Biggest Negotiation Challenge 2021-1-18 Day 1 - UNOFFICIAL NOTES - NOT 100% ACCURATE

Biggest Negotiation Challenge 2021-1-18 Day 1 -
UNOFFICIAL NOTES – NOT 100% ACCURATE

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00:01
Welcome, everyone. Welcome on behalf of the Black Swan team, we are here today I'm Chris Voss.
This is a black swan group, team instruction, strongest group of negotiating instructors on Earth. Allow
me to introduce you if you don't already know the co author of never split the difference. President of
Black Swan group, Brandon Voss, morning, Brandon.
00:24
Good morning. Good morning. Happy to be here. Happy everyone else's here. And by the way, while
I'm while I got the mic, as it were, you guys have all done a great job contributing to the Facebook
group, throwing in questions, throwing in stories, introducing yourself to everyone telling us where you
hail from what time zones you're in. wins and successes, clarity issues.
00:54
I mean, you guys have been flooding the group with great, great content, a lot of stuff for us to digest
and go through we obviously haven't gotten to everyone. But you know, we've been throwing in some
likes and some additional comments. So we just really appreciate that. Keep it up throughout the week,
Greg, we're obviously going to continue to be making announcements through the Facebook group and
different videos we're posting there to kind of give you a heads up on what to expect moving forward.
01:23
And so with that said, Brad, I'll go ahead and I'll introduce the rest of the team if you're if you were with
us last night during our live or you got a chance to watch the live post on the Facebook group. You
know a little bit about us but just to give some more insight. Right Chris myself, you guys know who we
are.
01:41
Biggest Negotiation Challenge 2021-1-18 Day 1 -UNOFFICIAL NOTES - NOT 100% ACCURATE -1-
We got Derek on with us today. We got Sandy behind with us today. We got Troy Smith with us today.
All of which are actually former crisis negotiators on the local law enforcement side. Troy's hailing from
San Antonio, Texas, both Derek and Sandy worked side by side at the Alexandria Virginia Police
Department ran that department for many years. And even behind the scenes, we got a lot of stuff
going on. We got all hands on deck internally here for Black Swan.
02:14
So behind the scenes we got Davey Johnson, Chelsea wine, you know, our Director of Operations, our
Director of Business Development, work in the chat. We got Elise Martin, Vanessa Bernal, J. stancil.
Jalen Tyner all in the background working on stuff is we're putting all this together. So we are fully
engaged. we've thrown our entire team at this challenge. We are very excited about it.
02:40
Professor boss before I get into the agenda, anything more you want to add here.
02:46
No, I'm just I'm really excited about what we're doing this week. I mean, this is phenomenal stuff. We're
Today's the day we help you start to tap into the most valuable resource you have. Which is you.
03:00
And why the theme of preparing for the biggest negotiation of your life brand. And can I go ahead and
take the next step into what the biggest negotiation of your life is, you may your next negotiation, the
incredible resource that each and every one of you have is you. And we're going to help you tap into
that and tap into the incredible supercomputer that you are now one of the books that I've read, that we
use as a resource of Biology of Belief.
03:31
And why this is true, why you are your supercomputer is a statistic, we're going to help you tap into the
subconscious mind, which supports everything that you do in your conscious mind. Now, the biology of
the belief, belief is my source on this.
03:48
Bruce Lipton is the author, PhD cell biologist.
03:53
your conscious mind is capable of producing roughly 40 bits of environmental stimuli per second 40 bits
per second,
04:03
the supercomputer that each and every one of you has between your own ears, the supercomputer that
you woke up with today, the supercomputer that's processing data for you, underlying the conscious
mind the subconscious mind
04:20
that supercomputer processes, not 40 bits of information per second, 20 million is a 500,000 to one
ratio there.
04:36
With the negotiation skills with getting your repetitions in with the information we're going to share with
you today. You feeding the supercomputer, you're preparing yourself for the biggest negotiation of your
life which is your next one is huge. Draw your resources to bear on your performance and step into a
larger world.
04:57
Starting now Black Swan team is going to help you get in there. We're going to give you the tools, we're
going to give you the roadmap. Buckle up, baby, this is going to be awesome. All right back to you,
Brandon. No, that's, that's that's kind of a great intro into a lot of the content we're going to be doing
today and throughout the rest of the week. And so, in a second, I'm going to give a little insight on the
agenda.
05:22
But before I do, just to piggyback on what Chris was just laying out there, one of the things that we want
to help majority of you get to, especially by the end of the week, is getting beyond using never split the
difference the book, as if, like it's a Spanish English translation dictionary, right? Like, oh, I've run into a
problem. And I got a response I didn't like, and it seems like a bit of an objection. And so what do I do?
And I flipped through it. Oh, how am I supposed to do that? Right? We shut the book and go back. And
how am I supposed to do that? And it's not, it's not so much that that's a bad thing. Right? That's not
necessarily what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, at the very at the very most, it's just tip of the iceberg,
right?
06:15
We want to get you from a Latin American country, and I got to use the bathroom and I will go done this
style. Vanya, right, or whatever it is, right. And okay, now I speak a little bit of Spanish, we want to get
you past that. We want you to fully engage in the process from end to end. Because the reality is, if
you've gotten really good at how am I supposed to do that, and you're waiting for the How am I
supposed to do that moment so that you can drop the skill in?
06:43
Unfortunately, you are missing a tremendous amount of information opportunities, opportunity and
engagement in the process, management of emotions all the above, prior to how am I supposed to do?
