HepT( seas) —r wed escrte (eae) PREFACE DREAMING / CREATING / PERCEIVING / FILMMAKING AN INTERVIEW WITH WRITER-DIRECTOR CHRISTOPHER NOLAN INTERVIEWED BY JONATHAN NOLAN(CN 1 was. Then I tok the idea of corporate espionage and applied it {othe thing Tl been working on ever longer, which was dreams. ‘remember the inital genesis quite clear. My interest in dreams ‘comes from ths notion of realizing that when you dream you create the world that you are perceiving, and | thought that fedbeck lop ‘was prety amazing I remember when I wae in college you hed fee broafast that fnahed at nine ook 8 [laughs] That would be an important part of your ie ‘CN Tt was very important. So you ad to wakeup to got the free break fast and then you would go beck to bed because you hada't gone to sleep until fourin the morning But I would make sure 1 ot tend then | would go back to sleep for another tw or thee hou. And in that slightly weird iocombobulated sleep I discovered that you can have ‘ctve dreams, and tbat when you realize you ae dreaming, you could contol the dream. thought that was ally amazing I emembor having «drat ae saying to myself "Okay, there's «bunch of books onthe shel 1 pl ‘book off the tbe and ook at it can I read the words inthe book?” [And could because your brain is making up the wards inthe book. Or ‘you could be walking on beach in your dream an pickup a endl of sand and you'd be looking all the grains and thinking “Well my brain s puting al the milion of grains inthis handful of sand” ‘What this immediatly suggests—forpeting the alleged frewall between creation and perception in your brani the infnie poten tial of the human mind. To me, that is what is exiting, Because we tall about tis al the ie, using the analogy ofthe computer fr the ‘numan brain. 1am aways interested by ehnge that soe ode that soalogy And I think drening.- LN: reaming isa prety good one (CN: Yeah, bocause being able to crate a whole world and to have a conversation with someone in a dream~you fel like you'r having a convecttion, but you're patting all the words into that other person's mouth. IN: Youre playing chess agnnst youl! thou relsing you's your ‘en opponent. ‘CN: Yeh, which you can do in waking life There's no form of shadow bing lke that while you're awake IN: L think the fret time I ever considered the fect that dreaming is differen than perception was when yo fist desribed how sophisti tented it a to me, e's facinating insight into what the mind is tray Capable of because dreaming i o much bigger than perception. And ‘yet doesnt oom ike there's ot oferta acon reearch being one on (CN: 1 would imagine dreaming doesnt atract lot f scenic interest because ofits subjectivity ss anecdotal LIN: The abject has le been yoked int slightly bizarre and obsolete theories about peychology that have tainted it a it But none of thos theories are realy echnical lthough the mechanics of dreaming are sncredible CCN: Yes, and I think its possible to analyze those mechanics. trhen science and philosephy cross over, when this scence ofthe Thuman mind iets the philosophical edge, that I think people drift Into sbtreton. So what the Bl res todo is keep it in the realm cf scence fction—to keep iin the realm ofthe mechanical and the relatable t doesnt become abstract and incomprehensible. There srerules tothe way the characters ute dreaming which defines realy, ‘which defines the dear they enter. The character ake great pride In koowing these rules and tha they apply absolutely. LIN: You get this great oct of rules because the promise ie that the Areames cet know they've dreaming You have to keep it bound We ‘that much more exciting because i feels close to reality. CCN: Iwas dfritely looking for a reason to impose rales inthe story ‘daring the writing process, When Iza the fst Matrix fm, thought Ie wae really trib but Iwaet sure {quit understood the ln on the power ofthe characters who ad become oelFaware. “ception onthe other hand about a more everday experence ith dreaming I's about a more relatable human experience. I'does' ‘question an ctl realty. es just saying, “Okay we all dream every ight. What i you cold share your deam with someone else" And ibocomer an sterate realty simply beens the dream becomes. a form of communication jut ke ying «telephone or going online. ‘wanted then, tobave ale st