Meat Not Bad

BY R ICH AR D CAR R IER / ON DECEMB ER 9, 2011 / 226 COMMENTS

One ongoing question I get regards the application of my moral

philosophy to animals, and whether we morally ought to be
vegetarians owing to compassion being in fact a moral virtue. I
replied to Peter Hurford’s apt questions about that, noting why
being a vegetarian merely out of compassion for animals is nonrational
(it’s often just another kind of phobia based on false associations
between animals and people), but Saint Gasoline interjected that
though I may be right about that, there are other reasons to be a
vegetarian. But the reasons he gave were just as nonrational. So I decided to blog about it. I’ll start by repeating my original
reply.

[Note: In 2015 I revised this article by adding some qualifiers and replacing assertions of irrationality with
nonrationality, to emphasize the difference between doing something illogical and doing something that is merely
not motivated by reason, which could be sensible for yourself but does not automatically follow for anyone else. In
2020 I updated the context. I’ve also been recommended a book that might concur with my position though I
haven’t yet read it: Eat This Book.]

Why Compassion for Animals Does Not Necessitate Vegetarianism

Peter asked about the morality of factory farming. But “factory farming” tends to be misreported. When you investigate the
actual conditions on most farms, especially those vending major industries like KFC or McDonalds, you find they are not
as bad as PETA videos claim. They tend to mix ancient footage with recent (thus representing as current, conditions that
have long since been abandoned), overstate the frequency of outlier events (e.g. accidents), and misrepresent farms in
violation of existing laws or their own contracts with vendors (farms which then went out of business or underwent severe
reforms after being exposed) as being the norm (that’s where a lot of their “horrific” video comes from: gotcha
investigations of criminally negligent enterprises, not statistically common farm conditions—and I approve of this gotcha
activity).
The industry is actually a lot smarter and cleaner than propagandists
represent. In fact many of the conditions rights activists complain
about are actually so bad for actual production efficiency and profit
margin that no rational business would ever engage in them anyway,
even if animals were vegetables. Of course stupid criminal
mismanagement still occurs from time to time just as happens in any
industry (think Enron or the Titanic), but at the very least that means
we should support the enforcement of the laws we already have
(instead of defunding the FDA like the Republicans keep gunning to
do). And husbandry laws like California’s should be normalized nationwide, even deepened and improved (and even
set as requirements for import, thus forcing other nations to comply as well, if they want to do business with us—although
frankly we ought to do that for humans first…our foreign trade labor treaties are a bit anemic at present).

I also find that once you delete all the misrepresentations and outliers and then stick with actual, current, normal conditions,
animal rights advocates often misconstrue what is “bad” for an animal, thinking animals are just like people and thus
whatever we wouldn’t like they wouldn’t like, which is silly. Animals need a lot less than we do in order to be content and
to experience normal stress levels or less (normal being the amount of occasional stress, highs and lows, that they would
experience in the wild). Chickens, for example, are not miserable when in large crowded communities. There is a limit
beyond which comfort declines (California state law, for example, now recognizes this), but their “personal boundary”
space is a lot closer than it is for people, and often chickens voluntarily mass together for warmth and comfort. Thus
seeing a hanger full of clucking chickens brushing against each other should
not evoke tears. Animal quality of life has to be measured in terms of what
is comfortable for that animal, and must recognize such facts as that
animals aren’t aware of most things, and don’t aspire to be or do anything,
and have no prospect of becoming anything, and thus should not be hastily
anthropomorphized in these ways.

Accordingly I think being a vegetarian out of “compassion” is nonrational.

Having compassion for animals is rational. But deducing vegetarianism
from that is not. I mean that in the classic sense: it’s a non sequitur, and thus not a logically valid inference. It’s to treat
animals like people, which they are not. I’ve looked and listened far and wide and there is just no logically valid argument
that proceeds from “I ought to be compassionate” to “I ought to be a vegetarian.” Farming and eating animals is simply not
evil, for the reason I stated: our own overall life satisfaction depends on being compassionate, and compassion compels us
not to enjoy or want pointless torment to exist, no matter what or who is experiencing it. It would cause you pain, and thus
diminish your life satisfaction, to realize you are being a cruel or wholly indifferent person. But destroying an animal
humanely is not cruel. And it is not destroying a person. Again, an animal’s life is indifferent to when it dies, because it
does not become anything and has no awareness of being something. Thus eating animals is fine as long as you aren’t
torturing them (see my brief on this as the atheist correspondent for GodContention.com).

Vegetarians also seem nonrational to me in their acceptance of non-

vegetarians. Either eating meat is not all that immoral, or everyone they
know is a villain, horrifically consuming the flesh of concentration camp
victims. And yet they befriend us. Strange. It’s as if we were all serial child
molesters, while they refused to have sex with children because it’s wrong,
but then come to laugh at our dinner parties, have sex with us, and help us
move. Perhaps vegetarians think taking animal lives is no more awful than
flouting traffic laws or being mean to street urchins, although that makes
less sense of why they are so passionate about it. That’s not the rhetoric I
hear. The strong drive many of them have to maintain their lifestyle seems
attached to a belief that animal lives are “only slightly less valuable” than
human lives and that killing them is a revoltingly awful thing to do. And that would make no sense of their tolerating us as if
we were nothing more than casual traffic violators. If that’s the case, then it would seem vegetarians don’t really believe in
their own convictions. They have a violent emotional reaction to the thought of eating animals that is out of proportion to
any factual basis for it, which is what we would ordinarily call a delusion, as I explain in detail in my talk last year at
Skepticon III. Although vegetarianism is certainly a milder delusion than conservative Christianity, since its negative social
effects are minimal. But I suppose this depends on the actual reasons you choose this, and the intensity of your feelings
about it. But often enough the conclusion seems unavoidable to me. Vegetarianism is just another phobia, one that has it’s
own restaurants.

Why Concern for the Environment Does Not Necessitate Vegetarianism

It’s also not rational to be a vegetarian “to save the planet,” for the same reason it’s not rational to vote for third party
candidates in U.S. presidential elections. It’s literally the most useless thing you can do to effect any change or prevent
harm. As it happens, relying on local produce is worse for the environment. Factory farms are vastly more efficient. And
there are, excuse me, but a fucking shitload of people on this planet to feed. We could not feed them without factory and
industrial farming. But we’re here to talk about meat specifically…

Apart from its production meat is a highly efficient delivery vehicle for
a panacea of nutrients and essential fats and proteins, likewise milk,
eggs, yoghurt, lard, and cheese, while meat’s byproducts (the parts
people don’t actually eat) are essential across the economy: from pet
food for our carnivorous cats and dogs, to leather, wool, gelatine,
glue, tallow, fatty acids used in the production of plastic and rubber,
natural fertilizers (including urine and bone meal), and the ingredients
i n hundreds of other everyday products, from household
detergents and medicines, to paint, carpet, and processed wood. We get 185 products in all just from your average pig.
Replacing them all with artificial alternatives would actually produce a worse environmental impact (do you really want to
replace pigs with thousands and thousands of chemical-spewing, earth-stripping, water-and-power consuming factories?).

The natural production of all these hundreds of materials is not quite as inefficient as opponents claim. In fact, since it’s an
integral part of our overall recycling industry (more on that in a moment), abandoning meat production has consequences
that negate most of the benefits supposed to be obtained by it, even apart from the costs created by what we’d have to
replace it with (read Simon Fairlie, on whom I rely for much of the following, and Rob Lyons’ review thereof). Even the
meat industry’s negatives can be offset with continually improving technologies if we would just care to apply them. In other
words, the solution to such problems is to solve the fucking problem, instead of trying to abandon the industry altogether,
which will never happen. To be rational is to be realistic, and work for changes that can actually occur. Like increasing
the efficiency of an industry, which benefits everyone, business and environment alike. Game Theory, people. Learn it.
Live it.

Arguments against meat production tend to be based on bad math and bad science, and confuse the wisdom of eating less
meat (food supply diversity is essential to an economy and food supply stability as well as personal health), with the dogma
of eating none. When we look at the actual math and facts everything changes. For what follows I’ll rely on Fairlie’s work
as well as the excellent report on animal farming impact by WaterFootprint.org, and they have no pro-meat agenda, yet
their data corroborates the world meat industry’s report on the Environmental Impact of Meat Production Systems,
which likewise includes industry-independent data.

As just one example of bad math: much is made of how much

water is used to make meat. Yet almost all of that is actually Water Use in Texas (That’s Right, Cattle Country)
the water used to grow grain. The grain used to feed cattle, for
instance, amounts to 98% of the water consumption involved
in beef and dairy production (or more, depending on where
we are geographically). And almost all of that is rain water
(over 87%) which falls naturally and would have been wasted
anyway were it not put to some use—and likely we’d always
be putting it to some use (whether growing grain, generating
electricity, manufacturing, drinking, showering) so there would
be little net effect on water consumption if we abandoned the
meat industry. We’d just use that water for something else. Or
not use it at all. So even at its worst (and beef production is
the worst) meat production is really only negligibly more
water intensive than agriculture.

So the argument then shifts to why we waste all that grain,

when we could just eat it. Well, first of all, we are converting that grain into more than just meat. When we compare “per
ton of product” between cattle and grain, for instance, we’re not talking about just food; and not every item that comes off
a cow has the same value or importance. Per ton of fertilizer cows produce? Per ton of bone meal cows produce? Per ton
of tallow cows produce? Per ton of leather cows produce? Are these things the same value or even equatable to the food
that cows produce, including meat, fat, milk, cheese, whey, and yoghurt? Secondly, most of the grain we feed cows (and
other farmed animals), people couldn’t eat. It’s called roughage, a waste product. Over 80% of what even factory farmed
animals eat is actually recycled waste product from the production of grain humans are already eating . Whenever you
see stats like “22% of [U.S. grown wheat] is used for animal feed and residuals,” that word residuals means
agrowaste fed to livestock—so this is not “22% of human edible wheat product” that’s going to animals, but 22% of the
wheat product sold, whether humans could eat it or not. In fact most stats you’ll see for tonnage of crops parceled by use
don’t distinguish residuals from edible quantity, thus badly skewing what a naive reader might think such numbers mean.
Animal farming is not taking grain away from people, but making the grain people eat more efficient, by converting its waste
product into more food. And hundreds of other products besides food.

Now, in order to recycle that waste, we do have to supplement it with some quality product as well. In effect some human
edible grain must be “burned” to convert grain production waste into food (and corn is worldwide the most popular
supplement used), so animal farming does “consume” grains that humans could have eaten instead, but by doing so it
creates more food, and many other products. In other words, we are burning a little bit of grain to run these waste
recycling-plants we call animals—just as we have to burn resources to recycle plastic, metal, or paper.

When you do all the math for industrial cattle farming, for example, feed conversion efficiency for non-roughage grain input
is better than 4:1 (4 kg non-waste input for every 1 kg usable output), which is not bad considering what you get for it
(which is again, a lot more than just food—it’s also all those other animal products that grease our economy, literally and
figuratively). For industrial dairy farming this efficiency is actually 1:4, i.e. we get 4 kgs of usable product for every 1 kg of
usable product we put in. Which makes industrial dairy farming one of the smartest things we ever thought of (so it’s too
bad I can’t digest dairy, but even I benefit from this industry, as dairy products are in things even I and many vegetarians
eat, like bread). The numbers come out a little differently if you compare food energy input and output (for dairy it’s close
to 1:1; yet for beef it’s 1:0.65, which is better than 2:1, either way at near parity), but that’s not a wholly apt comparison
because energy is not all you get out of food (you also get a whole array of nutrients) and food isn’t all you get out of
animals. On balance, we do not appear to be wasting very much food on livestock. It looks like any other efficient system
of manufacturing, into which we pour a selection of resources and out of which we get hundreds of usable products of
comparable value.

Any other argument you hear ends up like that: start pulling at the threads of its specious math and facts, and it unravels.

For example, take the claim that “factory farming (specifically

for meat) is one of the greatest contributors to global Lose the Cows, and Get Screwed by the Grass
warming.” That’s simply not true. It’s based on an FAO
report that has led websites and wonks to say things like that
the “animal agriculture sector is responsible for 18%, or nearly
one-fifth, of human-induced greenhouse gas emissions, greater
than the share contributed by the transportation sector,” but
that’s hopelessly misleading. A third of that figure is based not
on the farming, but on the clearing of forests to expand
ranches in developing countries, which is a one-time cost and
not an actual ongoing effect of the ranch, and is not terminal
(forest clearing goes on a decline as countries doing it improve
economically and begin to balance their resources—they are
just going through the phase we went through a hundred years
ago, claiming for industry land that was effectively fallow, and gradually learning to balance that process with national
preserves and biodiversity). Nor is this a significant factor in first world animal farming (no one burned down a forest to
feed you Iowa beef).

Another one third of that figure consists of fertilizer production and use, most of which actually gets used in the agriculture
industry (and would thus simply be replaced with some other emissions-producing fertilizer), and what gets used for animal
husbandry (e.g. fertilizing pastures) would still be used if the same land were used for crops (in fact crops are more fertilizer
intensive), so this is not in fact anything we’d get back if we stopped animal farming. And when you subtract that element,
too, now you end up with just 6% of manmade emissions coming from actual animal farming that would go away if we
stopped. But that’s including inefficient animal husbandry in third world countries. How much of total manmade emissions
comes from actual modernized industrial animal farming? Less than 2%. And this is all based on that same FAO data. And
BTW these numbers reflect impact, not quantity, e.g. that “less than 2%” figure is taking into account that methane is a
hundred times worse than carbon dioxide. Hmm. Funny how “less than 2%” becomes “18%” with just a little accounting
chicanery. So if you are worried about cow farts (or really, burps) boiling the earth away, worry not. You are ruining the
environment just as much when you shower as when you eat a hamburger. In fact, if we set an average shower’s
greenhouse impact at about 2 units, a hamburger rates about 3…while the impact for a serving of winter tomatoes is 50.
That’s right, vegetarians. Perspective is a bitch.

Our factory farming system can be improved greatly, like any industry can (e.g. the amount of water consumed by
electricity generation and manufacturing is far more alarming than what we use to produce animal products). Thus like any
industry we ought to aim at improving it. But it’s not rational to say “we should just get rid of it,” and doubly nonrational to
think you’re ever going to get rid of it, and triply nonrational to think that a meaningless protest behavior (not eating meat) is
ever going to make one whit of difference to anything. Just eat a healthy, affordable diet, that balances the pleasures of life
with reasonable concern for your personal health and bank account, as well as the welfare of others, animals and people.
People especially. Cabbage and berry pickers have a much shittier life than many a cow, yet vegetarians don’t refuse to eat
cabbage and tomatoes because the labor that produces them is a tick above slavery. Those men and women need those
jobs to live, so we don’t want to cut off their livelihood with boycotts anyway, but neither should we be indifferent to their
plight and the need to improve their wages and treatment, even if that means paying more for a head of cabbage. To me this
seems a vastly more important issue than how well cows have it.

And Vegetarianism Is Not “Healthier”

I’ve just gone over a few examples. But I have yet to seeany rational reason to be a vegetarian, other than pure aesthetics
(“I just like it” or “it makes me feel good”) or medical necessity (“I have heart disease”), which are idiosyncratic (i.e. not
true for most people). Even basing it on anecdotes and testimonials (“I felt so much better after I went vegan!”) is
nonrational, because that’s just another alternative medicine mumbo placebo. Just sincerely convince yourself that eating
meat will have the same effect, and you’ll be saying “I feel so much better now that I went back to eating meat!” As in fact
many people do. It’s no different from “I felt so much better after I started wearing magnets on my feet!” Sure. But that’s
all in your head. Get control of your perception of reality and you can turn any lifestyle change into a source of improved
mood. Until you regress back to your baseline. This is not a sound basis for recommending other people placebo
themselves into vegetarianism.

“But it’s healthier!” is also false. Because the data do not consistently establish this.
Every diet has pros and cons, the net effect of which is zero, when any healthy diet is
compared. Thus the same mathematical and factual unraveling occurs for any
claimed benefit you pull at the threads of. Eating less meat is good for your heart, for
example, but not as much as is claimed, and even what is claimed is not very
impressive. One study is often cited as establishing 24% fewer deaths from
ischemic heart disease (but, notably, no differences whatever for any other cause of
death). In fact that study only established a 95% chance that the differential was
somewhere between 6% and 38%…pay close attention: that means the data do not
confirm a benefit any greater than only 6% fewer deaths (it could be greater, but we
don’t know). A 6% edge is effectively irrelevant. Even a 24% edge is not that
significant. It means for every 10 meat eaters who die of ischemic heart disease, about 8 vegetarians will likewise. Not a
huge improvement. Worse, heart disease is a default: because we have cured or can prevent or treat all other diseases so
well, yet people must necessarily eventually die of something, and that something is commonly heart disease (and cancer
next after that). Thus heart disease remains a top killer not because anything is causing more of it, but because we are living
longer and dodging every other bullet. In that light, vegetarianism isn’t giving us any real advantage. We’re just going to die
anyway, it will simply be of something else. Like non-ischemic heart disease, which is more common. And vegetarianism
confers no benefit against that. Lo and behold, that’s what the study found: when all causes are considered, vegetarians die
exactly as often as nonvegetarians do. No net benefit.

That same study also found that the difference between vegetarians and occasional meat eaters is so minimal as to be
insignificant. The latter had 20% fewer deaths from ischemic heart disease (with roughly the same interval)—in other words,
vegetarianism confers maybe a 4% advantage over reasonable meat consumption, which is so slight a difference it dissolves
beneath the study’s own margin of error. Notably, pescetarians and lactoovovegetarians did even better, at 34% reduction
in mortality for ischemic heart disease—with the same huge margin of error, but nevertheless, apparently eating fish, eggs
and dairy products confers more than twice the advantage over vegetarianism than vegetarianism confers over reasonable
meat eating. That this won’t move vegans to take up fish, eggs, and dairy is precisely why it doesn’t move rational meat
eaters to give up meat. And well it shouldn’t. The difference is just too trivial to care about. Even at a real 24% edge
(which, again, even this study did not actually confirm), attending to such small risk factors across your life would lead to
endlessly bizarre behavior, since even things as trivial as what city you live in can have as much of an effect, which is to say,
a difference of about 1 or 2 years life expectancy, which just isn’t significant enough a gain to burden yourself with
eighty years of pleasure denial for.

To give you a point of comparison, while vegetarianism might give you a

benefit of about 1.2 times lower mortality on one single illness, and yet still
makes no difference to when you die beyond at most one or two years, not
smoking definitely does give you a benefit of 10 times lower mortality rate on
numerous diseases, and for some diseases it’s 20 times or more. That’s a
huge change in life expectancy, amounting to 14 years on average, almost a
whole decade and a half. Moreover, there are many debilitating diseases that to
a disturbingly high frequency disproportionately plague a smoker for decades of
their life before they die, hugely adding to their financial costs and lost quality of
life. Like emphysema: my mother quit smoking in her thirties and twenty years later still came down with permanent
emphysema and will live with that for several decades. And if you’ve ever seen someone afflicted with that, it’s not fun. She
is on oxygen now, 24-7. And will have been for decades by the time she dies. Do you think smoking is worth that? Really?

Smoking also causes numerous other illnesses and health problems, and not just cancer, but yeah, lots of cancer. But
to take emphysema as an example, your odds of getting it do not increase 1.06, 1.2, or 1.4 times if you smoke, but 5 to 10
times if you smoke. Thus smoking is vastly more irrational than vegetarians claim eating meat to be (so vegetarians who
smoke: you’re the biggest fools on the planet). Vegetarianism is at least merely an inconvenience, provided you maintain a
healthy diet (merely eating vegetarian does not constitute a healthy diet; in fact vegetarians have to be even more informed
and careful about managing their diet precisely because they are avoiding a primary delivery vehicle for many of the
vitamins and nutrients humans normally need).

Notably, early studies showing improved health and lifespan for vegetarians, when controlled for smoking (because
vegetarians tend not to be smokers), showed no remaining advantage to being a vegetarian. In other words, eat a
reasonable diet of meat, fish, eggs, dairy, vegetables, nuts, and fruit. And don’t fucking smoke.

Share
this:

B A YES’ THEOREM : LUST FOR GLORY! APPEARING IN JANUARY

226 comments
DR • DECEMBER 10, 2011, 5:01 AM

About local meat and produce being less efficient: you have a point, but how does transportation factor into this?
Wouldn’t the costs of shipping fruit (for example) from California to Toronto in a reasonable amount of time
(which means that trucks, not trains, have to be used) outweigh the benefits of large-scale production?

R E P LY

1000 N EED LES • D EC EMBER 1 0, 201 1 , 5:46 AM

“
Accordingly I think being a vegetarian out of “compassion” is irrational. I mean that in the
classic sense: it’s a non sequitur, and thus illogical. It’s to treat animals like people, which they
are not.
Animals such as pigs and cows have relatively advanced nervous systems. They exhibit emotional responses
very similar to our own (joy, grief, fear, et cetera). Therefore it is highly probable that they are capable of feeling
pain and suffering in a similar manner as humans.

I prefer not to cause unnecessary suffering to any animal, whether human or pig, that might have the capability to
experience it.

By your own argument, laws against animal abuse are a non-sequitur.

R E P LY

N EW EN GLA N D BOB • D EC EMBER 1 0, 201 1 , 7:07 AM

Thank you for a well reasoned article. I would like to stress that our human body requires us to eat high protein
foods, including meat. Grains can often be empty calories and contribute to obesity as much or more than eating
fat. See the books and other articles on the Paleo diet (which is too extreme for me)

I tend to eat little or no grains or their processed products like bread, cereal, cake, cookies, etc. and live quite
well on fish, meat, poultry, vegetables, fruits (fresh and dried) and nuts. Removing grains from my diet has made
me healthier and helped me lose weight, along with exercise.

R E P LY

VER I TA SK N I GH T • DEC EMBER 10, 2011, 8:02 AM

It’s official. Richard Carrier is my new hero.

R E P LY

BOB H A R MOU N T • DECEMBER 10, 2011, 8:45 AM

Very interesting. Have you read “Why We Get Fat” by Gary Taubes? He digs into the science behind our
current obesity epidemic. I would value any comments you might have on it.
Bob Harmount

R E P LY

ZH U GE • DECEMBER 10, 2011, 10:33 AM

I just want to make a point concerning “how can vegetarians possibly accept meat eaters?” segment of this
article. I think you must be presuming some sort of Kantian style morality in order to make this point. Because it
seems to me rather obvious that most of us are capable of making distinctions between “I think this is how to
maximize the good” vs. “this is an absolute wrong” and act accordingly in our relationships.

For example, you mention the labor situation in both agriculture and foreign sweatshops as an example of things
that might be more worth our time to investigate. Yet, even if I take care to buy from non-sweatshop outlets, buy
fair trade foods, etc. I certainly do not break friendships with people over their disagreement or failure to do
what I think maximizes the good, i.e. who buy sweatshop made clothes. The same is true of my friends who
think that lowering taxes on the rich is good. I would say such is more harmful than a great many other positions
they might take, but I am not about to break my friendships over it.

I also think that if you can show that cutting down tremendously on meat eating relative to the average
American’s diet(for an American) would be better for any of the reasons given above that an argument for
vegetarianism (for some) can be made. It would be based on a Parfit-like “rational irrationality” that would go
along the lines: It is difficult to eat meat in moderation in the United States due to the nature of meals(which
heavily favor meat), portion sizes, etc. However, it is easier-psychologically for some- to actually commit to
cutting something out of one’s life instead. Hence being a vegetarian, while not rational in and of itself, might be
rational for someone for whom moderation is difficult. I think this would apply to a number of people, in the
same way that abstaining from alcohol might be strictly speaking worse for one’s health than drinking a glass of
wine once in a while. But for one who has a hard time moderating one’s consumption, the consequences of
drinking heavily far outweigh the consequences of not drinking so even though the most “rational” thing to do
might be to have a glass a day, for a person with a difficult time drinking in moderation, refraining is the best
course of action.

(In general, I think that this, along with aesthetic concerns, motivates more vegetarians that you might think.
Particularly if one asks about cows raised humanely on marginal land(with a carbon offset for good measure!)
and slaughtered humanely. Many vegetarians will still not eat this type of meat, but will (myself included) certainly
agree there is no moral injunction not to.

Nonetheless, I am glad that your article does not hit any of the ridiculous complaints that vegetarians are
oppressing meat eaters or something by existing, so thanks very much for that!

(As a side note, you say that a meaningless protest like vegetarianism accomplishes nothing. Nonetheless a
major point of your article is that the crueler factory farming of the 70’s is diminishing. I have no facts relating to
it, but is it not at least possible that the rise of vegetarianism as a part of the animal welfare cause in that period
and beyond might at least be partly responsible for such changes, either legally(as in the California law you site)
or otherwise, by being a form of awareness raising?)

Thanks again for the food for thought!

R E P LY

JOH N - H EN R Y BEC K • DECEMBER 10, 2011, 10:33 AM

As someone pretty disgusted at the idea of being forced to vote for one repubocrat or another, I kinda wonder
about that line about it being irrational to vote for 3rd parties. In theory anyway; I’m not sure there’s anything in
the way of 3rd parties out there I could support either.

Anyway, as to the actual point of the article, there’s a lot of good stuff there. I think it enlightened me,
particularly on the environmental impacts, where I was accepting some of those claims of the methane and water
use being excessive and that sort of thing.
I’m no vegetarian, mind. I eat little beef, and that’s mostly preference for chicken and turkey. I’m trying to focus
on more vegetables, but that’s mostly about personal health (particularly calorie reduction). I think I already
understood the basics of a healthy diet.
I certainly hope that the factory farming is better than we often hear. I knew it was hard to trust PETA reporting.
But it’s also often hard to trust the ethics of businesses running the ‘factory farms’.

To summarize my rambling – I like the article and I agree with a lot of it. It would be good to improve some
areas here and there, for various reasons, but the industrial scale farming is pretty important for efficiently feeding
so many people.

R E P LY

SOLON • DEC EMBER 10, 2011, 10:35 AM

Where do you get this absolutists “One True Way” silliness?

>>our own overall life satisfaction depends on being compassionate,

No, it doesn’t in any absolute sense.

>>compassion compels us not to enjoy or want pointless torment to exist, no matter what or who is
experiencing it.

No, it doesn’t in any absolute sense. And especially when it could increase your satisfaction in helping those
close to you.

>>an animal’s life is indifferent to when it dies, because it does not become anything and has no awareness of
being something.

Odd to conclude animals are indifferent to dying. And especially when we’re just slightly more clever animals
than all the rest.

R E P LY

TR EN T • DECEMBER 10, 2011, 10:40 AM

Hitler was a vegetarian!

R E P LY

P • DECEMBER 10, 2011, 10:55 AM

Hello Richard,
I’ll first report that I disagree with much of what you say, though there is a lot to respond to so I won’t bother
with most of it.
Philosophers who write on this topic are almost universally agreed that factory farmed meat eating is morally
wrong. I’d just suggest Peter Singer and Jim Mason’s excellent new book, which is packed with tons of
empirical data:
http://www.amazon.com/Ethics-What-We-Eat-Choices/dp/1594866872/ref=sr_1_6?
ie=UTF8&qid=1323542294&sr=8-6
I could recommend several other books to you which rely on industry data to back up the claim that factory
farming is terrible for animal welfare. PETA is not the only anti-factory farming group in existence. Pointing to the
irrationality of some vegetarians doesn’t generalize. Certainly some vegetarians may be relying on reading human
emotions into animals, but it is hard for me to believe all vegetarians do this.
Animals exhibit many “stress behaviors” (industry term, not animal rights activist term) in factory farming
conditions which they do not exhibit under any other conditions.

You make claims like the following, as evidence that animal welfare is not compromised in factory farming
conditions:
“often chickens voluntarily mass together for warmth and comfort.”
This is not a good piece of reasoning. It is analogous to saying “often women voluntarily have sex with men for
pleasure and comfort” as a justification of rape. (No, I’m not comparing factory farming to rape, I am just using
an example to illustrate the fallacy in reasoning.)

Anyway, I was wondering if you could give me some evidence for your claim that factory farming conditions are
not poor conditions for animal welfare, because most of that aspect of your argument is just baldly stating claims
without back up. I have personally read *industry* accounts of CAFO conditions and regulations, and you can
make a good case, based solely on industry reports, that factory farming is bad for animal welfare. (e.g. They
have to de-beak chickens, because they are so cramped that otherwise they will injure each other in response to
stress–a behavior not exhibited in chickens in non-CAFO conditions. Similarly with docking the tails of pigs to
prevent cannibalistic behavior–another behavior not exhibited in pigs in non-CAFO conditions.)
If you’d like, I can point you toward some non-PETA sources to read about factory farming conditions and why
you might think that it is not ideal for animal welfare or the environment. (I agree with you that it isn’t essentially
healthier, though it is certainly possible to be a healthy vegetarian.) But I’ll only do that if you ask. Knowing your
personality, no possible empirical information or argumentation could change your mind, so I won’t waste your
time unless you prove me wrong about that.

R E P LY

C E T E R I S PA R I B U S • D E C E MBE R 1 0, 201 1 , 1 2:24 P M

Your post provides a rich feast of ideas to respond to. Oddly, with just a few insertions here and there of terms
like “manifest destiny” or “according to God’s Plan”, some of the content could be read as if it were to appear in
a Dominionist tract or sermon. Possibly you are playing devil’s advocate with your readers?

OK, so I accept your premise that humans are not animals, on many levels. One thing that does seem to
distinguish rational humans from animals is that we have developed some concept of an inter generational
continuum which requires that we learn from our cultural history and also take into account the needs of future
generations. Except of course for those who hold that the end of times is near and they are the last generation.
But we are talking here about rationality, so here is my response.

You say in the context of industrial animal farming that “no one burned down a forest to feed you Iowa beef”.
But this ignores other natural resources being lost by production of annual crops of corn on land which
previously had sustained both the grasses and the meat animals that grazed on them, adequately serving limited
populations of both humans and animals which coexisted with the agricultural environment.

It happens that the perennial grasses seen on lands such as were native to Iowa are just the most visible above
ground component of a community of other plants, deep roots of the grasses, and myriad micro organisms that
collectively produce and store large quantities of plant nutrients in the soil and deeper into the subsoil.

Because these nutrients can only be released back to the plants in small amounts each year there remained a
reserve making it is possible for the perennial grasses to bridge over inevitable years of drought, bad weather,
periodic insect infestations, and the occasional over grazing by large roaming herds of meat animals.

Annual row crops such as the feed corn used for industrialized beef production have been selected for entirely
different characteristics. They have shallow roots that minimize plant’s own needs in order to favor the needs of
the crop, and so do not develop deep roots which protect the soil from erosion or support the complex of micro
organisms which store nutrients in the soil. Annual crops require applications of artificial fertilizers to yield crops
of sufficient economic value to justify the investment in farm machinery which unlike most capital investments is
used only a few weeks of a year. In wet years excess applied fertilizer follows the river drainages producing
ocean ‘dead zones’ in ocean areas which previously were important sources of sustainable marine animal
protein. Most importantly, annual row crops leave much of the soil surface exposed to wind and water erosion
which removes soil particles at a rate higher than new soil can form, in effect mining a finite resource.

So while no forest has been burned in Iowa to produce meat, mining the soil to produce corn will inevitably
reduce future food available for humans whether they prefer their food in the form of meat or vegetable.
Somewhat counter intuitively, but given the differences in distribution of rainfall between natural forest lands and
natural grass lands, burned over forests can be restored to trees long before soil mined grasslands can be
restored to perennial grasslands.

In the context of “efficiency” you say “Factory farms are vastly more efficient.” But the concept of “efficiency” of
agriculture here seems incompletely stated in a culture where the measure of efficiency of factory farms is by the
standard economic model. This economic efficiency really only cares about monetary return on investment, using
ideas that all monetized goods are fungible, and employs electronic currencies that have no reality beyond pixels
on a screen. And all of which are accounted for on a time scale which says a dollar made today is worth more
than a dollar made tomorrow; and where the long future is no farther distant than the next annual, or even
quarterly, profit and loss report to the stock holders.

But food supplies are physical, not always fungible, perishable, require transport infrastructure, and operate on a
time scale requiring a generation or more to fully measure the external costs which economic accounting does not
address at all.

Perhaps you do mean a different idea of efficiency, but in my view there is not any measure of efficiency which
would commend using efficiency as a motivation for increasing food production to feed a population of 7 billion
people. We simply need some other measure of value beyond efficiency or maximization.

Those who have followed Dawkins are familiar with the recurrent laryngeal nerve which takes an evolutionarily
inherited, but entirely inefficient, path in the mammalian body. But while not efficient the route is sufficient for the
purpose of getting the nerve from the point where it originates to the point where it ends, and there is no need for
evolution to go further to maximize the efficiency of routing. The existing route is satisfactory, and sufficient for
the job.

So if evolution does not demand efficiency and maximization, it might be instructive to notice that for most of
human life the living population never exceeded a few hundreds of millions. The minimal required population to
maintain a robust human gene pool is reported to be only in the tens of thousands. A population of that size has
been satisfactory, and sufficient for the job.

So now we come to a time in history where there is a wide spread desire to employ agricultural technologies that
maximize food production efficiency in the short term, but are unsustainable on the time frame of just a few
additional generations. The purpose of the program is to temporarily feed a population of 7 billion and yet still
growing.

Is that desire for maximization and short term economic efficiency of food production the result of a moral
imperative, or a rational argument, or merely the product of a pervasive dominionist theology desiring to
maximize the number of souls invited to participate in their end of times event?

Thanks for your discussion of food production. It brings to mind Garret Hardin who mentioned two things often
left aside in matters of natural resources and people. One was: “Like the Sorcerer’s apprentice, we learn the
hard way that we can never do merely one thing.” We humans tend to see things as atomistic, and not so much
as systematic.

Another Hardin aphorism was: “In the ecolate view of the world, time has no stop: every well meant proposal
must be challenged by the question, “And then what?” “

R E P LY

JOE T • DECEMBER 10, 2011, 2:38 PM

This just blew my mind. I’m gonna have to fact check it a bit more but if everything checks out it will definitely
change the way I think about meat.

R E P LY

JWLOF TU S • DECEMBER 10, 2011, 2:56 PM

Richard, there seems to be something a bit, shall I say, emotional with your argument when you say this:

“
“But it’s irrational to say “we should just get rid of it,” and doubly irrational to think you’re
ever going to get rid of it, and triply irrational to think that a meaningless protest behavior (not
eating meat) is ever going to make one whit of difference to anything.”

I would hope you see this statement for what it is. When you are so emotional about an argument it cause you to
lose the perception of even-handedness–just a caution my friend.
Now I can’t dispute your facts, nor do I wish to. I will continue studying this issue. I eat meat by the way. But I
prefer it be grown organically and killed quickly.

Remember, we’re dealing with sentient animals who can feel pain. It behooves us to be as sure as we can that
we are not inflicting upon them needless pain. As such we should be able to agree that abuses should be
discouraged.

R E P LY

QU ESTI ON A BLE_TH I N GS • DEC EMBER 10, 2011, 8:26 P M

I agree. I was going to send this to a vegetarian friend of mine, but it’s a bit too emotional and
insulting.

R E P LY

RICH ARD CARRIER • DECEMBER 13, 2011, 11:05 AM

John, there is nothing wrong with being emotional. And I’m sure you agree, because you
routinely get emotional on subjects you tackle as well. That’s actually entirely human. In fact,
I think it is a little disingenuous to put on an air of being unemotional, since you are then only
concealing from the reader what is actually motivating you. Even academic work would be
better off if its emotion and biases were explicit rather than disguised behind a rhetoric of
objectivity.

The aim should not be to eliminate emotion, but to check both sides of an argument first and
make sure your facts and logic are correct, and then present that case. Objectivity is then
produced by the reliability of the data used and the validity of the logic applied to it. That’s in
fact what logic and standards of evidence are for: as a check against emotions and biases.
Not as a way to eliminate them (which can never be done), but as a way to eliminate their
effects.

R E P LY

LOU DOEN CH • DECEMBER 10, 2011, 2:58 PM

“And don’t fucking smoke.”

But I wanna… ;(
I guess I’ll have to settle for smoking meat…

R E P LY
 R A Y MOSC OW • DEC EMBER 10, 2011, 4:40 P M

I’m pretty much OK with the ethics of traditional farming and ranching. The animals generally have a better life
and a less painful and stressful death than their wild counterparts would have.

Some of the modern ‘intensive’ ranching methods, of keeping animals in crowded cages their entire lives, seem
unnecessarily cruel, though.

There’s no easy solution that would eliminate animal suffering, though. Even raising vegetables and grain
necessitates the death of countless small animals.

R E P LY

VEGA N P H D • DEC EMBER 10, 2011, 4:51 P M

You make many good points which should cause me to reevaluate my positions and actions. The information
about water usage is interesting, as is the issue with smoking being a factor in many early studies.

Of course I don’t agree with everything you say or imply. You express that anyone with compassion has a desire
to minimize “pointless torment”, which (assuming you yourself are compassionate) implies a belief that any
suffering caused by factory farming is necessary. While I’m willing to accept that factory farms aren’t necessarily
as bad as the vegan propaganda suggests, I find it hard to believe that there isn’t a considerable amount of
torment that occurs in them.

As for the statement

“
But it’s irrational to say “we should just get rid of it,” and doubly irrational to think you’re
ever going to get rid of it, and triply irrational to think that a meaningless protest behavior (not
eating meat) is ever going to make one whit of difference to anything.

we do live in a capitalist society. A person’s money is effectively their vote, and while a single’s person’s money
or vote is statistically insignificant a large number of people spending/voting the same way can effect change. (As
an aside, I wonder why you felt this statement necessary, since it seems to be the only one in the post that
attacks people rather than their ideas.)

I’ll end my rambling with a question, which is a serious one even though it may come across as inflammatory: Do
you believe non-human animals have any inherent worth or worth beyond how they are useful to humans?

R E P LY
 SI ER R A N EVA D A • D EC EMBER 1 0, 201 1 , 7:49 P M

So much bias masquerading as rationality. But I question in particular three assertions.

1) “…destroying an animal humanely is not cruel.”

Tautology. “Humane” actions by definition are not cruel. However lacking in cruelty, destruction that lacks
necessity is neither “rational” nor “not cruel.” Vegetarianism, veganism, et al. assert that necessity is a
precondition for the humane destruction of animal life. And they don’t just assert the un-necessity of it from an
armchair, they show it by living it.

Now you can no doubt find hypocritical, inefficient, and irrational examples of vegetarianism and veganism, but
that search would just as biased an activity as vegetarians who cite examples of immoral factory farming.

2) “…an animal’s life…has no awareness of being something.”

Leaving aside the question of “How the hell do you know this?” (which you emphatically do not, by the way),
this is a very funny reason to deny compassion to another creature. So you think that you, a contingent creature
with some free archair time, can decree that a category to which you believe you belong and imagine others not
to is the only criterium for compassion?

Anthropocentrism is just as irrational as anthropomorphism.

3)”I also find vegetarians irrational in their acceptance of non-vegetarians.”

So our only rational and moral choices are joining you for bacon cheeseburger lunches or all out war? Can’t we
try some other modes, since we have some common causes and compassion with you meat-eating types. Some
of us have spent most of our lives as meat eaters, how could we rationally deny others the courtesy of coming to
their senses that we ourselves were allowed?

But since you seem to want asking for it, I will give you a little bombast and name-calling: That is the stupidist
freaking false choice I have ever heard, Armcharrier.

Does that help?

R E P LY

MIJN H EER • APRIL 29 , 2012, 9 :17 AM

Well said, Sierra.

R E P LY

K AR IMGH AN TOUS • D EC EMBER 1 0, 201 1 , 8:1 8 P M

“
 “
When you investigate the actual conditions on most farms, especially those vending major
industries like KFC or McDonalds, you find they are not as bad as PETA videos claim.

Firstly, I’m glad to hear it. Secondly, PETA is a dogmatic organization anyway, sort of like anti-abortion
movements. I can’t take them seriously. Thirdly, I’m kind of glad that I make my food choices based on quality
as well as type. I eat some meat but I never eat fast food.

Americans have a huge obesity problem (and Australians do as well – I think we are catching up, but I don’t
have the data). This has to do with so many factors that you can’t even start with the notion that meat is the
problem. That’s crazy. However, the quality of meat that many Americans eat is not ideal, i.e. it’s grain-fed, not
grass-fed.

It’s like choosing the wrong fuel for your engine – yes, it will work for a while, even a long while, but you could
either burn an exhaust valve or break a piston ring.

Lifespan is not really the main thing I’m looking at. I’m looking at quality of life as well. The aim is to have the
best of both. Hell, some drug addicts and smokers live to an average lifespan! So to talk about lifespan only is
misleading (I’m not saying you are being misleading, though).

Over here in Australia I watched on TV a chicken farmer saying, with complete reassurance, that he only feeds
his chickens small amounts of antibiotics, therefore we shouldn’t worry! Oh, dear. Well, you can see that there
are pragmatic reasons for not eating meat. However, we buy chickens which are not fed antibiotics.

BTW it’s illegal here to feed animals hormones, which is worth noting because a few people take it for granted
that meat has added hormones in it. Such is the side-effect of a global village: things which are not relevant to
one society are perceived to be so, because we often all get our information from the same channels.

“
so it’s too bad I can’t digest dairy

You’re kind of lucky and kind of not lucky. Unlucky because you can’t eat eggs. Lucky because you can’t drink
milk. You might know this, but milk is in fact good for you as long as it isn’t processed. Processed milk is bad
news (the casein clogs your intestines and your body can’t extract the calcium). You see how common wisdom
doesn’t always catch up with modern reality.

It seems to me, especially after reading this piece, that when most people discuss issues like meat eating, all sorts
of factors are confused with each other. If meat is unhealthy for a given person: it’s maybe because of the way it
has been grown, not because of its inherent qualities; and because that person might be eating too much meat
and not enough vegetables.

R E P LY
 A N DR EW G. • DECEMBER 11, 2011, 3:13 AM

The indiscriminate use of antibiotics in agriculture is a problem regardless of whether anyone

eats the resulting meat or not.

These are unsupported fact claims that you need to justify in order to be taken seriously:

“
However, the quality of meat that many Americans eat is not ideal, i.e. it’s
grain-fed, not grass-fed.

“
You might know this, but milk is in fact good for you as long as it isn’t
processed. Processed milk is bad news (the casein clogs your intestines and
your body can’t extract the calcium). You see how common wisdom doesn’t
always catch up with modern reality.

R E P LY

GWEN • DECEMBER 11, 2011, 9 :06 AM

“(the casein clogs your intestines and your body can’t extract the calcium).” Wrong on both
points, showing an incredible lack of understanding of simple biology. NO, your intestines
don’t get ‘clogged’. Normal peristalsis ensures that what you put in one end, comes out the
other, unless you have certain underlying conditions. Processing the milk protects you from
pathogens which may be present in the milk despite proper preparation and handling.
Consider the high number of disease outbreaks and recalls in the raw milk industry.
Processing the milk does nothing to your ability to absorb the calcium. It is the biological
function of your intestines to absorb nutrients from your food, and processing the food will
not prevent it.

R E P LY

LY K E X • D E C E M B E R 1 2 , 2 0 1 1 , 6 : 0 8 P M

“
 “
Processed milk is bad news

I wonder if you have a reference for that. I’ve heard the claim before, but mostly the people
saying it have been nutjobs, so I’m a bit wary of it.

What is it about processed milk that is supposedly bad for you?

R E P LY

RICH ARD CARRIER • DECEMBER 13, 2011, 10:59 AM

Karim, just to clarify, that I can’t consume dairy doesn’t mean I can’t eat eggs. Eggs do not
contain lactose (and accordingly they do no harm to me, and I haven’t developed an aversion
to them). I realize that’s a confusion one can make, though, since dairy can mean lactose
products alone, or eggs as well.

R E P LY

A LEXA N DER K R U EL • DECEMBER 11, 2011, 3:13 AM

Nice post, some new information to take into account. But I am myself mainly a preference vegetarian. Just as
some people are not into naturism I don’t like the thought of eating something that was once part of a quite
sophisticated machine. If one could eat books, I wouldn’t devour them either. That seems tasteless to me. And
the last time I checked such preferences didn’t count as particularly irrational. Therefore you shouldn’t make it
sound like all vegetarians fit into a certain category.

And regarding your remarks about the “destruction” of animals. I think you are overconfident here that animals
don’t have any awareness that would be considered morally significant by some people.

Nevertheless, I wish you would spend your time on more important topics. For example the examination of
existential risk scenarios and if it is rational to to contribute money to organisations that try to research or mitigate
them. I wrote you an email about it to obtain the opinion of someone who is well-read, who has the necessary
education and does possess the right mindset to examine some claims that are being made regarding that topic.

R E P LY

JAS ON TOR P Y • D EC EMBER 1 1 , 201 1 , 9 :07 AM

As a long-time fan of Dr C, I have to say I’m taken aback by this attempt at rationality…
This article boils down to the following argument:
premise 1: Eating meat and meat products is not so bad
premise 2: Doing other things is just as bad.
Conclusion A: It’s ok to torture and kill animals for pleasure.

Even accepting the premises, the proper conclusion is to 1) not eat meat or meat products, because ‘not so bad’
is still bad. Premise two is a simple non sequitur as those other things are not mutually exclusive to a vegan
lifestyle.

This comment isn’t room for a proper item-by-item, but readers should ask themselves if the dichotomies
proposed are really valid. Is there really a conflict between showering and eating hamburgers? Would rainwater
really be wasted if it weren’t diverted to the meat industry? Would it be impossible to find non-meat substitutes
for animal byproducts. Is grain for cattle the only produce (or activity) that land could produce?

Also remember that all those mitigating circumstances, if true, are there only to justify a simple desire to munch
on a steak. That’s not “rational” meat-eating, it’s “rationalized” meat-eating.

And contrary to the sensational warning about “endlessly bizarre behavior,” I think opting out of meat-products
for food is a pretty simple life change. It’s only made difficult by the influence of culture, tradition, and authority
in forcing this ancient practice on a populace that is ready to evolve (sound familiar?).

To answer the specific question of why veg*ns are so tolerant towards others, it’s simply due to the weight of
culture and our ability to recognize the limits of personal suggestion. 25,000 kids died in Africa today, and that’s
one of many tragedies, but I do what I can to make the world a better place. That’s perspective. No amount of
tearing at my eyes when someone eats a hamburger will change their heart. But I might remind them that it’s not
the best life we could live, and maybe they’ll think better of it the next time.

R E P LY

GWEN • DECEMBER 11, 2011, 9 :10 AM

Richard, you neglected to mention the number of voles, mice, birds, snakes etc killed in the process of planting
crops. The machine in preparing the field, digs down about a foot, killing everything in its way down to that level.
If PETA were sincere about their concerns for animal, they would make sure every field is prepared and every
crop planted by hand. Until they do, they have animal murder on their hands with every meal they eat…

R E P LY

C A R OL EBER H A R D • DECEMBER 11, 2011, 9 :11 AM

Eat more venison! I am a hunter and, believe me, we hunters get a lot of grief for what we do. But, one thing is
for certain, when I sit down to eat, I know an animal died so that I could have nourishment. No sanitized cello
wrapped package that doesn’t remotely bring to mind a living creature. For any creature living on this planet, for
you to live, something else has to die. Everyone has blood on their hands, I can just see mine.