And then in addition, how am I supposed to do that as a bargaining technique? And the really, really
good negotiators that are executing tactical empathy at its highest level, engage in the process in a way
that makes bargaining disappear.
07:13
Imagine negotiating at a high enough level where you never have to say I How am I supposed to do
that again, because you're never going to find yourself backed into a corner where you feel like you
need to use it. And so that's a big part of one of the things we want to get across as we get through the
week. So agenda wise, today, we're focusing on mindset. It's a big part of today, mindset. And also,
what are the foundational tools behind this entire tactical empathy approach.
07:46
We want to get you ready for your next biggest negotiation of your life with as as Chris mentioned, is
going to be the next negotiation you have.
07:55
And a quick example of that is and this actually came from, I don't know if anybody's familiar with the
name, Pedro, Adao. Pedro is a great friend of ours. He's also one of the people or the person that
introduced us to this challenge idea. And one of the things that he threw out, we were discussing this
biggest negotiation aspect. And he's like, you know, there's lots of couples out there that are happily
married now that have a bunch of kids and maybe even grandkids at this point. And when they first
met, it's highly likely that the woman said to the man, this is never going to work. You're never going to
be with me, right? You might as well stop trying because right, this isn't going to happen.
08:39
And now, years later, they're happily married. And so the point is, in that moment, for that guy and that
woman, it seemed like a very minimal negotiation, probably not very much at stake at all. And the
reality is the ripple effects of those conversations, create a new life, and a family tree that would not
have come about otherwise. And so no matter how big or small you think a negotiation is, there are
always going to be ripple effects that affect your future, even if it's a one off.
09:16
Because the chances that you run into someone that knows someone or runs into somebody else that
you know, it's like, Hey, I talked to Brandon, and we had to show him negotiation, but he was a real
jerk. Right? How many more people are gonna find out about that and then have their defenses up
when they talk to me because they heard through the grapevine that I was really hard to deal with.
Right? And so, the next negotiation is always the biggest one. Tactical empathy is the key.
09:42
We like to say that there is no silver bullet there is no magical fairy dust as it were. The reality is the
tactical empathy application is the silver bullet. And the thing is, it isn't just a one shot deal, right? We
got to engage The whole time and so puts our EQ on steroids. We need to verbalize but more
specifically, the definition behind it is calibrated application of emotional intelligence.
10:16
And so put ourselves in a place where we're constantly managing the motivations, dynamics and
perceptions of the counterparts that we deal with. And if I could jump in, we're going to tell you exactly
based on how neuroscience is wired. How you know what to calibrate. It's not just calibrated, we're
gonna give you the high percentage calibrations before you even walk in the door. What is the version
that makes you smarter? What's the calibration that's a 90% anticipation for on the other side, we'll get
ready to get into right that right now we Brandon, with caviar, and Dr. Gone.
10:59
Exactly right. And so and another kind of thing, just an agenda item. So today, more general sense
around foundational skills, mindset to make sure because mindset is the biggest part of making sure
you don't get caught off guard. Right, if we go in expecting certain things to happen, as opposed to
hoping that they do or don't, we're much more mentally prepared when they do because we expected it.
11:23
And so in addition to that, tomorrow, we're going to be focusing on negotiator type. I'll talk about that a
little bit more at the end. But applying the skills specific to negotiator personality categories, as it were,
Wednesday, Thursday, we're actually going to have two interviews we got we got some big people
coming on with us and some very high level executives, Wednesday, we actually have a power couple,
couple named yond, and mercy. They're absolutely wonderful. They've been friends of ours for a long
time, I think, even came to like our first event that we ever did in New York City years and years ago.
12:05
And we've been keeping in touch ever since the chance to hear from them on Wednesday. Thursday,
we're going to hear from a guy by the name of Eric sheets, who was a high level executive at Amazon,
and then decided to go to Google after that, in the midst of working for these two giant conglomerates
managed to come across our book, we become friends with him as well. He's cutting multimillion dollar
deals using our stuff, we're getting a chance to hear about it directly from the horse's mouth. And then
on Friday, Fridays are big wrap up.
12:41
And one of one of our focus points for Friday is if you haven't seen a negotiation once she will make
sure you have it before the week is out, don't worry. But we're going to spend some time working
specifically with that tool. So you know how to use it quickly when you're out in the real world. And then
tying everything together. Right. That's that's that's where we're going as we're working our way
through the week. And so with all that said, mindset, caviar. caviar is actually one of the things that Dr.
Derrick Gaunt has come up with as he's worked with us as head of content.
13:17
And we've grown to somewhat live by it. And so with that, said, Dr. gaunt, what should the group know
about caviar? What do you what do you want the group to understand about this mindset shift this
approach? Yeah, it should be the first. One of the first things you do in your preparation, right? Getting
your mind, right, getting your mind prepared to go into a difficult conversation, a tough conversation, if
you will.
13:49
Because that, in essence is all negotiations is a tough conversation.And so keeping in mind this
acronym, you know it, acronym, I, Derek loves acronyms. There's no getting around that I'm out, I come
out of a law enforcement space. And we dumb things down in law enforcement to make them easier to
remember. And so, acronyms are a way that we do that effectively.
14:17
So, caviar,getting your mind right, the sea and caviar stands for curiosity.
14:26
This should be your frame of mind going into the conversation, you have to assume that you have
something to learn there are you're going to have done research, you may have had previous contact
with the person that you're dealing with. But there are things going on with them that you don't know
about that you will only uncover in the midst of the conversation.