get of resonathat you could graph Foc wy ie not chaos and snarchyfr why it hes tobe order, nd why you need architect and an architectural brain to create the world of ‘he dream forthe subject to enterIN: Everyone can bea Superman lather own dreams But your pro- ‘tegonints approach the dream with experi and ubletytheaety ‘ofthe way they manipulate the dream. (ON Yes—exacly Ie about the subtlety and that is where the heist ‘movie ides came from. 1 been dealing with the world of corporate eplonage and 9 forth but as soon as you want to present the se st of conning somebody, of fecling somebody, then you enter the ‘word of the best movie. And that e wen I consider this srg to ‘nave begun, when {figured ou that Iwas going toute aheit movie structure to wrangle these ideas in, which wae sbout tn years age. ‘The problem Ihad was fishing it because the heist movie as & genre tende to be dliverately superficial It tends tobe glamorous It tends tbe light entertainment. And I realize that when you're tall ng about dreaming, when you are talking about this universal human experience you need the stakes ofthe story to have a ich more emo ‘onal resonance, So the risk we're taking with genre in the cave of Inception-rather than boing science fetion meets dames Bond or ‘whatever those sorts of things are—is saying, “Okay, well ake ist ‘movie and well give it massive emotional sees” INE In a Funny way, it actually takes dreaming back to a kind of Freudian, Jungian place that speaks to how your innermost secrete are locked away in our dreams Soinstesd of stealing money cr somes ‘hing superficial, yur actually tealing something very very impor ‘tant. Orin this cas, implanting somthing very ver important CN: Well when you look atthe word thatthe fm suggests. your suconsciou is going to start tral fortying your seeets in the dreams Ifyou were in edeeam-share and understand the rues of i ‘once your subconscious knows that it can crete structures to dafend Itself oro protect information, then i going to forty naturally. ‘Bat lao, the way that our own minds are aort of treacherous, ‘te going to etart leaking more and mote secrets and more and mere things you're worried about into that word o it's the sot of weird ‘xctation ‘Think of Cobb with his issues, asthe onion of hi character peal ‘ay during te fl. And Arad, who ie wor much tho person whe pokes at that. The idea i that somebody whe ally done alot of this, ‘3 going to be much stronger in the doam But they'e alo glng to be way more vulnerable because their ubconsious hows the stakes ‘nd knows all the things that can happen inthe wold Theyre not Innocent in other words LN: Lets go back tothe process of i Ten years. What brought you back to the projec? (CM: Ate finish evry film, ook at what I might do nest I would ‘tthe draft for Inception ot and wuld read it, gun. {would show ite Emina [Emma Thomas) and sometimes show to youto get more thoughts on But never quite knew how to finish i unt Treaized thatthe antagonist ofthe Bim shoul be the guy's wie. IN The antagonist had originally been his parts. CON: Yes it orgy had been his partner. The heist movie conceit. Hie parierin crime who had betzayed him and so forth Bu that dat lead anywhere emotionally 1 didn have any retonance And as son anit became his wife that lipped the whole thing form Tht mde st very, ery relatable LN: Kid of unlocked the end of he lm fr you. ‘CN: Iecompetely unlocked the end ofthe fl. completly unlocked ‘how you could make something that a wider audience might care about cause to me, whenever you deal in the woud of esteie or overly ‘complex science Seti, ot heist movies or fn noi, yu'te working for omullr udionce. If youre ging to doa massive move, though, youve got to be able to ualock that more univer experience for your telf swell 8 forthe audience. Thats what it took for me. As soon at {realized that Mal would be his wife, became completely eelatble, LIN: {laughs} Someone suggested to me—someone who had seen the fm and dined itthat being metied to one of your characters ie & ‘very, very bod ide, And when you tally tp, pretty much every im of {yours has a dad wife in it Dead wile, Dead gilriond. Dead faneée ‘EN: Ive writen quite a ow dead wives that's true But you try to put your relatable fears in thes things. That's what film noir sand T do “iow Inception