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HOW TO PRACTICE SCALES: SCALES

AND READING MUSIC POSITION
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08-16-2017, 03:17 AM
Jazz Guitar Chords
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Oneofthe
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Hi:

I can't !nd this online and right now I don't have an instructor to ask. I Latest Threads
know how to read music. What I mean by that is that I am pro!cient in
the First Position, Fifth Position and Twelfth Position. I've studied the play along with jimmy bruno
Posted By neatomic (0 replies)
Second Position, but I've never been "uent in it as I think it is less Today, 07:40 PM in The Players

common but still valuable. I'm aware there is an Eight Position which
might be valuable but the Oakes book does not teach it. Key Centers / Arpeggios / Jimmy
Bruno / Modal...
Posted By tonejunkie (0 replies)
Here are the questions: Today, 07:20 PM in Improvisation

1. How many Positions are there in Position Reading or Position Bird and Bud
Posted By Petimar (0 replies)
playing? Today, 06:12 PM in The Players

2. Can scale study be used to be a better position reader? In other I’ll Be Home for Christmas
Posted By Triple_Jazz (0 replies)
words, in learning the Seven Fingering Patterns of the guitar can that Today, 05:25 PM in Chord-Melody

be directly applied to all positions that are used in guitar.

 Molly Miller
Posted By BickertRules (3 replies)
Thanks a lot for your help. I'm sorry if my question is not clear. Ask and Today, 04:09 PM in The Players
I'll clarify. Thanks again.

Edit 1: New Forum Posts

I think there are Seven Positions in Position Reading. Johnny Smith was obviously a very
methodical man. My old guitar
teacher had taken some lessons with
Open, Fifth, Twelfth, Second, Third, Seventh and Eighth him and walked me through that
same technique for stringing and
tuning the instrument. An...
Please correct me if I am wrong. I'm assuming these positions all
Johnny Smith: stringing and tuning
correspond to certain keys. Today, 08:06 PM

Thanks That is lovely

Good Sounds
Last edited by Oneofthe; 08-16-2017 at 03:29 AM. Today, 08:05 PM

Reply With Quote Hi JohnoL, The main section of Dizzy's

'Be-Bop' comes to mind. Harmonic
minor and jazz is an excellent point
08-16-2017 03:17 AM of discussion. I've seen little that goes
into much detail about it in the
The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary literature,...
Anybody use the Goodchord Voice
Leading Books?
Today, 08:03 PM

Even cooler..... Dr. Molly Miller, Guitar

Department Chair at Los Angeles
College of MusicDr. Molly Miller...
From Royal Albert Hall to Coachella,
Shaping Musicians of Tomorrow -
Jazz Guitar Today ...
Molly Miller
Today, 08:03 PM

Whoa thanks for posting she’s there.

08-16-2017, 09:51 AM #2 Molly Miller
Today, 08:00 PM
M-ster

Join Date: Oct 2010 The Johnny Smith Stringing & Tuning
Location: No. VA, USA Method |
Posts: 2,002 MarkWeinGuitarLessons.com
Johnny Smith: stringing and tuning
Today, 07:56 PM
It strikes me that the better and better you read, the less you'd think
about which position you're in. The lines and !ngerings would cause This nails my tonal recipe deluxe
you to adjust your position as needed. reverb at 2.5 guitar set to both
pickups neck pickup about 3 bridge
pickup just a little so the tone
Reply With Quote sparkles just a little TI GB12 "ats
I don't need another guitar.......but......
how good is an Ibanez GB10?
08-16-2017, 02:45 PM #3
Today, 07:54 PM

rpjazzguitar
Join Date: Oct 2015
I am going to cut and paste a part of
Posts: 3,318 my response to another thread on
the GB10: My personal tone recipe
 Originally Posted by Oneofthe for my GB10 is the guitar, a low
capacitance George L's cable plugged
Hi: into a reverb pedal...
Ibanez GB10 - Replacement Pickups
Today, 07:54 PM
Here are the questions:

1. How many Positions are there in Position Reading or Position playing? “It’s Entertainment” as the song goes.
:smile-new: The terms Lounge Lizard,
Leisure Suits, and... ready...
2. Can scale study be used to be a better position reader? In other words, Naugahyde all come racing in. But he
in learning the Seven Fingering Patterns of the guitar can that be directly does handle the organ side way
applied to all positions that are used in guitar. better than the...
Found a Cheap Gibson Johnny Smith
Thanks a lot for your help. I'm sorry if my question is not clear. Ask and I'll Today, 07:49 PM
clarify. Thanks again.

I have a meeting that will gobble up

Thanks
all my practice time tonite so it is an
o# day for me.
Howard Roberts Super Chops: study
Here are my thoughts: group for a tune based practice routine
Today, 07:48 PM

1. Fingering patterns are not helpful in reading. I know some, but I

never think about them when I'm reading. happy to see return of the great
jimmy bruno on u-tube...announcing
opportunity to play along with him
2. I don't know what "position reading" is. I've never heard the term. via zoom...under frank vignola's
true!re brand...a beautiful
The closest I can come is that certain keys may feel easier at certain opportunity cheers
positions, for example, if you're playing a melody with only notes of play along with jimmy bruno
the C major scale, you might think about V or VII, although you're likely Today, 07:40 PM

to have to move a bit. A good reader can play any key in any position,
ps- going to be hard to beat the
with, as usual, some stretching or shifting.
resonance of the tru-arc copper
bridge (if correct radius and all) with
aluminum bigsby...but both equally
3. For the novice, it's a good idea to peek ahead and !gure out the interesting...one pure vintage...the
highest and lowest notes in the passage you're about to read. That can other new...
give you an idea about where on the neck you'll need to be. But there Guild M-75 Aristocrat
Today, 07:35 PM
are a lot of considerations in selecting where you're actually going to
play the entire passage. Too many for this post.
I have a 1981 Ibanez GB10 (made in
Japan) which I bought used in 1986.
4. My advice: a graded reading method which includes all keys -- and Every time we have one of these
threads, I pull it out and play it for a
play everything as written and then in a di#erent octave. I used Colin while and I'm reminded that it (1) has
the perfect...
and Bower "Complete Rhythms", but younger guys usually
I don't need another guitar.......but......
recommend Leavitt. how good is an Ibanez GB10?
Today, 07:34 PM
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haha..very 21st century!! gettin it

