Music Philosophies, Choral Con

61-6905
I M c E W E N , Douglas R eeve,
M U SIC P H ILO S O P H IE S , C H O R A L C O N C EP TS,
A N D C H O R A L TE C H N IQ U E S E M P L O Y E D B Y
S E L E C T E D C H O R A L CONDUCTORS IN SO U TH ER N
| C A L IF O R N IA F O U R -Y E A R C O LLE G E S A ND
; U N IV E R S IT IE S . (R ESEA R C H S TU D Y N O . 1).
\
j C olorado State C o lleg e, E d .D ., 1961

| E ducation, gen eral
{ University Microfilms, Inc., Ann Arbor, Michigan

] ■■ ..
Reproduced with permission of the copyright owner. Further reproduction prohibited without permission.
COLORADO STATE COLLEGE
Greeley, Colorado
The Graduate Division
MUSIC PHILOSOPHIES, CHORAL CONCEPTS, AND CHORAL TECHNIQUES
EMPLOYED BY SEIECTED CHORAL CONDUCTORS IN SOUTHERN
CALIFORNIA FOUR-YEAR COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES
Research Study Number 1
Submitted in Partial Fulfillment of the Requirement
for the Degree of Doctor of Education
c&
Douglas R, McEwen
Division of Education
1961
THIS STUDY WAS SPONSORED
BY
Major Adviser
RESEARCH AND EXAMINING COMMITTEE
DEAN OF THE GRADUATE DIVI
Examination on Research Study Number 1 Date_
ACKNOWLEDGMENTS
The vrriter wishes to express his deepest gratitude to Roger
Wagner of the University of California at Los Angeles, Howard Swan of
Occidental College, and Charles Hirt of the University of Southern
California, for the genuinely interested cooperation which was
necessary for a thorough discussion of the ideas which are related
in the subsequent chapters.
Dr. E. E. Mohr, in addition to providing stimulation and
advice as the writer's major professor, has exercised a positive

t
influence over the years upon the direction taken by the writer's
efforts and goals. To Dr. Fred Sloan, for his help in designing the
research procedures for this study and for his thorough criticisms,
and to other members of the research committee, Dr. Don Garlick and
Dr. Forrest Frease, for their interest in reviewing the study, the
writer is indebted.
To his wife, Donna G. McEwen, the writer is grateful for her
constant encouragement and for her assistance in editing the interview
transcripts.
Douglas R. McEwen
Greeley,- Colorado
July 27, 1961
iii
ABSTRACT
McEwen, Douglas R. "Music Philosophies, Choral Concepts, and Choral

Techniques Employed by Selected Choral Conductors in Southern
California Four-Year Colleges and Universities." Unpublished
Doctor of Education research study, Colorado State College,
1961.
Statement of the Problem
Choral conductors held in highest regard by their professional
colleagues are normally so considered because of the superior quality
of their choral performance. To determine the criteria exercised in
the preparation of such performance, one is confronted with the
problem of discovering the intellectual and the technical principles
employed by those conductors.
Thus, the problem posed by this study concerns, broadly, the
revelation of discernible philosophic, conceptual, and technical
elements which may contribute to the high-quality choral performance
of selected conductors.
Method of Investigation
Selection of Subjects for Study
In order to make a valid selection of successful choral
conductors for the investigative purposes of this study, the writer
sent a list of the names of Southern California four-year college and
university choral conductors to a substantial number of teachers of
iv
choral music in that geographic area. The recipients of the list were
asked to "X" the names of the conductors whom they considered to be
of outstanding superiority with respect to a composite of choral tone,
choral literature, artistic interpretation, conducting effectiveness,
and choral precision and discipline.
So that a broad sampling of professional opinion might be
secured, the list of college and university choral conductors was
sent to members of the Southern California Vocal Association who teach
vocal music in cities of a population exceeding 100,000. In the case
of a county which had no city of that size, the largest city in the
county received the mailing.
To lend further authority to the ultimate selection of the
choral conductors to be studied, the writer sent the above list to the
officers of the California-Western Division of Music Educators National
Conference and to the presidents of the Music Educators National
Conference organizations of those states comprising the Western
Division. A fourth group of professional opinions were those expressed
by the officers of the Southern California Vocal Association.
A total of the above groups constituted 270 individuals who
were actively engaged in choral music and geographically accessible to
the choral performance of the listed conductors. It was the intent of
the writer to select for study the three, four, or five collegiate
choral conductors whose names were most frequently checked by those
who returned the questionnaire.
Nine questionnaires were returned as a result of inaccurate
address information or because the addressee had moved. One hundred
thirty-six individuals responded to the questionnaire by checking the
names of the choral conductors whom they felt to be superior or by
indicating their lack of familiarity with the work of any of the
j listed conductors. Six respondents indicated the latter. A large
| majority of the remaining 130 expressions of -recognition clearly
j showed that the choral work of three conductors was held in especially
| high regard.
| Howard Swan, Chairman of the Department of Music at Occidental

.
1
■ College, Los Angeles, was checked by 118 respondents. Charles Hirt,
Head of the Department of Church Music and Director of Choral Organi
zations at the University of Southern California, Los Angeles, was

I
j checked by 110 respondents. Roger Wagner, Director of Choral Music
at the University of California at Los Angeles, was checked by 108
respondents. The next most frequently mentioned conductor received a
: total of forty-nine checks so that the above three choral conductors
were unquestionably the most widely known and professionally respected
1in the Southern California area.
Investigative Procedure
When the subjects for study had been selected, the writer
traveled to their respective collegiate institutions for the purpose
of analytical observation of the conductors' rehearsal techniques and
for tape recorded interviews with the conductors. The recorded inter
views, in each instance, were pursued rather freely within the frame-
vi
work imposed by a list of questions. The questions were derived from
similar topics and areas of discussion contained in the bibliographic
literature reviewed for this study and were listed under the following
main headings:
A. Music training and teaching experience of the subject.
B. The subject's music philosophy.
C. The subject's choral literature concepts.
D. The subject's choral organization concepts.
E. Discussion of the subject's rehearsal techniques and
choral concepts.
F. Observations by the subject concerning factors related to
festival choruses or unusually large choral groups.
G. Choral problems and general weaknesses in the choral
field, as observed by the subject.
The tape recorded rehearsals conducted by the selected study
subjects, together with the writer's observation comments, were
analyzed according to a bibliographically derived checklist.
Inasmuch as the search for high-quality choral literature
constitutes one of the choral musician's incessant responsibilities,
the writer collected available programs of performances by the selected
choral conductors from which he compiled and appended a list of choral
literature representative of authoritative discrimination.
The tape recorded interviews were then transferred, from a
shorthand transcription, to the typewritten page for study and for
analysis. The typewritten account of each interview is appended to
vii
the study and may serve as an available, primary source of information.
Summary
The following statements constitute a synthesis of some of
the ideas which were especially emphasized by each interviewee in the
discussion of his music background, music philosophy, choral concepts,
and choral techniques.
A. Roger Wagner
1. Roger Wagner attributes great significance to the mu
sical insight and to the disciplines of phrasing and
intonation which were imposed by his strong Catholic
background in the Greek modes, Gregorian chant, and
in Renaissance music.
2. Just as all music is the artistic expression of an
idea, so has vocal tone quality the capacity to re
flect the emotional atmosphere surrounding that idea.
3- Every choral conductor should know the great choral
works, should search for their inherent dramatic
intensity, and should be familiar with the musical
styles of which they are exemplary, if he would develop
his musical discrimination and his musical insight.
4. Inasmuch as singers normally reflect the conductor's
attitude, the more deeply a conductor can penetrate the
music, and the more closely identified with it he can
'• become, the greater will be the choral affection for
viii
the music.
5. Because the general ability to read music would have
an enormously revitalizing effect upon music activity
across the country, students at all levels in the
public schools should be taught to read music as they
are taught other basic subjects.
6. Choral and instrumental conducting are fundamentally
without difference to the extent that conducting style
should always be in character with the music, so that
it appears as the music is to sound, and so that each
motion has its audible manifestation.
7. Poor choice of choral literature, poor phrasing, poor
intonation, and a lack of dramatic communication on
the part of many conductors are some of the indications
of widespread weakness in general musicianship which
Wagner observes and which he attributes either to the
inadequate person or to inadequate training.
S. In addition to technical suggestions for ever-
increasing precision in rehearsal, Wagner sought to
affect the quality of the ensemble sound through
efforts to generate more excitement within the singers
concerning the dramatic intent of the music.
9. The musical conviction from which so much of Wagner's
expression seemed to stem was that an intimate knowl
edge of a broad range of high-quality choral literature,
IX
together with an insight concerning the musical styles
which most successfully project inherent drama, can
result in an ability to inspire great singing.
B. Charles Hirt
1. Music is not so much a vehicle for conveying specific
ideas as it is for conveying emotions and attitudes of
mind which permit the growth of ideas.
2. The duty of the teacher is to motivate his students to
search for their own concepts of musical meaning by
inculcating the faith that in music there exists a
transcending efficacy.
3- He attributes a part of the gradual change in his
interpretive approach to choral music to a gradual
development of stylistic insight.
4. A musical composition, as objectified emotion, must
once again become subjective in its recreation if the
emotion is to be communicated with intensity.
5. The institutions which are responsible for the prepara
tion of choral conductors should not expect to teach
conducting as if it were a fixed entity; they should
make every effort to accelerate and to abet the
process of student self-discovery.
6. Rather than referring frequently to specific vocal
techniques in rehearsal, the efforts to reveal the
emotion of the music and to imply techniques through
a communication of the underlying meaning of the music
constitute Hirt’s primary approach to artistic refine
ment.
7. Ideally, the ensemble should discover and should so
understand its own valid and unique musical expression
that the conductor may join the group as a performing
partner rather than as a leader.
8. The philosophic ideal which seems to permeate every
phase of Hirt's thought and actions is that music
embodies a transcendental efficacy which must be
believed and which must be sought after by the individ
ual, if the art is to be realized within its most noble
context.
C . Howard Swan
1. Involving much more than technical considerations, the
most moving and highly penetrating musical performance
emanates from singers who have identified themselves
with the emotion of the musical idea.
2. The assimilated musical idea must serve as the stimulus
which suggests the appropriate conducting and rehearsal
technique.
3. The duty of those who are responsible for preparing
choral conductors is to inspire creativity rather than
to foster imitation.
4- No element could contribute more strongly to musical
insight than a thorough knowledge of authentic
stylistic characteristics.
5- The communication of textual implication constitutes
the significant difference between choral conducting
and instrumental conducting, and justifies their
separate consideration as areas of musical leadership.
6. Choral conductors choose inappropriate tempi, appear to
be insensitive to the musical phrase, and fail to re
veal emotion to their groups because they are insuffic
iently aware of the elements essential to many musical
styles.
7. In rehearsal Swan emphasized that technique is essen
tial, but that it exists solely to serve art as a
vehicle for communication.
8. He demonstrated that the obligation of the conductor
is to lead the singer to think and to express with
musical independence and yet to be aware of his
position of responsibility within the ensemble.
Conclusions
Though the academic and the musical backgrounds of the selected
conductors were highly dissimilar, twenty-five years or more of experi
ence in the choral field led each to an expression of virtually identi
cal values which they feel to be central to the exercise of every act
of musical leadership. Wagner, Hirt, and Swan share the conviction
that the refinement of the artistic and technical discrimination of a
conductor -who possesses the capacity to grow in musical sensitivity
is almost entirely dependent upon:
1. His initial knowledge of the significant choral works of
the major compositional periods, together with an insight
concerning the stylistic characteristics of which they are
exemplary.
2. His ability to discern and to identify himself emotionally
with the inherent dramatic intent of the musical idea
contained within a composition.
The musical values and the artistic discrimination which stem
from a reference standard of choral literature and compositional
styles, coupled with a sensitivity to emotional drama, become the
fundamental determiners affecting:
1. The conductor's choice of choral literature and the
expansion of his repertoire within the framework of
tasteful and cogent criteria.
2. The conductor's rehearsal preparation and the anticipation
of the choral problems which are related to the proper
interpretation of style and to dramatic communication.
3- The rehearsal procedures and the technical devices which
the conductor employs to achieve interpretive goals.
4. The ultimate communicative intensity of choral performance
as the conductor communicates with the ensemble and as the
ensemble communicates with the listener.
xiii
If inspiring and creative musical leadership is the product of
an individual's ability to penetrate and to assimilate for himself
music's deepest meaning, then conducting classes which concern them
selves -with no more than a technical emphasis upon the habituation of
metric and rhythmic gesture fall far short of their attainable effec
tiveness. Such procedures foster thoughtless imitation rather than
creativity. It is the dramatic musical intent within the framework of
stylistic limitation which must suggest the appropriate conducting
technique. The student may be encouraged and advised in the course of
his learning process but he will only become independently creative in
an authoritative manner to the extent of his developed capacity to
comprehend the mutually enhancing qualities of technique and emotion
in musical expression.
Re commendations
The writer wishes to recommend that institutions which prepare
choral conductors place curricular and experiential emphasis upon:
1. The earliest habituation of the standard conducting
patterns which necessarily involve a greater concern for
physical coordination than for artistic communication.
2. Conducting classes which strongly encourage the student's
independent discovery and expression of the technical and
emotional implications of compositional style and dramatic
intent contained within the literature of the outstanding
composers.
xiv
3. The kind of collegiate choral rehearsal -which provides the
student with the incentive as well as the opportunity to
grow in his ability to discern the technical and emotional
intent of dramatic musical expression within the stylistic
boundaries of exemplary choral works.
4. A program of continuous vocal instruction for the under
graduate student of choral conducting, in which he should
develop the artistic use of his own instrument through the
mastery of vocal techniques and in which he should discover
the stylistic and emotional origins of technical demands
imposed by the vocal literature of major composers.
5. Music history and music literature courses, whether
chorally or instrumentally oriented, which place signifi
cant emphasis upon the relationship between harmonic,
melodic, rhythmic, and formal stylistic devices and the
philosophically derived expression of an emotional idea.
6. Courses in music theory which relate the analysis of
harmonic, melodic, rhythmic, and formal practices of
significant composers to the actual effect of such
practices upon the emotional atmosphere and the dramatic
intensity of an artistic idea.
7* A program for preparing choral conductors which results not
only in the student's facility to read music at sight with
reasonable fluency, but which should also inculcate the
value of and a practical method for teaching a similar
facility to public school students.
xv
TABLE OF CONTENTS
Page
ACKNOWLEDGMENTS............................................ iii
ABSTRACT.................................................... iv
Chapter
I. STATEMENT OF THE PROBLEM AND ITS TREATMENT.......... 1
Need for the Study

Delimitation of the Problem
Organization of the Report
II. REVIEW OF THE RELATED LITERATURE.................... 15
III. AN ACCOUNT OF THE INTERVIEW WITH AND THEREHEARSAL

TECHNIQUES EMPLOYED BY ROGER WAGNER .............. 19
Music Training and Teaching Experience

Music Philosophy
Choral Literature Concepts
Choral Organization Concepts
Rehearsal Techniques and Choral Concepts
Factors Related to Festival Choruses
General Choral Weaknesses and Recommendations
An Analysis of the Rehearsal
Summary
IV. AN ACCOUNT OF THE INTERVIEW WITH AND THE REHEARSAL

TECHNIQUES EMPLOYED BY CHARLES H I R T ............. 57

Music Philosophy
Summary
xvi
TABLE OF CONTENTS— Continued
Chapter Page
V. AN ANALYSIS OF THE INTERVIEWS WITH AND THE REHEARSAL
TECHNIQUES EMPLOYED BY HOWARD SWAN............... 87

Music Philosophy
Summary
VI. SUMMARY, CONCLUSIONS, AND RECOMMENDATIONS........... 131
Summary
Conclusions
Re commendation s
ANNOTATED BIBLIOGRAPHY...................................... 145
APPENDIXES................... 151
xvii
1
CHAPTER I
STATEMENT OF THE PROBLEM AND ITS TREATMENT
Need for the Study
Public school and collegiate choral activity in the United
States has, in the last thirty years, experienced a quantitative
expansion and a qualitative refinement of unparalleled proportions.
The dissemination and the application of improved choral ensemble
techniques has significantly enhanced the art of choral perfoimance.
Providing leadership and inspiration in this maturing art are those
choral conductors whose musical performance is of so superior a nature
as to warrant wide-spread professional admiration. Exemplary choral
performance, in addition to initiating a vigorous wave of emulation,
gives rise to speculation concerning the processes which result in
such achievement.
If one assumes that the performance product is but the sonic
manifestation of the ideas existing in the conductor's mind, then it
is to that conductor's mind and to his rehearsal that one must go to
seek the concepts and the techniques which are responsible for the
expressed musical idea. Extremely rare are the opportunities for the
average public school music teacher to observe the rehearsal techniques
of the choral leaders whom he most admires and to discuss with them the
principles of music philosophy and the choral concepts which govern
2
the exercise of musical discrimination and which produce outstanding
performance. The majority of choral musicians must thus be content
with speculation and experimentation upon those ideas which they feel
may be at the heart of the kind of performance which they admire and
for which they strive.
Therefore, it seemed important, to the extent of fulfilling a
desire widely shared by choral musicians, that a study involving a
detailed discussion with and an analytical observation of selected
choral authorities be undertaken. Further, it was considered likely
that such a study might produce a number of constructive implications
for the college and the university curriculum, responsible for the
professional preparation of public school choral musicians.
Choral conductors held in highest regard by their professional
colleagues are normally so considered because of the superior quality
of their choral perfoimance. To determine the criteria exercised in
the preparation of such performance, one is confronted with the problem
of discovering the intellectual and the technical principles employed

^ r
by these conductors.
Thus, the problem posed by this study concerned, broadly,
the revelation of discernible philosophic, conceptual, and technical
elements which may contribute to the high-quality choral performance
of selected conductors.
3
Delimitation of the Problem
In the opinion of the writer, the potential degree of detailed
analysis, or the attainable depth of a study, is often inversely
proportionate to the number of study-subjects involved. Therefore,
a necessarily more-shallow study of recognized choral leaders across
the country was not attempted. Instead, the area of Southern Califor
nia, in which are located nineteen four-year colleges and universities,
was selected. The writer proposed to interview and to observe the
college and university conductors considered to be of superior calibre
by the choral musicians of that same geographic area.
Thus, the scope of this study was limited to a search for
information related to the music philosophies, choral concepts, and
choral techniques employed by selected choral conductors in Southern
California four-year colleges and universities.
Selection of Subjects for Study
In order to make a valid selection of successful choral con
ductors for the investigative purposes of this study, the writer sent
a list of the names of Southern California four-year college and
university choral conductors (see Appendix A) to a substantial number
of teachers of choral music in that geographic area. The recipients
of the list were asked to "X" the names of the conductors whom they
considered to be of outstanding superiority with respect to a composite
of choral tone, choral literature, artistic interpretation, conducting
4
effectiveness, and choral precision and discipline.
So that a broad sampling of professional opinion might be
secured, the list of college and university choral conductors was sent
to members of the Southern California Vocal Association who teach vocal
music in cities of a population exceeding 100,000. In the case of a
county which had no city of that size, the largest city in the county
received the mailing.
To lend further authority to the ultimate selection of the
choral conductors to be studied, the writer sent the above list to the
officers of the California-Western Division of Music Educators National
Conference and to the presidents of the Music Educators National Con
ference organizations of those states comprising the Western Division.
A fourth group of professional opinions were those expressed by the
officers of the Southern California Vocal Association.
A total of the above groups constituted 270 individuals who
were actively engaged in choral music and geographically accessible to
the choral perfoimance of the listed conductors. It was the intent of
the writer to select for study the three, four, or five collegiate
choral conductors whose names were most frequently checked by those
who returned the questionnaire.
Nine questionnaires were returned as a result of inaccurate
address information or because the addressee had moved. One hundred
thirty-six individuals responded to the questionnaire by checking the
names of -the choral conductors whom they felt to be superior or by
indicating their lack of familiarity with the work of any of the
5
listed conductors. Six respondents indicated the latter. A large
majority of the remaining 130 expressions of recognition clearly
showed that the choral work of three conductors was held in especially
high regard.
Howard Swan, Chairman of the Department of Music at Occidental
College, Los Angeles, was checked by 118 respondents. Charles Hirt,
Head of the Department of Church Music and Director of Choral Organi
zations at the University of Southern California, Los Angeles, was
checked by 110 respondents. Roger Wagner, Director of Choral Music
at the University of California at Los Angeles, was checked by 108
respondents. The next most frequently mentioned conductor received a
total of forty-nine checks so that the above three choral conductors
were unquestionably the most widely known and professionally respected
in the Southern California area.
Investigative Procedure
When the subjects for study had been selected, the writer
traveled to their respective collegiate institutions for the purpose
of analytical observation of the conductors' rehearsal techniques and
for tape recorded interviews with the conductors. The recorded inter
views, in each instance, were pursued rather freely within the frame
work imposed by a list of questions. The questions were derived from
topics and areas of discussion similar to those contained in the
bibliographic literature reviewed for this study and consisted of the
following:
6
A. Music training and teaching experience of the subject.
1. Where was your collegiate training taken?
2. Were these schools of the teacher-training type or of
the conservatory type?
3. Do you recall any student conducting or performing
experiences as being significant to your subsequent
musical development?
4. Have any academic courses made a lasting impression
upon your development as a musician?
5- Do you feel that you have retained to a meaningful
extent any of your undergraduate choral concepts?
6. Have your choral views evolved largely from the
practical experience of conducting "in the field?"
7* Where, and for how long, have you taught?
a) Has your experience included the teaching of music
content (music history, harmony, etc.) or music
education courses?
b) What kinds of organizations have you conducted?
c) What organizat'- ns do you now conduct?
8. What elements prompted you to accept each new position?
B. The subject's music philosophy.
1. Do you hold a philosophy as to the nature and/or
purpose of music— particularly choral music?
2. Are these ideas original to your thinking, through
professional experience, or were you exposed to the
7
basic concepts as a student?
3. How does such a philosophy affect your choice of
choral literature?
a) Has your music literature preference undergone
change or growth?
b) To what would you attribute such change?
4* Do you feel that your philosophy is expressed in your
interpretation of music?
5. Are you aware of elements which may have contributed
to a performance in which your group attained an
especially high level of aesthetic experience and
communication?
6. In your opinion, what should be stressed during the
early training of public school choral directors?
7. In what way(s) do you feel that your efforts are of
value to society?
C. The subject's choral literature concepts.
1. Have you a means of evaluation which serves to indicate
those selections which constitute good choral litera
ture?
2. Have any sources, or systems of search, for choral
literature proved especially fruitful?
3. What elements do you feel contribute most to a conduc
tor's insight concerning literature to be performed?
4. How prominent a role is played by the text as you
8
select music for your organizations?
5. Have you a method for self-preparation prior to the
rehearsal of a piece of music?
6. Does a chorus need a kind of literature insight, aside
from technical accuracy, if it is to perform as you
■would wish?
a) Of what does such insight consist?
b) How do you impart such insight to your chorus?
D. The subject's choral organization concepts.
1. 'What vocal elements determine the selection of singers
for your choral organizations?
2. Are there non-musical factors significant to your
evaluation of choral applicants?
3. Do you prefer a particular choral seating arrangement?
4. Do you find it effective to encourage the implementa
tion of choral organization policy through the
participation of student officers or a student board
of some sort?
5. Is there a province, related to organizational policy,
within which the conductor must assume full
responsibility?
6. Has intercollegiate competition to attract student
musicians had any discernible effect upon the number
or upon the calibre of students coming to your
department?
9
a) Does your department follow a plan for student
recruitment?
b) If you have a plan, how does it function?
c) Do you consider your plan to be a just and a fair
one?
d) Have you observed conduct related to student
recruitment programs which you consider to be
unethical or an exploitation?
e) Does a large-scale recruiting program, in your
view, constitute any potential danger from the
standpoint of developing a "something-for-nothing"
attitude; that the State "owes me an education?"
7. VJhat policies seem to work well for you with respect
to maintaining good rehearsal attendance?
8. Are most choral directors likely to ask a choir to
perform too frequently?
a) What appear to be the choral results of excessive
performance demands?
b) What do you consider to be an optimum annual per
forming schedule for a major choral organization?
9. What are your views concerning the validity of choral
concert tours?
10. Are there elements of choral organization which appear
to contribute favorably to group morale?
10
E. Discussion of the subject's rehearsal techniques and
choral concepts.
1. Do you prepare yourself in any way for each choral
rehearsal?
a) Do you arrange the sequence of literature for
purposes of calculated variety and pacing?
b) To what extent do you predetermine how much a
rehearsal should accomplish and the placement of
special emphasis?
2. Would you comment concerning any reaction you may have
regarding the special "choral schools" and their
unique tonal personalities?
3* Are you able to describe the nature of the choral tone
which you consider ideal, or for which you strive?
4- What methods have proved most effective in achieving
the choral tone you desire?
5. Are there elements, aside from sheer tone, which are
involved in the choral sound for which you strive?
6. Have you a theory concerning any special function, or
a unique responsibility, of choral conducting?
7- In your opinion, are there significant differences
between choral and instrumental conducting?
8. Have you methods for enhancing groups' response to
your conducting?
9. What do you believe to be the chief causes of poor
11
choral intonation?
i
10. What remedies appear to be the most effective when
poor intonation occurs?
F. Observations by the subject concerning factors related to
festival choruses or unusually large choral groups.
1. What are your central considerations when choosing
literature for large choruses which must perform after
very limited rehearsal?
2. Are there primary aims for which you strive when
preparing large choruses?
3- What are the means which, for you, seem to accomplish
these primary aims most quickly?
G. Choral problems and general weaknesses in the choral field,
as observed by the subject.
1. What are the choral weaknesses which you most
frequently observe?
a) Do such weaknesses appear to stem from a basic
inadequacy of the conductor?
b) Are there implications of faulty teacher-training?
2. In the light of such weaknesses, could you recommend
to the young choral conductor the pursuit of any
particular study or experience which could make a
significant contribution to his musical maturation and
professional growth?
12
The tape recorded rehearsals conducted by the selected study
subjects, together with the writer'sobservationcomments, were ana
lyzed according to the followingbibliographically derivedchecklist:
1. Numerical composition of the vocal sections.
2. Seating arrangement of the group.
3- Vocal "warm-up" and its intended purpose.
a) Preliminary attention to placement of tone.
4* Emphasis upon uniformity of vowel production.
5. Attention to consonants.
6= Attention to tonal balance among choral sections.
7- Emphasis upon appropriate use of "legato line."
8. Conducting style.
a) Use of the hands.
b) Use of the face.
c) Use of the body.
d) Emphasis upon conducted rhythms.
e) Indication of dynamic variety.
f) Phrasing indications.
g) Attacks, releases, and cueing vocal entrances.
h) Conveying tonal intensity.
9. Choral evidence of stylistic versatility.
10. Nature and effectiveness of the conductor's spoken comment.
11. Evidence of the conductor's pre-rehearsal preparation.
12. Humor in rehearsal.
13. Apparent choral response to the conductor's procedure.
13
Inasmuch as the search for high-quality choral literature
constitutes one of the choral musician's incessant responsibilities,
the writer collected available programs of performances by the selected
choral conductors from which he compiled and appended a list of choral
literature representative of authoritative discrimination♦ (See
Appendix B.)
The tape recorded interviews were then transferred, from a
shorthand transcription, to the typewritten page for study and for
analysis. The typewritten account of each interview constitutes a
part of the study (Appendices C, D, and E) and may serve as an avail
able, primary source of information.
Organization of the Report
Chapter I includes a statement of the need for the study, a
statement of the problem, the delimitation of the problem, the method
of investigation, and the organization of the report. Chapter II
presents a review of the literature appropriate to the field of
interest of this study. Chapter III presents an analysis of the
interviews with and the rehearsal techniques employed by the first of
the selected choral conductors. Chapters IV and V, with information
relating to the remaining conductors, follow the procedures outlined
in Chapter III. Chapter VI summarizes the report by means of synthe
sizing the salient points of view and the rehearsal techniques of the
selected conductors, from which the writer reaches his conclusions and
makes concomitant recommendations for the implementation of the
14
experiential and curricular responsibility of the teacher-training
institution.
Appendix A includes an example of the explanatory letter,
together with the checklist of Southern California collegiate choral
conductors, sent to practicing choral musicians. Appendix B contains
choral literature compilation taken from available programs of per
formances given by the selected conductors. Appendices C, D, and E
comprise the transcribed text of the interviews with the selected
conductors.
15
CHAPTER II
REVIEW OF THE RELATED LITERATURE
Scholarly research of a case study nature involving philosoph
ic and technical inquiry into the areas of choral music and conducting
is virtually nonexistent. Published literature written by choral and
conducting authorities, however, is relatively plentiful and consti
tutes the most representative cross section of contemporary thought on
the subject.
In his review of the literature related to conducting, con
ductors, and choral music, the writer was impressed with the manner
in which the expressed points of view seemed to fall into two general
categories. These categories may be described as encompassing those
publications whose approach to conducting stems from a spiritual
or philosophic "principle" and those whose primary concern is for
conducting "technique." One group emphasizes values which are funda
mentally musical while the emphasis of other writers stresses mechani
cal efficiency. Though few writers totally ignore either principle or
technique, it is numerically obvious that the large majority of text
books strongly favors the latter in point of relative emphasis.
16
1 2 S
Stoessel, Scherchen, and Howerton,-' among others, are
greatly concerned with the mental realization— the intellectual
absorption— of a musical style which may give rise to the interpretive
physical movement. Such interpretive movement takes place within the
framework of established conducting patterns but the very nature of
the motions is profoundly affected by the degree of motivating, musical
insight. The importance of conducting technique is not overlooked.
In fact, its complete mastery is essential. It is the purpose— the
relative function— which conducting technique serves which becomes the
pedagogic emphasis. Technique must be the servant of art. Subservi
ence of technique to the interpretation of the composer's ideas con
stitutes the threshold between music as a science and music as an art.
The art of music is the result of a thought process out of which
generate ideas which are more subtly expressive of a musical style.
This is the kind of approach, suggest such authors, which does not
limit the response of the conductor to a restricted set of movements
performed as a changeless routine. By constantly searching for the
"why” of technique, the conductor and the group he rehearses become
increasingly aware of and responsive to the appropriate solutions to
interpretive problems. "Appropriate" solutions need not always be the
■^Albert Stoessel, The Technique of the Baton (New York:

Carl Fischer, Inc., 1920).
p
Hermann Scherchen, Handbook of Conducting (London: Oxford
University Press, 1933)-
^ G e o r g e Howerton, Technique and Style in Choral Singing (New

York: Carl Fischer, Inc., 1957)*
17
same solutions.
VTodell,Sunderman,^ Garretson,^ Christy,^ and Coward"* are
among the many authors whose -writings are typical of the approach to
conducting employed by a substantial majority of textbooks on the
subject. Theirs is the kind of book most often intended for use by
the beginning conducting class whose primary concerns are mechanics
and organizational procedures. The "mechanical" approach normally
involves the study and habituation of basic conducting patterns, the
study of vocal attacks, releases, and cueing techniques, and such
matters as choral seating arrangements and the selection of voices for
a group. These are everyday kinds of problems of a common and yet of
an elementary nature. Though no choral conductor may expect to avoid
or to be spared such problems, it is apparent to the writer that most
conducting books suggest mechanical solutions which are quite specific
and which imply that there is really only one way to meet the need.
The importance of the conductor's knowledge of musical styles, as it
becomes manifest in the expressive quality of his conducting, is
•'•Frederick Wodell, Choir and Chorus Conducting (Bryn Mawr,

Pennsylvania: Theodore Presser Co., 1901).
%JLoyd Frederick Sunderman, Some Techniques for Choral Success

(Rockville Centre, New York: Belwin, Inc., 1952).
^Robert L. Garretson, Conducting Choral Music (Boston: Allyn

and Bacon, Inc., 1961).
^Van A. Christy, Glee Club and Chorus (New York: G. Schirmer,

Inc., 1940).
5-Henry Coward, Choral Technique and Interpretation (New York:

The H. W. Gray Co., Inc., n.d.).
18
frequently afforded a recognition of but minor significance.
A perusal of the literature related to conducting and to
choral music reveals a unanimity of agreement as to the essentiality
of technical mastery. Within an exclusive frame of reference, it is
possible for the student to acquire values that would render technique
as an end in itself. Others will suggest that technique is but the
vehicle for the expression of a more basic musical idea. If music as
an art is dependent upon the interpreter, then the conductor must have
a matured and clear mental conception of a musical work before the
application of any conducting and rehearsal techniques.
The substance of the composite viewpoint seems to indicate
that technical mastery and a knowledge of organizational procedures
can help to produce efficient choral groups but that the most creative
and expressive performance will stem from a philosophic realization of
the musical idea.
19
CHAPTER III
AN ACCOUNT OF THE INTERVIEW WITH AND THE REHEARSAL
TECHNIQUES EMPLOYED BY ROGER WAGNER
On December 19, I960, the writer conducted an interview with
Roger Wagner in his home at Los Angeles, California. The statements
which follow constitute an account of Dr. Wagner’s response to a series
of interview questions. The categorical headings contained in this
chapter correspond to similar categories of questions which were posed
to the interviewee. In no case did the interviewer attempt to limit
the response of the interviewee to a specific answer to any question.
Rather, the questions were intended to stimulate the thinking of the
interviewee within a general area so that concepts and ideas of
importance to him might be more freely revealed. The reader may wish
to refer to Appendix C for a transcription of the tape-recorded inter
view.
Later in this chapter is an analytical account of a rehearsal
which was conducted by Dr. Wagner on the campus of the University of
California at Los Angeles on December 16, i960.
B o m in LePuy, France, Roger Wagner grew up in a family
atmosphere of music. When, at the age of seven years, Wagner came to
20
the United States with his family, his father, who had been organist
at the Cathedral of Dijon, accepted a similar position in Los Angeles,
California. Wagner, as a boy soprano, began singing at the age of
eight or nine years. Even as a youth he can recall having reacted
strongly against his father’s nineteenth century, romantic approach to
music. At the age of twelve years, Wagner assumed his first conducting
responsibility at St. Ambrose Catholic Church in Hollywood, California,
where he directed both a junior choir and some adult singers. He
remembers having frequently criticized the men in his group for not
being able to read music.
He could level such criticism for musical incompetence because
he had taken his first two years of elementary school in France where
the study of music reading occupied a portion of the regular curriculum
In France, he recalls, the ability.to read simple music was expected
of every child whether or not he ultimately became a musician.
Solfeggio, using the "fixed do" method, was taught in the schools
every day.
Even now, he believes the "fixed do" method of music reading
to be superior to all others. He maintains that the large portion of
contemporary music which is either atonal or, at best, consists of
only a remote key feeling, is generally unsingable by the "moveable
do" approach because the performer has the greatest difficulty in
locating "do."
Following the two years spent in France, Wagner returned to the
United States where he became "fanatically interested" in the organ.
21
Such was his interest that he had a piano with organ pedals especially
made. Upon this piano-organ combination, he spent many hours develop
ing a close musical acquaintance with the fugal literature of J. S.
Bach and other composers of the contrapuntal style.
Though he had given serious consideration to entering the
priesthood and had attended seminaries in Santa Barbara and in
Compton, California, by the time he had entered Fairfax High School,
Wagner had decided that music was to be his life work. He did not
graduate from high school, however, because it was decided that he
should return to France. The second trip abroad was not for the
purpose of learning anything specifically, but for the purpose of
learning how to study. In France, he applied himself to a study of
French literature and worked with the well known organist Marcel
Dupre. At that time in Paris there was a concentration of a number of
the world's finest organists who were playing music literature of the
highest quality and from whom Wagner continued to cultivate his
musical taste. Together with the organ study, his two years in France
were steeped in the Catholic traditions of Gregorian chant and
Renaissance music. The concentrated exposure to the ancient music of
the church he still considers to have been one of the most significant
influences upon his life.
Following a brief visit to the United States in 1935, at which
time his father passed away, Wagner returned to France where he was
drafted into the French army. Two years later, after his release from
the service, he spent still another year of study in that country.
22
Returning to the United States in 1937» he was briefly
affiliated -with the movie industry as a singer. Even there, the
finest singers would crowd around him during a recording session so
that they might hear their notes from one who could read music.
During these months he took some graduate work in orchestration and
in research at the University of California at Los Angeles and at the
University of Southern California. He ultimately earned a doctor*s
degree at the University of Montreal, with a dissertation on "The
Masses of Josquin Des Pres."
Having grown tired of his commercial music associations,
Wagner accepted a church position, involving choral responsibilities,
and retained it for ten years. In the church he worked extensively
with boys* voices as well as with adult voices. There he experienced
the problems of organizing groups and of working with children.
When he achieved the highest score on an examination, Wagner
became affiliated with the Los Angeles Bureau of Music and proceeded
to organize thirty civic choruses. Initially he traveled from
rehearsal to rehearsal and did all of the conducting. Later, twenty
conductors were hired to meet the expanded needs.
The general level of choral achievement and of choral thought
was such a source of dissatisfaction that he determined to set about
forming his own group. Comprised of twelve voices, his first select
choral organization was made up of outstanding singers chosen from
among the several Los Angeles civic choruses. The first major
performing responsibility of the group involved a weekly, thirty-
23
minute, local radio broadcast of madrigal music. Wagner gratefully
admits that the pressures of the regular broadcasts were largely
responsible for his expanded knowledge of the madrigal literature.
As the madrigal group developed in musical style and finesse,
he felt that it was time to attempt music literature of a greater
variety. With expanded vocal forces he then began, in a church
basement, two years of intensive rehearsal with scarcely any public
performance. Alfred Wallenstein, then Conductor and Music Director
of the Los Angeles Philharmonic Orchestra, became aware of the group
and arranged several performances with the combined forces. Those
performances led to others with the orchestra and to still more with
Franz Waxman at the Los Angeles Music Festival. A long-term contract
with Capitol Records was another result of the acclaim afforded the
professional choral performances. Concert tours by the Roger Wagner
Chorale and an ever-expanding musical versatility have brought about
a recognition of achievement which ranks with the highest in the field
of choral art. The position as conductor of the U.C.L.A. A Cappella
Choir, which Wagner has held for the past twelve years, became
available to him as another concomitant of outstanding professional
achievement.
Wagner attributes his success, in part, to the hardships he
experienced as a student in France. During those years, because his
parents sent him no money and because he nearly starved, he determined
to become musically successful so that poverty would not have to be
endured again. Partly out of a will to survive, he developed a highly
24
competitive spirit. Valuable background training was provided by the
experiences of having worked with children as well as beginning
singers, and of having organized adult choral organizations. With his
musical foundation in the Greek modes and in the unison singing of
chant, Wagner feels strongly that his early concentrations upon
sixteenth century literature, the study of Bach’s organ music, and the
study of orchestration were all significant contributors to his
musical development.
Music Philosophy
Wagner states initially that he believes all music to be the
expression of an idea. Chorally, the singers' tone must fit or be
appropriate to the idea as it is expressed in the text and in the
music. As an example, he compares the Gothic arch with the long vocal
lines of Palestrina's music which must be sung with smoothness,
reserved purity, and control. The intrusion of personality, to the
extent of the wide vibrato of "vocalism," would be inappropriate to
the philosophy represented by Renaissance music. Dissimilarly, the
music of Bach calls for the expression of the individual personality
in the exuberance and the small energies of its shorter phrases. The
degree of greatness of a conductor is related to his ability to probe
deeply into the music and to influence his singers to perform at a
level above their normal capacities.
The conductor must know his music very, very well. His most
sincere effort to comply with the apparent wishes of. the composer
25
should still leave room for interpretive alterations which he believes
to be pertinent. In direct proportion to the degree to which the
conductor really understands his music, does he become aware that tone
quality has the capacity to reflect the philosophy of a given
compositional era. The straight tone, free of vibrato, is reflective
of objectivity. To apply such a tone to music of the Romantic period
would impose a stifling severity quite incompatible with the spirit of
the time. "Warmth,” drama, and the free reign of the voice more
closely typify the idealized and impetuous Romantic era.
When the expression of a musical idea becomes a central
consideration, Wagner says, "Singers are stones!" Singers listen to
themselves and assume that people are interested in hearing the voice.
People are not interested in the voice. People are interested in what
the singer has to "say" musically. In addition to technique, singers
need drama training. The vocal technique must be developed to the
point of an ability to express the musical idea without interfering
with it.
Wagner's music philosophy and his approach to music have
developed independent of positive associations with other choral
personalities. He states that during his early years as a conductor,
he learned much about what to avoid and about what he did not wish to
do, as a result of talking with other choral men in the area. It was
his impression that most of the musicians involved with choral music
were superficial in their approach to it and were often not musically
prepared to penetrate more deeply into the literature nor to refine
26
the techniques of choral performance. Poor intonation by some
choruses had persisted for so long that the conductors were no longer
aware of intonation as a problem.
The conductor must constantly strive to refine his musicianship
and his awareness of musical problems if he expects to discover
appropriate solutions. It is a gross error to condone mediocrity by
telling a choral group that it is doing well if it is not doing well.
Only dedication to and honesty with the group one rehearses can result
in choral growth and improvement.
A part of a musician's growth in artistic concept and
sensitivity results from the technical and musical challenge posed by
the performance of compositions of the recognized masters. The
conductor who goes through life without leading the chorus, orchestra,
and soloists in the major works involving such musical forces cannot
have the vision nor the experience to cope with the finest music; he
cannot function in the musical "big leagues."
Musicological study, the awareness of musical form, and other
aspects of theoretical concern constitute a reasonable, but by no
means exclusive, basis for musical evaluation. Disappointedly, Wagner
feels that some musicians study a music score as they would labor over
a stamp collection or an algebraic formula. He cautions that a
conductor should be wary of the kind of detailed study which becomes
lost in its own mechanistic approach. The conductor must place faith
and a considerable reliance upon his musical intuition and imagination.
The direction taken by the creative and intuitive spirit, however, is
27
determined by the force exercised by the conductor's musicological,
theoretical, and performing background.
Because Wagner considers that his own musical maturation took
place rather slowly, he is convinced that musical intuition and the
capacity to recreate can be developed. The healthy growth of intuition
and creativity requires the constant challenge of new, and sometimes
infrequently performed, literature by the acknowledged master-composers.
First of all, the conductor should become acquainted with the major
composers in each of the significant eras of music history as well as
familiarizing himself with the musical elements peculiar to each style.
Fine choral music will make its logic and intelligence known through
musical form, through a text which is not banal, through a harmonic
structure which is not banal, and through thematic development which
establishes a real musical "direction."
Many choral conductors fail to reveal the artistic intelligence
of a musical work because they are overwhelmingly preoccupied with
"choral blend" and with a musically distorted "tone-color" effect.
There are occasions when choral blend is extremely important but there
are many other occasions which call for a primary emphasis upon drama.
The "Dies Irae" of Verdi's "Requiem" is a good example of the latter.
Conductors whose groups strive constantly for "barber shop" choral
blend and who use an interpretive "rubato" to excess demonstrate by
such emphasis their musical superficiality. Theirs is a lack of
intelligent imagination. Drama, at least to the extent of an inherent
intensity, is present in all great musical art. A conductor's failure
28
to sense the drama will, in most cases, result in a failure to
communicate the composer's message.
Wagner suggests that the choice of fine choral literature for
an organization is one of the conductor's constant and most critical
responsibilities. When selecting choral literature, a knowledge of the
major composers and a knowledge of compositional styles provides a
background which serves as a reference standard. In the search for
good music, it is far more important to know about composers and about
stylistic elements than to be concerned about an especially good
source of supply.
Exemplary music should consist of textual, harmonic, and
melodic expressions which are mutually enhancing. In the homophonic
style of the chorale type of composition, the artistic quality and the
intelligibility of the text become of paramount importance. Contra
puntal literature depends heavily upon the music itself to express the
prevailing mood and to communicate the essence of the text.
Worthy music demands attention and intelligent study by the
conductor prior to the occasion of its first re-creation in rehearsal.
The majority of choral conductors profess the desire to prepare
themselves musically for each rehearsal but claim insufficient time as
the reason for their failure to do so. For himself, Wagner suggests
that he can ascertain the problems inherent in "simple pieces" aftera
glance or two. When studying more extended works, however, he must
29
sit down at the piano and go through the music thoroughly, ascertain
ing the potential difficulties and detemining the techniques necessary
to solve the problems.
It is neither necessary nor possible for the members of a
choral group to share all that a conductor recognizes in a piece of
music. The significant aspects of musical style may be stressed,
together with a brief discussion of the composer's intent, but the
normal rehearsal does not permit sufficient time to go into greater
detail. In actual practice, Wagner says that he makes comments to the
choir concerning the artistic intent of the music and especially
emphasizes the responsibility of the voice to communicate^ the prevail
ing musical mood. It does not seem unreasonable that a choir which is
technically rehearsed very well, and which is under the direction of a
leader who combines a thorough knowledge of the music with an ability
to inspire singers, should produce high-quality performances.
Wagner's central idea concerning the question of the necessity
for a singer's musical insight is that most young people reflect the
conductor's attitude toward music. They will understand and believe
in the music as the conductor shows them the way. Therefore, the more
deeply a conductor can penetrate the music, and the more closely
identified with it he can become, the greater will be the choral
affection for the music. From any point of view, it is of fundamental
importance that the conductor be convinced of the validity of his
musical discrimination as well as enthusiastically convincing in his
rehearsal approach.
30
The selection of voices for a choral organization is one of
the conductor's first and most consequential responsibilities. When
Wagner selects women's voices for his choir, he searches for voices
which will integrate easily with the group. Voices which integrate
easily possess a purity of sound which is neither over-nasal nor
guttural. The voice needs to have a vital kind of efficiency but it
must be controlled. He is always wary of the vocal vibrato which
vibrates either preponderantly above or below the pitch. Such a
vibrato is typical of many solo voices. The concern for integration,
purity, and control stems from the view that choral performance should
produce the effect of ensemble without the protrusion of individual
voices.
Voices which integrate easily are often voices which match
each other in general tone quality. Wagner finds that arranging his
choir as a series of mixed vocal quartets often enhances voice
matching, musical awareness, and musical responsiveness. The possessor1
of an unusually fine vocal instrument is sometimes the most reluctant
person to respond to rehearsal suggestion because he feels neither the
humility nor the desire to lend his voice to an ensemble effort.
The problems of blend among male voices are not so acute.
Because tenor voices normally constitute the major tone quality
problem, Wagner searches for tenors who are able to sing a high "head
tone" as well as a vital fundamental tone. He rarely asks tenors to
sing legitimately in the high register because of blending difficul-
31
ties. Only in the most dramatic music, as in the "Triumphal March"
from Verdi's "Aida," does he require full-voice, high-register tenor
singing.
As he works for the choral tone which he desires, the use of
the "falsetto" voice is heavily stressed. Tenors and altos are
vocalized to "E flat" above the treble staff until the sound of both
sections becomes integrated. The more completely integrated the sound
becomes in this range, the more difficult it becomes to identify the
sound as being male or female in quality. It is better to avoid using
singers who cannot produce a good "head-tone." Because collegiate
organizations traditionally lack the very highest and the very lowest
voices, he is careful not to select overly-dramatic music which might"
be beyond their vocal capacities.
High among the requirements for admission to Roger Wagner's
collegiate choral organization is the ability to read music. He feels
that much more music can be covered when the "vocabulary" of music is
present. He observes further that the singer who can read music
possesses both greater vocal security and a better developed musical
consciousness. This enhanced musical awareness of rhythm, melody, and
the phrase is of more importance than the quality of the voice.
The fact that a substantial number of the music students at
U.C.L.A. do not read music well constitutes one of Wagner's deep
concerns. He feels strongly that there has been a failure on the part
of music educators to teach music reading effectively. The syllables
of "solfeggio" constitute the most practical approach to the music
32
reading problem, according to Wagner, and he has carried on a twenty-
five-year "crusade" to convince public school and college teachers of
the necessity for teaching it.
He recommends that all students at all levels in the public
schools be taught to read music as they are taught other basic
subjects. The solfeggio requirement in European schools, to which
this recommendation would be similar, he believes to be a very
beneficial discipline. As a minimum requirement beginning in the
second grade, Wagner recommends that elementary school children should
study solfeggio for two half-hour periods each week. High school
students should devote at least two forty-five minute periods to
solfeggio each week and college students should devote at least two
hours a week to genuine sight singing. By "genuine sight singing,"
he refers to the singing of new music at sight without repetition, so
that the emphasis is placed upon an awareness of rhythm and interval
recognition. Failure to press on with unfamiliar music permits the
student to rely excessively upon musical recollection and imposes
some degree of rote learning.
It is his contention that one of the fundamental reasons for
the lack of emphasis upon music reading in the schools stems from the
"musicological" approach to music education employed by many colleges.
The musicologically oriented college is no longer interested in
hearing and performing music. Instead, such a college treats the art
as a sort of professional hobby in which the significance of minutiae
exceeds that of music itself.
33
Among the results which should accompany a strong sight
singing program in the schools, Wagner believes that choral musicians
could rehearse and perfect much more music literature in much less
time. Choral organizations could perform much music for which there
was formerly neither the time nor the technical ability. Further,
the conductor’s rather common occupational hazards of musical frustra
tion and bitterness should become less prevalent because of the
singers’ ability to render an honorable reading of the music at the
first attempt. The individual members of a choral organization would
demonstrate a heightened interest in their activity because music
reading ability would relieve .them of the drudgery of being taught by
rote. He does not suggest that sight singing ability is a criterion
of musical artistry. Rather, it is a skill which can facilitate music
study and which can increase the attainable potential of artistic
refinement.
Of the non-musical factors which Wagner considers when
selecting choral voices, interest is paramount. He is very much aware
that an interested singer, possessing but a mediocre voice, will be a
super-attentive singer in rehearsal and one who will reflect with
enthusiasm the conductor's every wish. The contributions of such
people to group morale and to prevailing attitudes are of much
significance.
The opposite kind of person— the prima donna— is much less
prevalent in collegiate organizations than in professional groups.
Such a person normally possesses a good vocal instrument but joins a
34
choral group for purposes of self-glorification. Sin* -rs -who are
vocally self-impressed seldom exhibit humility before the art of music.
They are consequently reluctant to subject themselves, mentally or
musically, to the conductor’s suggestions. He can recall several
prima donnas -who, by their attitudes and actions, ruined some of his
choral groups as well as some of his performances. Conductors who
detect evidence of such attitudes among their singers should purge
either the attitude or the singer from the organization immediately.
Choral seating arrangements of a number of different kinds
have been tried by Wagner but he most prefers to group his singers in
mixed quartets. This arrangement, he feels, produces a fuller sound
and, because each person is in closer proximity to the rest of the
harmonic structure, results in less likelihood of the group being
adversely affected by poor acoustics. The quartet system works very
well with homophonic music and has been used with good success with
contrapuntal literature. The problem of cueing vocal entrances is
solved by simply placing greater responsibility upon the singer for
knowing his music well.
Wagner does not feel that, for him, the extensive use of
student officers in his choral organization is of much benefit. He is
helped by some students who work with his music library and with the
choir robes. Other details, he feels, need to be supervised by him so
that organization for the sake of organization is not necessary.
Many schools maintain extensive music scholarship programs but
such is not the case at U.C.L.A. He suspects that the lack of such a
35
program may be one of the factors which results in the difficulty they
experience in maintaining an orchestra. Lack of scholarships has
apparently exercised little detrimental effect upon his A Cappella
Choir at U.C.L.A. Many of the choir members give up their lunch hour,
while graduate students take the course without credit, just so they
may sing. It is apparently the love for music and the love for
singing which draws the choir together inasmuch as no more than 60 per
cent of the group receives academic credit for participation.
Though the U.C.L.A. scholarship program is very limited, he
supports the idea of granting financial aid to students who are both
talented and needy. The tvro-fold benefits would provide better
student material for the college and would simultaneously extend an
opportunity to the student who deserves it.
Wagner acknowledges that crowded student schedules are often
responsible for rehearsal attendance problems. As the most satis
factory solution, the conductor should rely primarily upon his ability
to inspire and to create enthusiasm among the singers for their work.
Beyond that, and for the student whose perspective is grade-oriented,
the conductor may issue letter grades which are based strictly upon
the'frequency of attendance. Wagner, himself, enforces the policy
vigorously, granting an "A" only to the person whose attendance has
been perfect. Neither sickness nor any other reason constitutes an
excusable absence. Perfect attendance implies that a student has been
exposed to the maximum of rehearsal, that he knows his music well, and
that he may be counted upon to contribute his full share of the
36
performance effort.
It is not uncommon for performing choral organizations to
receive each year an enormous number of invitations to sing. He feels
that at least two points of view may be assumed when considering this
matter. From the point of view of the musical development of the
student, frequent performance of the same choral program is not