14:49
So go in with a curious mindset.Understand that the other side is holding on to information, information.
That's important blockinformation that information that is not yet recognized by your counterpart is
being important to you or guarded information, information that they are intentionally keeping from you.
15:12
Staying curious, keeps you on that path of Guided Discovery.
15:19
The alien cat Yep, yeah. I, you know, and I love this so much. If you allow me there's, there's, there's a
comment I'd like to add on to this one, please. I'd so curiosity. I'm here to tell you, we're here to tell you.
We'll give you a shield of an emotional and vulnerability. Let me give you an example of how
ridiculously insanely powerful an actual curious mindset is.
15:50
One of our colleagues, one of our friends, one of the people we greatly admire, Darrell Davis, who is
Darrell Davis. Darrell Davis is the black musician that talks Klansmen in the quitting the Klan.
16:07
I had a conversation with Darrell about how do you do this because he engages with people and and
he was a he was a musician. He started playing with Chuck Berry. He's telling me the story, you know,
he's playing a gig someplace. And his white dude comes up to him and says, You know, I really like
your music. But But he basically says, but I'm a racist member clan. So well, I love your music. But I
hate you. That Darrell engages with these people, in a sense of curiosity, what he told me?
16:37
And how do you engage with someone who stated dedication is to Lynch you without getting upset?
16:47
And how do you talk them out of their position? How do you get them out of their position? And Darrell
says, You know, I grew up overseas, you know, I was child of the Air Force, I grew up all over the
world, I just, I just treated them as if they were from a different culture, I was just genuinely curious as
to where they were coming from. There, if you can remain emotionally invulnerable, in the face of that
kind of conversation with curiosity is a hack. Imagine the power the genuine curiosity gives you under
all circumstances. That's battle tested.
17:21
When I was an FBI hostage negotiator. The guy from Al Qaeda on the other side wasn't dedicated to
killing me personally, I never had to put up with the kind of stuff that Darrell Davis has put up with. I
have no idea what that's like, all I know, is with a curious mindset. It armed him to be able to engage in
these conversations, and do not underestimate the insane shield of protection that curiosity gives you.
17:54
All right, Doug, back to you. Thank you for allowing me to, certainly, certainly.
17:57
So to wrap up, curiosity,focus on the motivation.You should be asking yourself,why did she just say
that?
18:13
Why did he just do that? We get so wrapped around the axle, behind the statement, or the question, or
the behavior, that we fail to look at where it's coming from.
18:27
Because people make statements that they don't really mean they make statements that that cloak an
underlying message.
18:36
In every difficult tough conversation negotiation, there's going to be a presenting dynamic or emotion
and there's going to be a latent dynamic or emotion. And as long as you stay curious, you're going to
put yourself in a better spot to find that latent, dynamic or emotion. It's easy for us to appreciate
recognize and appreciate the presenting dynamic, it's much harder to go after that latent dynamic. It's
harder because we are resistant.
19:03
Chris, talk to you about the 40 20 million bits of information ratio.
19:11
Your subconscious is going to tell you exactly what the latent dynamic is, if you're willing to listen.
19:23
Acceptance, the the first a and caviar it's a tough conversation. You need to accept the fact that you are
going to be attacked at some point during the conversation.
19:36
The attack is not going to make sense. It's going to come out of left field and it's going to it's going to it's
going to surprise you when it first hit. Know for a fact that it's going to happen. If you are in a tough
conversation. If you are in a negotiation.
19:55
There are going to be those negative dynamics and emotions present which will cause the other side to
be guarded, to be defensive, and then to be offensive?
20:09
Because they're trying to protect themselves emotionally. And it's going to come at your expense.
20:17
So go in knowing that I have a question for you here, Dad, I know you're on the off here. But you have
a really interesting point about attack. And so just to throw this at you, I mean, would you would you
say, more often than not? And I realized this is yes, oriented. So please forgive me. But would you say
more often than not, when people are attacking us in negotiation, it's actually in an attempt to protect
themselves? Well see, it's interesting that you say that the attack is, is sourced one of three ways
20:52
the attack
20:54
is it's part protection, but the attack is also them telling you, you're not getting something.
21:04
You don't get it.
21:07
The other reason they attack you is they think you're not listening, you get into a conversation with
anybody and they start to raise their voice, why are they raising their voice? That's the physical
manifestation of you not understanding where they're coming from. And the third reason that you will
get attacked in these conversations is they're trying to manipulate you and your challenges.
21:29
Figure out which one it is, you can't move on in the conversation till you figure out what is driving the
attack? Are they trying to manipulate you? What are you missing? What are you not?
21:42
Here, they're telling you that they're under tremendous pressure on their side of the table, and you're
not picking it up. And that the attack becomes more and more intense, more and more frequent. And
the, the the default reaction for most of us, when we broach a portion of the conversation, and they lash
out at us, is to pivot off of that and go somewhere else, as if that's going to take care of the problem.
No, you have to stay in the moment.
22:11
Figure out where it's coming from, because it's not going to go away. It's going to rear its ugly head
once again, in the conversation, because you haven't dealt with it in the moment.
22:22
Yeah, I think that's an important point, too. I mean, you got you got to stay in the moment, you got to
dig into it. I mean, I see I see some of the questions that are coming up in a private chat about
separating emotions from the conversation. So you know, you're not separating emotions, you're
making them part of the conversation. You're you dig, you dig in more deeply to it. And the three
reasons for attack is exactly what just there. They're just laid out there. All right, so we're calibrating for
you in advance. What are the three possible reasons for their attack? We were giving you the cheat
codes, if you will. So then you begin get curious as to which one it is.
