verde series by Belioteca Moderna Mondador (BMIND. In the meantime, also became interested i chitectre thanks to Paolo Ceecarll There were three af us ‘ha formed a group at Forte del Marml that year: three teenagers with pretensions to intellectual pursuits ‘The group was composed af myself sixteen years oe Paolo Leon the economist nd Ceccareli forme dean atthe architecture schel in Venice, who now chars the architecture faculty in Ferrara. The three of us would pester Carlo Carr, who used to stn the cafes, asking imal sorts of things. Sine beth Leon and Ceccareli were older than ayselt they became In effect my mentors. Ceecarll brought Bruno Zei's newly published Storia del’architettura moderna wih him tothe beach that summer The book tired out to be fundamental, since T consider thismoment to have been ver Important for my intellectual development. But, we must go back a bit further, ecause very early on, I vas fascinated by thought, and therefore the fistory of thoveht, philosophy whatever I could understand oft at the time, But {understood enough. ‘was especially intrigued by philosophies posited knowledge, rather than research methods ~ knowledge InStet tlre cnmprar at aor rene remand Fr - - ¢- | Jin the old German Academy. 1 believe it was called Villa Massimo. Qn the other hand, this location in itself had Pe SSE SS SEES mi coe situation ~ the bipolaity of father/nether, and the Jewish component coming from my grandmother rather than my tereinc 8 Jone rather Dik easy 21994 ee ALthat tne the problem was exo. athame anywhere Tes at by chance that een tidy LHeep | “taeanachicoamiparnits | vacating teen Re and Veni. anal on verti, yet needa strong es of rs, Perapsth—| a3 ? ‘explains my tendency toward history, which is rooted and uprocted by those who write I | 7 Asana meteor Beto Naas Ropes, Butbackto infuences. First therewas at and then there was paticular kindof architecture thatwasbult | pate nme Sk Drecsly where al te destruction ad occured near my home. twas something | culd'tundestand sorething yg toate Pan ein Riese that shmltaneausy fascinated and repel me tas condominium projet desaned in 1951 by Maro idol, | mn aenemmen sb lis arti infunced by neoreali erature and cinematography Its truly a dsrace forthe upper middle | Aen etn casts danse delet leat erect ws vlog yang empl —_ Leona wre en scanned sneer Maes wor aru a, hai, an he ‘planters, which are sill there. This expressionist production was shocking to me, because I felt very solated, alienated — which explains my affinity E foresee apace eri tas rash ses peste Tee west pinad sr nti “tiie nm ec sits one Tard a hin, Thad ete wna oon, po T De SS SS SS‘mother also had a miscarriage. I was the only child wo survived. So there was slitude in my family, and aso isolation onthe outside, because mine was a terrible generation of total ignorance. It was extremely «tfc to communicate with professors, because even if tha istene te you, they abways regarded you asan adolescent. This explains in some way my pervasive sense of solitude, Very often, now that hik abut I thishas ben on my ming saw a new Italian edition of Heidegger's Being and Time translated by Pietro Chad. | houaht the book, and tht same summer started to read Heldeeger What could I understand? I understood the ats phere. [understood some other things, too, but It was mainly the atmosphere that struck meso force Then to remember certain ines and moved me to clarity ther, atthe university, Outside influences, here again, were actslly mare important. hada very heterogeneous education, with only one strong influence: important, because he was a socialist. Since my family was, L would sy, lower middle to mile cass, Widmar’s Marxist ideas didnt appeal tome, He would pick up our manual, Lamanna, and explain that It would bea god idea to throw it away. Then he woud start the cass. Widmar started teaching late inthe semester, perhaps asa substitute, He was young He conducted his classes inthe garden. He taught us Kant to Mars to American praginatism asf it were a single trajectory, in away that no one with any sense woul ever forget. Widmar's Marx was nata revolutionary Marx in the tit sense. Hiswas the Mars that you ind in the Hegelianism that runs from Kant othe French Revolution. This impressed me, but ran counter to my devotion a so-called existentialism —which [was notable to understand deeply enough anyway, because I viewed i asa “French? mode at thinking (Hence I could simultaneously be both fascinated and esgusted by Sartre) ‘Another influence on my thinking atthe time was Enzo Pacl, who insisted on the trajectory of Hussr| and onthe other hand, the trajectory of Heidegger. had started to rea the very few