08-16-2017, 04:44 PM #4 right is all that matters...by ear or by
gear! cheers
Oneofthe Johnny Smith: stringing and tuning
Join Date: Jan 2017 Today, 07:27 PM
Posts: 48
Original Poster
Jay Leaonard J on youtube seems to
really enjoy his tele with a bigsby. Of
course, anything he plays sounds
This was a little bit of work doing this and a little frustrating but it did great. He mentions that he uses a
help me with a section of Tonal Harmony (textbook on theory) that I Vibramate String Spoiler non-
intrusive attachment to...
glossed over. So, I'm giving you what I suspect is the !nal product. Telecasters and Bigsby?
 Today, 07:23 PM

Notes:

1. These are all the Major Keys that include Sharps (#) Popular Forum Threads

2. Notice, it is all played on Position 2. Oakes does teach position 2 but Videos
Last Post By AlsoRan (135 replies)
does not give it as much emphasis as Open Position and the Fifth Today, 06:50 PM in From The Bandstand

Position.
Bebop language IS modern language
Last Post By Eck (103 replies)
3. Tonal Harmony does say a way to learn the Major Scale is by 12-14-2020, 06:18 AM in Improvisation

studying the Keys. I completely agree with this. This reinforces the idea
to me that Scales are a learning tool to learn Keys, their individual More B_lls Than Talent . . . What Do
You Think?
sounds, and to better learn to read music. At this point I see no other
Last Post By Marinero (72 replies)
value in Scales. Today, 10:01 AM in The Players

Edits: Rudy's Music selling his D'Angelicos

Last Post By Stringswinger (70 replies)
12-15-2020, 11:06 PM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos

1. Because of the way it was edited on the program E Major looks like F
Major. There is only F# Major that uses sharps Happy Birthday Jim Hall - So What's
Your Favorite JH Album?
Last Post By SkipBurz (52 replies)
Today, 02:42 PM in The Players
2. Tomorrow I'll do this for the Flat (b) Keys

Very special NGD: One of Tal's - Tal

Here it is: Farlow
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12-11-2020, 06:24 PM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos

Any jazz guitarists being accomplished

bass players?
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Today, 03:27 PM in Other Styles / Instruments

Rock/shred guitarist new to jazz,

suggestions for online courses/schools
etc
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Yesterday, 01:37 AM in Getting Started

Chords in tonal context

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Today, 02:34 PM in Comping, Chords & Chord
Progressions

V7#11 to the tonic, any Great American

Songbook tune really call for this?
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12-09-2020, 12:57 PM in Theory

Humidifying a thinline electric

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Today, 10:18 AM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos

I don't need another guitar.......but......

how good is an Ibanez GB10?
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 What’s the best action archtop you’ve
ever played??
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Last edited by Oneofthe; 08-16-2017 at 04:46 PM.

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08-16-2017, 05:11 PM #5

emanresu
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 978

I just toss it here again,

diat.bmp - Google Drive

Thats pretty much all that I need. 3 positions, not overlapping, easy
overview. Thats kinda mental pic for the whole layout. I needed this to
simplify the mess and to tie everything together - chords, arps, scales
into one big simple thing. Doesn't mean I use only 3 !ngerings - when
playing ii7, I be minding just 2 segments at once and play in-between
those. Much easier for the head than having 7 overlapping patterns.
As reading skills, dunno. Never had the urge to merge patterns and
notation really.

For each their own of course.

Last edited by emanresu; 08-16-2017 at 05:15 PM.

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08-16-2017, 05:16 PM #6

Oneofthe
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 48
Original Poster

Originally Posted by emanresu

I just toss it here again,

diat.bmp - Google Drive

Thats pretty much all that I need. 3 positions, not overlapping, easy
overview. Thats kinda mental pic for the whole layout. I needed this to
simplify the mess and to tie everything together - chords, arps, scales
intoto one big simple thing. Doesn't mean I use only 3 !ngerings - when
playing ii7, I be minding just 2 segments at once and play in-between
those. Much easier for the head than having 7 overlapping patterns.

As reading skills, dunno. Never had the urge to merge patterns and
notation really.

For each their own of course.

Thank you.

I really want to see this but I'm afraid of linking out. Is there a way you
can post it as an image if is not too much trouble?

The way I do it is convert my draw !le (I use open o$ce) into a PDF
which OppenO$ce can do and then go onto a website to convert it
into .jpg !le then I post it from my computer.

If you it's too much trouble I understand but thanks anyway.

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08-16-2017, 05:22 PM #7

emanresu
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 978

diat.jpg - Google Drive

 Reply With Quote

08-16-2017, 05:35 PM #8

emanresu
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 978

cons - easy to fall into comfort zone with only 3 !ngerings. That's real
bad and can bite later. The cure is to start playing in between them.
Minding 2, not memorizing a new one. Nothing hard but at some point
its a must-to-do.

pros - ... countless. biggest one is that you can learn 20 30 chord
voicings for one function in 30 mins and those are very likely to stick
with you. Not a stupid advertising - its really that easy.

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08-16-2017, 06:47 PM #9

Oneofthe
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 48
Original Poster

Originally Posted by emanresu

diat.jpg - Google Drive

Thanks, you made it as a .jpg but can you please make it as a picture
just as I have done? Google Drive is notorious for spreading virus's. To
post it as a pic, choose the icon on the message board and upload
from your computer or do it as a url from a photo sharing site.