23:03
This is how we begin to pull these things in together. So they loop in and begin to multiply each other.
Give you a curiosity we've given you we calibrated with it, where the attacks coming from, be genuinely
curious about which one it is. probe into it.
23:21
All right. And, and Sandy's and Brandon will talk a little bit more about the end nine as we push on. But
I wanted to address Karen what Aaron asked. And that is, what if you're curious.
23:35
And they play their cards close to the vest. Again.
23:40
Don't get caught up in what they're doing. Find out why they're doing it. Somebody who plays their
cards close to the vest. What is that person telling you?
23:52
Somebody who gives you one word? Yes, no answers. What does that person telling you? Somebody
who's playing their cards close to the vest does not trust you. And I don't care what space you find
yourself in. All of you were in the trust business.
24:10
And if you want to give an example, I know it would bleed over into the night a little bit, but I think we're
going to be okay with that. If you want to give an example of what skill, potentially and label are
calibrated questions that would address exactly what you brought up. Why are they saying this? Why
do they feel that way? Please feel free to do so I think the group would probably appreciate simply, you
seem guarded. It seems like I've done something to damage our relationship
24:42
is it's as simple or as complex as that. Playing it close to the vest means they don't trust you, Karen.
And your job is to figure out where that's coming from. You can even go so far as an iMessage. When
you continue to shut me out, I feel frustrated because it prevents any meaningful dialogue from taking
place.
25:11
Karen is likely not your fault that they don't trust you.
25:18
It's not the issue.What baggage do they carry forward? Chances are somebody betrayed him in the
past, that just gave you an example.
25:31
Here's another label sounds like somebody betrayed you in the past. So we use these labelled skills to
get back into curiosity and start taking, start taking emotionally intelligent guesses. And what Derek was
talking about, before a moment ago, the underlying dynamics over the presenting emotions, right, and,
and it's not, you know, you're not, you're not going to have that magic bullet, we're looking for the
cumulative effects of all of these skills.
26:05
So it's not going to be a simple pivot, and then they open up, it's huge, it's, you're gonna, you're gonna
have to chip away at it. This is not, this is not a two minute drill, this is something that's going to take
some time for you to do. Most of us are impatient. And that's why most of us don't listen to that level.
But at the end of the day, the other side wants you to understand what they're going through what the
lay of the land looks like from their perspective.
26:30
And so Karen, you're gonna have to stay in that moment. And just chip away using one of the skills on
the right hand side of the screen.
26:43
Venting. Find a trusted comrade, find a significant other, find somebody who's detached from the
situation that you can sit with.
26:59
And dump your bucket. Talk to them about the good, the bad, and the ugly of the upcoming
conversation, the more you get rid of before you get into the room or get on the call, the less likely any
of the negative emotions on your side of the table will rise to the surface.
27:22
Before I move, before I continue with venting, tough conversations. How do you know you're in one, if I
want or I need are in your head or in the head of your counterparts? It's going to be a tough
conversation. And as we just mentioned, you're going to be attacked?
27:39
How do you keep yourself from being triggered? Curiosityand negative emotions can't coexist. You
can't be angry and curious at the same time, which is why we started off with curiosity.
27:56
Your brain doesn't work like that, you're either going to be curious, or you're going to be angry. The only
thing that you have complete control over in those tough conversations are your own emotions. And
Biggest Negotiation Challenge 2021-1-18 Day 1 -UNOFFICIAL NOTES - NOT 100% ACCURATE - 10 -
one of the hacks to maintaining a level head is staying curious, accepting the fact that you're going to
get attacked, no one is going to come and then venting about everything, all the blemishes and warts of
the conversation.
28:28
Doing so before you get into the room minimizes the chances that it's going to happen on the call or
during the conversation.
28:39
So when you vent that you're telling people when they get ready, they need to go find somebody not
involved in the situation. And who will consequently not be triggered by when they blow off steam and
go out there and blow off some steam. So to clear the carbon out of the cylinders. That's what you're
telling them to do. Exactly.
29:00
And one of the other things that's important is being able to label your own emotions in the moment.
This is kind of a going off on a side path here.But Chris,speak to the importance of self labeling.
29:23
Yeah, I mean, that is that is another phenomenal skill. First of all, when you're self labeling you do and
especially the negative emotions, you're diffusing them on yourself. The original brain science
experiment just had people self labeling negative emotions. They've got people in a functional magnetic
resonance imaging device where the watching the electrical activity in somebody's brain.
29:46
Neuroscientists have identified the portions of the amygdala that negative emotions are high. They
know it's three quarters of the amygdala. They show these people photos that induce negative
emotions, they can ...Could be a photo of a puppy and rain you know, any anything that makes him feel
sad, angry, lonely, upset, whatever it is didn't matter. They showed the preacher the people the photo,
they watched a megillah light up and the negative areas and all they did was say, ask people what are
you feeling now just had the person self label every single time they self labeled the electrical activity in
the negative portion of the megillah diminish, not some of the time not 50% of the time, every time.
30:33
The self labeling process calms you down. If you're angry samahang if you're scared, if you concern
say I'm scared, I'm concerned, I get to taste something when I feel concerned. I overlaid with that. I'll
say I'm scared, I'm scared. I'm scared. And then by the third or fourth time I say it to myself. That's
good. I'm not scared anymore. I've self labeled it away. One more hack on this is this is also known as
negative emotion differentiation, and Ed net yourself. The more different synonyms you come up with,
for your own negative emotions.