R E P LY
 EP I STA XI S • DEC EMBER 11, 2011, 9 :31 AM

Denialism at its most erudite but least informed.

“
The industry is actually a lot smarter and cleaner than propagandists represent. In fact many of
the conditions rights activists complain about are actually so bad for actual production
efficiency and profit margin that no rational business would ever engage in them anyway, even
if animals were vegetables.

This is a surprising factual claim. Where are the citations? In fact, where are the explanations of what specific
claims you’re even refuting here? What you’ve said is something that could take a whole series of articles to
document; what series of articles did you read while researching this post?

“
animal rights advocates often misconstrue what is “bad” for an animal, thinking animals are
just like people and thus whatever we wouldn’t like they wouldn’t like,

Can you make this argument without constructing a strawman? Or at least tell us which people advanced this
position?

“
Animals need a lot less than we do in order to be content and to experience normal stress levels
or less (normal being the amount of occasional stress, highs and lows, that they would
experience in the wild). Chickens, for example, are not miserable when in large crowded
communities.

[citation needed] again, even if you happen to have an advanced degree in zoology. Animal behavior is actually a
huge field of scientific inquiry, not something people casually assert with a wave of the hand. Also, do they enjoy
de-beaking without anesthetic?

“
I’ve looked and listened far and wide and there is just no logically valid argument that
proceeds from “I ought to be compassionate” to “I ought to be a vegetarian.”
An argument from your own willful ignorance is not compelling. Which philosophers have you read? How did
you refute their arguments?

“
Again, an animal’s life is indifferent to when it dies, because it does not become anything and
has no awareness of being something.

Are you not aware that many animals demonstrate various degrees of self-awareness and reaction to each
other’s death? Or do you not care whether the words you’re using actually mean anything in particular? Again,
this requires far more citations than zero.

“
It’s also not rational to be a vegetarian “to save the planet,” for the same reason it’s not
rational to vote for third party candidates in U.S. presidential elections. It’s literally the most
useless thing you can do to effect any change or prevent harm. As it happens, relying on local
produce is worse for the environment.

Now aside from not having done any research, it’s clear you don’t even know what issue you’re talking about
anymore. Local food != vegetarianism. In fact, had you read your own citation (actually it’s just a blog post that
links to more respectable sources), you’d realize most of the evidence contained therein concerns vegetables,
not meat.

“
Animal farming is not taking grain away from people, but making the grain people eat more
efficient, by converting its waste product into more food. And hundreds of other products
besides food.

So basically you’re saying animals are a perpetual motion machine. Rather than lose 90% of the energy at each
link in the food chain, we can simply hook up the waste from the top to the feeders at the bottom, and suddenly
the system is more efficient than if we cut out the middleman. Take that to the patent office.

“
 “
For example, take the claim that “factory farming (specifically for meat) is one of the greatest
contributors to global warming.” That’s simply not true.

Ah, I was wondering when the global-warming denial was coming. You really like to make an argument from
numbers and then stop using those numbers as soon as they’re inconvenient:

“
fertilizer production and use, most of which actually gets used in the agriculture industry (and
would thus simply be replaced with some other emissions-producing fertilizer)

Oh? Which fertilizer are you talking about? How much methane and NOX does it emit? I thought this was about
numbers.

“
You are ruining the environment just as much when you shower as when you eat a hamburger.

Can you back up your armchair analysis, with, you know, a [citation]? Do you think it is inconsistent with the
study that found changing from a carnivorous to a vegetarian diet would confer roughly the same reduction of
greenhouse gas emissions as switching from an SUV to a Prius? (Eshel & Martin 2005) Or is there something
we should know about showers?

“
In fact, if we set an average shower’s greenhouse impact at about 2 units, a hamburger rates
about 3…while the impact for a serving of winter tomatoes is 50.

I thought you were against local food. Now you’re for it? Pick a side on this irrelevant and distracting separate
issue, please.

“
triply irrational to think that a meaningless protest behavior (not eating meat) is ever going to
make one whit of difference to anything.
Are you sure you understand how industries work? They don’t just make meat because they want to; they do it
because someone is going to buy it. If demand decreases, production will react. Sure, you’re just one person in
a sea of millions; but by that logic, voting in a presidential election is a meaningless protest too. Except you don’t
even have to leave your home to eat less meat.

“
Cabbage and berry pickers have a much shittier life than many a cow, yet vegetarians don’t
refuse to eat cabbage and tomatoes because the labor that produces them is a tick above
slavery.

I would like another [citation] for your claim that vegetarians do not consider workers’ rights in their buying
decisions.

“
In fact that study only established a 95% chance that the differential was somewhere between
6% and 38%…pay close attention: that means the data do not confirm a benefit any greater
than only 6% fewer deaths (it could be greater, but we don’t know).

I don’t want to alarm you, but every statistical finding has a confidence interval and many of them are wide. The
data do not confirm a benefit lower than 38% either.

So that was an interesting review of a single study. (Well, not really; you just got tripped up on statistical
interpretations of the findings, without even going into the soundness of the methods.) Have you looked at more
than one? Have you looked at a meta-analysis? The Wikipedia article on “vegetarian nutrition” has 47 sources.

“
while vegetarianism might give you a benefit of about 1.2 times lower mortality on one single
illness, and yet still makes no difference to when you die beyond at most one or two years, not
smoking definitely does give you a benefit of 10 times lower mortality rate on numerous
diseases, and for some diseases it’s 20 times or more.

And how much do your odds improve if you stop eating red herring? (Actually, it’s probably not negligible; fish
in general carry a risk of heavy-metal poisoning and smoked fish in particular raise the risk of stomach cancer,
because of smoking again.)

No conclusion? Well, I’ll write one: it’s amazing that you’re able to write at such length about so many issues
having done almost no research (or in the most important cases, zero) on any of them, and with a casual disdain
toward even the notion that factual claims ought to be resolved by evidence. What a sad day for skepticism.

R E P LY

R U SSELL MA R TI N • DEC EMBER 11, 2011, 11:10 AM

I’ll just leave this here. Rethinking the Meat-Guzzler

Also, it’s good to remember ​”it is always easier to deny reality than to watch your worldview get shattered”.

Shameful that a site about freethought would waste electrons publishing what amounts to the equivalent of
religious apologetics in regards to eating tortured, environment killing, factory farmed meat.

R E P LY

K G • DECEMBER 11, 2011, 12:33 PM

I wonder if it has occurred to Richard Carrier that perhaps vegetarians in general do not treat meat-eaters as
pariahs because they do not make the error he attributes to them of regarding non-human animals as people; and
although they prefer not to eat meat, and in many cases would prefer others not to eat meat, nonetheless admit
that it’s possible to disagree with their views and still be a decent human being. But no; that would be a rational,
civilized attitude to a difference in ethical judgment, and Carrier assures us that vegetarians are irrational.

R E P LY

S AIN T GAS OLIN E • DECEMBER 11, 2011, 3:47 PM

Brief response to your claim about the global warming effects:

1. The initial debate was over whether it is ethical to become a vegetarian. If everyone in the world could and
did become a vegetarian, that would significantly improve greenhouse gas emissions. You could not then
arbitrarily limit your investigation only to modern factory farms and neglect meat consumption over the entire
world.

2. Your entire argument is a red herring. I claimed that eating meat contributes to global warming. You then cite
a statistic that the total impact meat has on global warming is 18%, arguing that it is closer to 2% if we only
include modern factory farms. Guess what? At 2%, eating meat still contributes to global warming. You have not
proven your case!
3. You say:
“…what gets used for animal husbandry (e.g. fertilizing pastures) would still be used if the same land were used
for crops (in fact crops are more fertilizer intensive), so this is not in fact anything we’d get back if we stopped
animal farming. And when you subtract that element, too, now you end up with just 6% of manmade emissions
coming from actual animal farming…”
Why is it you think that if we stopped animal farming, we’d then use that land for crops? I find that a dubious
assumption, because the only reason we use so much land for crops is because we use it as feed for animals.
Am I misreading your argument here? It doesn’t seem to me you can just subtract this element.

4. Finally, in regards to your point that encouraging vegetarianism and veganism wouldn’t help, and we should
therefore seek other solutions that are more likely to work (i.e., when you advise us to learn game theory). You
compare it to voting for a third party candidate. (I’d argue that it’s more like voting in general, as your individual
vote is quite negligible and the two viable parties are practically clones of each other, but that’s an entirely
separate debate!) I think the problem with your argument here is that game theory is not an ethical theory, and I
think many ethical theories wouldn’t require an action to have a worldwide, far-ranging positive effect to be
considered ethical. The fact is, if vegetarianism or veganism were universalized, the world would probably be a
better place in terms of environmental damage, animal suffering, and so on. So yes, you argue that it is “rational”
to try actions that would actually be effective. (Although, by your own admission, factory farming contributes 2%
to global warming, among other environmental problems, and therefore eating less meat or no meat would be
effective!) But that does not mean that the ETHICAL thing to do is something that must be realizable. It would
be quite ETHICAL if everyone were to stop killing each other. The fact that this is not realizable doesn’t make it
unethical.

R E P LY

RICH ARD CARRIER • DECEMBER 13, 2011, 10:56 AM

“If everyone in the world could and did become a vegetarian, that would significantly
improve greenhouse gas emissions.”

No, it wouldn’t. That’s my point. The data simply don’t support that conclusion, not least
because not eating meat results in picking up other behaviors to replace it that causes the
same or greater emissions. The net effect is simply negligible.

This is the number one most common error committed by environmentalists with an obsession
against some particular industry: they don’t stop to consider what the effect will be of ending
that industry. Some behavior will replace it. Will that behavior actually produce fewer
emissions? By how much?

The number two most common error is a failure to consider the realistic prospect of ending
an industry vs. improving its efficiency. Ending an industry is almost always a pipe dream. Not
least because now a major consumer driving industry expansion worldwide is China, and
sorry, but our influence on the populace of China is a tick above zilch. Whereas an innovation
that improves efficiency pricks up everyone’s ears the world over. The Chinese are as
interested in spending less and making more money as anyone. So ongoing work to derive
usable energy from cattle methane production, which turns shit into cash at great reduction in
emissions (compared to using that shit as fertilizer), is something you should support.
Vegetarianism, not. You may as well vote for Nader in 2000. Just look what that did to us.
The number three most common error is sucking at math. All activity produces greenhouse
gases. Just your breathing does. Animals do. The earth by itself does. The very rocks
produce emissions. As well as all the other things we do (from drive to shower to turning on
the lights to manufacturing medical instruments to mining metal, to what have you). Thus
saying “it produces emissions, therefore it’s bad” is retarded. Even cavemen produced
greenhouse gas emissions…before they even invented fire! That’s why a 2% emission share
is insignificant. If you want to worry about emission levels, there are far more important
industries to focus on, especially the power sector (coal burning) and the transportation
sector (cars and trucks and planes and ships and trains).

Although, again, even pedestrians and bicyclists produce emissions: a bicycle is not even ten
times more emissions-efficient than a high-mileage car, and a car moves far more
weight than a bicycle, e.g. furniture, bags of groceries, emergency equipment, and is far faster
and safer to boot, and all-weather, and more suitable for anyone tired, handicapped, injured,
or ill, e.g. if you have to take someone to a hospital, you’re screwed if all you have is a
bicycle. So within the “car sector” bicycles would produce 10% emissions if we replaced all
transport in the U.S. with bicycles and other man-powered vehicles, and since the transport
sector produces something like 27% of U.S. emissions, 10% of 27% is 2.7%, it follows that
eliminating the transportation industry would produce more emissions than eating meat!
Granted, that calculation assumes all transport is high-mileage, but that’s precisely why we
should aim to make that so. The point is, everything produces emissions, so perspective is in
order.

“I find that a dubious assumption, because the only reason we use so much land for
crops is because we use it as feed for animals.”

Not that much land is used “to produce feed for animals” because most “feed for animals” is
the waste product from land used to produce “feed for people.” If we got rid of the animals,
we’d have all that waste and we’d have to dispose of it somehow and it would just produce
emissions in the process (even if we just left it lying around somewhere). Moreover, while we
could divert then some of the supplementary food to people, that would barely equal the food
needed to replace the meat (and dairy), and yet we need the hundreds of other non-food
products we get from animals (especially but not only fertilizer for human-consumption
crops), which we’d have to generate agriculturally or synthetically, either way by massive
emissions generation, and no doubt land cultivation. And to top it all off, unless you intend to
become Stalin and shoot people who don’t comply with your wishes, land owners stuck with
land they can’t grow meat on, will use that land for something else. Most likely, a cash crop.
All of that is why eliminating the manure does not eliminate the emissions associated with it.
By contrast, making manure more efficient (e.g. by taking unused manure and generating
electrical power with it using a low emissions process) is something a landowner will readily
get behind because it makes money out of stuff he otherwise already has, and in fact could
make animals into an emissions sink, i.e. by replacing the high-emissions coal production of
electricity, in relative effect a biomass facility subtracts emissions rather than adds them. It’s
obvious what is the better plan to promote: the elimination of meat production, or the
implementation of biomass power production. One of those has a chance of succeeding. The
other has none. Exactly the point I made.

…the two viable parties are practically clones of each other

That’s another irrational myth, which is doubly irrational coming from an atheist (I’m not
assuming you are an atheist, I’m just making the point “if you are”). The single most important
thing a president does is appoint members to the Supreme Court. There is absolutely no
sense whatever in which the two parties are clones of each other when assessing the effect of
that one variable, which is huge (once a seat is filled it stays filled for fifty years, thus it’s the
most powerful thing a President can ever do and the more he is in office the more he can
exercise that power). The Bush administration almost took over the Supreme Court. They
are just one justice away from a majority opposition to freedom of religion, separation of
church and state, and free speech, among other things. Your rights hang in the balance. The
second most important thing a president does is appoint people to run the many departments
of the Federal government. Republicans appoint party-dogmatic incompetent cronies,
because for them holding office is about power (remember Brownie?), whereas Democrats
appoint competent professionals who believing in increasing efficiency and defending
American liberties, because for them holding office is about competence and responsibility
(although their second criterion is cronyism, they don’t let that supplant the first criterion: are
they skilled and knowledgeable and experienced and care about doing a good job and not
trampling American liberties). That’s why Clinton balanced the budget and Bush blew it out
of the water: Clinton devoted considerable attention to trimming the federal government and
decreasing its cost by increasing its efficiency; Obama has been re-implementing those same
policies that Bush put a stop to. You don’t hear about this because the press doesn’t report
on it. Yet it’s the second most important way a president affects us, and on this measure
there is again a huge difference between the two parties. Even their attitude toward war
differs substantially: compare Iraq with Libya, just in terms of American lives lost and money
spent. Though both are hawks, that doesn’t make them even remotely the same in total
effect. You can find similar differences almost across the board, e.g. both politic too much in
writing bills and both are in the pocket of moneyed interests, and yet the Democrats still
believe in compromise and negotiation, whereas the Republicans do not. The difference is
that bills produced by Democrats, for all their faults, are less harmful to society overall, and
more gets done by them than by Republicans. I could go on. But the point is, to say a vote
doesn’t count because there is no difference between the two parties is rank bullshit.

…game theory is not an ethical theory…

Game theory is the foundation of all true ethical theories. This has been well understood by
scientists studying the biological and cultural evolution of morality now for some time. See my
selection of books on the subject, as well as (more directly): Game Theory and the
Social Contract Vol. 1 (MIT Press, 1994) and Vol. 2 (MIT Press, 1998).

The reason you should heed it is that it works. Proposals that benefit both business and the
environment are the proposals most likely to be implemented and widely effected. In fact, by
a large margin. The issue is also not analogous to murder, where each murder is a moral evil,
because eating meat is not comparable to murder, in fact it is ethically neutral when one
attends to humane treatment and efficiency. Thus advocating the elimination of meat does
nothing even if realized, and also does nothing because it will never be realized. Whereas
advocating improved efficiency and treatment does a lot, and not least because it will be
realized, in fact it is already being realized. And we could have a lot more if we turned our
advocacy to that instead of useless gestures. The analogy is thus more comparable to this:
you can try to stop violence by telling them we should all just believe in peace and love, or
you can stop violence by finding behaviors that mutually benefit the perpetrator and victim,
e.g. solutions to conflicts that benefit both parties. In other words, actually solving their
problem. One of those strategies works and thus is worth pursuing. The other doesn’t, and
 therefore isn’t.

R E P LY

JAMES C R OF T • D EC EMBER 1 1 , 201 1 , 7:27 P M

I was glad to find this, as the morality of my own decision to eat meat has been bothering me for some time now,
and it has been a source of some discussion in the Humanist community as to whether to embrace vegetarianism
as an institution. I think your analyses of the nature of factory farming and the environmental costs are extremely
valuable, and I look forward to using some of the data you present next time I discuss the issue.

Where I think your response is weakest, though, is when you address the potential moral requirement to be
compassionate toward animals (which, troubling for me, is the most salient issue in my mind). You argue that we
should not anthropomorphize animals in ways which mislead us regarding our moral responsibilities towards
them. Agreed. But you then seem to jump from that point to the idea that “being a vegetarian out of
“compassion” is irrational”.

This is a non sequitur. We may be morally required to be compassionate toward animals as animals, even
understanding that they are not much like human beings. You yourself seem to accept we have some moral
responsibilities toward animals when you say “eating animals is fine as long as you aren’t torturing them”. But the
question is easily posed, if torturing animals is wrong, why is killing them to eat them, when it is not absolutely
necessary, not wrong? Your response to the Christian on godcontention.org also fails to address this potential
criticism. It seems to me many intelligent vegetarians understand that killing an animal to consume it, when you
could get food from non-animal sources, is not as bad as killing a person, but still wrong (because it causes pain
and unnecessary suffering, including death, to the animal).

There are other problems in your argument (such as the establishment of a false dilemma in your discussion of
vegetarian’s response to meat eaters, and a rather odd statement on godcontention.org that “unlike humans, pigs
have evolved to be consumed” – what moral relevance does that have, and this seems a strange view of
evolution). But the main problem I see if this failure to really grapple with the “why cause animals unnecessary
suffering?” question.

In short, why is it wrong to torture animals, as you grant, but not wrong to kill them?

R E P LY

STA N BR OOK S • DEC EMBER 11, 2011, 11:57 P M

First let me say I’m so glad to see you here at FTB, what a welcome addition.

Secondly, thanks for a rational, well thought out article. I gave up some years ago arguing with vegans (a belief
that is akin to a religion for many adherents) or vegetarians (who for the most part are simply on a restricted diet)
but it is really nice to have a sensible, understandable and compact resource to call upon on the rare instances I
find myself in an argument about the benefits of vegetarianism. Much appreciated.

R E P LY
 R OBIN • DECEMBER 12, 2011, 12:00 AM

You make it sound like clean floors and some fresh air is enough to make factory farming ethical and moral. But
you conveniently leave out everything else. Animals are bred to the point where their anatomy can’t support their
weight. 75% of all factory farmed chickens have walking impairment from their grotesque bodies and clearly
show that they are in pain. 4% of all chickens die from sudden death syndrome, another 5% from ascites (fluids
filling up the body). This doesn’t exist in wild chickens. Factory farmed chickens live their entire 42 day long
lives on concrete floors and 24 hour light to maximize their growth. They are pushed to the brink of death
without going over the edge and of course with the aide of medicines. Ultimately the corporation ONLY care
about the profit. No one has to go on about this topic to realize factory farming is unethical and immoral. If this
doesn’t convince you there is a lot more data confirming the cruelty that goes on.

“The grain used to feed cattle, for instance, amounts to 98% of the water consumption involved in beef and dairy
production ”

Exactly. It takes a tremendous amount of water, space, and energy to make the feed for the animals we
consume. For every pound of beef it takes 2,400 gallons of water. For one pound of vegetables about 2 gallons.
It takes 20 times more fossil fuels to make one pound of beef compared to one pound of vegetables.

I have yet to see a single study saying that the consumption of meat have any benefits over a vegan diet. There
are tremendously many more benefits than just heart disease prevention. Vegans may only live a few more years
than meat eaters, but will enjoy the last two decades of their lives more than meat eaters. It’s not only about
length of life, but quality of life.

“1.2 times lower mortality on one single illness”

Considering heart disease is a leading cause of death in America I wouldn’t disregard the 20% lower chance of
dying. If everybody were vegans we could have saved 120,000 people last year. And you forgot to mention the
numerous studies that say a vegan diet can prevent and reverse many cancers.

Anyways, I disagree with pretty much everything you blogged about.

R E P LY

H OVER F R OG • DEC EMBER 12, 2011, 3:40 AM

I like to live my life on the principle of least harm. I prefer not to push old ladies into traffic, torture puppies or
eat meat (not that they are in any way equivalent). I view the ethics of eating meat as being largely morally
neutral. It is a personal choice. Like having sex with members of the same or a different sex it makes no
difference to me but I’m not about to switch my preference.

A lot of the common arguments for meat eating and for vegetarianvegan diets are blown out of all proportion.
The fact though (and the evidence supports this) is that most people in the west eat too much meat to have a
healthy diet. Eating less meat (eating less in general) would improve their health and longevity. They should also
drink plenty of water and exercise a bit more than they are. Oh and give up smoking. It’s a filthy habit.

A lot of veggies and meat eaters spend their time arguing over the absolute value of their own preference, not
admitting that it is merely a preference.
My preference may well be irrational though I think that they are. I don’t like the smell of meat, I don’t like the
idea of eating something that used to walk around (or swim around) and I don’t like the processing and storage
practices even though you say they are much better than they were years ago or how PETA portray them. I
figure that my irrational actions (if they are actually irrational) don’t hurt anyone, not even me, so what is the
harm?

R E P LY

P R OGJOH N • DECEMBER 12, 2011, 8:01 AM

If we all turned vegetarian almost all farm animals would be killed, they are only alive so we can eat them. So
how does turning vegetarian help animals?

As an aside, a friend has a farm on which he keeps 16,000 chickens in a huge shed. They are free to go in or out
all day onto a 40 acre area of grassland set aside for them, but almost all choose to stay inside the shed where
they feel safe. Animals are not people and have completely different requirements for contentment, most farmers
pander to these as it improves productivity.

R E P LY

TEDDY MD • DECEMBER 12, 2011, 9 :12 AM

I think a widely prevalent concept (albeit unspoken) throughout this post is the false equivalence between the
PITA crowd and vegetarians in general. Many rational vegetarians for example are proponents for ethical animal
research as well as genetically modified crops. Meanwhile, the PITA crowd is anti-science, pro-violence, and
has a possible religious fanaticism for animal welfare. Those folks absolutely need to be challenged though
claiming they represent all vegetarians is really more of a straw man argument. Yes, pro science vegetarians are a
minority but we are likely very much so enriched on this forum and you might do well in future posts to
distinguish between the two camps.

You also have other poor rhetorical arguments in your post including red herrings (smoking), cherry picking
(ignoring environmental effects of fisheries, and comparing Iowa beef to winter tomatoes), bad statistics (using
the 6% lower limit of a 95% confidence range), poor epidemiology (6% of a widely prevalent disease is in fact
very important!), bad medicine (heart disease elevation is caused by obesity not other diseases being cured) and
overall ambiguity (what exact diet are you proposing?).

Please ground your thread with a real recommendation that can be supported or disproven. There is a world of
a difference between eating meat once a week and 2-3 times per day and between Blue Fin Tuna and Iowa
beef.

Thanks,
Teddy MD

PS Claiming that eating meat is ethical because animal abuse only happens occasionally may not not be as
convincing of an argument as you seem to think.
R E P LY

GILGAMES H • DECEMBER 12, 2011, 10:51 AM

This was a very interesting post, and I am glad to have something from you that I may disagree with. I’m not
going to argue about the ethics since I don’t disagree there, and the environmental impact isn’t a large enough
reason to change lifestyles (compared to, say, driving a more efficient car). But there are some things about the
health benefits that do not seem quite right.

One thing I noticed from the study you mentioned is a comparison of the body mass indices between vegetarians
and omnivores; while the latter were fatter, the average BMI of those omnivores (~25) is significantly lower than
it is for the average American (~28). Americans and other affluent nations have been getting fatter, and that is
hard to do on a vegan diet.

Nonetheless, the study tried to normalize for the confounding factor of BMI, and vegans/vegetarians are usually
leaner. This means that when you ignore the benefits of the leaner diet, there is still that 24% improvement;
compare it then to the average American with their higher weight, and it seems vegetarians are looking good.

As for the risks of the vegan/vegetarian diet, the easy solution is variety. If you just eat fruits, you’re doomed; if
you just eat carrots, you’re doomed. If you eat a variety, which all diets should include, then you are OK for the
most part. The vitamin deficiencies can be a problem, though the only one that vegans cannot really get is B12.
However, I have a cheap multi-vitamin that costs 2 cents a pill. Hardly a bad cost. I should note that vegans tend
to fall into quackery and think vitamins up the wazoo is great, but I know that, at best, you get expensive pee.
Nonetheless, with a variety of foods and a cheap multi-vitamin, the risks are avoided.

There are some other sources I have been going through, and best I can tell it isn’t quackery. There is the diet
recommended by Dr. Esselstyn in “Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease” which causes cholesterol numbers to
become so low that future heart problems are significantly reduced (he claims you become heart-attack proof,
but such a strong word is beyond what the evidence can really justify). Supplementing this is the book “The
China Study” which is a summary of a lot of published papers examining diets in China and showing vegan
lifestyles conferred notable improvements in cancer risk as well as in heart-related problems. I have not found
material in the peer-review literature showing these studies to be bunk, but I am no expert. I have also talked
with a dietitian about this lifestyle, and he agrees that, after addressing the risks mentioned above, this is good
stuff.

And for those vegetarians that smoke: get your nicotine from eggplants instead (though you need a lot of them).

R E P LY

RICH ARD CARRIER • DECEMBER 13, 2011, 9 :54 AM

Gilgamesh, “getting fatter” is a diet-wide problem, not a meat problem. Eating a healthy diet
with meat in it is fine. You don’t have to jump all the way to vegetarianism to get the same
effect. Indeed, as you are far more likely to maintain a balanced diet than a pleasure-deprived
and management-heavy vegetarian one, vegetarianism is actually a bad medical
recommendation. You should advise people to take up healthy diets that they have a high
probability of maintaining. If you are interested in maximum social benefit, that is. That’s just
 basic statistics. Moreover, it is crucial to health that you exercise. If you keep the weight
off only by eating vegetarian, that is a net bad for your health. If you maintain weight by
consuming healthy high energy meat as part of a balanced diet and then exercising in
proportion, that is a net good for your health.

As for the “China study” see myearlier comment and the comment it links to. Then read
the critiques of China Study, which do not make it look like a credible study to me. It
commits all the standard errors that make such work useless to the public, all driven by an
obsessive bias against meat. See The Truth about the China Study (which notes, among
other things, that the data in the study itself don’t support what it’s authors claim), The China
Study: Fact or Fallacy (which is pretty thorough), Harriet Hall on The China Study
(she’s a notable skeptic with an M.D.), and The China Study vs. The China Study (pretty
devastating, and yet critically checks the critics, too).

R E P LY

R OR K • DECEMBER 12, 2011, 2:09 PM

I think you admitted the environment is negatively impacted, just not much as someone else said. If so, eating
less is better. Not sure you admitted that. It’s not a sin to eat meat in my book, but less would help. I usually try
to think of how much land I could take out of agriculture, and how much less fertilizer might be used. Dose is
what matters.
Oh, I wondered how much of the effects of cattle grazing on national forest land you have personally seen or
heard of.

Similarly for the health effects, less might be better for most people in the U.S.

On the ethics part, I conclude it is ethical to kill and eat humans, and there’s the extra plus of gaining an
evolutionary advantage. I suggest eating those less related to you. I eat meat. Three deer inhabit my freezer,
along with domestic turkey, ducks, chickens and rabbits, all of which I personally killed.

R E P LY

MA TT • DECEMBER 12, 2011, 2:14 PM

1)
This writer is simply angered about vegetarians being different. There is very little evidence of what he is saying,
it is simply bitching. He makes endless assumptions that come from nowhere
just from his own little head. Vegetarians are delusional because they hang out with meat eaters? It doesn’t take
much of a mind to think this one through. People who consume meat don’t directly kill the animals they eat
(usually). Its not like hanging out with the “child molester”. It is true that I don’t want to befriend a person who
kills animals directly but i understand that our culture and society has a major influence on how each of us eats
and I simply treat people who eat meat as individuals who have yet to understand the true awfulness and
environmental damage they support.

2)
His sources are simply based on blog posts and simple news articles.
3)
It is also a weak argument to state that corporate farming is more efficient. It might be efficient in the one sense
that it distributes the food “demanded” at all times of the year better but efficiency doesn’t account for the
damage done to the world, the humans and the ecosystems. Our corporatization of the world has been one of
the direct cause of obesity (see Japan as a great example).

4)
Dogs aren’t carnivores

5)
vegetarians don’t necessarily DEMAND localization of food. Being vegetarian and being an environmentalist can
be two completely different things, they just happent to work on similar issues at the same time on occasion.

6)
Even from his very own source he uses about water footprint where he said he based almost all of his research
and math on….he made this article sound like it supported the consumption and expansion of this consumption
of meat around the world when really, in this direct article he used, it literally has an entire paragraph in the
conclusion stating: “Managing the demand for animal products by promoting a dietary shift away from a meat-
rich diet will be an
inevitable component in the environmental policy of governments”. This report is mostly about the loss of
freshwater and the damage meat production has on water supply. haha

7)
I looked at the “study” he uses in the last section on mortality. He used one study and it is a very very flawed
study. The “study” he talks about is a compilation of 5 studies from all different groups around the world. You
can’t combine them all into one and say “Ta daaaaa”. They are each prospective cohort studies and very
specific towards groups of people (7th day Adventists, British Vegetarian Shoppers magazine subscribers etc.)
They are each very different from each other and are certainly very different from the general population of
vegetarians.
Second, doing studies on mortality disregards the entire point of my argument for vegetarianism. It isn’t about
who dies first, who outlasts the other. It is about quality of life or more specifically life-years lost to the
consumption of meat over time. Unfortunately, only until recently has their been studies funded by the US
government on vegetarianism.

R E P LY

SU N N Y DA LE75 • DEC EMBER 12, 2011, 3:31 P M

>The strong drive they have to maintain their lifestyle seems attached to a belief that animal lives are “only slightly
less valuable” than human lives and that killing them is a revoltingly awful thing to do.<

-That's the impression I've gotten from the few vegetarians I've met. Personally, I see animal consumption as
neither good nor evil (inhumane treatment and torture of animals is a far different story and I abhor both). Using
logic that maintains animals having value slightly less than humans, shouldn't vegetarians argue to stop animals
from consuming one another? What's the difference between my consumption of a salmon fillet and a bear
consuming the same fish? Both are done for survival. Should I not eat the fish simply b/c I can consider the
implications of eating an animal?
R E P LY

GR UMP Y AN TITH EIS T • D EC EMBER 1 2, 201 1 , 4:39 P M

I’ve had this same sort of discussion so many times, and I’ve done my own entry on my blog on the subject. I’m
actually one of those people who is thoroughly unimpressed by appeals to emotion and appeals to environmental
concerns with regards to vegetarianism and veganism. I took a slightly different approach than you did and
specifically focused more on the fact that there are ways to address those issues without having to give up those
foods. For instance, even if you’re concerned about the cruelty of factory farms (and such things do exist), that’s
fine… that’s reason to support better regulation thereof, purchase meat from farms which do not engage in such
practices. Yes, it means having to do a lot of homework and probably having to spend a great deal more money,
but it is actually a movement which could gain better traction because you’re not forcing people out of their
comfort zone into an entirely new diet, but into some shift in the balance thereof.

Most of the “health” arguments I hear are about people comparing the stereotypical American diet with
vegetarian/vegan diets, and the problem here is that the stereotypical American diet would qualify as *excessive*
meat consumption, which is a very good way to skew the results. If you try to do the same comparison for a
variety of populations in other countries which tend to have a more balanced load of proteins, I don’t think
you’d find the same trend.

The thing that kind of surprises people whenever I get into these arguments is that they don’t expect me, of all
people, to weigh in in this fashion… mainly because I’m a vegetarian myself. And my own reason for
vegetarianism is pretty simple — I eat what I happen to like. I grew up in a part of the world and in a culture
which has been vegetarian for a very long time, and as a result I, like most people, am pretty well conditioned to
like that kind of food.

About the only solid argument that I can’t really refute, only because I can attest to it myself is that vegetarianism
is generally lower on the cost of living scale. Of course, this is only true within some boundaries. It is not as likely
to be true if you go as far in your activism to include all sorts of organically or locally grown goods, or you feel
the need to buy all sorts of exotic ingredients from health food shops and so on. At that point, you’re going into
the realm of the unsupportable. There are better ways to handle it.

R E P LY

JIM • DECEMBER 12, 2011, 4:53 PM

I agree that there is nothing immoral about eating meat. I believe it was national geographic that did a
documentary on what happens when predators are taken out of an environment: the herbivores over eat and ruin
ecosystems. This happened at Yellowstone: what was once lush in the early 20th century had become barren by
the 90s. Wolves were reintroduced. They killed the excessive deer, and the ecosystem recovered. Hence, meat
eaters are necessary and herbivores shouldn’t be made into idealized animals.

I disagree with the morality of industrial farming: it uses far too many antibiotics (increasing the number of drug
resistance bacteria), it uses too many hormones (which get excreted and get into water supplies, and because of
antibiotic ineffectiveness, non organic meat is flushed with ammonia to kill disease. The conditions, contrary to
the post, are immoral too. Commercial farms get as many animals as possible next to one another. You know,
the profit motive that drive all corporations. Overcrowding is a problem. That is why antibiotics have to be used
in chicken farming. Crowding leads to epidemic disease.

I suggest that everyone enjoy their meat. I do. But, I buy meat from pasture raised animals. It cost more, but
tastes better and is more nutritious. (More nutritious because cows evolved eating grass; chickens evolved eating
bugs.) For me, the quality of life of the animal is just as important. Life in a pasture is better than life in a cage.
Eating pasture raised is kind of a no brainer.

R E P LY

JT5 12 • D EC EMBER 1 2, 201 1 , 5:44 P M

@Richard: The pooled analysis by Key et al that you cited suffers from the inclusion of the Health Food
Shoppers Study, which was of such poor quality that I’m not sure it deserves to be called a “study.” I thought
that there has been a more recent pooled analysis that excluded this study, and included a recent large European
cohort study, but I can’t seem to find it right now in Pubmed.

Although not a study of vegetarians per se, Sinha et al [1] recently studied the effect of consuming red,
processed, and white meat on all-cause and cause-specific mortality in a huge US cohort. Men and women in
the highest vs the lowest quintile of red meat intake had, respectively, 31% and 36% percent higher risk of death
from all causes combined, with a highly significant monotonic trend across quintiles. There were modest
increases in risk for processed meats and modest decreases in risk for white meat.

@Gilgamesh: The China Health Study was of dubious quality as well, being a cross-sectional ecologic study.
Google “ecologic(al) fallacy” for details.

Jay

1. Sinha R, et al. Meat Intake and Mortality: A Prospective Study of Over Half a Million People.Arch Intern
Med. 2009; 169(6):562–571.

R E P LY

GILGAMES H • DECEMBER 12, 2011, 8:48 PM

@jt512
I cannot comment on your comments about one of the vegetarian studies, so I’ll skip to your
quick statement about the China Study. However, I think the study you were looking for that
excluded the Health Food Shoppers Study is Keys et al. Mortality in vegetarians and
nonvegetarians: detailed findings from a collaborative analysis of 5 prospective studies. Am J
Clin Nutr. 1999 Sep;70(3 Suppl):516S-524S.

I agree that an ecological study is not sufficient to prove causation. It can strongly show
correlations, however, and if a cause can be provided then it gains support. And in particular,
before this study was done one of the researchers, T. Colin Campbell, had done rat and mice
research showing a correlation between certain cancers and the protein casein (from milk)
and also showed the mechanism for why it could be a promoter of the disease. Since there is
a mechanism and there are the correlations from the China Study, then it does not commit the
ecological fallacy.

So, I think you are dismissing the research on this point rather hastily.

Also, the study you cite about differences in types of meat consumption, there is the issue that
high meat protein diets can also increase disease risks, so switching from higher fat to higher
protein meat diets could cause a net wash, and the rather modest differences in the mortality
rates of these diets would seem to suggest that that is the case.

R E P LY

RICH ARD CARRIER • DECEMBER 13, 2011, 9 :21

AM

The problem with all these kinds of arguments is that there are disease and
cancer risks associated with nearly every food. Thus shifting diet around
often has no net effect, which is my point. Hence this is exactly the result
we find when we look at lifetime diet effects on mortality: most studies
show no effect at all, and even the most promising show only a negligible
effect. Obsessing over single variables like “milk” is therefore a waste of
time. Or “red meat” even. When compared to real disease factors, like
smoking, it just looks ridiculous. When normal milk or moderate red meat
consumption increases mortality by more than three years, be concerned.
Until then, face reality: it’s just insignificant. That’s why looking at a 33%
increased risk of a disease is to obsess too much. If it’s 200%, then you
have a serious problem. 100%, something to ponder. But 33% washes
out in the sea of random variables affecting mortality.

That’s the result of the studies on heart attack: a 33% increase in heart
attack might sound bad until you look at actual mortality and find people
who avoid that factor die at basically the same age on average anyway, so
the fact that their deaths are 33% more often from that kind of heart
attack actually means nothing. Were it not that, it just would have been
something else. Cancer risks are similar: get rid of one kind, and you just
get another. That’s why you can’t obsess over single diseases like that
(unless the factor is huge, hence the point of my smoking comparison).
You have to look at total mortality (and life quality, although that is usually
always comparable unless you are suffering from a much more severe
causal agent, like processed tobacco or plutonium). When you see
mortality is not significantly altered, then it just doesn’t matter whether
there is a 33% increase in a certain kind of heart attack or a certain kind
of cancer, because clearly removing one agent just introduces another
(thus causing zero net effect in mortality).

R E P LY
 RICH ARD CARRIER • DECEMBER 13, 2011, 9 :30 AM

Jt512, see my related comment. The Sinha study only got those results for “high intake” of
red meat (and processed meat, e.g. hot dogs), not moderate (normal) consumption. The
latter had no appreciable effect on mortality. Which is exactly my point. Eat healthy. Then
meat is irrelevant.

R E P LY

JT 5 12 • MAR C H 1 6 , 201 2, 3:36 P M

Richard Carrier wrote (December 13, 2011):

“
Jt512, see my related comment. The Sinha study only got those results for
“high intake” of red meat (and processed meat, e.g. hot dogs), not moderate
(normal) consumption. The latter had no appreciable effect on mortality.
Which is exactly my point. Eat healthy. Then meat is irrelevant.

Update: A new large-scale prospective cohort study has found that there is a significant linear
positive relationship between the amount of red meat consumed and death rates from heart
disease, cancer, and all causes. Compared with the lowest quintile of red meat intake, each
higher quintile had a significantly higher risk of death.

This study suggests that there is no good level of red meat intake. The less red meat one eats,
the better.

R E P LY

R IC H AR D C AR R IER • MAR C H 1 6 , 201 2, 7:22 P M

Can you cite the study so I can go read it?

(Make sure you aren’t talking about the same study already addressed in
previous comments.)

R E P LY

J T 5 1 2 • M A R C H 1 7, 2 0 1 2 , 1 2 : 0 2 A M
Sorry, I meant to. Must have spaced it out.

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/archinternmed.2011.2287

R E P LY

RICH ARD CARRIER • MARCH 18, 2012, 1:02 PM

Regarding what you just cited, “Red Meat Consumption and

Mortality: Results From 2 Prospective Cohort Studies” by Pan et al.
(Archives of Internal Medicine, March 12, 2012):

This only covers red meat, not all meat or animal products (in fact, the
study says consumption of other meats reduced mortality, i.e. it made
people live longer), and it only found a 1.07-1.20 difference in overall
mortality. This is a variance I find suspicious; that looks like they are
tweaking things–they chose a 95% confidence interval, which is oddly
low; it means there is a 1 in 20 chance their results are false, which with a
cohort in the tens of thousands is a suspicious choice for them to make.
With a data-set that large, you should be able to do a 99% or higher CI.
So why didn’t they? And what are the results at that CI? I suspect the
answer is that no arguable difference in mortality was shown at 99% CI,
so they chose 95% in order to get the number they wanted.

At 95% they found the difference could be as low as 7%, which means,
for example, if average life expectancy is 78, someone who eats a serving
of red meat every day of their life (which is not advisable anyway; that is
excessive), or more, will die on average at 72. That’s not exactly a huge
difference. And remember, this was at 95% CI. Mathematically, this
difference will shrink at 99% CI (I suspect it will shrink to near zero, or to
only a one or two year difference in mortality, just as all other studies have
shown).

Worse, their control was not vegetarians, but low-red-meat consumers

(people who ate one red meat serving every two days, or less). Which
means in fact this study does not even attempt to show any difference in
mortality between non-red-meat eaters and reasonable red-meat-eaters.
That difference was probably zero.

This is why it is important to actually read these studies, before drawing

conclusions from them. Which was one of the very points in my original
post.

R E P LY

JT 5 12 • MAR C H 20, 201 2, 3:1 3 P M

Regarding “Red Meat Consumption and Mortality: Results From 2 Prospective
Cohort Studies” by Pan et al. (Archives of Internal Medicine, March 12, 2012), you
(Richard) wrote:

“
This [study] only covers red meat . . .

Correct. As I stated, I was updating my earlier post about the findings about red meat from
the Sinha study, which found a significant monotonic trend between quintile of red meat
intake and mortality. Although the trend was significant, you objected that mortality was only
significantly different for the 5th quintile of red meat intake vs. the first. In contrast, in the new
study (Pan et al), mortality was found to be greater for every quintile of intake compared with
the first. Also, the investigators convincingly demonstrated a linear does-response relationship
between red meat intake and mortality.

[I]n fact, the study says consumption of other meats reduced mortality . . .

“
To be clear, the study showed that replacing red meat in the diet with other sources of
protein would reduce total mortality. Although not a finding about vegetarian diets per se, it is
intriguing that the greatest reduction in mortality was found for nuts. Replacing one serving per
day of red meat with one serving of nuts reduces mortality by 19%, compared with 7% for
fish, and 14% for poultry.

“
[I]t only found a 1.07-1.20 difference in overall mortality. This is a variance I
find suspicious; that looks like they are tweaking things–they chose a 95%
confidence interval, which is oddly low . . .

It’s not odd at all, nor suspicious. The .05 level of significance has become a convention in
the field. It’s extremely rare to find any other level of significance used in the biomedical or
epidemiologic literature. And it has become standard procedure in nutritional epidemiology to
present 95% confidence intervals.

“
 “
It means there is a 1 in 20 chance their results are false . . .

It means that there is a 1 in 20 chance that their results are false if the null hypothesis is true.
On the other hand, the probability that their results are false; that is, the probability that the
null hypothesis is true, given their results, depends on the prior probability of the null
hypothesis and the Bayes factor. We can compute this! All we need is the Bayes factor,
which can be computed from data in the paper: the point estimate of the hazard ratio, the
width of the 95% confidence interval, and the total number of deaths in the cohort.

Using the appropriate values from the paper, the Bayes factor in favor of the null hypothesis
(that there is no association between the amount of unprocessed red meat consumed and
total mortality) is .025. The updated odds of the null hypothesis being true are thus .025 ×
(prior odds), or equivalently (prior odds)/40. Whatever your prior opinion about the
likelihood of red meat consumption not increasing mortality, you should now reduce that
likelihood by a factor of 40.

The Bayes factor in favor of the null hypothesis for processed red meat is a remarkable 2 ×
10^(-13). For any reasonable prior odds, the posterior odds that the null hypothesis is true is
almost homeopathically small. If we could be confident that the results of the paper are free
from systematic error, then this result would be conclusive, and ought to put an end to any
further conversation on the subject.

Of course the problem with observational studies of diet is that it is difficult to have that
degree of confidence in the results, since systematic errors, such as residual confounding, are
likely to be present.

I can provide details of my calculations of the Bayes factor elsewhere, if you’re really
interested.

“
[W]hat are the results at that CI [99%]? I suspect the answer is that no
arguable difference in mortality was shown at 99% CI, so they chose 95% in
order to get the number they wanted.

First of all, based on nothing more than a naive hunch, you’re impugning the integrity of the
most highly regarded research group in the field of nutritional epidemiology. Sheesh, search
Pubmed for “Willett w c OR Hu f b”.Willett, himself, literally wrote the book on nutritional
epidemiology.

Secondly, your suspicion is not supported by the data. We can easily calculate the 99% CI
from the 95% CI. The 99% CI for unprocessed red meat is (1.05, 1.22), which is not much
wider than the 95% CI, (1.07, 1.20), presented in the paper. Another simple calculation
reveals that the p-value for the hazard ratio for unprocessed red meat is 0.00003, which is
highly significant at the 99% level. Thus, the hazard ratio for unprocessed red meat is not a
borderline significant finding by any stretch of the imagination.

“
At 95% they found the difference could be as low as 7%, which means, for
example, if average life expectancy is 78, someone who eats a serving of red
meat every day of their life (which is not advisable anyway; that is excessive),
or more, will die on average at 72. That’s not exactly a huge difference.

Try telling that to someone who is 71.

“
And remember, this was at 95% CI. Mathematically, this difference will
shrink at 99% CI (I suspect it will shrink to near zero, or to only a one or two
year difference in mortality, just as all other studies have shown).

As I showed above, you were wrong about the hazard ratio shrinking to near zero at the
99% confidence level (and higher). I’m not sure how to translate that to an effect on life
expectancy, but it shouldn’t shrink to “near zero” either.

Also, when comparing this study to previous ones, you should keep in mind that this study is
the highest-quality study on the subject produced to date, including Sinha et al. In the present
study, the investigators updated subjects’ dietary data every four years. In contrast, all prior
studies relied on a single dietary assessment at baseline. Since people’s diets change over the
course of a lengthy follow-up study, repeated dietary assessment is more accurate, and hence
so are the observed relationships between dietary factors and disease or mortality.

“
Worse, their control was not vegetarians, but low-red-meat consumers
(people who ate one red meat serving every two days, or less). Which means
in fact this study does not even attempt to show any difference in mortality
between non-red-meat eaters and reasonable red-meat-eaters. That
difference was probably zero.

I agree that we cannot draw conclusions from this study about the effect on mortality of
eating less than a half-serving of red meat per day compared with eating no red meat at all.
However, similarly, you have no good evidence to believe that a half-serving (or less) of red
meat is “reasonable” consumption or that there would be no benefit to reducing intake
further.

Reliable comparisons between vegetarians and your hypothesized “reasonable” red meat
eaters should be possible once the Adventist Health Study II begins to report results.This is
a prospective follow-up study of a cohort of about 1 million Seventh Day Adventists, about
one-third of whom are vegetarians. It has all the strengths of the present study, including
repeated dietary assessment, plus the statistical advantages of a much larger cohort and, for
purposes of this hypothesis, a wider range of meat intake, especially at the low end.