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08-16-2017, 06:50 PM #10

emanresu
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 978
 Reply With Quote

08-16-2017, 10:02 PM #11

Jazzstdnt
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Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 1,795

Sounds like we're confusing positions with !ngerings.

Generally speaking, if a guitar has 20 frets it has 18 positions. (Open

position though 17th position).

When it comes to movable !ngering patterns (no open strings) that

cover all six strings, and that only repeat after 12 frets have been
covered, people use di#erent patterns or "systems".

Some fairly common patterns involve either 3, 5, 7, 9, or 12 !ngerings.

It takes some experimentation to discover what you prefer.

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08-16-2017, 11:01 PM #12

matt.guitarteacher

Join Date: Jan 2010

Posts: 4,459
Sure. Patterns help. I just can't imagine that most players don't think of
some basic reference patterns. For most of us, at the very least, it's
probably something like C-major or G. You learn basic and then know
where accidentals are from there. It's easier to get a grip on where
EVERYTHING is when you at least know where SOMETHING is.

Re. positional playing/reading up the neck, I have personally found the

2nd !nger reference (that Kurt Rosenwinkel and Reg, here on the
forum, advocate) to be very helpful. Basically made me realize I knew
more than I thought I did. It's a physical reference rather than a
key/root reference and is much easier on the brain IMO.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

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08-17-2017, 12:06 AM #13

rpjazzguitar
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,318

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

Sure. Patterns help. I just can't imagine that most players don't think of
some basic reference patterns. For most of us, at the very least, it's
probably something like C-major or G. You learn basic and then know
where accidentals are from there. It's easier to get a grip on where
EVERYTHING is when you at least know where SOMETHING is.

Re. positional playing/reading up the neck, I have personally found the

2nd !nger reference (that Kurt Rosenwinkel and Reg, here on the forum,
advocate) to be very helpful. Basically made me realize I knew more than I
thought I did. It's a physical reference rather than a key/root reference
and is much easier on the brain IMO.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

If we're talking about how a novice learns which note is where, then
sure, if a pattern helps you locate them at !rst, I can see the point.

But, when you know where the notes are, you have to look at a
passage and !nd a !ngering that works - if the tune is slow, lots of
!ngerings may work easily, but if you have to read a lot of notes
quickly, it may require some forethought.

Since the passage you're trying to read was probably not created with
geometric guitar !ngerboard patterns in mind you position your hand
whereever it allows you to play the passage.

I think the patterns are a distraction once you know the !ngerboard.
Of course, like everything else in guitar, there will be a great player
who did it some other way.

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08-17-2017, 06:22 AM #14

matt.guitarteacher

Join Date: Jan 2010

Posts: 4,459

Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

If we're talking about how a novice learns which note is where, then sure,
if a pattern helps you locate them at !rst, I can see the point.

But, when you know where the notes are, you have to look at a passage
and !nd a !ngering that works - if the tune is slow, lots of !ngerings may
work easily, but if you have to read a lot of notes quickly, it may require
some forethought.

Since the passage you're trying to read was probably not created with
geometric guitar !ngerboard patterns in mind you position your hand
whereever it allows you to play the passage.

I think the patterns are a distraction once you know the !ngerboard.

Of course, like everything else in guitar, there will be a great player who
did it some other way.

Yeah, I'm not talking about novice readers honestly. The best reader
I've ever known advocates reference patterns this way. He can read
anything basically, in multiple positions, in octaves etc - on the "y, from
a chart, basically faster than most decent guitarists can even PLAY.

And he always talked about having one basic reference approach to

!ngering as a starting reference. The idea was that once you had that
together, then yes, you can pretty much !nger anything the way you
want. But that's after a tremendous amount of work put in, and not at
all in SPITE of the patterns, but BECAUSE of a very solid knowledge of
them as a basis for fretboard geometry.

So many great players talk about high level playing in ways that almost
seems mystical. So I really appreciated him being pretty
straightforward with this approach, and for talking about
fundamentals, and how one might approach beginning a journey to
eventually getting there.

It certainly bears out my experience with piano . Fastest most e$cient

way to learn to NOT have to think about !ngerings so much on the
piano, from my own personal experience, is to have a very good
knowledge of beginning "proper !ngerings". I found that by the time I
have it really together the "proper way", I have facility to !nger things
basically any way I want. Great pianists don't worry with "proper
!ngerings" necessarily at all levels, but they put in a lot of work at the
beginning and certainly work a LOT about basic patterns and reference
!ngerings.

Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 08-17-2017 at 06:26 AM.

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08-17-2017, 06:56 AM #15

Oneofthe
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 48
Original Poster

Hi, thanks everyone for the replies. I really appreciate your input and it
means a lot to me.

I started playing guitar a little bit ago and the instructor I had was
really good. He was out of Berklee and was a professor at a local
private college. The sense I got was that he o#ered lessons, through an
a#ordable local music school, simply out of public service.

When I came in I had known the Major Scale from a book called Guitar
Grimoire Scales and Modes (I'm i#y on the book now). He was able to
o#er me these scale !ngerings from the start to correct the Guitar
Grimoire approach. The next thing he did was use this Major Scale to
introduce the concept of intervals.

But what surprised me was that he wanted to teach me to read music.

His method was to hand me a sheet by a classical musician named
Kreutzer and tell me, "it's in the Key of C." At the time I could not !gure
how to read it using the C Scale. Because of work and circumstance I
had to stop taking lessons.