se Ein no You tke the things you are aetully wor ted about in rea if, or things you care about in rel life, and you crapoate that into a univers Ne domeati draa~palated as large as possible. EW: You tum 1 info melodrama, People shea tlk sbout melodeara ‘sea pejorative bt L don’ know what ater word theraIN I fel. Tha’ why 89 many ofthese things always come bak to it And how i sll manages to seem fresh esch time. Hopeful (EN: Wall, youh, hopefully. IN: How about wting whale you're directing? Is that tlcky? (CNET dont find it tricky because with everthing Ive worked on, ‘whether Tm werking on it with you or other writes (worked with lly Set on nsomnic for example. Ive shasta it upon yell to do the las set of reveriter And that lat me make itall go through ‘the mill of my brain my fingertips, my computer, whatever, And at allows meto fel as connected with ita uff 've made up from nothing, IN; Bur thls ones all you. Thies you carving an defor ten years. Iedferent? (CN: Nea it no diferent to me tha an adaptation With Memento, for ‘example you gave me the shor story, but from tat point Iwas cn my ‘own in terms of feeling like, “Okay now how do {make all that” With “Inception, while I came up wth the concept mel Istarted to tke it for granted quite apily-almost ket was somebody eles thing So ‘ts not realy hat different. ‘The difference is that when you are working with your on ides, you arerelying more on your own judgment fora much longer period ‘of time. Whereas, when we writ together, lacking at what you've done and then Tra~for @ mach shorter period of ime—imposing iy ‘own judgments on tht, and then getting It to you again So there this boc and forth, aed you deal withthe de intermittently for much shorter periods of time: When youre on your own for month and ‘months and months, i's much harder tobe ebjecive about i ‘And there's alt of insecurity that come with that. So wen you put it out in the world and start to actualy make the thing there are efnite moment had it with Memento and vry much had it with Inception. We vere checking pitt, ‘Golabera, abou alway through eel 5," ‘i arealy strange filrealy strange!” JN: But Ido believe you sid that sbout mart everything lavghs] ‘we've worked on. ‘CN: Possibly, but with The Dark Knight, you se, Iwas ble to lok atthe fry scene at che end while mixing for example, and Psat, “Wow. This really unusual way to end a big action movie” Bat 1 already knew that because was something you put In your dra ‘thich made me immediately think, “I don’ know about that” (JN Taughe}Ilnow tht 1 epent month and months trying tose if that ‘ould change, bt couldn't. IN: That's fanny. We had the inverse eationship on Batman Begins ‘wath the microwave emitter, when you and David [David Goyer] came ‘up wth that aa there looking at it fora wale [CNV laughs] and finally sid, "Thin what thas tobe” ‘CN So when you'te working with your own ide, on your own ther’ no second qucsing in that sense Second quesing yourself o much tarde than second-guessng other people: Much harder. IN: Tm doing tha right now on another project. Isa trcky one, cn fs. very tick Nt: How about working with actors? Thi is «film where you've got “seme great actor, some great characters. Hew much workis required tering those rwo thing together? (CN: fee x grest cat. 've been fortunate enough to work with great ‘este om all my fis, Particularly witha lot ofthe smaller characters, ‘the supporting characters, grat actor wil come in with whe take fon it and they iterally give what's onthe page some hind of life ‘that you hadn't foreseen. You'e always in a much more intensive rela ‘oneip wth the protagonist since the truth of thai character define ‘where the narcative ie going. La's (Leonardo DiCaprio] job on ths Elm was very mich the same a Guy Peare'sjb on Memento. He had te-open the sort of purale bor emotionally forthe audience and guide thea through it And Leo takes the truths ofa characterization very seriously. By fa, the biggest burden on me asa sreeneriter and director sss during preproduction of the fm, because I had to dan enor~ ‘hous ameunt of rewriting based on my conversations with Leo about Cobb. All f which I thin wus very productive fo the movie, very teeta othe movie. But had to do that while was prepping 2 lin In x countries Which was quit a big burden, But it