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In this season of death, Trump is once again holding political rallies
‘across the country where thousands of his followers gather, most not
wearing masks, and revel in their deflance of public health, Attendees
at such events can potentially spread the virus to thousands of other
people. In essence, Trump's followers are a type of human biological
weapon,‘Trump insists on holding these rallies because he is an apparent
‘sociopath who lacks empathy, care or concern for other people. His
need for narcissistic fuel is more important than the lives of others
What of Trump’s followers? Why do they continue to flock to his
rallies, which are literal death traps?
‘To most outside observers, such behavior appears as mass insanity,
proof that Trumpism is a form of religion, a literal death cult,
But the realty of TrumpWorld is perhaps even more frightening than
that conclusion.
Carl Hoffman is the author ofthe criticaly-acclaimed
bestseller “Savage Harvest: A Tale of Cannibals, Colonialism, and
Michael Rockefelier's Tragic Quest.” Hoffman's writing has also been
featured in such publications as National Geographic Adventure and
the Smithsonian,
Beginning with Trump's impeachment and ending with the first few
‘weeks of the coronavirus pandemic, Hoffman traveled some 5,000
miles across the country attending Trump rallies, and spent almost
200 hours talking with the Trump faithful who attend those events.
Hoffman documents these experiences in his new book, “Liar's
Circus: A Strange and Terrible Journey Into the Upside-Down World
of Trump's MAGA Rallies.”
In this conversation, Hoffman explains that Donald Trump's rallies
function as a form of altemate realily for his followers. This “upside-
down world’ is tied together by conspiracy theories, ignorance, racism
‘and a longing for an earlier time in America where life was “simpler”
because nonwhite people, LGBTQ people, women and other
marginalized groups "knew their place” and white Christian straight
men were understood as the most essential Americans, Hoffman also
‘explores the similarity between Trump's rallies and evangelical church
revivals where the sick are healed, sinners are “born again" and the
charismatic preacher is seen as a semi-divine prophet.
Hoffman also warns that Trump's rallies — and the realm of Trump
believers more generally — are infused with delusions like the fast-
spreading QAnon conspiracy theory, and that such beliefs pose a
(grave danger to American democracy and society overall.
‘This conversation has been edited, as usual, for clarity and length,
You have a unique insight into TrumpWorld given that you have
attended so many of his rallies. Given all that has happened and
is likely to happen in these final weeks before the 2020 election,
[follow the news closely. | read the New York Times every day, | read
the Washington Post. In general, | am a voracious consumer of the
news. And yet | found that there is a profound difference betweenreading about something and being in the literal world of Trump at his
rallies. That world was shocking to me.
| was shocked to see how Donald Trump has an urge, a type of deep
need, for authoritarianism. | don't think its a plan. He is not smart
‘enough. But with Donald Trump — and you see this atthe rallies
—his ego is everything. Trump is such a damaged human being. He
is empty inside and has to fil that space. He cannot lose. To lose is
the worst thing in the whole world for Trump, psychologically. | saw it
at the rallies, It makes one’s hair stand up to watch this urge toward
power in person. As | explain in the book, Donald Trump is a
dangerous person and anything can happen with him as president
uring the 2020 election.
What does the mainstream media, along with the general public
outside of TrumpWorld, fall to understand about his power over
and appeal to his followers?
It's weird to be at a Trump rally. The first place I went to for a rally was
Minneapolis, | went the day before the rally to get a sense of what
was happening, I didn't know what | was doing, | had never been to
any of his rallies before that one. The first 10 or 20 people were lined
up. In line was a Black man wearing a stars-and-stripes baseball shirt
‘and a MAGA hat. | didn't talk to anyone. | left. The next morning, |
got there about 6 a.m. and the line had grown exponentially
throughout the night, | leamed that had to start getting in line much
ceatler.
Atfirst, | was shocked because there were many more Black people
there than | had anticipated. But then, as | hung out at more Trump
rallies, | realized that 100 or 200 Black people out of 22,000 is
nothing. And then. of course the Trump campaign people pick Black
people out and put them in “Blacks for Trump" T-shirts and then have
them standing behind Donald Trump's podium so that the cameras
‘can pick them out
Donald Trump is a racist and a Trump rally is an overwhelmingly
white event. Whether you see people engage in flagrant displays of
outrageous racism or not, it
‘Make America Great Again,” what does that even mean? What is a
(a terrifically racist event. That slogan
‘great’ America for people who are at a Trump rally? What they want
is a world that looks just ike a Trump rally.
The people at a Trump rally will tell you that what is great about being
there is how everyone is alike. They are upfront about that, Itis a very
white world, The people at Trump rallies are very happy to have token
Black people there who are wearing MAGA gear. Trump supporters
do not want social change. The Black people at Trump rallies do not
have any power. They do not threaten power. If you ask the people at
the Trump rallies — | lke to call them "Trumpians” — they will say
Fight away, "Well, liberals always accuse us of being racist, and we're
not racist.” In reality, of course they are.‘Trump's rallies are a type of theater and scripted performance.
What is the format?
Donald Trump's world is an upside-down one. It is a fantasy world
‘One of the most popular songs at a Trump rally is "YMCA" by the
Village People. There are 22,000 people pantomiming the letters
‘YMCA at a Trump rally. The next person that comes on the stage is
Vice President Pence. Out of 22,000 people, untold thousands of
them are fundamentalist, evangelical Christians who think
homosexuality is a sin, And yet their favarite song is a disco hit about
having anonymous gay sex at the YMCA.