I
desirable because the student's range of familiar music becomes
necessarily restricted. If the point of emphasis is one of developing
performance standards, then the repetition of literature in perform
ance can lead to certain refinements. The student who performs the
same material repeatedly may ultimately become resentful because he
fails to respond creatively to such repetition. Another student may
become weary of the strain of uncertain performance if he is constant]y
pressed to sing new literature for which there has been insufficient
preparation time. In Wagner's opinion, two or three major concerts
each year, using new materials, would be an optimum performance
schedule for a major choral organization. I
Such a performance schedule, particularly at the college
level, should involve an increased emphasis upon the larger and more
extended choral works. This kind of emphasis would automatically
curtail the kind of choral program which traditionally consists of
from fourteen to eighteen three-minute selections. He contends that
the larger works for chorus are better able to impress upon the
student the elements of musicianship together with a sense of real
accomplishment. So many of the short selections are of the kind meant
37
to keep people from becoming bored.
The general level of a choral organization's morale is directly
related to the personality of the conductor— his sense of humor, his
knowledge of subject matter, his dedication to the students and to the
music. The conductor, as a leader who inspires confidence, must have
convictions which stem from a background that justifies authority.
An authoritative enthusiasm need not register satisfaction with every
musical attempt by the chorus. It is the conductor's responsibility
to be constructively critical of music performance rather than of
personalities. Humor may be very effectively used to temper criticism.
The combination of choral and orchestral forces required for
many of the major musical works often presents the problem of whether
the orchestra or choral conductor will provide the performance
leadership. At U.C.L.A. there is the understanding that musical works
for the combined forces are conducted by Wagner. Some justification
for this decision lies in the fact that he often conducts the same
compositions with his professional chorale and the Los Angeles
Philharmonic Orchestra. He acknowledges that many instrumental
musicians consider all choral conductors to be incapable orchestral
leaders. Though there are choral conductors whose styles are
insufficiently clear for orchestras, the general categorization of all
choral musicians on this basis is unwarranted. Because instrumen
talists are accustomed to assuming the responsibility for counting
their own note values and rests, he considers orchestras more easily
conducted than choruses. At the college level, a composition for
33
chorus and orchestra should be conducted by a choral person.
In rehearsal Wagner does little to calculate the sequential
arrangement of his music unless he feels that the group may be too
tired near the conclusion of a session to attack a difficult passage. |
When he is preparing choral works of major proportions, however, he
predetermines to a considerable extent the placement of rehearsal
emphasis and the expectation of certain accomplishments. Under such

I
circumstances, Wagner has already solved his own specific conducting
problems and knows exactly which choral sections he will attack first
and which methods are likely to solve the choral problems involved.
He often prefers to use a fugal or contrapuntal selection as a
choral "warm-up" rather than to take rehearsal time for mechanical
vocalizing. In order to gain musical clarity as well as a more

iI
appropriate tone, he uses "lah" when more brilliance is needed and
"lay" or "mo" when a darker and more flexible tone is required. "Mo"
I
and "no" are effective liquescents for enhancing vocal resonance.
The rehearsal is a time for singing. Wagner does not believe
that the choral rehearsal should be a time for lectures by the
conductor though he admits that musicians, who are frequently extro
verts, have a tendency to engage in too much discussion. What is said,
however, must arise from the conductor's thorough insight and must
penetrate the problem directly. In no way does he predetermine at
what point in a rehearsal he will make a particular comment though he
39
suggests that a sense of humor, even in the midst of rehearsal, is
very important.
When a choral work is being rehearsed for the first time, he
insists that the chorus sing it through without stopping. He
considers it a challenge for the singer to negotiate the notes for the
first time— mistakes and all. Such a challenge results in more alert
music reading as the group learns to look ahead and to anticipate
melodic intervals and rhythmic patterns. More emphasis is placed on
detail during the second reading and, with each successive repetition,
he becomes more particular. A knowledge of orchestration and of
orchestral techniques is a very helpful rehearsal insight when a
conductor is trying to anticipate choral responsibilities in an
orchestrally accompanied composition.
As Wagner speaks of choral tone, he invariably refers to a
purity of sound and to an integrated or blended sound which has
vitality but never seems forced. The pure sound characteristically
lacks heavy vibrato and consists of a clarity which is neither weighty
nor breathy. The tone is said to have a forward focus or placement
and is sung through the most spacious oral cavity. For a proper
balance of such a tone among the choral sections, he prefers a slight
predominance of the male voices. This is particularly true of the low
bass voice.
Efforts to achieve the desired tone have led Wagner to expect
certain quality problems which appear to be inherent with the choral
sections. Tenors must be cautioned to give constant consideration to
40
the head-tone in order to avoid a protruding harshness of sound. The
altos become difficult to control if they are permitted to indulge in
the tendency to sing in a guttural or "chesty" manner in the middle
register. Sopranos, when singing upper tones, frequently sing under
the pitch and develop excessively shaky vibratos. The basses often
curl their tongues in such a way that the tone sounds deep and rich to
the singer but sounds muffled and choked to the listener. When these
vocal inequities have been remedied, the remaining aspects of tonal
balance are determined by the stylistic characteristics of the music
itself.
One of the significant components of the sound for which
Wagner strives consists of the uniform handling of vowels by the
entire choral group. He finds that the only vowel capable of being
produced with reasonable uniformity, at the outset, is the long "u"
vowel. Using that vowel as the reference standard, the remaining
vowels, "a," "e," "ah," and "o," are practiced in an attempt to keep
the tone focused in the same place. Vowel uniformity greatly enhances
the fusion of ensemble sound and helps to avoid the violent "tone-
color" changes characteristic of haphazard vowel production.
"Choral line" is an expression which applies to the horizontal
movement of the kind of phrase found in virtually all music, with the
exception of the most rapidly contrapuntal. Unless the conductor
develops a sensitivity to horizontal phrase flow, his phrases will be
crudely drawn and he will lack one of the essential qualities of the
choral artist. Wagner confesses to know of no collegiate group which
41
possesses a well-developed "choral line."
Clearly articulated choral attacks, releases, and rhythms are
all manifestations of a conductor’s coordinated musical concept and
stem directly from his rhythmic consciousness. The sense of rhythmic
proportion, and any excitement which may lie therein, must become
absorbed by the conductor's personality before it can be expressed.
The visible expression of any aspect of the musical idea
necessarily concerns the realm of conducting. On the subject of the
purpose and function of choral conducting, he expresses bitter
opposition to any style which involves unnecessary mannerisms.
Conducting with the shoulders, developing little "hooks" in the
conducting pattern, and using the retarded beat for a delayed choral
entrance are all unnecessary conducting mannerisms. Such eccentrici
ties most often reveal that the person has not worked on his conduct
ing. Affected motions contribute nothing to the music but they do,
in fact, constitute a distraction.
The essential qualities of a conductor's motions are
simplicity and a natural kind of directness. Conducting should
transmit to the instrumentalist or to the singer, the spirit as well
as the technique of the phrase. In order to reflect the whole thought
behind a phrase, the conductor needs to use his hands, his eyes, his
face, and his body as expressive media. Too often, the conductor
moves his hands while the face remains stoic. This can be neither
convincing nor inspiring to the singer. The flamboyant conductor, by
virtue of his excessive movement, reflects false values, insincerity,
42
and self-glorification. His motions imply music which is neither
written nor heard.
The conductor should strive to refine his conducting technique
so that it increasingly resembles the texture of the music. Each
motion should have its audible manifestation. With this concept in
mind, Wagner believes that there is fundamentally no difference
between instrumental and choral conducting. The conducting style
needs to be in character with the music and should look as the music
is to sound, regardless of the producing medium.
The first cause of pitch problems among choral groups is the
lack of pitch consciousness on the part of the conductor. It is
possible for out-of-tune singing to be so persistent that it
eventually begins to sound quite normal to the conductor. The
responsibility of choral leadership demands a constant alertness so
that a singer may be corrected at the slightest indication of faulty
intonation. Singers must develop the habit of "thinking" a pitch
before they sing it.
Other elements which contribute to poor choral intonation are
faulty tone production, physical fatigue, key signatures which impose
an awkward vocal range, and bad acoustics. Requesting a "lighter"
sound from the singers and transposing a selection to a higher key can
often help to alleviate the under-pitch effects of fatigue. To
improve poor acoustics, Wagner often removes the heavy curtains from
a stage area and tries to place behind his singers something made of
wood. Wood is an excellent resonator and sound enricher.
43
The most obvious criterion for the selection of festival
chorus music is that it must be technically accessible to the singers.
Wagner prefers to use original compositions by the master composers:
compositions -which have undergone neither transcription nor arrangement
but exist as they were originally conceived. He has witnessed the use
of much festival music which was either too simple or too difficult.
The vocal range of some festival literature is subject to question
when low "D's" are written for high school basses and high "B flats"
precipitate the sopranos into a shout. He views as being completely
erroneous the contemporary assumption that "light" music is all that
the public understands while "heavy" music is beyond the normal
intelligence.
The first responsibility of the festival chorus conductor is
to apply his personality to the rehearsal situation so that he wins
the confidence of the group. When the chorus demonstrates a willing
ness to follow the conductor's suggestions, then the worst problems of

I
tone quality, balance among the vocal sections, and the difficult
musical passages may be attacked. Again, Wagner emphasizes that
rhythmic precision constitutes one of the strongest unifying elements.
The matter of the prior musical preparation of the festival
chorus singers is perhaps the most difficult to solve of all the
problems because the conductor has practically no control over it.
Many of the singers have an adequate knowledge of only the music which
they have performed on their own school concerts. Beyond that limited
44
repertoire, the singers grope for their parts and demonstrate the
slowest kind of response to the conductor. The individual teachers of
the participating groups must accept the full blame for such a state
of affairs.
The weaknesses which Wagner most frequently observes in the
field of choral music are related to the conductor. Poor phrasing,
the failure to observe dynamic markings, and a lack of insight
concerning the appropriate musical style, all come under the heading
of poor musicianship. Conductors fail to give adequate stress to
accurate pitch and intonation. He feels that the use of a distorted
tone quality which does not fit the style of the music being sung is
an indication of a "methodized" adherence to the tone of a "choral
school." The bases for such weaknesses lie both with the inadequate
person and with his inadequate training.
Significant among the elements which he feels are pertinent to
the training of choral conductors is the study of the outstanding,
recognized choral works of all periods in music history. The
potential conductor should steep himself in the tradition of the
ancient chant, and in a study of the music and stylistic characteris
tics of the Polyphonic, Baroque, Classical, and Romantic eras as well
as of contemporary music.
As Wagner played a tape recording of his collegiate A Cappella
Choir, he again emphasized the importance of choral exposure to music
45
of the early chant and the Renaissance period. He suggested that a
concentration upon chant can develop a highly refined sense of
intonation, subtly flexible phrasing, and an excellent concept of the
legato, horizontal "line." Tragically, too many musicians consider
J. S. Bach to be the earliest composer of musical importance.
As a concluding comment, Wagner encourages every choral
conductor to entertain consistently the highest hopes for the success
and achievement of his chorus because it -will ultimately reflect the
finest capacities of its conductor.
The rehearsal observed by the writer and conducted by Roger
Wagner involved the musical preparation of members of the U.C.L.A.
A Cappella Choir for a radio broadcast of Christmas songs. The
rehearsal took place in the music building on the campus of U.C.L.A.
Inasmuch as the rehearsal and the recording session took place at a
time which was not a regularly scheduled choir period, the group was
composed of choir members who were available at that time. Therefore,
the numerical composition of each choral section was not representative
of the organization at its full strength.
Seated semicircularly on a series of raised levels, the
sections of the choir were arranged so that the sopranos, altos,
tenors, and basses were located, respectively, from left to right of
the conductor. There were ten sopranos, eighteen altos, nine tenors,
and eight basses. Several of the singers on the group’s periphery had
46
placed their music on music stands and had chosen to remain standing
rather than to sit. A number of the music stands were located in such
a way that, when a singer referred to his music, his line of vision
was not directed toward the conductor. From time to time, that
arrangement appeared to be partially responsible for the weak or
sporadic kind of choral attack.
Without vocalization exercises or any kind of choral "warm-up,"
the rehearsal began with a complete reading of the first selection.
From the outset, it was apparent that the conductor had already
prepared himself very well. Wagner led most of the rehearsal without
reference to the music score, whether he was conducting the group or
demonstrating a musical passage at the piano. Prior to the rehearsal
of each selection, he would briefly comment upon the essential
stylistic characteristics and would point out to the group the
procedures for achieving certain special effects. He worked very
rapidly and evinced the authority of one who knew exactly what he
wanted. His corrections and suggestions were expressed in the most
economical terms but in a manner which appeared to penetrate the
problem directly. His absolute knowledge of the musical phrasing,
breathing points, important notes in important harmonies, the
ideological intent of each selection, and the solutions to probable
difficulties indicated a considerable amount of pre-rehearsal
preparation.
Wagner's personality before the group was exemplary of the
enthusiasm for and the complete intellectual commitment to the music
47
which he expected from the singers. There was an authoritative kind
of intensity and excitement in his voice as he spoke and as he
demonstrated choral effects. His eyes and his face were unreservedly
reflective of the same kind of intensity. let, in spite of the display
of emotional activity, his mind seemed to be always alert to the
slightest deviation from technical accuracy.
The nature of the conductor's comments to the choir seemed
always for the purpose of engendering a more energetic identification
with the music. There was an excitement to be expressed in every
musical style. The strain upon the choir, imposed by the persistent
demands of an -unrelenting pace, was frequently punctuated by the

i
conductor's humor. Humor served as the vehicle for the expression of
nearly all of the conductor's musical criticisms and suggestions.
Often he would cleverly phrase his observations by using common student
expressions or by referring to familiar elements of campus life. The
chorus, in spite of enthusiastic laughter, was generally successful in
sensing and adjusting to the intent of each comment. When the chorus
was not successful in remedying an error, the humor gradually
disappeared and was replaced by demands of increased severity.
The philosophic idea related to a musical composition was often
emphasized by Wagner as he worked to effect a desired texture.
Technical solutions to vocal problems were normally considered within
the framework of artistic and intellectual validity. He had apparently-
related the matter of musical style to technical execution on previous
occasions because he was able to refer to the "madrigal" and effect an
immediate refinement of choral texture.
The rhythmic consciousness expressed by Roger Wagner's
conducting was unquestionably among the most apparent aspects of his
rehearsal technique. An enormous amount of rhythmic energy was
communicated by his hands, his face, and his body. Because the chorus
was not especially familiar .with the music, the imminence of the
recording session brought all the more pressure for efficient rehearsal
to bear upon the conductor. Choral attacks and vocal cues were given
with great strength but never with flamboyance. Though individual
choral entrances were normally indicated with one hand, the incisive
quality of those movements was employed by both hands for the major
portion of the conducting. When one choral section predominated
briefly with a phrase containing more melodic movement, he would turn
to that section with an extremely clear illustration of the subdivided
beat. The emphasis upon such subdivision not only impressed the
respective choral sections with the musical importance of their parts,
but seemed to bring about a cohesive ensemble control through an
articulation of the fundamental rhythmic pulse. The infectious sense
of power communicated by the ensemble's rhythmic unity was immediately
felt by the writer. Subdividing the beat was not accomplished with
large motions of the forearm. Rather, the pulses were indicated by a
series of regular, muscular spasms— of tensions and relaxations— of
the hand, from the wrist to the fingertips. As the hands functioned
in that way, the foreaim traced the larger, basic pattern of the meter.
Again, emphasized and deliberate motion was employed on cadences to
49
enhance the sense of finality at phrase endings.
Wagner's communication of emotion and energy was by no means
limited to the use of his hands. His face and eyes— even his body—
were often more obvious than were his hands in expressing the dramatic
intent of the music. All manner of smiles, grimaces, and expressions
of anguish accompanied free movements of the torso as he strove to
illustrate musical ideas with which his singers were, as yet,
unfamiliar. Exaggerated conducting movements seemed to accompany
initial choral attempts at the music. Wagner would often take several
rapid steps toward a section of the choir in order to heighten their
impression of an important phrase. Subsequent choral efforts,
exhibiting an improved grasp of interpretive ideas, required conducting
of a less vigorous nature.
At no time during the rehearsal was there any choral attempt
to produce a particular tone quality apart from the music itself. The
tone exhibited by all sections of the U.C.L.A. choir was placed
forward in the mouth and was produced with limited vibrato. During
musical passages of rapid movement, and particularly at cadence points,
vibrato was almost totally absent. Wagner became very disturbed if
vibrato existed in any voice to the extent of obscuring a given pitch.
Rather than to try by technical means to increase vocal intensity, he
directed his conducting and verbal efforts to excite the singers.
The resulting tonal characteristic of the group was one of sustained
intensity which stemmed from a concept of a "continuing tone" rather
than a louder tone. The "continuing tone" was Wagner's approach to
50
the familiar choral concept of "legato line."
In order to balance harmonies and to strengthen melodies, the
conductor would occasionally switch a few singers from one voice part
to another voice part. There was no sense of the "heaviness" or of
the "darkness" typical of tone which is produced at the rear of the
mouth and in the throat. The purity and the frontal placement of the
sound alleviated the potential problems of integrating and blending
the ensemble voices. One of the deviations from that type of tone
production occurred during a choral passage in which the group was to
sing softly and was, at the same time, to sound distant. To achieve
that effect, Wagner asked the choir to inject a "breathiness" into the
tone but to consider it still as a "continuing tone." The result was
a sound of intimacy and yet of vitality.
Comments concerning the use of vowels and consonants were more
significant than numerous. Emphasis was upon a uniformity of vowel
exaggeration during passages which were intended to be "legato."
Exaggerating the vowel had the effect of extending its duration and
resulted in a much smoother phrase. Consonant sounds were produced
with a high degree of energy and, of themselves, contributed a
vitality to the musical phrase. Of equal importance to the vocal
texture, the energized consonant imparted an intensity to the
subsequent vowel sound and thus continually renewed the excitement.
The same kind of energetic emphasis was applied to the liquescent
sounds of "m" and "n" with a resulting resonance which retained the
full measure of intensity.
51
The combination of Wagner's musical authority, dynamic energy,
and quick-witted humor appeared to have completely captured the minds
and the imaginations of the choir members for the entire four-hour
session. The eagerness with which the group tried to do the thing
which would please its conductor seemed an ample justification for
the methods employed.
Summary
The following statements comprise some of the more significant
ideas which the interviewee expressed in his discussion of the several
categories of questions.
A. Music training and teaching experience
1. Wagner learned to read music at an early age and,
because of a close association with Catholicism,

I
developed a strong musical background in the Greek \
I
modes, Gregorian chant, and in Renaissance music. j
2. His doctoral dissertation on the "Masses of Josquin
Des Pres" served to deepen a knowledge of Renaissance
and mediaeval music.
3. The will to succeed, stemming from impoverished student
years in France, contributed to the tenaciousness of a
competitive spirit.
4. Dissatisfaction with extant choral practices, together
with the experience of having worked with singers of
all ages, provided the motivation and some of the
52
techniques which helped to produce his first
professional choral organization.
B. Music philosophy
1. All music is the expression of an idea.
2. Vocal tone quality has the capacity to reflect the
philosophy of a given compositional era or of a
specific musical idea.
3. Vocal techniques must be developed to the point of an
ability to express the musical idea without interfering;
with it.
4. Every choral conductor should know the great choral
works, and the styles of which they are exemplary, if

I
he would develop his musical discrimination and his !
musical insight.
5. The degree of greatness of a conductor is related to

i
his ability to probe deeply into the music and to !
influence his singers to perform at a level above J
their normal capacities.
6. Drama, at least to the extent of an inherent intensity,
is present in all good music.
7* The listener is not primarily interested in the voice
but in what the singer has to "say" musically.
8. Musical intuition and the capacity to re-create, if
it exists at all, can be developed.
53
C. Choral literature concepts
1. Knowledge of the major composers and a knowledge of
compositional styles can provide a high-quality
standard of reference for the selection of choral
literature.
2. Mutually enhancing textual, harmonic, and melodic
expressions are indications of good choral literature.
3. It is neither necessary nor possible for members of a
choral group to share all that a conductor recognizes
in a piece of music.
4. Singers normally reflect the conductor's attitude
toward the music.
5. The more deeply a conductor can penetrate the music,
and the more closely identified with it he can become,
the greater will be the choral affection for the music.!
D. Choral organization concepts
1. The most satisfactory voice for ensemble purposes is
the easily integrated voice which possesses a tonal
purity and one which can be controlled so that neither
stridency nor excessive vibrato protrudes.
2. The good ensemble singer should possess the the
"vocabulary of music" as demonstrated by his ability
to read music.
3. Students at all levels in the public schools should
be taught to read music as they are taught other basic
54
subjects.
4. The general ability to read music would have an
enormously revitalizing effect upon music activity
across the country.
5- The conductor's ability to inspire his singers is the
most significant contributor to good group morale and
to regular rehearsal attendance.
E. Rehearsal techniques and choral concepts
1. The conductor should know the music so well that his
comments may be brief and yet penetrating.
2. Clearly articulated choral attacks, releases, phrases,
and rhythms are aspects of a coordinated musical
concept which stems from the conductor's rhythmic
consciousness.
3. Conducting style should be in character with the
music, so that it appears as the music is to sound and
so that each motion has its audible manifestation.
4. The primary cause of persistent choral intonation
problems is the lack of pitch consciousness on the
part of the conductor.
F. Factors related to festival choruses
1. When selecting festival chorus music, compositions
by the master composers, which are technically
accessible to the singers, should be given first
consideration.
55
2. The conductor's first rehearsal responsibility is to
apply his personality to the situation so that he may
van the confidence and the willing efforts of the
group.
3- In a U choral situations, rhythmic precision
constitutes one of the strongest unifying elements.
G. Choral weaknesses and recommendations
1. Poor musicianship on the part of many conductors is
most frequently observed and may be attributed to
either the inadequate person or to inadequate training.
2. The study of music literature and the study of
compositional styles characteristic of all periods in
music history should be a part of every conductor’s
training.
3. The best reason for continued effort at higher
achievement lies in the fact that choruses normally
and ultimately reflect the finest capacities of their
conductors.
H . The rehearsal
1. The conductor evidenced a thorough knowledge of the
music.
2. His conducting style and the nature of his comments all
demonstrated a predominating rhythmic consciousness.
3* In addition to technical suggestions, the quality of
the ensemble sound was effected through the conductor's
56
efforts to excite the singers musically.
4. Consonant sounds sung energetically were among the
most successful of the technical means for vitalizing
the choral tone.
5. Wagner's personality as a conductor was a combination j
of musical authority, dynamic energy, and quick-witted
humor.
The musical conviction from which so much of Wagner's
expression seemed to stem was that an intimate knowledge of a broad
range of fine choral literature, together with an insight concerning
the musical styles which most successfully project inherent drama,
can result in an ability to inspire great singing.
I
i
I
i
I
57
CHAPTER IV
AN ACCOUNT OF THE INTERVIEW WITH AND THE REHEARSAL
TECHNIQUES EMPLOYED BY CHARLES HIRT
On January 3 and January 5, 1961, the writer conducted
interviews with Dr. Charles Hirt on the campus of the University of
Southern California and at the First Presbyterian Church of Hollywood.
The statements which follow constitute an account of Dr. Hirt's
responses to a series of interview questions. The categorical
headings contained in this chapter correspond to similar categories
of questions which were posed to the interviewee. In no case did the
interviewer attempt to limit the response of the interviewee to a
specific answer to any question. Rather, the questions were intended
to stimulate the interviewee's thinking within a general area so that
concepts and ideas of importance to him might be revealed more freely.
The reader may wish to refer to Appendix D for a transcription of the
tape-recorded interview.
Later in this chapter an analytical account is given of a
rehearsal conducted by Dr. Hirt on the campus of the University of
Southern California on January 4, 1961.
Charles Hirt took his undergraduate education at Occidental
College in Los Angeles. Califomia, where he majored in both music and
education. He chose the double major so that he might qualify for
a teaching certificate at the conclusion of undergraduate study.
Occidental College, though a liberal arts institution, was nonetheless
noted at that time for having a strong Department of Education for the
training of teachers. The University of Southern California, where
Hirt earned both his master's and doctor's degrees, was musically
oriented more professionally than educationally. At that institution,
the approach to music was curricularly designed after the pattern of
the conservatory with its emphasis upon music theory and music
performance.
Of the early experiences which may have been significant to
his subsequent musical development, Hirt recalls his associations with
John Smallman. Smallman, more than any other person or any single
factor, was responsible for having directed Hirt's creative energies
into choral music. A nationwide tour with the Smallman A Cappella
Choir in 1929 v/as an indelible influence. Academic pursuits at
Occidental College constituted the major portion of his on-campus
activity, but Hirt feels that his most individual expression came
through a continuing study of voice and of conducting with Smallman.
The academic experiences which have been lasting and profound
in their effect upon Hirt's musical life stem from his study and
research for the doctorate. As a result of the development of an
undergraduate friendship, he became interested in Russian traditions,
so that the ultimate selection of a dissertation topic became one
of sentimental as well as of musicological importance to him. All
59
academic courses were of interest to the extent that they held
musicological implications for his study concerning the "Plainsong of
Orthodoxy as It Was Manifest Through the Graeco-Slavonic Branch of the
Byzantine Church."
The choral concepts which Hirt may have retained from his
years as an undergraduate student were those which were assimilated
from the example set by Smallman rather than from the collegiate
rehearsal example. Hirt recognizes that at no time have his choral
views been static. Rather, as an eclectic, he has been musically
affected by many people so that his choral concepts have changed over
the years. John Finley Williamson, Robert Shaw, Father Finn, Olaf and
Paul Christiansen, and even Hirt's own students have been among those
who have contributed to the composite of his choral viewpoint.
However, the eclectic accumulation of musical experiences from
personal associations does not imply that only imitation can result.
Hirt believes that no really mature musician has taken anyone1s choral
"method." Method, of itself, is necessarily arbitrary and should be
considered as a tern, appropriate only to the disciplines of the
undergraduate level. He feels that, for himself and for his students,
the exposure to a variety of choral styles and choral concepts serves
to impinge upon the thought and may act as a catalyst in the process
of arriving at an expression which is his own.
Basic choral techniques were learned at Occidental College,
while the subsequent experiences with Smallman and other individuals
were experiences of an "organic" and more subjective nature. The
60
assimilated total of his experiences has become for Hirt an artistic
expression which is uniquely his own. Beyond the limits of the
broadest goals and the most general concepts, he feels that a conductor
has no right to the arbitrary imposition of specific procedures upon
the student.
Hirt's public school teaching experience included three years
in a junior high school, three years in a senior high school, and two
years in a junior college. He considers his teaching years in the
public schools as having been invaluable because of the opportunities
to come to know youth and to become better acquainted with their
processes of maturation. At the University of Southern California
where, at this writing, he has been for nineteen years, Hirt can now
speak to students who will work with young people and authoritatively
discuss some of the problems of psychology, communication, and
attention span which they are likely to encounter.
The range of his teaching responsibilities at the university
has brought Hirt into association with the fields of music education
and musicology as well as the performance area of music. During his
first three years of university teaching, he was responsible for the
assignment and the supervision of the music student teachers in area
high schools and junior high schools. Classes in church music have
involved the study of music history as it relates to church music '
history, and the study of musicology as it relates to hymnology and
liturgical practices. The area of concentration for his Doctor of
Philosophy degree was also musicologically based.
t
61
The process of artistic maturation which ultimately brought
about a preference for the predominantly creative rather than for the
pedagogical aspects of music was basic among the forces which drew
Hirt into university teaching. He candidly admits that job security
and the likelihood of a dependable living were primary among the
initial motivators for entering the teaching profession. Soon,
however, he became aware of the intriguing process that is teaching,
so that he felt compelled to decline a subsequent offer to enter into
a professional musical outlet. He especially enjoyed an environment
which permitted him to share with young people his musical insight
and to witness their growth in the art.
Hirt's own musical insight continued to develop in such a way
that he became increasingly aware of a personal desire to work with
others who could understand his ideas better and who could share in
his discoveries. The desire finally led to university teaching, which
he has found to be highly satisfying to his needs. Musical technique,
as a pedagogical consideration, is not to be minimized, but Hirt
suggests that a greater professional effort be expended in the
direction of achieving a better balance between the processes of music
and the product of music. When music is considered an educational
"tool," it becomes an expendable dilution of the art. To acknowledge
that in music there is a realizable potential of spiritual truth and
of a power to affect positively the lives of people is to consider the
art within its most noble and exalted context. Such concepts have
provided the intellectual propulsion which has carried Hirt into areas
62
of expanded breadth and depth of musical inquiry.
Music Philosophy
Philosophically, Hirt believes that music in the United States
has passed through a period of sterility. For years, he suggests,
music has been considered as a kind of superficial adornment,
beautification, or entertainment which could be attractively applied
to the "external surface" of any situation. The Greek "doctrine of
ethos"— that music possessed the transcendent power to moralize or
demoralize a populace— was in no way given relevance.
Hirt advocates a return to the principle embodied in the Greek
concept of musical "ethos." He maintains that in music there is an
efficacy which can exalt the mind and the spiritual sensitivity of
mankind. The fuller realization of music's transcendental efficacy,
however, is exclusively dependent upon the musician's faith that such
power exists in the art. Faith alone enables the student to discover
the penetrating intelligence which lies within the pages of the music
score. Just as faith is necessary to the student for discovery, so is
faith essential to the composer who would seek to express his most
exalted ideals. The artistically idealized elements of profound
philosophic conviction found expression in early chants and in the
works of the sixteenth century master-composers. Music of such
penetration and of such perfection will not be inspired from contempo
rary composers until they reach an unshakable conviction of music's
fullest endowments, Hirt suggests.
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The singer's appreciation of the concept of musical efficacy,
says Hirt, has been severely limited because of the limitations
imposed by the superficiality of the conductor's concept. Choral
literature of the highest quality lies untouched and undiscovered
because its true value remains unrecognized. The development of
values and the search for things valuable must grow from the faithful
conviction that man's highest ideals and aspirations may be communi
cated with the absolute purity of truth.
Hirt believes that musicians have not had the opportunity to
realize that a faith in music's greater values can be developed.
Academic institutions founded upon the precept that music is an
exalted art rather than a series of procedures have not been available
to the inquiring young mind. The latent powers of capable young
students have remained undisturbed, just as much fine talent has been
wasted when energies have been applied to the mediocre challenge of
low-level musical values.
The decade of the 1950's, however, according to Hirt, has seen
great gains in the direction of realizing the power of the musical
product and in the direction of increased availability of the educa
tional process for promoting such faith. The existence of choral
conducting organizations, the growth of choral organizations, the
growth of church music departments, and increased interest on the part
of more people to enter into creative participation rather than into
the academic study of music are all evidences of a musical renaissance.
Hirt believes that the nation's musicians have begun to sense a
64
conscience-stricken dissatisfaction with the realization of the
peripheral consideration with which they have regarded musical art.
The development of a musical conscience is bringing about a
re-evaluation of attitudes and procedures. A partially restored sense
of musical humility has become the motivating force for a renewed
curiosity to search for the deeper meaning in fine literature. The
duty of the teacher is to motivate his students to probe music
literature to the maximum of their capacities by inculcating the faith
that a great good awaits discovery.
Hirt is reluctant to state that his philosophic views and
choral concepts have stemmed from either his own original thought or
from any specific source. He admits to the probability of having been
exposed to a number of ideas over the course of many years. However,
he is convinced that intellectual and experiential maturation must
take place before one has the capacity to put a given principle to
practical use. It is the stage of the maturation process which lends
cognizance to or which obscures the meaningful principle of experience
and of idea. A comment of significance in the mind of the teacher may
be respectfully noted by the student, while its full impact upon the
student may not be realized for several years. Hirt feels that,
because of the effect of maturation, conducting is exemplary of the
kind of course which cannot actually be taught. The nature of the
course is such that the interpretive motions can only be expressive of
a recognized and of an understood musical idea. For this reason, a
course in advanced conducting provides only an environment in which
65
ideas and opportunities for their investigation are presented. The
process of insight which transforms information into conviction is the
same process by which knowledge becomes wisdom.
At one time, Hirt selected his choral literature largely on
the basis of providing music which would typify the essence and the
style of the major compositional periods. He is still concerned, for
educational purposes, that a number of different musical styles be
represented on each choral program. In his current thinking, however,
the selection of music which contains an expression of emotions and
attitudes of sufficient prominence to be communicable to the listener
and to the performer is more important than stylistic variety. In
order to achieve more than style alone, music performance should
reflect a discrimination which recognizes the profundity with which a
composition relates man to man and man to God. Music is not so much
a vehicle for conveying specific ideas as it is a vehicle intended to
convey emotions and attitudes of mind which permit the growth of
ideas. The growth of ideas, and of attitudes concerning them,
ultimately becomes a philosophy. Thus, a music philosophy on the part
of the conductor may subsequently enhance philosophic growth among
others.
Hirt attributes a gradual change and growth in his
interpretative approach to choral music to a developing stylistic
insight. He admits a fondness for the sound of voices in ensemble
which, at an earlier time in his career, led him to dwell upon
sonority for the sake of sonority. He was predisposed to impose the
66
richness of impetuous emotion upon music of all compositional periods.
Repertoire which would lend itself to the fullest sound was sought
after. Growth in stylistic insight, however, brought about the
realization that the beauty of a style was depicted through tone
color. Further, the expression of beauty in a variety of styles
requires the use of a variety of colors. As an illustration of this
point, Hirt suggests that there is beauty in a cathedral as there is
beauty in a sunset. But to superimpose the beauty of one upon the
beauty of the other— by painting the cathedral the colors of the
sunset— would destroy the effectiveness of both. Similarly, to apply
the exuberant energies of the Baroque spirit to the purity and
refinement of Renaissance expression is to create the meaningless
confusion of antagonism.
The process of changing attitude regarding his approach to
stylistic interpretation was, for Hirt, an extended one. His new
points of view developed largely from a continuous exposure to the
literature in performance situations. He feels that the student of-
today may shorten the process considerably by virtue of the accelerated
learning made possible by more thorough and efficient teaching. The
propagation of the fundamental and critical concept of musical styles
is among the primary responsibilities of the academic institution.
A conductor reveals himself and much of his philosophy through
his choice of literature and through his approach to it. He reveals
himself through a rapport with his singers and through a rapport with
the music. His musical point of view and his artistic capacities are
67
expressed in the multi-directional efforts of communication. The
conductor must communicate with the composer through the symbols of
notation. Symbols are, at best, an inadequate musical indication^
the conductor must see past the re-creation of the notes to the
creation of the unprinted intent of the composer. The conductor's
musical philosophy bears immediately upon the direction and the nature
of his creativity.
To discharge well his leadership responsibilities, the choral
conductor should first be a sensitive and compassionate human being,
then a musician, and finally a teacher. Hirt acknowledges the
importance of knowing the techniques of teaching. Too many people,
however, have a notebook of techniques but have relatively little to
teach or to communicate. The country is crowded with teachers of
choral music who do not really understand or believe in the efficacy
of their art. They lack the conviction which an understanding of the
human and artistic values inherent in fine music can produce. In the
final analysis, musical values— those elements which the conductor has
discovered for himself and which have become a part of his being— are
of far greater importance than are mechanistic procedures. The
approach to music and the approach to people by the conductor who is
possessed by the conviction of musical values is typified by an
infectious zeal. Students become more closely identified with the
music and sing more expressively as they reflect the artistic
conviction of the conductor.
Institutions which prepare teachers must strive to inculcate
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and to permit the discovery of the potent philosophic values -which
will impart a meaningful practicality to the application of teaching
techniques. Hirt believes that too many institutions teach methods of
communication but do not help the student to assimilate significant
ideas to communicate. The conductor's most effective teaching device,
says Hirt, is his enthusiasm for music as an art, resulting from his
complete absorption in it.
As Hirt studies a piece of choral music prior to its
rehearsal, he uses the "Gestalt" approach by first experiencing the
total effect of the music and then moving into an analysis of the
parts. Experiencing the total effect of the music serves to highlight
the predominant musical idea central to the composer's intent. An
awareness of the central mood suggests the probability of certain
rehearsal problems which may arise -in the course of realizing the
pre-determined style of interpretation. The interpretive idea also
suggests the kinds of solutions which are likely to be most successful
in meeting the problems. Problem anticipation, and an estimation of
the time required to solve them, are necessary parts of literature
study and rehearsal pre-planning.
Hirt believes that a chorus needs a kind of music literature
insight, aside from technical accuracy, if it is to perform as he
would wish it to perform. Such an insight evolves from a combination
of sensitivity, maturity, and previous musical experiences. The
69
choral musician who has the capacity to sense beauty in both music and
his environment may mature mentally and emotionally in artistic
awareness with each musical experience. Given such sensitivity within
the membership of a choral organization, the conductor may condition
the group through empathy and verbal imagery to an ever-increasing
responsiveness to his own musical concept.
The vocal elements which Hirt considers vrtien he selects
singers for his organization fall into the categories of native
endowment and acquired techniques. A superior vocal instrument
constitutes an obvious advantage to its possessor. Equally important
to the superior singer, and of greater importance to the mediocre
singer, is the innate sensitivity to music which governs the artistic
use of vocal endowment. The presence of above average vocal and
musical endowment indicates at least a similar potential for improve
ment and is often accompanied by a vocal technique which demonstrates
a maximum assimilation from previous music experiences. Other
elements of selectivity involve a preference for music majors and a
required ability to read music.
Among the non-musical factors significant to Hirt's evaluation
of choral applicants are maturity and intelligence. The intelligently
mature person who demonstrates an interest in choral activity normally
has an attitude of interested receptivity. Such an attitude enables
the singer to make maximum use of his vocal equipment and to reflect
70
to his fullest capacity the suggestions of the conductor.
Hirt prefers the arrangement of choral sections which places
the male voices behind the female voices. At the rear of the chorus,
and from the conductor's left, he places the first tenors, second
tenors, baritones, and basses. The women's voices at the front of the
group are arranged from the left of the conductor as second altos,
first altos, second sopranos, and first sopranos. This seating
pattern, according to Hirt, is flexible enough to allow for the
accommodation of such unique musical demands as the balancing of
"divisi" sections and the balancing of chords with widespread and
unusual dynamic considerations. The highest and lowest voice parts
are in close proximity and consequently contribute to better choral
intonation.
Hirt has found it effective to encourage the implementation of
choral organization policy through the participation of student
officers. He believes, however, that regardless of the nature or the
amount of delegated responsibility, the regularly appointed conductor
himself is finally responsible for all decisions and action.
The current intercollegiate competition to attract student
musicians has had an effect of some reduction in the number and
calibre of music students coming to the University of Southern
California, says Hirt. The university has no "contrived" plan of
student recruiting, but depends upon faculty strength, curriculum
variety, and the known quality of the student product to attract its
enrollment. Hirt has not observed student exploitation or unethical
71
practices related to the conduct of other recruiting programs.
Hirt states that high morale is the best of all incentives for
maintaining good rehearsal attendance. The student who enjoys his
choral experience because he is challenged and because he is inspired
will not readily permit external influences to interfere with
rehearsal attendance. It is the conductor's responsibility to
challenge and to inspire so that group morale may be established and
maintained at a high level. Rules to enforce attendance become the
recourse, however, when morale is insufficiently high.
Choral directors are most often guilty of not permitting
sufficiently frequent performance by their groups, Hirt believes.
Rather than placing excessive concert demands upon choruses, many
conductors commit'themselves to a minimal appearance schedule which
inadequately motivates the learning process of the student. The
prospect of sharing musical accomplishment with an audience is a
powerful incentive for technical and artistic refinement. Excessive
performance demands, as smother extreme, are likely to result in
musical sterility unless a group is led by its conductor to re-create
or rediscover, rather than repeat, the music each time it is performed.
The renewed interest as a concomitant of musical rediscovery
is especially important to the kind of literature repetition which
concert tours involve. Hirt believes that infrequent tours can be
stimulating and helpful to singers. Tours can provide singers with
the experience not only of changing audiences and auditoriums but of
musical refinement which is artistic maturation. An individual's
72
scholastic standing and his skill with the repertoire upon a
re-audition are the main determinants for tour group selection.
Rehearsal preparation is the forethought necessary for the
conductor to discharge his obligation to the music and to the student
through effective rehearsal. (The procedure of pre-rehearsal analysis
which Hirt follows for each piece of music literature was discussed
in a previous section which dealt with choral literature concepts.)
Additional preparation by Hirt involves arranging the sequence of the
literature to be rehearsed for purposes of a calculated variety of
texture and mood. Hirt arbitrarily, but flexibly, predetermines the
elements which should receive special rehearsal emphasis and tries to
allow for special opportunities of an improvisatory nature which
cannot be apprehended.
On the subject of specific schools of choral thought which
impose a kind of stereotyped sound on all styles of music, Hirt bases
his evaluation upon the evidence of a sincere and preconceived philos
ophy. The matter of his agreement or of his disagreement with the
choral style does not affect his feeling of respect for the method, so
long as it represents the honest conviction of an intelligent human
being. The man who has arrived at his own unique method of musical
expression, as a result of mature and dedicated search, deserves far
more respect than does the man who offends the art of music through
the expectation that something good will happen if music is simply
73
performed. The mastery of the technique of "methodology" constitutes
a discipline imposed out of the recognition of weaknesses, whereas
the search for individual expression is oriented to the pursuit of
long-range goals and capitalizes upon the recognition of personal
strengths.
Choral tone is determined by the elements of both compositional
style and the mood which is basic to the idea to be communicated. The
composite ensemble sound is thus inferred from the music and must be,
of artistic necessity, capable of considerable variety. The imposition
of a fixed "tone color" upon all musical styles and upon a variety of
textual ideas implies a greater concern for the sound than for the
intellectualized emotion. A musical composition as objectified
emotion must once again become subjective in its re-creation, if the
emotion is to be communicated with intensity. An objective concern
for tone often precludes a subjective awareness of the musical idea.
Given singers who possess a vocal technique of reasonable proportions,
Hirt appeals for tonal or textural appropriateness on the basis of the
individual’s perceptive identification of mood within style.
The expression of the central musical idea and the motivating
direction of a faith in music's efficacy constitute the common bonds
accessible to all musicians. For these reasons "instrumental
conductors" and "choral conductors" are indistinguishable as inspirers
of artistic emulation. By simply adapting to the medium of expression,
their musical insight and conviction should enable them, as musicians,
to conduct music. Aside from the use of verbal imagery, and to a
74
considerable degree the use of physical empathy in his conducting,
Hirt employs no other technical devices to enhance group response to
his conducting.
Extrinsic factors and, for the most part, elements -which are
voluntarily uncontrollable by the singer constitute the chief causes
of poor choral intonation. Acoustics, musical characteristics, time
of day, climate, and associational factors all affect intonation as
much as faulty vocal production. Hirt purposely makes little comment
to his singers concerning intonation and almost never refers to
"flatting." He feels that it is important to counteract extrinsic
factors without depressing the singers by making them feel distressed.
Emphasis should be directed toward an intensified projection of the
musical idea, inasmuch as good intonation is the product of a creative
situation, free from "depressants."
Charles Hirt conducts festival choruses in many parts of the
country each year. The facts that such choruses are often very large
and that rehearsal time is often limited do not affect his method of
selecting music in general. He still searches for a variety of music
which captures the essence and the style of the major compositional
eras. Music selected for choral groups of any size should contain a
sufficiently prominent expression of emotions and attitudes so as to
be penetratingly communicable to the singer and to the listener.
Group size affects neither Hirt's method of selecting choral
75
literature nor his basic approach to a chorus in rehearsal. For small
and large groups alike, his approach always considers the art, the
singer, and the listener. He behaves much the same -with all sizes
of choruses. The elements basic to Hirt's approach to music and to
choral singing are discussed in previous portions of this chapter.
Among the general choral weaknesses which Hirt most frequently
observes is that of confusing the voice with the music. Conductors
too often fail to penetrate or to emphasize the intent of the music.
Rather, they use music literature as a vehicle for exploiting choral
"sound" and for purposes of virtuosic choral display. The emotional
and spiritual considerations of music interpretation are often con
fused with areas of technical concern. Contest adjudication forms err
in this way when they include the art of "interpretation" as one of
several technical achievements, as though it were no more or less
important nor different in degree and kind from "blend" and "balance."
Weaknesses of this kind stem partially from an inadequately sensitive
endowment on the part of the conductor and rather considerably from
faulty teacher preparation. Institutional emphasis upon the technical
processes of music falls far short of an inculcated belief in the
positive efficacy of the musical product. It is only within the
latter context that music may be considered within its most noble and
influential capacities.
As mentioned in the section dealing with music philosophy,
76
Hirt. believes that advanced choral conducting does not consist of a
technical procedure which can be taught in the manner of an academic
class. Only the opportunity to make discoveries and to find a means
of truly individual expression can be provided. The institution
responsible for the preparation of a conductor can do no more than to
accelerate and to abet the process of self-discovery. It can make
available to him music experiences; reveal to him the wealth of extant
literature; raise his artistic horizons by example; and increase the
faith of the individual in himself, in music, and in man. Under such
circumstances, if the individual potential exists, it will manifest
itself.
The rehearsal conducted by Charles Hirt and observed by the
writer involved a choral organization known as the University of
Southern California Chamber Singers. Consisting of only fifteen
voices, the highly select group held its rehearsal in the School of
Music building on the university campus. There were seven female
singers and eight male singers arranged alternately and seated
semicircularly in a single row.
The group appeared to have been organized for the purpose of
performing the smaller and more intimate musical forms of the madrigal
style. That the group was comprised of singers who were musically
experienced and who possessed a control of vocal technique was
evidenced by its sensitive and accurate musical response to the
77
conductor. Much of the literature which was rehearsed was being sung
for the first time by a majority of the members. Pitches were given
without the use of a mechanical device by one of the singers who
apparently possessed a sense of "absolute pitch." All of the choral
music contained foreign language texts and, though the group sang in
French, German, Italian, and Spanish, they read the music with fluency
and maintained a consistent tone production. Whether or not the group
fully understood the textual meaning of the music, each person seemed
at least to have the facility for reproducing the sounds peculiar to
each language.
The rehearsal began without any kind of "warm-up" vocalization.
The conductor's rehearsal preparation was first revealed by a
sequential list of rehearsal selections which he wrote on the chalk
board. Other evidence of planning was disclosed by the manner in
which the conductor was able to emphasize the basic intent of a
section by translating the foreign text; by the effect which stylistic
insight exercised upon phrasing and upon dynamics; and by the
apparently preconceived methods for practicing difficult rhythms and
for solving other inherent musical problems. Several times during the
rehearsal the conductor prepared the group for the unusual rhythms
which followed by having them speak the words in rhythm. After
speaking the words audibly, the group was asked to "mouth" the words
silently but in rhythm. The entire procedure emphasized rhythm and
text without imposing the additional distraction of melodic difficulty.
Though the ensemble displayed an above-average music reading ability,
73
initial efforts with the literature were not without rhythmic and
harmonic disagreement. It appeared to be among Hirt's considerations
that there were musical as well as psychological benefits which accrue
to the singer when he is permitted to sing an entire selection, for
the first time, without stopping.
The conductor's personality before the group, as expressed
largely through his comments, was one of tranquil optimism. Always
soft-spoken, he seldom made extended comments and always spoke in the
subjective abstraction of "color" words with which he sought to affect
the musical response of the group. The effort to establish an
emotional atmosphere and to communicate the underlying meaning of the
music, rather than referring to specific vocal techniques, seemed to
constitute the conductor's primary approach to artistic refinement.
After helping to determine the broad outline of the composer's
intent, Hirt urged the individual members to become more independently
creative. "Seek the meaning for yourself. What comes to you as you
sing it?" and "Submit yourself to the music.", he would say. Ideally,
the ensemble should discover and should so -understand its own valid
and unique expression that the conductor may join the group as a
performing partner rather than as the leader. The encouragement of
independent, artistic inquiry, through individual subjection to the
music, expressed the conductor's humility and his faith in the
capacities of the students.
Humor in the rehearsal never became hilarity. The gentleness
and courtesy which permeated the sophisticated vocabulary employed in
79
Hirtis general comments were present in his humor. Though always of
brief duration, mild forms of levity occurred with some frequency and
with comfortable spontaneity through the rehearsal. The group was
quite prepared to laugh at its own inadequacies, but they did not
appear to assume that the humor ivas a condonation of error.
The communication and the projection of musical "essence,"
which was the preoccupying concern of his commentary, appeared also to
be the central motivators for Hirt's conducting style. His identifi
cation with the musical idea and with the compositional style mani
fested itself in conducting movements which were more "impressionistic"
than "structural" in their expression. The conducting pattern itself
was frequently obscured by the overt movement which traced the outline
of a musical phrase. A reliance was placed upon an empathetic
approach, from which most technical considerations were inferred
rather than indicated. Rhythms were well articulated by the singers
as they became aware of the rhythmic demands of the "musical
personality" of a given phrase. Subdivisions of the basic rhythmic
pulse, however, were rarely indicated by the conductor. A very
expressive face combined with flamboyant body and arm movement of
"Thespian exaggeration" served to highlight the shape and the relative
importance of musical phrases. Broad and sustained music seemed to
bring about increasingly florid movements of arms and elbows which
became less and less orthodox in their uniqueness. While the wrists
displayed considerable flexibility, whether arm movement was broad or
restricted, the hands appeared to "float" constantly. As the rest of
80
the body was committed to a phrase, the hands would follow but did
not seem to contribute to the expression. A "liquid" kind of constant
finger motion was appropriate to the shaping of the gentle phrase, but
seldom seemed to contribute to rhythmic articulation or to tonal
intensity. One did not sense, however, that the movements, always
emotional and frequently "heroic," were in any way calculated for
superficial effect. Instead, there was the impression that all motion
stemmed from the most complete identification with and honest convic
tion of an artistic idea. Such a commitment was not only sensed by
the group, but it was reflected in an enthusiastic and uninhibited
emulation.
The most apparent quality of the ensemble tone was one of
naturalness. Each singer brought to the organization a background of
meaningful musical experience and a knowledge of the use of his own
vocal instrument. Each person was permitted to use his voice in a
natural application to the spirit of the music. A coordinated kind of
independent expression seemed to be the goal.
The nature of the small musical forms resulted in an intimacy
of tone and yet a tone still free of restrictive inhibitions. Of the
male voices, the basses sang with the greatest intensity and with the
strongest sense of breath support. The tone was focused well forward
in the mouth and retained the fullness of the fundamental quality
throughout the entire range. The tenors seldom sang strongly and
appeared to make extensive use of the lighter and more softly textured
"head tone." Such a tone, though seldom of a brilliant or penetrating
81
nature, blended very well with the ensemble. The free application of
normal vocal techniques among the ladies' voices revealed the kind of
vibrato found in many solo voices. The sense of phrase flow or of
vocal "line" was less successfully achieved because of the extent of
the vibrato. Pitch purity and the clarity of melodic line were both
obscured because of the pitch variation inherent in wide vibrato.
Though Hirt would frequently demonstrate vocally the musical
alteration which he sought, he would seldom discuss the technical
means for the tonal change. He would rely instead upon the nature of
his comments to establish the emotional atmosphere which would bring
about the change. One of the exceptions to the normal procedure was
related to the concept of energetic phrase movement. In order to
achieve a greater sense of the tonal vitality which imparts a
"directional" quality to the musical phrase, he discussed some of the
functions of consonant sounds. Emphasized consonants and liquescents
can "emotionalize" words, "energize" music, increase rhythmic vigor,
and create intelligible words from meaningless vowels. Consonants
serve as "launching platforms" and determine the basic quality of the
vowels which succeed them. The emphasized and yet the controlled
consonant often serves to indicate the proper tempo for a selection
and subsequently exercises a strong control over the maintenance of
that tempo regularity.
Hirt's constructive and empathetic efforts to encourage the
singer's independent musical discovery and expression appeared to be
very successful. The humility and the intensity of the leadership
82
seemed to impress upon the individual the necessity to exercise all
of the intelligence and the musicianship at his command. With the
attention focused upon the music rather than upon the conductor, the
central problems arose out of a common concern for art rather than for
individual concerns for self.
Summary
The following statements comprise some of the more significant
ideas -which the interviewee expressed in his discussion of the
several categories of questions.
A. Musical training and teaching experience
1. Hirt was trained in both teacher-education and
conservatory-like institutions.
2. He taught at several levels of the public schools and
gained a practical perspective of the needs and
reactions of youth.
3. He became increasingly convinced of the potential
capacity of music to express a spiritual truth and to
affect positively the lives of people.
4. The mature musician adopts no one's choral method as
his own, but arrives at an individual expression as a
result of a dedicated search for the deepest meaning
of the music.
5. More than the present emphasis should be placed upon
the musical product rather than upon the processes of
music.
83
B. Music philosophy
1. Music is not so much a vehicle for conveying specific
ideas as it is a conveyer of emotions and attitudes of
mind -which permit the growth of ideas.
2. The fullest realization of music's transcendent
efficacy is dependent upon the musician's faith that
such power exists in art.
3. The singer's appreciation of musical efficacy has, in
many cases, been limited by the superficiality of a
conductor's musical concepts.
inculcating the faith that a great good awaits
discovery.
5. The artistic maturation which transforms musical
information into musical conviction is the same
process by which knowledge becomes wisdom.
6. Hirt attributes a part of the gradual change in his
7. The conductor's most effective teaching device is his
enthusiasm for music as an art, resulting from his
complete absorption in it.
1. Of greater importance than stylistic variety in a
84
choral program is the selection of music which
contains an expression of emotions and of attitudes
of sufficient prominence as to be strongly communicable
to the listener and to the performer.
2. To achieve more than style alone, music performance
should reflect a discrimination which recognizes the
profundity with which a composition relates man to
man and man to God.
1. Native vocal endowment and acquired vocal technique