had to be done, fan think we got it dane very effectively, " ve had this with other actors—when they come in and they ‘simply pull at why thele character does particular things. No in aasbutract sense of "Whats my motivation? or whatever, They us sort of go, "Okay, ve waked inthis door and I've walled up here and say ‘this, Why am saying ths? Why aren {ust going here?” And you Ihave to actully thik of And sometimes you have an ansier. And sometimes you have an antwer and they dent buy i (JM chuckles) [other times you uct dont have an answer and you know youve cheated on something and you've taken leaps. And certainly with ‘Leo, you could gt by with any ofthe chests any of the situations here i ie," kindof ow how to get fom A 9 C through B, but rot realy And so we pt ot of stention to working those thinge out. And think we worked them out o my attain, and hopefully to the audience’ satisfaction, because that relly what the actor ie helping you do a thet point. They're scr of tying tobe the conduit forthe audience IN They parse the il forthe audience, aa Brox. ON: Yea LIN: Well that's a good eague to the next question I wanted to ask ou, ‘which about the complsity of the li, This realy, tome eels ke» marrage of allthe diferent aepects of movies that ve seen you make: ‘the sensibly of Memento and the complexity of tht flim the inter sctivity ofthat film the way that i atk the audience to work a litle bicharder end then the large-scale excitement and fun of something like The Dark Knight This one realy feels ike you're sing both sil ‘ets Did you ever think to yourself when you were working on the script, “Okay, no ones gong to beable to allow me?” Ts there a polnt ‘of complenity where ou fel ike you i your rer Limiter and you do ‘want to 90 any farther than that? ‘EN: There are points where you wory that yeu might be puting too ‘machin and alienating the audience. Bu, funnily enough, some of thote fears arent comect.Somstimes, when you start thinking too smch about what an audience is going to think when youre 00 vel conscious about you make misskes Semewhere inthe bac of my ‘mind, for example Thad assured the business with the spon top in the sfe would windup being et out ofthe film. But when we started showing the film to peopl, that ene. INE You actully thought you'd have to cutit out? ‘Ch: 1 thous we'd have ta love because it was a symbol to far. Or ‘sn mage too fr. But what we realized in showing it people is that ‘hey sctslly grasped the imagery a8 something to hold on to, a8 an lvtration of things that had happened of camera JN Right (cn: So you ean often mishadye that The underlying philosophy for ‘ein term ofthe complerty ofthe lm, ha alway been that those things that hd allowed Memento to succoed wth audience in avery -mainrtream fshion could be tapped to make ahgescale movie, And that’ the promi on which Incepions been bul [ied to do i wth ‘ny Howard Hughes project fret And when that wast going oy 1 put alot of tha thinking into this ito fusing the sale and entertain nent value of large fm with something more—apd {really don't ‘want o say “challenging for an suence” because I dor’ thick thats jut ite diffrent and a ite bi ofa shi ‘Thad always elt tht there wae abig version of lm ike Memento that could reach a wide audionce, but the thing that gave me conf ‘dence inthis idea was listening t how audiences reacted to Memento la very mainstream way. Not by admiring itor hnding it clever, but bust enjoying Guy Pearce was ahuge part ofthat Because hk spproached Memento in quite cold manner lapproached it asa bit af spurl box Casting an actor who loked forthe emotional truth ofthe character and put tito every ene though—that opened tp for enaudience tht ever would have come tour fim And {earned from that. learned that Ihe to trast Leo and his aoeosamonts of ie character Cobbs truths. alo Teared that inthe sit Thad 0 py ‘tention to he felings o my emotional engagement wth the mate- ‘al soar a Iwas standing in forthe audience IN: There’ lovely moment close tothe third act when Ellen Page as “riadne makes a crack Youre rolling ito the lowes level ofthe dream tad she wonders whose dream we aren. And remember watching the film forthe frst time with an audience and being stack with reli at that moment. it ask bins let ff the hook as ie fil was saying “Olay, this ea