31:15
Not only do you dial them down in your own mind, it increases your emotional intelligence. It increases
your ability to pick up and defuse the negativity on the other side. It's a phenomenal exercise to put
yourself through makes yourself smarter. Every moment you do it makes you more prepared to deal
with the biggest negotiation of your life, which is your very next negotiation.
31:47
Very well.
31:50
All right, thanks, Chris. Um, the iron caviar, identify identification identifyto the best of your ability. What
the other side's negotiation personality type is. Within the Black Swan method. There are three types.
32:11
assertive,analyst, accommodating. Who are you dealing with? Which one are you?
32:19
Each one of those personality types has somethingthat they value more importantly than coming to an
agreement with you making a deal with you.
32:31
For the assertive it's to be heard and respected for the analyst. Its data and information and for the
accommodator. It's the relationship in the moment.
32:44
It's the relationship in the moment. Now, if I asked you to identify for me which one of those three types
is the most problematic? The majority of you would say, the assertive.The reality is the accommodator
is the most problematicbecause they're worried about the relationship in the moment. And they'll walk
you up to the edge of a minefield and not tell you it's a minefield, because they want to keep you happy
in the moment.
33:16
Knowing that you're about to get blown up.And so, understanding which one they are, which one you
are, will tell you how you need tomodify your conduct when you engage them.
33:35
The assertive wants to be heard and respected. For me, they're the easiest to deal with, because I let
them run the conversation.
33:42
As long as my mouth is shut, I'm gathering data.The analyst I know that analysts don't like to be
peppered with questions, they over prepare.
33:54
And they need time. The accommodator I know that the accommodator is probably going to give me a
false Yes, multiple times in the conversation and I'm going to have to really work hard at getting great
implementation information from them before I get up from the table or hang up the phone.
34:15
So identify which one you are which one they are, and you'll know which camp you need to borrow from
in order to round yourself out.
34:24
Chris Brandon, anything further on theidentification of the types
34:28
Nothing specific for identification but when you're done I got I want to add some just kind of overall
thoughts but nothing specific to identify at the moment.
34:37
Yeah, and I and I want to add something on the accommodator because, you know, this is this is really
counterintuitive thing, especially with accommodators because their comedies are focused so much on
making sure we're happy in the moment. If you give a false Yes, how's the other side not going to find
out about it being a false Yes, it's inevitable that it's going to be a problem, but accommodators really
focused on it.
35:00
Happiness in the moment and, you know, I'm not a natural born accommodator. I don't know what's
going through their mind. But, you know, train could become an acci, where they figured the trains
gonna hit you anyway, they want you to be happy, right up till this moment.
35:12
So it's kind of crazy the way that works out. But it's none of this is meant to be accusatory on anybody.
It's meant for genuine understanding of how the problems in a moment are going to crop up so that you
can navigate those problems. Because yes, we are very focused on long term relationships with we
need people to not get hit by trains, because you can have a long term relationship with somebody got
hit by a train.
35:39
Yeah. So the double A accusations on it. The negative opinions, assumptions and impressions that the
other side has about you, I don't care how long the relationship has been. I don't care if it's a five
second relationship, or five year relationship. If you are in a tough conversation where I want or I need
or in your head or in the head of your counterpart, they will have negative opinions, assumptions and
impressions about you about who you represent and about the conversation.
36:12
It's imperative that you get out in front of you come to me as a coaching client, we start to strategize for
your next call.
36:21
I'm going to tell you, we're starting the car call off with accusations on it, which is again, counterintuitive
for most, because you are taking a negative light and pointing it back at yourself. And that's going to
make you feel uncomfortable. And when you're uncomfortable. What you want to do quicker than
anything else is to get comfortable again,ASAP, which is going to drive you to truncate your
accusations audit list. I'm telling you now I've seen it multiple times, you come to me as a coaching
client, I'm going to give you my best advice, but you are the ultimate arbiter as to what comes out of
your mouth.
37:04
When you get on the phone with your counterpart. You choose to truncate your accusations audit list,
you're going to pay for it. I had a guy who was trying to renegotiate percentage points with his
partner,he came up with a list of seven, which is pretty weak.
37:24
Out of those, even though they she came up with just seven, he thought it was overkill.
37:31
And he took two of them off the list because he said I don't need to say those. And the two that he took
off the list are the two that he she obliterated him with at the end of the conversation and result, no
agreement.
37:46
Put together a robust list, you're going to feel like you're going too far. The reality is, you probably
probably are not going far enough. We were on these exercises. During our our live events.
38:02
Where we have two sides, we give them two sides of a scenario and have them come up with
accusations audits about the other side. And side A will come up with 15 great accusations audits.
38:16
And side B comes up with eight more that they didn't say that they should have said that they were
looking for. So you're going to feel like you're going overboard. But you're not, you're probably not going
far enough.
38:34
Now, when you do it, the industry places that they go at the beginning of the conversation right before
you you guys start to engage in the substance.
38:45
Right before you make an ask, or any time during the conversation, you're going to share bad news
with the other side news that they're not going to want to hear.
38:55
Set it up with an accusation saw that if it's nothing more than you're not going to like when I'm about to
say you're going to think that I'm trying to impose my will, that I don't have a good appreciation on the
future of the market.
39:11
And I'm just being greedy. And you let it sit 1001 1002 1003 and then you make your ask or you share
your bad news. But in preparation, make a robust list, write it outand be mentally prepared to hit
everyone on their list on your list. Now the reality is you probably won't get through it. The reality is
they're probably going to stop you and say, Hey, I wasn't thinking those things, or B.