.' *>v
can be effectively utilized in ensemble if the
individual possesses musical sensitivity.
2. Music reading ability, maturity, intelligence, and
an attitude of interested receptivity are other
desirable qualities of choral organization membership.
3. It is the conductors responsibility to challenge and
to inspire a choral group so that morale may be
established and maintained at a high level.
4. Rules for the enforcement of organizational policy
become the recourse when the group morale is
insufficiently high.
E. Rehearsal techniques and choral concepts
once again become subjective in its re-creation if
the emotion is to be communicated with intensity.
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2. An objective concern for choral tone often precludes
a subjective awareness of the musical idea.
3. As inspirers of artistic emulation and as inquirers
after a central musical idea, the differences between
"instrumental conductors" and "choral conductors" are
indistinguishable.
4. Good choral intonation is the product of a creative
situation, freed from "depressants."
F. Factors concerning festival choruses
1. For small and large groups alike, the selection of
music and the approach to rehearsal should always be
with a consideration for the art, the singer, and the
listener.
2. With groups of varying sizes and abilities, one adapts
to the peculiarities of the medium, but one behaves as
a conductor in fundamentally the same way.
1. The emotional and spiritual considerations of music
interpretation are often confused with areas of
technical consideration.
2. When the instrument is confused with the music,
virtuosic and tonal exploitation for the sake of sheer
display often result.
3. The institutions which are responsible for the
preparation of choral conductors should not expect to
86
teach conducting as if it were a fixed entity; they
should make every effort to accelerate and to abet
the process of self-discovery.
H. The rehearsal
techniques, the effort to reveal the emotion of the
music and to communicate the underlying meaning of
the music constitutes Hirt's principal approach to
artistic refinement.
2. Hirt's conducting style is one of "impressionistic"
rather than of "structural" emphasis.
3- Ideally, the ensemble should discover and should so
understand its own valid and unique musical expression
The philosophic ideal which seems to permeate every phase of
Hirt's thought and action is that music embodies a transcendental
efficacy which must be believed and which must be sought after by the
individual if the art is to be realized within its most noble context.
87
CHAPTER V
AN ANALYSIS OF THE INTERVIEWS WITH AND THE REHEARSAL
TECHNIQUES EMPLOYED BY HOWARD SWAN
From December 27 through December 30, I960, the writer
conducted a series of interviews with Howard Swan on the campus of
Occidental College at Los Angeles. The statements which follow con
stitute an account of Dr. Swan's responses to the interview questions.
The categorical headings contained in this chapter correspond to
similar categories of questions which were posed to the interviewee.
In no case did the interviewer attempt to limit the response of the
interviewee to a specific answer to any question. Rather, the
questions were intended to stimulate the thinking of the interviewee
within a general area so that concepts and ideas of importance to him
might be more freely revealed. The reader may wish to refer to
Appendix E for a transcription of the tape recorded interview.
Later in this chapter an analytical account is given of several
rehearsals which were conducted by Dr. Swan on the campus of Occidental
College from December 27 through December 30, I960.
Howard Swan took his undergraduate collegiate training at
Pomona College at Claremont, California. His major area of study,
however, was in history with an academic minor in political science
88
and the equivalent of a minor area in music. He did not intend at
that time to engage in any kind of full-time music activity. Rather,
he expected to become a church soloist and to continue an avocational
musical pursuit. The glee club experience which he had gained up to
that time enabled him to direct the campus choral organization during
a year in which the regularly appointed conductor was on a sabbatical
leave.
The orientation of the music curriculum at Pomona College
during the time Swan was attending emphasized the music content
courses and the music performance aspects of the conservatory system.
Music teacher preparation was not among the goals of that institution.
Though both the glee club and the music department were considered to
be very fine, Swan does not feel that the music experience constituted
much of a challenge to him. Pomona College, together with most other
colleges across the country, functioned within the dated framework of
chromatic and episodic nineteenth century repertoire concepts.
The academic courses in music represented some qualitative
improvement over the demands imposed by the performing experiences.
Music harmony, music history, and a specialized course in the music of
Mozart were among those which have been of conscious value to Swan
over the years. Only a few of the undergraduate choral concepts to
which he was exposed have proved to be of enduring significance. Most
important among these was the concept of proper intonation and, in
order to achieve it, the necessity for the lower voices to sing
extremely accurate intervals.
89
The choral views which he presently holds were developed
largely as a result of personal associations and of periods of choral
study with men whom he met subsequent to his college years. An asso
ciation with John Smaliman proved to be the most productive among such
early acquaintances. Smaliman, who had founded the first a cappella
choir in the Los Angeles area, and who directed the Los Angeles
Oratorio Society, selected Swan to sing tenor in a mixed quartet
called the "Tudor Singers." The literature sung by the quartet
revealed an entirely new repertoire of madrigals and, more importantly,
initiated in him the first appreciative recognition of the music of
J. S. Bach. The felt need to probe more deeply into music, which grew
from the curiosity aroused by the first contacts with Smaliman, led to
a number of summers of special study with Father William J. Finn and
at the Westminster Choir College with John Finley Williamson.
Swan taught for five years in the high school at Eagle Rock,
California. For the first two years, he taught only history, but
gradually he became more active in the field of choral music. He came
to Occidental College in 1934, on a part-time basis, to conduct the
college glee clubs. Then, in 1937, he joined the college staff as a
full-time member but with responsibilities which were more in the area
of public relations than in the area of music. It was at that time,
because of a paralyzed vocal cord, that Swan began an extended associa
tion with Finley Williamson, who ultimately restored a usable sound to
his speaking voice. Those years provided ample opportunity to become
acquainted with the choral concepts of that influential conductor and
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to observe the techniques which he employed.
Pursuing a similar kind of study, Swan spent a sabbatical
year and several shorter periods of time studying the techniques of
Robert Shaw, the professional choral conductor. Through Shaw he
became acquainted with the musicologist and authority on music litera
ture, Julius Herford. Thus, for twenty-five years he sought the
counsel of and observed the example set by pioneering men in positions
of choral leadership.
Dr. Swan's collegiate teaching has been devoted exclusively
to the areas of choral and vocal music. Neither courses in music
education nor courses in theoretical music have been a part of his

i
responsibility. Aside from choral activity and studio voice teaching,
he teaches a general conducting course. A course of this type is
required by the state of California for all students seeking a
teaching credential in music.
One of the reasons for a willingness to change from high
school teaching to college teaching grew from a desire to work in
music with students who were more mature. Another reason, and one
which continues to permeate his choral philosophy, lay in the convic
tion that choral singing, or singing of any kind, provides the conduc
tor with opportunities to influence the philosophies and the lives of
the singers. Voice teaching and choral conducting have enabled him to
counsel with literally thousands of people.
Music Philosophy
_______ The realization of choral music within its most powerful______
91
context involves much more than the technical considerations of
coordinated attacks and releases. No amount of well-produced choral
tone or of ensemble cohesion alone is sufficient to communicate music's
fullest potency. Technical mastery is desirable to the extent that it
does not become an end unto itself. The most moving and highly pene
trating music performance emanates from singers who have identified
themselves with the emotion of the musical idea, thereby imparting to
the music a convincingly communicative intensity.
Especially because youth has been taught from adolescence to
disguise its true emotional feelings, it is the opportunity as well as
the responsibility of all choral programs to restore expressive
normalcy to the personality. The choral rehearsal, quite aside from
concerns related to the content of the music, can assist in a realistic
adjustment of the personality by encouraging ensemble effort of a less
inhibited nature. Just as the shy person may develop an assurance
through musical commitment, the artificially aggressive prima donna
can learn to contain his efforts within the bounds of ensemble
expression. Young people who sing and tour together become acquainted
with the aspirations, the ideals, and the ideas which others hold.
This kind of recognition enables the individual to see others as
sensitive, intelligent human beings who are worth of consideration and
respect. As one reveals himself to others by expressing his ideas and
by expressing his emotions about ideas, he becomes a more vital person,
both to himself and to others. Similarly, the ability to sense the
emotional content of a musically expressed idea can thus be enhanced
92
by the very nature of the circumstances surrounding choral singing.
All great musicians whom Swan has known have had the ability
to project the emotional drama of a musical idea, either as performers
or as conductors, through a process of personality identification.
The personality which has risen above a state of self-conscious in
hibition has matured in its capacity to recognize and to reflect the
emotions of great ideas. Choral performance of the most vital and
moving kind can occur only when the singers are able to react person
ally and subjectively rather than mechanically to the objective
suggestion of the musical score. The musically oriented social
circumstance of interacting personalities permits the choral rehearsal
to contribute to human versatility and enrichment. Further, as the
conductor selects and interprets music which deals with certain human
values, he has the opportunity to inculcate his own social, and
religious philosophy.
Music need not be chosen because it was composed by a particu
lar master or because it is exemplary of a particular period in music
history. The choice of repertoire should reflect the conductor's
consideration of both the performer and the listener. Each represents
a state of varied musical development and each exercises an influence
upon the musical success which a conductor may achieve. The choral
concert which is aesthetically beyond the comprehension of either the
performer or the listener will be unconvincingly performed or poorly
and unenthusiastically attended. Though the conductor must be sensi
tive to the prevailing level of musical sophistication, he is charged
93
with the responsibility for working intelligently to raise that level
through a communication of musical values.
At Occidental College, this point of view has become mani
fested by efforts to create choral programs which encompass a con
siderable variety of literature. Selections are performed by ensembles
of mixed voices, women's voices, and men's voices. Many compositions
are sung without accompaniment, while others may be accompanied by a
string quartet, a brass ensemble, or by a piano. The first half of
the concert normally includes a kind of choral literature which meets
the aesthetic demands of the collegiate music major and the audience
dilettante. The last half of the concert is typically preoccupied
with the kind of folk music and the dramatized "show-tune" (see
Appendix B) which seems most accessible to the non-music student and
to the average layman.
Within such a varied program, the conductor must exercise
musical discrimination concerning the matters of literature quality
and stylistic balance. Music which was composed for vastly different
purposes must not be unjustly evaluated through direct comparison.
Legitimate comparisons and evaluations may be determined only among
selections within the same category of musical style and intent. The
conductor is thus obligated to search for the finest representation
in any musical category for which there is a felt need. Of equal
importance, as music is selected from the various categories, is the
necessity for maintaining an equitable balance among the musical
styles. This approach to repertoire selection and to concert
94
programming has proved to be enormously successful with performers and
audiences alike. At Occidental College, the annual choral Campus
Concert is always performed on three successive evenings to capacity
audiences.
The fact that the search for satisfying choral literature has
become more difficult and more extensive each year is an indication to
Swan that his musical taste has undergone change and growth. Every
great musician with whom he has come in contact has broadened his
concept of repertoire. Books about music and about composers consti
tute another source of stimulation for repertoire ideas. Catalogs of
choral publications can help to suggest lesser-known works by the
earlier masters as well as to announce new creations by outstanding
contemporary composers. Though not all the works of a given composer
may achieve the same degree of effectiveness, the fact that some of
his compositions reflect a uniquely valid musical approach is suffi
cient reason to investigate other works by the same composer.
Rarely does Swan retain choral literature from one concert
season to another. The isolated materials which may occasionally be
selected for repetition are never performed on successive years. Such
a decision, however, need not imply that the conductor has learned all
that there is to know concerning a given music score. Rather, Swan
indicates, it is that he has applied himself to the technical demands
and that he has absorbed the emotional impact of the music to the
temporary maximum of his capacity. Even the most inspiring music
scores must be put away for at least two years before another
95
performance is attempted.
Just as the search for and the selection of music involves the
use of philosophically derived discrimination, so does one's music
philosophy manifest itself in the interpretive communication of con
ducting. Having determined the variety of ensemble sounds of which
his group is capable, the conductor may first examine a score to
discover whether the sonority he senses in the music is appropriate
to the capacities of his chorus. He should search for any evidence
of the composer's effort to combine text and harmony into a unique
expression of an emotional idea. As the conductor experiences his own
reaction to the presence of a cogent expression, the very musical
inference carries with it emotional implications for the kind of
reaction which the singers themselves should experience. Once the
music has been brought into rehearsal and the technique of note-
accuracy has been accomplished, the conductor’s emotional response
affects his every motion, his facial expression, and his comment.
Unalterable conducting techniques cannot communicate music's inherent
variety. Rather, the assimilated musical idea must serve as the
stimulus which suggests the most appropriate technique.
Swan disagrees with the conducting and the choral philosophy
which suggests that conductors and choruses should experience the
emotional reaction to a composition and then try to rid themselves of
the emotion, while retaining the techniques of its expression. This
point of view, which he feels to be one of artificiality, contends
that the emotional involvement of the performer tends to lessen
96
intelligent control over the music and results in less effective music
performance. Swan has discovered, as he says Robert Shaw has learned,
that consistently maintaining an extremely high degree of emotional
intensity can be physically devastating to the conductor. Therefore
he has found it possible, so long as he possesses a thoroughly pre
conceived concept of the musical idea, to develop within the chorus
an emotional identification without involving himself excessively.
Each conductor should recognize, however, that demands for sustained
choral intensity are potentially as detrimental to the ensemble as
are similar demands upon the conductor.
To the question of precisely which elements may have contribu
ted to performances in which his groups attained an especially high
level of aesthetic communication, Swan does not know the answer. He
recalls a performance by the Occidental College Glee Clubs for the
Los Angeles meeting of the Music Educators National Conference in
1958, at which time he was not unusually aware of remarkable choral
performance though audience enthusiasm became nearly uncontrollable.
There have been other occasions when he felt that the choir had
performed superbly, only to discover that the audience had sensed no
such impact. Consequently, Swan speculates that room acoustics, the
element of surprising musical innovation, and the prevailing mood of
the audience itself all affect the intensity of musical impression.
He is certain, however, that even the rarely attained maximum of
performer-audience communication lies beyond potential realization
unless the technical demands of the music are well met. In fact, with
97
some styles of music it is the virtuosic display of technique which
initially captures audience imagination.
So far as the training of choral conductors is concerned,
Swan is convinced that efforts to pattern a student's musical behavior
after that of the teacher offer little hope of success. There are,
however, elements of importance to all conductors which should be
stressed. A conductor should be able to organize well, whether his
responsibilities lie in the public school, in the college, or in a
church situation. Though people seem to have more leisure time, they
are jealous of its use because of the variety of available and desir
able activities. When a conductor occupies a period of time which
people have voluntarily given, he is obligated to utilize that time
in the most efficient manner. The rehearsal, in all its mechanical
and musical aspects, must be so organized that the majority of
potential problems have been anticipated. Organizing ability consti
tutes an improvable technique which develops through application and
experience.
The respect which accrues to the conductor who demonstrates an
authoritative knowledge of music literature, music history, and the
theoretical aspects of music can become an important contributor to
ensemble responsiveness. Such knowledge also lends a discriminating
decisiveness to the conductor’s role of musical leadership.
Academic information about music, however, cannot replace the
necessity for a knowledge of fundamental principles of tone production.
Swan feels that " . . . public school people don't know enough about
98
this business of tone." They do not understand that certain combina
tions of vocal techniques are likely to produce particular kinds of
sounds. Too often they merely imitate mechanically the procedures to
■which they were exposed in college, largely oblivious of the vocal
principles which may have motivated those procedures. The study of
voice and a knowledge of vocal principles should be considered among
the elements which are indispensable to the training of choral con
ductors .
Another element which is essential to the responsibility of
choral leadership concerns the ability to hear a series of musical
sounds in a meaningful relationship to each other. It is not enough
to be aware of a vocal melody alone. The conductor must develop his
capacity to hear the simultaneous progress of several individual voice
parts and to be constantly aware of harmonic accuracy, proper intona
tion, and balance among the choral sections. Further, in order to
refine consonant and vowel treatment as a means of clarifying choral
diction, the conductor must be able to locate as well as to define
such problems as may exist.
Directly related to one1s ability to hear the movement of
independent choral parts is the ability to envision the shape of the
musical phrase. Phrasing, as the process of dividing a melody into a
series of note-groupings which bear a relative importance to each
other, is the most critical of all the conductor’s techniques. It is
on the basis of whether or not, or with what skill, a conductor phrases
his music that Swan determines the presence of true artistry. One who
99
does not hear or who does not comprehend the musical movement of all
the parts will phrase crudely or not at all. It is possible to learn
some aspects of musical phrasing through an exposure to example and
through discussion. However, phrasing cannot be copied. The conductor
must possess a "feeling" for the phrase if he is to be aware that such
a problem even exists.
Choral leadership which is sensitive to musical phrasing often
demonstrates other evidence of artistic "taste." The artist-conductor
is more often responsive to the subtlety of high-quality choral
literature. Expressive musical performance and intelligent phrasing
are further manifestations of his responsiveness. "Taste" in human
relations— that compassion for and that respect for the dignity and
the intelligence of other human beings— is probably the most difficult
leadership technique to teach.
The greatest of the problems likely to be encountered by those
who are responsible for the preparation of choral conductors is that
of inspiring creativity rather than imitation. Teachers of conducting
should employ every motivation for the encouragement of the individu
ally expressive use of all ideas and examples which they may place
before the students. Only those ideas which become assimilated and
which find re-expression through one's own personality and imagination
carry with them the authority of conviction.
Good choral literature from any compositional era is typified
100
by a uniqueness, a consistency, and an intelligence of musical
expression. The poetic cogency of the text associated with Romantic
and with contemporary music is especially important to the artistic
composite. Earlier composers, whose musical craftsmanship has been
firmly established, do not often present the problem of musical and
textual incompatibility. However, as one becomes familiar with the
best-known works of the finest composers, he establishes for himself
a reference standard by which to evaluate subsequent works by the
same composers as he is exposed to them. Inasmuch as not all of a
composer’s musical output may be expected to attain the same degree of
artistic expression, the conductor should take care to select music
which is typical of a composer’s best efforts. Contemporary music
which employs only musical cliches idiomatic of an earlier musical
period is, at best, an unsatisfactory substitute for the earlier music
itself. Composers of significance, though some have been students of
earlier musical styles, have always been innovators in some combina
tion of melody, rhythm, musical form, and hannony. The skill of
compositional craftsmanship, combined with the creativity of inspired
innovation, constitutes intelligence in music literature.
Among Swan's sources for new ideas concerning available choral
literature is the Mew York Times. He scans the printed programs of
the concerts given in that city in an effort to discover compositions
which he does not know. When an unknown composition appears in the
newspaper, or in one of the catalogs of the best-known publishers, he
secures it for perusal. The Henry Drinker translations of Bach,
101
Brahms, and Schutz compositions, available through the Free Library
of Philadelphia, have been another valuable source of literature.
■When the music to be performed has been chosen, the conductor
is faced -with the responsibility of preparing himself for the rehearsal
of the music. No element could contribute more strongly to his musical
insight than a thorough knowledge of authentic stylistic character
istics. The projection of the musical character of each historical
period presents its own unique rehearsal problems. These problems
will never occur to the conductor who, out of musical ignorance,
performs every selection with Romantic impetuosity.
The process of choosing music for performance is, in fact, a
part of the conductor's rehearsal preparation. He should already have
determined that the music is expressive of a legitimate style and that
its technical problems lie within the capacities of his group. Then,
on the basis of the stylistic demands, Swan imagines the finished
sound which he wishes the ensemble to achieve. He also predetermines
the rehearsal techniques which are most likely to be effective at a
given stage in the musical preparation.
Though a conductor prepares himself by studying the music
prior to the rehearsal, he cannot anticipate his every reaction to the
music. The concept of an imagined sound is occasionally altered by
actual sound of the chorus bringing with it new ideas and interpretive
reconsiderations. As musical ideas are either confirmed or altered in
the conductor's mind, he should impart them as they become appropriate
to the current effort of the chorus. Some young conductors are so
102
full of knowledge about the music they intend to rehearse that they
talk about it incessantly. Rather than to lecture about the music,
the conductor should permit ideas to unfold as the group can apply
them specifically to the music. It should be understood that, while
the singers do not have the conductor's musical background, by the
time of choral performance they should at least be familiar with the
conductor's general intent. The chorus which shares the conductor's
basic musical ideas is much more likely to respond with a communica
tion which reflects his artistic impression.
The selection of singers for the Occidental College glee clubs
is accomplished almost entirely on the basis of three vocal considera
tions. The applicant should be able to sing accurately in tune by
singing "to the center of the pitch." He should demonstrate the
ability to imitate rhythms and to sing rhythmically. Swan has dis
covered that the absence of a rhythmic sense often indicates a lack of
artistic imagination. Then, the singer should possess a voice which
demonstrates the capacity to produce a tone of at least noimal volume.
It is not necessary for the applicant to have an unusually loud voice
but he must have the ability to produce a tone which is more .than just
audible. In a majority of instances, Swian likes to feel that the
voices which he selects are capable of responding and developing under
the proper guidance in rehearsal. He prefers to assume that vocal
improvement may be expected and that none of the voices has reached
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the point of maximum utilization.
Because the glee clubs at Occidental College are selected
groups , Swan prefers and tests for an ability of the members to read
music. Though the majority can do so, there is occasionally a person
who demonstrates musical sensitivity and who possesses a good voice
but who does not read music very well. If the tonal and intellectual
potentialities are of sufficient strength, and if there are other good
readers within the same choral section, Swan will excuse the music
reading weakness.
The College Choir, which is another group of mixed voices
conducted by Swan, presents a different kind of situation. The less-
select nature of that organization results in a significantly reduced
emphasis upon demonstrated achievement in music techniques. The
conductor gets along as well as he can with the group in which many
of the singers read music poorly or not at all. Central to the
criteria for admission to the College Choir is simply the ability to
match pitches with reasonable accuracy.
Swan has not always maintained a consistent kind of choral
seating arrangement. Normally, he employs the "traditional" seating
plan which places the tenors behind the sopranos and the basses behind
the alto voices. On some occasions, he has reversed the location of
the bass and tenor sections. On other occasions he has arranged the
sections so that the highest and the lowest voice parts were located
in the middle of the choir. Second basses would sit behind the first
sopranos while the first tenors were placed behind the second altos.
104
Regardless of the basic seating plan, individual singers may, from
time to time, be asked to move to new positions within the same sec
tion. Each of the seating alternatives has been employed at some
time for purposes of either improving choral blend or for improving
intonation. Seating experimentation to determine its effect upon the
sound may continue to the moment of the concert.
Student officers and student committees assume many of the
responsibilities of organizational operation which Swan prefers to
avoid. The administration of a "point system," -which is applied to
rehearsal and to concert attendance, is one of the responsibilities.
No absences are considered to be excusable, and with each absence,
the member forfeits some points. If the singer exhausts his total
number of points, he is automatically dropped from choral membership.
To be reinstated, he must apply to the student board of officers so
that the circumstances which involve his absence may be reviewed.
Students also administer the supplying of choral uniforms, the
arrangements for concerts, and the physical concerns of concerts and
rehearsals. The Campus Concerts, which entail advertising, publicity,
staging, costumes, and programs, require committees which involve
every member of the glee clubs.
Intercollegiate competition to attract talented music through
extensive scholarship plans has not affected Occidental College so
much as have the rising tuition rates of the private collegiate
institution. Students who might well have enrolled in the private
college ten or fifteen years ago are now enrolling in the state
105
colleges and universities because of the substantially lower tuition
rates of those institutions. Occidental College has no program of
departmental scholarship. Instead, grants for financial aid are
extended to students solely upon the basis of economic need. From
time to time, when the music faculty has occasion to hear an out
standing student musician, a written report of their reaction,
together with a request that financial consideration be given to the
student, is sent to the Admissions Office. Such reports are at least
taken into consideration by the reviewing committee.
Choral directors are inclined to ask their groups to perform
too frequently. Among the negative results which occur within the
institution when its organizations are off-campus to an excessive
extent are an increased faculty disapproval of the director's conduct
and a general academic suspicion of the ethicality of his motives.
The student is faced with the needlessly abnormal task of satisfying
heavy musical demands while trying to sustain his obligations in other
subject areas. Many collegiate music organizations are as much at
fault as collegiate athletic teams for having distorted an institu
tion's reputation. The college which is known by the majority for its
athletes or for its musical performance alone suffers an unjust
evaluation because of a consequent failure to recognize the academic
contribution for which it was founded.
Excessive choral performance also functions to the disadvantage
of the music which is sung. The constant pressure of frequent
appearances mitigates against the attainment of choral refinement.
106
Music is often only partially prepared so that the conductor may
deliberately select a repertoire which is both easy and frivolously-
entertaining. Such an exploitation robs the student of the opportunity
to learn, to which he is entitled. Only concerts which can validly
demonstrate their usefulness both to the school and to the student
should be undertaken.
Choral concert tours, as an exception to the rule, are of
greater value as contributions to the student than as contributions to
the college. The social experience of students singing and touring
together, to which reference was made during the first section of the
interview, is probably incapable of duplication by any other circum
stance. Also, the young soloist who might not otherwise have the
opportunity is given the experience of performing before a number of
different audiences other than immediately on the college campus.
Swan believes that the students themselves take care of the
choral organization elements which may contribute to higher group
morale. The student officers hold regular meetings and faithfully
report their activities to the group. The many responsibilities for
managing the affairs of the organization are assumed by large-scale
volunteer help, rather than through delegation, so that a feeling of
individual contribution to the common welfare is developed.
Choral schools which have been in existence for some time and
which have developed around a particular tonal concept have necessarily
107
influenced a large number of choral conductors. The central idea,
•with reference to such "schools," is that persistent demands for the
acquisition of specific vocal techniques will result in a highly
predictable quality of choral tone. Choral directors should under
stand that the human voice may be successfully guided in any one of
several tonal directions but that it will not function with equal
success in more than one of these directions. Choral groups in which
"blend" and vibratoless voice-matching constitute the primary tonal
goals must necessarily pursue a vocal approach which differs from the
group in which the emphasis is upon the freely-produced individual
voice. The tonal characteristics of each type of production lend
themselves more successfully to some musical styles than to others.
"Blended" tone is superbly suited to the austerity of polyphony but
it imparts an inappropriate aloofness to Romantic music.
Swan's choruses, because of his interest in the individual
vocal expression, always sing Romantic music more successfully. The
more freely developed musical phrases and the extensive dynamic range
of this style are well suited to the more individual vocal style.
Though a great love for sixteenth century music may be developed, the
group will always sound better when it sings Brahms than when it sings
Palestrina.
The ideal choral tone for which Swan strives is built upon the
fullest possible vocal expression by each individual. Consequently,
his interest in the most freely produced kind of tone involves an
emphasis upon the "open throat" and upon the complete relaxation of
108
the jaw and of the tongue. Though there is some disagreement among
vocal teachers as to how the throat is successfully "opened," Swan
believes that the completely free jaw and tongue have much to do with
it. In addition, the way in which a person takes a breath and is able
to hold it has an effect upon the way in which he sings.
Very definitely each voice consists of "registers," or of
several pitch ranges, which differ in vocal quality. Thus, one may
make use of both a low and a high register in a woman's voice. Some
singers refer to the high register as the "falsetto" register or as
the "head-tone" register. The semantic problem is of little importance
so long as the principle of the production is understood. One should
not confuse the present reference to the falsetto register with the
concept of the light and unsupported "Irish falsetto." Rather, it is
a kind of "driven" falsetto which is strongly supported by the breath
and which has the capacity to extend the range as well as to intensify
the quality of the upper tones of the male voice. No especially
devised choral exercises are employed to develop this kind of tone
production aside from technical considerations which may be applied
directly to the music under rehearsal.
"When the jaw is opened loosely, and when the tongue is equally
free and relaxed, the tongue assumes a perfectly natural position and
does not have to be "put" anywhere. The resulting tone has an opulence
or a fullness which some refer to as a "dark" tone, or as a tone which
is produced at the back of the mouth. Swan vocalizes the singers in
their lower registers but he does not ask them to carry that quality
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up the musical scale. Instead, he asks that each singer retain the
"feeling" with which he supported the lower tones as he sings higher
tones. This process results in a more strongly supported high
register through the use of much more breath.
It is a mistake for the conductor to couch all of his comments
concerning tone production in terms of his own subjective singing
sensations. To encourage "placing" the tone in one physical area or
another is an effort to develop within the singer a consciousness of
the tonal result which he wishes to produce. The singer is more apt,
however, to achieve the desired result if his consciousness can be
directed toward the physical causes which are likely to produce the
tone for which he strives. Therefore, an awareness that the shout,
the sung high tone, and extremely soft singing share in common the
supported use of small quantities of breath is the causal concept
which Swan prefers to emphasize. His belief in the legitimate choral
use of the head-tone is in recognized opposition to the concepts of
Douglas Stanley, the voice teacher, and of Williamson of the West
minster Choir College.
In order to develop the sensation of breath support and in
order to couple the breath to the tone more efficiently, "staccato"
and "marcato" exercises are employed to a considerable extent. Much
attention is directed toward developing an awareness of the dynamic
level at which the group may be singing and to an awareness of the
dynamic range of which it is capable. The consciousness of supported
tone is directly related to the ability to produce a broad spectrum of
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dynamics ■with tonal consistency. As he works for improved choral
quality on high tones, Swan begins with a staccato exercise on a
pitch. The process helps to avoid the vocal tendency to carry into
upper tones the low-register quality by bringing to the tone a more
efficient and intense kind of vocal attack.
The ability of the individual singer to hear and to be aware
of the musical activity of the other choral parts is important to the
most intelligent kind of ensemble singing. To enhance this kind of
awareness, the choir may be asked to sustain a humming sound, while
one section at a time sings a neutral syllable. Careful listening is
also applied to the chromatic and to the parallel-third vocalizations
which serve to refine a sense of good intonation.
Another technical aspect which affects the choral sound of the
glee clubs is Swan's "steeple" or "pyramid" of tonal balance among the
sections. As the names imply, none of the sections is responsible to
deliver the same quantity of sound in passages for full chorus. The
lowest voices, in both the male and the female sections, should pro
duce the most tone on a relative basis. Successively higher voice
parts have proportionately softer tonal obligations. Again, the
ability of the individual singers to sense their relationship to the
other voices is critical.
The ratio of male singers to female singers which actually
exists in the Occidental glee clubs is not representative of Swan's
basic preference. The combined glee clubs, which were founded as and
still remain separate organizations, normally consist of eighty
Ill
singers, divided equally between men and women. Though Swan has
maintained the traditional numerical balance, ideally he would prefer
to have an eighty-voice group composed of fifty men and thirty women.
In answer to a question concerning any special function which
choral conducting may serve, Swan responded with firm conviction that
a significant difference between choral conducting and instrumental
conducting does exist. The two areas of musical leadership should
not be considered to be so similar that they may be combined into one
college class. Though the conducting patterns which are employed by
both conductors may be identical, the uniqueness of choral music lies
in the fact that it deals in words which are symbols of ideas. Textu
al ideas carry with them a musical connotation and, if the composer
has done his job well, the music and the text become mutually enhanc
ing. Therefore, the gestures, the facial expressions, and the spoken
comments of the choral conductor must always communicate the ideas
expressed in the text. The communication which at first occurs
between the conductor and the chorus in rehearsal must become
increasingly intensified and clarified so that the same kind of
communication may be projected to the audience during the performance.
Conductors who ignore or who simply fail to recognize textual implica
tions can neither conceive of nor project the fullest meaning con
tained in choral music.
Swan employs a variety of extra-musical techniques to enhance
choral response to his musical state of mind. The singers are urged
to reflect with their own faces, without artificiality, the musical
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identification -which they feel as they respond individually and as
they observe the expressions of the conductor. At other times the
singers may be encouraged to respond with body movement to music of
rhythm and "vitality," or to walk in place as they sing, or to stretch
up on their toes for a feeling of musical "buoyancy" and "life."
From the point of view of the conductor, the responsibility
for communicating the musical idea which exists in his mind involves
far more than just the use of his hands. The traditional conducting
patterns, which serve as metrical indications, are his least effective
means of projection. In order of relative importance, the conductor
has at his disposal his face, his body, and his hands. The hands may
indicate the "musical architecture" of a phrase, but it is the face
and the body which impart its emotional character.
The common and troublesome problem of poor choral intonation
is caused principally by the failure of singers to develop an accurate
concept of the musical or the melodic interval. The accuracy of a
melodic interval is often affected by the manner in which vowels are
modified. Vowel modification, in turn, may be affected basically by
the appropriateness of the vocal techniques employed within a given
register. Consequently, when the quality of the more powerfully
supported lower-register tones is carried without modification into
the upper-register, the resulting driven sound may be expected to rise
above the correct pitch.
________The most obvious considerations which must be taken into
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account when choosing festival chorus literature relate to the size
of the chorus, its relative ability, its physical arrangement, the
nature of the accompanying media, and the general acoustical properties
of the performance location. The choice of literature further depends
upon the extensiveness of the program— whether the chorus is to sing
one group or two groups of selections, or an entire evening's program.
If the group is not so large as to prevent the probability of some
success in improving choral tone, attention may be directed to the
quality of the choral sound by achieving a balance between a cappella
and accompanied selections. Regardless of the quantity of choral
literature to be sung, the conductor has an educational responsibility
to the chorus to choose music which is representative of a variety of
compositional periods. This can be accomplished even if the group is
to perform no more than three songs.
The limitations of available rehearsal time obviously affect
the choice of choral music from the practical standpoint of its diffi
culty. However, the problems imposed by time limitation can be over
came to some extent through an insistence by the conductor that a
minimum standard of achievement be accomplished by each of the partic
ipating groups prior to the assembly of the massed chorus. Such an
insistence may be more successfully realized if the guest conductor
accompanies his plea with specific suggestions regarding desired
tempi, dynamic considerations, and the treatment of other problems
which may exist in the music score.
There are certain elements of musical style which seem
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traditionally to present difficulty in performances by large choral
groups. Music which requires a very fast tempo, or which involves
either very "close" or widely "spread" harmonic writing, should be
avoided because of the difficulty which large groups experience in
hearing the various choral sections. Choruses of substantial size
have the capacity to sustain long musical phrases and normally sound
to good advantage in music which is composed of such phrases. Short
phrases, which are typical of much music in which an eighth note or a
sixteenth note receives one beat, seldom permit large choral forces
to reveal the emotional power of their fullest expression.
Swan's first efforts before a festival chorus are to help them
become acquainted with him. This he does by simply explaining to them
that the quality of his speaking voice is the consequence of a
paralyzed vocal cord. The straightforward explanation for his unusual
vocal quality enables the group to understand the situation so that
the sound itself no longer constitutes a distraction from the ideas
expressed. This has proved to be of particular importance with groups
of high school singers.
The initial singing experiences are usually confined to a few
sustained chords. Because it is just as important for the singers as
for the conductor to become accustomed to the sound of newly combined
voices, Swan vocalizes each choral section separately. If there is
something favorable about the quality of singing at that time, it
should be mentioned. If a serious deficiency exists, it should be
commented upon without obvious discouragement. The next step is to
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begin the singing with the simplest musical selection on the program.
Normally, the group must be stopped before it completes even the first
phrase because it will not have followed the conductor's gestures.
Then, with exaggerated comment and with equally exaggerated gestures,
the conductor may indicate to the group the manner in which he would
have to proceed if he were to try to appear as they sounded. The
contrast of the somewhat unlikely demonstration with an indication of
precisely what the conductor has in mind may serve to motivate the
singers to a more responsive kind of observation. From this point on,
the rehearsal procedures for the large chorus do not significantly
differ from those applied to smaller groups.
Among the choral weaknesses which Swan most frequently
observes are two problems which appear to be interrelated.
The widespread inability of conductors to demonstrate a sensi
tivity to the musical phrase seems to be related to a similar inability
to choose a proper tempo. An inappropriate tempo robs music of much
of its emotional potential by imposing a distorted sense of time upon
the composer's original intent for phrase duration. The movement and
the shape of the melodic phrase, within a given time-span, are among
the composer's methods for intensifying the emotional atmosphere of a
textual idea. Mien the time-span, within which a phrase exists, is
inordinately reduced or extended, the velocity as well as the design
of the phrase becomes altered to the extent that text and sonority are
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in meaningless combination.
Another of the prevalent choral weaknesses lies in the failure
of choruses to communicate or even to sense for themselves the emo
tional significance of great musical ideas. The notes may be memo
rized, together with the techniques of tempo and dynamics, but the
music often sounds as if it were being sung for the first time.
Basically, the problem stems from a fear or from some kind of reluc
tance on the part of the conductor to reveal himself emotionally to
the chorus. If the conductor reveals nothing but technical considera
tions to his chorus, then the chorus may not be expected to project
more than musical technique to the listener.
Though many conductors still show evidence of insufficiently
developed musical discrimination as they select choral literature, the
number of those who are doing better music is increasing. The appear
ance of impressive compositions on the printed program, however, does
not often provide any reliable indication of performance success.
Typically, Renaissance, Baroque, and even Romantic music are afforded
only a routine kind of performance, as if they were being sung out of
some musicological obligation. But with the arrival in the program
of the Negro spiritual and the "show tune," the chorus reflects its
enthusiastic identification in rhythmic performances of obvious
delight. Singers should be led to discover the excitement and the
challenge that lie in the great music of all compositional eras. This
leadership is a primary responsibility of the conductor, and his
failure to exert it can only indicate that he is either incapable of
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sensing musical subtlety or that he does not know enough about the
musical style to get excited about it.
Swan assumes that most choral conductors are quite intelligent
enough to make a musical application of the information which they
have had an opportunity to learn. The existing weakness, therefore,
would seem to indicate that potential conductors are not being exposed
to the musical information and to the musical example which should
ultimately become the basis for artistic discrimination. A majority
of those who come to Occidental College for summer choral workshops
demonstrate very little knowledge of historical periods in music and
their characteristic styles. Those who do have some stylistic insight
seldom understand the peculiar demands which musical style places upon
rehearsal technique. Polyphonic music, with its highly independent
and flexible vocal lines, cannot be successfully understood by the
chorus if it is rehearsed in the same manner as with the music of
Brahms. Each voice part must be considered carefully and individually
until the choral sections understand the subtlety of their responsi
bility and, finally, their relative position in the whole musical
structure.
For the aspiring young choral conductor, Swan has several
recommendations. Rather than to sing with just one choral group, he
suggests participation in several groups, over a period of five years
or so, provided that the leadership is creative and imaginative. The
enormous amount of recorded choral music which is currently available
provides an excellent source of stimulation and of learning for the
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student. He may listen for the stylistic application of interpretive
ideas, for concepts of choral tone, and for additions to his knowl
edgeable repertoire. Finally, Swan encourages the conducting student
to read and to keep searching for every available book which may deal
entirely, or in but a small part, with some aspect of style in music.
The rehearsals which the writer observed were conducted by
Howard Swan on the campus of Occidental College over a period of four
days. The combined-men1s and women's glee clubs met for a special
series of rehearsals to prepare for imminent recording sessions under
the direction of Bruno Walter and to prepare for their annual choir
tour. Composed of fifty singers, the choral sections were arranged
so that the first and second tenors, baritones, and basses were
located at the rear of the chorus from the conductor's left. The
women's voices were arranged with the sopranos and altos seated at the
conductor's left and right respectively. Entirely paneled in wood,
the rehearsal room contained auditorium-type seats which were perma
nently fastened to the various floor levels. Thirteen sopranos,
twelve altos, twelve tenors, and thirteen basses made up the four
choral sections.
In all probability, because six or seven hours of daily
rehearsal were available, Swan felt that he could rehearse in a more
deliberate and painstaking manner. One such indication was the fact
that he vocalized the group in a number of different ways for nearly
119
thirty minutes. The singers were initially encouraged to "sit up and
keep the chest high." Then, as the group hummed a chord, they were
asked to change the humming to an "o" vowel and finally to sing the
vowel on a series of staccato chords. Thus, they were urged to trans
fer the vocal quality of the hum to the quality of the open vowel.
The staccato repetition was for the purpose of bringing an immediate
intensity of vocal attack to the quality emphasized by the first two
procedural steps. All of the vowels were treated in a similar manner.
Swan's reliance upon each section's ability to listen to
itself and to be aware of the musical activity of the other sections
was obvious from the outset. Some time was devoted to the combination
listening-singing exercise involved in singing well-in-tune octaves
between various sections. Sustained octaves were sung in chromatic
succession by combinations of the male sections and the female sec
tions, and by the entire ensemble. The point of emphasis was always
that the individual should listen so that he might sing in tune within
his choral section and in tune with the whole chorus.
"Pronunciation" was a word used by Swan with reference to the
vocal quality of vowel production. He felt that it was important for
each of the choral sections to have a concept of all the other choral
sections. In order to do that, the chorus would hum a unison pitch
until the conductor pointed to a particular section. At the indication
those voices would sing an agreed upon vowel while the rest sustained
the hum. The same procedure was then followed as the ensemble hummed
a tonic chord.
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The individual singer's responsibility to listen was not
only for purposes of good intonation and for an awareness of vowel
production, but also so that he might maintain a relative balance of
tonal volume between his part and the other choral parts. Swan re
ferred to his concept of choral balance as the "pyramid concept." The
broad base of the "pyramid" indicated the greater volume necessary
from the lowest male and female voices. Successively higher parts
required less and less tonal volume. It was then pointed out that
certain vowels have an inherent intensity which is greater than that
of other vowels. Therefore, the challenge was to maintain a constant
volume level within the established pattern of balance as the group
sang through all the vowels on a sustained tone. Again, it was the
student's responsibility to maintain his own relative position.
The period of vocal orientation concluded with an effort by
the conductor to unify the rate of vocal vibrato among all the singers.
He worked with one section at a time and called upon each member to
listen for and to try to match the predominate "beat" of the vibrato
rate within the section. For some individuals who normally sang
without vibrato it meant the necessity to "manufacture" it. For oth
ers, it imposed the necessity to reduce the normal rate of vibrato.
The conductor impressed upon the singers that they were neither to
attempt to remove the vibrato nor to withdraw their voices in an
accommodating effort. After a considerable time, occasional moments
of unity seemed to occur, but the writer had some feeling that the
singers were not entirely certain of the purpose of their efforts.
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Swan was careful to say, however, that the development of a unified
vibrato involved an extended and a deliberate process which would
require much time and much thought for all of them. His final remarks
during the choral "warm-up" portion of the rehearsal constituted a
recapitulation of all of the preceding vocal exercises together with
the reasons for their necessity. He frequently impressed upon the
group the importance of their ability to understand the reason for
each of his requests.
The conductor's personality before the ensemble was largely
revealed through his comments. In a businesslike and always courteous
manner he spoke frequently and sometimes at length during the rehears
al. The rather substantial reliance upon the spoken comment depended
for its effectiveness upon the ability of each singer to apply the
principle to the music. He encouraged individual expressiveness and
a personal kind of musical response as he urged them to "sing like
soloists." Attempts were made to enhance independent musical aware
ness by occasionally asking the group to express itself concerning the
reasons for particular musical indications in the score. At all
times, however, it was made absolutely clear that artistic refinement
could occur only to the extent of the chorus's ability to listen
actively to instructions and to be cognizant of those instructions as
they sang. Following a period of rehearsal, Swan would further
inculcate his ideas by recapitulating the points which had just been
stressed.
Humor in the rehearsal was not infrequent, though it was
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generally of a mild nature in keeping with the attentive reserve of
the rehearsal atmosphere. Invariably, the most successful humor arose
from a circumstance surrounding the group's own musical efforts and
errors. Though the chorus laughed at itself, the fact that humor
followed a musical attempt implied a realization on their part of the
way in which they had erred.
Using a rehearsal sheet upon which was written an agenda of
rehearsal procedures, Swan took full advantage of the unusually
extended amount of available time. He worked in a very patient manner
which demonstrated a great capacity for attention to detail. The pace
of the rehearsal was by no means rapid, and the conductor felt little
necessity to minimize either the frequency or the duration of his
commentary. Striving for improved intonation, vowel production, tonal
balance, adherence to dynamics, and dramatic expression, he would
often repeat musical passages for fifteen minutes at a time. In spite
of the laborious process of refinement, the singers appeared to remain
respectfully attentive and continued to exercise intelligent musical
effort throughout the rehearsal.
The individual self-reliance and the musical awareness which
were the emphasis of most of Swan's comment became implied necessities
by the nature of his conducting. For the majority of the time he
remained at his music stand and conducted with a steady pattern which
involved very few cues for choral movement. This did not mean that he
was indifferent to any facet of choral precision. On the contrary,
his insistence upon accuracy of detail was considerable. However,
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instead of employing a conducting style which was indicative of
musical subtlety, he demanded that the chorus assume the responsibility
for meeting the artistic requirements, whether expressed or impliedin
the musical score. Most of the conducting was done with the right
hand, although both hands came into use for purposes of special musical
emphasis and to highlight any changes in meter. At the other extreme
and coincident with his insistence upon individual awareness of the
other choral parts, Swan would occasionally stop conducting so that as
the group continued to sing it was forced to impose its own rhythmic
regularity.
A concern for the dramatic intent of the text and for its
musical illustration appeared to be the motivating element for virtu
ally every rehearsal effort. Swan emphasized the dramatic idea in
order to effect changes in the texture of the choral tone. Such
changes could occur only to the extent that the singers experienced
the impact within themselves of the composer's intent. As each person
was encouraged to identify himself with the musical drama, he was at
the same time encouragedto give it his most personal vocal expression.
The result was a well supported and controlled tone from the male
voices, who sang with considerable strength and with moderate vibrato.
The women's voices, particularly in the upper range, were dominated
by a very free vibrato which had a tendency to obscure the pitch on
sustained tones. In no case was the primary consideration one of
choral blend. Rather, aspects of blend, intonation, phrasing, and the
clear articulation of consonants and vowels were all considered to be
124
the natural concomitants of the kind of musical sensitivity which
would best reveal the music.
Swan stressed the necessity for constant thinking and listen
ing in order to realize technical refinements. Proper intonation,
which always received his most exacting and critical attention, can
be developed only through an accurate concept of the musical interval.
Just as the singer must think a pitch before he sings it, so must he
have a predetermined concept of rhythms, consonants, and vowels. The
music's dramatic intent, he explained, affects all of these. Pre
cision and technical unanimity are essential to the potent communica
tion of art. Clapping certain rhythms and speaking the text in rhythm
helped to solve some problems by initially dissociating them from the
notes. Further musical precision is determined by consonant attacks
which in turn derive their character and relative emphasis from the
textual idea. Technique is essential, but it exists solely to serve
the arts as a vehicle for communication.
Summary
A. Musical training and teaching experience
1. Swan's undergraduate, as well as his graduate study,
was primarily in areas outside the field of music.
2. He elected to take courses as an undergraduate which
were the equivalent of a minor in music.
3- His musical experiences as a student were largely
unchallenging and contributed insignificantly to his
125
subsequent musical development.
4- His present choral views were developed as a result of
personal associations and study with men whom he met
following his college years.
5. His willingness to change from high school teaching to
college teaching grew from a desire to work in music
with more mature students and for the enhanced oppor
tunities to influence the philosophies and the lives
of singers.
B. Music philosophy
1. Involving much more than technical considerations, the
most moving and highly penetrating musical perfoimance
with the emotion of the musical idea.
2. As the conductor selects and interprets music which
deals with certain human values, he has the opportunity
to inculcate his own social and religious philosophy.
3. The selection of choral repertoire should reflect the
conductor's consideration of both the performer and
the listener.
4. Legitimate literature comparisons and evaluations may
be determined only among selections within the same
category of musical style and intent so that the con
ductor is obligated to search for the finest represen
tation of any musical category for which there is a
126
felt need.
5. The assimilated musical idea must serve as the stimulus
which suggests the appropriate conducting and rehearsal
technique.
imitation.
1. Good choral literature from any compositional era is
typified by a uniqueness, a consistency, and an intel
ligence of musical expression.
2. The skill of compositional craftsmanship, combined
with the creativity of inspired innovation, constitutes
intelligence in music literature.
3* No element could contribute more strongly to musical
4. The chorus which shares the conductor's basic musical
ideas is much more likely to respond with a communica
tion which reflects his artistic impression.
1. The selection of singers for the Occidental College
glee clubs is based almost entirely upon the appli
cant's ability to sing "to the center of the pitch,"
to sing rhythmically, and to produce a tone of at
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least normal volume.
2. Swan prefers, though he does not always demand, that
members of the ensemble have the ability to read music.
3. As the voices in a choir change from year to year, the
conductor should experiment with a variety of seating
arrangements for purposes of improving choral blend or
for improving intonation.
4. Because conductors and outside groups often make
excessive performance demands upon choral organiza
tions, only concerts which can validly demonstrate
their usefulness to both the school and the student
should be undertaken.
E. Eehearsal techniques and choral concepts
1. Persistent demands for the acquisition of specific
vocal techniques will result in a highly predictable
quality of choral tone.
2. The human voice may be successfully guided in any one
of several tonal directions, but it will not function
with equal success in more than one of these direc
tions .
3. The ideal tone for which Swan strives is built upon
the fullest possible vocal expression by each individ
ual as he is encouraged to sing in his most natural
manner.
4. It is a mistake for the conductor to couch all of his
128
comments concerning tone production in terms of his
own subjective singing sensations.
5. Rather than to direct a singer's consciousness toward
a tonal result, he should be led to consider the
physical causes which are likely to produce the tone
for which he strives.
6. The communication of textual implication constitutes
and instrumental conducting.
7- In order of relative importance, the conductor has at
his disposal his face, his body, and his hands.
8. Poor choral intonation is caused principally by the
failure of conductors to develop in singers an
accurate concept of the melodic interval.
F. Factors concerning festival choruses
1. Regardless of the quantity of choral literature to be
sung, the conductor has an educational responsibility
to the chorus to choose music which is representative
of a variety of compositional periods.
2. Music which requires a very fast tempo, or which
involves either very "close" or widely "spread"
harmonic writing, or which consists primarily of short
phrases, should be avoided for use with large groups.
1. The widespread inability of conductors to demonstrate
129
a sensitivity to the musical phrase seems to be
related to a similar inability to choose a proper
tempo.
2. Choruses fail to communicate or even to sense for
themselves the emotional significance of great musical
ideas because their conductors fail to reveal emotion.
3. Choral conductors do not know enough about some
musical styles to become excited about them.
4. Potential choral conductors are not being exposed to
the kind of musical information and to the kind of
musical example which ultimately should become the
basis for artistic discrimination.
5. The aspiring conductor should expose himself to a
variety of choral concepts by singing with several
groups, and he should read every available book which
deals with some aspect of style in music.
H. The rehearsal
1. Technique is essential, but it exists solely to serve
the arts as a vehicle for communication.
2. The obligation of the conductor is to lead the singer
to think and to express with musical independence and
yet to be aware of his position of responsibility
•within the ensemble.
Swan's awareness of the effect of stylistic requirements and
dramatic musical intent upon his interpretive discrimination results
130
in persistent efforts to encourage a similar kind of recognition and
expression on the part of each choral member. He believes that the
student who truly perceives a musical idea for himself is far more
likely to communicate an intelligible impression to the listener.
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CHAPTER VI
SUMMARY, CONCLUSIONS, AND RECOMMENDATIONS
Summary
The following statements constitute a synthesis of the ideas
which were especially emphasized by each interviewee in the discussion
of his music background, music philosophy, choral concepts, and choral
techniques.
A. Roger "Wagner
1. Roger Wagner's earliest school years, as well as a
major portion of the time devoted to undergraduate
study, were spent in France.
2. His current choral concepts were developed independent
of positive relationships with other choral personali
ties.
3. He attributes great significance to the musical in
sight and to the disciplines of phrasing and intonation
which were imposed by his strong Catholic background
in the Greek modes, Gregorian chant, and in Renaissance
music.
4. Just as all music is the artistic expression of an
idea, so has vocal tone quality the capacity to reflect
the emotional atmosphere surrounding that idea.
132
5. Musical intuition and the capacity to re-create, if
it exists at all, can be developed.
6. Every choral conductor should know the great choral
works, should search for their inherent dramatic
intensity, and should be familiar with the music
styles of which they are exemplary, if he would
develop his musical discrimination and his musical
insight.
7. Mutually enhancing textual, harmonic, and melodic
expressions are indications of good choral literature.
8. Inasmuch as singers normally reflect the conductor's
attitude, the more deeply a conductor can penetrate
the music, and the more closely identified with it he
can become, the greater will be the choral affection
for the music.
9- The conductor's ability to inspire his singers is the
most important contributor to good group morale, to
sustained growth in their creativity, and to regular
rehearsal attendance.
10. In addition to demonstrating an ability to read music,
the good ensemble singer should possess an easily
integrated voice which embodies a tonal purity which
can be controlled to the extent that neither stridency
nor excessive vibrato protrudes.
133
11. Because the general ability to read music would have
an enormously revitalizing effect upon music activity
across the country, students at all levels in the
public schools should be taught to read music as they
are taught other basic subjects.
12. Choral and instrumental conducting are fundamentally
without difference to the extent that conducting
style should always be in character with the music,
so that it appears as the music is to sound, and so
that each motion has its audible manifestation.
13* The primary cause of persistent choral intonation
problems is the lack of pitch consciousness on the
part of the conductor.
14. When selecting festival chorus music, technically
accessible compositions by the master composers
should be given first consideration.
15. With festival choruses as well as with choruses of
smaller proportions, rhythmic precision constitutes
one of the strongest unifying elements.
16. Poor choice of choral literature, poor phrasing, poor
intonation, and a lack of dramatic communication on
the part of many conductors are some of the indica
tions of widespread weakness in general musicianship
which Wagner observes and which he attributes either
to the inadequate person or to inadequate training.
134
17. The study of music literature and of compositional
styles which are exemplary of all periods in music
history should be a part of every conductor's
preparation.
18. In addition to technical suggestions for ever-
increasing precision in rehearsal, Wagner sought
to affect the quality of the ensemble sound through
efforts to generate more excitement within the singers
concerning the dramatic intent of the music.
19* The musical conviction from which so much of Wagner's
expression seemed to stem was that an intimate knowl
edge of a broad range of high-quality choral litera
ture, together with an insight concerning the music
styles which most successfully project inherent drama,
can result in an ability to inspire great singing.
B. Charles Hirt
1. Hirt was trained in both teacher-education and in
conservatory-like institutions.
2. Though many people have contributed to the composite
of his choral viewpoint, Hirt believes that the mature
musician adopts no one's choral "method" as his own,
but arrives at an individual expression as a result of
a dedicated search for the deepest meaning of the
music.
3* Music is not so much a vehicle for conveying specific
135
ideas as it is for conveying emotions and attitudes
of mind which permit the growth of ideas.
inculcating the faith that in music there exists a
transcending efficacy.
5. He attributes a part of the gradual change in his
6. Of greater importance than stylistic variety,in a
choral program is the selection of music which con
tains an expression of emotions and of attitudes of
sufficient prominence as to be strongly communicative
to the listener and to the performer.
7. Native vocal endowment, acquired vocal technique,
musical sensitivity, and music reading ability consti
tute the major abilities and capacities upon which
Hirt insists for membership in his select choral
organization.
8. It is the conductor’s responsibility to challenge and
to inspire a choral group, so that morale may be
established and maintained at a high level.
once again become subjective in its recreation if the
emotion is to be communicated with intensity.
136
10. The conductor, whether in instrumental music or in
choral music, is first of all a musician who inter
prets music and who merely adapts to the expressive
medium.
11. Good choral intonation is essentially the product of
a creative situation, free from "depressants."
12. For small and large choral groups alike, the selection
of music and the approach to rehearsal should always
be with a consideration to the art, the singer, and
the listener.
13. The frequent failure of conductors to realize the
potency of an artistic idea results in a circumstance
in which the emotional and spiritual considerations
of music are often confused with areas of technical
consideration.
14. The institutions which are responsible for the prepara
tion of choral conductors should not expect to teach
conducting as if it were a fixed entity; they should
make every effort to accelerate and to abet the
process of student self-discovery.
techniques in rehearsal, the efforts to reveal the
emotion of the music and to imply techniques through
a communication of the underlying meaning of the music
constitute Hirt's primary approach to artistic
137
refinement.
16. Ideally, the ensemble should discover, and should so
understand its own valid and unique musical expression,
17. The philosophic ideal which seems to permeate every
phase of Hirt's thought and action is that music
embodies a transcendental efficacy which must be
believed and which must be sought after by the indi
vidual, if the art is to be realized within its most
noble context.
C . Howard Swan
1. Swan's undergraduate as well as graduate study was
primarily in areas outside the field of music, though
he elected to take courses which were the equivalent
of a minor in music.
2. Choral singing provides the conductor with opportuni
ties to influence the philosophies and the lives of
the singers.
3. His present choral views were developed as a result of
personal associations and study with men whom he met
subsequent to his college years.
4 . Involving much more than technical considerations, the
most moving and highly penetrating musical performance
13d
■with the emotion of the musical idea.
5. The selection of choral repertoire should reflect the
conductor's consideration of both the performer and
the listener.
6. Legitimate literature comparisons and evaluations may
be determined only among selections -within the same
category of musical style and intent, and therefore
the conductor is obligated to search for the finest
representation of any musical category for which there
is a felt need.
7. The assimilated musical idea must serve as the
stimulus which suggests the appropriate conducting
and rehearsal technique.
to foster imitation.
9. Good choral literature from any compositional era is
typified by a uniqueness, a consistency, and an
intelligence of musical expression.
10. No element could contribute more strongly to musical
11. Though Swan prefers that the members of his chorus
have the ability to read music, the selection is based
almost entirely upon an applicant's ability to "sing
139
to the center of the pitch," to sing rhythmically, and
to produce a tone of at least normal volume.
12. Persistent demands for the acquisition of specific
vocal techniques will result in a highly predictable
quality of choral tone which will usually function
more successfully with some musical styles than with
others.
13. The ideal tone for which Swan strives is built upon
the fullest possible vocal expression by each individ
ual as he is encouraged to sing in his most natural
manner.
14. Rather than to direct a singer's consciousness toward
a tonal result, the conductor should lead the singer
to consider the physical causes which are likely to
produce the tone for which he strives.
15. The communication of textual implication constitutes
and instrumental conducting, and justifies their
separate consideration as areas of musical leadership.
16. Poor choral intonation is caused principally by the
failure of conductors to develop in singers an accurate
concept of the melodic interval.
17. Choral conductors choose inappropriate tempi, appear
to be insensitive to the musical phrase, and fail to
reveal emotion to their groups because they are
140
insufficiently aware of the elements essential to many
music styles.
18. In rehearsal Swan emphasized that technique is
essential, but that it exists solely to serve art as
a vehicle for communication.
19* He demonstrated that the obligation of the conductor
is to lead the singer to think and to express with
musical independence and yet to be aware of his
position of responsibility within the ensemble.
Conclusions
Though the academic and the music backgrounds of the selected
conductors were highly dissimilar, twenty-five years or more of
experience in the choral field led each to an expression of virtually
identical values which they feel to be central to the exercise of
every act of musical leadership. The three conductors discussed these
values in a variety of terms and expressed them with a variety of
rehearsal techniques, but it was evident to the writer that a common
insight motivated each toward a common goal.
Wagner, Hirt, and Swan share the conviction that the refine
ment of the artistic and technical discrimination of a conductor who
possesses the capacity to grow in musical sensitivity is almost
entirely dependent upon:
1. His initial knowledge of the significant choral works of
the major compositional periods, together with an insight
141
concerning the stylistic characteristics of which they
are exemplary.
2. His ability to discern and to identify himself emotionally
with the inherent dramatic intent of the musical idea
contained within a composition.
The musical values and the artistic discrimination which stem
from a reference standard of choral literature and compositional
styles, coupled with a sensitivity to emotional drama, become the
fundamental determiners affecting:
1. The conductor's choice of choral literature and the
expansion of his repertoire within the framework of
tasteful and cogent criteria.
2. The conductor's rehearsal preparation and the anticipation
of the choral problems which are related to the proper
interpretation of style and to dramatic communication.
3. The rehearsal procedures and the technical devices which
the conductor employs to achieve interpretive goals.
a. The nature of his conducting gesture, facial expres
sion, and spoken comment.
b. His emphasis upon the communicative importance of
ensemble identification with the musical idea.
c. The tone quality or vocal texture which he desires.
d. His ability to maintain high morale and musical enthu
siasm within the ensemble through the kind of exciting
leadership inspired by his own conviction.
142
e. His decision concerning the relative importance of
textual clarity and musical mood.
f. His emphasis upon specific kinds of consonant and
vowel quality.
g. His emphasis upon rhythm or upon legato line.
h. His choice of musical tempo and its subsequent effect
upon sensitive phrasing.
i. His insistence upon the degree of subtlety of dynamic
variation.
4* The ultimate communicative intensity of choral performance
as the conductor communicates with the ensemble and as the
ensemble communicates with the listener.
Therefore, inspiring and creative musical leadership is the
product of an individual's ability to penetrate and to assimilate for
himself music's deepest meaning. This statement implies that conduct
ing classes which concern themselves with no more than a technical
emphasis upon the habituation of metric and rhythmic gesture fall far
short of their attainable effectiveness. Such procedures foster
thoughtless imitation rather than creativity. Stereotyped conducting
techniques do not provide the solutions to the infinite number of
choral problems posed by the variety of musical styles and textual
expressions. Quite the opposite, it is the dramatic musical intent
within the framework of stylistic limitation which must suggest the
appropriate conducting technique.
Beyond the point of habituating basic metric patterns and
143
developing a general physical coordination, conducting is not taught
but is discovered. The student may be encouraged and advised in the
course of his learning process but he will only become independently
creative in an authoritative manner to the extent of his developed
capacity to comprehend the mutually enhancing qualities of technique
and emotion in musical expression.
Recommendations
Inasmuch as an initial familiarity with the significant choral
works of the major compositional periods, an insight concerning the
stylistic characteristics of which they are exemplary, and an ability
to discern and to identify himself emotionally with the inherent
dramatic intent of a musical idea are essential to the refinement of
a choral conductor's artistic discrimination and communication, the
writer wishes to recommend that institutions which prepare choral
conductors place curricular and experiential emphasis upon:
1. The earliest habituation of the standard conducting
patterns which necessarily involve a greater concern for
physical coordination than for artistic communication.
2. Conducting classes which strongly encourage the student's
independent discovery and expression of the technical and
emotional implications of compositional style and dramatic
intent contained within the literature of outstanding
composers.
3« The kind of collegiate choral rehearsal which provides the
student with the incentive as well as the opportunity to
grow in his ability to discern the technical and emotional
intent of dramatic musical expression within the stylistic
boundaries of exemplary choral works.
4. A program of continuous vocal instruction for the under
graduate student of choral conducting, in which he should
develop the artistic use of his own instrument through the
mastery of vocal techniques and in which he should discover
the stylistic and emotional origins of technical demands
imposed by the vocal literature of major composers.
5. Music history and music literature courses, whether
chorally or instrumentally oriented, which place signifi
cant emphasis upon the relationship between harmonic,
melodic, rhythmic, and formal stylistic devices and the
philosophically derived expression of an emotional idea.
6. Courses in music theory which relate the analysis of
harmonic, melodic, rhythmic, and formal practices of
significant composers to the actual effect of such prac
tices upon the emotional atmosphere and the dramatic
intensity of an artistic idea.
7. A program for preparing choral conductors which results
not only in the student's facility to read music at sight
with reasonable fluency, but which also inculcates the
value of and a practical method for teaching a similar
facility to public school students.
145
ANNOTATED BIBLIOGRAPHY
Books
Braithwaite, H. W. The Conductor's Art. London: Williams and