Jay

R E P LY

RICHARD CARRIER • MARCH 26 , 2012, 4:45

PM

jt512:

“
I was updating my earlier post about the findings about red
meat from the Sinha study, which found a significant
monotonic trend between quintile of red meat intake and
mortality. Although the trend was significant, you objected
that mortality was only significantly different for the 5th
quintile of red meat intake vs. the first. In contrast, in the
new study (Pan et al), mortality was found to be greater for
every quintile of intake compared with the first

Except that the first corresponds to moderate red meat consumption (for
example, it matches my average rate of consumption of red meat). It
therefore does not show all red meat consumption increases mortality.
The study therefore has no relevance to vegetarianism.

“
Replacing one serving per day of red meat with one serving
of nuts reduces mortality by 19%, compared with 7% for
fish, and 14% for poultry.
Conclusion: we should eat more balanced diets. Exactly what I said in my
article. And here, nuts and chicken/turkey/duck are shown to be
important elements of that; likewise, our average red meat consumption
should be under two thirds of a pound a week (that’s a steak a week). I
quite agree.

“
It’s not odd at all, nor suspicious. The .05 level of
significance has become a convention in the field.

Which has been widely criticized because it entails 1 in every 20 of these

studies will be false (or in our case, what we are interested in is over-
estimation, and it is 1 in 40 that will show a greater effect than actually
exists).

Compare, again, the effects of smoking. It blows these results far out of
the water. That is a clear mortality agent. Red meat, by comparison is not
that significant; indeed, it’s comparatively minor even when consumed in
excess (and yes, in excess, there is an effect, to a very high probability;
but compared to smoking, again, even that effect is small, although not
insignificant; conclusion: moderate your red meat intake to reasonable
levels).

“
It’s extremely rare to find any other level of significance
used in the biomedical or epidemiologic literature.

Which, again, is producing hundreds of false results. Because thousands

of papers are being published every year, 1 in 20 of which are false–or 1
in 40 when we’re counting only those that over-report an effect–so we get
hundreds of false papers a year…so is this meat study one of them?
That’s why when the CI is this close to 1, a 95% standard is no longer so
reliable. It might pass the minimum bar of publication–but we already
know that that bar publishes hundreds of false results every year. So it’s
not exactly a standard to hold in high regard.

Whereas, if the effect were robust, it would remain strong even on a 99%
or 99.9% CI. (You do show, however, that it still holds a little at those
levels, or at least the first.)

“
 “
Using the appropriate values from the paper, the Bayes
factor in favor of the null hypothesis (that there is no
association between the amount of unprocessed red meat
consumed and total mortality) is .025. The updated odds of
the null hypothesis being true are thus .025 × (prior odds),
or equivalently (prior odds)/40. Whatever your prior
opinion about the likelihood of red meat consumption not
increasing mortality, you should now reduce that likelihood
by a factor of 40.

Please show me which values you are using to derive this result (with page
numbers, so I can check what you mean).

And explain what you mean by “not increasing mortality”; are you
including even a single day or minute lost, or are you only counting a
certain number of years lost as significant? And if so, at what number of
years are you drawing the line of significance?

“
I can provide details of my calculations of the Bayes factor
elsewhere, if you’re really interested.

I would be delighted. You can post a link here. I will find that very helpful.

“
Secondly, your suspicion is not supported by the data. We
can easily calculate the 99% CI from the 95% CI. The 99%
CI for unprocessed red meat is (1.05, 1.22), which is not
much wider than the 95% CI, (1.07, 1.20), presented in the
paper. Another simple calculation reveals that the p-value
for the hazard ratio for unprocessed red meat is 0.00003,
which is highly significant at the 99% level. Thus, the
hazard ratio for unprocessed red meat is not a borderline
significant finding by any stretch of the imagination.

A 5% difference in effect is not borderline?

“
 “
[Gaining four or five years is a small effect?] Try telling
that to someone who is 71.

And if we showed you could live a couple extra years if you starve
yourself every day by eating an undercount of calories, we should do that,
too? There are countless things we could do to add a mere few years to
our lifespans, all of which would substantially degrade our quality of life.
This includes avoiding occupational hazards (some jobs make a difference
of a few years to average lifespan; therefore no one should do them?),
geographic hazards (should we all move out of cities if it were shown that
our lifespans there are a few years shorter owing to small amounts of
inescapable air pollution?), and so on. Vegetarianism is simply not
advisable if all you get out of it is a couple of years. And of course, again,
this study didn’t show even that–all it shows is that you get those years (or
more, depending on how dietarily immoderate you otherwise were) if you
eat a healthy balanced diet of moderate levels of red meat and more fish
and poultry (and veggies etc.). It didn’t even measure the effect of not
eating red meat, much less the effect of eating no meat.

“
As I showed above, you were wrong about the hazard ratio
shrinking to near zero at the 99% confidence level (and
higher). I’m not sure how to translate that to an effect on
life expectancy, but it shouldn’t shrink to “near zero”
either.

You’re right, the numbers you calculated (reducing 1.07 to 1.05) were
better than I expected they’d come out to be. Although this is still not a
huge effect. Just four years or so. And that’s only from immoderate
consumption of only red meat (so reducing this to one steak a weak is
what gets you those four years; and reduction of other meats, no benefit,
or possibly even a net harm; thus this paper presents no argument for
vegetarianism).

“
I agree that we cannot draw conclusions from this study
about the effect on mortality of eating less than a half-
serving of red meat per day compared with eating no red
meat at all. However, similarly, you have no good evidence
 to believe that a half-serving (or less) of red meat is
“reasonable” consumption or that there would be no
benefit to reducing intake further.

No studies show any significant difference in mortality between

vegetarians and moderate meat consumers. Their mortality always comes
out near the same (differing by a couple of years at best). That’s evidence
enough (and the burden is always on the claimant anyway: if you claim to
have an amazing new life extension drug [“not eating meat”], the burden is
on you to present evidence of its powers, the burden is not on me to show
it doesn’t.]

Likewise, if reducing high red meat consumption to one steak a weak

gains you only 4 years, eliminating that one steak is unlikely to gain you
even that much (due to diminishing returns). Moreover, consuming other
meats actually gains you years. Thus, again, the evidence shows that
vegetarianism is not better for you by any significant measure made in this
study.

“
This is a prospective follow-up study of a cohort of about 1
million Seventh Day Adventists, about one-third of whom
are vegetarians.

Definitely report that here if you notice its publication. I’d appreciate it.

R E P LY

JT 5 12 • AP R IL 4, 201 2, 1 :1 8 P M

Regarding the Red Meat and Mortality study* by Pan et al, Richard Carrier wrote:

“
I wrote:

“ Using the appropriate values from the paper, the Bayes factor in
favor of the null hypothesis (that there is no association between the
 amount of unprocessed red meat consumed and total mortality) is
.025.

Please show me which values you are using to derive this result (with page
numbers, so I can check what you mean).

The figures I used to compute the Bayes factor come from Table 2 of the paper, which is on
page E4 of the online version, except for the number of deaths, which is on the previous
page.

You wrote:

“
I wrote:

“ I can provide details of my calculations of the Bayes factor

elsewhere, if you’re really interested.

I would be delighted. You can post a link here. I will find that very helpful.

Sorry it took me so long, but I have finally written up the methodology I used to calculate the
Bayes factor, and I have posted it here. The bulk of the write-up explains the statistical
rationale underlying the calculation. The specific calculation itself is at the end under the
heading “Example: Red Meat and Mortality.”

I want to address your other questions and the issues you raised, too, but, at least here’s the
Bayes factor stuff for a start.

Jay

*It appears that the paper is now behind a paywall, but you can download a pdf of the
original online version from here.

R E P LY
 RICH ARD CARRIER • APRIL 4, 2012, 4:34 PM

That was very helpful, thank you.

R E P LY

R • DECEMBER 12, 2011, 5:52 PM

Meh, I find Peter Singer more compelling: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHzwqf_JkrA

R E P LY

DA N IEL F A R MER • DECEMBER 12, 2011, 8:56 PM

Richard – there’s an unfortunate and unnecessary condescension in your otherwise interesting post.

As a scientifically minded vegan, I want to hone in on your rather cavalier treatment of animal subjectivity.
Reducing all empathy with non-human animals to anthropomorphism, as you seem to do, is a bit too quick.
Taking the fact of common descent seriously means taking seriously the rough similarities between human and
other mammal psychology. Pigs and cows aren’t human, of course, but neither are they machines. And so while
it may be possible to kill non-human animals painlessly, the question a thoughtful vegan asks is whether or not, in
an ideal world, empathetic individuals would want to invest in material and economic structures that necessarily
commodify sentient beings. The way I see it, if we want to build a society of decent, humane individuals, that will
be harder if the very means of our ongoing subsistence involve the intentional destruction of sentient beings.

Cows bellow for days when separated from their calves (and they have to be separated to get milk production
up). My father-in-law was a dairy farmer (on an organic farm) back in the day, and he tells me that was the
hardest part of his job. Why? Because he’s a decent human being.

So it seems to me a thoughtful, empirically grounded vegan might be justified in joining a growing movement to
put human treatment of non-human animals on the front burner of moral questioning, simply because it seems
possible to build an empathetic society that doesn’t not rely on the systematic ‘production’ and destruction of
living, breathing, feeling non-human animals.

At least, that’s how I see it.

Cheers.

R E P LY

C H A N C E • DECEMBER 12, 2011, 10:06 PM

Deag, what are you doing swearing so much? It’s pretty funny because it seems childish and out of place
especially in your lectures. I’m saying this as a 27 year old with no real quarrel with swearing in general. I just
want the broadest possible audience to be reached by the content of your arguments, and not get distracted by
goofy swear words =]

<3

R E P LY

R OLLI N I A DELI C I OSA • DEC EMBER 13, 2011, 3:17 AM

Is it not also irrational to assume some perfectly compassionate state of the livestock industry? Isn’t an
individual’s more moral choice the one in which they choose not to support/allow unnecessary suffering? You
said it well: “…our own overall life satisfaction depends on being compassionate, and compassion compels us
not to enjoy or want pointless torment to exist, no matter what or who is experiencing it.”

“(it’s just another kind of phobia based on false associations between animals and people)” You mean like the
strange association that people (humans) *are* animals, and that commonly farmed species are relatively closely
related mammals? Anthropomorphism need not take place. They are sentient, and have a capacity to experience
suffering. I noticed you exempt chimpanzees. Wouldn’t that be based on your false association? They’re just
animals, right? They won’t grow up to become humans…

“If pigs could expect to develop human-level consciousness, then eating them would be wrong.” Why? You
never get around to explaining it, but your whole argument hinges on humans being magically “special” because
of our specific, averaged cognitive abilities. At what IQ does this go into effect, and what does it have to do with
digestion? This is a non-sequitur, and thus illogical.

R E P LY

RICH ARD CARRIER • DECEMBER 13, 2011, 6 :15 PM

RolliniaDeliciosa: Is it not also irrational to assume some perfectly compassionate

state of the livestock industry?

I don’t assume, I check. What is irrational is assumingwithout checking. And I found that it
tends to be vegetarians who are doing the latter, rather a lot.

Isn’t an individual’s more moral choice the one in which they choose not to
support/allow unnecessary suffering?

There is no more unnecessary animal suffering under first world husbandry than there is
unnecessary human suffering. In fact, a great deal less. Yet we do our best to police both.
But not all suffering can be avoided, nor need it be. Just compare the suffering of people who
pick the fruits and vegetables you eat, with the suffering of first world livestock, and you’ll
find the animals generally better off. And yet unlike the animals, the humans can understand
and appreciate what they are going through. Which makes it more of a moral concern to
improve their lives than that of livestock. Yet we also have valid concern to do the latter–as I
explained in my original blog entry: California husbandry law should become normative, and it
 is morally appropriate to advocate for that. But just because conditions can be improved
does not mean we should boycott the food the current conditions produce, any more in the
case of the fruit and vegetables humans labor to bring us than the meat and other products
animals labor to bring us (and in relative terms they do not do much laboring at that).
Rationality also requires realistic goals. Improving the status quo is a realistic goal. Ending it is
not. And refraining from eating meat accomplishes neither.

I noticed you exempt chimpanzees. Wouldn’t that be based on your false association?
They’re just animals, right? They won’t grow up to become humans…

They grow up to be self-aware and possess conceptual knowledge of their circumstances

and of life and death. This is not a false association. It’s an objective, physical fact about
chimpanzees that is not true of livestock. Hence it’s not about what species you are. It’s
about what you can cognitively aspire to: the existence of self-awareness and conceptual
knowledge of your plight, or not. (Elephants and dolphins and other apes also exhibit
evidence of similar cognitive ability, in both brain anatomy and behavior.)

At what IQ does this go into effect, and what does it have to do with digestion? This is
a non-sequitur, and thus illogical.

No, it’s fundamental. Unless your morality is wholly arbitrary, it must build on objective facts
of the world. And I am talking about objective facts of the world. That is not only logical, it’s
the only logical way to ascertain moral truth at all.

First, it’s not about IQ. Desktop computers can be programmed to have higher IQs than
humans, yet lack self-awareness and conceptual consciousness (though eventually that will
change). Thus it’s about self-awareness and conceptual consciousness: an entity that is self-
aware has personal properties (they think of themselves and others and understand the nature
of their circumstances) and thus is a valuing agent and therefore valuable: it loses something
valuable when it dies, something it understands as valuable. An entity that lacks self-
awareness does not appreciate or understand its existence at all. Thus it does not lose
anything by losing its existence. All you do by killing it is end a pain-pleasure software routine
that’s running for no one’s appreciation or understanding. There is no “person” from whom
you are taking life away. Though there is real pain and pleasure being experienced (which is
thus a proper object of our concern). It’s just not being experienced by a person. See my
earlier remarks.

R E P LY

U N BOU N D • DECEMBER 13, 2011, 4:44 AM

I did get a chuckle when reading a book (actually written by a scientist, not a dietitian) that strongly
recommended a mostly vegetarian diet (mostly advocated in the book for benefits of getting more micro-
nutrients (mostly potassium which is statistically correlated to increased hypertension if you get too little).
Interestingly enough, there was a table near the end of the book which showed what the actual effect of various
personal habits would be on your life expectancy.

Since I don’t drink (just can’t stand the taste) and don’t smoke (allergies are bad enough already), my increased
life expectancy from switching from my supposedly poor diet to the “superior” diet is all of…(wait for it)…3 to 6
months. Yes, I would increase my life expectancy a few months by eating the supposedly “superior” diet.

In other words, what you are eating (as long as it isn’t drastic like eating only candy) is just fine for you.

R E P LY

DAVED • DECEMBER 13, 2011, 6 :21 AM

Richard,

Could you please explain your position on humans animals vs other animals? What is different about humans that
grants us the right to take other animals’ lives gratuitously? Is this it?

“must recognize such facts as that animals aren’t aware of most things, and don’t aspire to be or do anything,
and have no prospect of becoming anything, and thus should not be hastily anthropomorphized in these ways.”

thanks,
-dave

R E P LY

RICH ARD CARRIER • DECEMBER 13, 2011, 5:32 PM

DaveD: the short answer to your question is “yes.” The long answer is in my previous
comment on the same subject (and to a lesser extent the one after that).

R E P LY

JEF F • DECEMBER 13, 2011, 8:37 AM

The balances you list for food production (food in for food produced) need to be looked at in terms of protein
or nitrogen balance. Phosphorus balance would be useful to look at too. Carbon (what makes up most of the
weight of any crop) is cheap. Nitrogen is not. While I agree with many of the points in this article, and believe
that meat is an important part of our diets, I have had the opportunity to work with crops and, to a lesser extent,
livestock. It takes a lot of nitrogen to grow a crop, much of which is lost soon after it is applied. Much more is
lost when the crop is delivered to the animal. With today’s animal production methodology much animal waste is
lost — even when it is applied as fertilizer it is subject to runoff and leaching. Nitrogen efficiency is simply better
(by various factors — I’ve seen as high as 12 — but I wouldn’t argue with something a bit lower since I’m sure
that was from a slanted article) with a vegetarian diet. To me that is the most important reason to be a
vegetarian….though I’m not one.

Also, the argument about local food being more energy intensive is highly dependent upon the type of production
being done. As an extreme example, sweet corn grown in your backyard is highly efficient, but sweet corn
grown on two acres at a farm down the street isn’t efficient at all for the reasons you mention.
R E P LY

RICH ARD CARRIER • DECEMBER 13, 2011, 5:30 PM

Jeff: the balances you list for food production (food in for food produced) need to be
looked at in terms of protein or nitrogen balance

Except it’s not just food being output. It’s hundreds of other products besides. Don’t lose
sight of that.

Protein balance is achieved at the level of diet. So: advocate for a healthy diet, and demand
will create equilibrium in the production of protein sources. That’s the most you could hope
for whether anyone eats animals or not.

The main problem with nitrogen is with human-consumed crops, in the form of fertilizer
runoff. That would not change if we stopped eating animals, since then we’d just manufacture
and deploy synthetic nitrate fertilizers in the same or similar quantities. Plus we’d have vast
amounts of agricultural waste we’d have to figure out what to do with (once we aren’t
feeding it to animals). But as to runoff, that’s a problem that won’t be affected by whether we
eat animals or not, because we will always be fertilizing vast quantities of irrigated land. Thus
it’s a problem we just need to solve.

Phosphorus balance would be useful to look at too.

One of the leading methods by which we return phosphorous to soils for growing human-
consumed crops is animal bone meal fertilizer.

R E P LY

P ETE M. • DECEMBER 13, 2011, 8:53 AM

Wow. I find the section at the beginning about the various irrationalities of vegetarians (like me) to be remarkably
silly. I should explain, since that’s a pretty caustic remark. First, let me say that I think you are wrong about the
methods of factory farming and their impact on animal welfare. But, I want to set that aside, and concentrate on
the idea of rationality.

Different people are vegetarians for different reasons, some of which I agree with and some of which I don’t.
Some hold that animals are of more or less equal moral status as human beings, and that killing an animal for
food violates that animal’s right to life. I don’t agree with this kind of line, but it is this view that would lead to
intolerance of those who eat meat. And, at least in my experience, it does lead to intolerance of non-vegetarians;
or, more likely, of non-vegans.

On the other hand, there are those, like me, who think that while non-human animals do not have the same moral
status that human beings do, still their ability to experience, to feel pain, pleasure, and more complex things like
affection, fear, and so on, depending on the animal, must be taken into account. Their pain matters. So, the
reason that I am a vegetarian is because I believe that the way most animals are raised causes them suffering,
and I do not want to contribute to a system that has this effect.
There’s really no argument that our farming practices cause suffering. We can argue about how much, and you
seem to want to compare the suffering an equivalent animal would experience under factory farming conditions
with the suffering it would experience in the wild. Note that for most farm animals, this comparison doesn’t make
sense, because these animals have been bred to be food animals and there is no wild equivalent. But moreover,
this comparison is silly, because regardless of what the animal would suffer in the wild, it is suffering something
now at the hands of human beings, who are capable of the moral evaluation of their actions. Just because
somebody else would hit a dog if I don’t doesn’t make it ok for me to hit the dog. I choose not to contribute,
because of the value that I assign to the pain and pleasure o animals.

As far as “tolerating” non-vegetarians, this is a non-issue for vegetarians like me. I think that this is a difficult
issue, and that it isn’t entirely clear what moral weight to give to the experiences of non-persons. I recognize that
people can reasonably disagree. Some people have unreasonable views, and, for instance, think that it would be
ok to cause to any amount of pain and suffering to a non-human animal. I think this is obviously wrong. But
there’s a lot of middle ground between that person and me, and one can occupy a reasonable position without
agreeing with me. This is not uncommon with complex moral issues.

Last comment, and sorry for the ultra-long post: what strikes me as really silly is to call someone like me
irrational. My preference is to avoid as much as possible contributing to the suffering of animals and one way to
do that is by avoiding consumption of meat. Given that this is my preference, it is of course rational for me to be
a vegetarian. Now, I must balance the weight of that preference against others, and if I were starving I would eat
meat. For someone with different preferences, it would be rational to be a vegan, or to eat meat, or whatever.
But, irrational? Come on, that’s just silly.

R E P LY

RICH ARD CARRIER • DECEMBER 13, 2011, 5:17 PM

Pete M.: There are those, like me, who think that while non-human animals do not
have the same moral status that human beings do, still their ability to experience, to
feel pain, pleasure, and more complex things like affection, fear, and so on, depending
on the animal, must be taken into account. Their pain matters. So, the reason that I am
a vegetarian is because I believe that the way most animals are raised causes them
suffering, and I do not want to contribute to a system that has this effect.

The reason this is irrational is that the underlying belief is false, and it would easily be known
to be false if you cared to investigate the true facts of the matter. Farmed animals do not
experience any more suffering than they would experience in the wild.

Otherwise I agree with the corollary premise that their pain matters. But death ends all pain
and thus is unaffected by that standard of care. You cannot argue death is bad based on an
opposition to pain. Death can only be bad for some other reason. That reason happens to be
what is lost. But animals don’t lose anything. Because they never have a concept of life or of
self to lose. This is precisely the issue: to anthropomorphize them just because they have
emotions and make decisions and look like little people is not logically correct, because it is
to attribute to them the same knowledge and reasons for having those emotions and making
those decisions that we do. But they don’t. They have no cognitive awareness of such things.
They have drives to avoid pain and fright, but they don’t “value life.” They have no concept
of value or of life or what it means to be alive. Nor will they ever. Killing them thus does not
 subtract anything from the universe that would ever have been appreciated (except by us,
hence it is not irrational to assign value to an animal and then refrain from killing it, hence there
is nothing illogical about pets). It’s not like Being John Malkovich and there’s this little man
stuck inside an animal’s mind who understands everything that’s going on but can’t
communicate with us. There is no little man. There is no cognition of itself or its existence.
Thus its death does not destroy anything of value, any more than the death of a plant does. In
fact death ends pain in an animal and thus should be a net good to you: you should want
animals to be eaten as quickly as possible, if really all you care about is pain.

Your equation of animals in the wild with “hitting a dog” is inapt. It is not legal to beat
livestock (beyond the limited discipline one might apply even to a dog, e.g. to train it or stop
it hurting someone). Nor do you grasp the relevance of the equation of livestock to wildlife: if
it is okay for wildlife to be killed and eaten (as it routinely is), it is okay for them to be killed
and eaten by us. Otherwise you would have to believe that we ought to intervene in nature
and prevent all animal predation because we are morally obligated to care about its hapless
victims. If we are instead allowed to be indifferent to those victims, there is no logical
argument that we should be any less indifferent to animals ourselves. Likewise for any
argument about the pain wildlife suffer.

Notably we do intervene to prevent egregious wildlife pain (e.g. we will give vet care to a
wounded deer and re-release it, clean the oil off a bird, etc., indifferent to whether they are
eaten or die from injury in the wild thereafter), but we do exactly the same for livestock. Thus
that behavior is consistent. By contrast, it is unreasonable to believe we should pamper all
animals as if they deserved to be free of all pain. That would entail bizarre interventionist
behavior in the wild. But it also has no logical basis. For what reason should we regard
animals as deserving to be free of all pain whatever? And if some is okay, how much? Now
we’re just quibbling over what conditions we should keep them in. We still have no argument
against eating them, not least because you can procure meat from any reasonable conditions
you please: most U.S. cities provide access to free range meat, and by responsible hunting
you could even cull the most free range animals of all: actual wild animals.

Thus it seems to me vegetarians don’t really believe the things you are saying, because I
doubt you’d eat hunted meat or free range meat either (I don’t know where you are on fish).
So I suspect that what you are saying now are just rationalizations for your phobia, in
response to my arguments and evidence. The same thing all phobics do when challenged. But
your rationalizations ultimately don’t make sense. Or else require doubling down on your
commitment to false beliefs.

[But no need to apologize for your long post. I found your post very efficient in
communicating a targeted series of well articulated thoughts. That’s exactly the sort of
comment I appreciate the most. Even when I completely disagree with it.:-)]

R E P LY

JT5 12 • D EC EMBER 1 3, 201 1 , 9 :02 AM

Gilgamesh:

“
 “
I agree that an ecological study is not sufficient to prove causation. It can strongly show
correlations, however. . . . and Since there is a mechanism and there are the correlations from
the China Study, then it does not commit the ecological fallacy.

It would be more accurate to say that an ecologic study can show strong correlations. However, those
correlations are between population-level averages. To infer that they apply at the level of the individual is to
commit the ecologic fallacy.

Furthermore, the rodent experiments you mention do not imply that milk intake in humans causes cancer, and do
not validate the ecologic-level results. Nothing can validate the ecologic-level results except for a study at the
individual level in the same study population. Considered together, the China Study and the rodent experiments
do not imply a relation between milk intake and cancer in humans; all they do is start a stupid internet rumor.

“
Also, the study you cite about differences in types of meat consumption, there is the issue that
high meat protein diets can also increase disease risks, so switching from higher fat to higher
protein meat diets could cause a net wash, and the rather modest differences in the mortality
rates of these diets would seem to suggest that that is the case.

The men and women in that study did have higher risk of death from all causes combined for red and processed
meat intake, on the order of 33% higher for high vs low red meat intake. That’s not what I would call a “rather
modest difference.”

R E P LY

GILGAMES H • DECEMBER 13, 2011, 9 :45 AM

@jt512
Tests on mice and rats are rather common in medical practice, and in may cases they are a good proxy for
effects on humans. There are exceptions, and sometimes this has led agencies to issue warning labels on
products that are later shown to be relatively safe. However, the mechanism found in the rat and mouse studies
are not specific to these animals; the problem was a byproduct of digestion of casein that affected DNA. It’s
more than an internet rumor, I would say. Now, obviously mice are not as good a proxy for humans as, well,
humans, but if we go as strict as you seem to suggest we would loose the pharmaceutical industry.

Again on the ecological fallacy: the fallacy is committed only if no mechanism is identified to show why the effect
is seen. You seem to be taking a stance to strict that anything short of 10,000 case studies does not count as
evidence. If we were to be so strict, again large-scale studies of any sort would be useless. But, if large-scale
studies are combined with case studies and tests of mechanisms, then we are doing good science.
On the meat study, I think you misread me. The differences between low and high consumption are significant;
what I was noting was that different meats being consumed have much more modest effects. So, red vs. white
meat has a small affect, and portion makes a much greater difference.

R E P LY

JT5 12 • D EC EMBER 1 3, 201 1 , 1 0:32 AM

@#10 Richard Carrier wrote:

“
The problem with all these kinds of arguments is that there are disease and cancer risks
associated with nearly every food. Thus shifting diet around often has no net effect, which is my
point. Hence this is exactly the result we find when we look at lifetime diet effects on mortality:
most studies show no effect at all, and even the most promising show only a negligible effect.
Obsessing over single variables like “milk” is therefore a waste of time. Or “red meat” even.

If you’re referring to the Singha study, you’re misinterpreting the results. The reported hazard ratios are adjusted
for numerous dietary variables (as well as lifestyle variables) that could confound the results. For instance, the
model for red meat included covariates for white meat, fruit, vegetables, and total energy. So a hazard ratio of
1.36, say, for the 5th vs the 1st quintile of red meat intake, means that reduction of red meat intake from the
level of consumption of the 5th quintile to that of the 1st quintile, accompanied by equicaloric substitution of
whatever foods aren’t in the model (eg, fish, carbohydrates) is associated with a 36% reduction in risk of death
from any cause. In other words “shifting diet around” in this specific manner is associated with a lower risk of
death (per unit time).

“
When compared to real disease factors, like smoking, it just looks ridiculous.

That’s a blatant fallacy of irrelevance. The existence of a more dangerous behavior, like smoking, does not
diminish the importance of less dangerous dietary behaviors.

“
That’s why looking at a 33% increased risk of a disease is to obsess too much.
I disagree. I am more than willing to make lifestyle changes that would decrease my risk of death by 36% per
year. You’re what, in your 30s? It may not make much difference to you now, since your risk of death per year
is low. What will you think when you’re in, say, your 60s?

“
But 33% washes out in the sea of random variables affecting mortality.

Only in badly designed studies.

@11:

“
The Sinha study only got those results for “high intake” of red meat (and processed meat, e.g.
hot dogs), not moderate (normal) consumption. The latter had no appreciable effect on
mortality.

Again, you are misinterpreting the results. What the study found was a highly statistically significant, nearly linear
relationship between quintile of meat intake and risk of all-cause mortality: the more red meat that was
consumed, the greater the risk of death.

“
Better controlled studies don’t find such sweeping effects on disease rates.

I’m curious what studies of red meat intake you think are higher quality than this one. There are, to my
knowledge, no large controlled trials of red meat intake. All the evidence is from observational studies. As such
studies go, Sinha et al is pretty strong. It is prospective, has a huge cohort, and a lengthy follow-up period.
Although diet was assessed by food frequency questionnaire, the questionnaire has been validated; that is,
shown to adequately reflect actual dietary intake. The analysis employed a rigorous adjustment for dietary and
lifestyle variables, comparable in quality to the highest quality studies in nutritional epidemiology. Just saying it did
not employ adequate controls doesn’t make it so. What studies of the effect of meat intake on risk of cause-
specific or all-cause mortality do you think are better controlled than this one?

Jay

R E P LY
 RICH ARD CARRIER • DECEMBER 13, 2011, 12:37 PM

Jay, if you think any study is telling you that vegetarianism “would decrease my risk of death
by 36% per year” then you are the one who is not reading it correctly. If you knew any math
at all you’d realize that statement is wildly absurd.

I’ll also remind you that we’re talking about moderate meat eating, not “top quintile”
meat consumption. Stop conflating the two.

When we look at moderate meat consumption the Sinha study does not get results much
different from the Key study which combines five different prospective studies.

And as for the China Study I’ve alreadylinked to critics taking that apart. I consider that
moot.

R E P LY

OLDEBA BE • DECEMBER 13, 2011, 10:59 AM

Well, it’s an interesting read, and in the face of all the above statistics, rationale, references, arguments, etc.,
maybe it isn’t much, and admittedly, it is only anecdotal, but here goes:
I eat meat, chicken, and fish, starches, vegetables, fruit, drink milk and wine among others, whenever and how
much I please, have never been on a diet, have no disease, and I have a puff or two 3-4 times a day… I am 81
years old.

So, it seems that when quoting statistics, one has to understand that they may (or may not) apply to some
statistical average, but not necessarily to all individuals.

R E P LY

RICH ARD CARRIER • DECEMBER 13, 2011, 4:51 PM

Oldebabe: Well, true, but the danger of such reasoning is that you cannot recommend
behavior based on your own luck. If the odds are better than 90% that you will live 14 more
years by not ever smoking, it is foolish to bet on being in the other 10%. To end up in that
lucky tenth and say “see, it’s perfectly fine!” is to give very bad advice. That’s why we need
to look at broad averages and overall risks. Otherwise we’re acting like someone who drives
drunk and recommends driving drunk because “they” have never happened to crash or hit
anyone.

R E P LY

JWLOF TU S • DECEMBER 13, 2011, 11:12 AM

Emotional? Me? What the hell are you talking about?

Point taken.

R E P LY

P EP • DECEMBER 13, 2011, 11:33 AM

Again, an animal’s life is indifferent to when it dies, because it does not become anything and has no
awareness of being something.

I don’t, for the time being, accept the assertion that an animal’s life is indifferent to when it dies. Are you sure
about this?

Animal quality of life has to be measured in terms of what is comfortable for that animal, and must
recognize such facts as that animals aren’t aware of most things, and don’t aspire to be or do anything,
and have no prospect of becoming anything, and thus should not be hastily anthropomorphized in these
ways.

Hypothetically speaking, if there were a species whose comprehension and understanding were far superior to
ours would that permit them, morally, to kill us? I don’t mean this question to be a troll. And perhaps
philosophically speaking it could be articulated better.

R E P LY

RICH ARD CARRIER • DECEMBER 13, 2011, 4:43 PM

Pep: I don’t, for the time being, accept the assertion that an animal’s life is indifferent
to when it dies. Are you sure about this?

Yes. As long as we’re talking about livestock. Because being aware of the concepts of death
and a future and having plans for one’s life and valuing time to live one’s life in and even
having a concept of a self that would be lost by dying all requires cognitive machinery that
livestock animals don’t physically posses. That some animals, which we don’t eat, might, I
recognize and discuss in Sense and Goodness without God V.2.2.2-4, pp. 328-31. But
the present blog only concerns livestock animals.

Hypothetically speaking, if there were a species whose comprehension and

understanding were far superior to ours would that permit them, morally, to kill us? I
don’t mean this question to be a troll. And perhaps philosophically speaking it could be
articulated better.

It’s a question raised by Sam Harris in his book The Moral Landscape. So it’s not out of
left field. The answer is no (unless they are psychopathic monsters: see my discussion of this
in The End of Christianity, pp. 354-56 and Sense and Goodness without God V.2.3.2,
pp. 342-45).

Because moral value is not about superior cognitive ability, but only the baseline ability to
know of oneself and of others as selves and to understand the concepts of living and dying
and of experience, knowledge, and the consequences of one’s actions (or the state of
cognitively developing into such a thing). Once you reach a certain level of cognition, you
have personal knowledge and thus exist as a person. Moral recognition of that fact then
follows. For every entity capable of such knowledge, no matter how intelligent.

There is a state of being in between (i.e. between that and being a mindless body in a state of
assembly), when you are a cognating animal who is mentally becoming an animal capable of
moral cognition, and in that state it is their future that they are building into that we recognize
as of value. Thus we refrain from killing infants because of what they will become, not what
they are–apart from the fact that someone already values them even as they are and thus they
have assigned value as well (the same way our pets do, or an antique car or other unique
object we assign value)–but in terms of value an entity possesses universally, it is an infant’s
future that gives its present existence universal value. In other words an infant combines two
properties: cognition (thus, like animals, they are not to be needlessly tormented) and a future
of moral significance (thus, unlike animals, they are not to be needlessly killed).

Landon Hedrick asked a different but related question in another thread: I wonder
whether it would be acceptable, on your view, to cage, kill, and eat a human being who
is severely mentally handicapped (to such a degree that they have the cognitive
capacities of, say, an adult pig).

The question is misconceived because even an infant has more cognitive ability than a pig.
Thus you are asking how we should treat someone who had less cognitive ability than even a
newborn baby, and (by your own stipulation) would never develop any further. For example,
infants have an innate theory of mind (a physical system present in a brain already by its third
trimester of intrauterine development) and with it can infer another’s intentions from their
actions. Pigs don’t have that. Infants also have an innate brain center devoted to learning to
identify tools and assigning names and functions to them. Pigs don’t have that either. In short
order infants learn and recognize their own names (without having to be trained). It requires
considerable effort to teach a pig to respond to a name. As soon as an infant’s brain has
access to data (i.e. birth at the latest), they begin learning conceptual knowledge (and
probably already had been before birth, which is why I oppose elective third trimester
abortion). Pigs don’t do that. Infants have the brain instrumentation to accumulate
conclusions from data that no pig ever could. As a result they become self-aware before
reaching their first birthday. Something pigs definitely never do.

So let’s play the game and assume a human is born whose brain is so physically emaciated
and damaged that it never even acquires the cognitive abilities of a newborn infant and we
can somehow verify it never will (those are some bizarre stipulations, so you should expect
the consequences of them to be equally bizarre: one of the first rules to learn about crafting
ridiculous moral thought experiments). To begin with, I believe such a baby should be
euthanized. Aborted before the third trimester even, if its fate is predictable. But if for some
reason its condition could only be confirmed after birth, humanely killing it would be a mercy.
Otherwise all you will have is a pet, not a person. Indeed less than a pet, since they won’t
even be able to take care of themselves. Ever. Nor will they ever have knowledge of being a
person, or of life or death, or any of the things that give human cognition moral value. Could
we cage them? We already do that even to fully developed infants (we call them cribs).
Could we kill them? If they have no prospects of ever becoming more than a mental sub-
infant, we not only could, we probably should. Could we eat them? It would not be immoral
(any more than eating a fetus: and if you believe abortion at any stage is moral, then you must
 believe it is moral to eat what gets aborted), but it would be very unhealthy (human flesh is
poisonous), and even apart from that I would question why anyone would want to.
Someone keen to eat a baby (or a fetus for that matter) would have to be so positively
ghoulish that they might not stop at sub-infants with no cognitive future. Nevertheless, humans
have eaten each other in extreme survival conditions, and if a baby expired naturally and it
was all you had to eat to survive, I doubt you would feel it right for us to condemn you for it.
And no one should.

But none of this has anything to do with actual human infants, for whom none of your
stipulations hold.

R E P LY

JEF F • DECEMBER 13, 2011, 11:41 AM

Hmmmm — animals produce fertilizer for human foods? Sure, that’s true, but that fertilizer begins its life with the
Haber Bosch reaction — the synthetic process which takes nitrogen from the air, and mixes it with hydrogen
(usually from natural gas) under high temperatures and pressures to make ammonium. The nitrogen used for
animal feed (which is mostly corn) comes, for the most part, from nitrogen fixed using the Haber Bosch reaction,
and nitrogen placed back into fields via manure (which you are overestimating) still began with the Haber Bosch
Reaction. You should look up the book Enriching the Earth by Smil. Agriculture loses nitrogen, and agriculture
which has, as its end product, meat loses more nitrogen. Because of this it takes fewer acres of land to feed
someone with a vegetarian diet than someone who eats meat.

R E P LY

RICH ARD CARRIER • DECEMBER 13, 2011, 12:56 PM

Jeff: You should look up the book Enriching the Earth by Smil.

I just skimmed that and it didn’t make your point any clearer. I just don’t see its relevance.
Obviously more land is used to maintain a crop-and-animal system than is used to maintain a
crop-only system. I even said so in my blog. The only issue of importance is greenhouse gas
emissions (land isn’t our problem), and fertilizer processes are already accounted for in the
numbers I used. Likewise what happens to agrowaste when animals aren’t eating it must be
accounted for, and what industry we ramp up to replace the hundreds of other products we
get out of animals if we weren’t getting them out of animals must also be accounted for. In the
end, I see no significant gain to be likely. But feel free to show me some math on that if you
have it.

R E P LY

RICH ARD CARRIER • DECEMBER 13, 2011, 12:03 PM

Note: I have changed the order in which the comments display. See here for why and how to
compensate.

R E P LY

JEF F • DECEMBER 13, 2011, 1:31 PM

All I was trying to say was that meat production costs more land and more nitrogen. I recommended the Smil
book because it describes how nitrogen is obtained and used — you’re right, it doesn’t have much to do with
meat production as such — sorry.

The additional nitrogen is a problem because of sustainability issues (nitrogen is produced using natural gas).
Additionally, the extra nitrogen is a pollutant — it usually finds its way to the Gulf of Mexico or other locale
where it creates a dead zone — or into the atmosphere as a greenhouse gas
http://www.epa.gov/nitrousoxide/sources.html. On average only about 33% of applied nitrogen worldwide
ever makes it to a crop — the rest is waste.

R E P LY

GROGN OR • DECEMBER 13, 2011, 2:41 PM

>I also find vegetarians irrational in their acceptance of non-vegetarians.

This tangent is a bit troubling. I am going to give a patently ridiculous surface analogy now, so I hope nobody
thinks I am presenting a straw-man of non-vegetarianism.

Ahem. Imagine you live on a planet of mostly cannibals. Aside from this one difference, it is identical to our
planet. Almost everyone is a cannibal, and you’ve been raised to think cannibalism is okay, but now you’re
having second thoughts. “Maybe killing people to eat their flesh isn’t okay,” you think. You join the minority of
people who don’t cannibalize, ever unnerved ever so slightly by this practice.

Eventually, you come to the conclusion that cannibalism is barbaric and horrible, and that everybody should
definitely stop doing it RIGHT NOW. What do you do? Do you form a bizarre fringe movement, telling people
they’re monsters for being cannibals as they were taught? Maybe you do that, but then they will eat you. Far
more effective, and far less damaging to yourself, would be to lightly criticize the practice of cannibalism just
enough that you don’t get eaten and can maybe change the society from within. You also have to live on the
planet, so you have to at least pretend accept the cannibalism for the time being, so you don’t get eaten, and so
you can actually be effective.

Morals of the fable:

* Convincing people of your Noble Cause is much easier if you do not portray the people you want to convince
as monsters. They will simply ostracize you. Look at PETA’s reputation! They’d surely get eaten. So for
consequentialist reasons, it’s better to not go out shaming everyone whom you think is doing wrong; this is only
provocative.

* It is psychologically damaging to realize that the whole world is continually committing an atrocity (in the one’s
opinion), so it’s easier to form some cognitive dissonance to “kind of” justify the behavior of others.
* One does have to live in the society at large, regardless of whether one approves of it. That is why vegetarians
will come to laugh at dinner parties, have sex with meat-eaters, and help them move.

R E P LY

JT5 12 • D EC EMBER 1 3, 201 1 , 2:47 P M

@21 Richard wrote,

“
[i]f you think any study is telling you that vegetarianism “would decrease my risk of death by
36% per year” then you are the one who is not reading it correctly.

That, in fact, is not what I said. What I said was:

“
[A] hazard ratio of 1.36, say, for the 5th vs the 1st quintile of red meat intake, means that
reduction of red meat intake from the level of consumption of the 5th quintile to that of the 1st
quintile, accompanied by equicaloric substitution of whatever foods aren’t in the model (eg,
fish, carbohydrates) is associated with a 36% reduction in risk of death from any cause.

Which doesn’t bear much resemblance to those words you put in my mouth, does it.

You wrote:

“
If you knew any math at all you’d realize that statement is wildly absurd.

Well, I have degrees in both nutritional epidemiology and biostatistics, so I think I actually do no a little about
math, and, actually, a lot about the type of math that is being done in that analysis. Aside from the fact that
I wrote “36% reduction” when in fact I should have written “26% reduction” (1–1/1.36), perhaps you could
explain the error in my math, or alternatively, just admit that you were attacking a straw man.

“
 “
I’ll also remind you that we’re talking about moderate meat eating, not “top quintile” meat
consumption. Stop conflating the two.

I’m not conflating anything, and I’m not making any direct statements about vegetarianism per se. High-quality
studies with good statistical power that directly compare vegetarians and non-vegetarians are scarce to non-
existent. I’m also not sure how useful they would be since those diet styles are heterogeneous. Therefore, I’m
discussing the results of a study on meat consumption as a surrogate (and arguably better) dietary factor that
showed red meat consumption to be associated with higher risk of mortality on a dose-response basis (after
control for numerous potentially confounding variables).

Furthermore, I’m not just talking about 5th quintile. I was just trying to minimize the number of statistics in the
post. I would have thought that “5th vs 1st quintile” plus “highly significant linear trend across quintiles” would
have adequately communicated the point. I guess not. What the study suggests is the less red meat you eat—at
least down to the first quintile—the better off you are. I don’t know what you mean by “moderate” meat
consumption. Third quintile red meat consumption is better than fifth quintile, but first quintile is better than third.
Is there any further benefit to reducing red meat consumption to zero, or eliminating meat consumption entirely?
We can’t say, at least not from this study.

“
When we look at moderate meat consumption the Sinha study does not get results much
different from the Key study which combines five different prospective studies.

Moderate meat consumption compared with what? In Sinha, 3rd vs 5th quintile red meat consumption was
associated with an 11% and a 14% reduction in risk of death for males and females, respectively. 1st vs 3rd
quintiles was associated with an additional 15% reduction in of risk of death in both males and females. In
contrast, Key et al compared vegetarians and non-vegetarians and found no significant difference in total
mortality.

However, as I previously said, the validity of Key et al is in question because it included the Health Food
Shoppers Study, whose validity is not in question—it was an extremely poor study. Furthermore Key et al,
despite being a pooled analysis, was a much smaller, less-powerful study than Sinha. Key included 76,000
subjects and 800,000 person-years of follow-up. Sinha included 546,000 subjects for 5.5 million person-years
of follow-up. By either measure, Sinha et al was approximately 7 times larger than the Key study, and it wasn’t
contaminated by data from junk studies.

“
And as for the China Study I’ve already linked to critics taking that apart. I consider that moot.
Yeah, I wasn’t planning to respond further to gilgamesh about that either.

Jay

R E P LY

JT5 12 • D EC EMBER 1 3, 201 1 , 4:51 P M

I wrote:

“
I actually do no a little bit about math.

But grammar, not so much.

R E P LY

JER EMIA H • DECEMBER 13, 2011, 4:53 PM

Richard,

I don’t think I am sold on the ethics part. I would agree that a lot of the stuff about the horrors of factory farming
are probably isolated incidents and dealt with accordingly but…

“
” animal rights advocates often misconstrue what is “bad” for an animal, thinking animals are
just like people and thus whatever we wouldn’t like they wouldn’t like, which is silly.”

This is true to a degree but there are instances in which I don’t think it is silly. Animals can quite obviously feel
pain, I think you would concede that yourself given your comment that killing animals is okay as long as they are
not tortured. If pain and suffering did not enter the equation then torture should be permissible as well. (in theory)
Humane killing doesn’t really seem relevant here as we wouldn’t be too sympathetic to a murderer who
happened to kill his victims in a humane way. The crucial point isn’t how humane the killing was but that he was
taking the life of someone against their will which leads us into this statement:

“
 “
“It would cause you pain, and thus diminish your life satisfaction, to be a cruel or wholly
indifferent person. But destroying an animal humanely is not cruel. And it is not destroying a
person. Again, an animal’s life is indifferent to when it dies, because it does not become
anything and has no awareness of being something.”

For starters, I don’t know what you mean by it “does not become anything”. Animals like ourselves break down
into our contingent elements upon death so neither ‘become’ anything, or everything depending on how you want
to view things. I think it is also questionable to claim that animals are indifferent to when they die. Animals have
survival instincts. They avoid situations that cause pain or threaten death. This does not seem like indifference to
me. You could claim that it is merely instinct and not some sort of higher cognitive awareness of wanting to avoid
death but not knowing the inner mental life of cats (or whatever) this can’t be much more than speculation.
Secondly would that even be relevant? Surely we would not condone the humane killing of a mentally disabled
person purely on the criteria that they are unable to articulate their desire to live? The crucial criteria here seems
to be a desire to live, not an ability to articulate it, which animals by all appearances possess.

Also given your position as a naturalistic materialist I would think that you would concede that our own interest
in avoiding death is simply biological adaptations no different than that of other animals. Also I think it is fair to
say that death would diminish an animal’s life satisfaction. My logical reason for not wanting to die (other than
purely instinctual) is that it would do exactly this, that I would no longer be able to enjoy things that give me
pleasure. An animal may not be able to communicate this feeling the way we can but I think it is mistaken to say
that is not their desire. Just via observation I can see that my cat seeks out pleasure, it does things that it thinks
will lead to it getting a treat or a rub behind the ears. It obviously is displaying the same attempts at self-
satisfaction that people engage in and to deny it of that opportunity would seem wrong in the same way that
killing is deemed immoral because it thwarts the desires of a living person.

I had some more, but I’ll just leave it at that for now, since the comment is getting kind of long.

R E P LY

JEF F • DECEMBER 13, 2011, 6 :18 PM

Just a few problems with your answer.

Synthetic nitrate fertilizers — producers tend to use urea and ammonium as much as or more than they use
nitrate.

Figuring out what to do with agricultural waste isn’t nearly as much of a problem as you make it appear. In fact it
isn’t a problem at all. This waste is full of organic material which can be used for a wide variety of things, not the
least of which is to place it back into a field to enrich the soil. This is quite common and in some regions a
preferred practice.

Most of the corn crop in the US is used to feed animals — well over 50 percent. The bulk of the feed given to
animals is corn – not agricultural waste (which you didn’t say explicitly, but seem to be implying).