ofthese texts that were avalable a tanslation; fread Pacis introductions to the texts in translation ‘was about seventeen when started to buy and read his work ‘Some months age, when I realize I had very few day left to spend on earth, [reflected on this particular moment in my past. The summer | earned my high sche! diploma I was seventeen having started elementary schoo! ative, despite the racial discrimination. Tat summer I Joined my parents in Flugal wher they were staying. They were older, whichis crucial. Mi father was at least fty-six or Rify-seven years olé when I was born, iF and my mather was more than fry Bruno Widmar. Wid later taught the history of philosophy at the Univesity of Barl and directed the philosophy jaural I Protagora. Ne was very o®. Pasi Were youn ony i? hel Tafur: had two brothers, both of whom died of children’ diseases for which there were no cures. My {remember July of1953. In the plaza in Corso Teste, there was avery tiny bookstore where I ist fully remember ying under a re, and instead of reading the Elagles ar the Buclics, | read Heidegger fed to explain I tomy friend, Itwas probably very funny, but It helped... because i forced me “Tafur: Wel afterall, hese are intellectual choices. I was suffering lke the dammed because Thad wo possi jes, On the one hand, Iwas quite fascinated by Freud and psychoanalysis, but I thought I would have to study medicine. tried this, but then realized tha he fundamental point for re was the intersection a history, philosophy, and the history af art, This was my objective. Then, a one point, I discovered architecture through hemges goo yp iy ON YEE EBCceccarell and my earlier reading of Ze's Storia delarchitetura moderna. {wes passionate about at, especially painting, and eventhough I understood both Titian and Picasso, I tl couldn't understand how to read a building. {just couldnt get it. 1 tried to apply things that I had discovered in Picasso's Guernica, but f fund It impos sible, And yet, [believed that perhaps I was capable of understanding. Zev’ writings fascinated me. [understood that even an usly 19t-century building could be valued Ins historical construct, but I absolutely couldn't understand the bllng. found it aslerto understand the writings of Glue Carla Argan, with whom I ate sted In those years, Argan’s Borromin was published ia Milan. believe Iwas one of the few to really understand i, because I already had a certain philosophical background. Thad begun to understand that it was possible to rea architecture as a human fact, rasa history of human labor and subjective eligisity I coud’t evaluat whether wnat Argan wrote was tue or not, but what fascinated me was his Bruneleschi, hich I red later at university? My transition to the study of architecture was more orless conditioned by the thought that, ven i only knew how to draw figures, IF could’ draw bulaings, even so, Ifhistory wore part ofthe curriculum, I would be able to understand more by studying history. But instead I suffered a violent shock. Why? Keep in mind that twas November of 1953. Thad jst started to attend classes at Valle Giulia io Rome. The classes Iwas most interested in were those on artistic literature. Renato Bonelli was teaching there, He was a disciple of Croce, or at east continually invoke the gure of Croce While hi was of eat Ineres ta me, twas wll within my mena frame of reference But the terrible thing was that al the professors teaching the most important sublets were feels. They wee the one ho had come bac aftr the ‘war. There was Enrica del Debbi, very stupeman who later sued me There was Ballo Morpurgo Hislast name wa f couse Jewish and It secs that Ballo was aed fits Aryan merit in 1938, He was he scoundrel who destroyed teenie are ofthe Augurte In ordert bul at horrendous fascist tle pian. Vincenzo Fasolo wae pofezor ofthe history of art and architecture ~ anther faclst who would never show upto clas, and when edi came, be woul shout. He never showed us ny architecture, reer taught history, would drawbig diagrams onthe chal bard ‘euting how stupid weal were, and then would storm out He showed up to teach nly thee times ina whole year ~ tough ou could ell call what ei eaching, The profesor ofthe desion sto, als fascists, would never show up for lasts, Basically they relied on assistants. These \werethe profesor. The operative principle was that contemporary architecture must ret enter int the cure. Iwas considered a heey. ‘My violent shock occured in the design studio. There was a certain Tscannsrictor ame Carlo Domenica Rosi who besa his fra etre with the assertion, "From now o, you must abandon your books. Tae your pei as your eny instrument." [tad mel that I had to