Norgate Ltd., n.d.
The author states that the matter of complete control
over the technique of the conducting pattern is absolutely
essential. The artist-conductor must demonstrate musician
ship, interpretive powers, and a flawless sense of pitch.
The personality and the power to sway groups of performers
is essential if a conductor is to rise from the lowest ranks.
Sections of the book discuss the physical movements of
conducting, style and performance, and the opera.
Cain, Noble. Choral Music and Its Practice. New York: M. Witmark
and Sons, 1932.
The human voice, among all instruments capable of producing
musical sound, is unquestionably the most versatile and the
most personally expressive. Choral singing, aside from being
almost sacred in the spiritual capacity of its utterance,
constitutes the musical salvation of the United States if
the country is to be other than passive in its musical
participation.
The major portion of the book involves a rather elementary
treatment of technical choral problems and contains an
appended list of choral literature.
Christy, Van A. Evaluation of Choral Music. (Contributions to

EducationT) New York: Teachers College, Columbia University,
1948.
The general criteria for evaluating choral literature were,
in order of importance, worth, and expressiveness of the music,
literary worth, reasonable range and difficulty of parts, and
proper appeal to the average chorus member and to the average
audience. Four groups of experienced music judges, in
addition to choruses and audience groups, participated in
this study.
Christy, Van A. Glee Club and Chorus. New York: G. Schiimer, Inc.,
1940.
This is an effort to compile in one volume, in outline form,
the information which the author feels should be available to
all choral conductors. Divided into two parts, the first part
146
of the book concerns the processes of organizing, conducting,

and maintaining glee clubs and choruses. The second part
lists recommended choral materials for mixed voices, men's
voices, and treble voices.
The author feels that choral conductors are poorly trained
by most institutions and proceeds to list the important
qualifications for choral conductors. These are:
1. Love of music and joy in its expression.
2. Good sense of pitch and rhythm.
3. Imaginative interpretive sense.
4- Mastery of conducting mechanics sufficient to
indicate the musical ideas.
5. Commanding yet pleasing personality. (Humor,
cheerfulness, and patience.)
6. Persistence in self-improvement.
7. Solo performance ability.
Aspects of valuable training would include the study of
voice, conducting, a solo instrument, harmony, and choral
writing. Prospective choral conductors should participate
in much ensemble singing and gamer all possible conducting
experience before choral and instrumental ensembles.
Coward, Henry. Choral Technique and Interpretation. New York:

The H. W. Gray Co., Inc., n.d.
A volume written during the early years of the twentieth
century, this book reflects a late nineteenth century analysis
of choral views. The "new technique" of choral singing is
defined by the author as consisting of greater vocal control
on the part of the singers, a more refined quality of dynamic
expression, greater articulation of consonants and vowels,
increased attention to phrasing, the exaltation of rhythmic
precision, and a refined control of breath support.
The present writer feels that this is little more than
an awareness of the potential detail and artistic subtlety
largely taken for granted by most contemporary choral
musicians.
Ewen, David. Dictators of the Baton. Chicago and New York: Alliance
Book Corporation, 1943*
Biographical, critical, and personal portraits of thirty
of the leading orchestral conductors in the United States
are presented.
Finn, William J. The Art of the Choral Conductor. Boston:

C. C. Birchard and Company, 1939*
The primary requisite for choral effectiveness is beauty
of tone. The conductor must be a master of vocalism and
ensemble singing. He must know organ registration and
orchestration in order to meet the responsibilities imposed
147
by such accompaniments. As principles of interpretation, the

author enumerates reading rhythmical forms, choice of correct
tempi, use of rubato, determining dynamic intensity, and a
thorough acquaintance with the styles of the various schools
of composition.
Finn, William J. The Conductor Raises His Baton. New York: Harper
and Brothers, 1944 •
The volume deals basically with tempo and with dynamics
as they relate to choral performance. The author stresses
the similarity of interpretive idea for the orchestral
conductor as well as the choral conductor. Tempo and dynamic
considerations are subsequently discussed as they constitute
quantitative ratios in rhythm, phrasing, balancing of melody
and harmony, the apposition of contrapuntal figures, the
tension of canon and fugue, and the horizontal line of
polyphony.
Garretson, Robert I. Conducting Choral Music. Boston: Allyn and

Bacon, Inc., 1961.
After suggesting that choral music is important to human
beings from the standpoint of meeting their aesthetic needs,
physical and mental-health needs, social needs, avocational
and vocational needs, the author addresses himself to the task
of suggesting solutions to problems which choral conductors
are most likely to encounter during their first few years of
teaching. These problems he categorizes as relating to tone
and diction, rehearsal techniques, conducting techniques,
and organization and management. In addition to topics for
discussion and lists of reference materials at the close
of each chapter, the author appends a considerable amount
of practical information dealing with choral composers and
compositions, music publishers, films on choral music, dis
tributors of films, manufacturers of music equipment, and
hand signals for television broadcasts.
Goldbeck, Frederick. The Perfect Conductor. New York: Pellegrini

and Cudahy, 1951*
A volume for the layman, or at least the non-conducting
musician, the book serves as an introduction to the skill
and the art of conducting. Cleverly written discussions are
centered about the maestro, the music score, the orchestra,
conductor-player relationships, and baton techniques. The
inarticulate action of presence made articulate, when applied
to music, constitutes.the conductor's job. There is some
emphasis upon the matter of mentally projecting the
intellectualized, unspoken, musical idea from conductor to
performing group.
148
Howerton, George. Technique and Style in Choral Singing. New York:

Carl Fischer, Inc., 1957 •
The book consists of a main division dealing with choral
techniques and another division dealing with elements of
appropriate choral style. Technically, significant emphasis
is placed upon the need for the choral group to grow in its
awareness of vocal problems so that it may effect appropriate
solutions with increasing independence. Stylistically, the
author discusses the general range of elements peculiar to
historical eras of composition as they relate to meter and
tempo, the structural relationship between counterpoint and
harmony, the expressive quality of the score, and the dynamic
scheme.
Jones, Archie N. Techniques in Choral Conducting. New York: Carl

Fischer, Inc., 1948
The author emphasizes the error of thinking that there
is but one way, or even a best way, of approaching a vocal
of choral problem. He encourages the reader to extract,
experiment upon— even improve upon— the ideas presented.
Jones strongly suggests much analytical listening to choral
music in concert or by means of phonograph records.
The present writer believes that such listening, if
unaccompanied by some stylistic insight, could lead to an
effort to duplicate a choral sound rather than to express a
musical idea.
Krueger, Karl. The Way of the Conductor. New York: Charles

Scribner's Sons, 1958.
Music, and the conductor as re-creator, are currently and
necessarily under the considerable influence of the informed
amateur. The professional musician experiences great
difficulty in rising above the ceiling imposed by the musical
stature of his audience. Much of the book traces the
metamorphosis of the performer, the conductor, the orchestra,
and society from their respective musical origins. Beginning
with the subservient musician and composer of the superficial
courts of nobility, the chronology proceeds to the m o d e m
scene of the compulsive composer, more accessible performance,
and the informed layman.
Scherchen, Hermann. Handbook of Conducting. London: Oxford

University Press, 1933-
Music is the most spiritual of the arts. Thus, the con
ductor's domain is largely spiritual and of such character as
to give some indication of his necessary human and artistic
attributes. Lack of imagination is the main defect in
contemporary musical life. Technique has become an end in
itself. Mastery of technique is successful only if applied
149
to the perfect realization and the complete personal

absorption of the music to be recreated.
Schmid, Adolf. The Language of the Baton. New York: G. Schirmer,

Inc., 1937-
The language of conducting does not rest upon metaphysics
but upon a studied science which has evolved a system of
motions. Simplicity and consistency are keynotes. Subservi
ence of technique to the interpretation of the composer's
ideas constitutes the threshold between music as a science
and music as an art. The same techniques are employed whether
conducting an orchestra, a band, or a chorus. Persevering
effort, high artistic ideals, and actual conducting experience
are of great importance. Genius is not required.
Smallman, John, and Wilcox, E. H. The Art of A Cappella Singing.

New York: Oliver Ditson Company, Inc., 1933*
In addition to analyses of sixteen choral works for
technical, interpretive, and appreciative considerations,
the book discusses problems related to the individual voice,
choral technique, repertoire, and interpretation.
Stoessel, Albert. The Technique of the Baton. New York: Carl

Fischer, Inc., 1920.
The volume outlines the developmental history of conducting
and proceeds to illustrate the basic patterns. Numerous
quotations on conducting by well-known orchestral conductors
highlight sections of the book.
Philosophically, the author states that music as an art is
absolutely dependent upon the interpreter. The conductor must
have a matured and clear mental conception of the musical
work before the application of any conducting and rehearsal
techniques. The history of conducting reveals that the art
has gone through three distinct periods which might be called
the "time-beater," "drill-master," and "conductor" phases.
The preparation and performance of any musical score requires
the assumption of all three of these roles by the conductor.
Sunderman, Lloyd Frederick. Some Techniques for Choral Success.

Rockville Centre, New York: Belwon Inc., 1952.
The choir rehearsal must be an action-crammed, musically
educational experience. The author's concept of the musical
experience consists largely of brief discussions concerning
the myriad technical problems related to the use of the voice,
choral organization, the conductor, the rehearsal, and some
physical aspects of performance.
150
Wilson, Harry Robert. Artistic Choral Singing. New York: G.

Schiraer, Inc., 1959-
The author maintains that there is too often a search for
the "vtoat" and the "how" of choral organization and conducting.
This implies a greater concern for tricks and methods than for
the primary reason for the very existence of choral activity.
The "why" then becomes the philosophic motivation which will
often guide in the selection of "what" and suggest the "how"
that will best fit the situation. Music has the capacity to
bring the beautiful and the spiritual into the lives of people.
This, as the conductor's responsibility, is then pursued via
discussions of the problems common to most choral situations.
Wodell, Frederick W. Choir and Chorus Conducting. Bryn Mawr,

Pennsylvania: Theodore Presser Co., 1901.
An apparently popular book, in its twelfth edition, it
expresses the author's recommendation for the solution of
an enormous number of minute and technical choral problems.
151
APPENDIX A
Dear Music Educator:
I am currently engaged in a research project which promises

to reveal much of high interest to the choral musician. Choral
work of a superior order is being carried on in a number of places
throughout the country but too few of us have the opportunity to
study, or to discuss personally, the music philosophies, choral
concepts and techniques employed by the choral leaders whose work
we hold in high regard. I have prepared such an analytical study
and, for the next five minutes, respectfully request the assistance
of your professional judgment.
As a music educator in the California-Western Division of

Music Educators National Conference, you may well recognize some
of the names of choral conductors in Southern California four-year
colleges and universities listed on the enclosed pages. I request
that you simply review this list and "X" the names of those whom
you consider to be outstanding. Though the conductors may vary
with respect to particular choral emphasis, you may still consider
several to be of consistently superior calibre.
It is hoped that the brevity of the information requested on

the following pages may contribute to a prompt return of the
enclosed envelope. Both the initiation of and the direction taken
by this study depend upon your thoughtful response.
Yours sincerely,
Douglas R. McEwen
enclosures
152
The names below, as listed in the i 960 SCVA and SCSBOA Directory
of Members, constitute a compilation of those people engaged in vocal
music in Southern California four-year colleges and universities.
Please indicate an (X) opposite the name(s) of the choral

conductor(s) whose work you believe to be of outstanding superiority
with consideration to a conqposite of: (1) choral tone; (2) choral
literature; (3) artistic interpretation; (4) conducting effectiveness;
and (5) choral precision and discipline.
CHAPMAN COLLEGE PEPPEHDINE COLLEGE’

( ) Sheldon Disrud ( ) George Goldtrap
( ) Clarence Haffringer
LA SIERRA COLLEGE ( ) Russel N. Squire
( ) Frances Brown ( ) George Umberson
( ) John Hamilton
( ) Albert Mayes POMONA COLLEGE
( ) Margery Briggs
LA VERNE COLLEGE ( ) Jean Pilon
( ) Ross Stover ( ) William F. Russell
LONG BEACH STATE COLLEGE SAN DIEGO STATE COLLEGE

( ) Charles Neiswander ( ) Paul Anderson
( ) Frank Pooler ( ) Millard Biggs
( ) Cleve Genslinger
LOS ANGELES STATE COLLEGE ( ) Deane Smith
( ) Esther Andreas ( ) J. Dayton Smith
( ) Francis Baxter
( ) Louis Hansen SAN FERNANDO VALLEY STATE COLLEGE
( ) Richard Brewer
MOUNT SAINT MARY’S COLLEGE ( ) Bess Hawes
( ) Joseph Rottura ( ) Mary Lou Reilly
( ) Paul Salamunovich ( ) Clarence Wiggins
( ) Margaret Stromer
( ) Helena Sundgreen UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA AT LOS ANGELES
( ) Irving Beckman
OCCIDENTAL COLLEGE ( ) Maurice Gerow
( ) Olaf Frodsham ( ) Wolfgang Martin
( ) Cora Lauridsen ( ) Raymond Moreman
( ) Howard Swan ( ) Maryo Van Deman
( ) Roger Wagner
ORANGE COUNTY STATE COLLEGE ( ) Waldo Winger
( ) David Thorsen ( ) Ervin Winward
153
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA AT SANTA BARBARA WESTMONT COLLEGE

( ) Van Christy ( ) John Hubbard
( ) Dorothy Westra ( ) John Lundberg
( ) Carl Zytowski
WHITTIER COLLEGE
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA AT RIVERSIDE ( ) Eugene M. Riddle
( ) William H. Reynolds ( ) Gerald Shepard
UNIVERSITY OF REDLANDS
( ) Larra Henderson
( ) J. William Jones
( ) Erwin Ruff
UNIVERSITY OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA

( ) Maurice Allard
( ) Charles Hirt
( ) Karl Laufkotter
( ) Royce Salzman
( ) Jane Skinner
( ) William Vennard
( ) I know the work of none of the above well enough to render an

intelligent decision.
( ) In my estimation, none of the above qualifies as a superior choral

conductor.
Comments, if any, concerning selections):_______________________
I am a member of the______________ Vocal

(state)
Association and/or Music Educators Association of the California-
Western Division of Music Educators National Conference.
Please return the pages numbered one and two in the enclosed,
stamped envelope.
154
APPENDIX B
PERFORMED AND/OR RECOMMENDED CHORAL REPERTOIRE
The following list of choral literature consists of repertoire

compiled from programs of choral performances given by the selected
conductors or compiled from recommended lists of choral materials
published by those conductors.
Roger Wagner
University of California at Los Angeles
Title Compo ser-Arranger
Pre-Renaissance
Ave Verum Gregorian

Gaudeamus (Introit) Gregorian
Magnificat Gregorian chant with
faux-bourdon
Vexilla Regis Gregorian chant
0 Come, 0 Come Emmanuel Plain chant, arr. Runkel
Renaissance-Secular
Pavan Byrd-Bell
Come Away Sweet Love Greaves
Echo Song Lasso
Renai ssance-Sacred
Ave Regina Coelorum Aichinger

Ave Vera Virginitas Des Pres
In Ecclesiis G. Gabrieli
Jubilate Deo G. Gabrieli
Psalm XXIV Goudimel
Cantate Domino Hassler
Dixit Maria Hassler
Tenebrae Factae Sunt Ingegneri
Adoramus Te, Christe Lasso
155
Title Composer-Arranger
Diffusa est Gratia Nanini

Hodie Nobis Nanini
Adoramus Te Palestrina
Hodie Christus Natus Est Palestrina
Missa Brevis Palestrina
Super Flumina Babylonis Palestrina
Tu es Petrus Palestrina
Cantantibus Organis Ravenello
Hodie Christus Natus Est Svieelinck
Exultate Justi Viadana
Ave Maria Vittoria
0 Vos Omnes Vittoria
Baroque-Secular
The Coffee Cantata Bach

Hear the Murmuring Waters Monteverdi
Baroque-Sacred
Cantata No. 4 Bach

S.A. Duet from Cantata No. 78 Bach
Cantata No. 146 Bach
Christmas Oratorio Bach
For Unto Us A Child Is B o m Bach
Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring Bach
St. John Passion Bach
St. Matthew Passion Bach
De Profundis Delalande
Come Thou Now Gluck
Classic-Sacred
Joseph Cherubini
Hallelujah Chorus Handel
Saul, An Oratorio Handel
Two Choruses from Sampson Handel
Then Round About the Starry Throne
To Dust His Glory They Would Tread
Joseph (Opera in three Acts) Mehul
Alleluia Mozart
Four Choruses from Idomenio Mozart
Godiam la Pace
Placido e il mar
156
0 votra tremendo
Scenda Amor
Te Deum K. 141 Mozart
Israel in Egypt Handel
Romantic-Secular
Liebeslieder Waltzes Brahms

1*11 Not Conqplain Schumann-Churchill
Romantic-Sacred
Panis Angelicus Franck

Let Thy. Holy Presence Tschesnokov
Contemporary-Secular
On Our Street Brandao

Snow Legend (SSA) Clokey
Simple Gifts Copland
Let Us Now Praise Famous Men Finzi
Snow Song Foster
Excerpts from "Porgy and Bess" Gershwin
Summertime
It Ain't Necessarily So
Barn Song Grieg
Loneliness (SSA) Handl
Cantique de l'Esperance Hindemith
(Cantata for orchestra, band, chorus)
I Love My Love Holst
All the Things You Are Kern-Hammerstein
Come Roam with Me Luvaas
One World 0 'Kara-Wilson
Song of America Ringwald
Hear the Sledges with the Bells Robertson
Holiday Song W. Schuman
Voices of Liberation Stothart
Heritage of Freedom R. Wagner
I Saw A Fair Maiden Warlock
157
Contemporary-Sacred
The Shepherds Had An Angel Besly

Sacred Service Bloch
A Ceremony of Carols Britten
Duet in Spanish Carol Elhards-Duque
Psalms for Chorus and Orchestra Foss
Psalm 121 and 95
Psalm 98
Psalm 23
Ave Maris Stella Grieg
How Excellent Thy Name Hanson
The Hymn of Jesus Holst
My Eternal King Marshall
The Christmas Story Mennin
Carol of the Birds Niles
Te Deum Peters
Non Nobis Domine Quilter
Ave Maria Rachmaninoff
Virgin's Slumber Song Reger
Mass: Gloria-Sanctus-Benedictus Stravinsky
Alleluia Thompson
Pueri Haegraeorum Thompson
Belshazzar's Feast Walton
Sine Nomine Vaughn-Williams
Traditional and Folk Melodies
In The Night Brahms

I'm Going Away Brahms
The Dead Youth Brahms
How Lovely Is the Maytime Brahms
Three Choral Settings Bryan
The Promised Land
I Have a Mother in the Heavens
Chariottown (American folk song)
Goin' To Boston Davis
Sing We Noel Davis
Taritomba Davis
Balm in Gilead Dawson
If I Got My Ticket Dawson
Mary Had a Baby Dawson
Soon-ah Will Be Done Dawson
Down By the Sally Gardens (Old Irish Air) Donavan
He's Got the Whole World In His Hands Forrest
(Negro Spiritual)
158
I Dream of Jeanie Foster-Wagner

My Old Kentucky Home Foster-Wagner
Oh Lemuel Foster-Wagner
Elijah Rock Hariston
Great God Amighty Hariston
Who'll Be a Witness, Lord? Hariston
I Want Jesus Henderson
Christmas Day Hoslt
Battle Hymn of the Republic Howe-Steffy-Ringwald
Santa Lucia Katies
I Wonder As I Wander Niles-Horton
Turtle Dove Niles
Jingle Bells Pierpont
From the Craggy Mountains Schimmerling
Adieu a la Jeunesse (French) G. Davis
Au Clair de la luna Terri
Cockles and Mussles Terri
Frere Jacques Terri
Green Sleeves Terri
J ’ai du bon Tabac Terri
Oh No, John Terri
Rosa Terri
When Love is Kind Terri
Au Clair de la lune (S.S.A.) Vene
En Passant Par La Lorraine (S.S.A.) Vene
Jardin D ’Amour (S.S.A.) Vene
Angels Vie Have Heard On High Wagner
All Thru the Night Wagner
Ash Grove Wagner
Baile de Gaita Wagner
Flow Gently Wagner
Green Grow the Lilacs Wagner
He Is B o m Wagner
Loch Lomond Wagner
Men of Harlech Wagner
Muss I denn Wagner-Ahrold
0 Tannenbaum Wagner-Ahrold
Skip To My Lou Wagner
Sometimes I Feel Like a Motherless Child Wagner
Black Is the Color of My True Love’s Hair Folk Song
Dashing Away With the Smoothing Iron English Folk Song
Dry Bones Traditional
I Wonder As I Wander Appalachian Folk Song
Sing We Noel 16th Century
The Old Woman and the Peddler English
Villancico Espanol Traditional Spanish
159
Charles C. Hirt
University of Southern California
Renaissance-Secular
Farewell My Love Anon.-Hirt

La tete me fait si grand mal Anon.
Ecco D'oro L ’eta (Hail Age of Pure Gold) Arcadelt
Two Madrigals by Michelangelo Arcadelt
Weep 0 Mine Eyes Bennet
Dear Love, Whom I Adore Binchois-Saar
Fa, La, La, I Cannot Conceal It Certon
Come Again, Sweet Dowland
Sleep, Wayward Thoughts Dowland
Fair Nymphs Farmer
Fair Phyllis I Saw Farmer
0 Stay, Sweet Love Farmer-Fellowes
To Take the Air A Bonny Lass Was Walking Farmer
My Bonny Lass She Smileth Fellowes
Dormant French-Lowens
Love Has Now Become a Stranger Gabrieli
Come Let Your Hearts Be Singing Gastoldi
Madrigal Gesualdo
Dainty Fine Bird Gibbons
Fair Is The Rose Gibbons
The Silver Swan Gibbons
Dancing and Springing Hassler-Rhodes
Fair Maid, Thy Loveliness Hassler
Now Let Us Lift Our Youthful Voices Hassler
With Love My Heart Is Ringing Hassler-Rhodes
Innsbruck, Now I Must Leave Thee Isaac-Howerton
As I Walked Forth R. Johnson
Sweet Kate Jones
Ah, Could My Eyes Behold Thee Lasso
Ich weiss mit ein Meidlein Lasso
I Know a Young Maiden Lasso
Matona, Lovely Maiden Lasso
My Heart Is Offered Still to You Lasso
0 Lady Fair Lasso
Out of Range of Cupid's Bow Lasso
Valley, Deep Valley (Polychoral) Lasso
Revecy Venir du Printans LeJeune
Come Sing This Round With Me Martini
April Is In My Mistress' Face Morley
I Love Alas, I Love Thee Morley
Since My Tears and Lamenting Morley
What Saith My Dainty Darling? Morley
160
Ah, You Would See Palestrina

Death Is But Sleep Palestrina
Vedrassi prima, senza luce il sole Palestrina
11 Est Bel Et Bon Passereau
When Allen-A-Dale Went A-Hunting de Pearsall
Rest, Sweet Nymphs Pilkington
In The Merry Spring Ravenscroft
The Ringing of the Bells Senfl-Howerton
The Cuckoo Stephani-Rhodes
I Always Loved To Call My Lady Rose Squire
Fa Una Canzone (Sing Me a Song) Vecchi-Parker-Shaw
Hard By A Fountain Waelrant-Hullah
Lady, Your Eie Weelkes
On the Plains Weelkes
Adieu, Sweet Amarylis Wilbye-Katz
Flora Gave Me Fairest Flowers Wilbye-Wiseman
Thus Saith My Cloris Bright Wilbye
Renaissance-Sacred
Christus Factus Est Anerio

Jesus, Lover of My Soul Arcadelt
Hear My Prayer, 0 Lord Arcadelt
I Need Thee, Precious Saviour Bourgeois-Roff
I Have Longed For Thy Saving Health Byrd-Whitehead
Sacerdotes Domini Byrd
Lamb of God German Chorale
-Christiansen
Adoramus Te Clement
Adoramus Te Corsi
Two Motets Durante
Et Incamatus
Crucifixus
Call to Remembrance Farrant
0 Lux Beata Trinitas Fayrfax-Warren
Almighty God Who Hast Me Brought Ford
Almighty and Everlasting God Gibbons-Fellowes
0 Lord, Increase My Faith Gibbons
At the Name of Jesus Handl
Resonet in Laudibus Handl-Grayson
Ave Maria des Pres
Salve Regina des Pres-David
Tenebrae Factae Sunt Ingegneri-Collinger
Vere Languores Nostros Lotti
Christe Adoramus Te Monteverdi
Lasciatemi morire Monteverdi
161
0 Vos Omnes Morales-Scott

Agnus Dei Morley-Chri stians en
Three Motets in Four Parts Morley
Easter Motet
A Prayer
Agnus Dei
Adoramus Te Christus Palestrina
Ad Te Levavi Oculos Meos Palestrina
Dies Sanctificatus Palestrina
0 Blessed Jesus Palestrina
Thou all Transcendent Deity Palestrina
Unto Thee Lift I Up Mine Eyes Palestrina
Why Do the Heathens Rage Pale strina-Lundqui st
Psallite ■ Praetorius
The 90th Psalm Sweelinclc-Karz
If Ye Love Me, Keep My Commandments Tal1is
To Our Redeemer's Glorious Name Tye
Ave Maria Vittoria-Wilhousky
Caligaverunt Oculi Mei Vittoria-Wilhousky
0 Magnum Mysterium Vittoria-Wilhousky
Baroque-Sacred
All Breathing Life Bach