39:45
I got other things to do. Let's get down to brass tacks. Either way, you're in a good spot because the
conversation shifts in the direction that you want it to go. And it's not your idea and it plays into that idea
of going into these conversations, you need to go in subordinating yourself and deferring to the other
side.
40:08
Brandon, Chris, anything on anything further on accusations audits?
40:11
Well, not not specifically for me. But I realized so far we got two other people here that I know have
thoughts to share.
40:18
Now one of these people on our team that hasn't spoken up yet, I realized is just there, because they
are another pretty face and the other person is a really deep thinker. And so I'll ask from the deep
thinker first, Sandy.
40:38
Okay, what is your there's so many things I can address. I want to say there was something that came
up in the chat about how you deal with these things. As a woman, you use the skills just like everyone
else uses the skills, there are certain things that come up for women that are kind of dependent upon
the situation that they're in.
40:56
One of the big ones is personality type. And dealing with your type and the person that you're with.
Sometimes that can be a little tricky for women. And tone of voice tone of voice is something that that
women can struggle with quite a bit.
41:09
But as far as using the actual skills, you pretty much use the skills the same. And I want to say if it's
okay, Brandon to just complete the negotiation, nine are those nine core skills of the Black Swan
method that we use to achieve that calibrated application.
41:29
Okay, so once you have a grasp of the skills, you can go forth, and create or achieve this tactical
empathy. And that will lead to a trust based influence, which is what you're going for. So those nine
skills, it's imperative that you have an understanding of those skills and how to use them. That will help
with the curiosity that will help with the acceptance. It actually helps you with everything that you do in
caviar, and everything that you do in the actual negotiation when you're moving forward. But those
skills are extremely important that you have those down.
42:04
I guess I'm up next to pretty face. Everybody need glasses? No. So I tell you, I love these guys,
because they've taught me so much just coming on on the team, actually. And one of the questions
was about the accusation audit. And I spend a lot of time listening to each one of these individuals that
teach and do one on ones. And the accusation audit, Derek couldn't have said it any better when he
said that.
42:35
You tried not to be hard on yourself. So you don't want to really do it. And one of the questions was, do
you do it all at once? Or do you do one and wait for them to either shoot it down? Or tell you how unfair
you are? Or do you keep going? The toughest thing in the world, like I said, is to be hard on yourself.
But once you do it, and you realize that you've knocked all those things out of the way, gotten them out
of the way so you can genuinely have a conversation with somebody. You'll appreciate having the
accusation audits. I know it was the toughest thing for me to be able to say all the negative things that I
thought people were thinking about me.
43:14
But once you do it, you realize that the conversations start to flow better, your mind gets a little easier,
you're not so worried about what they're thinking about you. You're able to go forward with where you
really want to go into conversation. Also with Sandy I love I love being a part of the negotiations nine
Brandon said it at the very top of the hour. That is part of the foundation to caviar and negotiation night
they are they say the foundation of what we do. If you can't get through these First, you want to have a
tough time.
43:42
Because some of the people that have come on they've talked about reading the book, we read the
book, but after we went through the negotiation nine we got a better understanding of what they meant.
And we appreciate it.
43:54
Derek, if you allow me I'd like to jump back in one more time. Because we get the question that most
people fear is how does how does bringing up the negative not planning negative doesn't exist. And
this is this is this is crazy. This is one of the phenomenal magic tricks here. And here's why it doesn't
plan a negative. First of all, it's an inoculation. It immunizes you from negatives. Now, if you bring up a
negative that's not there, the person doesn't go Oh, well, I didn't think of that. Thanks for bringing it up.
Now I do. If you bring up a negative that's not there, you're wrong and may correct you.
44:36
And we all know in our daily lives, how much people love to correct you. So they get overwhelmed by
the phenomenal hit of dopamine that they get the sensation of correcting and as you all know, people
don't remember what you said. They remember how you made them feel in a moment and they think
45:00
Phenomenal when they corrected you they go, No, no, no, that's not it. So this corrective action, not
only makes them feel fantastic about you being wrong, which strengthens your relationship, because
when they correct you, they're helping you. on our end, it's embarrassing to be corrected, but it's not
about you, it's about them. And when they correct you, they're helping you. Plus they've denied that it's
true.
45:29
So they build up a wall from allowing it to happen. It's one of the great corrections, one of the great
magic tricks, which is why we want you to overdo your accusations on it. If you're not laying it on thick,
you're not laying it on thick enough, because you build up this great inoculation and increase the
relationship at the same time. It's a phenomenal mode. All right, Derek, thanks for allowing me to jump
in.
46:00
I actually want to add something to that too, because this question around the accusations on it comes
up all the time. And I'll preface it by saying once you've mastered the accusations on it, I would call it
the closest thing to a Jedi mind trick. In communication that exists. I mean, just straight, these are not
the droids you're looking for, right? It's the closest thing to it, at least that I've discovered up to this point
in my young life, right.
46:25
But there's a clear distinction between using the accusations are added to address a negative that's
probably in their mind, versus using the accusations on it to admit something negative about yourself.
And I think that's where people get really caught up because we want to lay out negatives that pertain
to us. And so it's like, oh, my God, I have to admit all of these things that are potentially terrible.
46:57
And accusations, oh, it is not about admission of anything on our side. For all intents and purposes, it
almost has nothing to do with us because it's completely based on what their mindset is. And so
example of this, you know, you're probably worried about whether or not you want to do business with
us, because our revenues are down, and we just fired 50 people and we replaced an executive.