Very soon after I discovered the Oakes book, which I highly

recommend, and learned to read music based o# of an approach of
positions on the neck of the guitar. Here is a link for more information:

Guitarists: Learn to Read Notes in 1st and 5th Position - Learn Jazz
Standards

Now, according to Oakes the positions used are Open, Fifth, Second,
Third, Seventh, Eighth and Twelfth. Open and Fifth are best used for
the Key of C (no accidentals). Twelfth is used for the highest octave.
(remember a Jazz Box or Classical Guitar really only goes to a little bit
more than the Twelfth fret). Now, the book gives a little bit less
information on the Second position but that is more used for the Key
of G and others with Sharp accidentals. The Third Position I suspect is
used with the Flat Keys, but I won't know this until tomorrow. At this
point I suspect the Seventh and Eight Positions are used for Sharp and
Flat Keys, respectively, that lead into those higher octaves. The point is
each position is related to a certain Key.

Now, where this comes full circle for me is in discovering Scales can be
used like my instructor tried to teach me at !rst; it can be used to help
the reading process. I also think, and have been told, Scales help in
hearing the unique tones of every Key. Right now my Scale Study is
thirty minutes with coming up with these diagrams not being a part of
my study at all.

So, the conclusion I draw about Scales is that they are a learning tool. It
may sound controversial but Scales are not a music creation tool at all.
I know and you have every reason not to believe me, the best songs
written never came from a Scale.

Thanks again.

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08-17-2017, 08:13 AM #16

Jazzstdnt
Guest
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 1,795

Originally Posted by Oneofthe

Now, according to Oakes the positions used are Open, Fifth, Second,
Third, Seventh, Eighth and Twelfth. Open and Fifth are best used for the
Key of C (no accidentals). Twelfth is used for the highest octave.
(remember a Jazz Box or Classical Guitar really only goes to a little bit
more than the Twelfth fret). Now, the book gives a little bit less
information on the Second position but that is more used for the Key of G
and others with Sharp accidentals. The Third Position I suspect is used
with the Flat Keys, but I won't know this until tomorrow. At this point I
suspect the Seventh and Eight Positions are used for Sharp and Flat Keys,
respectively, that lead into those higher octaves. The point is each position
is related to a certain Key.

So, the conclusion I draw about Scales is that they are a learning tool. It
may sound controversial but Scales are not a music creation tool at all. I
know and you have every reason not to believe me, the best songs written
never came from a Scale.

No o#ense but there is some demonstrably incorrect info there, or at

least some easily debatable info.
You need to develop the notion of "area" in addition to position. Think
of an area as "a position plus or minus one fret".

So, for the areas around the positions you mentioned above you need
to be able to play in all 12 keys, for all scales. (diatonic, symmetric,
pentatonic, blues, etc).

Now, regarding music coming from scales or not, well, most

compositions from the last few centuries are !rmly rooted in tonality
or keys, and keys are created/de!ned by scales. These keys/scales
govern both melody and harmony, and that's 2 of 3 of the
fundamental elements of music (melody, harmony, rhythm).

That's an oversimpli!cation mind you, but one may want to compose,

arrange, and improvise some tonal music for a while to fully
appreciate the utility of scales.

Something to noodle on.

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08-17-2017, 09:31 AM #17

pkirk

Join Date: Jan 2013

Location: Bloomington, Indiana, USA
Posts: 1,016

Hey Oneofthe: It's not clear to me what the question is here. Do you
want to learn to read better and would like advice? do you want to
know your major scales in 5 (or 7 or 20) di#erent guitar positions? Do
you want to learn how to compose music? Do you like Jazz and would
like to learn to play jazz guitar? You are getting well-meaning replies
but answers need questions, and I can't !nd one in what you wrote.

Presumably the teacher who urged you to practice reading is

anticipating teaching more advanced material which might be easier to
communicate to you if you have a decent command of the fretboard.
Presumably he also wants you to be able to play major scales so that
once you have internalized them, he can use that to teach you how
melodies and harmony are assembled. By analogy: You have to learn
arithmetic before you learn algebra, and you have to learn algebra
before you learn calculus. That doesn't mean that learning arithmetic
teaches you anything about calculus.
In my opinion, your posts indicate to me a frequently repeated
problem of aspiring guitarists who go down the rabbit hole of
confusing basics of elementary musicianship with the making of music.
I think knowing how to read, knowing scales, modes, chords, names of
all the notes on the fretboard etc, are important skills that jazz
musicians need to have, but many people have a good control of these
things but can't play a single interesting thing. And as our colleagues in
other styles of music teach us, you can make compelling and beautiful
music without knowing a single thing about scales, positions, or
reading music.

Since one of the main aspects of jazz is improvisation, the goal is to

train yourself to create interesting music in your brain and get it
instantly to your !ngers. Things like positions and scales are useful
towards that goal in the same way that training wheels are useful to
learn to ride a bike.

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08-17-2017, 10:26 AM #18

Oneofthe
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 48
Original Poster

Originally Posted by pkirk

Hey Oneofthe: It's not clear to me what the question is here. Do you want
to learn to read better and would like advice? do you want to know your
major scales in 5 (or 7 or 20) di#erent guitar positions? Do you want to
learn how to compose music? Do you like Jazz and would like to learn to
play jazz guitar? You are getting well-meaning replies but answers need
questions, and I can't !nd one in what you wrote.

Presumably the teacher who urged you to practice reading is anticipating

teaching more advanced material which might be easier to communicate
to you if you have a decent command of the fretboard. Presumably he
also wants you to be able to play major scales so that once you have
internalized them, he can use that to teach you how melodies and
harmony are assembled. By analogy: You have to learn arithmetic before
you learn algebra, and you have to learn algebra before you learn
calculus. That doesn't mean that learning arithmetic teaches you anything
about calculus.

In my opinion, your posts indicate to me a frequently repeated problem of

aspiring guitarists who go down the rabbit hole of confusing basics of
elementary musicianship with the making of music. I think knowing how
to read, knowing scales, modes, chords, names of all the notes on the
fretboard etc, are important skills that jazz musicians need to have, but
many people have a good control of these things but can't play a single
interesting thing. And as our colleagues in other styles of music teach us,
you can make compelling and beautiful music without knowing a single
thing about scales, positions, or reading music.
 Since one of the main aspects of jazz is improvisation, the goal is to train
yourself to create interesting music in your brain and get it instantly to
your !ngers. Things like positions and scales are useful towards that goal
in the same way that training wheels are useful to learn to ride a bike.