Alleluia, Sing Praise Bach-Hirt
All Glory, Laud and Honour (Cantata 95) Bach
Glory to God Bach-Wilson
Ich lasse Dich nicht Bach
I Will Not Let Thee Go Bach
Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring Bach
0 Rejoice, Ye Christians, Loudly Bach
Peace Be Unto Israel Bach
Sanctus (No. IV in G) Bach
Sheep May Safely Graze Bach
Wachet, betet Bach
Command Thine Angel That He Come Buxtehude-Stone
Lord Our God Dencke
Jesu, By Thee I Would Be Blessed Franck-Melchoir
The Strife Is O'er, the Battle Done Gesius-Bartholomaus
0 Jesu Dulcissime (SSAATTBB) (Polychoral) Gabrieli-Woodworth
Glorious Mystery Sublime (SAATTBB) Gabrieli-Lynn
Jesus' Cross, the Death and Pain Gumpeltzhaimer
Music Spread Thy Voice Around Handel
Swell the Full Chorus Handel
Cantate Domino Hassler
Miserere Mei Lotti-Ehret-Wilson
162
Jesu, We Adore Thy Name Monteverdi

No More Warfare Monteverdi
0 Leave Me Monteverdi
0 Death, Pray Gome Monteverdi
Magnificat in C Major Pachelbel
Agnus Dei Pergolesi-Goldman
Amen (from Stabat Mater) Pergolesi
Blessed Are They Peter
Cantate Domino Pitoni
The Bashful Thames Purcell-Grace
An Evening Hymn Purcell
My Soul Doth Magnify the Lord Purcell
Thou Knowest, Lord, the Secrets of My Heart Purcell
All Men Living Are But Mortal Rosenmuller
How Blessed Are They Rameau-Ross
Exultate Deo Scarlatti, A.
Psalm I Schutz-Lynn
Ehre Sei Dir, Christe Schutz-R. Shaw
From God Shall Naught Divide Me Schutz
Cantate Domino Schutz
Three Motets Schutz
Blessed Are the Faithful
He who with Weeping Soweth
Lo, I am the Voice of one Crying
Christ, our Blessed Saviour Schutz
Give Ear Oh Lord Schutz
I Will Praise the Lord Schutz
Glorify the Lord Sweelinck
Glory Be to Him Wolf-Dickinson
Classic
Let Their Celestial Voices Unite Handel

Harmony in Marriage Haydn
The Heavens Are Telling Haydn
Die Heiligen Zehn Gebote Haydn
Kyrie Eleison Haydn
Mass in C Major Haydn-Hirt
Ye Servants of God Haydn
Ave Verum Mozart
De Profundis Mozart
Laudate Dominum Mozart
Musical Greeting and Tribute Mozart
163
Romantic-Secular
Three Folk Songs Brahms

The White Dove
Morning Song
A Hunter From Heaven
Yver, vous n'etes q'un villain Debussy
Good Night Schumann
Hunter's Song Schumann
Romantic-Sacred
Mass in C Major Beethoven

Come Soon Brahms
Create in Me, 0 God Brahms
0 Cast Me Not Away From Thy Countenance Brahms
0 God, Thou Faithful God Brahms
Ave Maria Bruckner
Holy Radiant Light Gretchaninoff
Hear My Prayer Mendelssohn
Heayenly Father Schubert
La Pastorella Schubert
Psalm 92 Schubert
Anthony 0 Daly Barber

Enchanting Song Bartok
Four Slovak Folk Songs Bartok
Quire doux est coeur d'Amarillis Bofisset
Stomp Your Foot Copland
Three Chorales from Tagore Creston
Cantidi Prifionia Dalla Piccola
Song of the Open Road Dello Joio
Song of Democracy Hanson
Since All Is Passing Hindemith
It Was a Lover and His Lass Kirk .
Three Songs from the Navajo Koh3
Monotone Lockwood
Chansons Francaises, No. 8 Poulenc
La Belle Se Siet Au Pied Do La Tour
Pilon L 'Orge
Margoton Ve T'a L'iau
Jubilate Deo Omnes Terra Peeters
Trois Chanson-Ronde Ravel
164
Three Canzonets Rowley

Out of the Cradle Sanders
The Holiday Song W. Schumann
Go Lovely Rose Stevens, H.
Like As the Culver on the Bared Bough Stevens, H.
Weepe 0 Mine Eyes Stevens, H.
Pater Noster Stravinsky
Have You Not Heard His Silent Steps Toch, Ernst
The Willow Song
Fain Would I Change That Note Williams, R. Vaughan
Contemporary-Sacred
Five Hymns Bacon

The Eternal Goodness
M o m and Night
The Soule
Freedom
Child's Evening Hymn
Psalm 130 Bender
Thy Kingdom Come J. Berger
The Shepherds Had An Angel Besly
Deo Gracias Britten
There Is No Rose Britten
Invocation and Chorale P. Christiansen
Miserere Mei, Deus Dello Joio
Behold I Build An House Foss
Ad Te Domine Gaburo
A Hymn of Joy Goldsworthy
I Am the Living Bread Harwood
Man B o m To Toil Holst
Magnificat, for Soli, Chorus, & Orchestra Hovhaness
0 Sing Unto the Lord Huston
Breathe on Me, Breath of God Lewis
Lord of All Being Malin
0 Come Let Us Sing Unto the Lord Mead
Babylon Milhaud
Psalm 150 Morton
The Song of the Passion Oldroyd
Bread of the World Overly
Tenebrae Factae Sunt Poulenc
Lord Hosanna Schreck
Psalm 23 Shaw
0 God of Youth Schroth
The A m o r of God Sowerby
Benedictus Es, Nomine Sowerby
165
Psalm 148, Praise Ye the Lord Stevens

Grant Us Light Thiman
King of Glory, King of Peace Thiman
Felices Ter Thompson
Glory to God in the Highest Thompson
The Last Words of David Thompson
Eternal Praise Titcomb
God Is Gone Up Titcomb
I Will Not Leave You Comfortless Titcomb
Bless Thy House, 0 Lord Van Hulse
Hodie, Christus Natus Est Willan
Sing We Triumphant Songs Willan
Christ Is The King Williams, David McKay
Prayer to the Father of Heaven Williams, R. Vaughan
Sine Nomine Williams, R. Vaughan
Ching-A-Ring Chaw Copland

I Bought Me A Cat Copland
Las Agachadas Copland
Simple Gifts Copland
Early One Morning Dunhill
The Lobster Quadrille Fine
Jenny Jenkins Gilbert
If I Had a Ribbon Bow Harris, Roy
Dashing Away With the Smoothing Iron Henderson
The Hunter (British) Henderson
Scarborough Fair Henderson
Down by the Sally Gardens Henderson
Won't You Buy My Sweet Blooming Lavendar Henderson
Horah: "Chanitah" Hunter
Paul on the Hill (Norwegian) Johnston
It Was a Lover and His Lass Kirk
Just as the Tide Was Flowing The Krones
Little Bird, Little Bird Kubik
When I Was But a Maiden Kubik
Down in the Valley Lockwood
There is a Ladye Murray
Harper's Greek (Plantation Song) Pooler, Marie
Hacia Belen Va Un Borrico Shaw-Parker
The Pedlar Wilson
166
Howard Swan
Occidental College
Renaissance-Secular
Echo Song Lasso

My Heart Commends Itself To Thee Lasso
(Male Voices)
Revecy Venir Du Printans LeJeune
Hear the Murmuring Waters Monteverdi
Lasciatemi Morire Monteverdi
Fire, Fire My Heart Morley
Fa Una Conzone Vecchi
With Rue My Heart is Laden Ward *
The Nightingale Weelkes
Renais sance-Sacred
Duo Seraphim Aichinger

Benedictus (for three choirs) Gabrieli
Magnificat (for three choirs) Gabrieli
Repleti Sunt Qmnes J. Handl
Sanctus and Osanna Palestrina
Mine Eyes Have Languished Vittoria
Baroque-Sacred
Come, Jesu, Come (Motet for Double Chorus) Bach

Jesu, Dearest Master Bach
Jesu, Meine Freude Bach
We Hasten to Ask for Thine Aid Bach
Zion, Hear the Watchman Buxtehude
Magnificat Gabrieli
Haste Thee, Nymph (for Double Chorus) Handel
Let Me Wander Not Unseen Handel
The Messiah Handel
Gloria From Mass II Hassler
Gratias Agimus Tibi Hassler
How Lovely is Thy Dwelling Place Schtttz
Gloria Vivaldi
Classic-Sacred
Easter Anthem Billings
167
Lord, Who Reignest For Thine Own Mozart

Missa Brevis Mozart
Kyrie
Gloria
Sanctus
Vesperae Solennes de Confessore (K.339) Mozart
Romantic-Secular
Rapsodie (Contralto Solo and Men's Chorus) Brahms

Six Liebeslieder Waltzes Brahms
Three Songs op. 104 Brahms
Nightwatch No.l
Nightwatch No.2
Last Happiness
To My Homeland Brahms
Vier Zigeunerlieder op. 112 Brahms
Vanka N'Tanka Dargomij sky-Was son
Salut Printemps Debussy
Whene'er the Tambourine I Hear Debussy
The Splendor Falls Delius
Album for Male Voices op. 30 Grieg
Grab und Mond (The Grave and the Moon) Schubert
Song of the Spirits Over the Waters Schubert
Vaises Nobles Schubert
Weyla's Song— You Are the Land I Love Wolf
Romantic-Sacred
Day of Judgment Archangelsky

Rejoice My Soul Balakirev
Blessed Are They That Dwell in Thine House Brahms
0 Dearest Jesus Brahms
The Twelve Disciples Brahms
Ye Who Have Walked Alone Brahms
Requiem Faure
Gloria— Only Begotten Son Gretchaninov
Glory to God Gretchaninov
Holy Radiant Light Gretchaninov
Litany of Supplication Gretchaninov
God is With Us Kastalsky
Ah, Mon Fils (le prophete) Meyerbeer
Hallelujah Schubert
Mass in G Schubert
Salvation is Created Tschesnokov
168
Eri tu— "The Masked Ball" Verdi

Hymn to the Virgin Verdi
Hail Gladdening Light Wood
Daybreak by the Sea Alfven

0 Saw Ye the Lass Anderson
A Stopwatch and an Ordinance Map Barber
The Harmony of Morning Carter
Rockin1 Chair Carmi chael-Ringwa]
Stardust Carmichael
No Man Is An Island Clarke
The Promise of Living Copland
(from. "The Tender Land")
A Fable Dello Joio
Snow Towards Evening Fetker
Beautiful Soup (Alice in Wonderland Suite) Fine
Porgy and Bess Gershwin
Five Eyes Gibbs
High Flight Goodale
They Say That Susan Hath No Heart for
Learning Harris
Musik Hedar
Two Eastern Pictures Holst
Spring
Summer
Cantique De Paques Honegger
General William Booth. Enters Into Heaven James
Manhattan Tower Jenkins
When Day Is Dons Katcher-Lawrence
Sing Out Sweet Land Kerr
Odd Show— A Swing Madrigal Klein
Sentences from Whitman Klein
Meadowlands Knipper-Wilhousky
Evening Kodaly
Peregrine White and Virginia Dare Kubik
My Fair Lady Lowe
Hospodi Pomilui Lvovsky
Dirge For Two Veterans MacDonald
Evensong McKenzie
Amelia Goes To the Ball Menotti
The Devil and Daniel Webster Moore
Snow Towards Evening U. Moore
Never Weather-Beaten Sail Morgan
Choruses from "Catulli Carmina" Orff
169
Sam Was a Man Persichetti

Songs Mein Grossmama Sang Pfautsch
Witness arr. Pfautsch
Divertissements Pitfield
The Village Bell
The Lady Moon
The Windmills
Rosalie Porter
Petites Voix Poulenc
Carousel Rodgers and Hammerstein
Hello, Young Lovers Rodgers
Oklahoma! Rodgers
Madrigal Rozza
Brother Will, Brother John Sacco
The Little White Hen Scandello
Orchestra Song Schuman
The Broken Melody Sibelius
The Music Man— Selections Willson
Transcontinental Warren
Railroad Bill Work
Contemporary-Sacred
Brazilian Psalm Berger

Let The Words of My Mouth Bloch
Sacred Service Bloch
The Ceremony of Carols Britten
Who Shall Separate Us from the Love of Christ Bryan
Hosanna F. Christiansen
St. Francis Prayer Crist
Somebody's Coming Dello Joio
At the Cry of the First Bird Fletcher
Amish Carol of the Hills Gaul
Li'l Boy Named David Harris
Choral Hymns from the Rig Veda Holst
Hymn to the Dawi
Hymn to the Waters
Hymn to the Vena (the Sun)
Psalm 148 Holst
Ave Maria Kodaly
0 Thou In Whose Presence Lewis-Cain
Nunc Dimittis Luvaas
Jubilate Deo Peeters
0 Magnum Mysterium Poulenc
Tenebrae Factae Sunt Poulenc
The Virgin's Slumber Song Reger
170
Title______________________________________ Compo ser-Arranger
The Creation Richter

Think On Me Scott
Valiant-For-Truth Williams
Kol Nidre Bruch

Amazing Grace Bryan
Were You There? Burleigh
0 Houp! Canteloube
He's Gone Away Clokey
Ain't That Good News Dawson
Ezekiel Saw de Wheel Dawson
There Is a Balm in Gilead Dawson
The Jumping Frog of Calaveras County Foss
Old Black Joe Foster-Ehrei
0 Susanna Foster-Cain
The Camptown Races Foster-Ehrei
Cowboy’s Night Herding Song Frank
Two Songs on American Indian Lyrics Gold
Oh, Good Sun
Come Not Near My Songs
0 Dear What Can the Matter Be Hall
Elijah Rock Hariston
Bird's Courting Song Harris
Rocka My Soul Harrison
Groundhog (W. Virginia Folk Song) Hart
Yuletide Hogue
I'm Troubled in Mind Hooper
Rise My Soul Hooper
Swing Low, Sweet Chariot Huntley
Jerusalem, My Happy Home Hutson
Ain't Got Time To Die Johnson
Trampin' Johnson
Polly, Wolly-Doodle Kubik
Casey Jones Lawton
Children of the Heavenly Father Liehmahn
Round-Up Lullaby (Cowboy Song) Lyman
Babylon is Fallen (White Spiritual) Malin
My Child is Gone Nightingale
Go Way From My Window Niles
I Wonder as I Wander (Appalachian Folk Song) Niles
Jack o'Diamonds (Negro Work Song) Niles
La Virgen Lava Panales (Trad. Spanish) Parker-Shaw
Old England Forty Years Ago Parker-Shaw
(Text from War of 1812)
171
Madeleine Paul
Battle Hymn of the Republic Ringwald
Yaqui Cradle Song Sandi
Barb'ra Allen (English Folk Song) Scott
Let My People Go Scott
Lowlands (Sea Chanty) Scott
Sourwood Mountain (American Folk Song) Scott
Adios, Catedral de Burgos Shaw
Aupres de ma Blonde (French Folk Song) Shaw-Parker
Mary Had a Baby Shaw
Set Down Servant (Negro Song) Shaw
Ya Viene La Vieja Shaw
The Deaf Woman*s Courtship Siegmeister
De Angel’s Are Watchin* Sowande
Wid a Sword in Ma Han* Sowande
Carol's Taylor
The Little Train Villa-Lobos-Lauridsen
The Humble Heart Winstead
Gute Nacht (Traditional) Woodworth
El Moi Du La Mare Catalonian Carol
172
APPENDIX C
INTERVIEW WITH ROGER WAGNER
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA AT LOS ANGELES
DECEMBER 19, I960
McEWEN First of all, I would like to get some idea concerning your
background. Where did you take your training?
WAGNER Let me break it down like this: I think I gave you a souvenir
program that will give you a pretty accurate biography. I
was the son of a musician. My father was a choral director
and an organist and I have been singing since the age of eight
or nine. I was a boy soprano in the choir and had a solo
quality of voice.
McEWEN Was this in a church activity?
WAGNER Yes, in church. I was practically b o m in a choir loft. My

father was a fine musician but he was not a great technician
on the organ. I remember I always resented his romantic
approach to organ music. However, he was of that period of
the twentieth century with Guilmant and Dubois. I remember
when I was ten or eleven years old I reacted very strongly to
this sentimental approach to music. I had a sense of style
already and also a sense of choral blend. I used to tell him
when I was ten or eleven years old that his tenor stuck out
too much. The tenor had a good voice and he always tried to
prove it on Sundays. I became a director of a choir here in
Hollywood at the age of twelve and a half.
McEWEN Choral director at twelve and a half?
WAGNER Yes, I directed a choir here on Sunday mornings at the St.

Ambrose Church at the age of twelve and a half.
McEWEN Were they children?
WAGNER Well, I had a junior choir and also I had some adults. I
remember I had an adult group and I always bawled the men out
because they could not read music. I remember very well,
right here on Fairfax.
173
McEWEN And you could read music?
WAGNER Oh yes! I -was taught to read music when I was four years old.
I went through the first two years of my elementary school in
France,, and in France you have solfeggio every day, whether
you are going to be a musician or not. You learn how to read
music because they feel that whether you are going to be a
musician or not you should have the knowledge of how to read
music and to be able to read at sight the simple things— at
least those of medium difficulty.
McEWEN Did they use "fixed do"?
WAGNER Always, we were taught "fixed do." "Moveable do" was not
used then. I still think that "fixed do" is the answer
because, more and more, "moveable do" is not useable. In
music that becomes atonal, you cannot find "do." I would say
that 50 per cent of all contemporary music we do cannot be
read by the "moveable do" system.
McEWEN Did you have any music reading instruction in this country?
WAGNER Oh, some, but you see I was an instrumentalist, because I

then took up the piano. I became fanatically interested in
organ and I had a piano made which had organ pedals on it.
A man made up this concoction— though it was not original
because they had them years ago— which made it possible for
me to practice the Bach fugues and contrapuntal music with
the pedals. I had to be extra careful because every pedal
had to be hit, while on the organ you can sort of slide. But
then this gave me an opportunity to really work on Bach, and
on that period of music, on the organ. So naturally my
knowledge of "solfege" was far superior to that of the
average singer who was not an instrumentalist. After my work
in Fairfax High School I went to Europe. I was seventeen and
a half years old then.
McEWEN Was Fairfax High School here in Los Angeles?
WAGNER Yes, here in Los Angeles. As a matter of fact, I did not

graduate from Fairfax. I did not finish my last year here
because my father decided that I should go to France— not to
learn anything, but to l e a m how to study. That was the way
he put it. He said that here in this country they are so
concerned about football that you end up, after four years
in college, working in a service station. There was a lot in
what he said, so I went to France and studied there. I
studied for two years and my studies were mostly in French
Literature. During the first two years of college work I
174
still had hopes of becoming a priest. All my life I had had

an urge to become a "man of the cloth." But my interest in
music was always foremost so I was confronted with deciding
whether to be dedicated to the ministry or dedicated to music.
I had to make a choice. Prior to going to Fairfax High
School, I had attended the seminary in Santa Barbara to
become a Franciscan. I thought it wasn't strict enough so I
went to Clerician Seminary in Compton where I had my Latin
and my Greek. I was the organist there. I used to spend a
lot of time practicing and they would tell me that I spent
too much time on music— though my studies and grades were
good. They wanted me to be more active in other things and
not to spend so much time on music. So when I left and went
to Fairfax High School with the intention of completing my
high school work, I had by then pretty much decided that
music was going to be my forte. Then I went to Europe, but
the urge was still there. I went to a college that was an
attach* of the Sorbonne, called the College of Montmorency,
which is about six miles from Paris. They have some of the
same teachers that the Sorbonne has and some of the same
courses. There, I was able to do some work with the famous
musicians. I was able to do some work with Marcel Dupre,
but not as much as I would have liked to because he was quite
expensive. I was able to dabble into different kinds of
music and to learn much about Gregorian chant and much about
early Renaissance music as well as Bach. There in Paris was
the greatest school of organists in the world. I mean right
in that city there were six or seven of the greatest organists
in the world who played the literature all the time. So it
was a great thing! Then I came back to the United States.
I
McEWEN That was after two years?
WAGNER That is right.
McEWEN How old were you then?
WAGNER I was then seventeen and a half. My father was terribly sick
in the hospital with cancer so I had to replace him as
organist at St. Brendan's for six months. He died and I went
back to France to complete my studies and I was drafted. When
I was drafted, I was still able to continue some of my work
while I was in the Army. One of my jobs was as a teacher to
warrant officers that wanted to become officers because I had
some educational background that they did not have. I was
also an organist in a Jewish synagogue. This was in
Thinonville which is about ten miles from the city of Metz.
I also got to play quite a few of the great organs and to
continue my work. When I was released from the Army, I
175
proceeded to study for another year in France.
McEWEN Was this the French Army into which you were drafted?
WAGNER Oh yes, you see once a Frenchman, always a Frenchman. My

father was a Frenchman and the French do not recognize any
other nationality. If you are the son of a Frenchman, even
if you are b o m in the States, you are drafted. It is quite
a strict thing. So I served in the 15th Regiment of
artillery and I learned very much. I got to do more work
than the average person because of my interest in music and
my ability in it. Then, I went to Paris after my release
and returned here in 1937* When I came back in 1937, I had
a gift for mimicry and for popular music. It was very
difficult at that time to make a living, and I was still
quite young. Let me see, I was twenty-one and a half,my
mother was a widow, and I had a younger brother, Jack. He
is now a very successful disc jockey. I went to night club
work where I did an act in which I imitated all types of
personalities at the piano. A man by the name of Boris
Morris heard me and took me to Paramount where he gave me a
short-term contract as a singer. There I appeared in a
picture called Zsa Zsa with an Italian star, Miranda. I was
unfortunately with a studio that never made me sing but made
me dance. So I was a dancer. It was then that I met Leo
Arnold who is still around here. He heard me and asked me
to come to M.G.M. as a singer. So I worked for M.G.M. for a
year where I was on first call as a singer with the Nelson
Eddy pictures. Since I was the only one who could read music
quickly, all the singers who took voice lessons would crowd
around me to get their notes at the recording sessions. It
was wonderful.
McEWEN Again, because you could read.
WAGNER That is right, and I didn't have the voice that they had.
That is, I had had no real, formal training. These were
people who could sing like Lawrence Tibbett, but they knew
only whether the notes went up or down. I was there for
quite a while until I got very fed up with this commercial
type of music. I really had a background for a very serious
type of music. So I went downtown one day with Richard Keys
Biggs, the organist, and as we walked by the church, I was
overwhelmed by the beauty of the church. He said, "You know,
they need an organist and choir master here so let’s go see
the Father." The Father was William Clark, and it was on
Thanksgiving, 1937. I had returned in April of that year.
I was still working at M.G.M. and the priest said, "Yes, I
would like to have someone here who could have a good choir."
176
So I took the job, which was twenty-three years ago. I got

together Mexican boys and built a fine boys' choir, and I
became sort of a scout leader and coach. We won city
championships in basketball. The first year that I was there
we won the grammar school championship among all Catholic
schools. In basketball the girls were runners-up in the
finals and lost in the finals by one point. I took boys on
vacations for a month during the summer. They were under
privileged kids, but very musical. We did a lot of recordings
for studios aside from what we did in the church. I built a
real good organization which I held for ten years, then the
parish moved out and it became an industrialized type of area
where there were no homes, so I had to get my boys from all
over. We then decided to just have a men's choir. I gave up
the boys' group as I could no longer afford to spend that
much time because I was getting only $150 a month for all of
these activities.
McEWEN This was your main source of income?
WAGNER Yes, that was all my income. Of course I had weddings and
funerals. I was also doing some research and doing post
graduate work again at U.C.L.A. and at U.S.C. I worked with
Max Krone and with Lucien Cailliet because I was vitally
interested in orchestration. I worked with A1 Salors for two
years, so that I did quite a bit of work in both of those
universities.
McEWEN This was graduate work in succession to your work in France?
WAGNER Yes, I had decided to go ahead and further my studies for a

degree. I was then teaching the Gregorian Chant and the
Renaissance music all over the country, at odd times of the
year whenever I could get axvay, for the Gregorian Institute in
Toledo, Ohio. They had workshops in Oregon and in many other
places. I did several of those things for them. Eugene
LaPierre was then Dean of Music at the University of Montreal
and he was extremely interested in the things I had done. He
asked me if I were interested in working on my doctorate at
the University of Montreal. I told him that it would be very
difficult for me because I had to make a living here. I had
two children and I couldn't get away that long just to study
on a doctorate. I said that if I got a doctorate, I would
get it at U.S.C. or some other place around here. He stated,
"Well, I am going to request an unusual thing. If you are
able to do all your work there in Southern California and
submit it to us in Montreal, in view of your background and
your transcripts, would you be willing to do your doctorate
in absentia from Montreal University?" It was not an
177
honorary; I did all the work. This is the way I got my

doctorate. The dissertation was on the works of Josquin Des
Pres. I had done a lot of research before this, you see,
and I had done a great deal of post-graduate work. They took
all this into consideration and granted me what I think one
of the rare things— a doctorate when all my work was in
absentia. This is the way I went through the scholastic part
of my life. Of course, I kept on studying and going to
different things and "hob-nobbing" around with all the choral
men interested in daring things, you know. I remember way
back when we used to have those meetings of the Choral
Directors’ Guild. Most of the men we knew were pretty
sedate, conservative, and untalented. I found the Choral
Directors’ Guild a very unprogressive thing and it did not
interest me at all. I knew, right then and there, that I
could direct a choir better in five minutes than they could.
I heard their repertoire and choruses in the churches. They
were big and heavy and there wasn't very much interest in it
at all. Therefore, I went my own way and just decided that
I would build a group. After that I became attached to the
City of Los Angeles. I took an examination in music with the
Bureau of Music which was just beginning under Mayor Bowren.
I got number one in the exam out of all the applicants. I
built thirty some choruses in the Los Angeles and surrounding
areas and at first I tried to conduct everything.
McEWEN You did all the rehearsing?
WAGNER I did all the things at first. Then I appointed a staff of

some twenty conductors and would interview these men and tell
them what we were trying to do to raise the standard of music.
We did an N.B.C. broadcast every year which gave me
opportunities. I became interested in orchestras and I did
a Beheimer Memorial and an all-Mozart program at the
Philharmonic. And of course I began to "get the ball rolling1
on repertoire. I believe seriously that repertoire is the
food of the musician. He grows with it as a body grows with
good food. If he doesn't do great repertoire, he ceases to
grow. I talked to these men in school, Doug, and they are
all good people. They are all potentially fine artists, but
they become terribly frustrated with the limits of talent
they have in the high school, for instance. Yet economically
they cannot do anything but teach there because that is their
only livelihood. Instead of saying, I will do the best I can
do with what I've got, they get so frustrated when they look
at people like myself who deal with people outside of school,
who have more talent, with better voices, and under better
conditions. Many of them forget that I went through the same
thing. And what I did, they can do if they have what it
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takes. Noone handed it to me on a silver platter. I just

decided I was going to make my own group and I started with
the Bureau of Music.
McEWEN Well, we are going to be interested now in what it takes.
WAGNER That is interesting. Well, you see, I became affiliated with

the Bureau of Music, and I got to know practically all these
youngsters in all of these schools who had come after school
to join in additional chorus activity. I noticed that in
each group there were two or three that were very talented.
The rest were mediocre. Oh, they sang, but there was no real
talent. For instance, I went to Dorsey and I had a girl
there by the name of M a m i McKatherine. She was a nice girl.
Her name is now M a m i Nixon. She had perfect pitch and was
a violinist in the Merenblum Orchestra. I heard several
others. I heard another boy called Dick Robie (Richard
Robinson) who is well known here.
McEWEN Oh yes, very well.
WAGNER He couldn't read music very well and now I imagine he can
out-read anybody in the business.
McEWEN He sings so much of Stravinsky's stuff now.
WAGNER Yes, well he is a superb musician. Much more so than a

singer. We got together a number of those people and I
created a madrigal group of about twelve voices and then went
to KFI and said that we needed an incentive. To get people
together once a week without an objective is deadly.
McEWEN Was KFI the NBC station here?
WAGNER Yes, the NBC station but this was a local broadcast. I asked
the public services to let us do a half hour of madrigals
each week for a year so that we could go through as much of
it as we could. We did get to do the broadcast for a half
hour each week in which I covered hundreds and hundreds of
madrigals by Bird, Wilbye, Morley, by John Dowland. You name
them! All the works of Edmund Fellowes, that great man who
wrote this masterly book on madrigals. So my knowledge in
that field was quite good. Then we had to give a flexibility
to my group, an ensemble feeling which was the nucleus of the
Chorale. I tried to stay away from dramatic music for a long
time. One of the little girls used to come to me— she was
twelve years old but had a tremendous talent— was a girl
named Marilyn Horn. She has just scored a great sensation in
Wozzeck and was called the woman of the year in music in the
179
Times yesterday. She was a girl that I really raised with

this idea in mind of gradually letting the voice grow and
letting the taste build into these kids of the best music.
She sang with us constantly for six years and she never
missed a rehearsal. We would use an old room in St. Joseph
near Main Street in Los Angeles where we had no heat and yet
they still came. We were not subsidized. I had to talk the
Father into letting me have the room since he had a convert
class there. He said that was more important than my people
singing and I told him that I thought it was a matter of
opinion. He let us have the place and so it was hqt choir
room. It was terribly cold and it was in the poor district
of town. But there we worked for two years without doing a
performance. We just worked and worked and worked.
McEWEN For two years?
WAGNER Yes, I did do a program once the first year, a thing in St.
Joseph's Church. Also, I did another thing at the City Hall
for all the City Fathers. They didn't understand it but they
thought it was very worthwhile. At these things came a lot
of people like Max Krone who were greatly interested. But
at this time I was building something that had no limitations
in color, race, or creed. You could be a Protestant,
Catholic, Jewish, or Atheist and I couldn't care less as long
as you could read music and you were interested and you had
some voice. I think I can make people sing even if they have
very little voice. In an ensemble, sometimes too much voice
can be a handicap rather than a help. I did try to get good
voices and people that were really talented and that is the
way we built the Chorale. After two years of work, I got a
call from Alfred Wallenstein, who stated that a man named
Peterson Greeley of the Examiner had said to him that he
thought we had the best choir in town. I told him that I
didn't know how he could have known that because I had made
only one or two appearances in the two years that I had
organized it. I said we weren't ready to do anything great,
and I also said that he was right, "there wasn't anything in
town that could touch us but it isn't anything in comparison
to what it will be." He said, "that is very refreshing,"
(the modesty). He wanted to come and hear it that night and
stated that he knew we had a rehearsal scheduled. I said,
"that is right, we rehearse at the Elks Club." (Because then
I was directing a men's group there, and in exchange for this
they let me use their facilities for pictures that we had
made of the Chorale and to rehearse.) He came with Mr.
William Hartshorn, Supervisor of Music for Los Angeles, and
was very impressed. He waited for me until midnight to
discuss two appearances with the Los Angeles Philhamonic.
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Then Franz Waxman asked me to do several things, like

Honegger's "King David" and "Joan at the Stake." We did
many things on the Los Angeles Music Festival including
Stravinsky's works. I worked with Stravinsky on his "Mass"
and did one of its first performances here. We also perfoimed
his "Les Noces." We worked with Stravinsky quite a lot. I
was interested in m o d e m music of Schoenberg and we did a lot
of that too. From there on it was just a matter of time
until Capitol Records came to me and asked me if we were
interested in making one record, the "Pope Marcellus Mass"
of Palestrina.
McEWEN Yes, I remember.
WAGNER It never set the world on fire commercially but it got

wonderful notices. I got a great letter of praise from Shaw
who heard it on Easter Sunday, and who said that it was the
greatest thing he had ever heard. It was a good recording.
The sound wasn't what it is today but it somehow caught fire.
Capitol wanted to build up the group and to sign me up to a
long tern contract which I've held ever since. The rest is
history from there on, tours, and the whole thing.
This should give you some idea of the background. Now
what makes a man do this? Well I will tell you, Doug. I am
a very competitive man, very competitive. I have been in
athletics all my life. I suppose one first starts to say
that you are trying to reach an objective because you want to
accomplish something. Then, it becomes little more than that.
It becomes a necessity because you know what you have to offer
and you cannot take "no" for an answer. You just have to go
on with it and you go through all kinds of obstacles but that
seems to be the most important thing in the world. To me the
Chorale was the most important thing. I planned my rehearsals
very carefully. I bought music that I could not afford to
buy. I did all sorts of crazy things on $150 to $175 a month
and I owed more money than I made. They took my car back but
I still bought music. I took the street car and the bus. I
always felt that it was a matter of perseverance with me, to
try not to make the same mistake twice. I made a lot of
mistakes, but the trial and error method is the only way to
learn. I don't care if you go to school until you are fifty.
McEWEN So long as you learn by it.
WA0JER As long as you learn. But some people just will not learn
because they are not made of that kind of stuff. Where
twenty or thirty people will start out in the world of music,
maybe one or two will be left. The rest are selling
insurance. They come to me with, the same story, that it
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isn't worth it. After all, they have their own life to lead.
My life without music would have meant very little. I had to
do it. I also feel that one attracts people by doing great
music. When I say great music, and you can rationalize this,
but I mean music of the masters that has been proven to be
good. Music that has form, logic, and that you can work and
work on and there just isn't enough time to get it perfect
enough. If you work a year on one piece like the B Minor,
you still feel wonderful about working on it.
McEWEN Yes, I understand.
WAGNER Then if you have the element of conviction, you are a first
class musician, and you know your metier, from year to year
you will attract more intelligent and discriminating people.
Then I had to think of course of the organizational factors,
and of the commercial factors. In order to survive you had
to be a good businessman. When I got these offers I was very
careful when I worked it out. I would always try to do good
things with very little compromise. I stuck it out and this
is the story. Here we are.
McEWEN Would you say that your choral ideas have been very largely
developed as a result of this trial and error method?
WAGNER Yes, I think that in every man's life, once you observe around
you what is being done, you basically have in mind a certain
choral ideal, a sound, which represents the certain sound that
you want for music. You watch people singing and you say to
yourself, "What is wrong with it? Why doesn't it sound the
way I want it to sound?" and then you get at the root of it.
Unfortunately, you go to many of these choral workshops where
most of the talk is about how to start a choir and how to
finish it. How to attack and how to release. They do trite
music and affective music and they try to do things that will
stun people. This to me is not choral art. We all have to
go through that in school at some period and the less we do,
the better off we are. I try to impress upon the high school
directors, particularly, not to compete with T.V. entertainers.
They are educators and they should do good music. At the
beginning, I listened to things that I thought were well done.
I heard the St. Olaf Choir. I was fascinated by that "owly"
sound— that lack of vibrato, but it just didn't suit me. I
thought it was amazing the discipline that he got from the
choir, and I was very impressed with the precision, and his
fine musicianship. I also heard the Waring Pennsylvanians
and I thought they did an awful lot at that time to instil
into conductors a feeling for technique, a tone syllable
which I thought was exaggerated but nevertheless had some
182
merit. I thought Robert Shaw had some good ideas. I know he

has affected my way of thinking at times. There were others
in colleges that did good work, but with all that I heard I
still knew there was something that was missing which I
thought I had. I still think I have, although we are very
bad judges of our own work.
McEWEN How much of this, if any of it, resulted from your earliest
work, your study in France, any of your post-graduate work,
that is, from the time you were in the classroom.
WAGNER Well, I would say that probably the major factor, Doug, in
whatever success I have had has been the hard times that I
experienced as a student. Not so much what I learned in
music, but the moments when I almost starved, when I would go
days without food. I had to do menial jobs to earn my way.
This gave me a sense of responsibility, and a desire never to
be in that position again. The only way that I could find,
not only for economic security, but in order to get to a
point where I was in a position to do what I wanted to do,
was to make a success of that which I loved most. I believe
that it is a matter of character, really, because knowledge
is easy but character is not. How many people will work into
the night and do the menial things that I had to do? I had
to work with poor underprivileged and unfortunate kids and
still keep on toward a higher goal and not get lost in the
thing. When I quit high school work, I did it simply because
I knew that I had reached the point where I was going to
either remain as a school teacher or I was going to make the
most out of my talents with the finest possible available
material. I had to quit and economically it was a difficult
thing to do. I had no money and so I had to work twice as
hard in order to survive. You know we accomplish a lot out
of survival. Most of our greatest composers wrote their best
pieces for money. They wrote them because they had to make a
living. I would work terribly hard so that my choir would be
successful. While I was working out all of these problems it
was getting better all the time, and my economic position was
getting better at the same time. I could afford better music
to do better things. I could hire better singers, and I
could rehearse in better places. I could be more particular
because I could afford better things that I couldn't afford
before. I would say that the character angle and the
difficult times I had in Europe which I couldn't begin to
enumerate, were probably the greatest determining factors in
any success that I have had. As far as my music was
concerned, it definitely was affected by it. I had my roots
in chant. This is the greatest thing. From the chant stems
almost everything that I have done. I learned the modes; I
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learned the simplicity of unison singing; I learned those

beautiful melodies that have gone all through the ages. I
learned all these things that have been an inspiration to
the great composers and I had my roots in the real classics.
I worked in a monastery and even directed and sang the chant.
Then, I had Bach on the organ. The roots that I have found
were those of the chant, of polyphony, Palestrina, Vittoria,
and that whole school. I found that the complexity of the
pre-Bach period led up to the great Bach, and his works on
the organ gave me a facet of musicianship I think sometimes
choral men sadly lack. Then, the opportunity to develop
organizations, and learn how to get people together, how to
work out problems with untrained singers, all of these things
helped. The opportunity to direct orchestras which I had,
made it possible for me to conduct programs with the Los
Angeles Philharmonic. I feel it is just as easy to direct an
orchestra as it is to direct a choral group, easier as a
matter of fact.
McEWEN Now, related to the music that we are talking about, do you
have any kind of philosophy as to the nature of music or its
purpose,particularly choral music, of course, but not
necessarily limited to choral?
WAGNER Well, Doug, the way I feel naturally we come to a certain

philosophy after twenty-five years. I am basically a
performer, you understand, so that I realize how terribly
important technique is. I worked on technique with my choir
over and over until I felt that if I didn't make it clear by
then, that they just were not capable. I always try, also,
to blame myself if anything is bad, because the director is
truly responsible for everything; for the selection of the
singers, for the selection of the music, for the way they are
trained, and for his ability to make them be present on time.
Now, my philosophy. I would say it is tone production. You
know, for you attended one of my courses, that I am bitterly
against any methodized school of thought on tone production,
for the simple reason that all the schools have a certain
tone quality which they apply to all sorts of music. To me
the greatest achievement of choral art is when you can make
the tone fit the music and the message. I certainly would
never let my Chorale sing with the same tone doing a Bach
work that they did on a Palestrina work. The writings are
different, the energies are different. The long lines of
Palestrina need a different type of sound. The only reason
I do not have a vibrato in the voices on Palestrina is not
because it is something I made up or is traditional, but it
is simply because it is a long line which must be preserved.
There must be no jagged edges in the sound. It is like a
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great Gothic arch which must be uninterrupted in its flow.

With Bach music you have small energies. There, the tone
must be different. You must have a little vibrato to set on
fire these little energies. The technical approach there is
different, too. It cannot be too legato or too staccato.
It must be musical at all times. It must be clear and
convincing. All of these things must be in the directing
and the director must know the music well. He must be gifted
enough so that he can bring all this out of his singers. My
philosophy is that all music represents an expression of
something. Therefore, we must fit our tone to the message
we are bringing. The degree of greatness in the conductor
is directly related to how deeply he can go into the music,
how greatly he can influence his people to do it better than
they are really able under normal conditions. So that he
leaves no stone unturned and tries to follow faithfully the
wishes of the composer if the composer is a great composer,
and if he finds that the composer has reason for what he says.
I certainly do disagree with some composers and I do not
hesitate to say that there have been many times when I have
gone against a composer's wishes because I thought I could do
better some other way. Most composers who have heard us do
their works have agreed 100 per cent that it was better,
because they are not performers.
McEWEN Yes, that has been a very interesting thing.
WAGNER George Antheil wrote "Eight Fragments from Shelley" for us

and I worked and worked on it. I said to George, "We are
ready now, so why don't you come and hear it." I had changed
dynamics. He came and he said it was much better this way.
"You know," George said, "we are the worst judges at times in
what should be done, and this is the one time when I feel
that my music is better than I thought it was."
McEWEN You described something about tone for Renaissance, for

chant, as well as for Bach. Now, how would you characterize
something of nineteenth century, of romanticism?
WAGNER Well, you see, in romanticism, the voice must have in it the
quality of the romance. In other words, if it is romantic
music, naturally a straight tone, which is the most objective
sound known, is as far from romanticism as anything I know.
The element of romantic music is not in the contrapuntal
writing but rather in the often used word, and often misused
word, "warmth," which is sentiment, and sometimes sentimental
ity, unfortunately, but nevertheless, it must have the
elements of the romantic. We must then, when we hear those
voices, associate it with the romantic idiom. It is hard to
185
describe tone. When a person speaks "romantically" he does

not speak like a preacher; it has to have real drama behind
it. If I had a Conservatory of Choral Music which I hope to
get eventually, a Conservatory dedicated to Choral Music
(probably the only one of its kind anywhere in the country)
with the greatest people on its staff, I would make a re
quirement of at least six months of drama training for all
singers.
McEWEN Drama training?
WAGNER Dramatics. Singers are stones. They listen to themselves

sing and they think people are interested in their voices;
they are not. People are interested in what they have to
say. We must not be conscious of the voice because when we
hear a great artist we are not conscious of his technique,
we are only conscious of what he is saying and the same should
be true of ensemble singing.
McEWEN Were you exposed to any of these concepts when you were a
student or have you grown into this thinking independently?
WAGNER I have found that there was a terrible lack of this

consciousness at the time that I was beginning. First of all,
most men who were in music were.functionaries, almost like
civil service. They were doing this job as a means of
livelihood. They wanted to do it well but they were not
going to kill themselves, they were not going to be heroic.
You have school teachers who are heroic; they are in the
minority— those who will stay after school to coach a few of
the less-gifted pupils, who will spend their weekends
studying or doing research rather than going to Palm Springs
and basking in the sun. I was in that category who ate and
lived music— morning, noon, and night. I was searching. I
think I will always search. I believe I am getting closer
to what I really feel is good. But, I think that with the
human angle, no matter how much you are convinced of some
thing, if you do not have the adequate tools, you just cannot
do it. Sometimes good tools are not available. But on the
other hand I found that there were very few who were really
that interested— that dedicated. It became sort of a
fanatical thing— that we must find the truth behind this.
We must restore the love of ensemble music which has existed
in Europe for many years. In this country we are more
orchestra conscious than choral conscious. In England they
are much more choral conscious, even though their technique
is not as good as ours. I found out more about what not to
do than what to do in my discussions with people.
186
McEWEN How did you decide what not to do? You implied that by
discussing this with people they would make a comment or
suggestion and you would say to yourself secretly, "this is
not so; this is not good!"
WAGNER I have been asked to judge, to be an adjudicator at a

festival and I always found that they didn't know how to sing
an interval in tune. The old story, the major third was
always low and the fifth too high. Choral directors did not
listen, and became so used to hearing such flat singing that
they came to accept it. It is like being a band director;
directing the first semester of band is a good way of going
deaf. You don't know whether they are in tune or not after
a while. If you play a piano that is out of tune, you won't
know whether the piano is in tune or not after a while. A
lot of these directors did not listen and were much the same
way. When I got through making these remarks on paper they
would come to me almost in tears and say, "Do you mean we
sang that much out of tune?" I would say "consistently out
of tune" and the reason they are singing out of tune is that
they don't know the difference. Of course, I didn't make
many friends. I think people considered me brashly frank but
I also am my own worst critic and I don't mind. I was not
diplomatic at all and I did not want to be diplomatic. I
felt that people who wanted the truth should have thanked me,
and a few of them did. Out of my group there stemmed some
awfully good choral men who are honest with themselves.
I resent after a poor concert anyone telling the director,
"You did very well!" when they didn't do well at all.
People have flocked to me because they realize that I am
honest with myself. I think we always have to strive for
perfection. We have searched for years and years and we are
not satisfied with mediocrity. I think that honesty is one
of the main qualities that is needed.
McEWEN These ideas that you have certainly must find their way into
your conducting as well as your selection of literature. And
the interpretation of the music must stem from your philosoply
of music's function and what you consider to be central in
it and, of course, in its ultimate delivery as you conduct.
WAGNER Yes, I feel that a man owes it not only to himself but tothe
people who are working for him, as well as audiences, to do
the very finest music. A choral director who goes through
life without doing the B Minor Mass, conducting the orchestra,
the chorus, and soloists, the "Missa Solemnis," the St.
Matthew Passion, the St. John Passion, and other works, is
just not in the "big leagues." He is not developing, he
cannot have the vision nor the experience to cope with real
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music unless he does these things. And believe me, it is not

easy to do these things because it is difficult music. It is
taxing musicj it is music that needs analysis. It is music
that you need to get into. I don't mean a musicological
analysis always. I don't go for the 4 / 4 / 8 all the time.
We do a lot of things by musical intuition and when I sit
down at the piano and play the "Missa Solemnis" through, I
analyze the "Kyrie." I see the "ABA" form. I don't have to
be told this. After you have done three or four hundred
major works you certainly begin to appreciate form without
having to spell it out always. Too many times they work at
it like a stamp collection and they go through these formulas
as in an algebraic equation. It no longer becomes a part of
the performance. However, those people that teach it say it
does. There is a limit to that. Our greatest problem is
music intuition and if you do not have it then you are not
going to make it, you are lacking this very quality.
McEWEN Can this be developed?
WAGNER Yes, it can be developed. Everything can be developed if you

have the seed there. Also, some people mature more slowly
than others. I, for one, matured very slowly. It wasn't
until I was thirty-five that I began to see the dawn. I
worked slowly at it. Maybe because of my methods, I don't
know. It was just that I grew slowly and I am very grateful
that I did because I was really more prepared when I came to
do the great works. I was probably better prepared than
others when they first attempted them. I have done six
performances of the B Minor, seven with full orchestra. I
have done several performances of the Missa Solemnis. Also
I have done several of the St. Matthew, quite a few of the
St. John's. I have done Handel's works galore. But you know
I have only done the "Messiah" once.
McEWEN Once?
WAGNER Only once, because everybody else does the "Messiah."