change professor immeately! What oes itmean to abandon books? fo fac Inthe culture that hese professors wanted to transi there was particular deinition cf We architet. Was ean artisan whe sted Latin? No. For them, he was an artisan wha had aly just learned ta speaks lite bit of alan, ony Just. Thiswas, in acetain sense almost a postive hing, because it inspired st farm a smal roe camprieé af gues who ae now teaching at ~ universes in Venice an Milan: Gigi Pccnato, ho teaches urbanism and the story af urbane n Venice; Segia Bracco in Rome; Vee Cuil als in Rome. There were furor five of us wha eeteda smal group opposed ta everythin, Cut eal ferent was Maria Pannunsio'joutrl 11 Mondo (swe were azo play opposer.) Antonio Cadena, for example, was le urdmental The problem atthe time was whether or not there was an etic. Does ti ethic passthrough human observation and participation? Does It have anything directly to do with architecture? At that time we thought of architecture more as urban planaing. Therefore, we wondered if planning vastinfact more important than beautiful form: in my fourth year of university young man, a friend of mine, gave mea book by Perre Francastl, Lo. ‘spazi figuativ dal Rinascimento al Cubismo, and I though, yes, this corresponds exactly tothe typeof eulture that I love, But in the suburbs of Rome, which visited frequently rats attacked childven, there was pa, misery. Al his was going on while they were building the Rome Hilton, utile battle was waged over regulatory planning, which in the end suffered aterible defeat. And the, without our thinking about it too much, Sartre's Titérature engagée became a reality® But we did't have any referents like the Sartre we knew before the Partita Comunist. Al of this brought us closer to Pannunzo's I! Mondo. Sx years of paycheanalyis have glen me the insight to understand that it was nota random choice but rather a ‘fundamental postion of solitude that caused me to joln a minarty group, “ oe J “imi ~ detected us, but my father d’t care. Every time | asked my father i Mussolini was good or bad a chil question he laughed but didnot answer 1 reproached him for that. My father dd not talk very much sald almast nothing. silently reproached him later n my life, because ithe was listening to Rao London, he should have told me. My mother, who was Jewish, run, Thad ery serious Issues with my family, vas even tempted to become a starting in my last years of high School and continuing through university silently accused my mother of agnas- ticlsm, asserting thatthe world was sick, and that she only thought about making ‘money and ving well. had the idea that one needed to experience pain since itis also apart of life. Sometimes I even expressed these thoughts to he. In the end, my ‘ducation was neither Catholic nor Jewish, [had to gt all f my religous uation on my avn. Looking back, I think this was a positive thing Passer Ieeciatel attr te way, and in the earl 1950s, > ur far reat newspapers at home? Di you read the papers? “Tafuri After the war, we were suddenly very poor My father became a tax river forthe Americans because he had aca He drove people from |_ Rome to Naples and from Naples to Rome. Then he started working fr the Minister del Lavori Publi. We read Il Messangevo andl Giornale | ala remember the tno frontpage heslies. But you have to understand that hey were always rea tala syle" My father use to all ItMessaggero “il menzognero," or ia (asked him ho he supported onthe ‘question of republic versus monary, but he wouldnt tel me. Later iscovered that my mather had soe finds, but all with great superficiality, hich 1 always opposed. Se learned to be proud of belonging tothe opposition, First at home, then in igh school, and especially at university. So what dldwe do? Wehad ta stu. Inthe university there was nething but rmis-educaton, so we had to educate ourselves. What referents did we have? ‘Well, undoubtedly the most interesting figure for usin those years was Ernesto Nathan Rogers, aiectr of Casabella-Continuita. We thouet he ttle was loriousbecauce it vas Casabella by Giuseppe Pagano, which became Casabella-Contnuta Fortunately the fst issue came out just when I enrolled atthe university in Rome. Then there were Zev! and Argan. Ze was teaching in Venice at the time, He was la charge ofthe history of art and architecture program. Argan was general supervisor ofthe ine arts program, but eventually went to teachin Palermo, He ater was transferred to Rome, here I attended thee af is clases, Butat thebegining, in 1954, 1955, 1956, in those years, ou group had to manage on its own. It as primarily Zl with whom we inated our poem, but without ever meeting him. We engaged