47:26
That's an admission of things that are happening internally. Versus you're probably worried about this
contract because new companies make you nervous.
47:39
That's addressing a negative, and it's in their head about our general situation. And so that's the thing,
right? We're about planting negatives when we're admitting something that's bad about us. And that's
not what the audit is, the audit is verbally addressing negative things that are in the other side's head.
And chances are, it's probably going to be irrational. And so to Derek's point from earlier, don't try to
make sense of something that's irrational. Just simply verbalize it, bring it to the forefront by saying you
probably think this. And so that's just that's one of the distinctions I just wanted to make real quick.
Yeah, and going back to Chris's point on correction.
48:26
The correction feels so good. To the other side, that people can't wait to tell you how stupid you are.
48:33
People can't wait to tell you what you don't know. And the correction feels so good. They're going to
give you information that ultimately compromises their size.
48:45
Because and, and and and the dopamine clouds their thinking and they start and they will provide you
more truthful information, not only you're going to get more information in the correction, but it's going to
be more truthful, more candid information. And they won't have any regrets for sharing that either. Will
they there? No, not at all. regret not at all because it feels so good to tell you hey, dummy, you got it
wrong.
49:11
The desire to correct is irresistible. It's one of the laws of negotiation gravity. Finally, there are and
caviar is just simply remember, your counterpart is not the issue.
49:24
Whatever the problem is, is the issue. You need to keep the mindset of turning your counterpart into a
teammate. In a problem solving venture. you adopt this prep model of caviar.
49:46
It will dramatically change the way you approach the conversation and the way you feel during the
conversation and caviar is supported.
50:01
By the end not.
50:05
Back to you, Brandon.
50:07
That's great. There's no thank you very much. And so caviar in the end nine work very much hand in
hand together, you know, the metaphor that I like to use yours as we're trying to work our way to the
expert level, right? Is I'm a movie buff. And I imagine that a lot of people in here probably at least seen
or at least heard of the movie The Matrix, right? If you don't know the matrix is a movie came out, but
even at 99 star count on Reeves and it was about the world is a facade this fake environment that was
created for us, actually, by AI technology.
50:45
And there's a different world outside of the one we see every day, right? I won't go into the details of it.
But there are bad guys in this movie called the agents, the agents track down people like Keanu
Reeves, that know about the false world in the real world. And they try to kill them off so that the secret
stays under wraps as it were. But the point I'm getting to is, when Neal started to discover his power, he
instantly had the ability to dodge bullets.
51:13
And it was crazy, right? These dodging bullets that are being fired at him, shoot 100 bullets, Adam,
don't hit them once. Now the reality is many of you have gotten great at dodging the bullets, you're
really good at that you can shoot 100 bullets, and you won't get hit by a single one because you've got
them all. Now in the movie, if you remember, when Keanu Reeves fully tapped into his power, he no
longer was dodging bullets. He was stopping them in midair before they even got to him. He had the
ability to see the real world in the AI format, that it was not the facade.
51:53
Because he was thinking at a higher level, he was looking between the lines, and he was anticipating
and accepting problems were coming. And he went from being able to dodge bullets to be able to keep
them from even being fired out of a gun.
52:09
And that's what we want for you as you engage in the process, we want you to be able to stop the
bullet before it even comes at you. Not just worry about dodging it when it gets there. And so these
work hand in hand negotiation is a big part of it. A lot of you seen probably my posts on the on the
Facebook group labels is my favorite skill because of the versatility. Going back to something a
question that came earlier, what if you're dealing with someone who's plantings close to the vest
because they haven't they don't trust you. Another great example of a label to use is simply it seems
like I have yet to earn your trust.
52:46
Instead of figuring out how to dodge this, oh, he doesn't trust me, she doesn't trust me, let me figure out
how to dodge it. Step into stop it before it gets fired at you by simply labeling certain things. And so with
that said, something I want to add is probably seen a lot of emails that have been coming from us lately
about a big three day event that we got going on in about two weeks. That's not the focus of today, I
just figured you guys have seen the emails.
53:14
But really what I want to focus on is the end nine if you want to join us for that the end nine is
something you need to make sure that you're fluent in right two, three days, we actually won't be any
use to you if you don't have a really good grasp of how to do it on a message, what the different kinds
of calibrated questions are, what the different types of labels are all these things. And so Sandy and
Troy are actually teaching an N nine class we started teaching it last year. just so happens we have two
more scheduled for next week. One is on Tuesday. One is on Thursday. And Troy and Sandy are
teaching them both. And so Sandy, I'll go to you again here. Do you enjoy doing great things with this
class? What is one of the biggest things that you think people get out of the class or what you want
people to know when they go through this content?
54:04
I think from feedback that I've gotten one of the main things is that they understand each one of the
skills and how to actually properly use them because there is some confusion between paraphrase and
summary or about calibrated questions and how you how you, you know, set those up.
54:21
I think because they go through there, they get an idea of what tactical empathy is why we use those
nine skills to get there what each skill is and how to properly use it. And people who have left the class
have given us feedback that that makes perfect sense. Now, you get those nine skills when you read
the book, and you can see each one of those skills in the book. So this is the first time we've actually
taken them put them all together so that we can spoon feed them each skill and explain it to them. So I
think it just makes it very easy to soak those skills in when you hear them like that. each one's
specifically drawn out for them.