Instead I had done things like the "Saul" and "Israel in
Egypt" and "Acis and Galatea," which most choral directors
do not do. I am always looking for a challenge. You must
look for this challenge, things that have not been done. You
may find something you have never heard which will help you
to develop. There is more challenge in doing something that
you don't sing in the bath tub all the time.
Now, how could the directors, even though the Messiah is
a great piece of music, how can they be so unoriginal as to
do it three hundred and forty performances? As they are done
here in Los Angeles in December. Why couldn't they do "Judas
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Maccabaeus"? Why, because, it is not of the season. But

there are other things that are of the season -which could be
done. Is the Messiah a religion? If you are a musician you
must go after new materials. You cannot keep doing what the
boy next door does. I know conductors that have not done
one thing they have not heard at concerts.
McEWEN Now, this brings us to a very good point. I think we should

discuss what kind of a measure or what kind of device,
intellectual, or what have you, do you have for making this
selection of music? What constitutes good choral literature
by your musical measure?
WAGNER I think that we can say regarding good choral literature that
first of all you have to think about the composer. You know
when you see Bach that ninety-nine chances out of a hundred
what he wrote was pretty good. Now, if you see Beethoven,
you know that he was the worst choral writer in the world,
but one who had more to say than anybody. You know that when
you get into his music it is going to be the product of an
insane man but what comes out after you have worked it out
is going to be the most glorious.
McEWEN Now, what you say implies a knowledge of composers?
WAGNER Yes, we must get to know composers. We must know their

works. For instance, the Renaissance Period and the work of
Palestrina. The vocal writing is astounding in its logic,
in its naturalness.
McEWEN Logic?
WAGNER Yes, so that after a while if you get good musicians in your
group who have done many of the works of Palestrina, they can
sight read it at a performance almost with dynamics. They
can read it just by watching the conductor, the intervals and
the style of writing are so well known to them. Take
Vittoria, for instance— there is nothing in the world in
vocal writing that is as grateful and that is as beautifully
written as this. What it has to say is mystical and profound
and wonderful in its simplicity. You also learn by doing
contemporary music. We did things by Samuel Barber, for
instance, we did "Reincarnations." I think most of it is
terrible choral writing, but nevertheless, it has a message
of its own. It is awkward to sing, like most contemporary
choral music, because they have lost the real gift of writing
for voices. Everything is instrumental and has been since
Bach.
189
McEWEN Wasn't that one of Beethoven's troubles as far as choral

music is concerned? Didn't he like to write instrumentally—
and also Bach?
WAGNER Yes, but nevertheless, with Bach there is so much to say that
you have to put up with it. It is up to you to make the
singers sing that way. Singers can be made to sing well
instrumentally if you have the technique to make them do so.
It is difficult, but it is possible. Get to know your
composers and look into repertoire. Look to see if the music
has a message to say, and if it is written in such a way that
it will be a great piece of art after you have worked it out.
You can see this by the way it is written, that it has form,
that it has meaning, that the text is not banal, that the
music is not banal, that it doesn't stray from here to there,
but that it has direction. I believe that this is the way
you select music. I was so critical in my adjudications of
the type of terrible music they select for these high schools.
These conductors who go to some of these workshops. We
cannot say that they have not done something for choral music;
that would be unfair. I think that they have done something.
They try to help these people by giving them a knowledge of
blend, as though you always have to have blend. Can you see
me directing the Verdi Requiem with the Philharmonic and the
Chorale and saying that in the "Dies Irae" the blend isn't
good? Who cares about the blend] It's the drama] There
are moments in music when the blend is a terribly important
thing, but some choral directors think that everything must
sound like a barber shop group. That shows they are
absolutely lacking in imagination. They are not getting to
the depths of music, the drama in the music. And these are
the things which we must emphasize, the superficiality of
most people. They are not getting below the surface.
McEWEN What are your best sources for literature? We know what we
are looking for. Let us say we have some criteria in mind.
Now, where are our best chances? When you are really looking
for material, what do you do?
WAGNER Well, Doug, all you have to do is go up to my library over

here where I have some 75 Bach Cantatas in quantities. All
you have to do is look. I have something like 100 Masses by
the Renaissance composers. I have maybe 200 Motets. A man
could spend the rest of his life just doing Renaissance music.
Personally, I would do Renaissance and Bach for the rest of
my life and be a very satisfied man except that I feel that
it limits one to only do that period of music. For instance,
what could be more remote than a Palestrina Mass and the
Berlioz "Damnation of Faust"? Yet, each one is a world of
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its own. The excitement of the "Damnation"— the excitement

that lies in this music! Here is a composer that was so
unorthodox, and yet he was a great genius. Everything he
writes is not great, to my own way of thinking, because
sometimes his orchestrations lack a certain fullness, where
they are sparse, but he had the gift of color and imagination.
The same with the Verdi "Requiem." I remember twenty years
ago I was on a Renaissance "kick" where all music, the Alpha
and Omega of music, was Renaissance, because it was so perfect
in its writing. I criticized the Verdi "Requiem" terribly,
but today I see it's a great piece. It's a great, great
piece of music. People say it's operatic. Naturally it's
operatic. Wno wrote it? An opera composer. But what form,
what logic, what drama, what mastery in the way he writes
this thing! This "Dies Irae" is like the heavens and the
earth coming out and the fire coming out of the earth and a
great judge standing there; the way the voices wail and come
out. And yet, almost a Gregorian approach to the "Agnus
Dei." This music is not stupid. Verdi was not only steeped
in spirit, he was a great composer and at times a mystical
composer. The "Agnus Dei" is almost like a Gregorian chant
and the "Liberans" is a chant.
McEWEN Even in Berlioz where he takes that half step on and on.
WAGNER You mean in the Damnation?
McEWEN WTell, I was thinking of his Requiem in that section where the
girls simply sing a half step.
WAGNER Chromaticism. Well now, here's an example. Now the Berlioz

"Requiem" is not a great masterpiece all throughout. He was
a very inconsistent composer but it's very worth while doing.
I find a trombone solo very ludicrous. But again, and this
is my taste, Wien I compare it to the B Minor, Wien I compare
it even with the Verdi "Requiem," I think the Verdi "Requiem"
is a great piece, for what it says. And the "Requiem" of
Mozart (which is mostly Slissmeyer)— there are great moments
in that. The "Benedictus" for solo voices and the orchestra
is something of sheer beauty.
McEWEN Would it be fair to say, then, about this literature choice,

and about sources, that this choice coupled to the search for
literature might stem from a knowledge of the composers and
styles much more importantly than where to look or to say,
"this is my source," or to say, "these people are the best,"
or "I always write to so and so when I want literature"?
You look everywhere with this in mind?
191
WAGNER Of course, Doug, you know that there are composers, no matter
what they write, it is going to be bad. So why keep on?
They just don't think right. Once in a while, with research,
you will come upon some things that are wonderful that are by
people you don't know too much of. I know some musicologists
who think "Belshazzar's Feast" of William Walton is a
terrible piece. I happen to think it is a very exciting
piece for what it has to say. It is a terribly technical
piece, but it has excitement of rhythms, it stems from
American jazz. It is sincere in its expression and it is
written by a first-class craftsman. I will do "Belshazzar"
once in a while out of sheer excitement.
McEWEN How can we develop these criteria for determination among

students— among undergraduates— who are going to go out and
do all these things and who will have to wade through all of
these things from all manner of publishers?
WAGNER Well, we should first impress upon the students that all
publishing houses are out to make money and, therefore, they
are anxious to get new materials out. That much of the
tastes, unfortunately, are developed in the students
inadvertently, because of the commercial aspects of music.
Did you know that 80-90 per cent of the music we hear is
designed for commercial profit rather than for art? And the
taste of our young people is developed along these lines.
Now, you have gone through the Saturday afternoon thing when
you go to an Octavo place and go through 500 pieces of music
and you come out with one, maybe two, you think will be O.K.
Now this is a sad state of affairs, isn't it? Every Tom,
Dick, and Harry wants to write an arrangement. They don't
know how to write one and they don't have anything to say.
So why do choral directors waste their time? Why don't they
first go through the mill of things that have proven to be
great and then go through the challenge of doing contemporary
music that, to their judgment, needs to be done? But stay
away from these pathetic, morose anthems that go on for ever
and for ever and that have nothing to say? When they have
385 Chorales by Bach that are twice as good as anything
they've seen.
McEWEN How important is the text?
WAGNER It all depends, Doug. The text is very important, but the
understanding of the words is not always that important. I
mean by this, for instance, sections of the B Minor Mass.
In the "Crucifixus" it is established, once you have heard
the word "crucifixus," that the section means "and he was
crucified for us." Whether you understand that every voice
192
should say "crucifixus" or not, is not important. Whereas

when you are dependent upon a piece of music to tell you the
story, rather than to set the mood, then the words are
important. But too many people expect to hear words out of
contrapuntal music. When you have a four-part writing where
the soprano says "A," the altos say "Ah," the tenors say "E,"
and the basses say "0," how can you understand that kind?
What is interesting about the piece is that you set a mood
and then you are interested in the writing.
McEWEN The text should be consistent with the mood of the music?
And vice versa?
WAGNER Exactly. This is typical of Madrigal school, the voices come

in "Fa la la la la." "Fa la la" means to express joy. I
think in a choir there is no reason why you shouldn't under
stand the words because the voices move together. But in
other kinds of music, the mood is much more Important.
McEWEN Now you have selected the piece of music and you have
determined in your own mind that it is worthwhile. What do
you do to make the most effective use of that rehearsal with
this piece of literature?
WAGNER Most conductors that I speak to— I ask them if they prepare
their rehearsal. Nine out of ten of them say, "I would like
to, but I don't have time, and first of all I am brighter
than anyone in my choir so that by the time they learn I'll
learn it." Now if I'm doing a very simple piece of music,
which is almost self-explanatory, then, of course, I just hare
to glance at it once or twice and I know the problems that are
there. But if I do a major work, I sit down at the piano and
I go over it thoroughly. I try to analyze in my own way what
it says, prepare what I have to bring out— the technical
difficulties involved. I will have to work on technical
passages. Many times I will have to use foreign syllables to
be able to bring out the clarity and impress my choir with
the contents of the music. Now I don't believe in talking
too much at rehearsal. That's always a danger with people
who are extroverts, and some people talk in rehearsal too
much, and sing. But there are certain moments when talking
is very valuable, but what you have to say must be important,
the choir must listen to it, and it must add to what you are
doing. Even in the middle of a rehearsal, a sense of humor
is very important. After I have prepared my work here, and
I feel that my choir has given an awful lot, I don't "time"
when I am going to stop to say something, but I will try to
bring out some interesting thing pertinent to what we are
doing. The first time I always, for them, sing without
193
stopping, I don't care if they make mistakes or not, but

they must go through it. I would feel terribly neglectful of
my responsibility if I stopped them after four bars, unless
they disintegrated completely. It's always a challenge
for them to negotiate the notes the first time. I don't
expect them to sing a thing of difficulty the first time
without a mistake. But I know that every time we do some
thing like this they get better and better, because they are
acquainted now with how they must look forward to the notes
and rhythmical idioms are a little more familiar to themfrom
the past works. I am more particular the second time andthe
more I go over it the more I go into detail. Then I stress
the values, right now! Now the sixteenths are not detached
enough. The violins are going to bow this with separate
bows so it must be much more detached. You hear it, for
example, in the Fugue of the "Missa Solemnis," where every
voice sings right with the phrasing of the instruments.
There you must have a knowledge of orchestral and choral
works to be able to do this because the average A Cappella
choir director doesn't stress this. Nothing is more inef
fective than an A Cappella choir singing with orchestra on
an accompanied work, because the technique is so much more
different. And also I then am ready to know the technical
difficulties. I sometimes use the piece for vocalises rather
than waste fifteen to twenty minutes vocalizing. I use
different vowel sounds. On a fugue I use "la" when I feel
they need more brilliance, or "le," "lo" when I want more
darkness or more flexibility. "Mo, mo, mo, mo," to bring
out the resonance in the voice. "M's" and "n's," liquescents
we call them, to bring out resonance because most singers
pronounce a very dry "m" and "n" with no resonance to it.
I try to show the value of the piece, the excitement we must
find in it, the clarity that must be brought out, and the
importance of what it has to say, and from there I take it
over.
McEWEN That's very good. Do you feel that your chorus needs to
understand completely what's in your mind? Do they have to
have any kind of insight in order to deliver successfully?
WAGNER It's always good to give them an insight. It all depends on

how interested they are and I'll tell you something— there
are always some interested people. I try to make them
interested if they are not. I do not believe in giving away
everything that I know, not because I don't want to, but
because I don't have the time in rehearsal to do it. But
I do feel that there are certain important things that must
be stressed with them. But I don't tell them one tenth of
the things that I find in the music, because then I would be
194
a lecturer.
McEWEN But would you feel that it would be incorrect to say that
technical accuracy is sufficient?
WAGNER It can be, I suppose. It can be. I mean if a choir is

beautifully rehearsed technically and then the director has
a great knowledge of the score, and the ability to inspire,
certainly he can come out with a wonderful performance.
Actually if you ask the average singer, "How does this piece
go?" if it's an alto, she will sing the alto part, and if
it's a bass, he will sing the bass part.
McEWEN How much personal identification with the music is necessary

for a collegiate organization?
WAGNER Don't forget that most young people will only love the music
as much as the director loves it. I could take a piece by
"Joe Blow," and if it had anything in it which I felt had
merit, then I could build that piece up until they would die
for it. But we must not forget that most of these singers
do not have the background that we do and it is not up to us
to tell them everything that's in the music; they should be
able to discover it for themselves.
McEWEN But this reflection of the conductor's point of view on this

thing and his own enthusiasm for it becomes the expression of
the group?
WAGNER Yes. I am sure this is not original, but I think that most
serious choral directors don't like to do music they have to
apologize for. I try to stay away from that. Once in a
while I run into a situation where we are obliged to do
something I don't feel is truly great, but I try to make it
second great. I try to find the very best in it and many
times— for instance, Goldberg, in his review said, "The
piece is not great, but Wagner directed it as if it were."
Which makes me feel happy because why am I wasting my time
if it is not good? But I have to give it a "go" and see if
there is something in it. There must be something in this
music which is good.
McEWEN We have been talking about the group here, and this is a
logical time to ask what do you look for? What vocal
elements do you look for in selecting your singers?
WAGNER All right. In my girls I try to find voices that will

integrate easily.
195
McEWEN What makes them integrate?
WAGNER Let me see if we can pin this down. A voice that is pure in
quality, that has flexibility, that doesn't have a distortion
of over-nasal quality or guttural quality, or those elements
in vocal production which do not absorb easily in a section.
After you have had choruses for a long time, you know pretty
well the types of voices that blend (if you will excuse the
expression) because at times you have to think of that too.
One of the joys of an ensemble, for the most part, is to hear
the choir sing without hearing solo voices protrude. You
want them with vitality, but a vitality where they are able
to restrain it. Now, some of the best voices I have heard,
supposedly best, were voices that I would never take in my
choir. They have a vibrato that vibrates low or vibrates
high. As a soloist they can get away with it because a
soloist needs some of that.
McEWEN Would you consider a soloist with an excess in any of these

directions to be a really fine voice?
WAGNER No, I wouldn't think an excess of any of these makes anyone

good. But one must admit that when a soloist sings he must
use more vibrato than the ensemble because there he has no
problem to blend his voice with another voice. He is a solo
instrument and he is on his own. In back of him there will
be a string accompaniment, or whatever accompaniment, but he
points his voice out as a soloist and therefore doesn't have
the problem of matching, always carefully, with the other
voices.
McEWEN You think this matching is a pretty significant thing?
WAGNER Yes, in the early stages particularly. For instance, I have

my people in quartets, always. On tour we rehearse in six
or seven quartets depending on how many voices I have. I do
it, too, with the A Capella group as much as I can, but there
they are on their own. They have to listen more carefully.
I think it is a mental approach with a lot of them. You have
people who are just not ensemble people. I know some voices
— I had a boy, and to get him to blend in a section was like
tearing your hair out. He was always saying that he could
sing a high "C,n but I rarely-heard him sing one. He would
always stick out in a section and he would distract me from
interpretation because I would always have to worry about
whether he was going to come out too much. But you see, he
didn't have the "ensemble love." Some people just don't
like to sing ensemble. Now others would die for it. There
is a certain humility, a certain desire to make your voice
196
part of a group, which some people just don't have. I think

it is a mental approach.
McEWEN Now how about your men?
WAGNER In the men's section your problems of blend are not as great
as in the extremes, except for the high tenor section. You
can get away with voices in the lows, in the basses, which
are perhaps less blending than in the extreme top because
individual quality is not heard so much and it assimilates
much more easily in the lower register. I try to find tenors
who can sing with a head tone as much as a fundamental tone.
The ideal is to get those boys with the real brilliant tops
who can still go into that beautiful— call it falsetto, or
anything you want— but rarely do I have them sing legitimately
up in the top register because the tenors just will not blend
unless it is a dramatic thing where they need to sing full
voice, as in the "Triumphal March" from "Aida" or something
where you really need voices, but for the average work in the
Renaissance music, they never sing full voice, never.
McEWEN Do you make any type of specific vocal suggestion that

affects the tone of your group?
WAGNER Oh yesl I work with them on tone quality a lot. For

instance, I vocalize my tenors and altos clear up to E flat
above high C, in the falsetto, so that we can integrate the
sound of the altos and the tenors together as one. In the
Monteverdi "Magnificat," here at the Philharmonic Thursday
night, you'll hear it. They sing high B flats. It is not a
real, full, legitimate sound, but it is a strange and
marvelous sound. You can't tell whether it is a woman or a
man singing. The best falsettos are from the lowest voices
and my basses and baritones can sing a higher falsetto than
my tenors because they have to go into the falsetto earlier,
whereas the tenors carry up the legitimate sound. You should
stay away from all voices that have difficulty in singing
that kind of sound.
McEWEN Have trouble with the head tones?
WAGNER That's right. Those are the worst.
McEWEN Are you interested in an especially broad range, for your

U.C.L.A. singers, for instance?
WAGNER Always. Of course if you have a broad range then it helps

enormously. There, of course, you have a lack of the lowest
voices and the highest voices. It is rare to find good
197
tenors in college. You have to sort of fabricate them by

nursing them along and not attempting music which is too
dramatic because they just don't have it.
McEWEN How much of a requirement, if any, do you make of music

reading?
WAGNER That's the first requirement. If a person knows the

vocabulary of music, you can cover a lot of ground. It
continues to be interesting when you don't have to "woodshed”
so much and teach people intervals. They have more vocal
security because they are not looking for their interval and
they have a musical consciousness which is, to me, a more
primary requisite than the vocal.
McEWEN Do you find that you have any problem at U.C.L.A. with a
substantial number being inadequate from that point of view?
WAGNER Of course. It seems strange to say this, but it is true. I

think that most people you talk to will agree that the best
singers are usually the worst musicians. I humorously quip
about the empty head furnishing the resonance. It is because
they are conscious of the vocalism more than they are of the
music. It is inevitable, when I audition people, that if
they read like crazy they have no voice. If they are good
singers they miss notes all over the place. They are always
thinking of production. I think maybe it is like most
beautiful women who are dumb because they are conscious of
their beauty. They think their beauty is sufficient unto all
things. I think good voices think this is the alpha and the
omega and that's it. So long as they have a good voice they
don't need to stress anything else and they have neglected
that part of their education.
McEWEN Have they neglected it or where do you think the

responsibility lies?
WAGNER Doug, look, I have been on a twenty-five year crusade about

teaching solfege. Everywhere I go they say, "Oh, yes, we must
stress this," but they don't. They have night classes here
at U.C.L.A. and I attended one of these "funny" classes where
people went to learn to read music. They spent five minutes
reading solfege and they spent the rest of the hour singing
arias from Victor Herbert. In our system there is not enough
stress on solfege. There just isn't enough. You cannot give
too much solfege.
McEWEN What do you consider to be a minimum requirement, if there

is one ?
198
WAGNER Well, I'll tell you something. We should have solfege in

grammar school, starting with the second grade. We should
teach kids how to read notes, at least so that they know if
it goes up or down, with at least two half-hour periods a
week— an hour a week. And in high school there should be
two 45-minute periods at least a week.
McEWEN For everybody?
WAGNER For everybody, whether tone deaf or not. They should teach
them notes. This should be a requirement. They have it in
Europe. In college we should have two hours a week of
solfege. They should take music and not go through it twice,
because people depend upon their ear so much. When they have
a good ear, this seems to be an apology for not reading. You
know that. I have auditioned thousands of singers and when
I ask them if they read music, they say, "Not very well, but
I have a good ear." You never hear a musician who can read
say, "I have a good ear." That's understood. The fact that
they can negotiate a fifth at sight or a fourth means they
have a good ear plus knowing music. Solfege must be stressed.
How can you make singers musicians when 90 per cent of all
vocal teachers— I use that as a criterion— cannot read music
any better than the student? They think they are physical
education teachers. They say, "Now I'm not going to teach
you music, I'm going to teach you how to produce." You
can't teach voice well unless it is hand in hand with music
and interpretation. That's part of it. It has to do with
musical values. It's not like doing setting-up exercises.
There is a certain amount of physical element in it, of
development, but that goes hand in hand with music. I
studied voice with a teacher who played the worst piano I've
ever heard; she plunked wrong chords. How could I sing well
when I heard these false harmonies? She couldn't negotiate
the notes. She just dropped her jaw and said, "Sing AAaaah,"
and this was the answer. Now maybe she knew how to give me
B flat but to me this is bad.
McEWEN Is it your observation that this deficiency is pretty wide

spread?
WAGNER Yes, Doug. It's very wide spread. Musicianship is not

stressed enough. It's not stressed enough in our schools.
Of course, it all stems, too, from those colleges which
approach music as stamp collectors approach a stamp
collection. Musicologists are no longer interested in
hearing music. They look at it as a sort of professional
hobby in which they are more interested in the historical
significance of something than in the actual music.
199
McEWEN What musical implications do you think a strong solfeggio

program in the public schools and in the teacher training
institutions would have in our country?
WAGNER First of all, they could cover ten times more ground in ten
times less time. They could do music they have never done
before because they have more time to devote to difficult and
good music. They do not have to become impatient and bitter
about their work because the first time through their kids
could give a pretty honorable reading of what they have to
do. Everybody would have more interest because they do not
go through the drudgery of being taught by rote. All of this
would happen. In other words, there is no question about it.
We have "goofed" all along the line and I have preached this
from the coast of California to New York; from Florida to
Canada. I tell them, they nod their heads, and very few of
them do something about it. It was so bad that five years
ago I had a girl that we call Sally Terry who is a pretty
well-known artist and an excellent musician and has a
wonderful scholastic background. We started three and four
solfege classes at night in my studio where we had as many
as fifty and sixty people in the class. I have some of the
biggest stars today who came to me to audition, like Harve
Presnel, who were bad readers and I said, "If your name was
Caruso, I wouldn't use you. Who's got this much time to
devote to teaching you your notes? Would you ever think of
going to school and having to be taught every word by rote?"
I said it is the same thing if you want to be a professional
musician. You're just going to have to know something about
music. Now mind you, I don't say that sight reading is a
criterion of artistry, but it is a means by which we are able
to do many, many things and keep interest. Harve Presnel
studied for three months and became one of the finest
musicians in my Chorale in a short time because he was
naturally musical. He just needed to be disciplined into
this, but he worked every day at it. And now he is a star
on Broadway. He learned "Te David" by Milhaud, which is
almost an impossible piece, in a relatively short time, in
three languages. He would never have been able to do this
unless he had learned solfege. This was the determining
factor in his career. And today with professional groups,
imagine, we pay $12 an hour per person to record. $121 Now
you multiply that by 30 or 32 and you have $500 or $450 an
hour. Should I spend $450 an hour of my money to teach
people things they should know as professionals? If I have
to work on a piece of medium difficulty, it will take me an
hour to teach a bunch of numbskulls who have no education,
but if they read, I can do four pieces during that hour. I
save $1,000, thus I am able to use them more often because
200
they are economical and they permit me a profit. The whole

thing is a saving factor if they are musicians. I just
cannot accept people who cannot negotiate these things. You
see the importance of it. The interest it gives people, the
amount of music you can do, the economic factors involved in
professionalism along these lines. But this doesn't seep
into the minds of educators and they keep saying "yes";
everyone of them says "oh yes, we think you are right."
They don't do a damn thing about it.
McEWEN Are you aware that some are trying but are barking up the
wrong tree?
WAGNER Well, they have unmusical principals who should have nothing
to say about these things because they are not experts on
the subject. Unfortunately, churches have boards, which I
don't believe in. I have never had a board in my church and
I have been there twenty-three years. We do some of the
best music in the country— every Sunday! Nobody is going to
tell me, an expert in my field, whether I can do Vittoria or
not. Why should a board tell somebody, "We want this
soloist," or "We want this person and not someone else"?
Why should a principal, who is a physical education major,
tell a musician that he should not teach solfeggio? These
are the things that should be determined by musicians who
are in the Board of Education, knowing full well the neces
sity for it. But the whole thing is wrong. We can sit here
and say everything is fine, but it isn't. It's awful! And
every choral man has to suffer with this inadequacy. They
look old before their years because they sit there and pound
on the piano. They become disinterested and bitter, and the
kids just as much because they have to work so hard just to
learn a simple piece.
McEWEN That's fine. That's a wonderful treatment of the subject

here. Are there any nonmusical factors that help somebody
in your organizations? Let's say that the voice is mediocre.
Is there anything else that is significant to a good delivery
of what you want?
WAGNER Of course— the interest. I have found people with mediocre

voices who were a greater contribution to my group than
others, because they were there every minute. And by their
attitude and their morale, they made things easier so that
we could really do things well. Whereas, you have these
people who are prima donnas who have no humility, who come
into a group for glorification of their own egos. They are
a cancer to the outfit. I have had very few, but I have had
people like that on tour almost ruin my organization and
201
ruin my performances, because, no matter how much you told

them to do something, they were not obedient. It's much more
difficult in professional groups. It's a relatively simple
matter to direct a college group and do some real good work
with them, because you have no pressure of unions, you have
obedient kids for the most part with no prejudices in
vocalism or in music, and who are still interested. So the
college director has an advantage. But every time I call my
people in, my professional choir, it's a terribly expensive
thing. We have to work under pressure. Then you have
people who have sung all kinds of music and who are in this
for the job. They happen to have a good instrument. I try
as much as I can to make them interested and dedicated, but
after all, they are running out of my rehearsal to go sing
Dubois' "Seven Last Words" in the church, because it pays.
I can tell them it is lousy music but they say, "But I eat."
And still they don't realize that even though they have to
do this, it affects their taste. So the college people have
it easy. I think it's a picnic at U.C.L.A. I enjoy every
minute of it. Imagine, I walk in there and there's no union
man to tell me to stop. Not only this, but the kids look at
me and they are waiting for me to give them something. They
are interested. You saw the other day when we did these
things. Of course we had to do this on a minimum amount of
preparation because we were asked at the last minute if we
would do this. But they tried. Wonderful spirit!
McEWEN We were talking about little elements of organization; we

should probably pop through a couple here in a hurry. Do
you prefer a particular seating arrangement for any reason?
WAGNER It depends on the music, Doug. In Russian music, for

instance, where the music moves homophonically, I find that
the mixed quartet is a wonderful thing. It's real good. I
am even using it in counterpoint. You say, "How do you cue
your voices?" I say if you know the music well, you don't
have to cue them. I should cue them, why? They can count.
Too many times we nurse them too much. I am guilty of that,
too, at times, but with difficult music it is necessary to
be very accurate with them because they just cannot be that
responsible. We can try to make them that responsible, but
we are not going to take a chance. The choral director
subdivides much too much— he gives every note and ruins the
phrase. If he did a little more orchestral work he would get
away from that. I change. One time I have the sopranos and
tenors on the same side and altos and basses on the other,
and other times I will put my extremes, my sopranos and
basses, together. Sometimes I will put the men in the middle^
girls on each side. I have no format. I only know that I
202
think the quartet arrangement is the most satisfactory

because no matter how bad the acoustics in the hall, they
always have the four parts close to them and they can. tune.
And then I can work with each unit as an individual unit,
and then blend that unit, and then put them together.
McEWEN Generally you like the quartet, but actually is it of great

significance one way or the other?
WAGNER I get more sound in quartets.
McEWEN In your college groups do you find it effective to use

students in any capacity to implement your policy? Do you
use officers?
WAGNER I think that this can be good but I am not one of those
followers of the great organization thing. I am sort of
a "dictator" and I don't have too much patience with this
because I feel that I have to do pretty much of everything
myself. Now, fortunately I have one or two men who handle
my library in the university, or take charge of the robes.
But to have a president, vice-president, a secretary and
treasurer, and all that nonsense, ultimately I have to tell
them what to do anyway, you know. I save myself a lot of
work, probably. I don't know. I haven't experimented that
way.
McEWEN Does U.C.L.A. have much of a scholarship program in music?
WAGNER No, they don't and that's one of the troubles we have over
there. The problem is this. It's a state school with pretty
high scholastic rating and they try not to take any people
with less than a "B" average. That's the rule. They turn
down a lot of people who have to go to junior college before
they can enter there. Also, the tuition is very reasonable.
So, actually, when a person earns a tuition scholarship
there, he doesn't get an awful lot of money. It only means
$50 a semester, as compared to a private school like U.S.C.,
which is $250 or $300. We don't have a very great scholarship
program for applied arts, anyway. I think this is one of the
reasons why it is so difficult to maintain a good orchestra.
As far as the choir is concerned, we haven't had too much
trouble because a good part of my choir there are people
who work at the university and who give up their lunch hour
to come and sing. I have a lot of postgraduates who are
employed by the university who are part of my A Cappella
choir and audit without unit credit. I think that only maybe
50 per cent or 60 per cent of my choir gets credit. They
come for the love of the music and to do good things.
203
McEWEN Do you have any viewpoint on this matter of scholarship

business? You speak of those who come to your group to sing
out of the love for it. Is it conceivable that a scholarship
affair can amount to almost hiring your group?
WAGNER Well, I believe strongly that in cases where a needy person

needs this assistance, they should grant scholarships to
people with real ability. I think all of us would like that
to happen because, first it gives you better material and you
are giving an opportunity to someone who really deserves it.
McEWEN Is there any danger of the feeling being developed among high
school students that the state owes them an education?
WAGNER They do feel that way. I know some very talented people who
wouldn't think of paying to go to school. Unfortunately,
I am afraid they are right because if you get a really good
cellist, you are going to give him a scholarship because you
need that cellist. They've put in a lot of money on lessons,
too; when you consider that, I don't think this is unreason
able .
McEWEN Is there anything that works very well for you in respect to
rehearsal attendance?
WAGNER Rehearsal attendance is always a problem in this day and age

when people have so much to do. But I find that my atten
dance is quite good. As a matter of fact, on actual figures
of my choir, in school, it is almost 100 per cent because I
grade the A Cappella choir on attendance. I can't go through
a whole choir and say one is better than this one. I'm
pretty rigid about this. If they are sick, there is just no
excuse. I'm sorry, you know. I mean I can't go through a
whole dossier to find out who was sick and who wasn't sick.
They're either there or they're not there and if they are
there, they are going to get an "A" because they're there,
and that-proves they know the music and they have worked and
they have put in their time. If they miss once, they can't
get an "A."
McEWEN This is the most effective way to keep them coming?
WAGNER Yes. In school you don't have much problem because they want
a good grade and those who come for the love of it would be
defeating their own purposes if they didn't make rehearsals.
But in the Chorale it is a different story. We have people
in business who have the pressures of business. We keep our
attendance throughout the year at almost 90 per cent, which,
I think, is quite high when you consider there are 140-150 in
204
the group. That is a very high degree of attendance.
McEWEN Is it possible to ask a group to perform too Often?
WAGNER Yes.
McEWEN What happens if it does?
WAGNER That's almost as bad as not performing enough. Not quite.

When they are asked to perform too often— here is a typical
example: this coming week the Chorale sings Monday night,
which is tonight, three or four hours; tomorrow with
orchestra three hours; Wednesday night, performance; Thursday
night, performance; Friday afternoon, performance; Friday
night, recording; and Saturday a morning and afternoon
Christmas recording. If anybody's loaded, they are. This is
unusual. It is a lot, and a lot of them will not take this
kind of thing, and reasonably so. But we try to explain to
them, this is a great thing we are doing. It doesn't happen
often to be that crammed. And they do the best they can.
A lot of people give up a lot. Women have to hire baby
sitters. You have men who have to give up $30, $40, and $50
for a day's work in their business to be able to do it. They
have adopted this as their favorite— how should I say— not
pastime, but this is to them a great hobby. They love it
very much and they would do almost anything to do it right.
McEWEN But too much performance is not good. Would you consider
frequent performance with a college group, using the same
literature, to be more detrimental than frequent performance
using new literature; that is, a new concert every so often?
WAGNER I think a frequent performance of the same literature is

worse than frequent performances of different literature.
From a developmental point of view, it is worse to do the
same music all of the time. From a standard of performance,
to do different music is worse. I think that this is one
factor I have harped about. I, for instance, have gone two
years here when I have only done one performance a year.
Like the "St. Matthew Passion." That's four hours long. A
large work. Or I will work six months on the "B Minor" which
is little enough, a whole semester. To me this is better
than to try to work all the time, and I think that college
groups sing too much, play too much. They put students under
pressure. Students have a lot of other things besides music
to do in school. They have, not only their social life—
fraternities and sororities, which one must respect whether
you like it or not. They have their family to think of, they
have their twenty units they are carrying, or whatever it is,
205
and they have a history teacher -who is a real "dog," and they
have mid-term exams, and so on. They still have to fit in
music. Now if they are talented, they are asked to do
everything. And this is unreasonable and I think they have
overdone it. At U.C.L.A. it has been a great concern to us.
When you have five or six fine violinists in the department,
they are asked to play everything. These people have other
things to do, too, and it is unfair.
McEWEN What happens to this student, in your view, when he is pressed

too hard? What are the results?
WAGNER His grade average begins to drop, and he is not happy about
it; he cannot get all of his work in, his subjects suffer;
and he becomes very unhappy about the whole thing. It gives
him a wrong "steer" on music, too.
McEWEN Can he grow to resent music?
WAGNER He does grow to resent music. I know some of them who have.
They feel that they have become a sort of indispensable
factor, and a lot of things they do are not particularly
engaging to them either, you see. I think that this is a
danger in college— of overtaxing the people. I think they
should hold down their performances. Instead of doing six
or seven concerts a year, limit it to a couple or three and
do them well.
McEWEN Two or three would be optimum?
WAGNER That's right. It would if it is a big work.
McEWEN Do you exercise with your college group any kind of

selectivity in scheduling concerts and tours? How do you
determine which concerts, which circumstances, are the most
desirable?
WAGNER First of all, you must know that I do not try to cater to
public taste. I mean by that, I do music which I think is
so great that if anyone disagrees with me, the limitation
lies with him and not with me. If I do a program I try to
balance the program. For instance, I will do certain programs
this coming year. We will do in one section, the "Requiem"
that takes maybe forty minutes, then I will do Brahms'
Liebeslieder Waltzes, and maybe I will do some work of a
contemporary composer at the end. This will be my program.
But I will have given them different kinds of music, but the
best I know. I do not agree with all of these many
"selections" that they put on. For instance, some college
206
choir conductors think it is good to do fourteen selections

always, and end with "Oklahoma!11 I used to be told by
impresarios that we had to sing something the people
understood. Well, that's nonsense. First of all, it doesn't
give the kids a real feeling of accomplishment when you have
to do all of these short selections. Once in a while if you
are doing a special program for an auditorium or assembly or
for the P.T.A. or something, maybe you want a few two or j
three minute selections. That's fine. But a whole program
of this, I think, is a waste of time on the college level.
I think you have got to give them a sense of the large forms,
of the real expression in music, and keep away from all of
these short little selections that are meant to keep people
from being bored.
McEWEN Would you say that this kind of work is one of the elements
that contribute to the morale of your organization? What
elements contribute to keeping up a group's spirit and
enthusiasm?
WAGNER The personality of the director, his sense of humor, his

knowledge of his subject matter, his dedication to the music
and to his students. Basically, these are the elements. If
a man has a personality which is lacking, say, humor, he may
be a big flop. If a man has humor but has not got something
else, he may be a flop. In other words, an ideal personality
is made up of many ingredients. He has to be a man who is
"hep" to the current day thoughts, too; who is not, to put it
their way, "a square." Sometimes students think a man is a
"square" when they are wrong. You must have the conviction
to tell them, "you may think it is square, but I'll tell
you, you're square," which is the way I talk. A man who has
convictions and who has a background which justifies
authority is an accomplishing man and looks at music as a
vital means of expression. One who is a master at what he
does, but is a man who is fair, strict, and considerate. A
conductor has to have a vivacious personality because the
average student is a deadhead— a nice, wonderful deadhead.
Their blood pressure is low, they are tired from sitting in
those boring classes where they are taught by people who feel
that any insertion of personality distracts from the exposi
tion of their erudition. Most of them are pedantic anyway.
This is not a vitalizing type of thing for a student. So
when he comes into a class of applied arts, like A Capella
choir, or orchestra, you must have someone in front of them
who just overflows with enthusiasm for the music— one who is
not pleased at everything that happens, who is extremely
critical, who always tempers his criticisms by humor without
detracting from their meaning. I criticize my students
207
probably more than anyone. I ’ve never heard anyone more

critical and as strongly critical, but my students still
like me. A couple of years ago I was voted one of the most
popular men on the campus. Yet no one is as strict with them
as I am. I say how mediocre they are, but I shall try to put
up with them. They know in a sense that I mean it very much
but I am humorous about it. I don't become bitter. I always
try to be fair about their grades when they make an effort.
McEWEN Well, you suggest that your remarks are not directed to them
as personalities.
WAGNER Exactly! They know that I am suffering frustrations of

music— not about them.
McEWEN In a lot of places, especially with reasonably developed

departments, where they have an instrumental program, they
frequently during the year do the larger works that use
chorus and orchestra. The orchestra man is putting in time
preparing, and you are working like crazy with the chorus.
Who conducts this? Where does the primary responsibility
lie, or is there one?
WAGNER That all depends on where this happens, Doug. At U.C.L.A.

there is an understanding that any time I do a major work
with orchestra, I conduct. Naturally I should, because I
conduct the Philharmonic on the same thing. If a man has the
ability, he should do it. Unfortunately, in some places, it
is thought that an orchestral man has the knowledge to
conduct orchestra and chorus more than a choral man, and that
is a very false impression. Some orchestral men are worse at
conducting choruses than choral men at conducting orchestras.
Now we also know that there are a lot of choral men who have
no "beat" for an orchestra. This is something which should
be remedied because actually, it is much more simple to
conduct an orchestra than a chorus. At least musicians are
routined to count. I do not think that a choral work should
be conducted by an orchestral man in a college setup. In a
professional setup, you have some choral men who are very
good, but cannot conduct orchestra and, therefore, should not
be put into the situation of direction. They are not
acquainted with the orchestra portions as well as they should
be.
McEWEN In your rehearsals, getting to techniques here, do you

arrange your literature in any kind of sequence to pace the
rehearsal?
WAGNER Sometimes. I pace it only when I feel that my group may be
208
too tired to attack a difficult section at the end of the

rehearsal and, therefore, I sometimes take the most difficult
things at the first.
McEWEN Do you predetermine to any extent what you are going to try
to accomplish, or where you are going to place special
emphasis, today?
WAGNER Yes. On the great works I do. For instance, tonight I have j
planned my rehearsal so that I know the exact sections I am |
going to take first. The ones that need the most work. I
I have also worked out the problem of divisions of beat and j
a very taxing place in the Monteverdi "Magnificat," so that j
I will have them count it out so there is no chance of |
mishap. j
i
McEVJEN Are you able to describe the nature of the choral tone that ;
you consider ideal, that is the kind of tone which you can
call upon to do a variety of things?
I
WAGNER To put it into words would be less effective than to have you j
hear it. I would like you to hear what I consider to be the j
ideal tone for a college choir which I have here on tape and j
which typifies, with no apologies, what I consider to be the j
finest sound that I could imagine. It is a pure tone, it
is an integrated tone, it is a tone that still has vitality
but never sounds forced.
McEVJEN Does your ear ask for a particular kind of balance among
choral sections as men to women? j
WAGNER Always, yes.
McEVJEN What kind of balance could you describe?
WAGNER In a question like this, to be perfectly honest, it depends

on the type of music I am doing. In four-part work I always
use tenors because the tenor protrudes more than any other.
You have to watch that the altos do not get a guttural,
chesty sound in the middle register which does not blend.
And if the girls go to extremes in the high, be careful they
do not sing flat on the top tones and do not shake and do not
protrude like a lot of church choirs where you have forty
sopranos, two tenors, one baritone, and five altos. And that
the basses do not curl up their tongues and think they sound
rich when they are only ones that can hear the voices.
Things of that kind. What we must do then is establish a
fusion of sound in which, as you point out, the balance must
be created in a certain way.
209
McEWEN Do you like a particular ratio of men to women in your

chorus?
WAGNER Oh yes. For the most part I like a little more men than
women.
McEWEN Heavier in the basses?
WAGNER Yes.
McEWEN Do you put much stress on the uniform handling of vowels?
WAGNER. Yes. In the earlier stages of rehearsing I come to some

understanding about the unification of vowel sounds. Whether
they pronounce "oh," "ah," "a," "e." The only vowel they can
pronounce correctly at the beginning and sound good is "ooo."
The worst is "ah" and "e." "Ah" would be an open vowel, and
"e" a pretty open one. They spread the tone. They do not
focus it, so I try to keep the tone in the same place.
I
McEWEN Is this one of the significant elements as to what you think
of as a professional sound or as your ideal sound? Is this
one of the central things? j
i
WAGNER Yes, definitely. I've a tape here which typifies exactly !
what I am talking about. You hear no spreading of sound.
The unification of vowel sounds is vitally important because
your whole approach to choral ensemble is unification. The
more they think together and do together, the better it is
going to be.
McEWEN Does this enhance what we sometimes refer to as choral "line"?
WAGNER "Line" would have to do more with the horizontal thought in

the phrase, but it would be sound integration, sound fusion.
That's what I think of basically.
McEWEN Do you find that "line" offers any problem for the collegiate
people?
WAGNER Of course it does. I don't know of one collegiate group

that I have heard that has a really good "line." This is
because they don't have their roots in the chant and in
polyphony, and that's where you get it.
McEWEN Do you find that attacks and articulations, that sort of

thing, are significant elements in the refinement of your
choral sound?
210
WAGNER I think that all of these things you speak about stem from
the rhythmic consciousness of the conductor. If the
conductor is rhythmically conscious, he will automatically
point these things out. Off beats, so that they learn to
come off the beat. And all of these exciting rhythmical
things are part of the conductor’s personality and his
consciousness of the importance of these things.
McEWEN "Line" would be involved in the musical phrase. Is this

refinement of the phrase something that needs to be adhered
to pretty carefully?
WAGNER I think this kind of a thing in certain music is almost

indispensable to choral art and unless the conductor has that
sensitivity for the "line," he is missing one of the most
essential qualities of the choral artist.
McEWEN We were talking about conducting a second ago and I think

maybe our chance to enlarge on this may be here. Do you have
any theory concerning the special function or unique
responsibility that conducting can convey?
WAGNER Yes. I am bitterly opposed to anything that has to do with

"gimmicks." For instance, there is the retarded beat.
That's where the conductor conducts and then the choir comes
in. That's unnecessary. I hate any mannerisms because one
of the essential qualities of a conductor is simplicity,
naturalness, and all of these qualities which are unaffected.
Any time it become affected then it is not real. Many
directors go through life without working on their style;
therefore, they get into terrible habits. They begin
directing with the shoulders, they get little "hooks" into
their conducting, little mannerisms which they think are
"cute."
McEWEN What is wrong with these extraneous little habits that they
get into?
WAGNER It detracts from the music. It adds nothing, although it

does satisfy a little ego. It gets in the way of the music.
It shows that they have not applied themselves to the
importance of working on their conducting. I have stood in
front of a mirror for months conducting large works to be
sure that my beat was right. I have had pictures taken, of
myself. I was horrified at first at things I would do. I
would ask myself, "Why did the phrase not come out so well"?
Maybe it was the way I conducted.
McEWEN What should conductors do then?
211
WAGNER Conducting should transmit to the instrumentalists, or the

singers, the spirit and the technique of the phrase. The
thought behind the whole thing; not only with the hands, but
with the eyes, with the face, and with the body. Too many
conductors are the "great stone face." They have no
expression and, therefore, cannot inspire anyone. They must
live in their eyes and their face, they must reflect the
whole thought behind the phrase. Their hands are only a
means of indicating to the choir the progress of the phrase
or to help them to be more authoritative in their entrance.
Maybe they will signify drama with a fist, maybe they will
caress the phrase gently. All of these things will affect
what comes out.
McEWEN Would you say that you feel your conducting needs to come as
close as possible to looking just as the music is to sound?
Extra movements would imply music that isn't there?
WAGNER Exactly. I have seen at the end of something where the

choir and orchestra had pianissimo and the conductor gave a
sharp cutoff which was not in character with the music at all.
It was terribly distracting, and not good. Another, as you s
know, who tried to amaze people with little gestures too

small for the music, simply because they were trying to
impress people that they had a dynamic personality which did
not need gestures to be able to make people sing. We come to
the basis of honesty and sincerity. It is lack of affecta
tion. It is sincerity to oneself and to the performers, to
the people and to the music. It is a basic honesty and
directness and frankness which is not veneered by egotism,
by false values, by artificiality or frills— by all sorts of
things which stand in the way of true art.
(Following the playing of a tape-recorded concert of

sixteenth century polyphonic music, the interview resumed.)
WAGNER Conductors must realize that they have to steep themselves

in early music. There is a "mystical" quality which they can
only produce if they understand it. The lack of understanding
is the big weakness of most performances of Renaissance music.
I have told many conductors this. I have said, "So you begin
with Bach, but you are starting with a composer who is way
down the line in music history. He is tops in his field in
his period, but what came before him?" The real vocal music.
They don't know enough about this. They go into Brahms'
"First Symphony" and into other works before they know. They
are already studying Shakespeare before they have learned to
write. I'm so thankful for this background. You take music
right from the beginning up to the present day and cover
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every phase of it. You heard the sound that came out of a
bunch of kids.
McEWEN How are we to impress the importance of early music upon

undergraduates?
WAGNER A lot has to do with the bad publications of the work. They
are unreadable. Conductors take little trouble to study the
early chant, yet when you hear it done well, it is so
perfect— and look what it does to your sound. It gives a
feeling of unison and oneness, so that when you go into
parts, you have perfect unison. My men's unison there is
just about perfect, in the girls, too. When you put these
into parts we carry the thought right through and there it
is.
McEWEN What does this do to the musical architecture, if you please?
WAGNER Well, it just carries that "line" as though it spirals to

the heavens. You never hear an interruption. I said, "Die
first, before there is an interruption in that song. Die
first." I would say it like this to them. It has to keep
moving— and moving up and upward. I would like to get this
record out and send one to all these choral men. I want
them to listen.
McEWEN Would they do that as an educational project over there at

U.C.L.A.?
WAGNER Well, we have our "St. Matthew" on records for the students.
The whole performance with the orchestra from U.C.L.A. and
the chorus. Marilyn Horn is a soloist.
McEVJEN We certainly enjoyed her work down at San Diego.
WAGNER She certainly has a wonderful background. I yelled at her

for six years that she was flat. "Your vibrato is belowj
get it up, girl, get it up," and she's never forgotten it.
You can hear now how true she sings. She has developed on
operatic lines because she has the organ there. Don't forget
she has six, seven years of great choral work behind her
that gave her musicianship. A good choral background never
hurts these good singers.
McEWEN Probably the critical element exercised upon them there

resulted in some bases of criticism of themselves. Is there
a significant difference between choral and instrumental
conducting? Two conducting courses so often exist.
213
WAGNER Basically, no. If there is any difference it is brought

about by people who decide to do things their own original
way. An orchestral director, usually, in his treatment of
the music and his approach to rhythm, is dealing with people
who are used to playing a note off the beat. For instance,
when there is an eighth rest on the downbeat, the conductor
gives a strong downbeat and they come in after the beat.
Whereas choral directors nurse their people along and give
them each note. It is a matter of training and routine which
promotes that kind of conducting in a choral director.
McEWEN But if we were to break this down into lowest terms, so to

speak, in spite of what is done or what habits people get
into . . .
WAGNER There is no difference between a choral "beat" and an !

orchestral "beat .11 In dealing with voices sometimes you have
to smooth out your "beat" in order to get a flow of sound,
but you do the same thing with a violin section and get it.
When the music is rhythmic you should be just as precise with
a chorus as with an orchestra.
i
McEWEN Does it still need to look the way the music sounds?
WAGNER That's right. You have got to be in character. Your beat

and your whole attitude has to be in character with the music.
I really am very impatient with people who are not clear and
precise just because they are directing voices. You can
probably get away with a little more percussive beat with the
orchestra whereas with the chorus you might make it sound a
little harsh. But again there is such a slight difference.
McEWEN Is it a matter of training again?
WAGNER Yes, it is. When I conduct the Beethoven "Missa Solemnis,"

