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Kapitankomar
4th Feb 2013, 16:38
Hi,

Piper Seneca which belongs to my company has limited MTOW = 1999 kg. Do you know how to increase this weight to 2155 kg?
I've tried to contact with piper dealer but I've haven't any respond. I would be grateful for some advice.
Aircraft is registered in Poland.

regards
Tomek

S-Works
4th Feb 2013, 20:16
It just needs to be re weighed and the original factory approval used. The reason they were all weighed in at 1999kg was to avoid
the Euro control charges.

avionimc
4th Feb 2013, 21:04
Piper Seneca which belongs to my company has limited MTOW = 1999 kg
The reason is because the Seneca owner, or previous owner, was smart enough to purchase and install an FAA STC to decrease
the MCTOW below 2000 Kg. This in order to avoid paying expensive Eurocontrol navigation fees. Note that the STC is merely a
placard instructing to limit the payload weight, and not exceed certain weight values. If you really think that you do not pay enough
landing fees (yes landing fees will also increase) and that you want to give even more to Eurocontrol and other European
bureaucrats, then, go ahead and have the STC removed by your MRO. But you could pay up to 50 eurocents per NM of flight
:D:ugh:

Of course if you operate outside Europe this does not apply.

A and C
4th Feb 2013, 22:54
As said above the write down to 1999 Kg is just a way of avoiding the eurocharges.

The removal of the placards and replacement of them with the placards stating the new operating limits would be required as
would the replacement of the flight manual with one that reflects the change in the operating limits.

I see no reason to re-weigh the aircraft as the changes are all paperwork and no meaningfull physical change has taken pace to
require the aircraft to be weighed.

Kapitankomar
4th Feb 2013, 22:57
I know the reason why owners decrease MTOW but you must be careful with payload, pax, fuel according to ramp check so my
company wants to increase MTOW. I know about eurocontrol and landing fees.
I heard, kit from piper company costs from 2500$ - 5000$, it is probably something like STC, but this kit increase MTOW isn't
true? I also heard about changing AFM from other aircraft of course it must be the same type - piper Seneca V, but nobody
confirm this solution. Maybe you know something about it?

Pace
4th Feb 2013, 23:34
I know that at 1999 KG That is an artificial weight limit which you have to operate within not the actual aircraft capability.
As others have said It avoids you paying Airways and landing charges.
Interesting point would be insurance? If the aircraft is limited at 1999 KG but capable of a higher weight in reality what would
happen if you operated overweight regarding the 1999 KG but under its true weight capability.
Would the insurance refuse to pay out as you had operated above its certificated weight but below its real weight capability!
Would make an interesting court case as in reality its only a paper exercise

Pace

A and C
5th Feb 2013, 06:50
Technically exceeding 1999 KG will invalidate the C of A......... Anything that happens from that point in court will follow from the
invalid C of A and the lack of data approved for the aircraft at that weight in the aircraft in the flight manual.

Pace
5th Feb 2013, 09:05
A and C

The majority of Seneca owner go 1999KG to save on airways charges etc! To go any distance with half reasonable amount of
PAX which would require using airways would mean exceeding the 1999 KG but NOT the design limits.
As such a lot fly over the 1999KG illegally.
The manuals are written up to the lower weight but the original manual if it was registered at the lower weight would give the
data.
Just struck me that it would make an interesting court case if there was an accident other than the obvious technical paper
infringement

Pace

A and C
5th Feb 2013, 10:37
It might be an interesting case but you would loose !

A number of European airlines have a variable MTOW amd this is declared at the start of the flight and they are charged the
airways fees based on that MTOW, rather than breaking the rules a PA34 owner might like to apply for this arrangement and stay
within the rules.

Pace
5th Feb 2013, 10:57
A number of European airlines have a variable MTOW amd this is declared at the start of the flight and they are charged the
airways fees based on that MTOW, rather than breaking the rules a PA34 owner might like to apply for this arrangement and stay
within the rules.

Sadly I do not fly Senecas nowadays but it was a practice that went on and still does.
What you are saying above is very interesting and I never knew it was possible to have a variable MTOW on an aircraft like the
Seneca.
Would this mean carrying two flight manuals? One for above another for below?

Pace

A and C
5th Feb 2013, 13:40
All the paperwork reflects the biggest weights except the load sheet , that changes with the selected MTOW.