If we ate fewer animals there would be less demand for the type of corn that is currently grown — so we would
expect it to be produced less on less land with less fertilizer which would be be good. Of course some
government subsidies would need to go away, but that’s a different story — and is entirely possible with a
sustained reduction in demand. The idea that a reduction in the use of animals for meat wouldn’t eventually cause
a reduction in the use of feed corn makes no sense.

You keep talking about other products from animals, and I understand that, but once you get past fertilizer
products like poop, bone meal and blood meal you’re not left with much — and I would contend that we could
get what we needed for these other things while killing a much smaller number of animals.

To take it a step further, the nutrition in most of the fertilizer products, like the phosphorus in bone meal, comes
from phosphorus mines in Florida originally — bone meal is just an inefficient way of repackaging it. We will
deplete our phosphorus mines within the next 100 years if we don’t slow down.

Extra nutrition is not just run-off, it’s also N2O which can have global warming effects similar to or worse than
methane depending on how you measure effects (it lasts longer).

In short — less animals for meat, less fertilizer used, less land used, less environmental problems. Period

R E P LY

R OLLI N I A DELI C I OSA • DEC EMBER 13, 2011, 10:16 P M

“…refraining from eating meat accomplishes neither.”

Except that it does. Millions of vegetarians (in the US alone) equals less suffering than zero vegetarians. That is
an improved status quo. You might just find a vegetarian or two among husbandry legislation advocates as well.
A perfect industry (which would aspire to resemble no industry at all, with regard to suffering) is also an
unrealistic goal. But you seem to think it’s worth working towards. Kind of like a perfectly secular society, free
of theocratic threat.

R E P LY

P ETER H UR F OR D • D EC EMBER 1 3, 201 1 , 1 0:28 P M

I don’t assume, I check. What is irrational is assuming without checking. And I found that it

“
tends to be vegetarians who are doing the latter, rather a lot.

What sources would you cite to back up the claim that “[f]armed animals do not experience any more suffering
than they would experience in the wild”?

Or, put more clearly, what is it you check?

R E P LY

P ETER H UR F OR D • D EC EMBER 1 3, 201 1 , 1 0:37 P M

Also, what do you make of the claims made by Vegan Outreach? I’m personally waffling on the
vegetarianism/veganism issue which is why I was curious about your opinion, but it is really odd that there is such
a sharp dispute over animals’ quality of life.

R E P LY

R OLLI N I A DELI C I OSA • DEC EMBER 14, 2011, 12:13 AM

In a humorously ironic restatement of one of my previous points, you’re essentially saying that an invisible 3-omni
system is more reasonable than the the absence of a system

R E P LY

JER EMIA H • DECEMBER 14, 2011, 8:25 AM

“
“Thus it’s about self-awareness and conceptual consciousness: an entity that is self-aware has
personal properties (they think of themselves and others and understand the nature of their
circumstances) and thus is a valuing agent and therefore valuable”

These all seem to be rather vaguely defined terms. Lacking the ability to communicate how do we determine
one’s self awareness? If for instance I lacked speech and writing, how would I go about displaying my self-
awareness to you? If an animal recognizes itself, say in a mirror, rather than thinking it is another animal would
that qualify as self-awareness? If it is not, then what is it? I am just trying to pin down the criteria here since it is
supposed to be the defining demarcation where killing becomes unacceptable. And what does it mean to
‘understand their circumstances’? Does a severely mentally handicapped person understand their circumstances?
This seems extremely fuzzy, as I have a hard time seeing how a new born baby would display an ‘understanding
of their circumstances’ at any level higher than your average dog, yet killing of babies because of this fact is
certainly not condoned.

Often the debate about eating meat is defined in black and white, it is either okay or not okay but if we use
things like we have discussing then I think the line of demarcation clearly falls somewhere in between. Like killing
of for example pigs, or most mammals would not be okay but the killing of a trout probably would be. It is not
so much about meat/not meat, but whether the animals being killed possesses certain characteristics.

Honestly it just seems like a sort of species-ism. Killing people is not okay, anything else is fair game. The
wrangling about self-awareness and so on just seems to be cover. Like the idea that a business should be
allowed to serve (or not) whomever they please. This can be a legitimate cause, but despite it’s legitimacy it was
often used as cover by racists to justify them not wanting to serve people that weren’t white. Here notions of the
ability to fulfill desires and consciousness and such are all legitimate but I wonder if they are not simply being
used as cover for a position of pure species-ism.

R E P LY

GILGAMES H • DECEMBER 14, 2011, 8:46 AM

@Richard
Thank you for the links to the criticisms for the China Study in post 18. I had seen the one from Dr. Hall before,
and the very long post as well. However, from some review of the third and fourth links do not reach the
conclusion you seem to hold strongly.

The first link is half-dedicated to the very extensive critique by Denise Minger and his thought process before
reading the book, so I will jump over that to talk about the authors review of the book. Unfortunately, every
single point looks like psychological projection. For example, he claims Campbell (author of the book, “The
China Study”) is deceptive in making people think that the experiments Campbell ran were on people rather than
rats. This is simply wrong as both before and after the passage in question Campbell is clear that his experiment
was on rats. The context of the study was placed well in the chapter, and this is even admitted by the blogger.
So his statements that Campbell was committing obfuscation was itself an example of the very thing. The blogger
also speculations about how rats may have to special evolutionary advantage concerning their diet and cancer,
but not only is it speculative but it fails to account for the data from the China Study and the human cancer study
from the Philippines also conducted by Campbell. Add to this the obvious quote-mine from p. 107 of
Campbell’s book, a few personal insults, and more obfuscation and the post is worthless.

The post by Dr. Hall is very balanced, and her work is in other places is excellent and extensive (like most all
posts at Science Based Medicine). However, here she brings up things that undercut her points. For example,
she talks about a bad source used by Campbell, but not only is Campbell not sourcing the author in question for
his bad protocol; after all, if I cite your work on Hitler’s Table Talk, and they criticize me because you got
something wrong unrelated to the matter, then my citation is crap, you would agree that that is not proper
method but the “baggage fallacy” (this is your 12th axiom of historical investigations, after all). Besides, Hall
points to other studies that give the same conclusion Campbell had, so this “poor citation” didn’t even undercut
the argument at all. Dr. Hall also points out that other studies contradict Campbell’s conclusions, but Hall also
agrees with Campbell on how these other studies (such as the Nurses’ Study) are problematic. Again, the only
studies Hall provided she agrees does not have the strength to overturn Campbell’s studies. Dr. Hall does point
to interesting exceptions, but could this be committing a logical fallacy, of having an anomaly override a larger
trend? I agree that the China Study does not prove the case for veganism/vegetarianism, but the evidence is not
so undermined by Dr. Hall’s post.

Now, I have not reviewed the amazingly long post by Minger, and it’s longer than a critique of a Kent Hovind
lecture, so I will not say if it is weak or not. All the more to explore. Nonetheless, from what I have seen in the
other posts, it seems unwise to throw Campbell’s book under the bus. It’s also telling that the fourth blog post
you linked to said that he accepted Minger’s out of confirmation bias, but that hardly means anything. I have
more to explore. I just think these posts that I have gone over deserve more critical appraisal than you seem to
have given them.
R E P LY

GILGAMES H • DECEMBER 14, 2011, 8:49 AM

@jt512
You said you would not respond further to me about the China Study. I don’t understand why; if I am deluded,
please help me! If I am making a decent point, please acknowledge it. I don’t pretend to be a medical expert,
and you have a strong background in this area. Please hit me with knowledge!

R E P LY

DAVED • DECEMBER 14, 2011, 11:16 AM

Thanks for those links Richard. I’m still trying to catch up here. Doesn’t another animal, regardless of its
awareness of its own life, still value that life even if not anthropomorphically?

R E P LY

JA SON GOER TZ EN • DEC EMBER 14, 2011, 12:05 P M

Instinctively avoiding threats and recoiling from pain is not the same thing as having a concept of ‘life’ that is
contrasted with the concept of ‘death.’ Farm animals do not conceptualize like this. Imagining that farm animals
understand morality and prefer to live long lives rather than short lives is anthropomorphism.

It’s a function of the human brain that we have developed concepts of the self, that we project ourselves into
hypothetical futures, and have preferences relating to these futures. Animals don’t do this: they simply aren’t
capable of understanding that their lives are going to be shorter than they might have been, and of finding that
objectionable.

Honestly, as non-human animals go, being fed and sheltered, kept free of parasites, and given quick deaths is a
relatively comfortable life. It’s not quite on par with our pets–but it’s certainly better than wild animals.

Richard:

Where do you draw the line? I can say for sure that I wouldn’t eat a chimpanzee (unless circumstances were
pretty dire), and that I would eat a cow. I understand pigs are relatively intelligent–possibly more intelligent than
dogs: should that factor in?

R E P LY

A LEC TH A R • DECEMBER 14, 2011, 12:28 PM

DaveD (#46):
I suppose you could assert that any living thing “values” its life if you considered the basic, instinctual drive to
survive and reproduce to be the “valuing” of their own life.

But even that doesn’t necessarily hold water. Some species (lemmings, for example) engage in self-destructive
behavior, and many species engage in mass migration and spawning through areas where predators exist (salmon
swimming upstream past bears) and play a numbers game, disdaining to ensure the survival of any particular
individual (including themselves) in favor of making sure enough of their number reproduce and perpetuate the
species.

It seems to me that most animals exhibit none of the care for life (both their own and that of the fellows) that
even a human being suffering from mental retardation (used here in the clinical sense)would.

Speaking of, I do have to take issue with Mr. Carrier’s use of “retarded” as a perjorative in these comments.
It’s a clinical diagnoses with some clearly negative stigma attached to it, describing an argument as “retarded”
rather than more descriptive and (potentially) accurate terms like “illogical” or “irrational” (words Mr. Carrier
clearly has no issue with using) is unnecessary and, frankly, somewhat offensive.

R E P LY

JT5 12 • D EC EMBER 1 4, 201 1 , 1 :56 P M

@gilgamesh, regarding the ecologic fallacy, I’ll try one more time.

It is impossible to draw conclusions about an association between two variables at the individual level from the
association between the average level of those variables at the population level. This is because there is no
mathematical relationship between the two. For example, a strong positive correlation at the population level is
consistent with any conceivable correlation at the individual level; the individual-level correlation could be
anything from a strong positive correlation to zero correlation to a strong negative correlation. The population-
level correlation is simply uninformative about the individual-level correlation.

This is not a specific criticism of the China Health Study. It applies to every ecologic study that attempts to
attribute the ecologic-level correlation to individuals in the population. Once you understand this fact, you don’t
have to read lengthy criticisms of the China Study. In fact, I suspect, that anyone who has written a lengthy
criticism of the China Study doesn’t, themselves, understand this, because, if they did, then then would only have
written a criticism as long as this post.

All you need to understand, in order to throw the China Study and every other ecologic study that attempts to
apply its findings at the individual level, under the bus is this graph.

What that graph shows is the actual prevalence of obesity in the US vs. the actual per capita chicken
consumption in the US using official USDA data from 1971 to 2006.These data are represented by the black
triangles. These are ecologic (ie, population-level) data, similar to typical China study data in the sense that they
are data on prevalence of some disease or condition vs per capita consumption of a dietary factor. As the graph
suggests, the ecologic-level correlation is strongly positive. In fact, it is 0.99.

However, no one really thinks that chicken is the cause of the US obesity epidemic. White meats, like chicken,
are generally lower in fat than red meats, and tend to be preferred by health-conscious individuals; so it is
plausible that, on the individual level, chicken consumption could be negatively correlated with BMI, perhaps
even strongly.
To illustrate that such a strong negative correlation is perfectly compatible with a strong positive population-level
correlation, I superimposed on the graph hypothetical data representing chicken intake and BMI of a random
sample of individuals from the population at each time point. The mean chicken intake of the individuals at each
time point is exactly equal to the per capita intake (ie, the black triangle) at that time point. Therefore these
individual data are completely compatible with the population-level data.

Of course, the true correlation between individual-level chicken intake and BMI could be different; although it
could be negative, as pictured, it could also be positive or neutral. The point is that the population-level
correlation is completely uninformative about what is going on at the individual level.

Once you understand this, then you can safely ignore the results of any ecologic study that claims that the results
can be applied to the individuals in the study. Modern epidemiologists understand this well, and essentially never
make this sort of claim. Campbell, whose background is nutrition, not epidemiology, does not understand this—
at least he didn’t 10 years ago when I had a rather heated argument with him about it. It’s too bad for him and
his unfortunate students, because they could have invested their energies into investigating their hypotheses by
using valid methodologies, and actually learned something from their data.

Jay

R E P LY

JOH N N Y P • DECEMBER 14, 2011, 3:16 PM

Richard

My friend recently became a vegan, and being something of a philosopher myself, I tested her newfound
evangelism and found it wanting, since she started with a conclusion and assumed the arguments towards it. I
tried to put her right on a few points.

However, on reflection, and since i am a meat eater and have studied morality, I have a feeling meat eaters ARE
less ethical than vegetarians. I think on consequentialist and utilitarian ethics, meat-eaters cause more issues than
vegetarians, and I am fairly sure this is quite easy to support philosophically. i know Peter Singer is hot on this.

Interestingly, I have come to the conclusion that when I argued against vegetarianism, it was a knee-jerk reaction
of cognitive dissonance. I think recognising one’s own cognitive dissonance is really important, since we spend
an awful lot of time accusing Christians of committing to it on a regular basis!

So, and with the greatest respect, I wonder whether the foundation for your defence of meat eating is cognitive
dissonance and the disharmony of your enjoyment of eating meat, the effort of changing over, and your not
wanting to admit you are morally less ethical than you could be.

When I understood my position, I reconciled this with simply admitting that I am lazy and not perfect, though my
partner and I have switched to being vege two days a week: flexitarian!

Obviously it depends on your ethics, but given what you espouse in SAGWG (an excellent book, mind), it
seems odd that you would not extend much of the philosophy to animals. Surely a world with animal pain is
worse than one without? And the environmental arguments seem to be very strongly in favour of vegetarianism.

Do you adhere to any kind of pluralistic consequentialism, such as there might be some other kind of end goal
that as well as happiness?

R E P LY

JOH N N Y P • DECEMBER 14, 2011, 3:37 PM

To put it in a more simplistic sense:

Do you really and honestly think that a world which was vegetarian be no better than the present world / a world
which ate meat?

Ie, a world where billions of animals died to feed us, but that is not necessary that they die (ie we can live as
vegetarians).

You can even break that down from the world to your local state to avoid confusing the matter with practical
logistics.

R E P LY

RICH ARD CARRIER • DECEMBER 14, 2011, 3:41 PM

Note on comment posting and response delays: please see my recent post on current status. If your
comment hasn’t posted yet, and you can’t think why it wouldn’t, that’s probably why: I just haven’t gotten to it
yet. There are at least sixty now still waiting my approval, for this thread alone. It will take me time to get to
them, for the reasons explained in the above link.

R E P LY

PA U LH O WA R D • D E C E MBE R 1 5, 201 1 , 1 2:33 P M

I just added this blog to my rss today, and this first post I see is so contradictory to my understanding of
environmental science (this issue has been my chief concern for almost 20 years) that it’s hard to read without
feeling a little ill. I’ll have to come back to this later, when time permits.

R E P LY

S C _ 8 E 9 4 3 74 B 3 D 8 8 5 1 3 74 9 6 0 E C 6 2 3 1 2 F 0 C B 2 • D E C E M B E R 1 5 , 2 0 1 1 , 4 : 4 2 P M

Richard,

Following up on my quick message this afternoon, I have a few comments. It was meant to be in order, but I
took quick notes on stickies and they got mixed up.

1. The essay begins with accusations of fraud by animal welfare interests, but you provide no evidence
whatsoever. If your idea is true, one might expect agribusiness operators to be happy to show their farm
practices to reporters instead of pushing for recording of images and sound on farms to become illegal without
consent of the agribusiness operator. http://www.greenisthenewred.com/blog/florida-photography-
undercover-investigator-bill-chris-lagergren/5383/

2. I just noticed the graphic you posted comparing cow methane emissions to grass methane emissions. The
grass emissions are produced by anaerobic digester. Is that realistic? How often do you think grass
decomposition in nature is anaerobic? I’m sorry but that’s just stupid.

3. Your portrayal of animals in extreme confinement as not suffering is ridiculous. I recall reading a study of
hermit crabs a few years ago that demonstrated that they exhibit signs of feeling pain, suffering, and retaining a
memory of the event.

4. Another confinement issue, even if you deny animals’ ability to suffer, is antibiotic resistance evolving in
pathogens, which is becoming a serious problem for human health. Did you know about that?

5. Since you accuse vegetarians of being inconsistent by having friendships with meat eaters while seeing it as
evil, I’ll just come out and say that I am have been so upset and disgusted for so long with people eating so
much meat despite its horrors, that if I did not have responsibility to my wife and children I would have killed
myself already and offered my dead body for the “population is the problem” meat eaters to feast upon. If I
could move to a reasonably habitable vegetarian planet, I would do it immediately.

6. The method of pretending that water used to grow livestock feed is not under the livestock sector but under
the agricultural crops sector is like saying that we humans are only responsible for the water that we drink and
use to wash, etc., but not what we use to grow food. This magical wand-waving, if applied consistently, can
make the whole problem go away, on paper. In reality, since you can’t grow animals without water used to
grow their food, the water to produce their food must be counted under the livestock sector. It’s also worth
mention that the Ogallala Aquifer, which provides nearly 1/3 of the nation’s irrigation water will become
unproductive over the next few more decades, so water is going to be a big problem.

7. The virtually permanent loss of forest to feed production is a one-time cost? Seriously, WTF? You’re writing
off the loss of Brazilian rain forest as insignificant.

8. You call avoiding meat useless, and it looks like you studied this issue for about a day or so. I’ve been
studying it for 19 years and am convinced that it is the best thing an ordinary individual can do for the
environment, by a long shot. Still I’m practically nobody, but what authority do you have to challenge the FAO
with your amateur estimations and obvious bias?

9. You call it irrational to work for change that cannot occur. I assert that it is irrational to not work for change
that must occur to avoid catastrophe, regardless of the non-zero odds of success. I do not expect everyone to
become vegetarian, and I even admit that meat consumption under specific circumstances is helpful for the
environment (such as eating fresh roadkill). I expect I would be just about satisfied with the changes that would
quickly occur if the USA stopped subsidizing agricultural meat production, though I cannot imagine how this can
be done politically.

10. You call meat production highly efficient, which is an extreme stretch. It is efficient at concentrating nutrients
and pollutants, but very inefficient at conserving energy. I don’t know if you took anything resembling Ecology
101, but I seem to remember that about 90% of the energy stored in plants consumed by animals is used by the
animal or lost to the environment.

11. You claim that water is not wasted by meat production, but a poster I have (not in front of me at the
moment) from National Geographic, I believe from this year, indicates that to produce a pound of beef requires
about 1845 gallons of water, whereas to produce a pound of corn (for example) for human consumption
requires only about 109 gallons of water. Most vegetable foods on the chart require less water than corn.

12. Cows on factory farms don’t produce fertilizer in the sense of it being useful. Their overabundance of
manure is a waste, which often becomes a serious pollutant. I actually have a small farm sanctuary with one cow,
a few sheep and goats, etc., and they produce fertilizer. It’s radically different, practically, depending on the ratio
of manure to the land available for spreading it upon.

I’m out of time for now, but that’s most of what I wanted to say.

R E P LY

GILGAMES H • DECEMBER 15, 2011, 10:24 PM

@jt512
That was very informative. Thank you for taking the time to explain this.

However, I already did believe you that an ecological study alone is not sufficient to make the sorts of
conclusions Campbell et al. have. In fact even Campbell knows that (see Carrier’s fourth critical link about the
China Study which has a quote from him on this very point). All an ecological study should be able to do is
direct research–you see a promising correlation, try to see if there is something causing that correlation.
Nonetheless, Campbell had done the sorts of studies that finds mechanisms for this, that, and the other. If those
lines of research are not done, then the ecological fallacy is committed, but at least in his book Campbell tries
finding reasons for the correlations.

Now, I cannot say yet how good Campbell’s other studies are, and I will need to see the critique of Minger and
others to see what undercuts his hypotheses. Nonetheless, it seems that Campbell does avoid at least this one
fallacy.

R E P LY

K AR IMGH AN TOUS • D EC EMBER 1 6 , 201 1 , 1 :03 AM

LykeX:

“
I wonder if you have a reference for that. I’ve heard the claim before, but mostly the people
saying it have been nutjobs, so I’m a bit wary of it.

What is it about processed milk that is supposedly bad for you?

I first read it in Fit for Life by Harvey and Marilyn Diamond. I have had it affirmed by several other persons, at
least one of which was on friendly terms with a physiologist.

The problem is that processing does two things: it causes the casein protein to effectively clog the inner surface
of the intestines. IIRC this prevents the villi (which are found only in the small intestine I think – gosh, my
anatomical knowledge needs improvement) from operating efficiently. And it prevents the absorption of calcium
– which is still present, but it can’t be accessed.

In sum: processing makes milk a junk food. (Got Milk? Like hell I do.)

I do have it sometimes in coffee though. And sometimes I have cheese simply because it tastes good, not
because of pretensions of nutrition.

In Australia you can by non-homogenized milk. In the USA you can buy raw milk in some places.

R E P LY

LY K E X • D E C E M B E R 1 6 , 2 0 1 1 , 2 : 3 7 A M

Thanks for that. I’ll have to look into it.

R E P LY

JT5 12 • D EC EMBER 1 6 , 201 1 , 9 :41 AM

@Gilgamesh #49:

“
All an ecological study should be able to do is direct research–you see a promising correlation,
try to see if there is something causing that correlation. Nonetheless, Campbell had done the
sorts of studies that finds mechanisms for this, that, and the other.

Well, for the third time you don’t get and just repeat your same argument.

Since the correlation at the ecologic level is mathematically unrelated to the correlation at the individual level,
then how can the correlation at the ecologic level be promising? And even if you think it is promising, since it is
mathematically unrelated to the correlation at the individual level, then the only way to verify it would be to do
research at the individual level in that population. Rat studies cannot confirm the results of an ecologic
correlation study.

There’s also some confusion about what the term “The China Study” refers. The actual China Study was an
ecologic correlation study among 65 counties in China conducted in the 1980s. It’s relevance was blown all out
of proportion by the media (NYT, I think), which dubbed it “The Grand Prix of Nutritional Epidemiology.” Well,
the “Grand Prix” generated 31 papers in peer review journals, per a search for “China and Campbell TC” in
Pubmed. To put the “Grand Prix” in perspective, a Pubmed search for “Nurses Health Study and Willett WC”
returns 445 papers. In other words, compared to a high-quality nutritional epidemiology study, very little
deemed worth publishing in a peer review journal came out of the China Study.

Physicist Sean Carroll has said (paraphrasing) that “when physicists learn something important, they publish a
paper on it and get it peer reviewed; when they don’t, they write a whole book about it.” Apparently, the same
can be said of nutritionists, since Campbell wrote an 800+ page book called Diet, Life-Style, and Mortality in
China detailing the methodology and the findings of the China Study.

Now, apparently, Campbell has written a popular-level book also called The China Study that isn’t specifically
about the original China Study, but rather, according to Micheal Eades, MD, is nothing more than “a book-
length argument for a personal opinion masquerading as hard science.”

So, when I talk about the China Study, I’m talking about the actual China Study, not the popular book with the
misleading title, or other research that Campbell may have done.

Jay

R E P LY

S C _ 8 F 2 5 7 5 C 3 9 C 8 E B D 3 A 1 D 1 C A 74 8 3 A 4 1 1 9 1 C • D E C E M B E R 1 7, 2 0 1 1 , 1 : 3 6 P M

“[…]vegetarians die exactly as often as nonvegetarians do”

so… once, right?

R E P LY

S C _ 8 F 2 5 7 5 C 3 9 C 8 E B D 3 A 1 D 1 C A 74 8 3 A 4 1 1 9 1 C • D E C E M B E R 1 7, 2 0 1 1 , 2 : 3 3 P M

“
…the industry is actually a lot smarter and cleaner than propagandists represent.

Granted. I think we all agree that PETA is a bunch of lying whiny bitches with warped views of morality. But
clean killing is still killing. I don’t murder my son and then say “I had a right to, I treated him nice his whole life”.
To kill humanely is still to kill, which brings us right unto the topic of suffering:

“
 “
an animal’s life is indifferent to when it dies, because it does not become anything and has no
awareness of being something”

That claim is, as far as I know, completely without scientific basis. Neuroscience is at it, and one of the things
they did confirm is that a grown cow has more awareness of self and surroundings than a two year old human
child.
Awareness is a difference of degree, not of kind. I don’t have a problem with the killing of a fly, but I do see an
ethical problem with killing a being as far up the complexity scale of life as a grown mammal. Cows are definitely
capable of suffering, and that’s the entire point. Sure, they suffer less than a human would being subjected to
the same treatment, but that can also be said of many mentally handicapped people, as well as comatose
patients.
I don’t see how you can uphold that argument without destroying the basis to the right for life for anything else
than a fully capable human being.

“
It’s to treat animals like people, which they are not.

No, it is not. Classic Utilitarianism as much as all its variations uphold SUFFERING as the key element by which
to judge the morality of an action. You simply claim that animals have no interest in living (and since no right not
to be killed), which is baseless at best, and proven to be outright wrong in the case of complex mammals.

Concerning the various environmental claims you make, I am not knowledgable enough to debunk them. I’ll do
my best to check, though. One thing I can tell for sure is complete bullshit (pun intended?):

“
Lose the Cows, and Get Screwed by the Grass

Right, because of course we have no other options of but to let grass grow wild and “screw” us all. How could
we possibly utilize unused pasture? It’s not like land was one of the scarcest commodities there is.
Also, the environmental argument argument does not rely on cow-farts as the primary source of meat-caused
greenhouse gases. The enormous infrastructure behind the meat industry is a much more important point. Vast
transport routes between all the intermediate points in the production, all for an industry that does not serve our
survival, but merely our taste.
I doubt that you can deny that growing plants (and fertilzer and and and) and transporting them to humans for
consumption is more efficient than growing all that shit, transporting it to animals, killing them, transporting them,
processing them, THEN transport them to the humans.
I’m not sure your “it’s all waste!” claim is up to date, either. Modern factories like to feed their stock high
protein food: Soy and fish flour. The latter is a waste product, but also needs to be processed and transported.
And there is an entire industry farming high-yield-low-quality grains specifically for cattle feed, failing to utilize
the land for the production of plants fit for human nourishment.

I agree that there are a number of bullshit claims out there. Many of yours are as bad and as misleading as those
made by PETA.
In the end, we live on a planet with a huge population of starving humans, but chose to feed, shelter and maintain
an obscenely huge population of kattle instead, which only exists in the first place because we bred them for the
sole reason that we like the taste of steak. I find that grotesque to the highest degree.

R E P LY

A N D R E W G . • D E C E M B E R 1 7, 2 0 1 1 , 3 : 0 0 P M

“
I first read it in Fit for Life by Harvey and Marilyn Diamond. I have had it affirmed by several
other persons, at least one of which was on friendly terms with a physiologist.

You read it in a crank book and had it affirmed via chinese whispers from an unspecified physiologist at two
removes? This is not a reliable source.

R E P LY

S I N G H 7 6 • D E C E M B E R 1 7, 2 0 1 1 , 4 : 1 5 P M

This has been an informative debate to read about and is a important issue to discuss, with many implications
and consequences. I have yet to see a comprehensive counter argument from an individual advocating
vegetarianism addressing Richard’s many points. With the exception of Jay, who explaining his credentials as a
nutritional epidemiologist, and biostatistician, and clearly breaking down the importance of the Sinha study
compared to the flaws in Richard’s Key study, presents a more sound argument why meat consumption is
associated with an increase in mortality on a dose- response basis. So unless Richard can explain why Jay in his
last post addressing these issues he brought up, I will would tentatively say, until more good quality studies are
produced, the scientific evidence seems to show vegetarianism does have health benefits.
As much as I would like to add my own thoughts to this debate, after reading the most comprehensive article in
favor of vegetarianism I have read yet, I think it best to just give link to the article. And save myself years of
research to produce an argument that may barley resemble the article I will reference. This article covers all of
Richard’s main points and gives counter arguments in detail with references. It is written by a scholar, Dr.
William O. Stephens, who has a P.h.D in philosophy. Here is the link:
http://puffin.creighton.edu/phil/stephens/fiveargumentsforvegetarianism.htm

It would be pointless to for me to find research and arguments in favor of vegetarianism, when there is already in
existence a detailed, and referenced paper on the topic. Which articulates the counter-argument far better than I
could create, to be honest. So I think it is best to have a real debate on the topic to go to sources, like the one it
just mentioned, written by scholars who are some the leading “experts” or voices on the topic. Then we can get
to the heart of the main issues like Richard has covered so comprehensively. I hope this paper when read, will
lead to cover topics and perspectives not yet discussed, and thereby further the debate, and others
understanding on this important issue.

R E P LY

EEEEEE • DECEMBER 18, 2011, 2:06 AM

A lot of bullshit in the comments. I want to explain one thing:

If cows are corn-fed, they are not grain-fed. If you grow corn for feeding cows, you cut and feed the whole
plant. And corn is a type grass. So you are actually feeding them grass, it’s just grass that grows higher, which
makes it possible to feed more cows with less soil.

And that’s another aspect you have to have in mind if you compare human-consumable grain with corn feed,
because if you would grow crops for human food, you would let the plant grow until you have only a little grain
and tons of (unfeedable) straw instead of tons of feedable corn feed.

R E P LY

S C O T LY N • D E C E M B E R 1 8 , 2 0 1 1 , 1 2 : 1 0 P M

This is an excellent post and discussion thread. Thank you for opening up this discussion to rational debate.

I would like to comment, not from a researchers point of view, but from the point of view of an “insider”
observer. I am myself a pasture-based livestock farmer. I read a lot, but am a scientific layperson and stand to
be corrected on points of fact or of logical fallacy.

I have long been frustrated with the easy assumption that vegetarianism will lead to more sustainability and less
environmental degradation. It is my view, based on my practical understanding of farming and food production,
that the opposite may be true.

Firstly, true long-term sustainability in agriculture requires the intelligent replication of complex, biodiverse
ecosystems. We humans cannot exist in a vacuum of our own making, and we deplete the soil that is essential to
growing our food, and destroy the biodiversity that is essential to the biological resilience of all living things,
including ourselves, at our peril.

Here’s what I know, in this context, about the sustainability of pastured livestock keeping vs. grain-growing
(whether for human or animal consumption).

Pasturing livestock replicates an ancient, sustainable and complex ecosystem – that between grazers and
perennial multispecies grasses – seen, for example in the teeming herds that once roamed the grasslands of
Europe, Asia, Africa and America (copiously burping and farting, I might add, the gases produced by their
cohabiting methanogens, some of the most ancient inhabitants of this planet). These herds ate richly of, and
tramped their manure into, a form of plantlife that had evolved not only to withstand, but to thrive under this
treatment. High level predators were always a part of this ecosystem also, keeping herds bunched together for
safety (which maximised footfall impact), and keeping the on the move (which maximised rest periods between
“treatments”). Our modern livestock herds lack predators and freedom of movement, but, using methods that
replicate the effects of these can improve the quality of soil, grass, water, local biodiversity, local crop fertility,
human health and wealth, and the size of the herd itself, as has been demonstrated by 2010 Buckminster Fuller
winner, Allan Savory.

In contrast, growing grain requires biocide on a large scale. Land must be cleared of all “weeds” and “vermin”
(many of which are as cute and furry as any lamb) before planting a mono-crop of an annual grass – whose
natural ecosystem function was to be a forerunner in the re-population of species in the aftermath of any natural
disaster – fire, flood, earthquake – that left the earth bare and sterile. Instead of allowing these annual grasses to
perform that function and be quickly followed in succession by more diverse perennial species (“weeds”) and
exploited by animals (“vermin”), which would heal and rebuild the soil substrate, we replicate the emergency,
and ensure the ongoing sterility such a crop requires, year on year. The extent of soil destruction this entails can
be witnessed in the current state of the original “Fertile Crescent” – still largely sterile five to ten thousand years
after the first domestication of annual grasses.

It should be noted in passing, that it simply would not be an option for this farm to switch to growing crops of
any vegetable kind, apart from some horticultural crops, such as fruit trees, fruit bushes, and potatoes (which
have a place on our farm already), because of the hilliness of the land, which precludes the use of tractors. Thus,
our livestock could not, by any stretch, be accused of using land or crops that would otherwise be “people
food.” Instead, they are able to make efficient use of marginal land, which easily grows grass and stones in
plenty, eat this inedible grass, and recycle it into “people food.” However, in a bigger picture, our farm also
builds soils year on year (itself a huge carbon sink – I wonder is this accounted for in the carbon footprint figures
cited?), supports a diversity of wildlife – all sorts of trees, shrubs and other herbage in hedgerows, etc. Badgers,
foxes, herons, etc all make their homes here undisturbed.

Also, we recently bore witness to the side effects of the EU’s long term farm policies aimed at reducing livestock
numbers. Large parts of our neighbouring lands are carrying less than 10% of the livestock numbers that
formerly roamed rather freely, under an ancient “commonage” system. Undergrazing has its own hazards –
among others the failure of dead grasses to be trodden into the soil to decay – instead standing proud in the field,
dead and weathering and becoming a fire hazard. Also the overgrowth of inflammable gorse and other species.
The inevitable happened early this year when the weather conspired to be dry and breezy – massive gorse fires,
which also destroyed adjacent forests on hundreds of acres.

There are many more points that could be made, but the central point is that you cannot have a sustainable
ecosystem without animals, plants and microbes, all working together. And no food supply that depends on
ecosystem and soil destruction can be sustainable in the long term.

R E P LY

S C O T LY N • D E C E M B E R 1 8 , 2 0 1 1 , 1 2 : 4 1 P M

PS. There should be no such thing as surplus manure. Manure (including our own) is the number one resource
we have for replenishing and rebuilding the soil. And soil is our only guarantee of food security into the future.
(Petroleum derived fertilizers supply nutrients that make plant growth possible on depleted soils, but do litte to
replenish or rebuild those soils. Also, as petroleum is a finite resource, they are unlikely to be available to us in
the long-term.)
Manure is most efficiently applied directly to the soild by the animals themselves, but when this is not possible,
then manure should be immediately captured into an organic bedding/biolitter system (straw, old hay, etc). I am
not familiar with the detail of the chemical processes described above which can turn some of the nitrogen in
urine into ammonia, but I do know that the urine of properly bedded animals does not ever produce ammonia
smells. My understanding is that urine and feces which are immediately absorbed and incorporated into an
organic bedding begin to aerobically compost by means of the activity of thermophilic bacteria (farmers round
here call this process “heatin'”) and by-pass the ammonia-producing step). Animals that are housed with a
proper thickness of organic bedding/biolitter never produce any unpleasant smells, and their manure immediately
stops being waste (something useless and potentially polluting), as it begins to become compost (something
useful and non-polluting) immediately.

R E P LY

GILGAMES H • DECEMBER 19 , 2011, 1:45 AM

@jt512
I fear we may be talking past each other to some degree, but let me say that I do see your point. To be clearer,
an ecological study can be useful for further research such as by conduct of a cohort study. I see your point that
rats studies are not sufficient to explain an ecological analysis, and you are certainly correct.

I also want to clarify that the “China Study” I had been referring to is the book by Campbell from 2005.Your
criticisms of the actual China Study are spot-on, so I will also take them into consideration when they are used
to prop up dietary claims. I read the blog by Dr. Eades you mentioned, and Carrier had linked to it before. I
also noted that his criticisms of the book seemed sub-par at best. Nonetheless, I wish to continue to explore the
subject matter and not dismiss it because it is in a book. (Besides, Campbell has written journal articles for his
position as well.)

R E P LY

F LIMS YMAN • DECEMBER 19 , 2011, 3:04 PM

http://ziztur.com/2011/12/so-meat-good-then.html

Response post on my own blog. Any input welcome!

R E P LY

S AIN T GAS OLIN E • DECEMBER 19 , 2011, 6 :39 PM

Richard, forgive me, but your arguments are completely ludicrous, and they assume a false dichotomy between
supporting vegetarianism/veganism and supporting other environmental efforts. When I say that if everyone were
to become vegan/vegetarian it would improve emissions, that is 100% truth, and you know it. The ONLY way
you can argue otherwise is to then tack on some bullshit that I would also disagree with. That is, you have to
argue that, provided everyone adopted a diet without meat, they’d take up other behaviors that harm the
environment. But you know what? I’d say we should regulate THOSE behaviors as well! You seem to think that
those of us who incorporate environmental reasons into our veganism/vegetarianism think that this diet choice is
the SOLE and ONLY answer to environmental problems, and your entire criticism is rooted in that quite false
belief. So if you want to talk about who’s being irrational here, let’s remember who is the one straw-manning the
other position here! In effect, what I’m saying is “Eating less meat results in fewer emissions,” and your response
is “Eating less meat DOESN’T result in fewer emissions, assuming that the meat-eating behavior is replaced with
behaviors like driving Hummers 200 miles every day, shooting puppies with gas-guzzling flamethrowers, and
raping grandmothers with winter tomatoes.” Guess what? Most people who are vegetarian/vegan for
environmental reasons would ALSO be working to prevent emissions that would come from those additional
sources you’d tack on as “replacement behaviors.” It’s obviously a straw man and I’m amazed you commit to it
so strongly all the while insinuating that it is the other side being irrational and making false assumptions…

In regards to animal feed, sure, some of it may be from waste from human crops, but A LOT of it is from feed
crops, which uses a lot of land and creates a lot of unnecessary emissions. And like I said, the ONLY way you
can argue that universalizing vegetarianism wouldn’t produce fewer emissions would be to tack on a completely
baseless assumption that other behaviors would be worse for the environment. Do you really think those who
change their diet for environmental reasons would then advocate and support practices that harm the
environment more? Do you really think we also advocate abandoning technological research into energy
alternatives and other ways to mitigate climate change? Don’t be silly. You are assuming that vegetarianism
equates with an all-or-nothing worldview that sees reducing meat intake as the ONLY source to a better world.
That’s not the case.

My point is simple, and it isn’t about what is practical or what would work in a prisoner’s dilemma. It’s about
what is ethical. And no one can deny that it is more ethical to eat less meat or to try to mitigate harm to the
environment. If we lived in a world where people did not eat so much meat and where we took those steps as
well as others to reduce environmental impacts, the world would be a better place. There would be less animal
suffering. There would be less environmental damage. The only point in which you can make your case is
whether seeking these goals is realizable or practical. But simply because something isn’t practical doesn’t mean
it isn’t ethical. Again, I think you are completely wrong to equate whether something would work with whether it
would be ethical. Someone who advocates not killing is ethical. Someone who advocates killing a few minorities
because some authoritarian power will only be appeased in that way is not ethical. They may be the most
practical in that scenario, but certainly not the most ethical.

(As for your digression about politics, while I agree that Supreme Court justice selection is important, certainly it
hasn’t escaped your notice that Executive powers are continually increasing, rendering the “checks” of the courts
and other legislative bodies increasingly superficial, especially when it comes to foreign policy. Obama has a
record almost as bad as Bush’s, and worse in some respects, when it comes to abuses of Executive powers [his
abuse of the state secrets privilege has been especially frightening and telling]. Give it more time. I fear the
Executive branch will one day be able to detain or imprison anyone they like without having to give any reason,
and the courts and legislative bodies will dutifully defer to the President because we’re in a war with a concept
rather than an actual nation. For the record, I do not think the answer is voting for a third party. I am not sure
what the answer is, to be frank, but I certainly don’t see voting for Democrats ending this problem, only
prolonging our descent into this sort of insane police state rather than plunging us into it quickly. I’d almost prefer
a quick plunge, as that at least would wake up people who are indifferent. At any rate, my greater point with that
comment, though, was that an individual vote is quite pointless and worthless, and hence you’d think a game
theorist would have no problem advocating against voting and instead opting for a more direct route to change,
like say lobbying your representatives or throwing a molotov cocktail through their windows.)

R E P LY
 R A P TOR • DECEMBER 20, 2011, 8:41 PM

Here’s another reason to eat animals. Many various of animals are currently in danger of extinction because we
stopped eating them. Here is a list http://albc-usa.org/cpl/wtchlist.html from the the american livestock breeds
conservancy.

I have to wonder what PETA and the rest propose we do with all these animals once we stop eating them. And
how, exactly, we go about persevering the genetic diversity of the breeds. Though, I suspect some people who
simply not care if all long horns (for example) went extinct because they aren’t ‘real’ animals. (As a side note, I
realize that a breed is not the same thing as a species.)

On top of that, I often seriously wonder if any vegetarian has actually seen the mass harvest of crops before.
Those 100+ birds aren’t following the tractor to catch seeds. I grew up in Texas, which has rice fields. The
sheer mass of small animals on the land is staggering. And anything not fast enough or lucky enough gets
chopped and spit out with the other waste.

It also seems that we have been farming for so long that there are many species of animal (birds, mice, ect) that
depend on farming animals. Especially in Europe. I can’t find this paper atm, but it was awhile back and that was
what struck me as interesting. Mostly because it seems with some people they care about the big animals. The
cow, the horse, the pig. And totally forget the smaller ones.

And then, we would have to clear out more land, cut down more forest, to plant more crops (as you pointed
out, we are feeding the animals waste product from food production), in order to feed all the people we are
now. And we’re not even talking third world.. who don’t exactly have a megamart with five different kinds of
tomato to pick from year round.

It does not make logical sense to demand that everyone not eat meat. The negative impact on diversity, land,
and people would be great.

R E P LY

MALLORIE N AS RALLAH • DECEMBER 24, 2011, 10:44 PM

First of all you have made a mistake, Ovo-Lacto Vegetarians do no eat fish. Perhaps the study you used defines
it differently but either way it is incorrect:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovo-lacto_vegetarianism

Infact conventional vegetarianism is Ovo-lacto, beyond that is Vegan.

While I understand you offhandedly addressed personal preference you did so in a manner that ignored a few
words I would like to share.

I do not eat meat because my subjective experience of eating meat is not worth the value of animal life to me.
Yes this is aesthetic, and on a broad scale unrealistic, meaning I wish to impose it on no one. Because of this I
have no problem helping your lactose intolerant ass move your couch to your new house, or sharing dinner with
those who eat meat, Their subjective experience is different than mine
Apparently their equation for net gain for life lost is different than mine, maybe meat is just that tasty to them.
There is nothing irrational about this, and it does not require I judge them as having devalued animal life, nor
does it require an inflated value of animal life on my part.
I realize this is not an argument to convert people to Vegetarianism, thus requires no counter argument, however
it is a rational and moral lifestyle / dietary preference.

And its certainly more polite than calling people stupid.

R E P LY

S H AK • DECEMBER 25, 2011, 12:33 PM

Richard it seems like you’ve cherry-picked your data a bit. You claim that animals aren’t treated as cruelly as
PETA claims, but that doesn’t mean they don’t suffer more than in the wild. Limiting pig and cattle mobility
surely do cause suffering because larger animals like those do have a preference for more mobility. Chickens
may demonstrate crowding behavior, but that does not show that keeping them crowded for the duration they
are in farms does not cause them suffering. In fact, crowded chickens show a high propensity for cannibalism
and thus have to be de-beaked. De-beaking has shown to cause chronic pain in a significant percentage of
chickens. Even if you concede this point and advocate laws like California Prop 2, it leads to less efficiency.
Less efficiency means more land use, more land degradation, and more deforestation for farms.

Even if it were sustainable to do this; efficiency still costs much more and you are setting up a system in which
corporations make more money breaking laws and torturing animals. Criminal mismanagement DOES happen in
every industry, but in livestock it leads to the torture of animals IN ADDITION to the human costs of sub
standard product quality and working conditions for farm workers. Regulation can’t eliminate mismanagement,
other industries are necessary; whereas eating animals instead of plants isn’t. Also, mismanagement in livestock
industries cause harm in both the process of raising animals and the consequences of sub-standard products.

Your citation of the book “How Bad Are Bananas” doesn’t match up with the article it leads to. I’m assuming
the book itself contains the claim that the greenhouse impacts of a burger and shower are 3 and 2 respectively.
That sounds like accounting chicanery. Given how much heated water is used to process meat, how much water
is used for animals to drink, the energy required to maintain a slaughterhouse, etc. It seems unlikely that the same
factors were considered to reach those two numbers. You also gloss over the fact that Berners-Lee’s conclusion
is that eating less meat and dairy is an effective way to lower your footprint. Either his analysis is accurate and
you are overlooking other factors that make meat inefficient, or his analysis is incorrect and your points about
greenhouse impact are false.

You claim that we have to consider how the water would be used if not for livestock, but ignore how inedible
crop yields could be used for bio-fuels. The point is water used for other things could have a greater benefit (like
generating electricity so we could use less coal).

You’re right that the industry could be made less harmful to the environment, but more efficiency makes animal
conditions worse.

It doesn’t take the consideration of animals as equivalent to humans to be a vegetarian. Thus it is not irrational to
still associate with meat eaters. Stop straw-manning

R E P LY
 C EP H • DECEMBER 26 , 2011, 8:10 AM

It was very disappointing to see this disastrous post on Freethought blogs – it’s almost as if you’re deliberately
trying to drive a wedge between vegetarian humanists and the rest of the atheist community. Some people can’t
stand animal cruelty for very sound philosophical reasons that you don’t bother to mention, and very simply put,
the best way to avoid harming animals is not to eat them.

You seem to deny the fact that animals suffer in factory farms, which an extraordinary thing to say! Perhaps you
should visit a hog factory in Ohio and watch piglets getting their testicles pulled out without anaesthetics, or
watch the sows who are unable to move in any direction chewing miserably on the bars of their ‘gestation’
crates. Animal abuse a is systematic and routine part of factory farming (I’ve worked on a battery egg farm, so I
know) and if you want to apologize for that then that’s your business, but don’t castigate vegetarians for making
the humane decision to abstain from eating animal products.

You don’t even mention slaughterhouses (probably because you don’t know anything about them), and proceed
to project the most bizarrely offensive motives onto vegetarians – whom, you suggest, all regard meat-eaters as
paedophiles?? You say that the welfare of animals is a top priority for agribusiness, when in fact the welfare of
any individual animal makes no difference to the economics of the operation as a whole. They are only
concerned about suffering to the extent that it affects their profits and agribusinesses lobby the govenment every
year to hold back reforms in animal welfare. In fact, every reputable scientist who studies animal health agrees
that factory farming is far from ideal for the well-being of those animals. If everyone, let’s say, replaced two
meals out of ten with a vegetarian alternative then we’d need to produce a fifth less meat, which would
undeniably have an impact. Please do some serious research next time.