I have to conduct the chorus and the orchestra together; here
is the proof. So when they sing the "Fugue" I direct the
chorus exactly the way I direct the orchestra. They feel the
impact and the meaning of the music. There is no difference.
McEWEN Do you have any way, when you are working with your group, of
speeding up their response to what you show, so that you
don't have to talk about something?
WAGNER Oh yes. I begin to get terribly excited. My eyes start to

flash, I shake my hand at them, I try to "spark" them. One
of my hands shakes at them while I spark them with more
intensity. Or I point at them to say "now." You have got to
be a driver all of the time. It is this "follow through,"
214
this intensity towards an objective that they have to get

into the music. Once you get that urgency, that feeling of
continuity, that tension in a choir, then you have great
performances coming. If that's missing, then you just get
a community sing.
McEWEN Does this involve two things? First, an insight into what it
is, precisely, that you want, and then anticipation of the
weaknesses of your group? To call their attention to
something before it arrives?
WAGNER The whole answer to all the problems facing a choral director
can be summed up into two statements. Know what you want,
and Know how to get it. That's all. Take a great piece of
music. Know what you want out of it, know what the composer
wants, know how to get the results. Once you understand that,
you "have it made." Of course, under these headings come
the enormous amount of qualifications necessary to do justice
to it. To be able to make your group sound right, to be able
to make them do justice to the music, to stress the intensity
of the words that mean so much. This "energy" in the group—
I even have them link arms at times on a fugue to be able to
feel this "pull" into the music. On the Mozart "Requiem,"
the "Cum Sanctis," we link arms. They sounded as though they
were doing a Vittoria "Motet," and I said, "This is not it at
all. There is an excitement and an energy in this fugue
which escapes you completely. It doesn't drive. It is not
flowing. You must feel like a great chain." Then I thought,
"Great chain— link arms," and said, "I want you to sing and
pull arms." And they smile at you as if, you know, you're
out of your head. But they got it. It worked.
McEWEN Have you done it since?
WAGNER Yes.
McEVJEN That's a very interesting idea. What do you think are the
chief causes of bad intonation?
WAGNER There are several. First, lack of pitch consciousness by

the conductor. The conductors lack discipline in this
matter. They should always correct them even when there is
the slightest indication of faulty intonation. Also, the
preparation to the note. The thinking process. They must
think before they sing. The others are faulty production,
fatigue, wrong key signatures, wrong acoustics. All of these
lead to faulty intonation. You know some people say there is
no such thing as bad acoustics. I heard my impresario, Sol
Hurok, on the Jack Parr Show, say, "There are only bad
215
acoustics for bad artists." That’s not true. Heifetz will

sound dead in a dead hall no matter how great his violin is
and so will the greatest choir in the world, if they do not
have the proper acoustics that do justice to the "instrument."
A violin played in a piece of velvet has no resonance.
Neither does the voice have any resonance in a hall that is
"wired for no sound." Therefore, that's why I am so
particular about acoustics. Everywhere I go I tear down
curtains and I try to situate wood around my people so that
they have something to help them sing, as well as being heard.
Our stages in this country are built all wrong. They are
built for everything but music. Some tone always escapes.
There are some places in Europe and on the East coast, like
Symphony Hall in Boston or the Royal Festival Hall in London,
where there is no proscenium. There's an elevation at the
end of the hall which is part of the hall and that's where
the concert takes place. There are none of these curtains
that eat up the sound. No proscenium that goes up forty feet
where your tone escapes you. This is silly. You can't have
these kinds of things.
McEWEN Well, now, fatigue overtakes a group and they begin to sag.
When you are working with a group what do you do?
WAGNER I lightenup the sound rather than asking them to sing out
too much. I have them lighten up the sound and, if possible,
if it is a capella, transpose the music up. Sometimes we do
that. There are certain key signatures they just hit. It
depends on the place.
McEWEN We talked about festival choruses a few days ago. When you
go into a situation where you are not responsible for the
training a group has had, what are the central considerations
in choosing literature?
WAGNER We must choose literature to which they can do justice. It

must have an element of challenge but it must never be
literature which will be out of the compass of their vocal
limitation, or which is beyond them. Too many times they
attempt things that are either too easy or too difficult.
Also, avoid trite literature. Some of those Russian
arrangements vdiich are so impressive need low D's and you
don't find them in high school. They attempt these things
with high A's that shriek, or B flats. In choosing
literature there should be quality to the literature, by
wonderful composers, things that have been tested to be good.
We cannot experiment with these kids. After all, we are
giving them an education. They must do good things. Keep
away from the trite things. No matter where I go they are
216
going to choose things that they think the kids will "enjoy.11
An arrangement of "Jingle Bells" or the same old "Madame
Jeanette's." They think this isjust wonderful.
McEWEN Given any particular style would you say you want something
that is moreor less straightforward, clear cut?
WAGNER Yes. I want things that are not transcriptions, for the most
part. I want things that are the product of a "Master" and
I have recommended such things to all my festivals. They
always ivant something light. Light music is music that people
will understand, supposedly, and heavy music is music people
are too "dumb" to absorb. Music is not heavy to a person who
understands it, so it is a matter of education. If they
would raise their standards in repertoire, then I am sure
the children would surprise the teachers by accepting it.
My kids never enjoyed a concert more than the lbth century
concert we did here, and they came from all -walks of life.
McEWEN Are there any primary aims that you try to accomplish with a
big chorus? Do you want them to respond in a certain way, or
be able to develop a certain facility?
WAGNER The first thing you do is you win them over by the ability to
hold them together and to unify them in a short space of
time. You attack the problems first that are the worst.
When I directed the All State Texas High School group (a
marvelous bunch of kids) I had trouble with the tenors at
first. They were trying to sing out and were flatting. So
I lightened the sound and I gave them exercises on "purr" and
things of that kind, which developed that head sound and
their pitch problems were solved right there. I worked with
them very hard. The worst thing that happens with festival
choruses— they are badly prepared. They are only prepared
in those things that they sing as a group, alone. When the
ensembles get together, you find out they have not had the
preparation. I don't think that I have had more than one
group in my whole life that was well prepared and that was a
group I directed up in Portland. It was superbly prepared.
Girls. There were 150-175 girls doing a very challenging
program prepared by Nuns in Catholic Schools. The most
superb thing you have ever heard. I went to a festival in
Oklahoma that had 4815 voices. It was like a circus. They
had three different editions of each copy, in preparing them,
so you could not put some of the numbers together. The whole
thing was a farce because when you get that many voices you
are trying to make them sound like a hundred voices. They
are so far removed from each other that there is no
possibility of really getting a rhythmical pulsation in the
217
thing. It is just a big, massive, impressive array. They

had 600 instruments. Half of them played out of tune. The
thing was supposed to inspire you but it didn't. It was just
that they wanted to have the biggest festival in the world.
I told them, there in-front of 200 teachers, that they were
mediocre and I never wanted to come again. 1 told the kids:
"Work hard. I don't want to discourage you, but you work
hard and learn how to sing well and you won't have to sing
5000 together to do it well." But the teachers were
responsible.
McEVJEN Does a matter of dynamic range constitute any difficulty with

a big group like that?
WAGNER No. You can work, cynamics being relative, you can get a
wide dynamic range. But it is just a matter of cueing by
"radar." Getting precision and getting ensemble. I did a
thing for years with a thousand voices in Stockton and we got
some pretty good results there because of the physical setup,
but that's about the limit. But that's a lot of voices
together.
McEWEN In your adjudications that you just talked about, what are
the choral weaknesses that you see most often?
WAGNER Musicianship of the choral director; the lack of taste in

selecting good repertoire; the lack of stress as to funda
mental things such as pitch, intonation; a completely
distorted quality of tone production which does not fit the
music they do; a sort of "methodized" adherence to a "vocal
school." I heard a high school group, for instance, sing
everything like a Negro spiritual. And when it did a Negro
spiritual, it was very effective because they had a Negroid
sound about them, and they weren't Negroes. They were white.
But the woman had dedicated years to making them sound as if
they were thirty years old. These sixteen year old kids!
There was a very big vibrato of the voices and a hollow sound,
but when they did sixteenth century numbers, it was tragic.
It was so tragic they couldn't go on.
McEWEN Are these implications of faulty teacher training or does

most of this stem from a personal inadequacy, do you think?
WAGNER Part of it is personal inadequacy and part of it is bad

training. We are not thorough. For instance, how many
school teachers know how to teach the unchanged voice in
junior high? I spent ten years of study in this field. I
went with the greatest teachers: Father Finn, Father
O'Malley— who were experts in their field— Tertius Noble.
213
You can make thirty boys well trained and get it to sound
like the most heavenly thing in the world. But you hear
festivals from the Board of Education with 300 boys, it
doesn't sound as large as twelve. They haven't developed the
tone. They make the boy think his voice is lower than the
girl's. That's nonsense. The boy's voice is exactly the
same as the girl's until the age of the change. The vocal
cords are exactly the same length and, therefore, they should
be made to sing soprano and be trained exactly as a boys'
choir should be trained. You must know how to make them sing
through the change. My best men were boy sopranos who have
never stopped singing since the age of eight and who are
professionals today. But you must know how to prepare for
the change by the meeting of the two registers on a downward
scale. Stay away from "Ooo" and all those vowels that
characterize head qualities and bring up the man's voice that
is already starting and meeting the two so there is no break.
McEVJEN You mentioned musicianship and choosing literature— elements

of that sort. They would certainly have implications for
teacher training, would they not?
WAGNER That's right. And a responsibility as an educator not to try

to compete with TV and personalities and entertain with music.
Music is a serious business. There is humor in it, too, but
you are educators, so there is no necessity to try to "stun"
people with the "gimmicks" and "rabbits out of the sleeve"
and quick closes and "dinnng-donnng" things.
McEVJEN Some other things we have talked about today apply to this
very thing. Well then, in conclusion, would you have any
advice or recommendation to young choral conductors with
respect to the pursuit of a certain "kind" of experience or
a particular "kind" of study that would be most effective?
WAGNER Study the great works and as soon as possible perform them.
Do steep yourself in the tradition of ancient music from the
very beginning of the chant through the polyphonic period—
all the way through. Through the baroque period right through
to the romantic period, right through to the contemporary
idiom. Experience all of these things. Have a feeling for
musical values. Have a respect for the phrase. Have a
respect for the composer's intentions. Also know when he is
right and know when he is wrong. Do a lot of music. Do not
become stagnant; have great hopes and treat your high school
groups or your college groups as if they were professionals.
Don't apologize for them, because they are going to be as
good as you are. The chorus is as good as its conductor.
219
McEWEN There*s a good point.
WAGNER It always is. I mean this. And I mean taking everything

into account, it is as good as its conductor because he is
responsible for the selection of the singer. He is
responsible for the selection of the music. He is
responsible for the training; for the presentation; for the
whole thing.
McEWEN Thank you very much.
220
APPENDIX D
INTERVIEWS WITH CHARLES HIRT
UNIVERSITY OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA
First Interview
McEWEN Could we begin with a little discussion concerning your

training as well as your teaching experience; perhaps briefly
as a prologue to any later discussion? We would be interested
to know where your collegiate training was taken, Dr. Hirt.
HIRT My collegiate training was taken at Occidental College as an

undergraduate. Both my master's and doctoral training for
the Ph.D. were taken right here atU.S.C.
McEWEN Would you speak to the point ofwhether you would consider
these schools of the teacher training type or more of the
conservatory variety of training?
HIRT Well, Occidental is a liberal arts college and there I

received my degree in music, double-majored with education,
so I would have a teacher's credential when I left there.
It was back in '34. Howard Swan was teaching my wife history
at Eagle Rock High School at that time. Mr. Hartly was at
Occidental. To speak of the teacher training aspect, I think
that is one of the strong points about Occidental College.
They have a fine education program there as well as a fine
undergraduate program. S.C. is ofcourse a more conservatory
type, as we discussed at lunch.
McEWEN Do you recall any student performing or conducting experiences

as being significant to your subsequent musical development?
Does anything stand out in your mind as a part of that?
HIRT We mentioned just this noon the name of John Smallman. This
person more than any other single person or single factor was
instrumental in directing my creative outlets into choral
music. I suppose I always felt that I would find music
my "metier" for my life's work but it was he who had the
earliest and most profound influence on my life musically.
I was in high school at that time. In 1929 I toured the
221
"States" as part of the professional choir -which he was con

ducting at that time. It was called the Smallman A Cappella
Choir, the first choir to be called by the subsequently
overused tern "a cappella." But I shouldn't forget that if
this is being recorded I admit that I had to lie about my age
in order to get on that choir tour. We traveled for three
months and when I came back I had had such wonderful experi
ences in music and in personal relationships with music and
in literature through this man and his colleagues that it
left an indelible influence.
McEWEN Now this was when you were in high school when you made this
tour?
HIRT Yes, I was just out of high school. As a matter of fact,

I was rehearsing with them my senior year, and the tour
occurred right after graduation.
McEWEN And your association with Mr. Smallman continued after you
entered Occidental?
HIRT Yes, I studied voice with him and I studied conducting with
him during my years at Occidental.
McEWEN I see. Would you consider these to be of greater signifi

cance than perhaps your actual performing experiences while
you were at Occidental?
HIRT Yes, because I was tied up pretty much with academic pursuits
at Occidental, although the records belie that somewhat. I
was active in the Glee Clubs. My senior year I was president
of the Men's Glee, president of the S.A.E. House, of the DO
Club and of the Occidental Players at that time. So creative
activity was not minimized at Occidental. But I would say my
individual expression came outside, through the Smallman
choir, perhaps more.
McEWEN Speaking of the academic circumstances indicated by your

record, have any academic courses taken during any of your
collegiate undergraduate or graduate work made a particularly
lasting impression upon your musical development? Did any
course serve as an especially exciting or stimulating kind of
experience?
HIRT Perhaps because it was closer to me chronologically, my

research for my doctorate was. While I was at Occidental
I roomed at the fraternity house with Rolantin Kovasov, an
exchange student from Manchukuo. He and I became very close
friends and we found many things in common, music being one
222
of them. I gave him English and French lessons in exchange

for Russian. Through him I became very interested in the
Russian tradition, so that ■when it came to my dissertation
subject I chose an area which was not only sentimentally dear
to me but was important musicologically. And that is the
Plainsong of Orthodoxy as it was manifest through the Graeco-
Slavonic branch of the Byzantine church, and all courses
related to that. All courses which were musicological and
historical— these stayed with me more than anything else that
I've had, identified with a classroom situation.
McEWEN Have you retained to any meaningful extent any undergraduate

choral concepts or would you say that they are more closely
allied to your experiences with Mr. Smallman outside the
college?
HIRT Outside, I think.
McEWEN Have your present choral views evolved largely from your own
practical experience of conducting in the field, or would you
say that they are more an outgrowth or development of earlier
implanted concepts?
HIRT Well, I believe all of us are eclectic enough to have drawn

from many sources. It is hard, once having accepted an idea,
to be able to trace back its source. I know there were many
people who influenced this apart from Mr. Smallman. I know
that John Finley Williamson and Bob Shaw have affected my
views. Many of my students have, the laboratory experiences
in the classroom, the rehearsals, the Father Finn whom I have
had occasion to observe, and also the Christiansens, Olaf and
Paul. These men all have somehow converged to affect my
life, but how can I possibly say that one viewpoint grew from
them? In fact there is nothing completely static about any
of my views. They seem to be changing over the years.
I teach each course differently and strangely enough, like
Howard and many of us, we're teaching courses we've never
taken. We've had to synthesize things we have felt and
believed and try to couch them in organization and language
that will communicate to our students almost as one would
approach a dissertation, as you are approaching yours. It
has no form except as you give it form.
McEWEN Do you feel, consequently, that eclecticism would be more

appropriate to your point of view and your procedures?
HIRT I'm not sure I understand that. Let me talk around it then.
I con't believe any mature musician has taken anybody's
method. I think methodology is an undergraduate term.
223
Perforce, we teach methodology. In my beginning conducting

classes I'm arbitrary. I'll say, "Ladies and gentlemen, this
is the standardized pattern. Keep your forearm parallel
with the floor. Localize the hinge from the elbow." The
whole class is stereotyped to do certain arbitrary things,
because this is the only way of approaching something to
which they have no practical reference. Then, in the
advanced conducting class you approach them much as you live
your life. You no longer superimpose on them a method, or
even your method. You help them become eclectic, too, and
find their own way. If they look like me when they conduct,
if someone says, "I can tell he is your student because his
choir sounded like this or he looked like this, or had these
mannerisms," I immediately look to see what I am doing wrong.
It is antagonistic to my belief. In our classes we don't
close our minds to methodology but we again encourage
eclecticism. We will play recordings of Christiansen and a
straight line tone. I'll play Roger's recordings, Howard's
recordings, Bob's, my own. Sometimes we don't even label
them but try to infer from what we hear, certain things that
label this as a style or concept. But in no way do my
students infer that they are to adopt any of these "per se,"
but to let them also impinge on their thinking and affect
their own lives. They find, truly, a way, but it must be
their way; it is nobody else's. If I were like anyone else
or if Howard or Rog were like someone else, it would be an
imitation, and yet each is honest in his own way.
McEVJEN This brings up a matter that I hope we will be able to touch

upon a little later. That is, the matter of these choral
schools and the kind of tone and procedure which appears to
be rather stereotyped; so that with eyes closed we can
recognize this kind of product.
HIRT This is a good point of departure though. I respect a

person; I respect Christiansen when he comes here and says,
"This is my choir and it sings with a straight line tone"—
which I, perhaps, cannot accept. Except I find myself
sometimes striving for it in seme very contemporary music or
some polyphonic, sixteenth century music, as it adapts to
what I want. But I respect that highly because this man
believes it. Much more than a person who comes with no
specific concept at all, who offends the art by believing
that something will happen if he just "goes at it" and sings
music— a person who has no preconceived philosophy. Now, I
think that the difference is in maturity. I hope that we
will rise above these although we may have to start from
these techniques. We use both in our classroom situation.
I imagine you would do the same in Colorado. If someone were
224
to ask me how to get to my house, I would say, "You go out

here and get on the ramp that takes you north on the Harbor
Freeway, go five miles, turn left off the Riverside Ramp to
San Fernando Road," and that would give you short-time goals.
"Turn at this service station ; watch for this second red
light; go out here." But if you really had experienced this,
then I would say, "Come and see me this evening at home,"
knowing the goal would immediately reveal to you the way.
I feel that beyond a certain point, if we can, having
acknowledged the frailty of the uninitiated, let us speak,
and having perforce given them this rather elementary way,
then we can ultimately reveal a goal by which they can find
their own way. This is the difference between the under
graduate and the graduate approach. So, method has its place
in the former but not in the latter, except as the person
infers his own method. In other words this first method
acknowledges our immaturity and weaknesses, but is nonethe
less important where it has to be applied. The stop signals
down the street are like that. If everyone knew, over all,
the principle involved, we would not need them. They would
be cautious where caution is due. I resent, when coming home
late at night when there is no traffic, having to stop for a
stop signal when I know good and well, and so would any
officer nearby, that to go through that stop signal is no
hazard to anyone's life. It may save time and efficiency in
my own, but I have to stop. This is acknowledging the kind
of superimposed, lower level methodology that we have to
impose on ourselves because of our weakness, not of our
strengths. When we get beyond a certain level then we no
longer stereotype. Walking into my beginning conducting
class, they're very much alike. Walking into my advanced
conducting class, if they are very much alike, I'm very sad
because I have failed in helping each person discover himself.
Having discovered himself, he will, perforce, be different
from anyone else. We want to trim off mannerisms; we want to
become more efficient; we don't want to depart from standard
ized practices; we want a sensitivity; but at the same time
we want all of this realised in the individuality of each
conductor. I think, to come back to your first question,
this is what has happened in my life. I learned many of the
basic techniques at Occidental. I had an "organic" experience
with Smallman and subsequently, by observation and practical
application in the rehearsal and performance situations, I
have developed what I feel is honestly mine now and in no way
implies that it should be anyone else's, except as we work on
principle. That's different. We are working for the same
goals, but methods by which we realize these goals differ
with the individual, I think.
225
McEWEN I was glancing briefly at this biographical sketch that you

gave me a few minutes ago. It mentions that you spent some
eight years in the public schools prior to coming to the
University of Southern California. Could you comment briefly
on how you spent those eight years?
HIRT I have always cherished those years because they gave me

experience in various levels of student understanding. My
first teaching experience was in junior high school; I taught
for three years in junior high, and then went to senior high
for three more years. After two years in a junior college
situation, I came here to S.C., where I'm on my nineteenth
year. But I shall always cherish my other years because I
came to know youth and to see this maturation process take
place. When I deal with my people now who are, many of them,
music education students or church music majors who are going
to either handle youth in the school or the church, I feel I
can speak, not from the "ivory tower," but from practical
experience, when I discuss the psychological problems
involved; the problems of communication; what one can
reasonably expect of their toleration points, and so on.
McEWEN Has your teaching experience at the college level involved

content or music education courses, or would you consider
your church music activity in another area?
HIRT You are speaking specifically of church music?
McEVJEN I'm talking about your collegiate teaching experiences.

Would you consider any of the course work that you have
taught to fall into the category of music content, as history
and that kind of technical academic course, or in music
education, teacher preparation, in other words?
HIRT Yes, my first three years at S.C. i taught music education.

I placed the cadet teachers and they were in high schools and
junior high schools, observed their teaching, and had that
responsibility. That's before we got into the church music
program and before conducting became expanded to its present
dimensions. So I have had that academic experience apart
from music per se; also in church music we have been teaching
music history in the sense that we teach church music history.
Musicology comes into it and the teaching of hymnology, and
certainly in liturgical practices. We have a course called
Music of the Great Liturgies and it involves historical
facts. My Ph.D. is with a musicology major, so musicology is
strong in my academic background.
McEWEN As you look back upon the earlier teaching days, would you
226
say that there was any central idea that prompted you to move
from one teaching situation to another— any goal or
motivating factor?
HIRT No, except as the old maturation process continued. When I

was trying to sit and introspect enough to write a preface to
this manuscript, about which I was earlier speaking, I asked
myself that question. It seemed to reveal something that
probably is true in the lives of most of us. I first got a
teaching credential to teach public school work because I had
fallen in love and teaching was one way I could get a quick
job with a contract— not a very exalted goal. So my motiva
tion there was to get something besides a Bachelor of Arts
degree from Occidental, to wit: a teaching credential, and
to get the job quickly. But strangely enough I happened to
find, one and one-half years later, an opportunity to go into
a professional musical outlet with considerably more salary,
and I refused it, which would have amazed me had I been told
this would happen a couple of years earlier. My values had
changed a little further. I had fallen in love with the
teaching, as a process, and I was very happy with my present
position in that I got to work with youth and that there was
a wonderful, vicarious joy out of sharing what you felt about
music with others and seeing it grow in them. Later on I
found my pull toward university teaching and yet a third step
came into play. My values changed— not that they minimized
the importance of teaching— but the importance of the art of
music became more obsessive with me. I wanted an avenue of
teaching where I could work with people who were not students
to whom I had to communicate with a simpler vernacular, but
students who could work with me in the process of discovery
and with whom I could speak without trying to minimize ideas
and thoughts and simplify them. So I found university
teaching much happier for me. I think the pull for the
creative side of music is much stronger than the actual
pedagogical side of teaching which brought me into high school
work. So I don't know where the next step is but it's been a
wonderful joy moving in this direction. My last two chapters
of this manuscript, as you will see tomorrow, are very much
in the rough, but I tried to bring out these very aspects.
My penultimate chapter is called "The Choral Conductor, a
Pedagogue" and my last chapter "The Choral Conductor, a
Performing Artist." If we really mature in our lives as
choral musicians, we have to find a balance here. Music is,
indeed, an important teaching tool in that in the process of
the rehearsal, of preparing a program, one finds himself able
to elevate and to impart to others wonderful principles, about
life, about music, about course content. But this is not
enough. It would not be enough if MENC had its slogan "Music
227
for Every Child" because this would mean music was only a
tool, that it was something, albeit great as an art, that
could be diluted to the point where it could be shared with
all and could become expendable in a sense, for educational
goals. True enough, music does all of this, but I feel, the
books that have been written, the things that have been said,
the general trend of things, disturb me some, and this last
chapter I hope will help equate this. Not to disparage
music as an educational device or the choral musician as a
pedagogue, but to add to that the art itself and to somehow
acknowledge the fact that music is not just something that
happens in the process but something that happens in the
product. Having exalted music to the point where we try to
realize something quite wonderful out of it; where we have
faith that it holds really unrealized potential in
acknowledging this greatness of music, some of these other
by-products follow suit- We are going to arrive at some of
our educational goals by the exaltation of music. She's a
rather proud lady, and she doesn't reveal herself unless we
prostrate ourselves before her sometimes. If we forget this
latter and only think of the former, I'm afraid music will be
diluted down to become a rather ineffectual art, when it can
be one of the most wonderful of the arts. The fact that
everyone has a voice and can learn to use it much more
readily than he can a violin or some man-made instrument,
makes this even more important to us. This is wandering
somewhat from your question about the various levels of my
teaching experience, but it is the realization of what I have
just said about that final chapter that has perhaps brought
me to my present point of view and my present position here
at S.C.
McEWEN This leads very nicely into the section here that concerns
your music philosophy. You have begun to touch on it
beautifully to this minute, but could you speak more on other
ways concerning your philosophy, as to the nature of, or the
purpose of music? Is it an entity? Why, or for what does it
exist? Perhaps choral music particularly, if you choose.
HIRT Well, I suppose I could answer this question by referring to

my interest in church music. We've passed through a rather
sterile period it seems to me— sterile because of the
philosophy we have held. We've thought that not only in
educational, entertainment, and professional music, but also
in church circles, music could adorn, could beautify, could
entertain, but we have lost the concept that the early Greeks
had of music, that it had powers far transcending any of
these. To refer to the "ethos" that the Greeks used—
attributing to music the power to moralize or demoralize,
228
acknowledging music as an art so exalted that it could not

be given to the populus without controls for fear that this
lethal weapon could be used diabolically. As Plato puts it
in the mouth of Socrates, "Music should be held by the state
because it's such a wonderful weapon to control the populus."
It could drive them to their knees or drive them to battle.
It has this kind of efficacy. I suppose my philosophy stems
from that concept somewhat. I believe we should once again
rediscover that music can do these many other things. That
in worship, it cannot just beautify and adorn like the
stained glass windows, but it has efficacy far beyond that.
The early Christians knew it. Orthodoxy believes it today.
There is no such thing as a low mass in Graeco-Slavonic
Orthodoxy. They feel that the precious words of liturgy
won't reach heaven unless they are ensconced in music; that
music is indispensable to the efficacy of these words— of the
sacred text of liturgy. I don't accept that literally, but
I do accept it in principle; I think that even in our
Presbyterian Church, such as mine, music can function with
an efficacy far beyond that which has been attributed to it
in the past. I think there are two reasons why it has not
been. One is we just haven't believed. We don't have the
faith that music can do these things. Music won't do these
things unless we can believe it will, any more than our
students in the classroom can accomplish something unless we
can believe they will. We have to have that kind of
instilled faith before things happen. We won't have
literature like the literature of the sixteenth century or
the plainsong of the sixth to ninth centuries forthcoming
from our contemporary composers until they have this kind of
faith. I'm anxious to get them in my classes so that we can
help them understand these things. We won't have the
directors who can realize the music does hold this potential.
The literature that is already available is wonderful and
powerful, lying there in the archives ready to be discovered
and reproduced. We can't get it from our singers unless we
have this faith in them that they too can understand this and
produce it. First, I think that this has not come to pass
because we have not had this faith. Secondly, I think it
hasn't come to pass because we have not had the opportunities
for realizing this. We have not had academic institutions
which made available to the inquiring young mind the truth of
what we believe. We haven't had any way of harnessing the
power latent in some of this youth to direct it to these
paths. I think that we have wasted great talent which has
become side-tracked into lower values and sometimes rather
ineffectual commercial music. My church, for instance, has
just made a rather important stride in trying to correct the
lack of realization of the power of music. They are now, for
229
the third year, having scholarships made available to

promising young talent in our parish— musical talent— whom
we believe, with proper direction, will find their outlet
either in the ministry of music in the churches, in education,
or in some other very helpful creative avenues of expression.
We have a committee— we call it, humorously, our "Gestapo"—
that watch my youth in the junior choirs, junior high choirs,
and the high school choir to discover those who have the
qualities of musicianship— that is a native endowment, that
might promise success if it were properly encouraged. I
think, however, the last ten to fifteen years have seen
tremendous strides in both of these directions— in the faith
we have in music and in the availability of the educational
process to realize this faith. The very fact that we have
a "CCG"— Choral Conductors Guild— here; the very fact that
throughout the nation you begin to see church music depart
ments growing, choral organizations growing, more people
curious about using their talents in music, not as academi
cians, but as creative artists— these are significant. The
growth of the MEMO in this direction is astounding. I was
back for the national choruses in Atlantic City this last
March and I had the occasion to sit on many committees and
hear them talk and dream of the future. It doesn't sound as
it did ten or fifteen years ago. It's marvelous.
McEWEN Now why is this? Why such a revitalization?
HIRT Well, it's a renaissance. I don't know why, but I do know it

exists. Perhaps the reason is that we have become curious.
We have developed a conscience. We've become more sensitive.
I know there are many things in my life I don't do now that
I used to do because, all of a sudden, I have developed a
conscience about them. When we stop to look, and this is
what the academic circles have forced us to do, in our
classroom, in our Music and Worship class, we'll say, "Now,
let's get some bulletins from our various churches and look
over this. Look at thismusic. What about this hymn? Is
this a good hymn? Let'slook at the text. Let's see how it
is made into the words. How is it used to the music? How
was it used in the service? What isthis anthem? Bring a
set of this anthem next time, Frank, and let's look it over
and sing it and see what it's like." As soon as we look to
see what we do, and evaluate it, then we blush with a
conscience, with a humiliation, for what we have done to
offend the art of music. I think throughout the nation, not
only in church music circles but in academic and professional
circles, we have begun to look to see what we are doing and
to re-evaluate what we've done. Then we begin to realize how
we've erred. Our sins have been probably of omission rather
230
than of commission. We really haven't regained this faith

that the Greeks reflect when they speak of the ethos of
music, or the faith that the early church fathers had when
they had to emulate the holy words of liturgy by plainsong.
I believe this conscience probably is the one thing that is
motivating this renaissance.
McEWEN Is this conscience, is this faith related to insight in any

way?
HIRT I think it has to come before insight. The ability to see

into something comes greatly and almost with correlation with
one's curiosity and motivation to see into something. In my
class I don't think of them as being bright or stupid. It's
whatever we can motivate them to want to see and impart to
them the belief that there is a treasure here. In other
words, instil in them faith in this. Only then will they
have true insight into what you are going to say because they
won't have a mind to see it otherwise. I think this rather
intangible thing, rather handy and sometimes misused word
called faith, applies here.
Second Interview
McEVJEN At our last discussion, Dr. Hirt, we had broached the element
of your philosophy with respect to the nature and purpose of
music; in large measure the issue concerning choral music
perhaps more especially. I wonder if, as we commence tonight,
there is anything to speak to along that line? Is there any
addition to what you mentioned the other day? You were
speaking of faith and of the edifying qualities, the power
within music; you referred to the Greek "Doctrine of Ethos."
HIRT You want me to speak more generically, that is, irrespective

of the medium, whether it be choral, instrumental, or a
combination of the two? Well, I expressed this to you in
essence the other day, Doug. I believe that music is like
the prism. It can take the white light of truth and can
refract it into a spectrum of colors, moods, if you will,
ideas, facets that can be accomplished by no other art or no
other means. I keep referring to my devotion to church music.
I believe it is saliently true here, in this very edifice.
What we are trying to do, of course, is refract the truth
that is couched in Scripture into understandable ideas:
understandable units of a dimension that can be assimilated
by the worshipper and can be emotionalized to the point that
it can become a part of their own experience. We haven't
begun, it seems to me, to do this effectively. I suppose if
231
I would labor the point, I would speak of the inefficiency

in the way we are able to react as individuals. We find
ourselves, not just music, operating at 10 per cent
efficiency. As variable to gain this faith in music and in
God, in the vertical so to speak, it finds a breadth and a
horizontal in which we find a greater relationship with our
fellow man. Just as much as American Telephone and Telegraph,
we deal in communications. We are trying to find ways, not
only of reaching people, but of conveying through that
channel something important. We become not conductors in the
musical sense only, but conductors as a conductor of
electricity transmits power— except that we are in the
esoteric field and therefore we are more than passive
channels through which this power flows. We become booster
stations of this creative power. Music to me is the force
that makes this communication possible and not just the
communication but it makes the experiential part of our being
more vivid; it is a catalyst in a sense that brings to life
these things which we feel are true but lack form. They have
no outline to give substance to it and music can do this.
McEWEN Thank you. I think that is an even more vivid extension of

some of the ideas that you began the other day. Do you feel
that these ideas are in any large measure original to your
thinking? Have they evolved through your own experience or
do you feel that any significant part of them was given to
you as a student?
HIRT I suppose that many of these things, in one form or another,

were made available to me in youth but I believe we have to
reach a certain maturation for them to make sense, Doug. I
find this true in my classes. Things that have become clear
to me after years of working in this wonderful profession of
ours, I feel I can share with the youth, but sometimes I
know they will take it down in their books and they will be
very respectful of the statement, but it doesn't really
register with them until years later. Sometimes they will
come back and say, "By gosh, I know what you mean now!" So
when they do reach that point it becomes credible to them
and is something they possess. It is no longer mine— I have
given it to them. In other words, I wonder if we can really
teach conducting. We can aid and abet the process. We can
help our young people experience to the point where they will
be able to come to a knowledge of these things, but when they
do, it has to be when the time is right; so in a sense I
don't know if we teach conducting as much as making it
available to our people and hoping that the maturation
process will eventually take place. Often times you can feel
the threshold beyond which individuals cannot go. Then you
232
find yourself working with those whose threshold seems to be

infinity and then something wonderful happens. But in a
sense, not to wander too far from your original question,
looking at my own life, we used the word eclectic— I suppose
the answer to your question is that these things \vere
available to me but I had to discover them for myself. This
is true of my fourteen year old son. I can tell him things
but I know surely he will have to get "burned" before he
believes. He can believe intellectually but not really make
it a part of his own convictions. X wondered, when I was
writing, to what extent when I came to ideas that I felt were
mine— I wondered if they were mine, or whether they were
something that I heard someone say at one time. Now, I no
longer have a conscience about this because I believe that I
must do what I want my students to do. If it is an idea they
can credibly accept then it is theirs and no longer mine, or
shall I say "ours." I must feel that way, too, because there
is "not too much new under the sun" as the old cliche goes.
But there is much new as it is assimilated from the state of
knowledge into wisdom, as it becomes a part of technique, in
fact, a part of one's own philosophy and belief.
McEWEN How do you think that this view which you hold concerning
music affects your choice of choral literature? How is this
manifested in your choice?
HIRT Well, I probably will answer that differently now than I would
have even a few years ago. I probably would have said a few
years ago that I would select my literature so that it
captured the essence of each period and style. So that in
order to realize— really refract the light of truth about
which I spoke into a true spectrum of ideas, experiences, and
moods, I would have to draw from plainsong, from the
Polyphonic School, the sixteenth century. I would have to
include something from early and late Baroque, perhaps
Buxtehude and Pachelbel, certainly Johann Sebastian. I would
have to include something from the classic school and I would
certainly do as you do, much from Haydn and Mozart. I would
have to add some romanticist; to do some, though perhaps less,
of the great romanticists, Bruckner and Mahler. Certainly
much contemporary music, too, in order to get this whole
spectrum about which I am preaching; but I say I would answer
that a little differently now. I believe now that if we have
really progressed rather than just changed, we have inherited
all the past and it is now part of ours. Rather than simply
to build a program representing styles or periods or
composers, the true essence of our music is to draw from that
which has in it something that is permanent, that can
communicate to people not only ideas, because music is not an
233
instrument for conveying ideas so much as emotions and

attitudes of mind, -which permits the growth of ideas— the
growth of a philosophy. It relates man to man and man to
God. If there is any shorter answer to your question as to
how I select my music now, in relationship to my philosophy,
I wouldn’t know what it is. When we become realistic, out of
our "ivory tower," we realize that we think in terms of its
function. At the university I am concerned that there is a
technical challenge there for the people. It may suggest
repertoire that they can use with their own choirs in
subsequent years; at the church that it functions within the
framework of a realistic service; that it does have something
to say to people who sit in the pews to worship. It isn't
incomprehensible to them, although it might be to me. But I
think this is a lesser thing, the functional aspect of music.
It takes us back a little to our discussion about the last
and penultimate chapters of my book where I had the pedagogue
and the artist. The artist is, I think, the greater part of
the choral conductor, the pedagogue a more practical aspect.
Music is a wonderful thing because it will function on both
of these levels. As we idealize, as we sit here after a day
of facing reality, it is kind of fun to dream a bit about
where we might want to take ourselves and our people through
this arch.
McEWEN Would you say that your present point of view embraces a
composite of your earlier thinking with respect to music which
would represent a number of eras but at the same time what
from these eras will you select; is it not only representatrre
of the style, but its potent quality?
HIRT I think you consider both and I think it's the latter quality
that takes precedence over the former. I am still concerned
that for educational purposes there be several styles
represented in a program. You can almost do that with
contemporary music. Contemporary music like Hindemith is as
analyzable and formal as Baroque music and others, as romantic
as Wagner. There is also polyphonic music in a rather gentle
plainsong-like style as much as the sixteenth century motet.
It is still contemporary music. One doesn't have to go back
into the centuries though there is great treasure there yet
to be discovered and yet to be explored.
McEWEN As you registered a recognition of some change as to how you

would answer this last question, have you also been aware of
a change or growth or a development with respect to your
taste in music literature over the years, that you have been
teaching?
234
HIRT I think so. I believe I have not changed so much as

broadened. Not letting go of the former things but adding to
them. I used to love choral music for its sound, for its
sonority, and I'm a "fall guy" still for getting an experience
out of just the sonority of voices. I probably can find an
emotional experience in just holding a dynamic chord, with
nothing to say musically. Well, this is good and this is badj
because one is able to lose perspective and become so
enamored of the instrument that you are oblivious to what you
are trying to say through it. I know I used to err
considerably more than I do now, Doug, on indulging myself—
on just bathing myself— in choral sonority and selecting
repertoire that would do that.
McEWEN Romanticizing in a way?
HIRT Well, so much music allows for this and some music expects
it. The Russian School is not especially like the Orthodox
music of the later Pre-Soviet composers of church music,
because they gave you a skeleton on which you had to put
flesh and bone aud through which your own blood could flow.
It was not doing violence to music to give it a colorful
sonority and to develop a choir that could do this. In fact
it would be folly for a person to do this with a choir who
couldn't do it. And yet this is such a small part of music,
such a small part of choral music. It is such a temptation,
having a choir as I have here tonight that can do this sort
of thing, to impose this color on musical structure, for its
true beauty precludes this kind of *treatment. I know that I
have changed considerably in my treatment and my selection
of repertoire. Nov; I think I see more quickly what a
specific style of music requires.
McEWEN How does this happen? How has this changed?
HIRT I have to use maturity again but I think this is the thing
we have to grow into as we experience music, don't you?
There is great emotion in music of all styles, but it takes
a bit of experience with it before you realize what makes it
emotional and what gives it its meaning and its raison d'etre.
I think that emotion in music is depicted by its color when
we have but to look into the Baroque period to realize that
it wasn't so much the sonority as it was the fom. There is
beauty in a cathedral as there is beauty in a sunset but it
is caused by different things. As you try to super-impose
one on the other you lose the beauty of the cathedral by
painting it colors. The very thing that makes a sunset
beautiful would defile the cathedral. Understanding the
Baroque style, I seem to love this style more. I begin to
235
realize that, slowly at first, you see only the brick, and
you think, "My, -what a grey piece of stone that is!" And
then you stand back a little further and you see the facade
of the building, but as you get back far enough you begin to
see it in perspective; then you see its true beauty. I
think you begin to grow this way. So many of us see only the
stone. We see things in such a circumscribed manner that we
miss the structure of forai of the cathedral in the Baroque
style. I think we, as immature people, approach Renaissance
music that way. We will approach it first the way we do
romantic music, trying to impose color on it. In this
instance we don't destroy architectural beauty but we deny
the word because the form of piainsong in polyphonic
realizations of it, finds its fonns through the text which it
emulates. To make "ropes" out of the "threads" of line is
again to destroy its beauty. As one grows older and lives
with this literature, one begins to see how it takes
restraint, it takes an insight into the very nature of it to
see why it is beautiful— to see what beauty resides there
that is waiting its discovery and ways to bring it to life.
I don't know how clearly I've said this, Doug. I haven't
tried to say it in these words before. I have felt it
though I haven't verbalized it.
McEWEN Does this exposure involve additional listening and reading?

What gives us this increased perspective? What enables us
to gain the distance at which the picture becomes clear and
more, full?
HIRT Well, I hope that some of us are acquiring this now through
the experiences of those of us who have found it the longer,
harder way. This is the process of our academic learning at
the University. I hope now that the answer to your question
is that these truths will be made clear to people through the
accelerated and more efficient process of teaching. For most
of us who are teaching classes we have never taken, because
they were never taught years ago, we have had to come to this
through years of living with literature, through actually
performing it— not just reading books about it. You know,
today I believe our thinking obsoletes much that is written.
Most books are fairly superficial to the present day mature
musical mind. We are really in this renaissance. -We are
coming to a realization of something that is quite exciting,
going far beyond the thinking of the past, at least the
thinking of the immediate past.
McEWEN Naturally, your discussion interweaves with respect to a

number of the questions that I have and so don't feel the
necessity to go over ground which you have already touched
236
upon, or make reference to an earlier comment, if you wish.

Do you feel that your music philosophy is expressed in the
interpretation of music and in your conducting style as well?
HIRT Much more than by what words I can say now, Doug. Some of
these things defy verbalizing. I think one reveals himself
very much when he conducts. Not by choice of literature only
but by the approach he has to it. His rapport with the
people whom he is working with, his obvious rapport with the
music; speaking of communication, this is an exciting thing
because we are communicating in so many directions. We are
trying to communicate with the composer, through a very
inadequate symbol which is notation. Inadequate really to
convey so we have to recreate as much as we can and faith
fully as we can what we believe he meant, but at the same
time we have to be creators as well as recreators and fill in
the holes and read between the notes, so to speak.
McEWEN Well said. I think that encompasses much and it is perfectly

obvious what you intend. If you would permit me— if I am not
shutting you off here— I would like to be sure to include,
before we must conclude, this question which concerns your
philosophy with respect to the training and responsibility
of public school choral directors.
HIRT Well, a choral conductor is, first of all, a musician and a

pedagogue and even then before that he is a person. He is
not a good choral conductor unless he is excellent in these
other capacities and even as a conductor himself. What is
the difference between a choral conductor and an orchestral
conductor? There is virtually no difference, except as each
accommodates to the uniqueness of his medium. I would like
first of all not only to speak (if we are going to speak in
public school terms) about the choral person— because that
person may be directing the band or orchestra also and
probably has an eighth grade class in compulsory classroom
music which he apprehends every day. I think what we need
here is not a choral person or an instrumental person but
someone who has a zeal to impart to others the thing that he
has found for himself— and that is the art of music. He has
to be a pedagogue indeed and their techniques of teaching he
must know well. But he must have proper values, it seems to
me, which stem not only from the educational process but from
certain personal qualities that are pretty hard to measure.
As I think back on my best teachers, they are not necessarily
the best academicians; they are not necessarily the most
richly endowed musicians; but they have other values. I hope
this is true of those of us in collegiate fields— that our
values become increasingly more objectified and that this ego
237
■which may have motivated us in the beginning and motivates

us still is objectified so that we are looking to live
vicariously through the students we are working with. This
is true, I think, on academic levels of collegiate stature
or else we probably wouldn’t be there. I know I take an
unjustifiable pride in seeing my students go out and
establish for themselves a situation where they can teach
others the thing that I believe and that we have believed
together. I don't think the difference is in kind so much
as in degree, to speak of the high school teacher. There
should be careful control not only of the training of such
people but on their own personal values and the things they
believe about music— the faith they have in music— before
they should be put in a classroom situation. Music has been
desecrated in too many schools by teachers who don't really
believe in it. You don't fool young people; they are too well,
aware of what you really believe about them and about music.
There has been a great marked progress, I think, in this area,
generated by the Music Educators National Conference and
other organizations that bring teachers together, where one
can feed the other and where this idealism is contagious and
where they lift themselves and their objectives. It has been
helped a great deal by the more careful selection by the
colleges before they will accept students in music education,
and I suppose increasingly in the local boards of education
who hire them. Not to labor this point, Doug, but to
summarize it, I think some of those things that determine the
success of a public school music program, be .it choral or
instrumental or both, are rather intangible qualities about
the people who teach; almost immeasurable qualities that some
of these rather silly questionnaires don't plumb at all. I
can think of people who haven't many of the academic
qualifications and certainly aren't credentialized to teach
in school, whom I think would be marvelous in a classroom
situation because they have these values. I think of others
who are technically qualified and are living by the letter of
the law who don't live by the spirit of it.
McEWEN This is why I was concerned with what your thinking might be
about the training of these people. If we look about us and
discover that there are inadequacies, that there are those who
are ill-prepared, whence cometh this ill-preparation and what
may be at the seat of it?
HIRT Let me be just a little more specific. It seems to me I've

been speaking in highly idealistic terms here. I know S.C.,
for instance, has been making tremendous strides. In fact,
it has now a very fine Music Education department because now
they don't believe in just teaching the "techniques" of
238
teaching but the 11content." In other words, too many schools

teach methods of communication but there isn't any real
conviction nor knowledge nor experience with content which
should be communicated through these channels. This is too
often true. You find too many people who have a notebook of
techniques of teaching, but who don't have much to say.
Perhaps it would be better to have someone who has a
tremendous zeal for the thing he is teaching who has never
had any methods classes. I've seen such teachers. I've seen
unfortunate extremes of this, too. In college you don't have
to be credentialized to teach. I hold a credential for all
public school levels but I am not using any of my credentials
now. You're not either because you are on a collegiate level
where these aren't required. Well, this has acknowledged
the fact that the content is more important than the method.
But it can be carried to extremes. I know of teachers in
academic circles at the collegiate level who are terribly
inefficient in communicating what they want to say. It is a
matter of balance, of course. But if it is a matter of
erring on one side or the other it should be on the side of
content, don't you think?
Dr. Hirt's Written Answers to Interview Questions
McEWEN Have you a method for the self-preparation of the conductor

prior to the rehearsal of a piece of music?
HIRT "Gestalt" approach. That is I experience the total effect of

the music and move into analyzing the parts. An estimation
of the rehearsal problems and the time likely to be required
to solve them is a necessary part of the pre-planning.
McEWEN Does a chorus need a kind of literature insight, aside from

technical accuracy, if it is to perform as you would wish?
HIRT Indeed!
McEWEN Of what does such insight consist?
HIRT Previous musical experiences, sensitivity to environment,

sensitivity to music, and other associated factors such as:
conditioning, maturity (chronological, mental, and emotional).
McEWEN How do you impart such insight to your chorus?
HIRT Through verbal imagery and empathy.
239
McEWEN What vocal elements determine the selection of singers for

your choral organizations?
HIRT Native endowment which would include both a musical

sensitivity and a good vocal instrument. Also, I would look
for these acquired elements: technical and experiential.
These would include the ability to read music, a specific
voice quality, and a preference for music majors.
McEWEN Are there any non-musical factors significant to your

evaluation of choral applicants?
HIRT Yes. Maturity, motivating attitudes, intelligence, and

physical characteristics.
McEWEN Do you prefer a particular choral seating arrangement?
HIRT
aT iQ
t* as'
This arrangement is flexible enough to allow for accommodation

to unique musical demands— e.g., balancing "divisi" sections
and chords with widespread and unusual dynamic considerations.
The highest and lowest voice parts are in close proximity and
consequently contribute to better choral intonation.
McEWEN Do you find it effective to encourage the implementation of

choral organization policy through the participation of
student officers or a student board of some sort?
HIRT Yes.
McEWEN Is there a province, related to organizational policy within

which the conductor must assume full responsibility?
HIRT Yes. In the "final analysis" he is completely responsible,

if he is the regularly appointed conductor.
McEWEN Has intercollegiate competition to attract student musicians

affected the number or calibre of students coming to your
department?
HIRT Yes. There is no "contrived" plan for recruiting here. I

have observed no unethical conduct of other recruiting
programs.
240
McEWEN What policies seem to work well for you -with respect to
maintaining good rehearsal attendance?
HIRT Rules are not as effective as "morale" but constitute our

recourse when the latter fails to be sufficiently high.
McEWEN Are choral directors likely to ask a choir to perfoim too

frequently?
HIRT More likely, not frequently enough to motivate the learning

process. The result of excessive performance demands is
likely to be a musical sterility unless the music is
recreated (rediscovered), rather than "repeated" each time
it is performed.
McEWEN What sort of selectivity do you exercise when scheduling

concerts and tours?
HIRT Scholastic standing. Also through re-auditioning of

repertoire to be performed.
McEWEN What are your views concerning the validity of choral

concert tours?
HIRT Infrequent tours can be stimulating and helpful to singers as

they experience changing audiences and auditoriums, etc.
McEWEN Are there elements of choral organization which appear to

contribute favorably to group morale?
HIRT Insignificantly.
McEWEN Does the decision as to who will conduct a performance of

combined choral and orchestral forces constitute a problem
in your music department?
HIRT No.
McEWEN Do you prepare yourself in any way for each choral rehearsal?
HIRT Yes, I arrange the sequence of literature for purposes of

calculated variety and pacing. I determine elements for
special emphasis, arbitrarily but flexibly, and allow for
exigencies, improvisation and special opportunities which
cannot be apprehended.
McEWEN How do you react to the special "choral schools" and their
unique tonal personalities?
241
HIRT They all have the spirit of the essential "Truth" and each
has made a valuable contribution.
McEWEN Are you able to describe the nature of the choral tone which
you consider ideal, or for which you strive?
HIRT No. That is, not apart from a specific composition. The
"choral sound" is inferred from the music.
McEWEN In your opinion, are there significant differences between

choral and instrumental conducting?
HIRT Basically, the "Instrumental Conductor" and the "Choral

Conductor" are indistinguishable. They are musicians first
of all— and conduct music— adapting to the medium of
expression.
McEWEN Have you any special methods for enhancing group response to
your conducting?
HIRT No.
McEWEN What do you believe to be the chief causes of poor choral

intonation?
HIRT Extrinsic factors for the most part voluntarily uncontrollable

by the singer— e.g., acoustics, musical characteristics, time
of day, climate and associational factors. Faulty Vocal
production is another basic factor.
McEWEN What remedies appear to be the most effective when poor

intonation occurs?
HIRT Setting about to correct these extrinsic factors without

depressing the singers by making them feel distressed. As
you may have observed, I purposely say little about
intonation to the singers and almost never refer to "flatting!]
Good intonation is the product of a creative situation, freed
from these "depressants."
McEWEN What are your central considerations when choosing

literature for large choruses?
HIRT Good literature and varied literature. The fact of a large

group does not change my method of selecting in general.
McEWEN Are there primary aims for which you strive when preparing
large choruses?
242
HIRT I prepare large groups as I do small groups with a

consideration to the art, the singer and the listener. With
respect to the effect of chorus size upon method or approach,
I see little distinction and behave as a conductor much the
same with all sizes of choruses.
McEWEN What are the choral weaknesses which you most frequently
observe?
HIRT Confusing the instrument with the music. That is, using
music literature as a vehicle for exploiting the choral
"sound" and for choral virtuosity; confusing areas of
technical concern with interpretation. Don’t our adjudica
tion fonus err in this way, too? "Interpretation" (the Art)
is one of several technical achievements as though it were
no more or less important nor different in degree and kind
from "blend," "balance," etc. Such weaknesses stem from both
an inadequacy of the conductor and from faulty teacher-
training.
McEWEN Could you recommend to the young choral conductor the pursuit
of any particular study or experience which could make a
significant contribution to his musical maturation and
professional growth?
HIRT If this person has the potential, it will manifest itself.