Lt thats coming et you. Bur thatthe point. t's fun!” ‘The comply oft becaroe pat ofthe fan oft {think the proposition for you fom Memento onwards, and F'n ‘very much onboard with this that the audience i not givon enough ‘reit~that people tend to thnk that there are very clear als to what fan aidlence can handle and wha they cart bane. And this movie ie ‘double barel shotgun at thove expectations(CN: Well, ve done really wells far in my career by trusting the auad- ‘nce tobe as destined with convention as 1am, asa fimgoer. You ant to go se fm that surprises you in some way. Not fo the sake of ‘it,bu because the people making the fm are relly trying to do some: ‘hing that they havent scenathoussnd ies before themselves, IN: Exactly, ‘CN 1 give a film aot of cred for trying todo something fresh—even Aft doesn’ work You appreciate the efor, to a degree. think the thing that I always rect agaiet as Elmgoer, though, i insincerity ‘That ito ay, when somebody make ln that they dnt realy enjoy thomaelves, just to preduceaneifect on the audience. And what really frustrates me wth afl lke Inception (or ely anything that ve ‘worked on) a when you show somebody te film and they think youre ‘uying tobe clever Or show of alvays fee ike Ive completly fled at that point Because I know as flmgcer thats somthing I react ‘gaint Whether i's conventional or whether ive unconventional, you want obeliove~you want to know-—that he flak loves the move, lovee what that movie does. That they lve actully sting there ad vatching that move IN Ton tat kind ofthe sed tony of making movie ike this? Doyo feel there litle tinge of regret inthe fact tha you've writen the seript and made th movie, but that you wil never really get 3 watch Jt? You end up making the movie youve always rally wanted to vee and then never ell gett se I (CN: Ido get ose Becaise with every lim ther! be one sereening whore fr whatever eason~beeause of whe the audience is orbecase ‘of where Iam technically nthe proces or bacause of what elements Fm watching-I am actully able to watch the thing ina completly fresh way, kei in mine And chat abeaye age, huge ples. loli frightening, and litle daunting, beens you watch tin fan incredibly heightened manner. And think one of the eaten sil ‘really love oseren the work print eu it and ape together, that ‘san credibly stressful way of watching afl, Because the image ‘aw-itenot dressed up atl It's an incredibly high eslution image But every splice ean break, and the projector can bounce too much yout tered of tho tchnial aopets forthe audience. And that in ‘tel makes you watch iin an incredibly attentive manner. You just ‘ce things and fee dings you nven' fl while watching i on the ‘Ari for months and months. Itkind of reinvigorates the experience IN: When you describe the fragility ofthe work print teccurs to ‘ae, deing us bac tothe beginning ofthe conversation, that your job isan intererting one becare you're nt just watching the movie ‘yout creating the movie. You nt ust experiencing relity—you're {reaming it for yourelf Did yu think alt about the connections to ‘mmaking andthe dreamer technology inthe fli? (CN: You know, never made tha onnection a all nti you aid Ne [laughs] You're not supposed to let on about that. (CN: The heist move aspects, too, closely parallel the process of make ing a fll You have a team af people working together. You've got twits, you've got en actor, production designer, a DP But it had ‘ever occured to me that everything Fm saying about creating 2 ‘hing aed tying to perceive tat the same ime, whichis what youre Going as you eit the fim, relates absolutly tothe Smemaking process “That's the whole thing youve trying to do: You're erally presenting ‘this thing in which you've put words into people's mouths, and you're ‘ying to watch ita youre fresh 0. LIN: And etme siting ofa similar because you got wo yrs 3, ‘on average, work onthe project you've done, and tha’ to create ‘bout re hours worth of perception. Yeu can see, es you watch the ‘film how long tock you to shoot ench individual momen, and it sort ‘of congeas into something tht suddenly goes by very quick. ‘CN: But L would naver want to make fl ltetly about filmmaking. ut making something that you tally relat 1 beeaute ofthe work you do and the process you're engaged in, that actually alot of fun.