R E P LY

GU EST • DEC EMBER 26 , 2011, 8:22 AM

I am a vegetarian. I have been for 15 years now. I stopped eating meat because I learned how meat was
produced (mass production, in europe animals are transported for 30h before killed incl. broken limps and
dehydration along the way)I wouldn’t mind eating meat if..I could afford locally produced free range and I didn’t
have to explain every time I refuse meat (because I don’t know where the meat is coming from) and potentially
offend the chef.So it’s money and lazyness. The market is driven by demand so I am demanding free range or
nothing. If you feel ok with eating mass farmed unethical meat, go for it. I made my choice, you made yours. (I
don’t like proselytizing, I can’t stand militant vegans or vegetarians)

R E P LY

A D A M • D E C E M B E R 2 7, 2 0 1 1 , 1 : 2 2 P M

I’m amazed that someone declaring the “irrationality” of all of his opponents would settle for making broad,
sweeping claims about how factory farming “doesn’t really cause much suffering,” without providing a shred of
evidence. What is the factual basis for this grand declaration? Why are you so convinced that the propaganda of
the meat industry (whose livelihood depends on their public image) is wholly true but the propaganda of animal
welfare activists is false?
You suggest that most of the claims that factory farms are inhumane comes from “gotcha” videos. Do you know
why this is the case? I would say that it has a lot to do with the fact that the meat industry fights tooth and nail to
*prevent* the public from seeing the actual conditions at the plants. They actively fight for laws that would turn
taking a photo of a factory farm from a public road into an act of “ecoterrorism.” In the absence of any public
access to the farms other than staged press events, how is the public able to come to an informed opinion about
whether or not they are inhumane?

If you are serious about people actually being informed on the issue, and I assume you are since you are so
enthusiastic about declaring who is and isn’t “rational,” then you should be advocating for full transparency about
what the conditions of factory farms actually are. And no, mere statistics about “compliance with the law” are
not enough because (even assuming that the inspectors are doing their jobs perfectly and without bias), the laws
are not designed to prevent cruelty; they’re designed to protect human health.

R E P LY

K AR IMGH AN TOUS • JAN UAR Y 4, 201 2, 1 1 :39 P M

“
Wrong on both points, showing an incredible lack of understanding of simple biology. NO, your
intestines don’t get ‘clogged’. Normal peristalsis ensures that what you put in one end, comes
out the other

Do you mean textbook biology or real-world biology? I have seen a few comments on web forums etc. which
assume that the real world follows textbooks. But you are right to object – there isn’t a consensus on some of
these details.

Are you perhaps suggesting that intestinal congestion does not occur, or are you limiting your response to my
comment about milk?

“
It is the biological function of your intestines to absorb nutrients from your food, and
processing the food will not prevent it.

I get the feeling that you are implying that refined foods are just as healthy as unrefined foods; or that processing
conserves all the nutrients in the raw food. In any case I refer you to a physiologist if you want further details.

R E P LY
 E M I L K A R L S S O N • J A N U A R Y 7, 2 0 1 2 , 4 : 5 2 P M

Richard Carrier wrote that:

“
All activity produces greenhouse gases. Just your breathing does. Animals do. The earth by
itself does. The very rocks produce emissions. As well as all the other things we do (from drive
to shower to turning on the lights to manufacturing medical instruments to mining metal, to
what have you). Thus saying “it produces emissions, therefore it’s bad” is retarded. Even
cavemen produced greenhouse gas emissions…before they even invented fire! That’s why a 2%
emission share is insignificant.

There is a lot of food for thought in this blog entry, and I changed my mind about many things. I found it a great
defense of meat eating, and I intend to use these arguments in the future to defend my meat eating.

However, I think it is important to keep in mind that in the absence emission of GHGs from human activities, the
amount of carbon dioxide that gets into the atmosphere balances the amount that is taken out by other natural
processes, such as plants and the oceans. This is simply due to the establishment of a rough equilibrium.

However, when we additional carbon dioxide into the atmosphere from human activities, the concentration
increases(and reaches equilibrium again, but only in a geological time-scale), which is why we are concerned
with an increase if the emission of GHGs.

So we want to focus on net emission, not the total amount (because this does not address the process that
removes carbon dioxide from the atmosphere). It is this net emission that is problematic from the perspective of
climate change.

Compare this with being on a diet. If you take in more than you eat, you cannot say that this will not lead to
weight gain because the net intake is negligible compared with what you take in in total. Clearly, the net intake
will have a large influence of weight gain/loss.

For a reference, please see the critique of the “argument 33” at

skepticalscience(dot)com(slash)argument(dot)php called “Human CO2 is a tiny % of CO2 emissions”.

Now, I do not mean to imply that Dr. Carrier rejects the science of climate change; it is just an unfortunate
formulation of the argument in the comment I cite because he is right in the original argument in the blog entry that
it could very well be replaced by production and use of fertilizers that contribute equally or more to GHGs
emissions from the burning of fossil fuels. So Dr. Carrier is right in this version of the argument. The error is in the
problematic comparison between man-made and natural emissions.

Dr. Carrier is also right in the comparison of the relative low emissions of GHGs from the meat industry
compared with other industries such as coal burning and transport. Here he is correctly comparing apples to
apples.

Maybe I am misrepresenting Dr. Carrier’s position here. Perhaps the emphasis is only on the fact that it
constitutes a small percentage of human emission of GHGs, therefore not a significant contribution to the
problem. This, I think, is reasonable correct.

It is unfortunate that Dr. Carrier made the invalid comparison between human and non-human emissions of
GHGs in the comment i quote above.

R E P LY

T Y R A N T O F SK EP SI S • JAN UAR Y 8 , 201 2, 2:23 P M

I have trouble finding words adequate for this post. Rather than buying the silly comparison of vegetarianism to
evangelical religion, yet again I take something else away from it, namely that meat eaters invariably tend to
display an unthinking defense mechanism for their behaviors that is much more akin to religions apologetics than
vegetarianism, as the OP casually claims. Red herrings, sloppy accusations, straw men, carefully keeping the
own level of discourse just shallow enough to comfortably justify ones own behavior, while throwing many
values under the bus that I consider imperative. Laughing at compassion for other animals? Splendid. The
chauvinist distinction between us and other animals which is celebrated in this text is so 19th century, so
unworthy of a modern ethical discussion of animal and human rights, that it leaves me dumbfounded. It harkens
back to darker days, as it has been written before many times to justify cruelty of another sort.

R E P LY

A SP I D O SC ELI S • JAN UAR Y 1 3, 201 2, 3:39 AM

Hm. Having just now come across this post (after reading some of your more recent posts and thinking well of
them), I think this is something I’ll have to think about and revisit later.

However, for the moment, a couple of brief comments.

“And almost all of that is rain water (over 87%) which falls naturally and would have been wasted anyway were
it not put to some use”

That’s just the old Bureau of Reclamation line. “If we ain’t using it forpeople, it’s being wasted.” I’m not sure
even BuRec advocates that view any more and, more to the point, if you’re hoping to convince
environmentalists–they aren’t going to buy it. The alternative to rainfall watering a crop (some or all of which will
be used to feed livestock) isn’t “waste”, it’s a natural ecosystem that we value.

Also, as an enviro-type in the western U.S., over-grazing for me is the great big hulking issue with livestock, and
one you’ve ignored completely. Grazing on lands in the western U.S. isn’t a big deal in terms of meat production
(it just isn’t very efficient), but it is a huge component of destructive land use by the livestock industry in the U.S.
Personally, on the environmental front I’m not much concerned by cattle raised mostly on corn byproducts from
Iowa (in part because, admittedly, I consider Iowa a lost cause)… but grazing in the west is a whole different
ballgame. FWIW, I do eat meat, but not a whole lot of it compared to the average American; however, if it
came with handy labels indicating such, I’d avoid anything from western grazing entirely (with, I suppose, rare
exceptions for people like Ted Turner who, despite being an obnoxious wealthy SOB from Back East, does
quite a good job of not screwing over the lands he owns).
R E P LY

LIZ • MARCH 19 , 2012, 1:09 AM

It is interesting that you seemingly claim animals have very little awareness of anything around them (or their own
interior states) when many animals (especially other mammals) have nervous systems that are remarkably similar
to ours and are even used by scientists in biopsychology experiments concerning phenomena such as memory,
learning, emotional attachments and so on.

If you are going to make such statements about awareness, please base them in a sound interpretation of
comparative neurobiology, psychology, evolutionary/genetic relationships and so forth. Do not clump other
animals in a group that is somehow distinct from our species yet includes every animal from sponges and coral to
chimpanzees and pigs – this is remarkably reminiscent of the religious view that a higher power created humans
as entirely distinct and unique beings.

As for it being wrong to torture animals – what constitutes torture? Cutting an animal’s testicles/tail off without
painkillers? Placing animals in crowded trucks and taking them on long journeys, including on hot summer days?
Taking them into a slaughterhouse where they can often see other members of their species being killed or smell
their blood? Selectively breeding them so they become so heavy so quickly their legs are buckling underneath
them and contorting by the time they are considered ready for slaughter? Taking a calf which is a few days old
away from its mother, who is psychologically and hormonally primed to care for her young and to look for her
missing calf?

These things are routine and legal. Do we really have a moral justification for eating animal products if they are
not necessary?

R E P LY

RICH ARD CARRIER • MARCH 20, 2012, 12:50 PM

Liz: It is interesting that you seemingly claim animals have very little awareness of
anything around them (or their own interior states)

Since I never said that, it’s not interesting at all.

What I did say was far more nuanced and particular, and even agrees with all the science and
distinctions you referred to. Which is interesting.

I can only conclude you didn’t actually read my post and just posted a kneejerk comment
from a casual skim.

As for it being wrong to torture animals – what constitutes torture? Cutting an

animal’s testicles/tail off without painkillers?

People have cut human foreskins off without painkillers. Minor surgeries like that at infancy
are not torture, just uncomfortable. Nevertheless, I believe anesthetic should be used in all
surgical procedures, including castration, simply because otherwise you are causing
unnecessary pain, and there is no good reason to do that. This is an example of how the
problem is solved by solving it, not by abandoning meat consumption (which will not prevent
a single castration, and thus is a useless gesture).

Placing animals in crowded trucks and taking them on long journeys, including on hot
summer days?

We do that to people. It’s not considered torture anywhere on earth that I know. Apart from
in a trivial way (“this commute is torture!”).

In fact, it is contrary to industry interests to overstress animals with heat or excess proximity,
so they take measures to ensure the animals are reasonably comfortable by the animal’s
own standards of natural living. (Westerners are overly pampered when it comes to amenities
like air conditioning; most humans on earth do without them.)

Taking them into a slaughterhouse where they can often see other members of their
species being killed or smell their blood?

Since they don’t know what “killing” is or what “blood” is, no, this is not even stressing for
them, much less torture.

Selectively breeding them so they become so heavy so quickly their legs are buckling
underneath them and contorting by the time they are considered ready for slaughter?

This is nonsense. You are obviously buying into propaganda. It is contrary to industry
interests to have deformed cows, likewise cows that (from chronic pain) are at risk of loss
from stress or violence.

Taking a calf which is a few days old away from its mother, who is psychologically and
hormonally primed to care for her young and to look for her missing calf?

We do this to cats and dogs, routinely. Human mothers do it all the time (it’s called
adoption). And nature does it to a very high frequency (e.g. nature will kill on average half or
more of a cow’s calves within a year of birth; it is only human intervention and medicine and
care that prevents this). Nevertheless, studies show [w.g. AABS 70.4 and AABS 110.1]
that calves removed immediately are not as much noticed by the mother (who only intensifies
searching behavior after socializing with her young; in effect, cows aren’t sure they have
calves until they interact with them). Moreover, no study shows any of this rises to the level of
pain, anguish, or torture for the mother, at any stage of removal. Indeed, the purpose of
removal is to improve the life and welfare of the calf (who, along with their mother, is more
prone to fatal or debilitating disease when left with its mother, and who is more prone to
injury if milking processes are practiced with the calf present or having to be corralled each
time); it is not, as one might think, to save the milk, since the calves have to be fed milk
anyway (so there is zero net gain from removal).

These things are routine and legal. Do we really have a moral justification for eating
animal products if they are not necessary?

What about fruit picked by migrant workers for minimum wage? Eating store-bought fruit is
not necessary. Yet the lives of migrant workers are difficult. So is eating fruit immoral? (And
thus we should take away the income of migrant workers?) It is illogical to assume that
 anything consumed must be completely free of all possible pain in its production. Nothing
could ever be produced on that standard, since all labor entails some measure of human pain,
discomfort, and loss (e.g. muscle fatigue and occupational injuries; parents who work spend
whole days away from their kids; kids who go to school spend whole days away from their
parents). The goal cannot be the elimination of all of this, but the economically feasible
reduction of it to tolerable levels. We ought to treat animals likewise. Thus I support efforts to
improve animal welfare. But I don’t support unreasonable or irrational efforts to do so. And
when we compare how animals would fare in the wild, with how they fare in human industry,
there is no contest for which set of animals is better off in terms of health, welfare, and stress.

R E P LY

JO ET A I T • JUN E 1 3, 201 2, 1 1 :51 AM

“
Every diet has pros and cons, the net effect of which is zero, when any healthy diet is compared

The diet of the average American compared to the average French person.
LOL – point disproven

R E P LY

B O B W A H L E R • J U LY 2 6 , 2 0 1 2 , 1 2 : 4 6 P M

“Again, an animal’s life is indifferent to when it dies, because it does not become anything and has no awareness
of being something.”

You need to take down this post, Richard. That’s despicable arrogance. Have you never looked a dying animal
in the eye? It want’s to live, just like we do. You have no soul, that’s your problem. You’ve shown me here that
I’m wasting my time telling you about the spiritual path.

R E P LY

R I C H A R D C A R R I E R • J U LY 2 7, 2 0 1 2 , 4 : 2 6 P M

No one has souls. Souls are an ancient superstition with no basis in fact. There are only
minds, which are generated by brains.

And animal brains (with the exception of certain ones we don’t eat, like apes, etc., as I
explain in the article) do not have the physical computational architecture we know is
required to “know” what the sentence “I want to live” even means. They do not even have
the capacity to comprehend any of those words: what “I” means or “want” means or “live”
means. Animals do not construct self-identities like we do. They do not possess
metacognition (they do not think about what they want, they just have desires). And they do
not know what “life” is (they just experience it).

All such animals have the desire to avoid pain and escape distress. But they have no
conception of death. And they cannot have a desire to avoid what they do not even know
exists.

R E P LY

J A S O N T O R P Y • J U LY 2 7, 2 0 1 2 , 1 0 : 0 6 P M

Funny. Bob Wahler is off the deep end with the soul and spirituality talk. Richard is still
unable to give weight to the mutually-agreed upon fact that animals do suffer.

In my longer response to the article (above), I boiled the whole thing down to:
premise 1: Eating meat and meat products is not so bad,
premise 2: Doing other things is just as bad.

This idea that animals can’t grasp death is just a subset of premise 1. It could be worse, but
that’s no justification to torture and kill animals for human convenience and (macabre)
enjoyment.
Mitigating circumstances are not justifications.

R E P LY

R I C H A R D C A R R I E R • J U LY 3 0 , 2 0 1 2 , 1 1 : 0 6 A M

False equivalence. Killing an animal is not torturing them.

A valid question to ask is whether our food industry tortures animals. I

found no evidence of that normally being the case. We could have a
system that did, but then the solution would be to humanize the system (as
we have done, and continue to do), not abolish it.

It’s just the same as with government: the solution to bad government is
better government, not the abolition of government. Likewise animal
husbandry.

Moreover, as I also explain in the original article, refusing to eat meat is

literally the least effective thing you could ever do to abolish the system
(apart from literally doing nothing at all, like praying). If you really
believed animals were being tortured for pleasure by the millions every
day, you should be bombing butcher shops and assassinating agro-
company executives. You should be at war, as you would be if these
were people being tortured for pleasure. Unless, of course, you’re a total
Quaker and would collaborate even with the Nazi holocaust for fear of
causing harm even to the murderers. But that only exposes the absurdity
of pacifism as an unlivable social ideal. It is inherently self-defeating.

The question then is why vegans “come to laugh at our dinner parties,
have sex with us, and help us move.” Why they chum around with us
(who must be to them) Nazis. It’s really inexplicable. Must we conclude
moral veganism is just an ego-pump for sustaining a pleasurable feeling of
self-righteousness and not really an honest conviction? Or that it is just an
aesthetic choice and not in fact a moral one at all? What other
explanations for its self-contradictory behaviors is there?

It does no good to claim it’s a difference of degree, since if “torturing

animals for pleasure” is immoral enough to compel you to abstain from
eating all meat and dairy, it clearly is not trivial–you have to believe eating
meat and dairy is a serious moral failure (and not comparable to driving a
little over the speed limit or exploiting a tax loophole), yet that is not how
you treat the people who do eat meat and dairy. If they are seriously
morally defective, it would make no sense whatsoever to make friends of
them; whereas if they are not seriously morally defective, it makes little
sense to punish yourself by abstaining from meat and dairy, for something
that isn’t really all that bad.

And if abstaining from meat and dairy is not punishment to you but
something you actually like and prefer, then this is all just aesthetics, which
cannot be recommended to anyone else for whom abstaining from meat
and dairy would be punishment. And of course, if it’s all just aesthetics,
then talk of “torture” being your motivation is just bullshit. As I’m sure
you’d agree.

I suspect the reality is that vegans have delusional beliefs about animals
that cause them to feel “oogy” about killing and eating them (or even
treating them in certain ways, which would be intolerable to humans but
are not so, or much less so, to animals), and this displeasurable feeling
causes them to avoid the source of their displeasure. But that’s aesthetics,
not morality (since this displeasure is not universal and its being universal
would serve no social function). It’s also a mild form of insanity, since it
depends on holding a strong belief out of all proportion to the evidence
and in denial of all counter-evidence.

None of this means there are not objectively true beliefs about the
wrongness animal torture, or that there is not a valid moral (and not
merely aesthetic) displeasure at it. It’s just that American animal
husbandry generally does not produce that kind of harm. Nor does any
system of animal husbandry have to produce any. Thus even when there is
a problem, the problem is not with consuming meat, it’s with producing it.
So fix the production end. Problem solved.

R E P LY
 R O L L I N I A D E L I C I O S A • J U LY 3 0 , 2 0 1 2 , 1 : 0 4 P M

@Richard

“A valid question to ask is whether our food industry tortures animals. I found no evidence of that normally being
the case.”

Nice qualifier. You have, however, found and provided evidence that it occurs with some regularity. It doesn’t
disappear because you sweep it under the “outlier” rug.

“It’s just the same as with government: the solution to bad government is better government, not the abolition of
government. Likewise animal husbandry.”

Surely you’ve been paying attention to global events. The solution to dictatorial governments that torture and kill
(not all the time, just every so often) is the abolition of such regimes, and the rise of completely different
governmental systems.

“Moreover, as I also explain in the original article, refusing to eat meat is literally the least effective thing you
could ever do to abolish the system (apart from literally doing nothing at all, like praying).”

When did you turn your back on Bayesianism and game theory? What happens to the probability of abuse
events when the number of potential consumers is reduced by millions?

“If you really believed animals were being tortured for pleasure by the millions every day, you should be
bombing butcher shops and assassinating agro-company executives.”

1. Priorities. Locations with the most egregious violations are bombed. Activists engaged in such actions are
considered terrorists for such property destruction.
2. Assassination, really? Hasn’t the ethics of this issue been settled for quite a while? Perhaps you think the
murder of doctors who perform abortions are “logical” actions for all “pro-lifers”.

“Unless, of course, you’re a total Quaker and would collaborate even with the Nazi holocaust…”

Howdy, Godwin.

“The question then is why vegans ‘come to laugh at our dinner parties, have sex with us, and help us move.'”

Vegans prefer the company of vegans, and of course, would prefer that everyone were vegan. Do you have any
Christian friends?

Last time I checked, there was a distinction between willful moral infraction and moral ignorance, as well as the
responses to each.

“And if abstaining from meat and dairy is not punishment to you but something you actually like and prefer, then
this is all just aesthetics…”

Yeah, you’re right, a person can’t prefer something that’s also morally correct.

“It’s just that American animal husbandry generally does not produce that kind of harm. Nor does any system of
animal husbandry have to produce any.”
1. Another qualifier, used in the same way. Peculiar.
2. Evidence? The only evidence provided thus far shows that if a husbandry industry exists, intolerable abuse
exists within it. You’ve given up on facts about the real world.

R E P LY

R I C H A R D C A R R I E R • J U LY 3 0 , 2 0 1 2 , 5 : 1 9 P M

RolliniaDeliciosa:

“
Nice qualifier. You have, however, found and provided evidence that it occurs
with some regularity. It doesn’t disappear because you sweep it under the
“outlier” rug.

Notice I didn’t sweep it under any rug, but specifically called it out as something we should
all fight. So, nice try attempting to change what I said.

By the same token, the fact that there are abuses in the agriculture industry (including slavery
and torture), entails we should abstain from eating vegetables, too.

Or should we instead act like sane people and make and enforce laws to police such abuses,
thus greatly reducing their occurrence?

Sane? Crazy? Sane? Crazy? Which behavior should we engage in?

Your call.

[Carrier:] “It’s just the same as with government: the solution to bad

“
government is better government, not the abolition of government. Likewise
animal husbandry.”

[RolliniaDeliciosa:] Surely you’ve been paying attention to global events. The

solution to dictatorial governments that torture and kill (not all the time, just
every so often) is the abolition of such regimes, and the rise of completely
different governmental systems.

OMG. This is the fucking funniest rebuttal I’ve ever read.

You just said what I said, and actually think you contradicted me.

“
[Carrier:] “Moreover, as I also explain in the original article, refusing to eat
meat is literally the least effective thing you could ever do to abolish the
system (apart from literally doing nothing at all, like praying).”

[RolliniaDeliciosa:] When did you turn your back on Bayesianism and game
theory? What happens to the probability of abuse events when the number of
potential consumers is reduced by millions?

Nothing of any statistical note.

Apparently your idea of winning WWII would be to not buy German products, in the hope
that the Germans, with slightly less income, could only kill a few million Jews instead of all of
them.

Right. Because that works.

Not.

“
Locations with the most egregious violations are bombed. Activists engaged
in such actions are considered terrorists for such property destruction.

It’s unclear to me whether you are saying you endorse and/or do or would fund their efforts.
That’s the question. Are you going to act on the strength of your convictions, or just act like a
self-righteous hipster dufus?

The reason this matters is because acting on those convictions is so obviously insane (and if
acted upon, unconscionably immoral–in precisely the way eating animals is not). Thus your
belief system, which entails acting on those convictions, is necessarily just as insane (and if
acted upon, would be just as unconscionably immoral).

Cognitive dissonance thus has you locked in its vice. Either we are Nazi Germany
collaborating in the holocaust. Or eating meat is not all that evil. You know the first
proposition is ridiculous, but can’t bring yourself to affirm its alternative. Such is the folly of a
delusion.

“
 “
Perhaps you think the murder of doctors who perform abortions are
“logical” actions for all “pro-lifers”.

It is as logical as killing Nazis in WWII. The problem is that being logical is not sufficient.
Your beliefs also have to be true. And since the premise (abortion is murder) is false, killing
to stop it is simply insane. It is, in actual fact, grossly immoral. It would only really be moral if
the premise were demonstrably true. And the fact that there is no evidence of it being so, is
precisely why religion is so dangerous: anyone who actually acts on their convictions, will do
horrible things in the service of a delusion.

“
Vegans prefer the company of vegans, and of course, would prefer that
everyone were vegan. Do you have any Christian friends?

Yes. But not ones that do grossly immoral things (like kill abortion doctors or torture Jews–
or who actually torture animals, for that matter). You are the one likening me to a mass
murderer, torturing animals for fun. Or else you have no rational basis for your moral self-
righteousness in this matter. You are either just pretending an aesthetic choice is a gravely
moral one, or you are a happy collaborator with the modern equivalent of the SS.

Pick a lane. Or be irrational. Your choice.

“
Last time I checked, there was a distinction between willful moral infraction
and moral ignorance, as well as the responses to each.

How can we be morally ignorant, when we know all the facts? Are you saying you would
buddy up to Nazis and abortion clinic bombers, because they are merely “morally ignorant”
in thinking abortion is murder and Jews are vermin?

The only evidence provided thus far shows that if a husbandry industry exists, intolerable
abuse exists within it. You’ve given up on facts about the real world.

I have presented (and found) no evidence of “intolerable abuses” in our food industry. If you
mean occasional abuses, criminal and extraordinary, those are no different from society
having criminals who rob and kill, and cars that sometimes accidentally crash and kill people.
We do not shut down the streets because some criminals occasionally use them or cars
occasionally malfunction. No, we police the criminals, and the car manufacturing industry. As
in society, so in animal husbandry and auto manufacturing.

By exactly the same token, there are “intolerable abuses” in the fruit picking and agricultural
industries, but they are not typical but criminal or extraordinary outliers that we do all within
our power to police. Again, if you think occasional abuses like that mean we should not
patronize the whole industry at all, then you should be abstaining from buying fruit and
vegetables as well.

But you won’t. Because your belief system is irrational, and you are too deluded ever to
admit it.

BTW, I thank you for demonstrating how irrational vegans can be. This intolerable abuse of
logic you repeatedly engage in, and your indefensibly self-contradictory attitudes and
behavior, are really just proving my point.

R E P LY

S C _ 8 E 9 4 3 74 B 3 D 8 8 5 1 3 74 9 6 0 E C 6 2 3 1 2 F 0 C B 2 •

J U LY 3 1 , 2 0 1 2 , 7 : 2 4 A M

Richard, I’m still getting updates on this in my email (by choice), but your
views on this are so … It’s tempting to use vulgarities in frustration at all
your absurd assertions. Your reasoning appears entirely self serving with
little objectivity. Yet you deny in veg*ns the tiniest self serving rationality
of not becoming terrorists. Just because I live among meat eaters doesn’t
mean I don’t hate it and fantasize about suicide bombing a big meat joint,
but I have kids who need their dad alive and out of jail, and I prefer it that
way too.

The will to live seems to me like it would be a privative development, and

animal behaviors suggest it is widely shared. Animals should not need
human cognition to feel a self preservation interest. But I know how
heartless meat eaters can be, so I prefer to argue against meat more from
a humanist perspective.

I’ll not a vegan, but I quit eating meat in January 1993 because I
recognized as an environmental studies student in college that meat
production was too costly on the environment to be sustainable. My
concerns were echoed in a 2006 paper published by the FAO
(_Livestock’s Long Shadow), and the Worldwatch Institute later claimed
they underestimated livestock greenhouse gas contributions which were
better figured at 51% of the human contribution.

I don’t know how someone can have a reasonable understanding of the

related scientific fields and not think meat farming is a big problem. It
seems to me it’s because meat provides concentrated fuel and nutrients,
and reason evolved to make that happen. Now I propose that our survival
threats have somewhat changed from what influenced our ancestors, and
 we need to evolve intelligently with scientific foresight instead of letting the
stomache control the brain as you seem to be doing.

R E P LY

R I C H A R D C A R R I E R • J U LY 3 1 , 2 0 1 2 , 5 : 5 3 P M

All of which was refuted in my article above.

Once again, vegans can’t even listen to an argument. They just repeat the same fallacies and
falsehoods, as if they had never been refuted.

Oh well.

R E P LY

S C _ 8 E 9 4 3 74 B 3 D 8 8 5 1 3 74 9 6 0 E C 6 2 3 1 2 F 0 C B 2 • A U G U S T 1 , 2 0 1 2 ,

6 :01 AM

Richard,

Your article is nonsense as I already addressed with numbered points on December 15,
2011, at 4:42 pm, but you had no comment.

Also, you look like a hypocritical idiot for accusing me of being another non-listening vegan
when I explicitly said in the comment you replied to, “I’m not a vegan…”

I did not quit eating meat because of vegan propaganda but because I was an Environmental
Studies B.S. student at SUNY Buffalo and understood the science myself.Predictably the
meat industry has paid scientists generating their own propaganda that meat lovers can cite to
“refute” studies published by the FAO or the Worldwatch Institute, but that is politics and
wishful thinking more than science.

R E P LY

R O L L I N I A D E L I C I O S A • J U LY 3 0 , 2 0 1 2 , 7 : 1 2 P M

Richard:

Well then, I guess I’ll keep demonstrating for you.

“By the same token, the fact that there are abuses in the agriculture industry (including slavery and torture),
entails we should abstain from eating vegetables, too.”

Only if you think humans don’t require food to live.

“Or should we instead act like sane people and make and enforce laws to police such abuses, thus greatly
reducing their occurrence?”

We do. You’ll likely notice a disproportionate number of vegetarians among fair-trade and human rights
activists.

“You just said what I said, and actually think you contradicted me.”

No, I know I contradicted you. The offending system is abolished, and replaced by one that doesn’t allow for
the previous abuses, fundamentally.

“Cognitive dissonance thus has you locked in its vice. Either we are Nazi Germany collaborating in the
holocaust. Or eating meat is not all that evil. You know the first proposition is ridiculous, but can’t bring yourself
to affirm its alternative. Such is the folly of a delusion.”

… Or, you’re not as opposed to false equivalences as you pretend. Meat-eating is a part of a system that can,
in some ways, be called evil. 1930s German citizens may have been a “part of the problem”, but you seem to
think that they all should have been killed at Nuremberg. Not such a “sane” conclusion.

“And since the premise (abortion is murder) is false, killing to stop it is simply insane. It is, in actual fact, grossly
immoral. It would only really be moral if the premise were demonstrably true.”

Even if the premise were true, legal and philosophical opinion would be against your claim that premeditated
murder would be moral. If you think someone has killed in the past, and believe they will in the future, from what
I understand, you have a moral obligation to notify law enforcement, and would be acting immorally if you shot
them at the grocery store.

“You are the one likening me to a mass murderer, torturing animals for fun.”

I never did that.

“Again, if you think occasional abuses like that mean we should not patronize the whole industry at all, then you
should be abstaining from buying fruit and vegetables as well.

But you won’t. Because your belief system is irrational, and you are too deluded ever to admit it.”

What ever happened to feasible solutions? Until everyone is growing all their own food, we all rely on farm
workers. For some “crazy” reason, people find that keeping a vegetarian diet is a more practical action. And
again, as they have eliminated their contribution to livestock suffering, they are focused on improving plant
agriculture as well.

Your incessant demand that vegetarians should want to kill you is not sane or logical, but you are too deluded to
admit it.

R E P LY

R I C H A R D C A R R I E R • J U LY 3 1 , 2 0 1 2 , 5 : 4 2 P M

Nothing in your reply validly rebuts me on any point. Obviously you are the one too far gone
 in your delusional bubble even to know how to rationally engage what I said.

R E P LY

H E A T H E R D A L G L E I S H • J U LY 3 0 , 2 0 1 2 , 9 : 1 2 P M

I have to be brief – but straight off the bat – you make a classic ‘Tu Quoque’ ad hominem fallacy, which goes:
“You argue proposition A, but you do not behave consistently with A – therefore, A is invalid.”

The merit of the argument doesn’t depend on the non-hypocrisy of the person making it.

And as to activism – how do you feel about starving kids orphaned by AIDS in Africa? And what are you doing
about it?

How do you feel about street kids in South America who sleep rough, sniff glue, prostitute themselves, get
frequently raped and assaulted, and never know a proper education? And what have you been doing about it?

How do you feel about slavery?

Hold that opinion while you at least try to comprehend that it was not only once mundanely acceptable – but
men actually waged civil war, determined to continue the practice. They thought the economy depended on it.
They thought it was inevitable. They thought, as Thomas Huxley said, that: “No rational man, cognizant of the
facts, believes the negro is the equal of the white man.” No rational man. Strong words…

Now, if you lived in a culture where slavery was banal, and involved >90% of the population, and you were an
abolitionist – do you sincerely believe that you would find yourself confronting every slaveowner you met,
shunning all your slaveowning family and friends, and dedicating your life to the treacherous work of freeing
slaves?

I congratulate you if you do think you would – and also add that you would have gone one better than Abe
Lincoln himself – who simply watched the proceedings of slave markets with passive disgust, and didn’t
intervene…

I think you’ll find that it’s not just vegetarians who fall into passivity and comfortable mediocrity, when it comes
to their opinions on ethics and what is wrong in the world.

R E P LY

R I C H A R D C A R R I E R • J U LY 3 1 , 2 0 1 2 , 5 : 5 0 P M

I do not use a tu quoque fallacy, because the conclusion you are referring to is not based on
that premise. I only state that premise as evidence that vegans are irrational. That they are
wrong I proved in the main article, with very different arguments.

By contrast, none of your examples (but one) are even relevant. That’s more what a fallacy
looks like. There is nothing I can abstain from doing that will help any of those situations
improve. Thus, they are neither analogous to eating meat, nor even to the irrational defenses
 of veganism here being given.

As to your one relevant hypothetical: yes, I would be taking up arms against a slaveholding
society if I found myself in one. As many people did. And if for any reason I could not, I
would certainly not be making friends of slaveholders, attending their parties, having sex with
them, or helping them move. And if for some reason I were compelled to (and now we are
really talking about extremely contrived and bizarre scenarios not at all comparable to a
Western democracy), it would still be loathsome. And probably, ultimately, intolerable.
Hence the taking up arms.

But thanks for confirming that vegans think the rest of us are as morally reprehensible as
slaveholders and mass murderers. I so often meet with denials of it, I am glad to have many
proofs of it.

R E P LY

J A S O N T O R P Y • J U LY 3 1 , 2 0 1 2 , 2 : 0 3 P M

“A valid question to ask is whether our food industry tortures animals. I found no evidence of that normally being
the case.”
This sounds like “There are no transitional fossils.” You’re simply not paying attention.
“The National Pork Producers Council, for example, worries that if chickens are given the right to more space in
their cages, then so too will pigs. “So our animals can’t turn around for the 2.5 years that they are in the stalls
producing piglets,” said Dave Warner, a spokesman for NPPC. “I don’t know who asked the sow if she
wanted to turn around…. The only real measure of their well-being we have is the number of piglets per birth,
and that’s at an all-time high.””
citation: “http://influencealley.nationaljournal.com/2012/07/why-an-egg-amendment-in-farm-b.php”

The above quote, among many others, show an obvious disregard for animal welfare. “Who asked the sow” is a
nonsense question. Look at the sow in the cage and you will see suffering. Even the chickens are evolved enough
to appreciate the pain they feel in tiny wire cages (sometimes on faltbed trucks on the interstate).

“If you really believed animals were being tortured for pleasure by the millions every day, you should be
bombing butcher shops and assassinating agro-company executives.”
That would just have me dead or in jail instantly, creating no change in the system. Changing minds is the hardest
form of warfare.
In Paradise Lost, Satan justifies his ongoing guerrilla warfare against heaven by saying, “Who overcomes by
force, hath overcome but half his foe.”

“I suspect the reality is that vegans have delusional beliefs about animals that cause them to feel “oogy” about
killing and eating them”
Your attempts to reduce the argument to aesthetics are rhetoric and not rational argument. I don’t feel a bit
“oogy” about eating a steak. I feel “sad” because the poor cow was killed and butchered. There’s also the
argument from health and the environment. But your ‘not so bad’ and ‘other things are worse’ argument address
your personal justification for doing it anyway.

The problem here is that you so easily shrug off killing animals and so easily turn a blind eye to slaughterhouses.
Let’s say all animal products are culled from wild herds a gentle sleeping poison. Gentle, almost natural death
after a shortened but generally full and free life. Now let’s look at reality and understand that there is in fact
suffering and violent death as well as industrial waste inherent in modern animal food production. Maybe you
would have a better argument advocating for meat industry reform than trying to argue it doesn’t need reform. I
still see the easiest and most effective reform to be shutting down the industry altogether.

R E P LY

R I C H A R D C A R R I E R • J U LY 3 1 , 2 0 1 2 , 6 : 1 1 P M

This is a very good example of my point:

The solution to gestation crates for sows is to get rid of them. And that is what we are
doing (already done in California and numerous other states, and in the UK and EU;
MacDonald’s is phasing them out across the board; etc.).

Instead, you irrationally leap all the way to “never eat pigs” (even, apparently, California pigs
who aren’t raised in gestation crates).

“
I don’t feel a bit “oogy” about eating a steak. I feel “sad” because the poor
cow was killed and butchered.

That’s precisely what I meant when I said “oogy.” You have an irrationally extreme reaction
to the event, derived from false beliefs about what cows experienced, and false beliefs about
a cow dying being “sad.” You get oogy. So you do not enjoy the experience. Aesthetics. If
those beliefs weren’t false, then you’d be talking about morality.

R E P LY

JAS ON TOR P Y • AUGUS T 2, 201 2, 1 1 :02 P M

I’m glad we’re in agreement that there are terrible things going on in the meat industry. I hope
you’ll avoid denying that fact in the future.

A desire to avoid associating with such suffering is no ‘oogy’ reaction. Your condescending
tone is punditry rather than argumentation. Is it ‘oogy’ to look at a human child missing an
arm or to see obese children being fed fast food by their parents? Certainly the feeling is bad,
but that feeling is entirely justified by the ethical failures we see in the world. Bad feelings are
a para-rational response to suffering and the reduced well-being of living things. Opting out of
an inherently cruel activity like the meat industry is an equally rational response. Even if you
deny that the meat industry is inherently cruel, you should recognize that it is cruel in current
practice.
Then you may return to the ‘it’s not so bad’ and ‘other things are worse’ conclusions of your
original post.

R E P LY

R IC H AR D C AR R IER • AUGUS T 3, 2012, 1:34 P M

“
Is it ‘oogy’ to look at a human child missing an arm or to see obese children
being fed fast food by their parents? Certainly the feeling is bad, but that
feeling is entirely justified by the ethical failures we see in the world.

This is a nice example of your irrationality. Neither armless children nor fast food have
anything to do with whether eating meat as such is in any way bad.

The solution to children receiving too much of a bad diet is to promote their eating a better
diet. That does not entail that “a better diet” will be vegetarian. There are reasons in fact why
we should conclude it does not (as I explained in my article).

I don’t know what relevance you imagined an armless child has to eating meat, but even
supposing you are imagining some sort of immorality behind a child missing an arm, that
suggests you are narrow mindedly assuming that only immoral actions can result in a child
losing an arm. Medically necessary amputation and genetic mutation are evidently not in your
worldview.

“
Bad feelings are a para-rational response to suffering and the reduced well-
being of living things.

That is a fallacy. Abortion and surgery can also evoke bad feelings (fetuses look just like little
babies; and cutting into someone’s chest is horrific) yet that in no way corresponds to a valid
moral objection to either.

If you are relying on emotion and not evaluating whether those emotions are validly generated
or even relevant to the moral content of the issue, then you are acting irrationally. Emotions
are often wrong; and even when correct, do not always entail moral conclusions.
 “
Opting out of an inherently cruel activity like the meat industry is an equally
rational response. Even if you deny that the meat industry is inherently cruel,
you should recognize that it is cruel in current practice.

I have repeatedly denied, and demonstrated, that it is not any more cruel than human
agricultural work, and therefore no more a reason to abstain from eating its product than
theirs.

Even where minor cruelties persist, the solution is their elimination, which only meat eaters
can accomplish, as vegetarians have renounced their vote and can no longer influence the
market (as I’ve explained elsewhere in this thread).

R E P LY

JAS ON TOR P Y • AUGUS T 6 , 201 2, 7:52 AM

You seem to have missed entirely the point of my response.

I agree with you that feelings are not rational arguments.
I am debunking your implication that bad feelings invalidate rational arguments. That I am sad
and angry at a lost arm or a fast-food-obese child correlates to my feelings about the many
animals maimed or made obese for food. It degrades their quality of life and by extension
degrades our humanity.

You say, “Even where minor cruelties persist, the solution is their elimination, which only meat
eaters can accomplish”

Absolutely. Only meat eaters can stop eating meat. You claim that the meat industry is no
more cruel than plant-based agriculture. Even if we accept your claims about current
practice, your argument still fails. Your failure in this respect is that the meat industry is
inherently cruel, and the improvements can only go to a certain extent. Animals are still being
bred for captivity and slaughter. Furthermore, we can live without meat but we cannot live
without plants.

Given the same dietary needs and the same labor force, plant-based agriculture offers a more
sustainable and more ethical end-state. Given the same time, money, and brain-power to
improve the efficiency and ethics of our food supply, we should end the meat industry and
focus on the plant-based food industry.

R E P LY
 R IC H AR D C AR R IER • AUGUS T 6 , 2012, 6 :05 P M

“
I am debunking your implication that bad feelings invalidate rational
arguments.

Since that’s not what I argued, you would be debunking a straw man.

“
Your failure in this respect is that the meat industry is inherently cruel

No it isn’t. And constantly repeating a claim does not make it true.

“
And the improvements can only go to a certain extent.

Ditto the agro industry.

“
Animals are still being bred for captivity and slaughter.

Neither of which is an evil. If captivity is evil, then keeping pets is immoral. And since death
ends all pain and misery, “slaughter” in and of itself does animals no harm whatever. Death is
only a loss to those who comprehend the value of life (or who one day will): only for them is
life something of value in itself. Animals don’t appreciate or comprehend life. They just “are.”
Adding a year to an animal’s life adds nothing of worth to the world (apart from what it may
add to the animal’s keeper, hence pets).

“
Furthermore, we can live without meat but we cannot live without plants.
 “
Furthermore, we can live without meat but we cannot live without plants.

Actually, we could. We could manufacture all our food any number of ways, it would just be
more expensive, and reiterate the problems of the hardships caused the workers. Thus, there
is no escaping “hardships caused the workers,” whether those workers be people or animals.
Therefore the mere existence of hardships is no argument against abstaining from an industry.
Were it such, then we should abstain from all industries whatever, and each of us arrange to
produce our own food and manufactures. In other words, we should live like cave men.
Which is silly.

“
Given the same dietary needs and the same labor force, plant-based
agriculture offers a more sustainable and more ethical end-state.

Neither is true. That was the point of my original article.

So now we’ve gone full circle into repeating dogmas and mantras, as if no argument had
taken place anywhere in between.

Nice.

R E P LY

D EN • JUN E 3, 201 8 , 1 :42 AM

“Death is only a loss to those who comprehend the value of life (or who
one day will)”

Can someone painlessly kill a person who is sleeping since he cannot fear
or be aware of the loss?

Should we use this criteria to define from which age babies will have the
right to life?

R E P LY

RICHARD CARRIER • JUN E 3,

2018, 6 :56 PM
 You quoted the answer. “Or who one day will.”
Sleeping people wake up. And babies grow up. Even
the comatose maintain a nonzero probability of
someday responding to new treatments and awaking.
Animals (at least the ones we eat) never “grow up” or
“wake up” to self-conscious, self-contemplative life.
They are not developing persons. They are never
persons. They always and will always lack the essential
properties of a person (self-awareness, metacognition,
and worldview modeling). They never acquire the
ability to have values (and thus “value existing”), in any
relevant sense. That’s simply an objective neurological
fact of them.

R OB • AUGUS T 1, 2012, 9 :36 AM

Hi Richard,

Apologies if I misstate your argument, but you seem to be setting up the following:

A) Not eating meat is an extreme form of behaviour, which can only be brought about by very strong
convictions.

B) People holding such strong convictions should follow them to their logical ends and refuse to
fraternize with meat-eaters, or even kill those responsible for meat production.

C) If they refuse to do this, they are being hypocritical and should just eat meat.

I was just wondering what you’d make of my position. I think eating meat is probably wrong, but there seem to
be reasonable arguments on both sides, and I’ve read well-informed people arguing both positions. I try not to
be dogmatic in my reasoning, and leave open the possibility that I could be wrong, especially on an issue where
there is so much disagreement.

As such (and relating this to your argument, as stated above) abstaining from eating meat and not spurning or
hurting people over it seems reasonable to me because:

A) It doesn’t have a strong impact on my life (thus is not extreme behaviour brought about by strong
convictions).

B) It avoids some potential harm to animals that may be caused if the arguments made by one side of the debate
are correct.

C) If I am wrong (and I may well be), the action of hurting or killing a person would be extremely immoral. I
wouldn’t be prepared to do that until I was sure I was right.

So:

If I’m wrong – No additional animals or humans are hurt as a result of my actions.

If I’m right – No additional animals or humans are hurt as a result of my actions.

Until I’m completely certain on the issue, this seems to be a reasonable course of action to take. I’d be
interested in getting your thoughts on this though. Enjoying Proving History by the way!

R E P LY

R IC H AR D C AR R IER • AUGUS T 2, 2012, 6 :14 P M

“
A) Not eating meat is an extreme form of behaviour, which can only be
brought about by very strong convictions.

I stated that there can be ordinary aesthetic reasons (“I don’t like meat”) and medical reasons
(“I can’t eat meat”), so A is not strictly my argument. It’s what’s left after you rule out the
others.

“
B) People holding such strong convictions should follow them to their logical
ends and refuse to fraternize with meat-eaters, or even kill those responsible
for meat production.

Or else realize their convictions are absurd, precisely because what living consistently by
them would entail.

In contrast, willfully choosing to just be inconsistent is a symptom of irrationality. Which, like

religious belief, is a red flag for ulterior motives (example: many people are religious simply
because of their fear of death, regardless of how much they deny that or are not really
honestly aware of it; and the inconsistency of their beliefs and behaviors is evidence of there
being such a hidden motive that is the real reason they persist in their belief).

“
C) If they refuse to do this, they are being hypocritical and should just eat
meat.
Given that A is false (and there are other reasons to be a vegetarian), C does not follow.

Moreover, there is a difference between suffering from a phobia, and insisting other people
are immoral for not having the same phobia. I don’t think it’s a matter of agoraphobics just
needing to get over it and go outside already. Escaping the psychological pain of their phobia
is not that easily done, and we can respect that. But when agoraphobics start adducing
irrational arguments and dubious facts in an attempt to argue that anyone who goes outside is
a mass murderer and torturer (like some hard-core Jain)…well, what you then get is
analogous to what you are seeing here.

“
I was just wondering what you’d make of my position. I think eating meat is
probably wrong, but there seem to be reasonable arguments on both sides,
and I’ve read well-informed people arguing both positions. I try not to be
dogmatic in my reasoning, and leave open the possibility that I could be
wrong, especially on an issue where there is so much disagreement.

Where the information needed to answer the matter is available, that is not a reasonable
position to settle into. And there is ample information here (once you clear through the bullshit
and hyperbole on both sides).

Moral facts are a function of what harms are actually caused, in the context of what goods
are produced (which are not necessarily commensurate, e.g. strict utilitarianism is false, but so
is any strict deontological ethic).

What harms does eating meat actually produce that make it “probably” immoral? And are
those harms removable in more achievable ways? (e.g. as happened in this thread, “gestation
crates for pigs is the harm that makes eating pigs immoral” entails “removing gestation crates
in pig farming makes eating pigs moral again,” thus the actual problem was gestation crates,
not eating meat.)

Likewise any other harms one might enumerate, until you get to harms that simply aren’t great
enough to have that conclusion at all, just as the harms done to reasonably-treated-and-
compensated workers does not make using their products immoral–and when workers are
not reasonably-treated-and-compensated, the solution is to find practical and effective ways
to change that, which includes honest dissemination of the facts and political and grass roots
lobbying–and when you have the numbers to be effective in making it hurt, only then
boycotting, and even that only works when you will return as a customer when the targeted
offender reforms, because otherwise the offender has no reason to reform, if it will not
recover any new business; which is why vegetarianism actually does no good: only meat-
eaters can reform the livestock industry, by voting with their dollars, whereas vegetarians are
non-actors and thus have zero vote in the market, thus they can effect no reforms benefiting
animals, because they provide the industry with no incentives to effect them.

“
 “
It doesn’t have a strong impact on my life (thus is not extreme behaviour
brought about by strong convictions).

Think this through. Your friends “might” be mass murderers and torturers (in fact it’s
“probable,” your own words), so your uncertainty makes it okay to keep them your friends?