Hi, I apologize but the original questions were:

1. How many Positions are there in Position Reading or Position

playing?

2. Can scale study be used to be a better position reader? In other

words, in learning the Seven Fingering Patterns of the guitar can that
be directly applied to all positions that are used in guitar.

Now I know:

1. There are Seven Positions

2. Scale Study can be used to be a better position reader and the seven
!ngering patterns can directly be used to all positions that are used in
the guitar.

That was essentially my question. I got it answered by doing that

diagram with the direction of Tonal Harmony. Then I shared it. Last
post was just to describe where the original question came from in the
!rst place and my conclusion about Scales in general.

Thanks!

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08-17-2017, 10:56 AM #19

matt.guitarteacher

Join Date: Jan 2010

Posts: 4,459

Originally Posted by Oneofthe

Hi, I apologize but the original questions were:

1. How many Positions are there in Position Reading or Position playing?

2. Can scale study be used to be a better position reader? In other words,

in learning the Seven Fingering Patterns of the guitar can that be directly
applied to all positions that are used in guitar.

Now I know:

1. There are Seven Positions

 2. Scale Study can be used to be a better position reader and the seven
!ngering patterns can directly be used to all positions that are used in the
guitar.

That was essentially my question. I got it answered by doing that diagram

with the direction of Tonal Harmony. Then I shared it. Last post was just to
describe where the original question came from in the !rst place and my
conclusion about Scales in general.

Thanks!

No.

Again, "position reading" isn't any kind of conventional terminology as

far as I know. You must be using some very speci!c term from a book
or something. I don't think you can say that "there are seven positions
" or even !ngerings etc. There are more possible than that, and you
certainly CAN use fewer than seven. Much of it is personal choice,
whether it's your own or you're adopting someone else's .

Think of !ngerings this way: if you play C-major in one position that
could be a starting point. Now add a "at to make it F major, in the
same position without moving. You can continue on to B-"at and then
E-"at etc. going around the cycle. If you're using stretch !ngerings , you
generally are adding !rst !nger stretches to evolve from one !ngering
to the next one "forward" in the cycle. Five position people are
generally using !ve positions within the cycle which are generally
thought to be the easiest to !nger. Seven position people generally
have two additional positions, which are arrived at but simply cycling
forward by two additional keys, if you want to think about it that way.
You'd arrive at the same thing by simply learning to play scales from
each degree starting on the second !nger , but it doesn't really matter.

If you cycle backwards instead of forwards, you eventually get to the

point where you're using fourth !nger stretches . All of this is laid out
in William Leavitt's modern guitar method volume 3, but honestly, I
wouldn't recommend going this overly nerdy route at the start. Right
now it sounds like you need a TEACHER just to work you through the
basics. This kind of analysis is maybe for later after you know how to
PLAY some things at more basic levels and have more fundamental
basic understanding.

Just understand that you can't simply say "there are seven positions".
It's not factually correct. There are easily 11 and technically more.
Seriously, learn some basics from a teacher, and quit "words-ing" this
stu# so much with "Internet people" like myself.

Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 08-17-2017 at 11:00 AM.

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 08-17-2017, 11:54 AM #20

Vladan

Join Date: May 2009

Location: Belgrade, Serbia
Posts: 2,621

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

... If you're using stretch !ngerings , you generally are adding !rst !nger
stretches to evolve from one !ngering to the next one "forward" in the
cycle. ...
If you cycle backwards instead of forwards, you eventually get to the point
where you're using fourth !nger stretches .

Say you are in 7th position (index is reference for position), when going
for G major, do you really stretch pinkie for F# on 11th fret/ 3rd string,
or you conveniently play it on 2nd string/ 7th fret?

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08-17-2017, 12:02 PM #21

matt.guitarteacher

Join Date: Jan 2010

Posts: 4,459

No. Sorry. I was talking about "outside" notes. Notes out of POSITION
which REQUIRE stretch. In your example, the F sharp at the 7th pos. is
actually an in-position note. If you play the same thing from !fth
position, for example, you're going to need to stretch fourth !nger to
get some of those "outside " notes.

"Position" doesn't really have anything to do with accidentals by the

way. You could talk about "in position " notes and "out of position"
notes in a key like F sharp as well.

Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 08-17-2017 at 12:06 PM.

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08-17-2017, 01:11 PM #22

 Vladan

Join Date: May 2009

Location: Belgrade, Serbia
Posts: 2,621

So then, whole logic is in learning notes on all strings in chunks of 6

frets, 4 + 2 with stretching, 1 + 4 + 1?
I thought it was connected to scale !ngerings.

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08-17-2017, 02:13 PM #23

matt.guitarteacher

Join Date: Jan 2010

Posts: 4,459

Originally Posted by Vladan

So then, whole logic is in learning notes on all strings in chunks of 6 frets,

4 + 2 with stretching, 1 + 4 + 1?
I thought it was connected to scale !ngerings.

Sorry. I'm not following.

Originally Posted by Vladan

Say you are in 7th position (index is reference for position), when going for
G major, do you really stretch pinkie for F# on 11th fret/ 3rd string, or you
conveniently play it on 2nd string/ 7th fret?

No. Play it at 7th fret like you're talking about.

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08-17-2017, 02:25 PM #24

fep

Join Date: Jul 2008

Location: San Diego
Posts: 4,844

For scale positions I like CAGED which is 5 positions, or for a better way
of thinking of it, 5 references. Once you learn that you'll !nd yourself
playing between the references and sliding from one to another. That's
why I think references or landmarks is a better way of saying it.

