Well the point I was trying to get across is that there shouldn't really be any

support weapons, all of them should be a viable choice (obviously tag is different)

and please lets not turn this into another debate on lock on weapons and other
flights of fancy. The lock-on mechanics and other ideas require code changes which
we aren't going to see for some time. I'm only really interested in changes that we
can make right now via the xml and that the Cauldron can debate.

Edited by Dogstar, 30 June 2021 - 08:25 AM.

#11 Khobai

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Posted 30 June 2021 - 08:34 AM

it just requires xml changes not coding changes

the lockon time is a variable that can literally be changed by anyone

it doesnt require an engineer

#12 MechNexus

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Posted 30 June 2021 - 08:48 AM

View PostKhobai, on 30 June 2021 - 07:50 AM, said:

[/list]If you actually read my post I specifically mentioned all homing missiles
including LRMs. The ECM lockon time penalty needs to be reduced because its
oppressive.

And yes there are absolutely cases where ECM affects streak lockon as well. Have
you never prelocked a target thats out of LoS before jumpjetting or running around
a corner?

And I also suggested a 0.25s global reduction to lockon time.

Honestly - where's the problem here? ECMs countering lockons isn't oppressive, it's
their bloody job - and consider that TAG, BAP and NARC all exist to counter ECM in
turn.

#13 Khobai

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Posted 30 June 2021 - 08:50 AM

View PostMechNexus, on 30 June 2021 - 08:48 AM, said:

Honestly - where's the problem here? ECMs countering lockons isn't oppressive, it's
their bloody job - and consider that TAG, BAP and NARC all exist to counter ECM in
turn.

because ECM only weighs like 1.5 tons and missile systems weigh like 20 tons and
ECM is the most overpowered piece of equipment in the game for how little it
weighs.

and then on top of the 20 tons of launchers you already have to carry youre being
asked to carry additional equipment to counter ECM as well? as well as a compulsory
BAP now that missile lockon time is based on sensor range.

ECM is absolutely absurd. So I dont think reducing the missile lockon time penalty
from +50% to +25% is unreasonable. Its a very reasonable suggestion in fact.

Especially since missile lockon time was nerfed due to the artemis changes. So its
just helping to restore what was taken away by unfair PGI nerfs.

And you dont think its oppressive that it takes like 10 seconds to lockon to an
ecmd mech with LRMs? That is incredibly oppressive. Most locks dont get held nearly
that long. Even NARC beacons typically dont last that long before the NARCed mech
goes to hard cover or gets in an ecm field to nullify the NARC.

I would argue nerfing ECM just a little is a necessity at this point.

Edited by Khobai, 30 June 2021 - 09:12 AM.

#14 MechNexus

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Posted 30 June 2021 - 09:10 AM

View PostKhobai, on 30 June 2021 - 08:50 AM, said:

because ECM only weighs like 1.5 tons and missile systems weigh like 20 tons and
ECM is the most overpowered piece of equipment in the game for how little it
weighs.

and then on top of the 20 tons of launchers you already have to carry youre being
asked to carry additional equipment to counter ECM as well? as well as a compulsory
BAP now that missile lockon time is based on sensor range.

ECM is absolutely absurd. So I dont think reducing the missile lockon time penalty
from +50% to +25% is unreasonable. Its a very reasonable suggestion in fact.

Especially since missile lockon time was nerfed due to the artemis changes. So its
just helping to restore what was taken away.

And you dont think its oppressive that it takes like 10 seconds to lockon to an
ecmd mech with LRMs? That is incredibly oppressive. Most locks dont get held nearly
that long. Even NARC beacons typically dont last that long before the NARCed mech
goes to hard cover or gets in an ecm field to nullify the NARC.

You're missing two key pieces of the puizzle here.

Firstly, lockons are incredibly oppressive to play against if you don't have the
appropriate counters, did you consider that?

Secondly - Lockons do not take any effort to use whatsoever. If you don't want to
be shut down by a 1.5t piece of equipment and sparing a single ton (or half ton for
clans!) on a TAG is somehow too much for you, play a direct fire weapon system.

This is entirely a you problem and you're whining about literally nothing. What's
next, you'll cry about torso twisting being oppressive to play against because it
lets people protect open components & spread damage?

#15 Khobai

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Posted 30 June 2021 - 09:27 AM

View PostMechNexus, on 30 June 2021 - 09:10 AM, said:

You're missing two key pieces of the puizzle here.

Firstly, lockons are incredibly oppressive to play against if you don't have the
appropriate counters, did you consider that?

Secondly - Lockons do not take any effort to use whatsoever. If you don't want to
be shut down by a 1.5t piece of equipment and sparing a single ton (or half ton for
clans!) on a TAG is somehow too much for you, play a direct fire weapon system.

This is entirely a you problem and you're whining about literally nothing. What's
next, you'll cry about torso twisting being oppressive to play against because it
lets people protect open components & spread damage?

Again ecm only weighs 1.5 tons

its tonnage is not proportional to everything it does. and the list is extensive.
it doesnt just reduce lockon time it does a bunch of other things too.

and again missiles boats are already carrying 20+ tons of launchers and ammo.
forced to take bap. AND also forced to take counters to ECM? as well as a host of
sensor skills. just to deal with something that only weighs 1.5 tons?

you dont see a problem with that?

ECM has always been heinously overpowered and it absolutely needs a nerf.
Especially now that more mechs than ever have ECM. Its not uncommon to see 5-6
mechs on a team with ECM now. Multiple overlapping ECMs are not as easy to counter
as you claim.
Its not complaining about nothing. Im complaining about ECM doing way too much for
only 1.5 tons. And I am absolutely right. There is nothing else in the game that
does as much as ECM does for only 1.5 tons. AMS, TAG, NARC, BAP, etc... none of
those even come close.

And reducing ECM lockon time penalty from 50% to 25% is hardly going to cause
LRMpocalypse IV

Edited by Khobai, 30 June 2021 - 09:42 AM.

#16 FinnMcKool

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Posted 30 June 2021 - 11:18 AM

personally as some one who plays a lot of ECM and LRMs i think the ECM is just fine
the way it is, now we all know they are still working on the balance still so my
Opinion may change

lets wait and see

ps
Classic Canyon is the best map ever made.

#17 Leone

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Posted 30 June 2021 - 11:34 AM

View PostDogstar, on 30 June 2021 - 12:58 AM, said:

I feel that Flamers should do a lot more damage at the expense of maybe a small
reduction in heat generation,

That would make them less useful, not more. When I add a flamer or two to my
builds, I don't do it for the damage, I do it for the heat advantage, which you're
proposing to nerf. Flamers are in a decent place, and don't need anymore nerfs.
Sure, I wouldn't mind more range, but I could say that 'bout all my brawly
weaponry.

~Leone.

#18 Captain Caveman DE

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Posted 30 June 2021 - 11:46 AM

ECM is a giant problem ..
that is: if you ONLY play lockon-stuff, you got no TAG and you're only doing IDF.
anybody else? don't care about ecm very much.

having problems with ecm? try a direct-fire-approach, as you should in the first
place.