with his texts. We would meet a thebrreria Albrecht Rome are since we dt have much teow hp st st hasan mtn very mich Ween airs ory ae news anetig | titferent. We woud give aureivesa theme, For example, Argan’ book Welter Gropius la Bauhaus’ had recently come aut and was very important he | | me ‘ily ied pbiosophical thought to the historical context of Weimar Germany asthe ideas and production fa group rather than a single architec. This was fascinating tous because we believed that organized groups could eantravene the rampant professionalism an the bad habit of buldrs. {Leman sulla cite, which hadn't yet ben released as fim, became the object of aur hated, agalnst which we saw that the faculy was totally misguided, Why’? Because our professors were misguided, and most of our student colleagues wee sons of developers and builders. So we had to study what was basically forbien, Te was forbidden, but itwas ofthe moment. Contemporanety for us was Germany ofthe 1920s, but we could see the birth of something, a hotbed of contradictions. In hs Bauhaus beck, especialy i the frst elton cbecause he softened his positon in ater esitions), Argan brought together many of the fundamental themes of 1920 Weimer culture, lke the theme of Exlsen2 minimum, with Heideggee’s DDasen, Today this connection nauseates me, but a the time, Iwas fasclnated. The most dramatic thing about this book was that Argan sw inthis connection, perhaps taht the tentative last attempt to redeem reason atthe expense of ignorance (which would soon intercede), the lat attempt of «European reason doomed to defeat. But It ast Nazism that would bring abou its defeat. This had abi impact on those of us who managed to derstand that book, Itcame out in 1951, and was obviously written in reaction ta Storia del'architetura moderna, published the year before. The ‘wo books represented wo extremes, On the one hand, Zevi proposed an optimistic path, It was really about the "American way of if” He proposed Frank Lioyd Wright asa model, but for him it was nt strictly a formal mode; twas democracy. Actual, both Argan and Zevi already saw in archi ‘ectural form something beyond it. This hada tremendous influence on my thinking, However Argan hada tag vison. Overtime, I came tunder. stand that my mentor abways preferred to caress death, to experience extremes Theor rela vas a to lar abot the worl Wevied io oraz crear fll as and goon summer is tat epi ry dig themost hale workanaritecure suet ad tye pal lg esning cat rss So very ya ram 1956 2960 1963, we saa feet par of Eure, concentrating nthe thi that were a te centr of poems, ch a eC hapa | aeruntane Ons hat wat as expres eral he pi ote 9305 was unerae sny aee elrwrsrary‘event, ur gaze was trained on 1920s Germany, and later on, Vienna, What attracted us was not the \ elegance but the notion of proposing somethin, reslving something, o speaking out witha violent voce, By that time [had begun to understand architecture, and we were ready to stage the frst faculty ‘occupation ofthe department. There had been earlier demonsratons allover tly In any case, the frst was in 1958. Itwas deeply Nave, because our pretext for demonstrating was the Introduction ofthe state exam for architects, We were abit eyalcl, and we thought we needed to come up with arguments that would tir ‘our ignorant colleagues to acton, to stage Something that would violet shake up the entire department. ‘The most important things that we were looking fr pretext, weak inks na chain, in onder to effect isruption. We used ta say that we had litle bit ofthe whole world concentrated within the department. But that whole world was conceived, as Antonia Cederna taught, as a protest against corrupt building practices ‘rom which emerged a political comprehension ofthe situaton. Al of us followed the trial of Salvatore Rebecchini/VEspresso with tremendous anxiety, not least because twas our bible. And we found thatwe had In front of usata certain point Saverio Muratar, a figure wh taught fourth. and fifth-year design studios. He had jus arsved in Rome from Venice, and was a well-known personality. Murator| was the architec of the Chistian Demacrat office at the EUR. He was someone unique, someone who had strong intellectual resonance, someone who could really thick. He proposed a rather trale vision of history, because for him the crisis began at leas inthe 18th century It steed ike one ad need to think so auch atout Hans] Sedimayr, but rather about someone who had contemplated te crises insolation and sutfered considerably, suffered for the ward. These crises semed to be the erises af European scence, of Husser, Murator, advocating an extremely reductive culture, was against