For reading I think you can just go to the Leavitt book, A Modern
Method for Guitar. He doesn't use CAGED to explain the scales, I used
a CAGED way of thinking though when I went through the book. This
book was (still is?) used at Berklee School of Music so it probably lines
up well with what your instructor was showing you. And the book does
use the term "positions" for the reading studies.

I recorded my way through the entire 1st book, a couple of examples:

This 1st one is a duet, I switch to the single note playing video around
1:05.

A Modern Method for Guitar Page 108 & 109 2nd Position Review

A Modern Method for Guitar Page 93 Chord Etude No. 4

Last edited by fep; 08-17-2017 at 02:29 PM.

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08-17-2017, 02:58 PM #25

rpjazzguitar
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,318
Here's the way it works, at least for me. I look at the passage I need to
play. Let's assume it's challenging -- meaning, too many notes, too fast,
to be able to play it just anywhere.

1. !nd the rests -- because those are the places where you can shift
position most easily

2. !nd the range -- because you need to be able to reach the highest
and lowest notes.

3. look at the notes -- and try to !gure out where to start. This is the
only area in which thinking about position makes sense. For me, it may
be a little easier to play things with my 1st and 3rd !ngers than 2nd
and 4th -- which means that the key of C might be easier at V while Eb
might be easier at III. But, by the time you factor in accidentals and the
need for position shifts (see below) you're not likely to be in a single
position, no matter where you began. You just think, where are the
notes on the guitar and how can I play them?

4. Then, identify any problems which will keep you from executing the
passage. Typically, for alternate pickers, the problems are in the right
hand. The solutions typically involve position shifts with the left hand
to accommodate the pick. After you get used to it, it turns out that it's
possible to shift position very quickly. A complicated passage
sometimes requires multiple shifts to accommodate pick direction.
Sweep pickers, I think, may have an easier time with this, although I'm
not sure, since I'm not good at that.

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08-17-2017, 03:29 PM #26

Vladan

Join Date: May 2009

Location: Belgrade, Serbia
Posts: 2,621

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

Sorry. I'm not following.

No. Play it at 7th fret like you're talking about.

No, it's not you.

It's me who do not understand that system of physical reference you
talk about.
When you speak about positions and one physical reference (2nd
!nger on 6th string), it sounds like if there was a system.
Of course, I have my own , as we all do, but it is not really a system, it's
more like set of preferences, based on convenience.
I do start from some self preset rules, but there are too many
exceptions. Maybe "user manual" is more of what it is.

I looked at what you are saying, many times in many posts, especially
since I thought it bared many resemblances to what I do, hoping to set
the thing straight, but when I tried to nail it down, what I found were
exceptions.
So, it must be your system is not what I thought it was.
In other words, I do not understand it and, likely, never will.

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08-17-2017, 04:28 PM #27

Oneofthe
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 48
Original Poster

Hi everyone:

Sorry, I did not mean to create controversy. I know the subject of

scales sends people into di#erent directions. I apologize for that; it's
just that I get the best help here. If you look at my previous threads I'm
always getting the right advice and insight.

Now, a book I recommend is Ted Gioia's History of Jazz. For my

vocabulary at times it's a di$cult book; I tend to have to look words
up. But the creative process of the History of Jazz is there. I don't
recommend other books by him just this one. (thriftbooks is great,
look at all editions and you can !nd it as cheap as four dollars).

The History of Jazz book by Ted Gioia

Now, something else I recommend after reading this book is the

quintessential Jazz Magazine called, "Downbeat." This magazine is
more than a Magazine it is an American Institution respected by
Musicians and Academics. Through the beauty of Spotify I'm being
exposed to all the Jazz out there. In interviews with the artists and in
bio's about the artists it goes into the creative process. Remember, this
is a general Jazz magazine but they do go into Guitar Jazz. Bill Frisell
was featured a few months back. It's not expensive, only 6.00 dollars
per issue and it's worth it.
DownBeat Magazine

I hope this has helped in some way.

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08-18-2017, 08:39 AM #28

Jazzstdnt
Guest
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 1,795

Originally Posted by fep

For scale positions I like CAGED which is 5 positions, or for a better way of
thinking of it, 5 references. Once you learn that you'll !nd yourself playing
between the references and sliding from one to another. That's why I
think references or landmarks is a better way of saying it.

For reading I think you can just go to the Leavitt book, A Modern Method
for Guitar. He doesn't use CAGED to explain the scales, I used a CAGED
way of thinking though when I went through the book. This book was (still
is?) used at Berklee School of Music so it probably lines up well with what
your instructor was showing you. And the book does use the term
"positions" for the reading studies.

I recorded my way through the entire 1st book, a couple of examples:

This 1st one is a duet, I switch to the single note playing video around
1:05.

A Modern Method for Guitar Page 108 & 109 2nd Position Review

A Modern Method for Guitar Page 93 Chord Etude No. 4

That's helpful but still a little confusing with terms.

Think of position as "fret position" or simply fret, if it helps. What fret

do I place my !rst !nger on while assigning the other three !ngers to
the adjacent frets upward from there? That is position.

CAGED (traditional !ngering) o#ers 5 !ngering patterns - not positions.

In fact three of the !ngering patterns involve a shift OUT of position.

When one starts in a low position, plays all 5 CAGED !ngering patterns
in one key, then begins the cycle upwards from there - they will have
traversed 12 positions, not 5. The CAGED !ngerings cover a full octave
with 5 !ngerings, while Leavitt created 12 !ngerings to cover one
octave along the fret board.

Last edited by Jazzstdnt; 08-18-2017 at 08:43 AM.

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08-18-2017, 09:20 AM #29

matt.guitarteacher

Join Date: Jan 2010

Posts: 4,459

Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt

That's helpful but still a little confusing with terms.