‘This detachment from reality happens over and over again at a Trump
rally, Trump will come out and say, "How many union people are
here? Trump is for the working man. Trump is for the union man,
‘even though the Republican Party has relentlessly attacked unions
for decades. A Trump rally is really a wild place where this man
‘appears and says he is going to fix everything wrong in the world. He
is going to fx every problem that you have in your life. Trump says
the other people, the Democrats and people who don't support him,
are just dirt, they'e trying to ruin your life. They're coming after you.
But Donald Trump? He is going to ix your life. And he's going to fix
you too,
Donald Trump has been credibly accused of sexual harassment
‘as well as sexual assault by numerous women. He has cheated
on all his wives. He also wants to take away
women's reproductive rights and freedoms. Yet millions of white
women are devoted to Donald Trump. How do they explain
themselves?
‘The women at the rallies are some of the most incredibly zealous
‘Trump supporters. One of the great cultural strains at play with the
‘Trumpians are issues with work and masculinity. This is particularly
true for white, non-college-educated men who traditionally were able
to make a living — and a relatively good living — and support a family
just with their hands and the strength of their back and their work
ethic,
‘Such white men have seen the world shift in some pretty dramatic
ways. Women and people of color have become much more
‘educated and much more integrated into the workforce during these
last few decades, Women are more educated than men now in terms
of degree attainment.
Many of the men who support Trump fee! really lost, The women who
are their partners feel the same way. Maybe those women had to
work too, as teachers or as nurses, But they bought into a very old,
traditional model of masculinity. With that world shifting, Trump's
‘working class” supporters feel completely adrift. Ata Trump rally one
‘sees so many women buy into those emotions.What are some of the shared values and beliefs at a Trump rally?
‘Ata Trump rally, the biggest shocker for me was the extent to which
‘everyone believes in the worst conspiracy theories. They do not read
newspapers or follow the mainstream news. Trump's supporters live
in an upside-down fantasy world.
‘Anon, for instance, is not some weird tangential belief held by a
minority of nuts. QAnon js a mainstream cultural phenomenon among
tens of millions of Trump supporters. Itis also taken for granted that
the American press is the “enemy of the people.” This would be
repeated over and over again at Trump's rallies on the speakers and
the Jumbotron screen.
Moreover, there are a lot of people at Trump rallies who do not even
watch Fox News. Again, they don't watch any news at all. It was quite
frequent for me to talk to somebody at a Trump rally, and they would
tell me, “I do independent research.”
‘Trumpians are not doing critical thinking. They are looking at Twitter.
Many of them are also into OAN, the One America News Network
‘OAN makes Fox News look progressive.
The role of right-wing evangelical Christianity is very important in
understanding Trump's appeal to these people. Many of them believe
we are in the end times. That makes it easy for them to succumb to
conspiracy theories, Itis all fertile ground for the fantastical world that
Donald Trump inhabits.
Why do Trump's followers listen to him? Because they are used to
listening to fire-and-brimstone preachers raging about the end of the
world and the end times. They listen to him because there are tens of
millions of non-college-educated white people who feel their privilege
‘somehow ending. The world is changing, and they are very frightened
of that. These are not people who live in Chicago, New York or
Washington.
Is Trumpism a cult? Are the rallies cult meetings?
| do not believe that Trumpism per se is a cult. But I do think that
Donald Trump plays off one of the great icons of American history
and culture, which is the preacher.
When | first went to a Trump rally my assumption was that the lights
‘would dim, and that Donald Trump would come out on the stage and
there would be a spotlight on him. | was shocked and surprised to see
that at a Trump rally itis hyper-it— itis incredibly bright and there
are no shadows. | shared that observation with a woman in Dallas.
‘She explained to me that its Ike church. Trump's rallies are like a
church revival. You want to see the preacher, and the preacher wants
to see you. The idea of being "born again," what does that mean? To
be bom again means you have to die, For an urban secular person,‘such thinking is very strange and foreign. But for millions of
‘Americans its all very mainstream and normal.
‘The idea of being reborn is something that happens because the
preacher convinces you that the world is evil, and that you're sinning
50 badly that you essentially die, and then he brings you back. At a
traditional church revival, people faint, they pass out and then they
‘come back to life and they are reborn. | have seen this happen at
‘Trump rallies. | have watched people fall out at a Trump rally and then
be carried out on stretchers and placed near the front row. To my
‘eyes it is very clear and purposeful that the people who organize and
plan Trump's rallies are well aware of these echoes of the church and
religious fundamentalism,
What do you think happens if Donald Trump is defeated by Joo
Biden? As a group, will his followers become violent?
‘That is hard to answer. Most of the Trump people that I spent time
with at the rallies were not violent. They were not carrying weapons
— you can't bring a weapon into a Trump rally anyway. | believe the
‘Trump people | spoke with at the rallies would accept the outcome of
the 2020 election.
Yes, there is certainly a much smaller subset of people who are
potentially violent and dangerous. And I don't know what happens
with them, Perhaps I am being too optimistic? Maybe | believe in the
‘goodness and innate people of human beings too much? | do believe
that Donald Trump will do anything to win and that he does not like to
lose. But | do hope that if Trump loses by a wide enough margin that
will, in and of itself, be enough for a peaceful transition of power after
the election,
‘You immersed yourself in TrumpWorld through all these rallies.
What do you know now that you did not before?
| am shocked at the deep and widely held belief in conspiracy
theories and the extent to which the right wing, from Fox News to
Donald Trump, have perverted the truth to the point where people
‘question ifthe truth even exists.
| believe that the truth exists. | believe it is reported in such
newspapers as the New York Times and the Washington Post and
other places, every day, But there are many tens of millions of people
who regard anything that comes out of the country’s leading
newspapers as “commie propaganda” or what have you. Such beliefs
do not bode well for the United States.