“
B) It avoids some potential harm to animals that may be caused if the
arguments made by one side of the debate are correct.

No it doesn’t. Identify a single animal saved from “harms” by your abstention. Good luck
with that. This is like saying not buying slaves rescues slaves from slavery, or your not gassing
Jews would rescue Jews from the holocaust.

It’s worse, because any real harms there may be–e.g. gestation crates–will never be
eliminated if you aren’t even voting in the meat market. If two businesses are competing for
customers and you will buy from neither, if one of them eliminates the gestation crates they
will then suffer a net loss rather than a net gain, and are therefore de-incentivized to do that;
by contrast, by my patronizing California producers, I am incentivizing the elimination of
gestation crates and thus I am actually improving the welfare of pigs. Your behavior does
nothing whatever for them.

“
C) If I am wrong (and I may well be), the action of hurting or killing a person
would be extremely immoral. I wouldn’t be prepared to do that until I was
sure I was right.

This is correct. If you weren’t sure someone was a serial killer, but only thought they
“probably” were, you would not kill them (you couldn’t even convict them in a court of law).
But you still would not befriend them or even hang out with them.

Consistency is a bitch.

R E P LY
 R OB • AUGUS T 3, 2012, 2:44 AM

Thanks for the comments! I’ll think about what you’ve written. I should also have made it
clear that I wasn’t trying to reproduce your whole argument, just the section which was
relevant to the point I was making, so apologies there.

My only initial quibble is with the “phobia” thing. I don’t think I have a phobia about eating
meat; I only became a vegetarian last year after reading some books and articles that I found
convincing, and I still maintain that I would eat artificially produced meat (or meat from an
animal that had died of natural causes, in whatever scenario that might occur). I may be
wrong in my reasoning, but it wouldn’t be fair to describe my stance as representative of a
phobia, or as a consequence of anthropomorphism. I don’t feel particularly sad or upset
about the idea of animals being killed, nor do I accord them the same moral value as human
beings, but I do think it’s wrong to cause an animal suffering unneccesarily.

You may be right that the suffering is not enough to warrant the adoption of vegetarian
principles (though this is the part I’m least sold on), and you may also be right that
vegetarianism is a bad way to address the issue. You made your argument well, and that’s
something that I’ll have to think about.

Thanks again for the response.

R E P LY

R IC H AR D C AR R IER • AUGUS T 3, 2012, 1:49 P M

I only became a vegetarian last year after reading some books and articles that I found
convincing, and I still maintain that I would eat artificially produced meat (or meat
from an animal that had died of natural causes, in whatever scenario that might
occur).

What about killing and eating animals you raise yourself, and thus can ensure live and die
humanely?

This is really the litmus test. If the thought of killing, gutting and skinning an animal to eat it is
repellant, and this factors at all in your decision not to eat meat, then your decision is aesthetic
and not moral. But if it really is just about uncertainties as to how the other workers are
treating the animals when you aren’t doing it yourself, then you should be eating the meat of
local free range farms, where you can verify their treatment of the livestock, rather than
avoiding all meat.

The only problem with that scenario is that it would establish you as an upper class elite, and
thus makes meat a privilege of the rich. That’s fine, as long as we admit it, and aim to do
something about it. Making meat available to more people of different class and privilege
would then be a function of advocating for sustainable improvements in industrial farming.

But industrial farming itself is irreplaceable. The population of the world is far too large and
densely aggregated for local farming to provide even a fraction of what it needs to eat, much
less the hundreds of non-food animal products the world requires to function. Thus we have
 to look for reasonable ways to produce meat that are not needlessly cruel but still highly
efficient. And that requires honestly finding out what actually is and isn’t cruel. A lot of what
vegetarians declare cruel is not; and most of what is, doesn’t normally happen or is even
illegal, particularly in progressive states; what remains is what is to be targeted for change,
especially by voting with our dollars, one thing the relatively wealthy can use to better the
world.

R E P LY

MALLOR IE N AS R ALLAH • AUGUS T 24, 2012, 4:26 AM

I’ve noticed this conversation has stayed lively, so I figured I would ask:

does this change your sentiment at all Richard?

http://io9.com/5937356/prominent-scientists-sign-declaration-that-animals-have-conscious-awareness-
just-like-us

Its fairly ambiguous, but I d think it opens the argument for “I don’t know therefore I choose to abstain” in
regard to eating meat that is a product of the modern meat industry.

R E P LY

R IC H AR D C AR R IER • AUGUS T 30, 2012, 5:01 P M

Did you read the actual statement? It says (emphasis mine):

“
“The absence of a neocortex does not appear to preclude an organism from
experiencing affective states. Convergent evidence indicates that non-human
animals have the neuroanatomical, neurochemical, and neurophysiological
substrates of conscious states along with the capacity to exhibit intentional
behaviors. Consequently, the weight of evidence indicates that humans are
not unique in possessing the neurological substrates that generate
consciousness. Nonhuman animals, including all mammals and birds, and
many other creatures, including octopuses, also possess these neurological
substrates.”

This actually nowhere says what the article says, that “animals are conscious and aware to the
degree that humans are.” Thus, the journalism is crap. The statement itself doesn’t say that. It
says animals possess affective and intentional states (i.e. emotions, intentions, and associative
knowledge; I myself have affirmed this, in the very article above, and gave it as a reason to
 care about how animals are treated). Therefore they possess the substrates that generate
consciousness, not that they, too have human-level consciousness (which is defined by self-
knowledge, identity-formation, metacognition, and abstract thought, none of which are
affirmed by the statement in question).

I should also mention that as I stated upthread my article is only about the animals we eat,
not ones we don’t, and shouldn’t, which includes dolphins, whales, elephants, apes,
monkeys, magpies and African greys. Because those animals have the brain anatomy and
demonstrated cognitive powers that come close to (even if not matching) human
consciousness.

R E P LY

A N TON I O • N OV EMBER 2, 201 2, 7:48 P M

“
Again, an animal’s life is indifferent to when it dies, because it does not become anything and
has no awareness of being something.

I have difficulties with this line of reasoning.

First, you argue that an animal does not have the mental facilities to develop a degree of desire for a continuous
existence. Granted, animals do have less “hardware” for computing their consciousness. Nevertheless, I cannot
see how we can derive a lack of desire for a continuous existence from that fact. What is the established
neuroscientific body of knowledge that lets us come to such a conclusion with the supposed reasonable certainty
that you proclaim? I would rather say that, for the moment, we have to stay skeptical about the capabilities and
limitations of desires that, for instance, pigs can develop. However, we are certain that mammals in general do
have the desire for well-being.

Second, I do not see the need for an awareness of a continuous existence in order to claim that the termination
of a conscious being’s life ought to be considered a significant ethical factor. Surely, the mammals we are talking
about have a desire to stay alive. Otherwise, they would not avoid harm which they understand to be lethal. Why
is that not enough to grant the animal the interest of continuing its existence? It seems to me that you argument
basically implies “if the animal is too dumb to understand that it’s well-being is stretched out on a limited timeline
and will be terminated through death, then killing it while it is unaware of that fact is morally insignificant.” I do
not see how this argument can work. Why is the fact that the animal has the desire to not die enough to be
ethically considered?

I do not argue that animals are equal to humans or that animal lives ought to have the same value as human lives.
I just argue that the animals desire to live is a) evident and b) ought to be considered in the ethical formula.
Personally, I have no ethical problem with killing animals for greater scientific purposes in medical research or if
no other food is available to me. However, I do not see how I could consistently condemn the killing of infants
for no good reason other than “fun” and the killing of animals for pleasure of taste. I do not see how my desire to
taste yummy food is more important than the desire of a mentally less sophisticated animal to live. As our
conscious faculties have the same evolutionary background, I do not see that this basic desire to not die should
be qualitatively different in animals than in humans.

“
I also find vegetarians irrational in their acceptance of non-vegetarians. Either eating meat is
not all that immoral, or everyone they know is a villain, horrifically consuming the flesh of
concentration camp victims.

No. How could I condemn somebody for eating meat (even if I think that eating meat for pleasure is ethically not
defendable) if eating meat is so deeply rooted in our culture that an ethical reflection of this issue is never really
comes to most people’s minds? In our daily lives we don’t even perceive that meat ultimately comes from
animals. Almost all of us never butchered an animal, let alone visited a slaughterhouse. And even if we come to
reflect on the ethical dimension of eating meat, the habit of eating meat has become so accustomed to us and so
much part of our daily routine that it is psychologically hard to part with it, let alone come to a conclusion that we
might have done something morally wrong for almost every day of our life and enjoyed it.

It would be highly naive to put meat eaters on the same level with murderes.

R E P LY

RICH ARD CARRIER • N OVEMBER 6 , 2012, 9 :13 AM

“
Granted, animals do have less “hardware” for computing their
consciousness. Nevertheless, I cannot see how we can derive a lack of desire
for a continuous existence from that fact.

Knowledge of self is required for that (actual or potential). Only certain animals have
demonstrated that ability or have anything like the dedicated brain architecture needed to
produce it (and I mention that in the article: we don’t eat them and shouldn’t). Knowledge of
abstract concepts is also required. Some of those animals exhibit indications of that ability,
too. But all other animals do not.

The bottom line is that the animals we eat do not have any conception of being a person or
having a narrative self, don’t have any conception of what death is or why it would be bad,
and don’t have any conception of the value of living (knowledge of which is the only thing that
makes death in any way bad).

Killing a person destroys a universe, a marvelous constructed identity called a self. No such
thing exists in livestock. Thus a painless death for them does not do anything that can honestly
be described as a harm to them. It can do harm to their owners or caretakers but that’s not
the issue at hand.

“
What is the established neuroscientific body of knowledge that lets us come to
such a conclusion with the supposed reasonable certainty that you proclaim?

Observed behavior establishes animal ignorance, just as it establishes animal knowledge and
ability (self-awareness studies, metacognition studies, abstract reasoning tests). But more
importantly, we know an extremely complex brain architecture is required (because we aren’t
supernaturalists: the only way a complex mental ability can exist is with a correspondingly
complex machine to generate it), and we know what the brain regions in animals do, and thus
we know what they don’t do, what they aren’t dedicated to doing.

For example, an octopus is one of the very few animals that has a large enough brain to
produce self-awareness and abstract thought. Size here is a measure of relative mass to the
animal’s body, not absolute size: because most of any brain is dedicated to running an
animal’s body, there is a minimum brain-to-body mass ratio; everything above that entails
additional abilities of either a quantity or a complexity proportionate to the added brain
matter. But almost all of that added brain matter in an octopus we know is devoted to
operating its camouflage system on its skin, which is incredibly complex. It therefore has too
little brain matter left over to have a self generator. So we can know octopi, though intelligent,
do not have the cognitive capabilities of, for example, an ape or a dolphin or an elephant or
even a magpie.

“
I would rather say that, for the moment, we have to stay skeptical about the
capabilities and limitations of desires that, for instance, pigs can develop.

No, we don’t. We know what every piece of a pig’s brain does. We’ve even known this for
two thousand years (Greco-Roman anatomists tested animal brain function by cutting pieces
out and seeing what functions ceased, for example; pigs were a common subject), but the
20th century has seen a tremendous advance in the detail and extent of this knowledge. Once
you account for all the functions like running the body, the visual system, the auditory system,
and so on, there is too little left over to run anything like a self-generator. So we no more
have to be skeptical of what pigs can do than we need be skeptical of what our desktop
computers can do.

And that’s in addition to the fact that observational studies confirm this completely: pigs do
not pass any tests of self-cognition, metacognition, or abstract thought, and never exhibit any
behaviors concordant with them. We therefore have no more reason to think they can
magically acquire these abilities (or are magically hiding them) than we have to think that of
our desktop computers.

“
However, we are certain that mammals in general do have the desire for
well-being.

Which entails we ought to treat them as well as we reasonably can while they are alive.
Compassion demands nothing more. Because though pain is something we can empathize
with, they have no self to lose in death, and thus there is no correlation between our
experience of life and death, and theirs. We might anthropomorphically project such a thing
on to them, but that would be objectively in error, just like confusing a fetus that looks like a
baby with an actual self-aware baby, and concluding the one must be a person because the
other is.

“
Second, I do not see the need for an awareness of a continuous existence in
order to claim that the termination of a conscious being’s life ought to be
considered a significant ethical factor. Surely, the mammals we are talking
about have a desire to stay alive. Otherwise, they would not avoid harm
which they understand to be lethal. Why is that not enough to grant the
animal the interest of continuing its existence?

That’s the wrong question.

What obligations does someone else’s desires place on you? You are not under any moral
obligation to fulfill the every desire even of other people; much less so, animals. Thus the
mere fact of having a desire is morally meaningless.

The burden is therefore on you to prove there is any basis for universally caring about
whether an animal lives another day. Of what value is it? And of what magnitude is that value,
relative to competing values?

Do not confuse an aesthetic interest in preserving an animal’s experience (like an aesthetic

interest in preserving a garden) with a moral imperative to do so. Those are not the same
thing.

That’s why you have to establish first why anything at all is moral–what is the metaethical
foundation for saying something is an obligation on everyone (rather than just an emotional
preference of your own)?
Once you work that out, then you can argue for why caring about an animal’s continued
existence is an obligation. Then we can examine whether your foundation is defensible or not,
and whether your conclusion follows from it or not.

I’ve done this (in the final chapter of The End of Christianity). Long story short, for a
number of reasons (both internal and external), our lives are better if we treat others as we
would expect to be treated, and in the final, objective analysis we have no other reason to do
anything than to better our lives (or avoid making them worse).

So, would I want to be treated like a person if I was not a person? No. I would have no
conception of what life even meant, no conception of who I was or what I was, no self-
knowledge. I would, in effect, be effectively already dead. The part of me that is “me” would
have been destroyed–completely–all that would remain is the animal brain that lacks any
narrative identity or self-cognition. Killing me would therefore be of no significance to me. It
therefore would be of no significance to anyone else. But hurting me would be of some
significance, since even though I could not relate the pain to my person (since no person then
exists), it would not be “me” in pain but a substantially degraded version of me, what was left
of me would still feel it.

Thus, to treat others as we would want to be treated entails caring a little about how animals
feel, but nothing about whether animals get an extra day to live. The latter is meaningless to
them. Only the former is objectively meaningful to anyone.

“
I do not see how my desire to taste yummy food is more important than the
desire of a mentally less sophisticated animal to live.

Note that this is an aesthetic statement, not a moral one. What you subjectively prefer is not
an obligation on me or anyone else. It’s just your taste, your preference, your own personal
set of priorities.

And that’s fine. Just don’t try to pretend your personal tastes entail moral obligations on
anyone else (or that satisfying your personal tastes make you a moral person; but I am
assuming your motivation is not the aesthetic pleasure of feeling self-righteousness).

I must first remind you that pleasure is not all we get out of animals. Read my article again,
especially the section concerning the vast quantity of industrial products we extract from
animals, upon which almost every human industry depends, from medicine to manufacturing
(and animals are vastly cheaper and cleaner sources of those materials than synthetic
replacements). But let’s set that aside and assume it’s just about pleasure.

We trade a great deal for pleasure. Just imagine a vegetarian meal: from the field laborers
who harvested the food, to the workers who trucked it to the market, to the cooks and
servers who labor to provide it to you, a tremendous amount of misery and hardship and loss
went into that. But that’s okay. Because we believe the mutual system of trade is acceptable
to all parties.
Although that’s not entirely true: the field laborers are still getting a bad shake, and their
welfare should be of far greater concern to you than the lifespan of animals–there is a vast
chasm between those things in terms of overall objective significance, and should be a vast
chasm between them in even your personal value system, as otherwise your compassion is all
out of whack.

This illustrates the first part of the problem: in the order of values, the welfare of actual
persons is vastly more important than the lifespan of an animal that can’t even conceive of
the value of a longer lifespan. (And I haven’t even gotten to pointing out that letting an animal
suffer the misery of dying of old age is actually more harmful to them than killing them in their
prime, since they cannot conceive of the relative benefits of still living with the pains of aging
and thus they cannot make the better of it as we can.)

And an industry in food and pleasure production is key to the welfare of actual persons.
Pleasure is also key to having a life worth living. Thus, pleasure is not some trivial, base thing.
It’s an essential component of the moral life. As long as it is in reasonable regulation; but
that’s not the issue here.

So why should an animal’s lifespan matter more than the employment and enjoyment of life of
millions of actual people? There is no objective reason why it should. So objectively, it
doesn’t.

If animals could grasp the significance of living (like the farm laborers can who provide
vegetarians with their food), then their lifespans would have meaningful value, and thus
compassion would compel us to take that into account. But that just isn’t the case. There is
simply no objective sense in which an animal’s living longer is of any significant value to
anyone–even the animal.

An animal’s desire to avoid harm and reduce its miseries is not the same thing as a desire to
live longer. “Living longer” is an unintelligible concept to an animal, because the utility of living
is an unintelligible concept to an animal, even “tomorrow” is an unintelligible concept to an
animal, and likewise death is an unintelligible concept to an animal–and an animal has no
narrative self-identity to lose in death.

“
I do not see that this basic desire to not die should be qualitatively different in
animals than in humans.

This is a fallacy. Animals do not have a “basic desire to not die.” They have the desire to
avoid pain and discomfort and things that scare them. But they do not have any
comprehension of the fact that they do so in order not to die. That requires an abstract
understanding of death and what it entails and why it is bad. Which in turn requires a self-
conception that can relate the abstract consequences of dying to the self that would thereby
be destroyed.

“
 “
No. How could I condemn somebody for eating meat (even if I think that
eating meat for pleasure is ethically not defendable) if eating meat is so
deeply rooted in our culture that an ethical reflection of this issue is never
really comes to most people’s minds?

Replace “eating meat” with “crucifying Jews” in that sentence and then try to answer it.

“
It would be highly naive to put meat eaters on the same level with murderers.

If they are not committing murder, then what are they doing that’s wrong?

R E P LY

A N TON IO • N OVEMBER 12, 2012, 10:58 AM

Thank’s for your extensive answer. I am afraid I have not enough time to give an appropiat answer but I’d like
to address the points that I find most crucial.

“
Knowledge of self is required for that (actual or potential). Only certain animals have
demonstrated that ability or have anything like the dedicated brain architecture needed to
produce it (and I mention that in the article: we don’t eat them and shouldn’t). Knowledge of
abstract concepts is also required. Some of those animals exhibit indications of that ability, too.
But all other animals do not.

I disagree that knowledge is necessary to have desires. For instance, I can have the desire to eat or have sex
without actually being rationally aware of it at every particular moment. I can feel pain and the desire to be
relieved of it without reflecting on my pain. In fact, when we are suffering from blinding pain we tend to not think
at all but instead are driven of an intuitive desire to make it stop. I can also have the desire of existing while
“living in the present” without ever reflecting about my future. We can know that because we can estimate my
hypothetical reaction to an obvious lethal threat.

It’s also not just about immediate pain. An animal that never experienced pain will understand the danger of a
river with a strong current or a pack of predators and avoid it. It will show reactions of fear. If the animal can
“compute” an accurate model of the implications such an situation might have without ever directly having
experienced them, how can we reasonably say that “it understands that this situation will lead to pain” but not “it
understands that this situation might lead to its end”?

Hence, I grant animals the capability of having these basic, intuitive desires including the desire to exist. I derive
that from their behavior in face of obvious lethal threat. I agree that animals do not necessarily reflect on these
desires or do not have a concept of self but I do not see how the non-existence of a desire of existing follows
from that logically. The argument of brain capability is therefore not relevant if one follows that line of reasoning.
It is therefore quite rational to grant animals the same desire to exist based on their behavior in situations where
they can actually understand that they are in lethal danger and not being “fooled”.

“
What obligations does someone else’s desires place on you? You are not under any moral
obligation to fulfill the every desire even of other people; much less so, animals. Thus the mere
fact of having a desire is morally meaningless.

It is a question of consistency. Why should I not take desires of animals into consideration when calculating my
moral formula when I grant them the mentioned basic desires that I grant every other person? Of course, how I
deal with humans has bigger social implications and is therefore more relevant to me. A society in which I can kill
infants for pleasure would not be as stable as a society which condemns it. The same cannot be said of killing
animals. However, following this argument I would argue from a position of pure self-interest. We could argue if
that is a sound basis for an ethical system.

And an industry in food and pleasure production is key to the welfare of actual persons. Pleasure is also key to
having a life worth living.

Sure. The question is not if the pleasure of eating meat is good. The question is, is it good enough to ignore the
desire for existence that I grant animals? Would I suffer from not eating meat, for instance, if I never tasted it
before? I think not. I would suffer from having pain even if I did not know any other condition. I do not see how
the pleasure of eating meat can have a significant importance when I can have similar flavors without meat, for
instance through eating vegetarian meat-like products.

“
Replace “eating meat” with “crucifying Jews” in that sentence and then try to answer it.

The problem is not the action per-se but the visibility of that action in society. The thing with meat is that you
actually never really realize that that piece of stuff on your plate has been a living being. Many say that a visit to a
slaughterhouse, let alone the hypothetical necessity to butcher every animal of meat that you eat yourself, would
turn many people into vegetarians, given the availability of easy alternatives that other cultures did not or do not
have, and I tend to agree.
R E P LY

RICH ARD CARRIER • N OVEMBER 29 , 2012, 8:33 AM

“
I disagree that knowledge is necessary to have desires.

I never said it was.

I said desires without knowledge are not conscious desires.

I was very clear about this: having desires does not make you valuable. Knowing your
desires does.

The mere existence of desires has no value at all, any more than the mere fact of something
being alive is of value (hence we have no qualms about eating living things called plants).

“
I can feel pain and the desire to be relieved of it without reflecting on my
pain.

Which is exactly what I myself have consistently been saying. We ought to have concern for
the pleasure and pain we cause. But death does not cause pain. So that’s irrelevant here.
What of value is destroyed by killing an animal? Very little–certainly relative to destroying a
person. That’s the issue.

“
I can also have the desire of existing while “living in the present” without
ever reflecting about my future.

And if you never reflected on your future (or past or present self) and were incapable of
reflecting on your future (or past or present self) and had no desire to reflect on your future
(or past or present self) and nothing would ever change this (no development, learning, or
impetus), then your life would have no value (beyond what value it may have to other people,
but that’s not the issue here).

That’s the difference between “sometimes I don’t think about my future” and “I am physically
incapable of ever thinking about my future or even knowing what a future is, and I never will”
(which sentence could never be uttered in honesty by any being ever, since anyone capable
of forming that sentence knowing what it means would by definition not be a person
physically incapable of ever thinking about their future or even knowing what a future is).

“
It’s also not just about immediate pain. An animal that never experienced
pain will understand the danger of a river with a strong current or a pack of
predators and avoid it. It will show reactions of fear. If the animal can
“compute” an accurate model of the implications such an situation might
have without ever directly having experienced them, how can we reasonably
say that “it understands that this situation will lead to pain” but not “it
understands that this situation might lead to its end”?

The burden of evidence is on you to draw that inference, not on me to deny it. You are
claiming a non sequitur (knowledge of X entails knowledge of Y). You are the one who has
to connect those two so that the claim is no longer a non sequitur. Does knowledge of X
entail knowledge of Y? Not logically. So you would have to prove the connection
empirically. Scientists have been trying to do that for centuries. And as I summarized, the
evidence has come out against you: knowledge of X simply does not coexist with knowledge
of Y for almost all animals.

If you wish, like a creationist or climate science denier, to deny the evidence and even
pretend you can draw an inference without any evidence, then you are no longer engaging in
rational argument or thought.

“
Why should I not take desires of animals into consideration when calculating
my moral formula when I grant them the mentioned basic desires that I grant
every other person?

Again, you have the burden of evidence the wrong way around. As I said, not all desires
have value or equal value. You are simply not obligated to satisfy the every desire of every
living thing. To do so consistently would make your life not only absurdly unlivable, it would
end it pretty quickly.

Therefore, we must have a reason to value a desire before we modify our behavior to
conform to it.
I have said we have sufficient reason to value animals’ desires to avoid needless pain. But
death does not cause them pain. And as animals do not have a desire to live (in the sense of
consciously being aware of what more life means and what they can do with it and thus
seeing its value), we are not satisfying any desire of theirs by letting them live. An animal
continuing to live another day or year simply has no value to that animal. It indeed has no
objective value at all, any more than my computer continuing to be powered on does. We
ourselves can value an animal’s continued existence (e.g. a pet or a work animal) just as we
can value our computer’s staying on, but as soon as we no longer value that, or value
something else more, we turn it off (animal or computer, same thing–the only difference is that
the range of experience and feeling in an animal is greater, but that’s why we account for their
pleasure and pain, but don’t trouble ourselves over whether our computers are happy or in
pain).

The bottom line is: what value is an animal’s living another year? If you cannot answer that,
then you cannot have a rational reason to care. You can have a nonrational reason (e.g. an
aesthetic pleasure from it) that would be perfectly valid, but that’s not a moral reason
(because it is not universal and by no rational argument can it be said it must be). Even if you
can cobble together a reason to care (and I suspect you would only do so in a fallacy of post
hoc rationalization: inventing reasons you never had before, in order to rationalize after the
fact a position you really only held for aesthetic or irrational reasons until then), would that
reason be as compelling as all the utility and pleasure we derive from animal products?
Would it have greater value? I’m pretty sure not. It wouldn’t even approach it. But then, as I
said, that burden is on you. Maybe you can come up with something no one has ever thought
of before. It’s unlikely, but nothing is impossible.

“
The question is not if the pleasure of eating meat is good. The question is, is it
good enough to ignore the desire for existence that I grant animals?

Actually, that’s not the question. If we were talking about how you yourself should live your
life, and thus you appealed to your personal aesthetic likes and dislikes as grounds for you
not to eat meat, there would be no debate here (so long as your premises were true and your
inferences from them logically valid). So the question is not whether the benefits derived from
animal products are greater than “the desire for existence that I grant animals” but whether
the benefits derived from animal products are greater than “the desire for existence that we
all ought to grant animals.”

You seem lost on the distinction. The one is just a personal preference. Only the latter is a
moral argument. And that requires appealing not to how you feel, but about how people
ought to feel. Which is why I explained you need a ground for any and all moral imperatives
in the first place, so that you have a valid way of getting from an is to an ought (contrary to
common assumption, you can get from an is to an ought, and in fact that is the only way to
ever get an ought at all: see The End of Christianity, pp. 334-35 and 340-45).

Is there any sense in which everyone ought to agree that an animal’s continued existence is
more valuable than the benefits of disassembling them and using their parts in various ways?
Not to my knowledge. Is there any sense in which everyone ought to agree that an animal’s
desire to continue to exist is more valuable than the benefits of disassembling them and using
their parts in various ways? Animals are not even capable of having that desire in the only
meaningful sense relevant (as in, knowing what continuing to exist means and why it’s
valuable, or being able to one day know that, and thus desiring the actual object in itself for
what it actually is), and in the much-more-watered-down sense of indirectly and unknowingly
desiring continued existence by simply desiring to avoid pain and pursue pleasure, such a
desire is objectively valueless in the grand scheme. It is no more valuable than the actual
desire they have (to avoid pain and pursue pleasure), which in itself is of no value (other than
insofar as it is heeded by not causing needless pain, for example).

“
Would I suffer from not eating meat, for instance, if I never tasted it before? I
think not.

Not that that would be relevant. Most pleasures in life are like that. That is not an argument to
avoid them, or not to value them once we realize how pleasurable they are. Oral sex, for
instance.

The premise itself is questionable. We have innate brain chemistry and taste receptors and
olfactory channels and brain centers devoted to savoring and enjoying meat. I doubt
someone who never enjoyed meat would not suffer some sense of deprivation, just as a virgin
does sex (only less in degree). But that’s not relevant anyway, since the premise, even if true,
leads to no valid conclusion regarding the utility of eating meat. Much less all the industrial
products we get from animals.

“
I do not see how the pleasure of eating meat can have a significant
importance when I can have similar flavors without meat, for instance
through eating vegetarian meat-like products.

If that were really true for you, you are an odd duck aesthetically. But at any rate, I can affirm
from direct experience that this is not even remotely true for me. And for most people I
know.

And that kills any chance you may have had of making a moral argument out this. That which
is not universal, is not moral.

“
 “
[RE: Replace “eating meat” with “crucifying Jews” in that sentence and
then try to answer it.] The problem is not the action per-se but the visibility of
that action in society. The thing with meat is that you actually never really
realize that that piece of stuff on your plate has been a living being. Many say
that a visit to a slaughterhouse, let alone the hypothetical necessity to butcher
every animal of meat that you eat yourself, would turn many people into
vegetarians, given the availability of easy alternatives that other cultures did
not or do not have, and I tend to agree.

This is simply false. I have killed and prepped my own animals for consumption. And most
people are well aware of what happens to animals from farm to plate. Indeed, the more so in
families that fish. Which is a lot of families.

It is in fact only very recently in history that the kind of separation you describe even existed
for people. Yet for fifty thousand years, including ten thousand years of civilization and three
thousand years of explicit discussion of the philosophy of eating meat, your prediction simply
didn’t come true: only a radical fringe few ever abstained from meat after seeing what is done
to make it (even in the otherwise extreme cultural outlier of Hindu culture: most Hindus are
not, and have not been, vegetarians). Throughout most history, the vast majority of people
actually were doing the killing and butchering themselves; and even when affluence spread to
the point that a significant percentage of any population didn’t have to do that (they could
afford to pay others to), they still lived amongst it being done daily.

And even now we see the same: millions of families in this country hunt and fish and raise
birds and kill and butcher their food from time to time–and they are not put off it.

So you are just projecting your own subjective queasiness, a merely aesthetic reaction, onto
all other people as if what you felt is what everyone does. It’s not.

Worse, not only are you trying to turn a subjective preference into a universal moral rule by
which to judge other people, your reasoning even for yourself is fallacious.

I know many people who are similarly queasy and thus incapable of performing or even
watching surgery, prepping the dead for burial, cleaning up sewage, changing diapers,
clearing dead animals from highways, facing down gunfire, running into a burning building, and
on and on. In no way is their unwillingness or inability to handle these things a reason to
declare them immoral. We vomit at the sight of blood; so we hire someone else to do surgery
and keep it out of our view. We think scooping the guts out of a pumpkin is gross and can’t
bear to even watch it; so we ask a friend to take care of it while we are out. We would be
too terrified to move in combat or a fire; so we hire people more fortified than us to defend
our lives and save our neighbors. That’s how civilization works. Division of labor according
to our respective talents and faults.

I’m reminded of the anti-abortionist who plays up personal revulsion at dismembering a

brainless fetus that resembles a baby in order to complete a second trimester abortion…of an
entirely unconscious, effectively brainless organism less developed and aware than a
 comatose chicken…and even to save the life of the mother. That this makes some people
queasy has nothing to do with whether it is right or wrong. Therefore, revulsion cannot be a
basis for moral argument. That hacking up a mid-term fetus and sucking it out of a womb to
save someone’s life is gross and icky and very few people could stomach doing it or even
watching it is simply not sufficient reason to declare it criminal, or even wrong. It’s not. On
the objective facts of the matter.

Thus, please do not confuse feelings with facts. There can be a connection, but it has to be
made. Not assumed.

And for all that, this is still not a valid answer to my point anyway. Hidden factories burning
up Jews would not justify treating the people paying the furnace operators the same way
“meat is murder” vegetarians treat meat eaters either. My point stands.

R E P LY

BARB N OON • APRIL 3, 2013, 6 :51 PM

Richard, this is probably one of the only times I will disagree with you. I do think a lot of your facts are accurate;
for instance, your statistics on global warming from animals, but I think there is more more to animals’ lives than
being kept indoors all the time or hooked up to milk machines three times a day because of the genetic
engineering that makes cows produce up to 20 times the milk they should normally produce. We break up
families when we mass produce animals. Pigs have their teeth routinely cut off as infants, and most animals are
castrated with no anesthesia and often by the farmer grabbing and pulling. Male chicks are groud up at one day
of age, because they are of no use as egg layers and are bred to be the wrong size for meat produciton. Every
stage of factory farming is rife with cruelty, and slaughterhouse workers will tell that a good share of the animals
make it to the cutting up of their limbs while still alive. It is just not necessary.

I did not agree with your opinion that vegans are not really bothered by meat because we sit with meat eaters.
We are surrounded by food and we are taught as vegans to be kind and accepting as most people come to their
own conclusions slowly. We usually are vegan because of our own morals, but are often harrassed by others
who question us and then make fun of us. I just want to eat my food.
Some of the health studies you mention might be the ones where they compare what they call low fat diets with
vegetarian diets and meat eating diets. The problem is that the medical community calls a low fat diet a diet of
37% fat. If you look at diets such as the McDougall diet (I do not eat that low in fat), you will see people with
clean arteries (check out arterial reversal pictures at Dr. Esselstyn’s site), and you will see slim, active older
people who do not have diabetes or a lot of degenerative conditions. Americans are not healthy, and doctors in
America call cholesterol levels of 200 or below “healthy.” This is why “healthy” people get heart attacks. You
must get below 150 total cholesterol to be considered heart attack free. Mine’s 120, I’m 56, and again, I eat
what I consider to be delicious meals. I could say more, but I just want you to know that I think there is more to
this subject that me having a “phobia.” I am proud of myself, more so than at any other time in my life, and I do
not consider that a phobia. Most vegans do not think the world will be entirely vegan, but we are increasing (as
are atheists), and we think the few who stick with eating meat will be far fewer and most of the abuse of animals
will end.

I hope you find my post polite as I greatly respect you and have learned so much. I just disagree with you on this
topic.
Barb Noon
R E P LY

RICH ARD CARRIER • APRIL 4, 2013, 9 :55 AM

These claims ignore my arguments. You are assuming all the things you list are bad, yet give
no explanation why, and when one might infer (causing pain), you skip straight over “doing it
better” (e.g. using anesthesia) all the way to “not eating meat.” Which is a fallacy I address in
my post at length.

Likewise you make medical claims that are highly dubious and would not survive skeptical
review. See the Rational Wiki article on Forks Over Knives, which you seem to have been
duped by. Indeed, Esselin’s studies are a joke. Just look at the absurdly small sample sizes
and poor completion of his studies and no controls, and indeed no good proof of statistically
significant differences in outcomes (e.g. here). He also uses weird arguments, like that small
isolated populations that have no medical care and half a normal lifespan, have low reported
rates of a disease, therefore they have low rates of that disease (if you don’t get the fallacy
there, reread the sentence; indeed, there are two fallacies in that line of thought, one of which
I specifically addressed in my article you are commenting on: the lifespan issue). Worse,
when he makes claims like that, his data is based on forty year old science–not more recent
(and far more comprehensive) studies and data. And so on.

I could continue, but really you should know better. You should know how to critically
examine claims that seem unusually convenient and are peculiarly not adopted by the wider
medical community. You should know how to tell a good study from a bad one, and a
reliable claim from an unreliable one, and a fallacious argument from a valid one. And
certainly, our moral beliefs should follow from sound logic and unbiased critical thinking.

R E P LY

BOBBIEJA MES • APRIL 4, 2013, 12:00 PM

I am sorry I posted on an old article of yours from 2011, and especially after you made a closing argument. I am
afraid I still disagree and will try to explain why. I am rarely offended when someone criticizes me, and I do the
best with the I.Q. I have been given (which my mother hid from me and said something about “effort”). Saying “I
should know better” means you may have overestimated my abilities!

You gave the example of chickens liking to cuddle close for the justification of crowding tons of chickens into a
large barn, but of course, not all animals like to be crowded, such as pigs (who like to run sometimes believe it
or not), so the chicken example for crowding seemed disingenuine (I may have made up a word there). But we
will stick with chickens. They obviously do not want to cuddle all the time, and have no escape from others.
Moreover, the din of 125,000 chickens in one barn has to be horrendous. Your comments saying we need more
humane conditions are not possible if all people continue to eat meat because with all the mouths to feed, we will
need even more factory farms. Our population necessitated factory farms over the small family farm in the first
place.

You claim that animals do not have self-reflection, yet apes do have self-reflection (see tests on YouTube), and
pigs have an intelligence comparable to a 3 ¾ year old child, so I would think they also have self-reflection
because of their intellect. We have greatly underestimated animal intelligence and are just finding out they
possess many capabilities we did not know about. There’s that language barrier problem.

I will look into this China Study more thoroughly, but I do think the lowest fat diet is best, and when I see
arteries clear up with just a very low fat diet, I find it credible. In regard to health, most “experts” do not read the
China Study correctly. I have linked a rebuttal from Colin T. Campbell to critics. I think he is a little snitty myself,
but I still see the value in the article and the sources at the end. It is from vegsource.com (on the right)
http://www.vegsource.com/news/2010/07/china-study-author-colin-campbell-slaps-down-critic-denise-
minger.html. Dr. McDougall has wonderful articles that again, make sense to me, under “medical info” and “hot
topics” on his website.

I believe your response is a bit of a defense of what you see as your right to eat what you want, because of your
addition of the sentence about enjoyment. One thing I want you to learn is that tastes can change as people
change. I would find milk bitter and dirty tasting now, when I used to guzzle it. I think a roast is nasty looking
and the idea of eating greasy bacon and gooey cheese is, well, nasty. Truly, these foods do not sound like
something I would want to put into my body now. When I first went vegan it was more of a temporary challenge
that I did not think I could keep up. I did not intend to watch factory farm videos and see that I needed to
protest our despicable treatment of animals on earth. It just happened.

You say animals do not know they are being killed, but that is not what former slaughterhouse workers say. Any
animal in the wild runs from danger to save its own life, and animals are petrified from the time they leave their
barn on the trip to the slaughterhouse, down the chute where chickens break more bones, to the shackling
upside down where they lose their bowels and urine because of fear.

Laying an animal down calmly to kill them is deceitful. They put their trust in us, so there is no correct way to kill
an animal. If you substitute your dog, would you think it is fine to kill him a year early? Sure, he may not know he
has one more year, but does that make it okay? Just because we do not believe in God, it does not mean that
we revere others’ lives less. In fact, that one more year of life should be even more important for us to give to
animals. Atheism plus should extend our kindness to other species.

Humane farms are not as they appear, and small farms are adopting methods of the factory farms in order to
compete. The only solution to the tortured lives of animals is for most of us to give up meat and dairy. You may
never see this, but I do. It will not happen in my lifetime, but I am getting in on the ground floor for future
generations to stand on.

Okay, I have said what I felt I needed to say now. Thanks for reading. I hope I do not sound too stupid to
someone like you, but what I wrote makes sense to me, and that is the best I can do. I greatly appreciate you
reading and responding to my comment so quickly.

Looking forward to your upcoming book, so I will try not to respond again to you, so you don’t take up time
with me when you could be working elsewhere!

Barb Noon

R E P LY

RICH ARD CARRIER • APRIL 4, 2013, 5:31 PM

Let’s be honest. You personally do not know what chickens do or don’t like or what their
life is like in the wild (birds congregate in huge noisy flocks all the time; these are not humans,
so what you think is intolerable simply doesn’t apply). So projecting your feelings, desires,
and tolerances on animals is simply fallacious. There are scientific ways to answer these
questions. I approve of pursuing them. That was a key point in my article.

You also ignore my statement regarding animals we don’t eat (like apes), and my concession
that some of those animals have higher cognitive abilities and ought to be protected. So your
remarks on that point are moot. I already addressed them in my article. Meanwhile your
claim that “pigs have an intelligence comparable to a 3 ¾ year old child” is uninformed. You
either don’t know what cognition is (puzzle solving is not self-consciousness; my desktop
computer has the IQ of a child, too) or you’ve been duped by another huckster. Even
newborn babies have cognitive faculties exceeding pigs; three year olds vastly more so (they
have mastered by that age language, theory of other minds, and narrative self-reflection, three
things pigs can never achieve: and yes, we do know this, it’s a scientific fact of the analysis of
both behavior and neuroanatomy; and babies are already developing those three capacities
even in the womb, and most definitely soon after birth, something that never happens in pigs).

You also ignore my remarks about confusing an animal’s experiencing fear with its knowing
what death is (or even what life is). You would do well to re-read my points on that. It is
simply fallacious to confuse fear of harm with fear of death. It is also fallacious to think
animals being scared enough to run from people is harmful. My cat gets scared of me
accidentally all the time, and sometimes deliberately (as when I must corral him to take to the
vet for medical care). I’m not perpetrating any evil in doing that. Animals simply can’t
understand what’s occurring. The most we can do is reduce their anxiety. We can never
eliminate it. As I said in the article, we are under no strong obligation to be any kinder to
animals than nature already is; and yet, we already are (farm animals get medical care;
animals in nature do not), which is a supererogatory good that I support.

There is also no sense in which “deceiving animals” is evil (we have to deceive them all the
time for their own good, and often for our own good, as when we scare away animals from
harming others). Animals have no idea what life or death is. The mere “life” of an animal
therefore has no value. More life adds nothing to an animal. Less life takes nothing away.
Because it cannot ever appreciate the significance of either, not even in principle. What has
value is whether animals experience joy or misery. But that only matters when they are alive.
Hence, as I explain in my article, out of compassion we ought to advocate for humane animal
production. But there is no logically valid step from that to being opposed to killing them.

Finally, your description of farm practices suggests either ignorance or selection bias. It
sounds like you are believing what animal rights activists tell you, rather than actually checking
for yourself what the standard (and, above all, legally required) practices are, especially in the
more humane countries, companies, and states (which should be the bar we aim for in
pushing for reform). My article already addresses the problem of farms that violate the law
(and I am fully in support of more tax dollars to increase the inspection regime for enforcing
those laws, and for expanding and bettering those laws). Criminal activities can never be used
to malign legal activities.

“
Your comments saying we need more humane conditions are not possible if all
people continue to eat meat because with all the mouths to feed, we will need
 even more factory farms. Our population necessitated factory farms over the
small family farm in the first place.

This is two fallacies in one.

(1) Fallacious is the assumption that “more factory farms” = “worse conditions.” Look at the
human labor industry: we can greatly magnify the number of factories while simultaneously
improving the conditions in them (compare American factories c. 1910 with American
factories c. 2010). And when corporations try to dodge this by putting factories in other
countries, we can mobilize to shame them into improving conditions in even them (e.g. Apple,
and we’re not finished with pressuring them to continue in the same direction as recent
events). And so on.

(2) Fallacious is the assumption that “fewer meat eaters” = “better conditions.” To the
contrary, only meat eaters can influence the market–because only they are putting dollars into
the market that meat producers are competing for. If you withdraw from the market, your
dollars have zero influence. Whereas, if you state, for example, that you will only buy meat
from humane producers (and/or simply just do that), then there is actual market incentive for
meat producers to improve conditions in their factories and farms. Producers will go where
the dollars go. They don’t care one whit for dollars they can never get no matter what they
do. Thus vegans are actually harming animals by refusing to “vote” in the meat market for
better treatment of animals.

R E P LY

BARB N OON • APRIL 5, 2013, 4:00 AM

I actually have read the welfare standards, and analyzed them in a blog; and the analysis was not pretty. Here
are the standards. http://www.upc-online.org/welfare/standards_booklet_FINAL.pdf

I do think you have some good points and some good facts, but I find the idea of meat eaters changing the
welfare standards to what I would call acceptable conditions not likely. http://www.humanemyth.org/ I also do
not see the connection with vegans giving up their commitment not to eat meat and eating “humanely raised
meat” instead, because if everyone gave up meat and dairy, there would be no factory farms. (Yes, I remember
you discussing how we need animals for all sorts of products. I do read what you write, but I sometimes have to
read things three times for absorption, and often after I post, I remember something and wish I had clarified my
statements.) I think humans are ingenious enough to find substitutes and continue those products. As an example,
there is a lot we could do with hemp if it were allowed. I’m sure we could come up with substitutes and also do
without products like leather.

The longer we use animals, the less likely we will move away from using animals. If we cut down on our usage
and demand change, our dollars will pressure them to come up with different ideas, and look at all the animals
that will not be suffering from us not eating them.

As an example, when we go to a seafood restaurant, you order humanely caught, raised, etc. fish (whatever
humanely caught or raised is. I know how fish are raised and sorted). I will eat something nonanimal. Who will
keep fish naturally living in our oceans (not human breeding of fish)? Who will keep shrimp from being caught
and allow them to live out their lives, the person who doesn’t eat them or the person who does?

Let’s put the cards on the table. We can still work together, as vegans are actively involved in improving factory
standards, from United Poultry Concerns, to signing petitions, writing letters, to spreading conditions via the
web. We already are large participants in your efforts to eat humanely raised meat, as we believe in any
improvement.

To work together more, I and other vegans will continue to eat vegan and all times,. No matter where I purchase
my groceries or what restaurant I go to, I will eat vegan, and I will sit with an empty plate if no vegan food is
available. You and other meat eaters can eat “humane organic meat” at every meal, no matter where you
purchase your groceries or what restaurant you go to, or sit with an empty plate if it is not available. As I can
only speak for myself, I will fulfill the commitment. Most vegans will sit with an empty plate (although nearly
every restaurant has tomatoes, lettuce, orange juice or something vegan). Will most meat eaters refuse meat if it
is not “humanely raised?” Will you, from this day forth?

R E P LY

RICH ARD CARRIER • APRIL 8, 2013, 3:49 PM

Veganism in the terms you draw is ultimately like voting for a third party: fantasies cannot
govern reality. You are not ever going to convince even a small fraction of the populace to
stop eating meat. So thinking that doing so will help animals is not only vain, it’s death to your
whole own cause. It’s no better than thinking praying for animals will help them. By contrast,
with honest effort, you have a very good shot at convincing a large enough segment of the
population to make humane choices in buying meat (which actually will improve conditions
for animals, as in fact has already happened, demonstrating the point–so we should
continue that course) and a similarly good shot at improving humane husbandry laws and
inspections (as has already happened in many countries, and in some U.S. states, so again
showing it works–so one just needs to keep pushing that ball down the road to make further
improvements).

One problem I have with vegans is not only that they aren’t having any effect (by withdrawing
their vote from the meat market, thus weakening its moral numbers, and thus having in fact no
effect at all on the meat market) but they frequently exaggerate, misinform, or lie about the
facts and thus discredit their own cause, all because of their tendency to believe (or craft)
hyperbole in rationalizing their own personal choices. The worst thing you can do in lobbying
for animal welfare reform is to supply legislators with claims they can easily disprove or can
find no evidence confirming, or to make demands that exceed all reasonable possibility of
being enacted, rather than making fact-claims that can’t be rebutted and demands that could
actually be realized. The industry has a much harder time rebutting the latter. But it will seize
on the former to discredit your entire enterprise. Which makes things harder for people like
me who want, and advocate for, more humane animal husbandry laws.

Reputation is key to success. You have to be known as more honest and reliable than the
industry’s defenders. And that takes time, hard work, and a bitter pill of honesty and
constructive self-directed skepticism. Propaganda, hyperbole, abuse of evidence, and
fallacies should not be employed. That’s the path forward.
 As far as making a difference, all work is gradual. Revisit, again, my example of how we treat
fruit pickers and other agricultural workers in my article. Will you shun even fruits and
vegetables because of widespread injustice and mistreatment and misery in the human labor
market that collects that food for you? Or will you realize you have to work slowly toward
reform in those matters, and that the best way to do that is selecting which producers you buy
from while working to change laws for the better at the state and federal level? To expect
everything to be a utopia before you will buy any of an industry’s products is simply not
logical. Or practical.