Think of position as "fret position" or simply fret, if it helps. What fret do I

place my !rst !nger on while assigning the other three !ngers to the
adjacent frets upward from there? That is position.

CAGED (traditional !ngering) o#ers 5 !ngering patterns - not positions. In

fact three of the !ngering patterns involve a shift OUT of position.

When one starts in a low position, plays all 5 CAGED !ngering patterns in
one key, then begins the cycle upwards from there - they will have
traversed 12 positions, not 5. The CAGED !ngerings cover a full octave
with 5 !ngerings, while Leavitt created 12 !ngerings to cover one octave
along the fret board.

They are two distinct terms though describing two di#erent things. You
can play any pattern from any position. Caged "patterns" in any key
could also be described in terms of "position", but they're not the
same thing at all.

Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 08-18-2017 at 09:29 AM.

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08-18-2017, 10:02 AM #30

Jazzstdnt
Guest
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 1,795

Originally Posted by Oneofthe

1. How many Positions are there in Position Reading or Position playing?

2. Can scale study be used to be a better position reader? In other words,

in learning the Seven Fingering Patterns of the guitar can that be directly
applied to all positions that are used in guitar.

How many? - Open position through highest position on the

instrument, counted one fret at a time.

Can scale study be used to be a better position reader?

Yes of course. They are a frame of reference as some like to say. If you
want to read in the second position, knowing a scale !ngering pattern
for each key in question in that position (or area) will be essential.

But of course, that will only get you so far because you will be playing
music, not just pure scales. The instant that you are forced to hold one
note while playing another will force you to make a !ngering decision
that may or may not be informed by a scale !ngering pattern.

Cheers

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08-18-2017, 10:20 AM #31

bako
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,489

Guitar positions are generally described in half steps.

Open ... 0 - 4
1st ... 1 - 5
2nd ... 2 - 6
3rd ... 3 - 7
etc.
Most orient themselves around the 1st !nger, others prefer the 2nd
!nger.
People are di#erent, nothing new here.

For guitar, I believe that the existence of di#erent scale shape systems
adds a bit of confusion to a discussion of positions.

Violin family instrument positions are generally described by scale

steps.
For violin and viola, a hand position covers 7 half steps, 4 note per
string scales are the norm.
For cello, similar in size to guitar, a hand position is 5 half step or 3
scale noes per hand position.
Given the 5ths tuning, this then requires much shifting to get at
sequential scale notes.

Playing both cello and guitar though, I prefer the greater speci!city of
position per half step description.

There are study books that teach reading !rst by single positional
reading etudes and then position shifting etudes.
Many like to sight read, especially faster music in a single position as
much as possible.

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08-18-2017, 11:55 AM #32

NSJ

Join Date: Jan 2009

Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,552

I learned and was taught by learning to play the chromatic scale over a
four fret area in one position in which the !rst !nger goes down one
fret if necessary and the fourth !nger goes up one fret if necessary . So
the total possible fret coverage is six frets at any given moment. If you
can play the chromatic scale, you can play any scale .

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08-18-2017, 02:00 PM #33

 christianm77

Join Date: Mar 2013

Location: London
Posts: 16,640

Third position is a good one, and I think working on seventh is a very

good idea.

In practice I !nd most music rather inconveniently moves between 3rd

position and 12th, so I've been working on practicing diagonally in
linked positions to close the gap.

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08-18-2017, 05:04 PM #34

bako
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,489

Five fret chromatics is a physical reality. That is what is needed to play

the notes of the chromatic scale.
Six frets is a pragmatic variation because the extra fret o#ers more
options for some of the most awkward
!ngerings available in !ve frets.

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08-20-2017, 11:06 AM #35

Reg
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,421

Any neck organization and !ngerings will work.... as long as you !nish
the system or organization of guitar neck and how you !nger it.

The guitar is a 12 fret repeating system, !ngerings and neck

organization are a method for the neck or guitar fretboard to become
one big !ngering. That's the goal... you want to be able to play...
Anything... Anywhere on the fretboard.... without staring at your guitar.
So you can look at the music if your sight reading... or be able to
actually play the music etc...

When you have weak or incomplete fretboard organization and

!ngerings... the guitar plays you, as compared to you playing the
guitar.
You don't want to need to memorize everything you play...

An example is... when you play two octave Gmaj scale in 2nd position,
you should be able to play that Gmaj scale starting on each note of
that scale starting on the low 6th string up the neck to 14th position....
that would be one repeating pattern. (without having to stare at your
guitar.) And play that pattern with Gmaj as your Reference, meaning in
any of the positions you use moving up the neck, Gmaj needs to be
your tonal reference....

I'm sure I've posted many examples of this information...

Gmaj in 2nd position, is not the goal... it's part of a fretboard

organizational system , a part or step for reaching the goal.

Reg

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08-20-2017, 11:17 AM #36

Oneofthe
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 48
Original Poster

Originally Posted by Reg

Any neck organization and !ngerings will work.... as long as you !nish the
system or organization of guitar neck and how you !nger it.

The guitar is a 12 fret repeating system, !ngerings and neck organization

are a method for the neck or guitar fretboard to become one big
!ngering. That's the goal... you want to be able to play... Anything...
Anywhere on the fretboard.... without staring at your guitar.
So you can look at the music if your sight reading... or be able to actually
play the music etc...

When you have weak or incomplete fretboard organization and

!ngerings... the guitar plays you, as compared to you playing the guitar.

You don't want to need to memorize everything you play...

An example is... when you play two octave Gmaj scale in 2nd position, you
should be able to play that Gmaj scale starting on each note of that scale
starting on the low 6th string up the neck to 14th position.... that would be
one repeating pattern. (without having to stare at your guitar.) And play
that pattern with Gmaj as your Reference, meaning in any of the positions
you use moving up the neck, Gmaj needs to be your tonal reference....

I'm sure I've posted many examples of this information...

