Unknown 0:00

This is a download from BFM, 89.9. The business station

Unknown 0:13
is 507. You're listening to the evening edition with Lynne and Sharmila. And this hour. We're talking
about, in some ways a solution. Whether it is a true solution is another thing, but a solution that's been
proposed to bridge that digital gap that we've been talking about ad nauseum, right when it comes to
education, because we have seen the parent government, for example, planning to distribute 20,000
phones to students of the B 40. Group, through a program to help students prepare for exams this year.
Now, crucially, those phones are considered low quality, meaning that they're not able to, for example,
load games, if you were to play games on them, they are capacity, they just grind to a halt. That is what
we're seeing. So the idea here was to ensure that the students are using it for the appropriate reasons.
But I think that this has really opened up questions about what is even considered an appropriate
donation. You know, if you're going to make it in the spirit of students being able to learn

Unknown 1:13
it, right, because just to emphasize that low quality was intentional, it wasn't a we picked a phone. Oh, it
turns out to be low quality. No, sorry. It's a lemon. Yeah. No, they deliberately wanted to give students
phones of lower quality. And according to the chairman of education, higher learning and Human
Resources Committee, I might say the moment doubt he was quoted in harian. Metro is saying, as you
said, it's to prevent students from using it for things other than learning. But the reality is that a lot of the
learning that we do do these days, or not, we but the students do these days, do do require phones to
be able to do quite a bit and I don't know there's there's just a sense of missing the forest for the trees
with this whole initiative that seems to downplay whatever goodwill, the initial plan might have had.
Because, you know, firstly, this will involve 15,000 phones, it will be given mainly to this year's SPM
students. And the whole drive is supposed to be completed by July. And this will be followed by 5000
units being distributed through the district Education Office. Now, already, we are hearing of issues like
a phone catching on fire. This is through a different initiative that was under the jaringan Rohatyn
program. But similarly, because of low quality phones, we're also hearing complaints of phones not
being able to essentially do the things they're supposed to do to be able to log on to load programs that
they can use to study. So we all coming back to the question of why do something if you're not doing it
properly,

Unknown 2:45
just to say that while that was a different program, it is in fact, literally the same phone model, which is
why you can you know, draw that comparison. And, honestly, we are far gone from the days of our
indestructible handphones and playing snake. You know, if you think about what it is that students need
nowadays, if you think about the basic programs that you would need to run in order to be able to learn
and learn appropriately, then I think it's not so much about it's not so much about, say not accepting a
gesture of goodwill, right? as some people have said that, you know, if Look, if you can't afford a phone,
we give you a phone, why are you complaining? I think the issue is if you give a phone for a specific
purpose, is the phone actually able to accomplish that purpose? Because in this instance, I think we do
have to think about how long it is that students are expected to use these phones for, for how many
hours in a day, what kinds of things are they expected to be able to do. And if you look at the capacity
of the phone, it's a five inch screen, which, for watching videos, or being able to see text, I think would
be a little bit of a challenge. It has one gigabyte of RAM, eight gigabytes of internal storage, it's got a
very small replaceable battery. So I think we need to look into this issue of safety of use, you know,
whether it is in fact the right thing to use, and also sustainability, how often are you going to be giving
out news, new phones, when these ones run out of battery or catch on fire?

Unknown 4:16
And I think this points to a larger issue with the question of providing aid or helping communities that
need help, right, because I just wanted to read this quote from the parent mandriva, Ronnie
Muhammad, and he said if people want to give us arms when we're in difficult times, we should expect
accepted and not demand this and that if people give us sardines, we eat sardines, let us not say we
want to eat chicken. The thing is this. To me, this is the problem with a lot of aid programs that don't
look at the communities that they're helping as people as people with diverse needs and as actually
being able to think for themselves. It's a very top down approach to quote unquote, charity. It's a very,
almost it's a patronizing way. of doing these things. Why assume that students, especially students who
aren't at SPM level may not be able to make better choices for themselves?

Unknown 5:09
Yes. And also, what about games for learning? You know, so so you're making a blanket assumption
not just about students, but also about games. It's not necessarily thinking about how students actually
go to school now what it is that they actually use to learn now it's very old fashioned aside from being
top down. So we are looking today at a program or, you know, the program that we're talking about is in
para, admittedly, but there are others with similar initiatives right of distributing phones, to students of
the lower income group, that alone is a good thing. The issue is that the phones are of low quality and
low quality on purpose. So we want to know what you think what do you make of the program and also,
I guess the spirit in which these phones are being given right? Can we maybe think differently about
how it is that we're donating things? You can let us know? Call us double seven double 329 100
WhatsApp 018789 double eight double nine tweet us at B FM radio after this. We will be speaking with
Koga Lavanya Mooney, Andy who is the founder of good kids Malaysia. Keep it here on the evening
edition BFM 89.9.

Unknown 6:20
Building fit Malaysians by Fm 89.9.