evrything that was modern. Tiss the pont. He thought that true modernity meant tat everything should start all over again, “Tiswas fascinating froma certaln point of view ‘We couldnt allow ourselves to think about these things because they were minor in relation to certain much larger problems. Bt Muratori was the person we wanted to confront because he was invulnerable. He refuse to talk with us because hls way of thinking only functioned if it remained osed ta dlalogue, At this point we realized tht he was just another weak tink, sowe organized the operative concept of "ibetac'insegnamento” LHreedom of teaching. And then there also had tobe “reedor of learning.” (On these rounds, we organized another demonstration in 1963, twa or three years after { graduated. Some of us like myself, had graduated; others were til students, This was an extended occupation ofthe department, the longest and most famous one before 1968, I lasted ssty days, and somehow seemed to have the effect of rejuvenating the eidactic syster, because the faulty, the ones I mentioned eaiey, came tothe realization that the only appropriate rection was to reerult new professors. They called Ze from Venice, Ludovico Quaron! from Florence, and Picinat from Venice. Forus it wasafilure, We rejected the idea of recruiting pafessrs wha had been importa twenty years earlier. Inthe end we renounced Rome, ina certain sense, because we belived at that ine that It was impossible to change anything asserin How exactly was the demonstration conducted? You took posesslan by sitting in atthe department, iterally eccupying the ofies and bullings? “Tali: Yes. These were actual oeewpations, vielen occupations, But the university was ot accustomed to such things. At one point the secretary ofthe department sai “Lack, tm going to cll th dea.” I replied, "Okay. Cll he dean antl hi" The secretary said °Utl him that youre all scoundrels, that now 'm disconnecting the electrical power” And I sald, "Aright. Go ahead and disconnect the electrical power. In the meantime we wil restrain you” Unfertuately now fda’ remeber the man’s nae, butt was very funny renber that someone brought some ropes, and we lei io EoFis avait del semicon ihe porate, ve it i ‘eansormtion ofthe department a 8 ied roughest un ‘ the oer hand we arte tag at ash profesional aetivity based principally on commptiticr “his AUA, when ita formed, ed the principal Frincga bates, in pare Ue suestion fhe vege maren, beeaue curing 960 ad 1964, are as prefiqured he Sratcentro-snisra center fet for examileUTet {INU} Tse sara corrupts because they enibrace cele“rl ot professionals oven Ble ra the contactor ote architec Fer who wer pur the conrad ‘objective of extablning an assaelaton of ery young architects and architecture stents signed tous the act of bial ths knd of bate Thus the word of bln, pica in Rome, but moe gereraly arban building actu ross ay pulnever somort Unrate ates oma law Buin he 1960s thre asain he NU ono aan a aed ne ae total onmership of a Seacrest on theca beabe have eer bet able rive ssi, We ised San Pano foro sones at he eda ple For vs ita these ashing Le Cis Grog, The saree we wl every epape and express our dutta hey would repr ono aes ith ere to spit up it two arvps hen we wen tthe etal fest the papers Perens he mos intresing thing thatthe person ho came with me was Massimo Teodor, a member af the Partio Racal. These rons eld a te fscinaton, but the same ine wire entirely fein ‘Aer Tambren and ote such ncisents we elt we oul continu witht a party aflation. Many of us, lost the entire arp, hase the Fart Sails, for obvious reason. We blew that al te arerpobies~hich a hatte were much more evident - oul be rel: hissed, an thre was anew fra precise social referent. The Partito Comunist expecially thse lose tous, were’ inter ‘ested. OF they were oppositional even inthe communal councils there was silent opposition. It was tulya strugale: Buti patleuar it was becais a Putt we wre leds the fad Interns ole avs. And it was very et, since we ei personalities lke Celfo Basso, and Raniero Panzler. Almost immediatly Panzievi became the ‘main figure; and almost immediately after that, Quaderni rossi These thing had tendency to overlap. In 1962 and 1963, Quaderni ross had already started to comeett and apotem ree tat was etre new ee Wae 2 non-Marslst doctrine. remember the slegan we use, that sto return to Marx means a de what he has done, that ls to start all ever apain; that was Mariam — nat to read Marx ina servile way. This position asso strong that it resulted ina cxeainaistortin: we profoundly despsedall the Marxist works that were published atthe time. We decried them as cholate,” even he mist nteligen. wae ony