Gmaj in 2nd position, is not the goal... it's part of a fretboard

organizational system , a part or step for reaching the goal.

Reg
I appreciate everything you have written, but remember I'm just talking
about reading music. Honestly, it really pained me to do that diagram;
it's just not something I do. However, to understand the Keys as
expressed in Tonal Harmony it was a nice exercise. Will I ever use it
and look at it again? Maybe not, or maybe I will. It seems now that I
know Gmaj has one accidental of F# I pretty much don't need it.

But maybe I will use that diagram just to explore how this keys sound
and di#er. I don't know at this point.

Thanks.

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08-20-2017, 11:56 AM #37

NSJ

Join Date: Jan 2009

Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,552

Originally Posted by bako

Five fret chromatics is a physical reality. That is what is needed to play the
notes of the chromatic scale.
Six frets is a pragmatic variation because the extra fret o#ers more
options for some of the most awkward
!ngerings available in !ve frets.

Correct. Do you have Six frets as a possibility, when you pick one of the
outer ones with either your !rst or fourth !nger , that excludes the
other outer one and leaves you with !ve.

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08-20-2017, 07:09 PM #38

Reg
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,421

Yes... reading music or performing music, is basically the same thing....

you want what your playing to be what your hearing and part of that is
phrasing, articulations etc... generally when you sight read or perform
in just a few positions, you sound like that. Your missing many options
of what the music should sound like, or even what it could sound like.

The point of being able to sight read or perform in all positions... is to

be able to create any of those possibilities.

It's like saying well I know some pentatonic licks and using the same
licks over di#erent chord progressions... not really being aware of what
the harmonic context of the progression is....

With out basic references... when you create relationships and develop
them... your reacting to the moment rather that the context that the
moment exists within. In reference to reading or sight reading... when
your playing in just a few positions, you have limited performance
options of being able to create the music your performing. (not to
mention being able to move up and down the neck seamlessly without
staring down at your hands)

I sight read well, have been a pro for years, part of reading is being
aware of where the printed music should be performed on your guitar.
Not just being able to get the notes out.

I don't think about positions really that much either.... but I've put in
the years of being able to recognize where the music on the paper
should be performed on the guitar. There are always options, but that
is again the goal... being able to perform those options.

Tonal harmony has many possibilities or references. I'm for the most
part talking about basic musicianship on the guitar, basic technical
skills. Using those technical skills to perform music or develop
relationships with harmonic relationships... is a di#erent subject and
not really related to technical skills.
(there are mechanical references and relationships which can take
harmonic concepts, like tonal harmony, and somewhat mechanically
create relationships and develop them, but generally have limited
levels of performance).

Technical skills and Performance skills.... two di#erent aspects of

playing the guitar that need to be worked on separately. (opinion)
There are again many approaches to doing anything, some are more
e$cient.

Just another basic... generally get out of lower registers or positions,

unless your performing that style of music. Jazz is generally from 5th
fret up to 15th

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08-20-2017, 07:25 PM #39

Reg
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,421
I generally always try and be aware of where I'm going, (the highest or
lowest note) when changing positions, even with chromatic patterns,
so I have choices of where I want to change position. The system I use
is pretty consistent... I don't need to really think or watch, just be
aware of what sound or phrasing I'm trying to create. (I do use 1st
!nger references or based patterns, but they are always in relationship
to a 2nd !nger based position.)

Generally the 2nd !nger is strongest, so personally the best basic

reference... and stretches are more e$cient than position changes,
with 1st !nger stretches going up and 4th !nger going down. These
are just basic references from which I build from.

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08-20-2017, 08:00 PM #40

christianm77

Join Date: Mar 2013

Location: London
Posts: 16,640

Btw - Wes played a lot in lower positions and shifted a lot to get into
higher positions on the top two strings.

Mike Moreno suggests that third position is best for playing in that
register and that higher positions on lower strings sound mushy and
out of tune.

I think he has a point, not that I've got around to practicing this
concept for improvised lines.

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08-20-2017, 08:24 PM #41

rpjazzguitar
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,318

Originally Posted by christianm77

Btw - Wes played a lot in lower positions and shifted a lot to get into
higher positions on the top two strings.

Mike Moreno suggests that third position is best for playing in that
register and that higher positions on lower strings sound mushy and out
of tune.

I think he has a point, not that I've got around to practicing this concept
 for improvised lines.

I recall, years ago, avoiding the higher frets on the lower pitched
strings. They played out of tune.

But, more recently, as a solid body player and doing my own

intonation work, I can go to the 15th fret on the lower strings with
acceptable intonation. Well, maybe not the 6th string so much, but I do
use the C on the 5th string for a few things.

Maybe some of the problem is a tendency for the !ngerboard to tilt up

gradually after the neck meets the body. At least, I've seen that on
several guitars.

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08-21-2017, 06:30 AM #42

christianm77

Join Date: Mar 2013

Location: London
Posts: 16,640

Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

I recall, years ago, avoiding the higher frets on the lower pitched strings.
They played out of tune.

But, more recently, as a solid body player and doing my own intonation
work, I can go to the 15th fret on the lower strings with acceptable
intonation. Well, maybe not the 6th string so much, but I do use the C on
the 5th string for a few things.

Maybe some of the problem is a tendency for the !ngerboard to tilt up

gradually after the neck meets the body. At least, I've seen that on several
guitars.

I can't say the out of tuneness is something I've really noticed on my

instruments. Moreno plays a very expensive high end instrument so
it's possible his sense of intonation is more picky than mine.

I do dig what he's saying about the mushiness of the upper positions
though. Tonally it's di#erent and lower positions have more tension to
them. Also makes it a bit easier to articulate in lower positions.

Of course many players play low strings in high positions and sound
great doing it, but it's something to think about

Last edited by christianm77; 08-21-2017 at 06:58 AM.

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