Unknown 6:27
It is 515 and you're listening to the evening edition with linen Sharmila. We're talking today about
donating phones to students of the lower income group a good thing. The bad part is that the phones
are of intentional low quality to ensure that students will not be able to for example, run apps or games
on them use them exclusively for learning. They have however, come with their fair share of problems
as you would expect from something being deemed low quality. So we want to know what you think as
well as perhaps your thoughts on the spirit in which we donate things right like why it is that we might
not want to donate bones are items of higher quality to people who are in need. You can let us know
your thoughts call us double seven double 329 100 WhatsApp 018789 double eight double nine, tweet
us at B FM radio. Joining us now is Coachella Vani, Mooney and D who is the founder of good kids,
Malaysia. Kogi, thank you so much for speaking with us.

Unknown 7:24
Hi, thank you so much for having me. Am I speaking to shamima? Or both?

Unknown 7:29
Yes, both of us. That was Lynn. But yeah, now it's everybody. So I wanted to know what your initial
impressions were of this initiative?

Unknown 7:40
Well, when I first saw the news, I was wondering ways to tag teams from this organization for the
government who's actually looking into this whole project. Because definitely, you will need someone
from the technology side to do the need assessment, what escapes me and what kind of technology
that they actually need, and what devices that we are providing these devices actually compatible with
what they need. And match that with a budget that we have, from what I saw it was about 2.7 1 million
ringgit, and that money can actually be used to bring effective and sustainable solution instead of just
looking for what is available now in the market. And let's just use that to the students.

Unknown 8:25
So as we know, phones and laptops have become quite central to learning over the last year. Now as a
baseline, what level of technology is required for a smooth learning experience? I mean, in simple fact,
what should these devices be able to do?
Unknown 8:43
Well, okay, let's just use an analogy. between buying a new winery and a stock clearance in the vine,
oh, we know maybe works better. And it's a better choice. But just because we're giving me to someone
else in obeah, okay, they just gave us suspended because someone else is using, because the devices
will need to have basic specs that can effect can affect the speed of the phone, when it affects the
speed of the phone affects connectivity, expected learning experiences, most of our phones now have
got Android 11. And the phone that is being given away. I think it's just Android seven, and a lot of the
apps that we use and develop to be compatible to the latest android version. And I think you guys will
summarize it's not about the specs, you know, the RAM and so on the graphic processors. So the basic
thing that you need is a phone that is has the proper speed in terms of operations and safety low spec
phone actually get heated up very fast and their batteries run out quickly which makes the students
need to recharge often and you know, online classes going from Morning to afternoon. So we, we
actually use these phones with our students. And one of our trainer tried to do a google virtual tour of
Malacca, during a class. And what happened was the phones really got heated up, and they had to,
like, you know, end the closet quickly, which truncates the experience of learning.

Unknown 10:22
Which really leads me to my next question. I mean, what you just said is such a great example, how
else is learning impacted the when students are working with these slower, less efficient devices?

Unknown 10:35
Where, okay, so we have so much material out there for students to experience and to learn. So now
when we give them a lower spec, for one, they get demotivated because the phone is not responding
well to whatever they want to do. Google, we also can get length on lower spec phones. And when you
are going to use it for longer when you get seated up. And they were like, okay, I can't do much. So
when is they getting motivated? Again, if you are reducing their experience of learning. So you can see
a lot of students now actually dropping out from online classes, it is really very tough to learn online
compared to face to face. Now, the least you can do is give them devices that work well. So that that
encourages them to continuously learn.

Unknown 11:26
Now, not to ask what might seem like a very basic question, but there was a report of these phones
catching fire when a student was using it during an online class. When it comes to these sorts of
initiatives, how important is it to consider the element of safety,

Unknown 11:43
I think it's very, very important because you are giving these in the hands of kids, and all of them are
below 80. You know, so a lot of things that devices, they don't know the safety user base, let's not even
go into the cyber safety, I'm talking about the device safety. So the just because the battery is running
out, they can just go and continuously plugging into charger and use it while it is being charged. There
is no instruction or anything like that it is stated that Okay, do not do this. So taking safety into
consideration is very, very important. We also had cases where some of the students this accidentally
dropped the phone and the whole screen is smashed. So these kinds of incidents actually happened
with the lower end phones compared to the higher end phones because we also purchased root kits
actually purchased. The higher end phones, which we bought like per phone was about 600 ringgit to
give the students and those phones are actually long lasting. And we managed to actually get the
students to learn and also use different kinds of apps on the phone with proper monitoring. So if you
really want it, we there is a way for you to do it.