R E P LY

P YTH AGOR EAN C R AN K • AP R IL 8, 201 3, 6 :56 P M

BTW
Richard, as an “animal rights” advocate myself I find my views more in line with yours than with the general
vegan population. One day I’ll dig into your cross references to get a better idea of where we diverge and finally
prove you wrong. Until then, thanks for the thoughtful continued posts and commentary.

R E P LY

R OLLI N I A DELI C I OSA • AP R IL 13, 2013, 2:03 P M

@Richard

“
Incorrect. 5-10 percent of the US population has already stopped eating meat.

“ Incorrect. Meat industry sales exceed 150 billion dollars annually. If we were
ridiculously liberal, and attributed 1 billion to persons buying exclusively “humane
meat”, that is 0.7 percent.

If your argument was that only legislation has a real effect on industry, you might
have a leg to stand on.

However, I’m not deluded in the same way you are as to claim that your voting dollar
“has no effect”, even though it would be rather easy to do so.

“
Indeed. So, perhaps you shouldn’t suggest that these animals all currently
live under the more ideal conditions that we advocate for, while representing
 the recent documenting of (genuinely “horrific”) legal, industry-standard
operations as the opposite.

R E P LY

R OLLI N I A DELI C I OSA • AP R IL 12, 2015, 3:23 P M

Formatting correction for parent comment, no consideration necessary:

@Richard

“
You are not ever going to convince even a small fraction of the populace to
stop eating meat.

Incorrect. 5-10 percent of the US population has already stopped eating meat.

“
By contrast, with honest effort, you have a very good shot at convincing a
large enough segment of the population to make humane choices in buying
meat.

Incorrect. Meat industry sales exceed 150 billion dollars annually. If we were ridiculously
liberal, and attributed 1 billion to persons buying exclusively “humane meat”, that is 0.7
percent.

If your argument was that only legislation has a real effect on industry, you might have a leg to
stand on.

However, I’m not deluded in the same way you are as to claim that your voting dollar “has
 no effect”, even though it would be rather easy to do so.

“
Propaganda, hyperbole, abuse of evidence, and fallacies should not be
employed. That’s the path forward.

Indeed. So, perhaps you shouldn’t suggest that these animals all currently live under the more
ideal conditions that we advocate for, while representing the recent documenting of (genuinely
“horrific”) legal, industry-standard operations as the opposite.

R E P LY

BARB N OON • APRIL 24, 2013, 5:54 PM

Richard,

These are just a few paragraphs from the 17 pages I ended up with when I decided to carefully and thoroughly
respond to your article and comments. If you want to read my article, the link is here on my blog (I am known as
Barbara Noon and also Bobbie James):

http://bobbiejamesveganatheist.blogspot.com/

It is quite factual, but since it is so long, take parts of it to respond to, post it, or ignore it! It will be fine with me
if you do not have time to read it, but I just couldn’t cut out any part of the 17 pages!

What follows are some parts of my response:

It is not all right to take animals’ lives unless they are causing harm to you, or it cannot be avoided. Animals
nearly always kill other animals because they are hungry, or some territorial situation; but mainly because they
are hungry. We have an abundance of nonanimal food, so there is no need and no rational excuse to end
animal’s life. Animals were not meant to be separated and confined and genetically altered. No other animal
wears the fur of another. No animal is here to be useful products.

Some animals may never pass the test of being able to know there is a future, but what kind of a test is that for
people to use against animals? Should we perhaps give a test that uses animals’ strengths instead of human
characteristics? We are taking advantage of them by using a human abilities test as a justification to kill them.
Pigs have a very strong sense of smell and can detect scents seven miles away and 25 feet underground. If the
criterion for being allowed to live or be killed is how powerful our noses can smell, pigs would be saved and
humans would be off to the slaughterhouse.

Especially as atheists, we know the value of this one life. This is their one life; how wrong to cut it short and what
a pitiful life we have created for them.

HOW REALISTIC IS HUMANE MEAT?

12 billion animals are killed for food in the U.S. but this is not including the 51 billion sea animals worldwide each
year for American’s consumption. Does anyone really think all these animals will be humanely taken care of,
inspected and respected?

THIRD PARTY IS A MEANINGLESS LABEL TO PEOPLE WHO ALREADY HELP ANIMALS.

Vegans are not a third party. Your claim is, because we do not buy humane meat, we are not helping the drive
away from regular meat or letting meat producers know what we want. Do we really need to purchase a
product to help? Let’s see:

It is better for someone on heroin to use methadone, and methadone is an in-between for them – between heroin
and drug free. I support their use of methadone and have signed petitions to have that and clean needles
supplied. Yet I do not purchase methadone. It is not required that I purchase a product in order to be helpful to
their cause. And the goal is not to have them be on methadone for life; it is to have them become drug free.
Now, let’s do minor substitutions:
It is better for someone on a factory farm to use humane farming, and humane farming is an in-between for them
– between factory farming and freedom. I support their use of humane farming and have signed petitions to have
that and clean conditions. Yet I do not purchase humane meat. It is not required that I purchase a product in
order to be helpful to their cause. And the goal is not to have them become humane meat; it is to have them
become free.

REGARDING COMMENT THAT VEGANS WILL NEVER GROW IN NUMBERS

Only 2% of animals carry the Certified Humane label, when factory farming has been going on since 1927.
Currently, 95% of our eggs still come from battery caged hens, and nearly all sows are still in gestation crates.
We stop eating meat and dairy, we get them out very quickly. We eat “humane meat” and petition for another
foot of space for the pigs, and it takes years upon years and that foot of space can be taken away at any time.

In Missouri, in November 2011, a Puppy Mill ban was enacted so the state would no longer allow puppy mills.
In April, 2012, the state overturned the Puppy Mill ban. This could happen with all the laws we have so slowly
been able to put into place. As the population increases or people stop paying attention and think everything is
humane, the old ways could easily return as we can see from the Puppy Mill example. (In many Amish farms and
puppy mills, dogs are kept stacked in cages in a barn, forced to breed over and over and then shot when they
can no longer breed.)

CERTIFIED HUMANE
If you look at the Certified Humane standards for each animal, you will find out that pigs and chickens never see
the outside of the barn. Pigs have legs, with muscles, and they love to run. How can it be called humane to keep
them penned up?

Certified Humane rules:Cows and/or pigs are castrated without anesthesia, cows are dehorned with a hot iron,
prodded electrically “in emergencies only,” tails are docked with a rubber ring or hot iron. Chickens have the
end of their beaks seared off with a hot machine that also cuts nerve endings and takes a month to heal, but their
beaks are deformed for life. Certified Humane is about the best certification available too.

Certified Humane still keeps the cows pregnant by artificial insemination: The mother cows are restrained in a
contraption while they are impregnated by a farmer sticking his arm all the way in to the cow’s rectum and
grabbing her uterus while inserting a rod with a metal hook through the uterus and artificially inseminating her.
They keep her continuously pregnant in order to get milk out of her. The boys born to her become veal calves,
so the people who drink milk or eat cheese support the veal industry.

Certified Humane has the “new veal regulations,” which gives the meat a light pink flesh because they are
allowed a little movement. How kind to give a youngster less than a yardstick to move in.

Animals have no food for up to 16 hours before slaughter with Certified Humane; their maximum transport time
is 12 hours; and maximum holding time at the slaughter house is 10 hours. Add up the maximum times and that is
38 hours with no food before being killed. What happened to a Last Supper?!

The methods of slaughter must improve, as many miss the bolt and get their eye bolted or the wrong part of their
brain and I have seen blood and goo flood out of cows’ noses at slaughter.
What about the male chicks? Everyone ignores the male chicks! With egg production, boy chicks are not
needed because they are not bred to be meat, so the boy chicks are either ground up, or are thrown in a huge
bin to slowly crush each other to death. And the killing of male chicks happens, whether regular farming, organic
farming or certified humane. UPCOnline.

There is a lot to fix. It might be easier just to stop eating meat.

JUST ONE YEAR OF LIFE?

When you say an animal will not miss one year of life do you tell your readers that we are not cutting off 1 year
of an animal’s life, but cutting off 10 to 20 years of its life with our factory farming?
I cannot find Certified Humane or any Humane meat company address what age the animals are slaughtered.
These are the typical ages they are killed for the typical farm animals under AHA rules:

Broiler hens can live 10-20 years – they are killed at 6 weeks.
Egg laying hens can live 10-20 years – they are killed at 1-2 years.
Dairy cows live 20 years – th ey are killed at 4 years.
Pigs can live 13 years – they are killed at 6 months.
Male chicks can live 10-20 years. They are killed at 1 day.
Veal cows can live 20 years – they are killed at 4 months.
Meat eaters eat babies, toddlers and teenagers.

Nine states have gestation crate laws to give animals a little more room than those crates, but most of the states’
laws do not go into effect until 2019 or 2025 respectively. California is ahead and will go into effect in 2015.
This means 41 states use gestation crates legally, and in those 41, we have the four largest pig producing states
(61% of hogs, come from Iowa, North Carolina, Minnesota and Illinois).
Most people I know say their weight is due to genetics. I found some information interesting and am writing from
memory, but you can google “Tarahumara diabetes” and find a lot on this bject.

The Tarahumara Indians live in rural South America. They can run races up to 400 miles at once and put our
ultramarathoners to shame. Their diet consists of a corn based diet; corn tortillas, beans, veges, very rarely a
small amount of wild meat, fruits and a high carbohydrate low alcoholic beer. They have almost no Cancer,
diabetes, high blood pressure, heart disease. They are called “The people who will live forever.” Their genetic
equivalents are the Pima Indians of Arizona. They have the highest diabetes rate of any group in the world. One
of every two people has diabetes. They are obese with all the diseases of the typical Americans, such as
osteoporosis and Cancer. They eat the high fat, Western American diet and their cholesterol levels reflect it. Yet
these two groups are genetic equivalents! Further, if they take a few Tarahumara Indians and start to feed them
the American high fat diet, their cholesterol levels and blood pressure rise. No, I do not think if I eat like them I
will run 400 miles at once, but this shows the health of a low fat diet, and eating more than a tiny bit of meat is
too much fat for the body.

Again, if you would like to read all 17 pages and my discussion of such topics as the value of animals’ lives, Ag
Gag Laws, the word Phobia, Waste production, “sustainable” fish, hunting, laws, animal intelligence, Proposition
2, Methane, Health, PETA videos and recent investigations, click on this link and the entire discussion will be
there, called something like, “Response to a Meat Eater’s Response to a Vegetarian.”

http://bobbiejamesveganatheist.blogspot.com/

R E P LY

RICH ARD CARRIER • APRIL 26 , 2013, 9 :42 AM

“
It is not all right to take animals’ lives unless they are causing harm to you,
or it cannot be avoided.

Why? You don’t present any argument for this assertion being true.

“
Animals were not meant to be separated and confined and genetically altered.

“Meant” by whom? God? I’m an atheist. Nothing in the universe was “meant” to do or be
anything. We were not “meant” to fly or live with plastic hearts, either. This is simply not a
valid argument for anything.

“
Especially as atheists, we know the value of this one life. This is their one life;
how wrong to cut it short and what a pitiful life we have created for them.

Except that knowing the value of life is the only thing that gives life value–and animals don’t
have that: they do not know the value of life, thus life has no value to them. You can’t
bootstrap your way from there to treating animals the same as people. Animals just aren’t the
same as people.

“
It is better for someone on heroin to use methadone, and methadone is an in-
 between for them – between heroin and drug free. I support their use of
methadone and have signed petitions to have that and clean needles supplied.
Yet I do not purchase methadone.

This is a false analogy.

First, we are not talking about humane production of methadone. If we were, then you would
certainly be advocating that people only buy methadone from factories that humanely
produce it (and only if they did, would humanely produced methadone exist and eventually
out-compete the alternatives). Exactly what I am advocating.

Second, few people consume methadone–this would thus make sense as an analogy to, say,
the production of wearable furs (you might not buy them but you would certainly argue
people should only buy fur produced in humanely run sustainable farms, and only if they did,
would humanely run sustainable farms exist and eventually out-compete the alternatives), but
not meat or other animal products (like oil, tallow, leather, bone meal, etc…I list many others
in my article). If you wanted the analogy to be valid, you would have to imagine a world in
which nearly everyone is on heroine (since nearly everyone consumes dairy at the very least,
which requires animal husbandry, and the majority of the world consumes meat and also uses
animal products extensively–indeed, it is almost impossible that you have not, since animal
products are in everything, from shampoo to automobiles to airplanes, even the fertilizer that
grew the plants you eat). But then you’d realize my argument is correct. You ought to be
voting with your dollars for more humane animal husbandry, not refusing to vote at all.

The rest of your remarks are already addressed in my original article here, or in these
remarks just above.

R E P LY

A N T O N I O • M AY 2 5 , 2 0 1 3 , 5 : 4 4 A M

The moral question here seems to be the question for the quantitative moral value of animal life and how this
value compares to the moral values of goals that imply the killing of an animal.

For instance, if I kill a hostile animal predator in self defense, I am warranted in attributing a higher moral value to
my goal of defending my own life than to the goal of sparing the predator’s life. I might also be warranted in
attributing a higher moral value to the goal of saving the life of humans through medical experiments performed
on animals than to the goal of not killing animals in scientific experiments. (The moral value of an animal’s life of
course also depends (a fortiori) on the sophistication of that animal’s assumed mental capabilities).

You obviously attribute a higher moral value to your goal of eating meat—the only rationally justifiable purpose
being the experience of the pleasure of its taste—compared to your hypothetical goal of not killing animals
without justification.

My question to you: can you give an example of a goal you might have that does not warrant the killing of an
animal, and if so, what makes it different from the goal of eating meat for its taste? Or does your argument that
an animal “does not become anything and has no awareness of being something” imply that its life has no value at
all and, thus, can be ended for any goal whatsoever?

R E P LY

R I C H A R D C A R R I E R • M AY 2 8 , 2 0 1 3 , 6 : 1 4 P M

“
Can you give an example of a goal you might have that does not warrant the
killing of an animal, and if so, what makes it different from the goal of eating
meat for its taste?

Killing for pleasure (sadism). Killing without utility (waste).

I can similarly demarcate conditions where destroying a house or even breaking a rock are
immoral or at minimum superseded by greater goals. So such considerations are not unique
to animals.

R E P LY

R O LLI N I A D ELI C I O SA • JUN E 3, 201 3, 1 :55 P M

@Richard:

You’ve only answered the first part of the question you chose to quote. You’ve subsequently
explained circumstances where waste might not be ideal, but if animals’ lives have no inherent
moral value, then deriving psychological pleasure from killing them (sadism) becomes morally
positive in the same way that deriving nutritional pleasure does.

R E P LY

R IC H AR D C AR R IER • JUN E 3, 201 3, 2:45 P M

“
…deriving psychological pleasure from killing [animals]
(sadism) becomes morally positive in the same way that
deriving nutritional pleasure does.
 That requires having the character trait of deriving pleasure from causing
suffering. That is exactly the opposite of compassion, and since
compassion is necessary to any moral life (indeed, to any non-destructive
pursuit of satisfaction with life), such a pursuit is not compatible with any
logically defensible concept of the moral life.

The reason you failed to see this and thus failed to draw the correct
conclusion from my own viewpoint is that you have straw manned my
position. I have never argued that “animals’ lives have no inherent moral
value,” but that “animals’ lifespans have no inherent moral value.” You
perhaps are trading on an equivocation fallacy between “lives” (as in what
they experience) and “lifespans” (as in how long they experience it). But
either way, your conclusion is logically invalid.

Causing suffering is wrong. But killing does not cause suffering. Even in
people. Thus even for people, killing people is not wrong because it
causes suffering. It therefore must be wrong for some other reason. When
you isolate what that reason is, you will find it is a reason that does not
hold for (by far most other) animals.

There is therefore no logical connection between permissability of causing

death (which does not cause suffering) and permissability of causing
suffering (which by definition does). The grounds for each are separate,
and cannot be conflated as you have done.

R E P LY

R O LLI N I A D ELI C I O SA • JUN E 3, 201 3, 4:05 P M

Sorry Richard, the conflation and strawman seem to be yours. You wrote “killing for
pleasure”, not “causing suffering for pleasure”. And as you’ve made abundantly clear, “killing
does not cause suffering”. People kill animals for pleasure without necessarily having the
character trait of enjoying causing suffering. In fact, this predilection would be required of
your slaughterhouse workers. The conclusion is valid. Deriving psychological pleasure from
killing animals becomes positive in the same way as deriving nutritional pleasure.

R E P LY

R IC H AR D C AR R IER • JUN E 4, 201 3, 8 :59 AM

No, I said:

“
 “
Killing for pleasure (sadism). Killing without utility (waste).

That was in response to your request for “a goal you might have that does
not warrant the killing of an animal.” Sadism is killing for the purpose of
enjoying the suffering of the thing killed. Killing humanely for pleasure
(i.e. specifically keen to reduce or avoid suffering) is wasteful.

The latter would be, for example, a hunter who doesn’t use the animal
they kill for any purpose. The former would be, for example, someone
who sets kittens on fire because its fun.

You ignored the second half of my answer, conflated it into the first half of
my answer, and invented a straw man of my position. Exactly as I said.

Don’t do that.

R E P LY

R O LLI N I A D ELI C I O SA • JUN E 4, 201 3, 1 2:57 P M

“
Killing humanely for pleasure … is wasteful.

Well, there you have it. That is your goal, in your own words.

A hunter not using the body of an animal they kill is not necessarily wasteful. Ecosystems
have myriad uses for carcasses.

I did not ignore the second part of your answer; I mentioned it, specifically, in the response.
And, as we’ve been over, killing would not be a goal for the sadist, though it could be a
completely antithetical consequence of inflicting pain. The imprecision of you phrasing here
is unfortunate, and the source of any fallacies you’re imagining. Exactly as I said.

R E P LY

R IC H AR D C AR R IER • JUN E 5, 201 3, 1 0:1 6 AM

By your reasoning, waste doesn’t exist. Since everything thrown away

gets “used” by the ecosystem.
 That’s nonsense. That’s not how we gauge waste. Waste is taking
something of use to people and instead of using it, throwing it away. A
carcass has myriad uses to the hunter. For the hunter to not use them is
wasteful. If killing an animal humanely for fun doesn’t do any good (by
any human measure…and rotting is generally not doing any good by that
measure), then the hunter is being wasteful.

The bottom line is, you asked for immoral goals in killing animals for
pleasure. I gave two, sadism and waste. I said sadism is an immoral goal.
You agreed. I said waste is an immoral goal. You disagreed and defended
throwing food away.

So to defend your position you were reduced to the sad state of actually
defending the morality of throwing away food.

I, by contrast, did not have to resort to any such astonishing conclusion.

R E P LY

A N T O N I O • M AY 2 5 , 2 0 1 3 , 5 : 5 8 A M

On the matter of consciousness being contingent on a neocortex (or a comparable structure), have you
considered the “Cambridge Declaration on Consciousness”? However, not being an export on the topic myself
and not knowing its scientific community, I cannot estimate the credentials of its proponents. It states:

“
The absence of a neocortex does not appear to preclude an organism from experiencing
affective states. Convergent evidence indicates that non-human animals have the
neuroanatomical, neurochemical, and neurophysiological substrates of conscious states along
with the capacity to exhibit intentional behaviors. Consequently, the weight of evidence
indicates that humans are not unique in possessing the neurological substrates that generate
consciousness. Non- human animals, including all mammals and birds, and many other
creatures, including octopuses, also possess these neurological substrates.

http://fcmconference.org

R E P LY

R I C H A R D C A R R I E R • M AY 2 8 , 2 0 1 3 , 6 : 2 2 P M

Affective states are not self-consciousness. “Affective states” is just scientific jargon for
“emotions.” Likewise even worms can exhibit intentional behaviors. That’s simply not self-
 consciousness either. Note how the paragraph is slyly worded: it says “humans are not unique
in possessing the neurological substrates that generate consciousness,” but doesn’t say if
any animal has all the substrates required for self-consciousness or even what is meant here
by “consciousness” (the inclusion of “all mammals” suggests they mean any awareness of
anything, which even lizards have and even snails to a limited degree; that’s simply not self-
awareness and thus is not what I mean by “consciousness”).

Note that I already responded to that paper here a year ago. See also my remarks here.

R E P LY

A N T O N I O • M AY 2 9 , 2 0 1 3 , 1 2 : 5 0 A M

Richard,

I find this topic interesting not primarily because of its implications for animal welfare but for the criteria that
make a being’s existence a morally valuable thing. So apart from animals and animal welfare, I guess I do not
agree with your criteria that a being has to have a reflective model of itself or desires projected into its future
(like not dying) to be in itself of moral value to us.

In Sense and Goodness without God (5.2.1.1)you write that the most basic morally valuable state of affairs is
the presence of “happiness”.

“
On close analysis, I believe there is only one core value: in agreement with Aristotle and
Richard Taylor, I find this to be a desire for happiness.

I agree and extend happiness to include the absence of suffering that supersedes any happiness it might return.
However, I see no logical argument that would make happiness contingent on any reflective model of self or its
extension into the future.

Happiness, as we both surely agree, reduces in essence to (complex) patterns of brain states that are,
fundamentally, linked to emotions: we “feel” happy or we “feel” pain. Having or achieving a certain self-image is
only one cause of such patterns, and thus happiness. And I agree with you that for humans it is, in contrast to
mere momentary and affective sources of happiness, the most profound source of happiness. But it is only a
cause of happiness and not happiness itself.

It does not logically follow that, thus, all other causes of happiness do not also produce genuine happiness, that is
brain states that are synonymous with happiness. It also does not follow that momentary happiness is “less”
happiness. Because all happiness is momentary: it is only present when we feel it, that is, when we have the right
brain state. Hence, happiness is not diminished by the fact that it only exists momentarily. This is especially true
for other sentient beings where other sources of happiness, like the company of others or the mere absence of
suffering, might produce happiness for them as profound as the happiness that humans gain from meaning and
self-development. Why should their respective brain states be fundamentally different from the brain states that
we have because of satisfaction with our self image?

If I destroy an animal, I destroy the potential for happiness in the same way as I destroy the potential for
personhood when I kill an infant human. Consequently, both the existince of both beings ought to be morally
relevant, although not to the same degree, scince we value happiness and personhood.

In this comment you wrote:

“
And if you never reflected on your future (or past or present self) and were incapable of
reflecting on your future (or past or present self) and had no desire to reflect on your future (or
past or present self) and nothing would ever change this (no development, learning, or
impetus), then your life would have no value (beyond what value it may have to other people,
but that’s not the issue here).

It is true that animals cannot achieve all properties of personhood to the same degree as humans do. Hence, if
we value personhood, greatly and I agree that we ought, an animal will always have less value than a human(-
like) person. But that does not logically imply that an animal has no value, even to itself, since it still produces
genuine happiness, and happiness ought to be the most fundamental moral good.

Furthermore, your position would imply that we ought to kill animals for no other reason than to prevent their
potential suffering. Since you value the absence of animal suffering but not the presence of animal existence,
killing animals would only improve the state of affairs. Your analogy of destroying other objects, like houses, is
flawed because it is not the destruction of the house in itself that is morally reprehensible but the violation of
desires (e.g. economical or emotional ones) of other people attached to that house.

You seem to commit the same fallacy that you attribute to others: you project human criteria for happiness, self-
worth, self-respect, self-image (see SaGwG 5.2.1.3) to animals, thereby disregarding that the animals might have
a different set of criteria for happiness but might produce happiness nonetheless.

I do not need to argue that the value of animal life supersedes the value of the pleasure of meat. Your assesment
that valuing animal existence is irrational because of a lack of self in animals seems irrational to me on the basis of
your moral theory.

R E P LY

R I C H A R D C A R R I E R • M AY 2 9 , 2 0 1 3 , 6 : 4 6 P M

If you actually read Sense and Goodness without God, then you know I define happiness in
that context (it’s on the very next page from the one you quote: section V.2.1.2, pp. 316-
20), and it isn’t what you are talking about. My words:

“
 “
By happiness I do not mean mere momentary pleasure or joy, but an abiding
contentment, a persistent, underlying sense of reverie that makes life itself
worth living, in the absence of which life becomes shallow, unsatisfying, and
ultimately meaningless. As David Myers puts it, real happiness means
“fulfillment, well-being, and enduring personal joy”…

Animals can’t have that. Which is why they can’t engage in moral reasoning: they lack
comprehension of the very goal that moral behavior exists to pursue. This is also why life has
no value to animals. Animals cannot comprehend things like the difference between having a
future and not having a future and their relative value. Adding more years to an animal’s life
adds nothing to the animal (it can add to an animal’s owner’s happiness, but the animal itself
is oblivious to having gained anything and could not comprehend the significance of having
instead lost it, nor can it ever develop that understanding…again, exempting perhaps certain
rare animals on my list of animals with higher cognition that we don’t eat, the most prominent
such animal being us).

“
If I destroy an animal, I destroy the potential for happiness in the same way
as I destroy the potential for personhood when I kill an infant human.

Except personhood is vastly more valuable than the only pleasures animals can experience,
and infinitely more valuable than an animal’s “happiness” in the sense I define it above (the
only sense that makes persons vastly more valuable than animals), since animals experience
zero happiness in that sense, while persons can experience an abundant quantity of it (and
any finite quality is infinitely greater than zero, since zero multiplied by any finite number is still
zero, thus even infinitely immortal animals gain no benefit in this measure over other animals,
much less people).

This is what I am talking about. Mere pleasure does not make any life valuable–as if sitting in
a tube, lobotomized and hopped up on heroine for eternity could ever be a valuable
existence…it would have no value at all, it would be meaningless and pointless and a life no
self-conscious person would rationally choose. Yet that is an animal. What makes life
valuable is the awareness of life and what it can bring. Since animals neither have that nor the
potential for it, their lives have no more value than a lobotomized man in a tube hopped up on
heroine for eternity. But like that man, they can still be made to suffer, and that still matters.
But death does not cause suffering. It can only cause loss, and only of what one
comprehends (because in the domain of experience, what one does not comprehend, one
never had to begin with).

“
But that does not logically imply that an animal has no value, even to itself…
Animals have no sense of self. They therefore cannot have value “to themselves.” The very
idea of understanding that something has value is not available to animals (except those very
few, like us). They can value a thing, in the sense of desiring it. But they cannot comprehend
that a thing is valuable. And even though they can value a thing, they still cannot value that
which is beyond their comprehension. And a future life, a continued existence of themselves
as individual beings, is beyond their comprehension. Life thus has no value to them, in the
way it has value to us. We understand what existing means and thus what continuing to exist
means. We are aware of ourselves doing both. And that, and that alone, makes human life
valuable. Take that away, and even the prospect of it, and human life would again have no
more value than a snail’s or a tree’s (except whatever value they had to others, but that’s
moot here).

There is nothing “irrational” about this as you charge; to the contrary, any other view of the
matter is irrational, in the mere sense of having no logically valid basis.

“
Furthermore, your position would imply that we ought to kill animals for no
other reason than to prevent their potential suffering. Since you value the
absence of animal suffering but not the presence of animal existence, killing
animals would only improve the state of affairs.

That would be wasteful, and would be damaging to the ecosystem, and would deprive us of
the available joys of sharing vicariously in animal pleasures (and would in turn promote
wasteful, ecosystem-damaging, and pleasure-depriving behaviors and attitudes). So we only
follow your reasoning when it actually applies, e.g. killing animals when necessary to put
them out of their misery (as we will do en-miserated dogs, horses, cats, etc.), or when they
have no more value to anyone (euthanasia, consumption) or are a threat to the environment
as vermin (culling, exterminating).

“
Your analogy of destroying other objects, like houses, is flawed because it is
not the destruction of the house in itself that is morally reprehensible but the
violation of desires (e.g. economical or emotional ones) of other people
attached to that house.

That is precisely my point. That is indeed the only reason we refrain from gratuitously killing
animals. It’s just that the specific reasons we value animals can differ from houses and rocks
 etc., but that is not a relevant distinction. The relevant matter is that animals only have value
to us. Animals cannot comprehend the value of anything, even when they value it in the crude
sense of desiring. Humans, by contrast, can comprehend that something is valuable (rather
than merely feeling desire for it). We thus represent the first instance in earth history of the
existence of an awareness of value, which is what moral behavior is based on (and again why
almost all animals, even smart ones, cannot engage in moral reasoning).

It is thus being aware that life has value that alone gives life value. If you can never and could
never be aware that life has value, your life could never have value–except to someone else
who is aware of your value. That’s simply the fact of the matter. Values exist in no other
sense.

R E P LY

A N T O N I O • M AY 3 0 , 2 0 1 3 , 1 1 : 5 0 A M

“
If you actually read Sense and Goodness without God, then you know I define happiness in that
context (it’s on the very next page from the one you quote: section V.2.1.2, pp. 316-20), and it
isn’t what you are talking about.

Indeed, i did. But you missed my point. I wrote:

“
Happiness, as we both surely agree, reduces in essence to (complex) patterns of brain states
that are, fundamentally, linked to emotions: we “feel” happy or we “feel” pain. Having or
achieving a certain self-image is only one cause of such patterns, and thus happiness. And I
agree with you that for humans it is, in contrast to mere momentary and affective sources of
happiness, the most profound source of happiness. But it is only a cause of happiness and
not happiness itself.

In essence, meaning and self-image are not happiness itself, but mere sources of that lead to brain states that we,
as naturalists, identify as synonymous with happiness; or more precisely, with the emotion of happiness. For
humans, meaning and self-image are one of the most profound sources of happiness. I agree with that. But that
does not imply that animals cannot achieve qualitatively equivalent brain states of happiness caused by other
sources than these.

A cat might be as “happy” when it shares the company of other cats as a human that is aware of her fully fulfilled
life. Who knows? As both share comparable neurological fundaments, both might have comparable brain states
of happiness in these situations. Our current body of body makes this quite probable, as it is more likely than the
inverse hypothesis: that animals are not capable of sharing qualitatively equivalent emotional states, such as
profound happiness (again: not necessarily from the same causes as human happiness), in spite of sharing the
same atomic neurological processes (although not the same high-level brain structure and complexity).

The question is: is it really happiness that you value most or the more complex concept of “human happiness
caused by meaning and self-image”. But if that is the case and we, hence, discard happiness as a basic emotion
caused by a pattern of brain states, why then bother with animal suffering? Suffering, like happiness, is an
emotion associated with patterns of brain states. It is neither necessarily reflective nor a persistent concept.

This is just inconsistent. Either basic emotions do matter for moral considerations, but then we can’t consider
suffering but discard happiness (as explained abovve, or they are not in itself sufficient, but then why do we care
about human suffering?

R E P LY

R I C H A R D C A R R I E R • M AY 3 1 , 2 0 1 3 , 2 : 2 2 P M

“
In essence, meaning and self-image are not happiness itself, but mere sources
of that lead to brain states that we, as naturalists, identify as synonymous
with happiness

Not “mere sources”; the only source. As I explained previously. At length.

“
But that does not imply that animals cannot achieve qualitatively equivalent
brain states of happiness caused by other sources than these.

If those states cannot be appreciated, then the achievement of those states is meaningless.
Like the “happiness” of a lobotomized man in a tube hopped up on heroin.

“
…that animals are not capable of sharing qualitatively equivalent emotional
states, such as profound happiness (again: not necessarily from the same
causes as human happiness)
 Those other animals are not capable of achieving “profound happiness” in any sense relevant
to the human recognition and appreciation of “profound happiness,” the only sense that
makes life worth living and meaningful. Meaning only comes from meaning-generating minds.
Those other animals don’t have meaning-generating minds. Therefore their lives are incapable
of having meaning…to them. (Meaning to us, but that’s again moot here.) Therefore, there is
no meaningful value to their living more days or fewer. (Apart from what we get out of it, but
again that’s moot here.) Whereas we do generate meaning and thus our lives do have
meaning to us, and therefore our lives do not require an exterior source of concern to be
valuable.

“
Suffering, like happiness, is an emotion associated with patterns of brain
states. It is neither necessarily reflective nor a persistent concept.

That makes no difference to whether suffering/joy are things we care about not
causing/causing.

Because death does not cause suffering. Therefore, that we vicariously feel the pain of
animals through our compassion and thus care about whether they suffer, makes no
difference to whether we should care about killing them painlessly. Killing is not wrong
because it causes suffering (because it doesn’t cause suffering). Killing is wrong because it
destroys something valuable…a consciously aware person, with an identity and a complex
world evolving in their minds (or the emergence of same). Other animals do not have that
property…the only property that can logically make killing wrong. Because it’s the only
property that can ever make life worth anything. It’s the only thing that can make the
difference between pursuing a life worth living, and being a lobotomized man in a tube
hopped up on heroin. The latter has no value at all. And cannot. So, too, animal life. (Again,
apart from what value it has to us.)

R E P LY

B A R B N O O N • M AY 3 0 , 2 0 1 3 , 7 : 2 0 P M

I disagree. Any time one animal looks at another animal, it adds interest to each animal’s life, and therefore, adds
value, whether they are aware of the meaning of value or not. An animal adds value to his life and adds interest
every time he smells himself or feels the air on his skin and likes the feeling, whether he knows it is himself or not.

I understand very clearly your argument/position that animals “add no value” and do not know they are about to
die because they do not have a sense of self. I do not agree that they add no value, but if they do not add value
and do not understand death, it is especially devious and deceitful to cut their lives short because they do not
know better. It takes advantage of them in the worst possible way; by using their innocence and their lack of
intellect against them. This is not taking the high road morally and I think it makes atheists look bad when they
figure out a rationale to be able to take an animal’s life and to say they have no worth. When you said, “I’m an
atheist” it came off as an excuse for you to have no morals. Richard, I am an atheist too, and I know we both
have morals. You have just chosen a position to justify an immoral way of life (the factory farm to mouth system)
that must be changed. Of course animals have worth to each other and if we catch a glimpse of them, they have
worth to us if we appreciate them. Our ability to turn off our feelings had some evolutionary benefits, but is now
being used against unsuspecting, innocent, weaker beings.

Poor sheep. They can recognize at least 50 faces of other sheep, and mourn losses of other sheep, but can’t
pass the mirror test. They are therefore, expendable. But what if there were one sheep that was smarter than the
others and could recognize himself? Do we really think all sheep have the same intelligence? This has happened
with horses. There is one horse who is quite smart and has passed the identity test. If there is one horse that has
passed, there are probably others out there who have not been tested that could pass. What about sheep then?
What if we just haven’t tested enough sheep? They are so close, and their brains are so similar to human beings;
there might be an Einstein sheep amongst them. I think it warrants giving up lamb and horse meat, just to be sure.

There is no way the meat and dairy industries can ever be called humane with any kind of honesty. The label
“humane” is like “intelligent design.” It sounds fantastic, but right below the surface is just the opposite of the
definition of the word. From family separation, to grinding up male chicks, to painful procedures, crowded
quarters of pigs and calves whose legs should be allowed to run, to shackling hens upside down which is very
painful to their insides due to their anatomy, to stun baths that paralyze but do not take away any pain, to the
time it takes to die and the cries of the animals, right up until they get cut up alive in some cases – nearly every
part of the life of a farm animal is horrendous. Asking people to partake in this fantasy that meat will ever be
humane is just contributing to more deaths, both animal and human.

On the topic of health I reiterate that only if your total cholesterol is below 150 can you be heart attack free
(unless there is a defect), and if you add meat to the typical American “healthy diet” your cholesterol will most
likely be above 150, and there will be risk of a heart attack. The claim that you can eat some meat and dairy and
you will live into your 70s and 80s because of modern medicine does happen, but does not jibe with the
obituaries of “healthy people’ dying in their 40s and 50 of clogged arteries from a lifetime accumulation of fats
from their meat and dairy diets, or the countless diabetics in America. As long as doctors tell patients they have a
clean bill of health with cholesterol at 200, there will be people like a woman at my work two months ago whose
sister had a heart attack at a young age right after getting that clean bill of health from her doctor. It’s a crap
shoot if you eat meat.

In an earlier post you claimed that you “scared your cat all the time, by accident” and the reason for the
comment was to brush off the fact that animals are frightened by the horrible treatment at farms, in being
transported, falling together in crowded trucks, and then sent to watch other animals they know die while they
wait in line. Your point was that animals do not fear death because they do not know they are going to die, but
whether they do or not, we should put animals in such fearful conditions. Imposing fear on an animal is not kind,
nor humane. I know you claim they will “streamline” slaughterhouses in the future, but I do not see any of this as
ever being humane. The only reason these animal are being sent to die is because there is no one who loves them
enough to keep them alive. They have no choice as they have been imprisoned and are our slaves. Tell me how
that is humane. A pig is the same as a cat – the only difference in their lifestyles is that someone loves the cat and
gives the captive cat a better life. If you were the animal about to be killed by a human, you would wish the
human would spare your life and give you a good life. I know that is speaking in human terms, but if we say they
don’t understand so they don’t value their own lives, we are doing them a disservice because if they wanted to
end their own lives they would stop eating. Okay, that’s my sick humor, but truly, given the evolutionary will to
live, do you really think these animals want to live dreadfully sad and painful lives and then be killed at a young
age? I am wondering why it is so difficult to see and do what is best for animals and keep “what is best for
humans” out of the picture. I am also wondering why this is seen as wrong, when caring for others is how all our
lives improve.

It pains me to think that others value their plate of death so much as to take a stance of killing beings not so far
down the evolutionary tree and can not see the worth, value, beauty and personality of a pig, cow, sheep,
chicken, turkey, fish, or goat – alive.

R E P LY

R I C H A R D C A R R I E R • M AY 3 1 , 2 0 1 3 , 3 : 0 7 P M

“
Any time one animal looks at another animal, it adds interest to each
animal’s life, and therefore, adds value, whether they are aware of the
meaning of value or not.

That makes no logical sense. By that logic, when my computer’s object-seeking web cam
looks at another computer, it adds interest to that computer, and therefore, adds value.

No, sorry. If you are not aware of something’s value (and can never be), it does not have any
meaningful value to you. A world with just animals in it and no self-aware beings would be a
meaningless world, as meaningless as a world with only plants in it. Or rocks. Except insofar
as outside observers (like us) assigned it meaning, and thus value.

“
…it is especially devious and deceitful to cut their lives short because they do
not know better.

How can it be deceitful when there is no knowledge to be falsely communicated to the animal
about this? No false belief = no deception has occurred. An animal has no comprehension of
a future for itself. So killing it cannot even in principle “deceive” it about that.

And that is, indeed, the very distinction I’m talking about. Making a person think (note the
word think) they’ll get to go on living, and then killing them, is deceitful. Precisely because
they were conscious enough to have held a false belief about their future existence. And that
is precisely what makes human lives valuable (and thus taking them, wrong; barring self
defense etc.).

“
 “
It takes advantage of them in the worst possible way…

Worse than what?

There is nothing bad about it. Since their future lives have no value to them, they are not
losing anything of value to them. Likewise if we employ them in labor or other functions (such
as for our pleasure and entertainment, as in the case of pets), we are “taking advantage of
them,” yet so long as we see reasonably to their welfare, there is nothing bad about doing
that. They aren’t capable of knowing anything bad is occurring; and nothing in fact is. There is
no difference between our using them, and nature using them…except we use them
intelligently and can do so with care, whereas nature does neither.

“
…by using their innocence and their lack of intellect against them.

Against what? They have no interests that we are acting “against,” except to contentedly live,
be fed, occasionally reproduce, and die painlessly. Interests we in fact act in favor of (or
ought to, as I argue).

And there is no intelligible sense in which they are “innocent,” since they are categorically
incapable of the attributes of guilt or innocence, having no comprehension of what they are
doing or what its consequences are. There are no “malevolent” cows out to kill children for
fun; and such a concept is impossible, unless you bestowed on cows human-level awareness
of their intentions and the consequences of their actions. Cows can no more be “innocent”
than trees or rocks can.

Things like this are what suggest to me that you are anthropomorphizing animals, attributing to
them the properties of people. The very thing I warned against in the article you are
responding to.

“
You have just chosen a position to justify an immoral way of life (the factory
farm to mouth system) that must be changed.

To be more accurate, I am arguing that it isn’t an immoral way of life. Just like abortion isn’t
immoral or eating pork or drinking alcohol or selling sex. Because there is nothing identifiably
immoral about it, once we sweep away all the false or meaningless claims (like that animals
are “innocent” of anything in any morally relevant sense or that they have a conscious
“interest” in living longer).

“
Our ability to turn off our feelings had some evolutionary benefits, but is now
being used against unsuspecting, innocent, weaker beings.

Notice how you show no respect for my arguments. I do not turn off my feelings at all and
specifically argue they drive me to be morally concerned for animal welfare. I cannot have
any valid feelings about killing an animal because it causes no suffering or loss to the animal.
You then translate that into me turning off all my feelings and acting against what animals
“want.”

That’s a straw man, and an ad hominem. My feelings are quite intact, thank you. I care about
animals and have said so repeatedly. But that does not justify caring whether they live more
days or fewer, a distinction that has no meaning to them, and no value to them they can
understand. Do not conflate the fact that I see no harm in painless death for an animal, with
“turning off my feelings” regarding the suffering of animals.

“
But what if there were one sheep that was smarter than the others and could
recognize himself?

You mean, could build a sense of self, with a narrative memory, and comprehend the value of
living? Then we would assign them to the same status I have done to apes, dolphins, et al.
We would then not eat them. Because that is precisely what it is that makes life worth
anything, and thus makes killing any kind of wrong.

“
Do we really think all sheep have the same intelligence?

Moot point. We know they do not have the brain architecture to build a sense of self, with a
narrative memory, and comprehend the value of living. And we know that no sheep do. If
you ever find one, let us know. But ditto unicorns and dragons. You cannot base moral
conclusions on scientifically implausible maybes. That is no more legitimate than Pythagoras
morally condemning the consumption of beans because they “might” contain human souls.
Let’s stick with real world facts, please.

“
What about sheep then? What if we just haven’t tested enough sheep? They
are so close, and their brains are so similar to human beings.

Nowhere near similar enough to be relevant here.

99% of mouse genes turn out to have analogues in humans. So similar. Yet meaningless.

Facts have to be relevant to pertain in moral decision making.

“
…there might be an Einstein sheep amongst them.

No more likely than sheep that fly.

Let’s stick to science, please. Not fanciful fictions.

“
There is no way the meat and dairy industries can ever be called humane with
any kind of honesty.

Then either you don’t know the facts, or you have wildly unrealistic ideas of what “humane”
means.

My article already addresses this tack. You are now just ignoring what I’ve already written.

Likewise when you start in on health arguments and so on. Already addressed in my article.

“
Imposing fear on an animal is not kind, nor humane.
Unless its necessary or unavoidable.

All we have to do is do it less than nature would if we set them free and we’re in the moral
positive column. The less we do from there then simply the better.

“
If you were the animal about to be killed by a human, you would wish the
human would spare your life and give you a good life. I know that is speaking
in human terms, but if we say they don’t understand so they don’t value their
own lives, we are doing them a disservice because if they wanted to end their
own lives they would stop eating.

Here you are definitely anthropomorphizing. Animals don’t have this knowledge and cannot.
If they did then we would be treating them differently. So it makes no sense to talk about
what we would do “if” they did. That only matters when they do. But they don’t. So let’s
stick with reality. Please.

“
It pains me to think that others value their plate of death so much as to take
a stance of killing beings not so far down the evolutionary tree and can not
see the worth, value, beauty and personality of a pig, cow, sheep, chicken,
turkey, fish, or goat – alive.

Which tells me this is all just about emotion for you, an emotion based not on facts but (as we
have seen) anthropomorphizing fictions and false thoughts about animals. Morality cannot be
based this way. If we allowed it to be, all manner of false moralities could be justified, simply
because someone is “pained to think” about the awful fate of fetuses or beans or sacred trees
or holy rocks or whatever it is whose destruction they want to condemn because the
worldview they have cultivated in their head (without regard for reality) bestows on these
things special thoughts and value they don’t objectively have.

I happen to think keeping an animal alive because you appreciate its beauty and vicariously
sharing its experiences is perfectly valid (as also for ecological and public pleasure reasons,
e.g. nature preserves). But you don’t get to decide how other people feel about their animals,
and you don’t own their animals. By the same logic, keeping a tree alive because you
appreciate its beauty and the enjoying of its existence is perfectly valid (as also for ecological
and public pleasure reasons, e.g. nature preserves). But that by no means justifies you
condemning the cutting down of all trees by anyone anywhere.

You can only break this analogy by attributing thoughts and values to animals that animals are
scientifically incapable of. And that’s a religion. Not reality.
 R E P LY

BAR B N OON • JUN E 2, 201 3, 6 :46 AM

I know you are an advocate of animal welfare and like animals, but criticizing those who kill no animals at all
makes no sense, especially since most of those who promote humane meat do not eat it all the time, and small
farms are still a business with most animals on sanctuaries having been rescued from small farms.

I used the sheep analogy simply because in the past, people have underestimated animals’ abilities to feel
emotions and pain and have abused them, including vivisection to watch their innards while they screamed in
pain; and people laughed it off in the usual way humans can ignore what they do not wish to feel.

People thought the horse was dumb and underestimated its intelligence; yet a horse has passed the self-
recognition test. We are still grinding horses up for animals and human consumption. I have tried to keep videos
off of your page, as interested people can Google for themselves, but I will put this one. This is a video of a
horse showing self-awareness. If you listen to what is being said, it will be very clear he recognizes himself in the
mirror because of where he “points,” and because he does not try to protect his owner from the “other horse.”
His abilities have been verified and he is in the Guinness Book of World Records. My point is, if he can self-
identify, there may be other horses with the same ability, because how many are tested?

You claim over and over that death is painless. Yes, once you are totally unconscious or once you are dead, I
am sure you are right, but the process of death for animals on farms is one of a long torture. I have described
some of it before. How are you killing your animals in a painless manner? The stun bath given to chickens does
not take away any pain – it simply paralyzes the animals. According to Dr. Neville G. Gregory (Expert –
Applied Animal Welfare Aspects, Royal Veter College, England), slicing an animal’s throat can take from 4 to 8
minutes for the animal to die. (That encompasses most slaughterhouse deaths and the killing cones on local farms
advertised as “humane.”) The typical method of most animal deaths is to cut the arteries and let the animal’s own
heart pump out his own blood. These animals can be fully conscious and in tremendous pain depending on
whether both arteries are cut or just one, and whether one jugular is hit or both. Think about those swinging
chickens in line for the blade.
You say we only need to make their lives slightly better than they were in the wild. That is like working toward a
D- grade. Truly, I know you would like more than that, and are just trying to be factual. But I cannot be satisfied
with a D- and am working toward pet status, or that A grade.

Your article, “Meat Not Bad” encourages people not to feel guilty about killing animals. I think they should
watch current slaughterhouse videos and then see if they feel any guilt.

What bothers me is your idea that animals can feel desire, but since they do not know it is them, it is fine to kill
them. Next time you go up to a young dog and it runs excitedly to you, wagging his tail, jumping all around, and
then sits and closes his eyes when you pet him and wants more and more, showing more emotion and enjoyment
than most humans when someone comes in a room or strokes our hair, please wonder why it is fine to take
away that pleasure just because that animal does not apparently know himself. This is why I mentioned the sheep
recognizing 50 faces of other sheep: I do not think the self-recognition award is important in them valuing their
lives, even if it is in relation to others – they’re feeling it and value those feelings.