55:00
I think that's great. As you brought a lot of you're probably noticed, how am I supposed to do that are
the phases of No, are not on the N nine list. So if you're good with those skills, that's great. This is
something to be added to your repertoire. And so I'll try, I'll go to you here. I know you've been kind of
the wing, the wingman is a word to Sandy on these n nine classes.
55:22
And being the newest member of Black Swan, what would you say you've gotten out of Vietnam,
specifically, like for you personally, as an instructor, and as a negotiator,
55:31
going through the content on a regular basis, what I've gotten out of it is, having been out of
negotiations, hostage negotiations for as long as I had since 2001. You know, it took a while to get back
to the skill sets. And the labels and the mirrors made me realize how much how much they how much
weight they carry, when you can't remember something or you're talking to someone, you know, label it
out.
55:55
And Sandy would say that all the time, because all the questions that would come up, they would say,
Well, what do I do next? And she said, When in doubt, label it out. And then they start labeling. And
then they start mirroring again. And then the dynamic silence seems to throw everybody off, it seemed
like it's the easiest, but yet, it's the hardest, because we don't want to be quiet.
56:15
So I took those three skills, and I started working those back into my repertoire for just my everyday
use. And that started building me back up to where I need to be as an instructor. I think that's a great
point, because we constantly talk about how the skills are perishable, right? If we don't keep the blade
sharp, we will not stay sharp. And so even as I think that's crazy, even as a seasoned professional in
the hostage crisis negotiation world, you could tell that over the course of about, you know that the time
you had off, you got a little rusty yourself. And this gets you back up to speed very quickly.
56:51
And so I think, I think that's, that's a great point, right? We got, we got to make sure we got these clear.
How can we engage fully engaged in the process if we don't understand our nine foundational tools?
So that's great here, and I know, we're coming up on time, right, we got a few minutes left. My guess is
we'll probably go a little bit over. But actually, I want to throw it to you here, Professor, you know, we
had them go over the node, white paper.
57:20
And I think that also speaks directly to why we use the Mays picture pitcher metaphor so often, with
negotiation and being mentally prepared and being ready to use our tools. And so professor, if you
could just spend a couple of minutes talking about as we wrap up here, you know, why we use the
maze, and then how the information from know helps us navigate the maze better?
57:46
Yeah, well, as human beings, when we engage in an endeavor and a journey in a negotiation, whatever
we're navigating, you know, we like to in advance, imagine how long it's going to take what our end
goal objective is, and how we're going to get there. And we have a tendency to think of these things in
a straight line. Now, the issue is like the maze. I mean, we looked at this picture right here now, and
you can say, Yeah, well, you know, from a bird's eye view, I can tell what the beginning is, and notes.
It's not a straight line, you know, but I can zigzag my way through the maze, and I can get to the goal.
58:20
Well, you know, when you're in the maze, that's not how you see that baby. You've got to get into it.
And actually, there's no such thing as a dead end. There's just more information and use the
preparation, in advance, use a caviar model to get ready to go into the maze, be genuinely curious
about how it might turn out. You know, the difference between adventure and ordeal is attitude. And the
attitude shift is curiosity. So becomes an adventure. And then the realization is there's no such thing as
a dead end, there's only certainty.
58:57
You know, I don't know if this is going to work out for sure. If I if I bring this up, it might be a non starter,
therefore, I can't bring it up. No, bring it up and find out it's just more information, you need to know
where the dead ends are to find your way through the maze. While the shortest distance between two
points might be a straight line, it's not the quickest distance. It's not the distance that picks up the most
information. It's not the journey that's the most thorough to let you know that you got something better
than what you had in mind to begin with. Never be so sure what you want that you wouldn't take
something better. How do you get something better? You start with the caviar model. You remain
curious. And you realize that there's no such thing as a dead end. There's only more information.
59:54
I think that's great. Now, I think I think that's absolutely perfect. And I'll quote Danny Kahneman
1:00:00
His his This quote is actually part of the note paper too, I'm sure a lot of you saw it,people often fail to
act rationally, in the face of a complex decision.
1:00:17
for all intensive purposes, that's another definition of what negotiation is. And so, use your mindset, be
curious about why they're so irrational, as opposed to combative, right, or telling them that they're
wrong, except that they're going to be irrational, and they're going to attack you, except you're walking
into a maze.
1:00:39
Every time you negotiate, there isn't a straight line to the goal, you're entering a maze every time vent
to a trusted associate or friend about how stupid you think they are, so that you're not carrying that
emotional baggage in with you. And you may trip up and use a poor tone of voice, because you think
they're stupid, and we didn't get a chance to vent about it.
1:01:01
And so now it's coming out during the interaction, right, we can better understand their irrational or their
motivation. If we understand what their type is, their type is going to give us some insight as to why they
ended up there. If we know and prepared to focus on all this with accusations audit up front, it's always
easier to remember that that person is actually a counterpart that is a partner of ours as opposed to an
adversary.
1:01:29
So always expect to walk in, walk into the maze. Always Be prepared to deal with irrational thoughts,
motivations, and then lean on your nine plus skills to help you navigate every single second of that
interaction, instead of just waiting for a moment.
1:01:50
And so with that said, final thoughts, Professor, step into this now, tap into the supercomputer that you
brought to the table with you today. Start building your gut instinct. Start using the skills. We're going to
be back with you guys tomorrow.
1:02:12
Start to experiment and implement now. Give yourself the opportunity to be smarter and sharper
tomorrow than you are right now. We look forward to being back with you guys tomorrow. This is a
good session, soak it in and digest it.

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