Unknown 12:59
If we get back to the heart of this issue, right, the the phones donated being of low quality was
supposed to discourage kids from installing and playing games. And in this case, the act of learning
and the act of playing games are put on opposite ends of the equation. But could you tell us how the
two might already do intersect?
Unknown 13:18
Actually, they already you know, it is already intersecting we can't deny that, you know, kids nowadays
are growing up with technology. So if you want to take the technology out of them and say, Hey, you
have to learn this using books, the conventional way, it's not going to happen, we'd have to somehow
integrate these in order to give them a good learning experience. So we should actually give them the
proper guidance and create a safe space for them to actually learn in the digital space. You know, we
have managed to conduct a few cyber safety workshops for students, and we constantly educate them
about you know, how do we limit screen time? Why do we need to limit screen time? Of course, you
know, they're teenagers, or kids and certain things we need to monitor. But it's not impossible. So if you
look at our latest project of Annapurna, in order for us to engage students, we have actually included a
gamification aspect into the overall website. So that is how you are going to interact with the kids
nowadays, you can't run away from it. Yeah. And then there's so many games that we can use as tools
for education. If you just go online, even Khan Academy, they use a lot of gamification in all their
learnings, online quizzes. So using a low end phone, you can actually experience all this, even our
alcobendas does not do it on the low end phone.

Unknown 14:47
Now this in a larger sense points to a sort of a desire to control what kids do with these devices and
also a general sense of not quite trusting them. Can you speak a little bit About the benefit of giving
them the freedom to do what they like with these devices, and I suppose in a larger sense to give them
the benefit of the doubt.

Unknown 15:09
Yeah, I mean, yeah, they do need monitoring. I don't, I don't deny that. No. Like I said earlier, you know,
their kids, they're teenagers. So there are certain things that they won't be able to comprehend yet. So
they do need monitoring. So there are a lot of monitoring mechanisms. So what we did was, we
actually installed parental control, we install apps locks. So until today, the phones, the phones that are
out, we don't have any issues where the kids are misusing the phone, no, we don't see the phone bills
going up. Or when we monitor them online, or when we go and do checking with them. The phones are
in good condition. So you can do this kind of monitoring applications with them. But you also give them
a freedom of using the phones within certain parameters. So they need to learn what is freedom and
how not to misuse it. And this is one of the ways that you can teach them. And besides all organizations
that we know, a lot of the companies that we know, we know, they do have a monitoring system that
they installed in laptops to limit the usage of devices, when they give it to employees. So similar
applications can be done on these mobile devices, which is what we know we're doing. So I don't see
the reason why we can look into this.

Unknown 16:37
And I think we also need to address this issue of sustainability, right? Not so much in terms of even the
environment, but the devices being able to last Can you tell us why that matters?

Unknown 16:49
Yeah, so I think a lot of us are still used to thinking in a scarcity mode, you know, what I have now, that
is what I'm going to use, instead of looking at the long term solution. So the phones, the low end
phones that we managed to get for students, Benny, about six months down the road, we can really
see issues. And we are comparing it with the force that we purchased. The ones I said, you know,
about 600 different device, those phones are still in good condition. And we are quite confident that we
can continuously use that. So the one time investment is not going to last for a longer time. longer
periods. So it is sustainable. Number one, and the technology is not obsolete, yet. Whatever
technology that is in the low end phone, a lot of the newer aspects coming in a lot of the quizzes and
online learning applications cannot load on that phone. So there's no sustainability there. That means
your investment in that device is actually going down the drain. So why invest money in these devices
that is just gonna last you in a short term, instead of putting a little bit more extra money into something
that you can use for a longer time.
Unknown 18:06
Cookie in general, when it comes to charitable initiatives wanting to make donations or give aid, how
can we ensure that what we're doing is actually meaningful and effective?

Unknown 18:18
These are very, very interesting question. I often discuss this with my team members as well. And one
of my co founders, Mr. Bhalla, who's also my uncle, he always says if nobody wants one bag of rice
with 10 bags of advice, which is why you know, this initiative is to begin one phone for free and say that
okay, you can only use this for this class for this class or this application, you cannot use it again, you
cannot use it for that. So you are like setting so much of parameters is because you are giving the
phone for them. And there is no space for them to explore and for them to experience something that
someone else is experiencing. So the whole mindset of charity is within my means. And what I can do
should change into empowerment. Because there's no point of doing something that doesn't empower
someone. The whole idea is actually to lift this community up from their current state so that they can
be in a sustainable state in the future and they don't have to come back for another charity. So that is a
long term sustainable thing that you have to look at your empowerment instead of just looking at what
can I give within my means. Yeah, that is my two cents.

Unknown 19:32
cokie, thank you so much for speaking with us.

Unknown 19:35
Thank you so much for having me Sharmila. And

Unknown 19:39
that was Kogi Lavanya. Money and the founder of good kids Malaysia. And actually Kogi mentioned
appa Bandung Bandung in our chat, and you can check out their online art exhibition of artworks by
kids from V 40 communities at good kids.com.my slash Upper pandang pandang. We've also reviewed
the exhibition so you can search that up. On our site or our app, and we want to know your thoughts,
right. So we've been asking you, what do you make of this program? And also of the Spirit, I think in
which donations are offered? Is this something that we need to rethink? We do have lots of messages
and we'll come back for them after the 530 News. In the meantime, keep those thoughts coming. You
can call us double seven double 329 100 WhatsApp 018789 double eight double nine tweet us at B FM
radio.

Unknown 20:31
Thank you for listening to this podcast. To find more great interviews. Go to be FM dot might be Fm 89
point the business station

Transcribed by https://otter.ai