I will continue to donate money and my time to my local animal sanctuary, whose animals were rescued in
starving conditions from local “family farms.” You and I both can work on getting animals that extra foot of
space, and hopefully more, and maybe some anesthetic during castration on the farms; me from letters and
petitions, you from buying humane meat hopefully every meal that you consume meat. I will continue to abstain
from any meat and dairy and thereby save all those male chicks from being ground up alive that are ignored in
these conversations as they often are not totally killed and have anything but a painless death, and all the cows
who are hit incorrectly with the bolt gun which causes tremendous pain, and I will not be a part of any animal
deaths for my own “pleasure.” I see only goodness and helpfulness in what I do, and I see only goodness and
helpfulness if a person switches from regular meat to humane meat. Once again, we can work together.

Richard, I feel I have given a full opinion yet kept most of my posts as factual as I could.I do not need to say
any more, so I will end my posts on this topic. This has been a good discussion.

Barb

R E P LY

R IC H AR D C AR R IER • JUN E 3, 201 3, 1 :1 1 P M

“
I know you are an advocate of animal welfare and like animals, but
criticizing those who kill no animals at all makes no sense, especially since
most of those who promote humane meat do not eat it all the time, and small
farms are still a business with most animals on sanctuaries having been
rescued from small farms.

No one gets a free pass. Bad arguments deserve to be called out. The more so when they
are used to criticize others themselves. The more so still when they are used in attempts to
persuade people to adopt the conclusions.
So what makes no sense is claiming it makes no sense to call out bad arguments. Not the
other way around.

And here you are again relying on anecdote and pseudoscience instead of actual science:
Really? An amateur video of a single unscientific, uncontrolled experiment in a world well
aware of Hans the Clever Horse? You are actually taken in by this? Let’s use real, quality
science to inform our conclusions, please.

You seem to be unaware of the limitations of the experiment even when properly conducted,
e.g. almost any trainable animal can be taught to react to images of itself in a mirror any way a
trainer desires; and self-recognition does not entail self-model, e.g. mammals can recognize
their own scent, that is in fact the purpose of scent-marking their territory, yet it has no
connection at all with self-awareness, and likewise social animals can react to self-images in
ways that appear self-recognizing but are in fact attempts at social interaction, and the video
you linked to looks exactly like the horse is reacting to its own image as another horse, not as
itself, e.g. attempting nose-to-nose contact as a sign of friendship, the most common form of
social greeting among horses.

“
You claim over and over that death is painless. Yes, once you are totally
unconscious or once you are dead, I am sure you are right, but the process of
death for animals on farms is one of a long torture.

No, it’s not. I’ve addressed this in the article already. You either have your facts wrong or
you are using a hugely unrealistic definition of “torture.”

“
The typical method of most animal deaths is to cut the arteries and let the
animal’s own heart pump out his own blood.

That’s not typical. It’s kosher and halal. I would consider voting to outlaw the practice as
inhumane (only the Jewish and Muslim lobbies sustain it). But it’s not “long torture”; it’s
barely even torture in the sense of agonizing. In fact, loss of blood pressure is fast and almost
immediately results in unconsciousness (it results in inadequate pressure to maintain nutrient
supply to cells and therefore brain function). And that’s a well-established fact of physiology.

Again, please base your conclusions on science.

“
 “
What bothers me is your idea that animals can feel desire, but since they do
not know it is them, it is fine to kill them.

It only bothers you because you have an overly emotional attachment to animals that causes
you to keep anthropomorphizing them and rationalizing your distaste for killing them by
ignoring the scientific facts of animal physiology and slaughter and projecting your feelings on
others.

That is religion, not science or reality. A belief based on scientifically false superstitions,
allowing emotion to trump reason, is not commendable.

“
…please wonder why it is fine to take away that pleasure just because that
animal does not apparently know himself.

That’s a question for you. If you want a specific animal to continue experiencing that
unreflective pleasure, you are welcome to. That produces enjoyment for you. You do it for
your pleasure as much as theirs. But it does not place any obligation on you to preserve that
pleasure. There is simply no logical reason to. They do not appreciate it. They are not even
capable of appreciating it. And there is nothing intrinsically good about it, apart from how it
makes you feel.

Thus, wonder, for example, why it is fine to take away the pleasure of a lobotomized man in
a tube hopped up on heroin just because he is not self-aware, and you’ll understand why it is
fine to do the same to animals, which are in the same state: experiencing pleasure but
incapable of appreciating the significance or value of that, and incapable of ever associating it
with any sense of self or existence. It’s just one pointless pleasure moment after the next.
Meaningless.

Animals certainly have personalities and feelings and engage in social interactions and learn
things (like who is a friend and who is a threat) but they are still not aware of the point or
value of any of this, and never will be. It is literally meaningless to them. It can only have
meaning to you.

“
I will continue to donate money and my time to my local animal sanctuary,
whose animals were rescued in starving conditions from local “family
farms.”
 Which is perfectly fine. It brings you happiness and hopefully reduces active misery in the
world and increases pleasure in other people besides yourself. But do not confuse this with a
moral obligation. Do not confuse euthanizing or culling cats or deer (for the good of the local
ecosystem, for example) with snuffing out human babies (much less adults). They simply are
not the same thing. And never will be. Likewise the eating of farm animals.

“
You and I both can work on getting animals that extra foot of space, and
hopefully more, and maybe some anesthetic during castration on the farms;
me from letters and petitions, you from buying humane meat hopefully every
meal that you consume meat.

Certainly. And I hope you do as much for the humans in the same circumstances (fruit
pickers, cabbage harvesters, and other agricultural workers), whom you rely on to feed you,
yet who often suffer in miserable conditions for shockingly low pay. Indeed, most animals we
eat have full health care. The workers who gather the vegetables and fruit you eat don’t even
have that.

R E P LY

A N T O N I O • JUN E 4, 201 3, 2:46 P M

“
Those other animals are not capable of achieving “profound happiness” in any sense relevant
to the human recognition and appreciation of “profound happiness,” the only sense that makes
life worth living and meaningful. Meaning only comes from meaning-generating minds.

Here I simply disagree and take a more reductionist standpoint on moral ontology. The “atoms” of my moral
ontology are not “meaning” but desires of conscious beings which are a class of patterns of brain states. Meaning
reduces to one instance of such a pattern class exemplified by human brains. If we morally appreciate certain
states of affairs over others, it is ultimately a result of fulfilled desires that are implied by those states of affairs. As
humans, we desire, among other things, the perception of a meaningful life and social goodness. But there is no
scientific evidence indicating, that animals cannot perceive a comparable qualia of desire fulfillment. Indeed, it is
certainly more probable that they can.

In the end, desire fulfillment caused by the perception of meaning is not different from a desire fulfillment caused
by things that are more trivial by human standards. Both are momentary perceptions of positive emotions. It
does not matter that you project meaning onto a “plan of life” that involves yourself, your past, present, and
future. In the end, the value you attach to this reduces to the momentary positive emotion caused by your
perception of that plan. In that moment, your profound desire to live a good life is being perceived as fulfilled.
Hence, you feel happiness. And as you assess that this is part of human nature and thus generalizable, you
declare such state of affairs morally valuable.

If I would kill you, nothing more would be lost to you than to an animal. You as well as the animal would simply
cease to perceive the emotion of desire fulfillment. The cause of that emotion of desire fulfillment does not
matter. It does not matter if it is a plan of life that extends in time, because the perception of that plan is bound to
the very moment in which it is perceived. I would simply have to make sure that you do not know that I am
going to kill you and, thus, feel threatened. Thus, on a consequently reductionist position, the criteria of
momentary perception cannot be of moral relevance. It also cannot matter if you feel a certain desire right now
or not. Otherwise I would be warranted to kill you whenever you do not feel the desire to be alive. It matters
that you would manifest the desire not to be harmed through the emotion of fear of harm.

Furthermore, I do not see how your analogy of a lobotomized person adds anything to an argument. On a
naturalistic, reductionist worldview, it is a fact that brain states representing qualia are “the ultimate thing” that
makes up conscious desires. How an external person judges their causes does nothing to their perception by the
conscious being. The lobotomized person in a tube simply is as happy as a fulfilled person, no matter what that
other person thinks. The only morally relevant difference to animals is that the lobotomized person would think
otherwise if it were not in that abnormal condition. But if her condition is normal, for instance if she is born with
mental disabilities, her lobotomized state would not be enforced on her; it would be her very nature. And her
perception of emotions would not be qualitatively different than ours.

In sum, (a) we ultimately value actions/things that lead to brain states that represent the (momentarily perceived)
emotion of desire fulfillment. (b) It is part of our empathic nature to desire the fulfillment of desires in other
beings. (c) Animals can (momentarily) perceive desires and desire fulfillment. (d) Desires are morally relevant
even if they are not currently perceived by a being but would be perceived if the being was aware of the current
state of affairs. (e) It follows that we ought to consider the desires of animals.

That does not imply that animal desires are equal to human desires. If both are in conflict, I would still prioritize
my desires according to the circumstances and eventually to the disadvantage of the animal. But I would still
have to consider them and weigh them up against my own. Hence, the moral question of whether the sensation
of eating meat weighs up against the animal’s desire to continue whatever it desires to do.

Most certainly, I cannot see how this position could be considered irrational and based on bad arguments.
Indeed, it is simpler and more consistent than the double standard of accepting the moral relevance of
momentary suffering while rejecting the moral relevance of momentary positive emotion to which desires and
desire fulfillment ultimatly boil down to.

PS: I like the taste of meat and I also butchered my own animals (chickens)since my grandparents ran a farm.
So I do not have any problems with the aesthetics of meat. But I am sure that the decoupeled perceptions of
meat as a product and meat as a killed animal simply reduces the amount of intelectual reflection people have on
this topic.

R E P LY

R IC H AR D C AR R IER • JUN E 5, 201 3, 1 0:29 AM

“
 “
The “atoms” of my moral ontology are not “meaning” but desires of
conscious beings which are a class of patterns of brain states.

But you cannot ground that moral ontology. There is no logical step from “conscious states
exist” to “I ought to preserve them.”

In a world without meaning-generating brains, meaning doesn’t exist, moral values don’t
exist, and no “ought” statement is true. Thus all moral value comes from meaning-generating
brains. Those brains can assign value to non-meaning-generating brains. But that does not
entail they ought to do so. To get from “they can” to “they ought to” requires some
intermediary steps. When you work out what those are (as I have done, e.g. in the last
chapter of The End of Christianity), you’ll find that you can connect the dots from
“suffering” to “ought” but you can’t connect them from “prolonging life” to “ought” without
that life having some value independent of your own personal desires (because if it’s just
your own personal desire, then it’s not a moral conclusion, i.e. a conclusion that holds for
everyone, but just a personal conclusion about yourself). And animal lives just don’t have
that. For all the reasons I have already explained at length.

“
If I would kill you, nothing more would be lost to you than to an animal.

I would be lost. And that means literally: I would be lost to me. That’s the point. Animals
don’t have an “I” to lose; they do not have a mind that values living as I do, that has a galaxy
of knowledge and thoughts about the nature of myself and the world as I do. They therefore
aren’t losing anything the way I am when I die. More life to them does not mean anything to
them. But it means something to us.

And that’s the bottom line.

R E P LY

BAR B N OON • JUN E 9 , 201 3, 1 2:1 0 P M

[Sorry, Richard, posting again – your post leads in to what I have been trying to say and I think I figured it out.]

First, I will start with our earlier discussion where I said animals do feel pain prior to death and during the slow
death. When I mentioned the blade, you said something like, “That is Halal, that is not how it is done normally. I
am against Halal.” But chickens are hung upside down, paralyzed of movement but not of pain, and a blade
slices them – of they move at all and many of them do because they don’t get their head all the way in the
paralyzing bath, they get hit with the blade in the eye or get one side of their throats cut only. The pain is
excruciating. Cows are hung upside down and get their throats slit after a bolt gun hits them, but they are still
alive because you can hear them crying. Slaughterhouse workers of other animals talk about them surviving all
the way to the start of them being cut up. They have seen animals try to swim in the boiling water that is
supposed to soften their skin after death. Richard, their deaths are not unpainful but extremely painful and I think
all of this is being ignored. Watch the latest slaughterhouse videos. Humane farms take their animals to such
slaughterhouses.

Next, here is your closing statement: “I would be lost. And that means literally: I would be lost to me. That’s the
point. Animals don’t have an “I” to lose; they do not have a mind that values living as I do, that has a galaxy of
knowledge and thoughts about the nature of myself and the world as I do. They therefore aren’t losing anything
the way I am when I die. More life to them does not mean anything to them. But it means something to us. And
that’s the bottom line.” So, when a dog gets pet, he has no sense of himself and he thinks, “More, it wants
more!” or “More, we want more” since it recognizes others and feels the sensation. “Oh ya, right there, right
behind the ear, mmmmm, that’s it, it loves it!” Then, a human has a massage and thinks, “Oh ya, right there,
more, I love it.” And the human might think about scheduling a massage for next week because it values the
massage, while the dog is just in the moment and only aware of the fantastic sensations, but comes up to you
next week for more.

That is the difference between whether we can, guilt free, kill an animal but not a person?

R E P LY

R IC H AR D C AR R IER • JUN E 1 2, 201 3, 6 :27 P M

In your first paragraph you’re just repeating claims that aren’t generally true and are policed
when they are proved to be. This issue I address head on in my article already. So you aren’t
listening to my arguments anymore. I can present you with examples of farm laborers horribly
and painfully killed by machinery. Are you going to use that as a reason to stop eating fruits
and vegetables? Or as a reason to reform safety regulations and their enforcement? Guess
which side I took on that question in my article. You are also making claims that are
biologically false (that muscles continue to move and contract does not entail brain
consciousness is present, which is why corpses can also cry out when manipulated
physically). And your last paragraph simply makes no sense to me. If there is a logical
argument in there, it’s not evident.

R E P LY

J U L I A N C L E M E N S • J U LY 2 4 , 2 0 1 3 , 1 2 : 3 9 P M

This is the first article I read from you, that is rationally unsound and in dire need of citations. Where has your
scientific rigor gone? This seems just like bad research practices and reasoning you often critisize in others. It
reads more like personal agenda than criticism founded on reason and logic.

A very dissapointing read.

R E P LY
 R I C H A R D C A R R I E R • J U LY 2 4 , 2 0 1 3 , 1 : 1 0 P M

Can you provide any reliable evidence that anything in it is incorrect?

R E P LY

J U L I A N C L E M E N S • J U LY 2 4 , 2 0 1 3 , 2 : 5 5 P M

That is not the point. I don’t usually have to do any research to verify the claims you make, since you’re usually
very rigorous and I can find all the sources I need within your article. Maybe I’m just spoiled.

“
Again, an animal’s life is indifferent to when it dies, because it does not become anything and
has no awareness of being something.

Here you say that an animal has no awareness of being something, but you do not back that up by citing any
sources. I’m sure you’re familiar with the many mirror experiments that have been performed to establish self
awareness in animals. Here’s an article about self awareness in magpies, for example. It also has a lot of the
research by Gallup et al. as sources, that are in the same vein.

Mirror-Induced Behavior in the Magpie (Pica pica): Evidence of Self-Recognition

“
Altogether, results show that magpies are capable of understanding that a mirror image
belongs to their own body.

Of course that doesn’t mean they are self aware in the sense that humans are

“
We do not claim that the findings demonstrate a level of self-consciousness or self-reflection
typical of humans.

But the majority of the material I have read has suggested, that we can not rule out the possibility of a self
awareness similar to that of humans. If you have different information or if I misunderstood your point it would
be great if you could share it.

In your blogpost you also said:

“
To give you a point of comparison, while vegetarianism might give you a benefit of about 1.2
times lower mortality on one single illness, and yet still makes no difference to when you die
beyond at most one or two years, not smoking definitely does give you a benefit of 10 times
lower mortality rate on numerous diseases, and for some diseases it’s 20 times or more.

(…)

But to take emphysema as an example, your odds of getting it do not increase 1.06, 1.2, or 1.4 times if you
smoke, but 5 to 10 times if you smoke. Thus smoking is vastly more irrational than vegetarianism (so vegetarians
who smoke: you’re the biggest idiots on the planet).”>

So you’re saying that vegetarianism slightly reduces mortality from a particular illness and that smoking increases
the likeliness of developing an emphysema and therefore the combination of the two is even more irrational than
smoking is on its own? I’m not following that logic.

I get that smoking is vastly more irrational than vegetarianism, but what has that to do with the rationality of being
a vegetarian? Smoking is more irrational than jogging as well, but that doesn’t make any statement on how
rational jogging is.

I’m not critisizing the whole conclusion of the health side of vegetarianism, but the reasoning and tone of that
quote above.

Sorry for the lengthy reply. I hope you can clear things up for me.

R E P LY

R I C H A R D C A R R I E R • J U LY 2 5 , 2 0 1 3 , 8 : 1 9 A M

“
I’m sure you’re familiar with the many mirror experiments that have been
performed to establish self awareness in animals.

Already answered in comments above:

“
 “
[A]s I stated upthread my article is only about the animals we eat, not ones
we don’t, and shouldn’t, which includes dolphins, whales, elephants, apes,
monkeys, magpies and African greys. Because those animals have the brain
anatomy and demonstrated cognitive powers that come close to (even if not
matching) human consciousness.

You should also be aware that mirror tests are flawed and heavily criticized in the scientific
community except when used under strict controls and only in conjunction with other tests.
(See, again, comments above.)

“
So you’re saying that vegetarianism slightly reduces mortality from a
particular illness and that smoking increases the likeliness of developing an
emphysema and therefore the combination of the two is even more irrational
than smoking is on its own? I’m not following that logic.

It’s simple: everything you do (even what city you choose to live in) affects mortality rates by
a year or two, and reasonable meat consumption at most has no greater effect than that (in
some cases, decidedly less: a mere choice of what neighborhood to live in can reduce
mortality by some years). So unless you are going to be hyper-irrational about losing a year
or two (and thus greatly restrict where you live, what elevation, what climate, what exact
specific fruits and vegetables, what clothes you wear, and so on), which is irrational, there is
no sense in being moved by the trivial benefits of vegetarianism which have not even
actually been established in the first place (as I point out, in the article and subsequent
comments, even the science that shows these trivial results is multiply flawed). By contrast,
smoking has vast and abundantly proven effects on health (numerous serious debilitating
illnesses, not just one, and reductions in lifespan of many years, not just one or two) that
make it as patently foolish as working in a coal mine without a respirator.

If you can’t tell the difference, I can’t help you.

But maybe you can get up to speed by reading The Science of Fear. Then you’ll
understand how much you already accept abundant life-reducing risks and would not (could
not) enjoy life otherwise. It then becomes a wiser management of grave risk, rather than “just
any trivial risk whatever.” Live your live. Don’t fear every enjoyment of it.

R E P LY
 J U L I A N C L E M E N S • J U LY 2 5 , 2 0 1 3 , 1 0 : 5 4 A M

“
Already answered in comments above:

Sorry, I should have read all the comments before posting.

I’m gonna get to my main point of objection and I’ll try to keep it brief.

What I understand you’re saying, in the article and in the comments is, that

1. the animals we eat lack higher level cognition (self-knowledge, identity-formation,

metacognition, and abstract thought)

2. those abilities are neccessary for them to appreciate their own existence

3. without this appreciation it doesn’t matter if they live or die

I’m not saying that those points are untrue, but that you simply assert them without
providing any sources.
That’s the problem I have with your argument.

And about the smoking comparison:

“
If you can’t tell the difference, I can’t help you.

I see what you’re trying to say, but still find the original passage clumsily worded and easy to
misunderstand.

And in my opinion there are bigger idiots on the planet than vegetarians who smoke. Kent
Hovind, for example.

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

OT: My avatar looks really mean. Imagine that I’m smiling when I make those comments, …
but not in a creepy way … maybe a little bit.

R E P LY
 R I C H A R D C A R R I E R • J U LY 2 6 , 2 0 1 3 , 1 : 5 7 P M

“
I’m not saying that those points are untrue, but that you
simply assert them without providing any sources.

Moot unless you know of evidence to the contrary. The burden is on you
to show animals have an attribute that all plain evidence is against their
having. It is not on me to prove a negative.

As it happens, I’ve studied this extensively. So good luck trying to find

any legitimate evidence to the contrary. I already know you won’t. But I’ll
allow the logical possibility you’ll find some relevant evidence I missed.

“
And in my opinion there are bigger idiots on the planet than
vegetarians who smoke. Kent Hovind, for example.

It’s not a competition.

R E P LY

B O B B I E J A M E S • J U LY 2 4 , 2 0 1 3 , 5 : 1 8 P M

“Can you provide any realiable evidence that anything in it is incorrect?”

How about when you claim animals’ throats are not slit, except in Halal? Look at the latest PETA undercover
investigation.
https://secure.peta.org/site/Advocacy?cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=4903
I also have a picture of what a calf’s expression is when it is pinned in place and branded on a “humane farm,”
but I can’t upload it here, and most people do not want to see anything they eat when it is in pain. But so much
of an animal’s life on a farm is painful.

Your main reasoning for killing animals if we desire to consume them is that animals do not have a sense of “I”;
therefore, they can be killed at any time, according to you. Where is respect for their lives and respect for the
lives of those less intelligent than we?

Although you claim not to understand my poorly written example of the minute differences between an animal
getting pet and a human getting a massage, your entire justification for your article was summed up in those few
sentences. The dog loved getting pet so much, and came back for more the next week although he was only in
the present each time. The person could voice that it was he who was being massaged, and scheduled an
appointment for a massage the next week because he could envision the future. Hopefully, I can make it clear
that this is your entire justification: the human has the concept of”I” and he knows next week is in the future.
Therefore, the dog or any other animal that we do not personally know, can be killed without any guilt. This is
what you are saying. If you say it does not make sense after I have explained your reasoning this second time,
then you might look to your own reasoning as not making sense and not my examples of your reasoning.

There are so many peer reviewed articles about the health dangers of meat and dairy. One recent one is
“Cooking meat over a stove indoors where the fumes can be breathed can increase lung cancer.” See Dr.
McGregor on vegsource.com. But rather than me spending time looking up more health sites and peer reviewed
articles on the dangers of eating meat and dairy, I just wonder why you think an animal will have a humane life if
all people ate “humane meat.” The humane farms would be just like overcrowded factory farms because of all
the meat eaters. I can put video after video of abuse on farms here. Claiming they are all “spliced with old
footage” is not true.

Claiming they can be streamlined without giving details seems to be inaccurate if you listen to what the
slaughterhouse workers say – that the machines are working too fast as it is and it is very dangerous work.

Switching to “I love humans more” by talking about strawberry field migrant workers has nothing to do with the
problem of the animals – and I already told you that I work with United Farm Workers and have helped expose
the problems of the workers not being able to read labels that are in English, live in lead based paint houses and
are sometimes sprayed with pesticides as they are in the field. Why should their problems be addressed but the
animals ignored because you think all humans must be taken care of first? Why can’t we work on both problems
at once? The migrant workers can speak up; the animals cannot and obviously, people fight against animals
having the right to live! We see that here and everywhere that people think an acquired taste is more important
than an animal’s life.
The only thing to do is cut down drastically on meat and dairy and it really is not that difficult once the mind is
made up.

Barb Noon

R E P LY

R I C H A R D C A R R I E R • J U LY 2 5 , 2 0 1 3 , 8 : 2 4 A M

Sigh. You didn’t read my article. Read it.

R E P LY

MI C H A EL R A Y N ER • S EP TEMBER 5, 201 3, 3:27 P M

“Either eating meat is not all that immoral, or everyone they know is a villain, horrifically consuming the flesh of
concentration camp victims.”

There’s certainly a false dichotomy here but also a straw man here. People make choices to exclude categories
of food for all sorts of reasons. Even when vegetarians eschew meat for moral they have a huge range of where
meat-eating ranks in there hierarchy of what is morally or ethically acceptable behaviour. The acceptance of
another persons choices isn’t necessarily irrational. In diverse societies it seems wise to accept choices people
which aren’t guided by pure reason. It doesn’t seem reasonable to expect individuals or groups will always find
common ground when it comes to deciding what is right. There certainly are very strong statements made by
some vegetarians that equate eating animal flesh (or animal products) with activities that most of us probably find
intolerable (like your examples of cannibalism, genocide and child molestation). It doesn’t follow that all
vegetarians have those views. Some Christians would like to see homosexuals stoned it doesn’t mean they all
do.

Also, many people don’t eat certain foods that certainly can be healthy and advantageous on many ways for
irrational reasons. There are many well reasoned arguments for eating arthropods. Lots of people do. People
who eat shrimp might not eat a wood louse. Most North Americans, I assume wouldn’t feast in live grubs no
matter how sensible it may be.

I’m a vegetarian myself. I drew the line for reasons I now consider irrational. I still don’t eat meat. The idea
disgusts me. I admit this isn’t rational. I don’t eat fresh tomatoes, caviar or breast milk ice cream for the same
reason. That said, I’ll happily eat a sun-dried tomato and goat’s cheese omelet even though the ingredients are
the same. Deciding that I should it these things because they could be included in my diet despite the fact I’d
probably vomit them back up isn’t reasonable. The whole point of eating from a rational point of view is to get
what nutrients you require. It’s easier to avoid foods you have a disgust reaction to than to try to modify that
response.

Despite my rejection of meat in my diet, I generally don’t hang out with many vegetarians. In fact, I get very
annoyed by the arguments made by most veggies I have known when they are trying to justify their choice using
fallacious reasoning. I get annoyed by similar arguments for shunning gluten or foods that are produced outside
of a hundred mile radius. My annoyance comes from the practice of trying to turn a choice motivated by emotion
into one ostensibly derived from a critical thought process. I applaud your use of evidence to shatter the myths
vegetarians cling to. It’s kinda disappointing that your blog post is riddled with the same types of faulty reasoning
and rhetorical devices..

R E P LY

R IC H AR D C AR R IER • S EP TEMBER 6 , 201 3, 2:1 0 P M

You are a bit late to the game. This has already been discussed in comments above. I
basically gave the analysis that you just gave (only yours is not hypothetical, and is more
detailed, so supplements what I said nicely).

R E P LY

B A R B N O O N • S E P T E M B E R 7, 2 0 1 3 , 4 : 1 5 P M

An animal licks his wounds to get better; he lays down when he feels ill; so he wants to be better – he wants to
live. It does not matter that animals have “no sense of the future.” It does not matter if their thought is called
instinctual. Animals are often categorized as using instinct when they are actually using thought. However, instinct
still shows the animal has a drive to try to live. To justify killing toddlers (because that is the age of most pigs and
calves and chickens when they are killed for food), just for the “pleasure of taste” by saying “they do not know
themselves” will never make sense to me. It is cruel and wrong, in my eyes. No matter how smooth the
slaughterhouse operates, it will be wrong, in my eyes. No matter how atheistic you are (and I am) it is wrong, in
my eyes. This is because my eyes have watched 70-100 factory farm videos, and know your excuse about
“splicing old footage” does not apply to the majority of them; my eyes have read newsletters from upstanding
groups such as United Poultry Concerns; and my eyes have seen hundreds of photos of slaughterhouse abuse
and mistakes – and one mistake when using a bolt gun is too many. No matter how many times you use the
word “fallacious” for my arguments, I see your argument to kill with a clean conscience as “cruel” and
“inadequate.” It does not matter if they are grass fed on “humane farms;” raising them as a product, killing one
day old male chicks, and enslaving dairy cows and then killing them (and often the fully-formed pregnant dairy
cow’s babies which end up lined up on the floor after the mother cows are slaughtered) are wrong. Your opinion
that all we have to do is give farm animals a short life “a little better than nature,” is one of those inadequate
statements. Would you give that kind of care to a child? And yes, I have read your article – four times. And yes,
I am pro-abortion (if you think differently by my disgust of baby cows being cut out of the mother so you can eat
her. There’s a thing called consent in human abortions – and we don’t kill the mother. My purpose for this
paragraph is to show readers of this thread that your stance it not sufficient to sway a very open-minded
person/vegan in the least.

R E P LY

R IC H AR D C AR R IER • S EP TEMBER 1 1 , 201 3, 8:39 AM

“
It does not matter that animals have “no sense of the future.”

Yes, it does.

For the reasons I have explained. Repeatedly. An animal’s future does not have any value to
it the way it does to a human conscious of what a future means and what they can do with it.
An animal is not aware of what it means to be alive or what it can do with a life or what it can
come to know and think about life and the world it’s in (nor can it ever become so aware…
the exceptions are precisely animals we don’t eat). Death simply is not a harm to an animal
the way it is to a person. And there is no factual or logical basis for thinking otherwise.

Animals are also not comparable to children. For the reasons I have explained. Repeatedly.

And if you think one accident is too many, then you should stop eating fruits and vegetables
as well. Because people die bringing them to you, too. Or are maimed. Or suffer long-term
occupational injuries. You are okay with the suffering of migrant laborers and the injustices
placed upon them. Consistency demands you should be okay with as much for animals.
Consistency also demands you should be okay with any suffering in animals that is less than
they’d suffer in the wild (as otherwise your only options are: euthanize them all or let them go
into the wild; and you are against killing them, so you have to choose the latter). Consistency
further demands that if you think industry practices are causing widespread harm, you should
 be spending your dollars on those industries that improve at that (as well as lobbying for
better government regulation, as presumably you would for farm labor), rather than taking
your dollars out of the market altogether and having no effect on it at all.

What seems apparent to me is that you are anthropomorphizing animals and basing your
reactions to their treatment on that. Thus your values are based on false beliefs. Your phobia
of killing and causing discomfort in others, which is turned off when it comes to farm laborers
but dialed up to 11 when it comes to animals, has simply created a strong aesthetic distaste in
you, which you then project onto everyone else, turning your own personal feelings into moral
self-righteousness. Because it feels good, I guess. I don’t know.

R E P LY

BAR B N OON • S EP TEMBER 1 2, 201 3, 7:34 P M

We have also previously discussed that I have worked and continue to work with United Farm Workers and
have written quite a bit about field workers and pesticides, lead in homes, language barriers, no breaks,
dangerous conditions and noncaring farm owners, so I prove that people can help humans and animals at the
same time and we do not need to just focus on one. I feel mentioning strawberry fields is more of a deflection
away from the subject of caring about and for animals. We have also talked about how boycotting strawberries
would most likely hurt migrant workers. But there are fundamental differences between boycotting strawberries
and boycotting meat and dairy, besides the obvious that animals feel pain and also cannot speak for themselves.
Boycotting meat and dairy works. When we started eating less meat, it hit the large scale beef farmers. Certainly
there are some poor workers on those farms too, but they are so stressed some have been filmed (in several
different videos at different farms) horrendously abusing chickens and turkeys. In addition to the dangers and
chemicals that both field and animal farms have, factory farm workers and slaughterhouse workers also often
suffer deep depression and there is a high suicide rate for slaughterhouse workers. Strawberry fields would be a
great improvement. Much easier to fix the strawberry field problems.

R E P LY

R IC H AR D C AR R IER • S EP TEMBER 1 9 , 201 3, 1 1 :08 AM

The way we mitigate the harms and injustices to human farm workers is the same way we
should mitigate the harms and injustices to animals. Not by declining to eat their produce, but
by working to improve their conditions, and voting with our dollars to support companies or
farms or ranches that likewise do.

R E P LY

K A I Z O K U • O C T O B E R 1 7, 2 0 1 3 , 8 : 1 4 A M

killing an animal is not the same as killing a human. of course. doesn’t make it right though. i’m talking about
killing. not such things as conditions under which the animals are kept etc.
R E P LY

GEN I U SOF MOZ A R T • DEC EMBER 28, 2014, 8:49 AM

From what I’ve read in the comments section here, Dr. Carrier, you’ve avoided addressing some of the stronger
arguments against your position and haven’t responded to requests for evidence and citations where
appropriate, particularly with respect to the ethics section. You also neglect to mention the stress and suffering
that occurs during transportation and the proportion of slaughters which cause suffering due to mere human
error.

As for the environmental argument, you’ve failed to demonstrate that a diet containing meat is less
environmentally damaging than a vegetarian diet. That’s what the argument is about – not how much damage is
done to the environment by the livestock sector, and the Environmental Working Group, for example, has
demonstrated that animal products virtually unanimously are responsible for greater greenhouse gas emissions
than plant-based foods. Nonetheless, there has been a new FAO report out in 2013, which is more detailed
than the 2006 one and much more refined, which states that 14.5% of global greenhouse gas emissions are
attributable to the livestock sector. While your objections to fertiliser and clearing of forests being included in the
estimation are themselves questionable, the new FAO report makes it clear that these represent a small
proportion of the total emissions. Further, even if all countries did adopt the industrialised system that exists in
North America and Western Europe, I find that the livestock sector would still account for 6% of global
greenhouse gas emissions when subtracting all the emissions from clearing of forests and fertilisers as well. Just
because showers and winter tomatoes produce greenhouse gas emissions, it doesn’t mean that we can’t reduce
our impact on the environment by going vegetarian.

As for the boycott vs. alternatives issue, meat is unnecessary, whereas other products which are more essential
to our lives are those for which we can pursue alternatives. If the meat industry did not exist, the suffering of
nonhuman animals as well as the impact on the environment would both be reduced.

Anyway, thank you for a thought-provoking post. I’m glad you didn’t resort to some of the arguments that
meat-eaters often use i.e. the naturalistic fallacy. Nevertheless, given the number of assertions you make without
evidence, the updating of my beliefs which I can do due to this post is very limited. You can find my full analysis
with citations here: http://vidurkapur.wordpress.com/2014/12/28/carriers-argument-against-
vegetarianism/

R E P LY

P E T E R • F E B R U A R Y 9 , 2 0 1 7, 1 2 : 3 7 A M

Well this has been rather disappointing and so far from the erudite superb scholarship we have been accustomed
to from Richard Carrier. I guess this is Richard’s own Ehrman moment. He has a personal stake in the issue
given he wants to keep munching on steak and bacon, and so cherry picks the data and makes all sorts of
ridiculous and silly fallacies while having enough logic and facts to give his argument the aura of intellect.

Sorry Richard, but this is the first time I rate an argument of yours as a fail. I only hope that in the last few years
your views have evolved on the issue or at least you have smoothed out some of the rough edges in your
arguments.
R E P LY

CP 9 • N OVEMBER 19 , 2020, 5:45 PM

Hi, Dr. Carrier. I think I mostly agree with your overall point. But one thing I think still needs to be answered.
You give good reason as to why we don’t eat humans or other animals like chimps, dolphins, etc. You also
make a good point as to why we don’t eat pets, due to their value to humans.

My question is, however, would it be okay to eat a dog that isn’t anyone’s pet? For example, would it be okay
to farm dogs or cats and eat them, like we do to pigs, chickens, etc.? If not, why not? If it isn’t, then it would
seem that vegetarianism is justified.

That’s probably the only argument for vegetarianism that I think has weight, so I’m really looking forward to
your answer.

R E P LY

RICH ARD CARRIER • N OVEMBER 20, 2020, 5:39 PM

The only argument against farming pets is that it creates a societal difficulty in policing the
illegal consuming of pets, and undermines the cultural benefits of keeping pets (which is
primarily psychological, hence requires sustaining a particular mindset vis-a-vis pets). In
short, it needlessly increases a risk factor for pets, and it undermines the added-value goal of
pet-making. By creating a culture that forbids even farming pets, there is no ambiguity over
what animals you are allowed to hunt and eat, and you are allowed the psychological space
to think differently about pets so as to derive the intended benefits from them.

Different cultures can resolve this in different ways, but it only works if there is culture-wide
and systemic agreement. Just as it doesn’t matter whether we drive on the right (as in
America) or on the left (as in England); but you do have to pick one, and everyone has to
agree to stick to it system-wide. That’s fine for isolated cultures (no one is going to be
confused whether they are in England or America, so their having different traffic systems
isn’t inherently a problem). But in intermingled cultures, it wouldn’t work (if we were never
sure which traffic system we had to follow from one street to the next, the system wouldn’t
work).

The upshot is, if you fly to a country that farms and eats dogs (as in most of China), you can
farm and eat dogs there. If you fly to a country that forbids farming and eating cows (as is the
case in most of India), you don’t get to farm or eat cows there.

As with all systems there are liminal cases (e.g. keeping pigs as pets), but they do suffer from
the cultural defects (i.e. you won’t have the same assurance someone won’t snatch and eat
your pig, and the indistinction might diminish the psychological benefits of pet-keeping), which
is the recognized disadvantage of making farm animals into pets (and hence why it is not so
commonly done).

I don’t see any argument in here for vegetarianism. “Some Indian states arbitrarily choose to
 ban eating cows, therefore Americans shouldn’t eat chickens” is a marvel of a non sequitur. I
can’t fathom how anyone would take such an argument seriously, much less confer it
“weight.”

Perhaps you are confusing your cultural aversion to, say, eating dogs (you’ve been
enculturated to see that as “gross,” as pet-culture encourages anthropomorphizing pets as a
means of enforcing the social system we’ve chosen and to enhance the comfort-benefits that
keeping pets is intended to provide) with a moral argument against eating any animal
whatever. That’s already a convoluted non sequitur. But it’s at least more intelligible, given
that nonrational emotivism is perhaps a mainstay of vegetarian rhetoric. “I feel weird about it,
therefore you shouldn’t do it” is never a logically valid argument; but is a humanly common
one.

R E P LY

C P 9 • N OVEMBER 26 , 2020, 1:41 PM

Hi, Dr. Carrier. Just to bring it to your attention in case you haven’t noticed, a commenter called Geniusofmozart
has made an interesting comment that you haven’t replied to. It’s a few comments above mine. The article seems
worth responding to too, IMO.

R E P LY

R I C H A R D C A R R I E R • N O V E M B E R 2 7, 2 0 2 0 , 4 : 2 2 P M

There isn’t anything in that comment not already addressed in the article itself: e.g. everything
I say about the miseries of the industry applies to the whole industry, including transport; no
special comment is required here; and I already addressed those points about environmental
impacts, e.g. their remark ignores that animals convert massive quantities of agrowaste that
would otherwise greenhouse the planet anyway, i.e. animals are a highly efficient recycling
industry; and I cite numerous sources for my claims. In other words, they are basically just
ignoring everything I said.

R E P LY

C P 9 • JUN E 2, 2021 , 4:59 P M

Hi, Dr. Carrier. I’m obviously a big fan and I don’t want to be rude at all, but I find it kinda disappointing that
you’d mention that book (Eat This Book) if you haven’t read it. It might concur with your position in the same
way that The God Delusion concurs with your atheism, but that doesn’t mean much if the arguments used are
awful/unconvincing.
For example, the author of Eat This Book tries to argue that plants are sentient (so why is eating plants not
wrong?). It should be immediately obvious to both you and me that this is a BS argument that any
vegan/vegetarian would, and should, laugh at. To the extent that it’s true, it’s trivial and not what vegans (or you
and I) mean by sentience. To the extent that it’s meaningful, it’s straight-up just false for reasons I think are
obvious.
Now, I don’t want it to seem like I’m bashing you, especially since you’ve openly stated that you haven’t read it.
I’m just saying that I don’t think it’s the best book to recommend. It makes meat eaters look bad, to say the
least.

R E P LY

R IC H AR D C AR R IER • JUN E 3, 2021 , 1 :43 P M

Please take more care in reading what I write. I specifically did not endorse anything in that
book. I merely mentioned someone else said it concurred with my position, a fact I explicitly
said I had not verified.

So I take no position on what that book argues. As I evenalready said, I don’t even know
what’s in that book!

Which also means I cannot verify you are accurately representing anything that book argues
either. It is also suspicious that you seem to be picking a single argument (the one you found
the weakest) and ignoring the rest of the book as though you had thereby refuted it. This is a
huge red flag for a common cognitive bias. That you misread even a single sentence I wrote
does not bode well for you having correctly read and absorbed a whole book. So at this
point, I am not confident you have correctly apprehended what that book actually says about
plants.

R E P LY

C P 9 • JUN E 3, 2021 , 2:38 P M

Like I said, I understand that you haven’t read it and are open about that
fact. I understand that someone else mentioned it to you and you aren’t
necessarily endorsing it either. I’m just saying that if that’s the case, I just
found it odd that you would mention it. If it was just to direct people to
read it and assess it for themselves, then I take what I said back and I
apologise for misunderstanding you.

As for the stuff about plants, you can read it yourself to check whether or
not I’m strawmanning/misrepresenting the author. I don’t know what else
to say except that if someone is getting basic facts like that wrong, then
it’s pretty hard to take them seriously from then on.

It’s like if a Christian argues that “all atheists believe we came from
rocks”. You and I would (most likely) immediately stop taking what they
say seriously, unless we found good reason to keep entertaining their
arguments. It could be that they go on to use/defend the Kalam or the
fine-tuning argument later, but if they’re making arguments like the first
one then we probably wouldn’t bet on them giving good defenses for
those subsequent arguments.
 But you do have a point in that it’s possible that they actually DO have
good arguments and that the first one was just a random flop. In which
case, you’re right that I was wrong to dismiss the author’s subsequent
arguments so quickly. That argument just stood out to me as creationist
levels of bad and I guess I overreacted. But like I said, you’ll have to
judge that argument for yourself.

R E P LY

RICHARD CARRIER • JUN E 3,

2021, 4:14 PM

I skimmed the book on Amazon Look Inside just now

and found nothing corresponding to what you said.
You seem to be mistaking the actual argument made in
it about plants. But as I am not reading the book, I’ll
leave that to readers to judge for themselves. I don’t
think anyone would be so foolish as to be deceived by
a “plants can think” argument, so I am unconcerned if
any such silly thing is in there. I have confirmed as
much that almost none of the content of the book is
about plant sentience, so one silly argument (if it even
exists, and I don’t see it there) can be of little
pertinence. Taking the dismissal of a single bad
argument as a refutation of an entire book is simply not
sound reasoning. You should never have attempted it.
That you did, suggests a problem with your
epistemology that you need to fix. “Making up excuses
to ignore an argument” would be at the top of my
diagnostic list.

C P 9 • JUN E 3, 2021 , 5:08 P M

Just to be clear, I don’t think I made the argument that the book is refuted based on that one argument (if I did,
then I take it back), I don’t even think the book is refuted. I’m just saying that arguments like that will be pretty
damn unconvincing to vegans. But you’re right that they shouldn’t dismiss it solely because of that section of the
book. Although I don’t think that’s the only problematic part of the book, going on about that would be pretty
pointless since you’ve made it clear that you’re not going to endorse or even read the rest of the book. In which
case I’m sorry for most likely wasting your time.

R E P LY

R IC H AR D C AR R IER • JUN E 3, 2021 , 6 :44 P M

 This backtracking confirms my suspicions. You started by denouncing the entire book
because of one argument. I caught you out on that. Now you have retreated to just saying it
has one bad argument people should be aware of, which is not longer a denunciation of the
book, and not the argument you started with. And that one bad argument does not appear to
even actually be in the book; you’ve failed to adduce any quotations attesting it, despite
several attempts at making your point here. And now you end with yet another excuse to flee
from this exchange, rather than actually make a correct point attested with actual evidence.
This is all symptomatic of a broken epistemology. You need to fix that.

R E P LY

C P 9 • JUN E 3, 2021 , 8 :04 P M

Ffs, Richard. If I made a mistake, shouldn’t I be allowed to correct it? You’re not being fair anymore. I used
flawed logic, you corrected me, I eventually accepted the correction and I appreciate it. There shouldn’t be
anything wrong with that. It’s not backtracking, it’s called being reasonable.

As far as the plant argument, I didn’t bring up any quotes because I didn’t think you were looking for any since
you said you weren’t going to read the book and you said you were “unconcerned if any such silly thing is in
there”. That’s why. Not cuz I’m attempting to “flee”, I thought we had reached a healthy conclusion to the issue.
If you are interested however:

The title of a subsection of the First Course is “Plants, Too, Are Sentient Beings”.

As well as that: “Typically, the ethical vegetarian sincerely believes that the plants he consumes in such good
conscience do not suffer and have no interests of their own, but his conviction is neither as rational nor as
empirically grounded as he supposes.”

“Nonetheless, the upshot of these investigations is absolutely clear: like all other living beings, plants
have interests and actively pursue them”.

Like I said, these are deepities: to the extent that they’re true, they’re trivial (to vegans and most likely to you
and I). To the extent that they’re profound, they’re false.

But as already mentioned, this is just a single argument out of the whole book and we shouldn’t get hung up on
it. I agree. I made a mistake and I apologise. Nevertheless, that shouldn’t be seen as something more than it is.

R E P LY

R IC H AR D C AR R IER • JUN E 4, 2021 , 1 2:1 5 P M

The problem is not whether you can correct a mistake; obviously one can always do that.
The problem is that you made the mistake: that indicates a systemic problem with your
epistemology. It is a symptom of a much bigger problem you need to recognize and fix. You
should never have engaged in such reasoning to begin with. And until you address that, you
will continue to make these mistakes in every area of your worldview and belief system.
 As to the specific argument in the book, those are not deepities: the author is making a
correct point about the circumstantial equivalence of having needs and pursuing goals without
consciousness. They are not claiming plants are cognitively sentient. You keep making this
mistake, even here. You are confusing two different things, and thereby misrepresenting an
argument in that book.

If moral value attaches to having needs and pursuing goals, then it attaches to plants.
QED. Ergo a vegetariancannot appeal to those properties as a reason not to eat animals.
They may have other reasons for their conclusions, but that’s the point I made before about
how you cannot rebut a whole book by cherry picking a single argument: that book does not
assume that’s the “only” argument it has to address, so you were acting irrationally when you
acted like it did. They are merely there addressing one particular argument, not “the entire
case.” You acted like it was the latter; and then completely misrepresented what that one
argument even was, and even got wrong its salience. These are fundamental
epistemological failures.

Which returns me to my first point: you should not be making any of these mistakes. So
you seriously need to examine yourself to answer why you are making these mistakes, and
what you can do to change your epistemology so you stop making them—not just in this
case, but in every subject of belief in the entirety of your life.

R E P LY

C P 9 • JUN E 4, 2021 , 1 2:28 P M

Okay, you’re right. Definitely my bad. I’m going to take this opportunity
to engage in some self-reflection.

Although I’m not fully convinced about the plant stuff, I’ll read it again cuz
I very well might have missed what the author was saying. As usual,
appreciate the criticism and observations.

R E P LY

Add a Comment (For Patrons & Select Persons Only)

Enter your comment here...

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

Search This Blog

 Search here...

Get Carrier’s Latest!

Follow Richard Carrier’s Work & Announcements

 

Categories

Select Category

Archives

Select Month

About The Author

Richard Carrier is the author of many books and numerous articles online and in print. His avid readers span the world from Hong Kong to
Poland. With a Ph.D. in ancient history from Columbia University, he specializes in the modern philosophy of naturalism and humanism, and the
origins of Christianity and the intellectual history of Greece and Rome, with particular expertise in ancient philosophy, science and technology. He
is also a noted defender of scientific and moral realism, Bayesian reasoning, and historical methods.

Support Dr. Carrier

Subscribe To This Blog

Enter your email address to subscribe to this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email.

Join 5,459 other subscribers

Email Address
Subscribe

Subscribe

Books By Dr. Carrier

Explore C.H.R.E.S.T.U.S.
 Get Your E-Books Signed!

Take Online Courses With Dr. Carrier

As An Amazon Associate I Earn From Qualifying Purchases Following Links On My Website.

Buying From Here Helps Fund My Work.

Recommendations

Proudly powered by WordPress | Copyright 2016 Danza