We can only accelerate the process and abet it; making
available to him musical experiences, revealing to him the
wealth of extant literature; raising his horizons by example;
and increasing his faith in himself, in music, and in Man.
243
APPENDIX E
INTERVIEWS WITH HOWARD SWAN
OCCIDENTAL COLLEGE
First Interview, December 27. I960
McEWEN Dr. Swan, where was your collegiate training taken?
SWAN I had my training at Pomona College, but I was not a music

major at that time. I majored in history with a minor in
political science, and I took the equivalent of a minor in
music. It was not my purpose at that time to engage full
time in music. I planned to sing as a church soloist, which
I had done right through college. I had a lot of glee club
experience] enough so that I was able to direct the glee club
at Pomona for a sabbatical year when the director was away.
I had planned to just engage in solo singing and that was
that.
McEWEN You say that you took the equivalent of a minor while you
were there? Is it your feeling that at that time the general
direction of the musical training at Pomona College, did you
consider from either point of view— teacher training or
conservatory? Would either of those categories fit reason
ably?
SWAN I think the conservatory training at Pomona, if one had taken

a major, would have been the equivalent.
McEWEN Was this year in which you assumed conducting responsibili

ties there or any other experience performing or academic at
Pomona College significant to your subsequent development?
SWAN I wish I could say yes, but I don't think I can. I enjoyed
the experience of singing with the glee club at Pomona. It
was considered to be the finest glee club in this area. The
glee club at that time, for instance, was good enough to win
a national championship in the old glee club competitions.
The music department was also considered to be very fine, but
I must say that I do not feel that I received a tremendous
244
challenge from the music experiences that I had at Pomona.

I did not realize that such was the case at the time. I
enjoyed the experience, and some of the class work was good.
The glee club sang beautifully, but I think we were behind
the times, as I think most of the music teaching was at that
time. I don't think that Pomona was any "worse off," if I
can put it that way, than most of the institutions in this
country with a few exceptions— the exceptions you might say
of places like Harvard and Oberlin, but certainly it was
simply that here was a period when the a cappella choir had
not been developed at all. People hardly knew what the name
was, let alone its literature. We really operated in what
I would call a nineteenth century framework at least as far
as repertoire was concerned.
McEWEN Did you have that feeling at all from the academic point of
view?
SWAN The academic point of view was much better. For instance,
I had a good class in harmony. I know I had a good class in
music history, but the applied work was, I don't think, up
to anything that one would get in even a third rate school.
McEWEN Among these academic things that you mentioned, were there
any in music that have made a lasting impression upon you—
something that you retained or which creates an interest even
today?
SWAN Yes, I think that which 1 learned in harmony I know was

valuable to me straight down the line. That which I learned
in a general course in music history and in a specialized
course on Mozart were helpful, although obviously the content
has been added to over the years.
McEWEN The choral concepts as such were not of much significance?
SWAN Only two or three. It so happened that the man in charge

of the glee club was greatly respected and turned out a good
job. His name was Lyman. His insistence upon proper intona
tion has stayed with me. In the second place the way in
which he worked us for an entire semester basically with the
bass section. This was a male glee club, not a mixed group.
That has remained with me because he would insist upon proper
interval concepts, particularly with the lower voices, and
what it did to set up the proper kind of intonation. That
stayed with me, but I'd say that that is about all.
McEWEN May I assume that the choral views which you hold presently
have been pretty much evolved from your own practical
245
experience in the field?
SWAN No, they have been evolved basically by contact with men that
I have met and with whom I have studied after I left college.
McEWEN This concerns your training other than collegiate. Let's

talk a little about that.
SWAN When I graduated from college and came to Los Angeles to

teach a full-time school schedule in high school in the field
of history, I sang at the largest Jewish temple in Los
Angeles. I also sang at one of the largest Presbyterian
churches in Los Angeles. It wasn't long before I made the
acquaintance of John Smallman. John Small.man was the pioneer
in Southern California here in a number of ways. He directed
every musical organization of note. He founded the first
a cappella choir and took them east to Philadelphia. He also
directed the Los Angeles Oratorio Society. He introduced to
this community such works as the Beethoven "Ninth," "The
St. Matthew Passion," Honegger's "King David," and the "B
Minor Mass." These were all "firsts" with groups directed by
him in this community. Fortunately for me, he selected me to
sing in a mixed quarter; I was the tenor, he was the bass.
We called ourselves the Tudor Singers. Immediately I became
acquainted with a type of repertoire I did not know existed—
in other words, a whole series of very fine madrigals. I
think the greatest thing I learned was the beginnings of an
appreciation for Bach. I did not get this at Pomona College
at all. Bach, to me, had just been a dead, stuffy, dry
individual, and Mr. Smallman, frankly, changed it. Then I
began, first out of curiosity and then later because of a
real need for it, to do a lot of work in the summer times
with so-called master teachers. I worked with Smallman both
as a voice coach and as a student in his summer classes which
he taught at the University of Southern California. I worked
several summers with Father Finn. Then six or seven years
after that I was introduced to John Finley Williamson. For
seven or eight years I worked very closely with Dr. Williamson.
There was a period of time when I had unfortunately lost
my voice. It developed later that this was caused by a
paralyzed vocal cord. They could not establish any reason
for it at all. This obviously changed my musical direction
although I had done some conducting before this time. They
found out that I had had some college experience so they gave
me a boys' glee club and a choir in high school. Gradually I
got shifted over into the music area. Then, strangely enough,
. I had been asked to take a church choir in this community.
I don't know why I ever accepted it instead of the easier job
of being a soloist, but I did. Fortunately for me, when I
246
lost my singing voice and most of my speaking voice, this

came in rather fortunate. Dr. Williamson, because of his
insatiable curiosity with any new vocal problem, became very
much interested in my voice. Whatever voice I have today—
speaking voice— he really gave to me. He stopped everything
and we worked summers. I brought him to Occidental and he
gave his summer work here for six years. He took me east
with him one summer for his eastern summer school. I got to
know a great deal about the way he operated and his methods,
etc. Immediately following this was Bob Shaw. Bob had been
a former high school student of mine in history in Eagle Rock
High School. He had lived in this territory for a time and
had gone to Pomona. He had done very much the same thing I
had done— taken over the glee club. He followed me by about
four or five years. When he made his great successes in the
east I invited him to come out here. It was the first lec
turing or first demonstrating he had done. A group of us in
this area formed ourselves together, made up a purse so he
could come, got a choir together for him, and the first work
that he did in directing in this area was on this campus with
this choir. He held a master class here for about ten days.
When Shaw came here, obviously we had a great deal to talk
about. He stayed at my home when he was working herej and
I have, over the years on several occasions, developed
choruses for him or provided choruses for him. We have gone
down to San Diego twice from here when he was directing the
San Diego Symphony in the summer time. He has asked me to
take groups down there. On my last sabbatical I spent
practically all the time with him in New York, following him
up to Potsdam where he conducted some courses for Helen Hos-
mer there. I sent several singers to him. This constituted
most of my studying. And then there have been foimal things
that I have gone back to get. Through Bob, of course, I
learned to know Julius Herford. I was responsible for
introducing Julius to Williamson so that he is now on the
staff at Westminster. I have attended Julius’s things when
he has come out here to U.C.L.A. and U.S.C. He has been a
guest in my home and he has lectured to my church choirs.
This is the kind of thing that I have had to do. Sometimes
I have felt it has always been my luck to have to get a job
and then go back and train for it. In addition, the reason
I basically came to Occidental was to direct public events.
I found myself eventually in a public relations capacity
where I was working with the president on financing, working
with the alumni office, having to keep books and make speeches
for groups, and promoting ticket sales. When I went back for
my M.A., it was in psychology.
McEWEN Where did you take that?
247
SWAN At Claremont. This was because during the middle 30’s when
I was still at the high school, I was thrown into a progres
sive school; and we were teaching a lot of "fly-by-night"
courses. I wanted to find out what this so-called "Gestalt"
psychology was. I went back and took a master’s with Perkins
and wrote my thesis in the general area of fatigue in the
choral rehearsal. This is a long answer, but this is where
most of my choral training has come from. Fortunately, there
have been these four or five men who have been wonderful
teachers, in addition to being fine practical representatives
of the art. I have been thrown very close to them. If you
have an imagination and if you are willing enough to recog
nize in yourself what you have to have, why then you put
these things together.
McEWEN You would consider the influence of these men as being pretty
fundamental to the development of the ideas to which you have
been able to add through imagination, ingenuity, and the
adjustment to your personal circumstance here. I hope that
in the future we may be able to get to a discussion of Dr.
Williamson and Robert Shaw as they have affected you. Could
you give me a quick resume of where and for how long you have
taught; at what levels and under what circumstances? You
mentioned the high school.
SWAN I came out of college in 1929 and taught a straight history

program for two years at Eagle Rock High School. The third
year I took a boys’ glee club and the fourth year I began an
a cappella choir. The fifth year there were two a cappella
choirs, and then the beginning of this progressive work.
They took me out of history entirely. In the meantime,
along with that, I had directed for three years a University
Glee Club of Los Angeles which was composed of graduates of
college glee clubs.
McEWEN Was it a municipally sponsored group?
SWAN No, just a group of men very much like the University Glee
Club of New York— men who wanted to continue their singing.
It was a group of thirty-five or forty men. I stayed with
them three or four years, something like that. I came to
Occidental part-time in 1934• I came over to direct the
glee clubs and that was all. I still kept my high school
program. In 1937 I moved over here full time. As far as
church work was concerned, I was soloist at Wilshire Boulevard
Temple from 1929 to 1933» soloist at the Hollywood Methodist
Church from 1929 to 1930, and then in the Immanuel Presby
terian Church from 1930 to 1933. I began directing at the
Highland Park Presbyterian Church from 1933 to 1940. In 1940
248
I went to the Pasadena Presbyterian Church from which I have

just retired.
McEWEN Has your teaching experience included any content or music

education courses in addition to choral activities?
SWAN No, it really hasn't. I have taught a basic conducting

course which, as you probably know, is a requirement in this
state for the teaching credential. The people have to have
a course in choral conducting. In my basic choral course
they take that.
McEWEN As you look back on any of these shifts in position, could

you single out any basic thought or frame of mind which
caused you to make a shift from one to another? What was it
that prompted you to do so?
SWAN As I shifted from the high school to the college work part of
the reason was I wanted to work with people who were a little
more mature. However, I am sure (and I don't think this is a
rationalization, because it certainly runs through my entire
choral philosophy and it has been strengthened by some of the
men with whom I have come in contact) I am a strong believer
in what choral music and in what singing of any kind can do
for individuals. I think that if a music program is run
properly, you have the opportunity not only to become very
close to young people, but also to influence them in numerous
ways, all of which relate to their own philosophy of life.
This doesn't mean that I make every voice lesson a sermon,
but it does mean that over the years I have had the opportu
nity and privilege of counseling individually with literally
thousands of people. I think that you get that, in great
measure, in voice teaching. I have done a lot of that. You
get it also through choral experience if it means that kind
of experience to you, and it does to me.
McEWEN This is excellent and precisely one of the fundamental

elements and reasons for this kind of study. You have
broached the idea and I would be interested if you would
speak to this matter of your philosophy as to the nature or
purpose of music or choral music as you see it. How can this
function? Why do we have it?
SWAN I could talk for a long, long time on this. In the first
place, thinking in terns now of a college situation, you
could adapt it to almost any situation, but thinking in terms
of a college program: your young people, in the first place,
have to learn what it is to get along with each other. Your
prima donnas have to learn to sublimate their own desires and
249
own interests, their ideas that perhaps they come into this
place having been quite a soloist— something like that in
high school— they can't do that in this situation. Then
secondly, and just as important— these are not stated in
terms of their relative importance at all— these young people
learn the joy of working with each other. This is quite
aside from the content of the music. I have the feeling that
in a well-run college program they learn the actual personal
ity, the actual nature of the person with whom they are
singing. I have so often said that— particularly it is true
on our glee club tours— you can't pull a shade down over your
eyes, your face, your personality. It is impossible to live
together in a bus for ten days, fourteen days, however long
the trip may be, without talking. You find out how Mary
Jones or Bob Smith are put together, what their aspirations,
their ideals, their ideas may be. These youngsters are
taught as adolescents that the nice and proper thing to do
is always to cover up their emotions. Never be a person.
You can't be a musician and do that. You can't express
musically and be that kind of a person. Furthermore, and
this is something perhaps a little different, as you say you
have to give expression to the emotion that is within you.
In my point of view, to simply sing properly and correctly;
to cross the "T's" and dot the "I's"; to make the proper
kind of attack and a proper kind of release, doesn't make
music. If you are really going to make music and move
people, the technical things have to be right, but there has
to be something of you as a person in that which you project.
To make music come alive there has to be this kind of thing.
The great musicians, the truly great musicians, that I have
known, have had this ability either to express from them
selves this way, or they have had this ability to pull it
out of other people— to bring their personalities to the
fore— to make sound be a living, vital, meaningful thing so
that it carries great ideas, great emotional ideas. This is
what music is all about. Now, if you put all this together
and you put it into a framework of a vital social kind of
program— by social I don't just mean the scheduled parties
and so forth— if it is a social kind of contact, then you
have something that, I think, really contributes to the
development of the individual. The shy person becomes a
person who is more sure of himself. The person who is
artificially aggressive learns how to curb this. I don't
think this is completely idealistic. I have seen this happen
too many times. I had the opportunity, for instance, to keep
one girl from committing suicide. I pulled ,he gun away from
her. I have been able, without preaching, to inculcate not
only my social philosophy but also my religious philosophy.
In other words, it is the concern for the other person— the
250
"love thy neighbor," if you please— carried into everyday

■work. This thing that is taking place this morning "when
these young people are coining back from all over the country
and giving up a week of their time— our tour is not a great
thing. They go away for ten days and this year they are just
going to tour California, but the basic reason they are com
ing back to practice— a lot are coming back who are not even
going on the tour— is simply because they enjoy it. They
want to come back because they enjoy the rehearsals. This
particular time is a very splendid time for them and for me
because they are not under any other kind of pressures, .
particularly academic. You can move a rehearsal as rapidly
or as slowly as you wish. You have time to do a little more
commenting upon the things as you go along. These are some
of the things that I think can happen through music.
McEWEN Would it be fair to assume that if we are to call upon the

best things which a person may have within him, that it
takes a certain inherent "intelligence" in the music itself
if this is to be really caught up?
SWAN I think that is definitely true. The kind of thing I am

describing is not aroused by a person who simply loves people
or has perhaps a kind of demagogic approach. In other words,
he knows within himself that he can raise or lower levels of
enthusiasm. This is the "cheerleader" approach to singing.
There has to be some foundation behind it. If the man
doesn't learn it himself, the young people will teach him
quickly enough in one way or another because they are too
eager, too smart, too intelligent. You don't get by just on
the basis of "Come on! Let's give it the old college try."
That doesn't go at all.
McEWEN How does this philosophy affect your choice of choral

literature when you know what it can do, what you want it to
do? How does this affect the way you choose your music?
SWAN I realize that here I perhaps would not be in agreement or

perhaps I should say that not all choral men would be in
agreement with me. I do not choose music only because it is
a composition of a particular master or because it belongs to
a particular period. Part of this is by circumstance. Part
of this, at the present time in my own development, is by
direct choice. Let me explain a little bit more what I mean.
I think, in the first place, you have to take people where
they are. To say that as bluntly as I can, I would say that
any person who went down on Fifth and San Pedro in Los
Angeles with a crowd of drifters and worked for the Salvation
Army and tried to throw Bach at them would be absolutely
251
ridiculous. I think that one has to bear in mind the

performer and one has to bear in mind the listener in
choosing a repertoire. At least this is my philosophy. Many
years ago we began here with our campus concert, the idea of
trying to enlist the college in enthusiastic listening to our
program. And so we divided our concert program into two
halves. In the first half everything we considered absolutely
tops would go into this program. In the second half for
fifteen years or so this was a dramatized kind of thing that
we wrote for ourselves and which basically consisted of music,
I would say— to generalize— of a folk nature. In the last
ten years, most of this so-called second half has been_
published materials. We have done such things as "Down in
the Valley," "Amelia Goes to the Ball," and "The Devil and
Daniel Webster." When we could find one-act things, we did
them in that particular way. This has meant for us on this
college campus that the person who just didn't like music at
all, or thought he didn't, would come for the first half in
order to listen to the second. Those who came for the first
half— I don't think we lost any of them— at least, they
suffered through the second. Last year, for example, we did
the Gershwin "Of Thee I Sing." We just took the show and cut
it down to am hour and fifteen minutes. Because of the
election we did it in that way. This is the way in which our
choice of repertoire has gone. I will not say I have not had
misgivings at times about this. I have talien these misgivings
to a number of my friends, because this affects what we do on
tour; although we don't dramatize the second half, we lighten
it up. I have talked about it with Roger; I have talked
about it with Bob Shaw; I have talked about it with Julius
Herford and with Charles Hirt; and amazingly, each time,
there has been the reaction: "Look, you have something
special that you developed as a kind of functional thing at
the beginning of things." (I came into this situation when
there was a campus concert here, when there were separate
glee clubs, when they did not work with each other originally.)
They said, "Don't change it. It is too good. Don't change
it." So we haven't. It means that we give our home concert
for three nights. We sell every seat in the auditorium.
This has been true for years. It means that from the very
practical side we run our own glee club, our own finances.
We pay for our tours in this particular way and we are the
wealthiest student body organization on campus. We have
about $6,000 in U. S. Bonds and some day we will take a big
trip. From the standpoint of the practical, that is the way
it has gone. I have been interested in developing a program
that had just as much variety and color as it could have.
Because we still have some rehearsals with the men alone and
the women alone, it means that on our tour, instead of it
252
being straight a cappella, sacred program, we do many things

a cappella, some things with accompaniment. That accompani
ment has sometimes been a string quartet or a small ensemble,
or just piano. It means the men sing alone and the women
sing alone. Therefore, we develop, we feel, whether right
or not, a program that has a little more variety as far as
color in it is concerned. My point of view has been that if
you go to folk music and if you go to show music it is a
matter of how good it is in its field. I know we have never
done anything that was "trashy," or a poor arrangement, or
"corny"— to use an overworked term— but we do use some
Loemer and Lowe occasionally and some Rodgers and Hammer-
stein occasionally. This has meant that all groups of the
college like to hear the glee club sing. It means that in
the course of a year we would sing "Jesu Meine Freude" (and
this has happened; this is not figuratively speaking), the
Vivaldi "Gloria," Bloch's "Sacred Service," and will then
turn around and do a "pops" concert in the same year. Every
second year we will do a "pops" concert when we just let down
our hair completely. This is not our regular campus concert,
but we will just try to convince people that we aren't "long
hair." This, basically, has been my philosophy. Now I don't
say that there is not some objection to this. You do some of
this lighter stuff and some of your music majors will wrinkle
up their noses at it. This is a place for good education, I
feel, because I will say to them, "All right, you have a
perfect right to your own ideas, standards, what you want in
the program, and so forth; but if you are going to sing with
this group, you are going to have to come along with the
group and not all of the things which we sing will you like."
I will turn right around to the person who is a non-major who
perhaps doesn't know as much about music who maybe loves the
simpler thing and who says, "This is my meat; I don't under
stand this Mozart over here." "This," I will say to him,
"you will have to believe, Bill, is a great piece of music,"
and "We are going to find out why it is great and maybe even
when we get through you won't know all of the reasons why it
is great and you may not love it quite as much as some of the
other music, but believe me if you stay with this music long
enough you will love it." This is the way the thing has to
work. Now this is not the way lots of people run choirs and
I am not saying that this way is right, but this is what we
happen to hold to around here. The one place I have to
watch is that the balance is right and they understand that
as far as simply comparing music, there is no question in my
mind as to which is the best kind of music and why we do a
certain kind of music here, and why we do it there. I don't
think that there is any difficulty about that.
253
Second Interview, December 28, I960
McEWEN Dr. Swan, yesterday as we concluded, we were speaking of some

ideas philosophic; and I believe that we closed with a
discussion about the effect which your music philosophy has
on your selection of choral literature. Perhaps we had
touched on that.
SWAN Well, I may be repeating myself* somewhat. I spoke about the

fact that I try to bear the audience in mind as well,, as the
performer; and that in thinking of the performer, I try to
bear in mind that this is not a professional group, that
there are young people in the chorus with all kinds of
appreciations and tastes. While my job is to build those,
and we try to do that as a result of the literature which is
given to them, I want them all to have a certain kind of
enjoyment out of what they do.
McEWEN Yesterday you made quite a point of emphasizing the social

benefits which you feel that music participation holds for
your students. Do you have any other thought with respect to
the nature or the purpose of music as an entity, aside from
that social consideration which you feel is so important?
Does it exist for any other reason in your mind?
SWAN Well, I would certainly hope that there would be some other
by-products. In the first place, I think all of us in school
work are concerned that there isn't more of a carry-over into
musical life after they leave college. There ought to be
more of our people singing in recreational groups, avocational
groups, semi-professional groups, and church groups. Unfor
tunately, this does not happen. I think that a part of the
failure is because of the character of the leadership,
perhaps, that they don't get afterwards. But if there is
this love for music and the desire to sing, more of our
people ought to want to continue that sort of experience.
I also feel this about the old question of the support of
professional music in this country— I am speaking now of the
listening audience. Many of our people ought to go out into
the listening audience; many of our people ought to become
members, for instance, of boards of community choruses and
orchestras and church music committees. There ought to be a
better appreciation and understanding. I think the tremendous
sales in records that we are enjoying at the present time are
due in part, obviously, to the interest in new forms and
reproduction— interest in hi-fi and stereo, etc.— but that
isn't all of it. A lot of it is because these people want to
have things in their own record library that they used to
sing. I am sorry that at the present time they aren't
254
continuing to produce material themselves. Now, I think this

is a responsibility that we have. I think this is something
that ought to come out of a choral situation. I think it is
growing. I think it is better than it used to be, but I
don't think that it is anywhere near what it ought to be.
This is a job that all of us have in working with people in
college choruses.
McEWEN I will be getting just a little bit ahead of myself with

respect to some of the topics I would like to bring up, but
would you consider that this failure for active singers
during their college days to be active chorally after their
college days is related to any extent to a failure to provide
these singers with enough in the way of "tools"; so that they
have developed a degree of independence sufficient to give
them this drive in the absence of exciting leadership? That
is, do they have this drive which is sufficient to create or
to establish a situation in which they could sing after their
college days?
SWAN This is a difficult question to generalize about. I think .

that we still have a proposition in any college where music
is caught up in the total environment. It becomes a part of
the very precious kind of experience for the student. Music
is a part of it; participation in a choral unit is part of it.
All of a sudden, not long after college life, he is thrown
into a situation where he doesn't have the same kind of
environment at all. In other words, the man and woman, they
have their family, their own social groups, a different kind
of community, etc. Then you take away from them the partici
pation with persons of their own age and then you take away
a director or a leader whom they respected, admired, perhaps
even loved. Now you are asking, is it possible to create
such a love for music itself that they will go ahead on their
own "steam" and still want to sing music regardless of the
environmental situation in which they find themselves—
regardless of the leadership. Now, some will, but whether it
is possible to give that to everybody or not, I don't know.
This would depend in part on how successful the individual
person is in expressing himself. This will require a certain
amount of musicianship. In other words, he is not going to
go ahead if he doesn't sight read pretty well; he is not
going to go ahead if he doesn't use his own voice pretty well.
I would certainly say that in my situation and with respect
to the philosophy I hold as far as the development of the
voice is concerned and the Individual expression through
voice, that my people would be more successful than people in
other choral situations because they are constantly told— and
I think that we try to back it up— that we are interested in
255
the development as far as possible of their own individual

voices. Some of this is supported by individual vocal study
and there is a high percentage of our people, whether major
or non-major, in our groups who study individual voice. Now
obviously, if they go out a little more confident of their
own individual instrument, they’re going to be more willing
to push in a new musical situation.
McEWEN This is what I was getting at. I was wondering in tenns of

your experience and observations, if you feel that this job
generally is being accomplished or whether there seems to be
a reliance upon a particular "kind" of personality in leader
ship to galvanize the students into action; that without that
peculiar kind of leadership they haven't been given tools?
SWAN I don't think you can answer it directly. I think that

people, regardless of vocal training, are always going to
respond. Particularly in the volunteer situation it takes a
certain kind of leadership, and by a certain kind, I don’t
mean that they will always seek f-or somebody who was exactly
like the person with whom they worked before. I think it
takes a certain kind of leadership to galvanize this; but, on
the other hand, I could mention a number of people— and I
mean a number in the hundreds— who have successfully gone on
into a kind of amateur music making. On the other hand,
there are many who don’t. But I would say, all other things
being equal, I think with the kind of work which is given
here and with the kind of repertoire which they sing and with
the kind of vocal philosophy that they have, there is more
opportunity for them to go ahead under this system, if I can
call it that, than perhaps under the others. Now for
instance, if they were going to participate in a choral
situation where the entire program— for instance in a year—
consisted of all sacred music, all a cappella music, music
arranged for five and six parts where the emphasis was
tremendously on blend— becoming just one cog in a choral
unit— where this was thrown at them for a period of four
years, where it was the plea, and urgency on their part to
become just a part of a chorus, where the individual was
sublimated, where his expressive ideas were- sublimated. I
just don’t see how that kind of thing would produce the kind
of independence that you want from a singer. Now that is
about the best way I can say it.
McEWEN Well, I think that it is a very good way. This is what we

were after. Have you realized, in your own experience,
change or growth with respect to your taste in music
literature?
256
SWAM Oh, definitely. I should say so. I think this is illustrated

the best, perhaps, by the fact that I find myself having to
search harder each year for kinds of repertoire that I want
to do. Now, I know a part of this is a certain kind of pride
— I hope that it isn't a false pride— in putting on my
program a few things -which I think either have not been done
by other people or have not been done very much. I think
probably I am not laboring under the delusions that this is
so, because I have so many people ask me about my repertoire
for a given year. Now, for instance, this year I wanted to
do an antiphonal double chorus. I could find nothing that
I wanted, so I sent for Carl Parrish's second book (of course
none of those things are under copyright any more) and spent
a good many hours copying Hassler's "Laudate Dominum" from
that book. I have sent to Rome, because I couldn't get them
in this country, for the two volumes of the Gabrieli works
which I will do in some future years. I sent off to Italy—
we could not get them in this country— for some mountain
songs for my men, published by Ricordi, and we have to wait
a while for that.
Every man, every great musician with whom I have come in
contact has expanded my own horizons. Aside from that,
another very strong point with me is the fact that usually
I don't wish to repeat numbers the second year. I can't do
that very well no matter how wonderful the music may be. For
me, I have exhausted its expressive purposes in the year in
which we do it. This does not mean that I have learned
everything about the score. It means that since I go to the
score not only for its technical resources but for its
emotional impact, I have, for the time being, gotten every
thing I possibly can from that score; and even with the great
scores, I put them aside for a while— a year or two— before
I repeat them.
McEWEN Now we have touched on two things. One concerns the elements
which you consider significant to your change or to your
growth in musical taste; and second, then, is to what extent
do you repeat literature, not necessarily in successive
years, but out of consideration for the student, perhaps? Do
you find yourself re-doing something again in the future?
SWAN The second one first. I re-do numbers, but probably as

rarely as any man I know, and only the great pieces of litera
ture or some little "fillers" which have something unique or
peculiarly good about them that we can learn very quickly and
have to put in a program here and there.
McEWEN Then, as to your expanded tastes in literature, you mentioned

those men with whom you have come in contact. Are there any
257
other sources which you recall readily?
SWAN Well, I do quite a bit of reading— as much as I possibly can.

Then, of course, I read catalogues. I have two whole files
of catalogues. There are certain ones which I follow
assiduously, and certain composers who especially interest
me. We are in a peculiar situation in this country, and
particularly out here in the West, where we just can't get
hold of some scores we know we would like to do. As scores
are reprinted, I want to look at them. Three or four years
ago, we had a Mozart year. Well, there were a number of
things that have not been in print for years and years and
years— had never been in print in this country. You couldn't
get them. Well, Mozart is a pretty good composer. We wanted
to see those things, you see. In other words, there are
certain composers whom you rely upon. This does not mean
that everything they write is equally good, but you certainly
want to see those things as far as the names are concerned.
Then there are certain composers, perhaps a contemporary
composer, and something comes out and for some reason you do
it. You say, "This is a new kind of thing. This is good.
This fellow has a new slant on music.", or, "He writes
interestingly with a different kind of flair." The next time
he puts something out, you want to see it. Maybe you do it;
and maybe you don't. That kind of thing.
McEWEN Well, we will be getting to this matter of literature in

just a minute. Would you say that the way you feel about
music, perhaps philosophically as we have spoken of it here,
affects your conducting style?
SWAN I am sure that this is time. There is no question about it.

I have gone through several phases of this; and I have
several things to say about it. As I study a score, both in
its musical application and in its text— let us assume that
perhaps it is the first time I am looking at a new score and
maybe I haven't even purchased it— as most conductors can, I
will sense in that score how it will sound— whether the sound
fits my chorus. But whether I purchased it or not, whether
I finally put it into rehearsal and eventually into perform
ance, will also depend upon whether I can see if this kind of
music is vital enough— and by vital I do not necessarily mean
what is commonly known as the best kind of music— but whether
there is a thread of communication in it, whether seemingly
the composer has had a real idea, a fresh idea that he wishes
to get across to a listener. If it is there, then I will
sense that. I will feel it myself, and in the feeling of it
myself, I will sense how singers ought to feel it. If these
factors are present, then everything, as one gets beyond the
258
sheer mechanics of the music itself, then everything you do

in a rehearsal: what you say, the analogies you make, all
this will be definitely directed toward the so-called
"interpretation" of the music. In this respect, I guess I
am a sensitive, imaginative (saying it immodestly) kind of
director. I am simply repeating to you what my choral
singers say to me. It is not only my gesture, it is not only
what I say; I guess it is the way that I look. Sometimes,
for instance, when I am displeased with the way a particular
concert or a particular piece is going, my youngsters tell
me that they simply have to give up, because though I try to
hide that, my face is so sensitive that I show them that this
is true. Without the spark which they have to give to me and
I have to give to them, the music just doesn't get "made."
It becomes for them a very mechanical thing. It is like a
football team trying to play the last five minutes of the
game with a score of 50-0 against them. This to me is the
exciting part about musical interpretation and what I have to
do with it.
Now one other point that I would like to make very clear.
The Westminster point of view, as represented by Dr. William
son, of course, has been that in every piece of music there
is a certain kind of emotion which he used to at least try to
catalogue. He taught conducting in this particular way. In
other words, he would try to have the people in his classes
actually simulate a type of emotion. It was really, in part,
a class in acting. Therefore, the whole emphasis in the
Williamson conducting class was never upon any hand gesture.
He would make us work without the use of hands— just face.
Then he would ask us to take a hymn or some other simple
piece of music and simulate "this" emotion, and then "this"
one, and then that one. Well, this became to me a very
artificial kind of thing. But he went one step farther than
that. He would say, "You cannot literally feel the emotion
at the time of performance. What has to happen is that you
as a conductor must read and feel the particular emotion,
feeling, or mood as the composfer originally set it down in
this piece of music. Then dry’yourself out, so to speak, of
emotion. You pass it on to the chorus. They have this
sensation, but as they sing it to an audience, if they are
completely enveloped with that emotion just as the conductor
is completely enveloped with the emotion, then they will lose
control of themselves and this you never want to happen."
Therefore, he postulated the very interesting bit of philoso
phy that you play-act. You make the audience feel, and the
conductor makes the performer feel to a certain extent, as
though he, the conductor, as though they, the performers,
feel the emotion when really they do not. A part of this in
my experience is true, but a great deal of it is not. In
259
other words, I can successfully, in a performance and in a

rehearsal, do just as I think the fine public speaker can do:
I can "twist" my people emotionally in my performance. I can
do that if I want to. In my earlier days as a conductor I
thought that the only way to do that was to get myself
terribly excited and emotionally involved; and I found out,
just as Robert Shaw found out, that if you do too much of
this, it is physically quite devastating to the conductor.
He can just "knock himself out," and I am not speaking
necessarily of something which is rhythmically wild and
vigorous, etc. This is a matter of intensity. I find out
now that I can get the chorus to sing the way I want it to
emotionally without involving myself too much, but yet know
at the same time that what is bad for me emotionally I must
watch because it can be very bad for the chorus. Now this
is a very long answer to your question, but this happens to
be one of the areas of choral production and technique in
which I am very much interested.
McEWEN Brevity is not my major concern actually, but this does lead,
I think, beautifully, into something else that is closely
related. Do you recall a specific performance in which your
group reacted or reached an especially high level of this
aesthetic experience or power of communication?
SWAN I have seen it happen with other choruses; and I have seen
it happen with my own.
McEWEN What contributes to this? What makes it possible?
SWAN If we knew the answer to this, if we knew how we could "turn

the water on at the sink any time we wanted to," we would
have the answer, wouldn't we? I saw people at that concert
I referred to yesterday that Shaw gave out here— his first
concert here. Each one of the twenty conductors who were
here gave him two singers, the best singers they could, just
a volunteer group like that. People just went mad. They
literally just went mad in the audience. I saw Anthony
noil ins, who is now conducting in England, do the same thing
with a Mozart concert over here in our auditorium. This was
an instrumental concert. I saw people stand on seats— now
these were Americans— and scream and throw their aims around
each other. Of course, the time it happened to me— it has
happened several times— two years ago last March, we were
asked to sing for the Music Educators National Conference
meeting in Los Angeles. It>was a Sunday morning; it was the
poorest spot from the standpoint of a performing group
because it was not in an auditorium; it was after a breakfast
with, its usual noise and clatter of dishes, waiters, and what
260
have you. It was in the Biltmore Ballroom downtown. Now,

you ask me what happened. I don't know. I know this: we—
the people who participated and the people who listened, but
particularly those of us who performed because we were very
interested in the reaction— have talked it over hundreds of
times. I don't know what happened. There were, I suppose,
three or four hundred people there that had their breakfast.
They were basically supervisors; the big wigs were there
because they wanted to hear Stanley Chappel from Washington.
He is a good speaker and they came to hear him. We were
somewhat incidental. But it so happened that we started with
a three-choir number, the "Magnificat" of Gabrieli's. The
old Biltmore Ballroom has these hard walls, high celling, and
has little choir lofts— not constructed for that purpose, but
just little grilled-box affairs— so that I could put one
chorus up at the front, one chorus at the side, and one
chorus at the back. Well, we started on the Gabrieli "Mag
nificat" and I was not aware that the chorus was singing very
well. We were naturally excited because of the occasion.
There were times that we had sung better. Well, as we
finished, I was aware about three pages from the end that
they were listening. You know the effect you get when people
are listening with such an intensity that it seems almost
over-powering. I was aware of that about three pages from
the end of the number. Then out came this applause and we
could not stop them. They started to shout and then we went
on with the rest of the program (about twenty minutes). They
were just beside themselves. I have never seen anything like
this. They wouldn't stop. They stood to their feet at the
end and they screamed— all these august music supervisors.
I have never seen anything like it. To make a long story
short, I have talked to people who said (a half dozen of
them), "I didn't want to talk with anybody after that per
formance. I left the breakfast and went to my room. I just
wanted to be by myself." We have read articles which have
been published in Eastern music magazines. I run into people
all of the time who had a third cousin whose uncle was there.
That kind of thing. It was passed on. I have had letters,
literally, from all over the world. Now you ask me "why".
I don't know. I think a part of it was the place, the
acoustics, the fact that they were all feeling good after the
breakfast; a part of it was the way in which they were caught
by the almost stereophonic effect of the first number. This
was a part of it, I am sure. I do know this, that you do not
achieve this unless the technical aspects of music are out of
the way first. This I know. When you say you can pull
emotion out of a number by sloppy singing, this is ridiculous
because I know you can't. The technical thing has to be
there. With some styles of music it is the technical thing
261
itself which starts this. As to how you do this every time,

I don't know. And when it happens, it is just a combination
of circumstances. The audience is important, there is no
question about it.
McEWEN I was curious in your observation here that you felt that
the chorus was singing well, but that you were not "thunder
struck" by its delivery and yet that its effect upon the
audience was as you describe it.
SWAN Many times, sir, this does not happen. I mean, many times
you have the feeling that you are up on "cloud nine" and so
is your chorus and you talk to somebody in the audience and
they say, "Well, it was very nice, but not particularly
outstanding." And there will be other times when people meet
you and say, "This was tremendous!" And you didn't have any
idea that it was particularly good.
McEWEN I am glad too for your point that there are certain essential
disciplines involved with the technical elements. This
"freedom through discipline," if you please. Do you exercise
much of a discriminatory selection when it comes to choosing
a place or circumstance for a concert? Does this tie in with
your philosophy of what to do here or what your music is for?
SWAN Well, we do use discrimination. In other words, we do not

accept every invitation which is given to us and, in part,
the repertoire makes some difference. For instance, we will
take maybe two service club concerts a year, because those
fellows want, basically, entertainment music. We usually
make those the two largest service clubs in this area. It is
worth while for us and it is worth while for the college to
go down to the Los Angeles Rotary Club at the Statler where
you have 500 men and we will always put two or three good
numbers on the program and they have to sit there and take
it. And our reputation is such now that they will. But I
don't try to flaunt "long-hair" music in their faces when we
do this. We will do this same thing with the Pasadena Rotary
Club; but basically now we are able to discriminate. We turn
down most day-time concerts and we turn down most night
concerts unless they can be either a week night concert where
we can give our total formal program, or a Sunday night
program where we can give our complete sacred program. In
other words, I don't like to work on a repertoire all year
and then just do it on a tour plus our campus concerts. I
want some other times to give that. So this is definitely
true.
McEWEN We will touch upon this last matter a little later on. To
262
conclude this section on your philosophy, -what should we be

training public school choral people to do?
SWAN It seems to me that every conductor, whether in church or

school work, has to be in part this kind of person— not in
the same degree. You can't. I used to think that every
choral conductor that you taught, in order to be successful,
had to be "launched from the mold," so to speak. I have
certainly given up on that idea. But I am sure that every
conductor, to a certain extent, has to be able to organize
well. I think that too often we lose sight of the fact that
this is a day and age when people, even though they have more
leisure time, are very jealous of that time. There are so
many other things that they want to do. This is true even
with people in school work. And too often we do not realize
that Johnny could be over in the print shop or he could be
taking another elective, or he could be on the stage, or he
could be in journalism, or he could be in something else.
And our people in churches could be doing a hundred things.
We take their time. Now what are we going to do with it?
And how do we organize it so that we don't waste time? I
think that is one thing that a person has to have and has to
learn to a certain extent. "How do I organize my people's
time?" This means careful planning of rehearsals. It means
all the various little things that go on in rehearsals, even
to how you use your music. This is one thing. I think in
the second place obviously, the better trained the choral
conductor is in the various musical attributes, the better,
the farther he is going to get along the way, the more his
people are going to respect him.
McEWEN You would respect his knowledge of styles and composers

through literature, you would say?
SWAN Literature, history, certain theoretical background. If a

man is acquainted with some of the principles of harmony, he
is going to make it— -even from the standpoint of sight
reading. His group is going to move along a lot faster than
if he doesn't know anything about it. And then in the third
place, if I were to pick out one area of technique that I
feel public school people don't know enough about, it is this
business of tone. I don't think they are enough concerned
about it. They don't know that if you put together a certain
group of ingredients or techniques, so to speak, you are
going to get a certain result. They copy and they will use
what they have been taught in college or they will use the
tricks that the latest visiting "fireman" has brought them
from outside the state or something. This is all right if
they know what they are doing, but too often they don't.
263
Then finally, and of course this is the most difficult

thing of all, what is it that makes a choral conductor really
an artist? What is it that sets him up above the ordinary
run? This is what we would want all of our young choral
conductors to be as we teach them. Well, it seems to me as
I have studied the situation that it is compounded really of
two things, maybe three. First of all, his own ability to
hear. I don't think that our young choral conductors train
themselves enough in the ability to hear sounds. In other
words, how many of them whom you know can sit down with
records and a simple score of a string quartet, and get to
the place where they hear what is happening— hearing maybe
two lines first, then three, then four, then six? Such a
person can tell you when someone is out of tune, or when the
pronunciation is bad here, or when they don't hear enough.
And from hearing there has to proceed, I think obviously, the
greatest technique of all and that is the technique of phras
ing. If you don't hear, you can't phrase. This is the
thing, if I may say so, sir, that was attractive to me in
your group— the only time I have heard your groups sing.
Anyhow you had a large group there. You obviously were
working with a third of the college. And you couldn't do
everything you wanted to do with such things as intonation or
tone quality or things like that because you had everybody
and his brother singing in there, but you phrased! Now this
to me, as I go around and listen to choruses, is the place
where immediately I decide whether a director is an artist
or if he isn't. How does he phrase? It isn't the only thing,
but basically it has to be tied in with the ability to listen
— how he hears. For if he doesn't hear, he will not phrase.
You can't copy phrasing. You can learn a lot about it, but
if you don't feel it you can't do it. And then along with
that, the thing that makes the artist, I think, is this thing
called "taste." And that is "taste" in repertoire, "taste"
in expressiveness of music, tastefulness again with which you
use phrasing, the taste with which you meet people and recog
nize another person, even though he may be singing under you.
You simply consider him as another human being. It is this
old business of the dignity of the human being; that he is
not just another "body" that pushes your program along. So,
I would say that these are the things, but the last is the
hardest to teach. It is like teaching composition. How do
you teach a person to compose? This argument will go on
forever. How much do you give him of yourself? How do you
teach him so that he doesn't just copy you; so that he takes
whatever he can get from you and presumably, hopefully, with
his imagination then, he builds and shapes it to use with his
own personality and with his own ability.
264
McEWEN But you would suggest that all of these things are capable of
being developed to a reasonable extent, and therein lies our
responsibility for the training of young choral directors.
Do you consider your curriculum here satisfactory in these?
SWAN No, it is not satisfactory because we*' just don't have enough
time. We sit here as a liberal arts college with a major in
music. This is not a conservatory. We don't give the
Bachelor of Music degree, so we can't give them as much time
as we want to. But we are able to do some things that other
schools are not able to do. Our choral conducting major is
our most popular. One of the things that is unusual here is
that all of our choral conducting majors choose and direct a
complete senior recital with their own choruses. Now this
doesn't happen in very many places but it happens here
because of the fact that their colleagues are willing to
practice with them on Saturday afternoons and Sundays and at
other times. We will have nine of these recitals this year.
McEWEN That is quite an opportunity for them. I hope they realize

that.
SWAN Oh, I think they do.
McEWEN Well, this has been excellent once again.
Third Interview
McEWEN Have you a means of evaluation which serves to indicate those

selections which constitute good choral literature?
SWAN I think that with certain styles of music you have to be sure
that you have a good text. This, I think, is not so necessary
with music of the Polyphonic, Baroque, or Classical periods.
That is a different kind of music. Let me say that with most
kinds of music, if I am picking up a new piece I have never
tried before, and looking it over, I will read the text— par
tially because I think it is the faster thing and partially
because I think it is important. If it isn't a worth-while
text, there is not any point in considering the rest of the
music. I would say that I am basically interested in the
composer doing what he sets out to do. Let's take, for
instance, a contemporary composer who attempts to write in a
polyphonic style. If he doesn't do that with full authority,
if a canon-like structure is not there technically in every
aspect, it's no good. It has to be there technically, it has
to sound well, in addition to looking well on the piece of
paper. I would say that as one gets up into the Romantic
265
period and musical compositions since that time, I am

interested in a new way, so to speak, of expression. Speak
ing again of a contemporary composer who writes in the
Romantic idiom, if he simply uses the old musical cliches
harmonically speaking then I am just not interested in the
music. It has to have something of a little different flavor
— maybe it is new rhythmic approach, maybe it is a new melod
ic approach, certainly a new harmonic approach. It is a
little harder to judge the Classical and Baroque periods,
I think. I would say probably I would be more interested
there, perhaps, in the sound. In Bach or Mozart, you don't
have to question their ability as composers. They have
established that. On the other hand, you can question
whether one composition is as good as another. There is a
lot of dull Bach and a lot of dull Mozart. Now what makes
it that way? To me, it is that way when there is something
rather awkward about the sound as it is made as a result of
the structure of the composition. Some of the Bach which is
a little more dull is so because intervals are awkward or
phrases are awkward or phrases are too long or the contra
puntal writing is muddy from the standpoint of sound, not
from the standpoint of the way that Bach put it together.
The same thing is true of Mozart. You can take some of the
Mozart Masses that just have no sparkle; and they don't
obviously, because he wrote them in too much of a hurry.
They were orchestrated the wrong way. You have got a certain
kind of "heaviness" and "muddiness" which wasn't Mozart at
his best.
McEWEN Would it be fair to say that you are looking for a consis
tency, even an intelligence, of musical expression which
proceeds at a level that is high enough for your taste?
Obviously this will vary with each director, but at least
we can look for consistency and intelligence in music.
Maybe those are reasonable words.
SWAN I certainly think I would agree with that.
McEWEN This compatibility then of text which would stand on its own,
as well as a text which is enhanced harmonically.
SWAN I would agree with that.
McEWEN Have any sources or systems of search for choral literature

proved especially fruitful? You mentioned yesterday a couple
of catalogs which you assiduously read. Have you found any
sources to be particularly productive?
SWAN I suppose I do just about as everybody else does. I stay
266
■with, for instance, the New York Times. At least there I

will have a list of the concerts given; and if some piece
pops up that I don't know anything about, then I get hold of
it and look at it. One thing that has been very helpful to
me are the complete translations that Mr. Drinker has made
of all the Bach things and of all the Brahms things and of
all the Schutz things. At least you have an opportunity
there to acquaint yourself with what exists in the field;
and if there is something in that area that you don't know,
you can get hold of it and look at it. I don't know of any
particular guide that comes out that is as helpful. I
obviously follow through, not only the catalogs, but the
advertisements that come to me from the better publishers.
I am going to pay attention to what Schirmer Music Publishers,
Boosey & Hawks, and some of these other fine firms are doing.
This is why I would pay particular attention to their
catalogs as they come to me each year; and if, for some
reason, they don't get their catalogs to me, I simply send
off for them.
McEWEN You referred earlier to the importance of a knowledge of

composers and of a basic literature— a basic repertoire— and
undoubtedly this comment would apply here, perhaps more from
the standpoint of literature itself and an interest in a
composer or in a given style than from concern for a particu
lar source of literature. What elements do you feel contrib
ute most to a conductor1s insight concerning literature to
be performed?
SWAN I would certainly say that there has to be a knowledge of the

style of the historical period. I think that here again is a
place where young conductors are not very careful either in
their choice of literature or in the way in which they
rehearse it. I don't think you rehearse a piece of poly
phonic, for example, the same way in which you rehearse a
Romantic piece. I realize this brings up a whole host of
problems; that is, how authentic do you wish to make the
interpretation of a given number? Nevertheless, I think this
knowledge is absolutely necessary. For instance, the whole
concept of "terraced dynamics," with Baroque music. So many
young conductors don't even know what you mean. At least
this seems to be the case if you listen to the music— they
"romanticize" it.
McEWEN You feel that in too many instances there is an insufficient

background in historical style. Do you have a method for
your own self preparation prior to the rehearsal of a given
piece of music?
267
SWAN A part of the preparation for me has taken place when I have
chosen that piece of music. This isn't everything. The
more complex the score, and I don't mean musical difficulty,
but the more "meat" that there is in the score, the more you
would have to study it. When I sit down before a rehearsal,
the thing that I have in my mind is the finished sound.
Perhaps that sounds strange to say, but this is true. I
know how I want it to sound eventually— at least I think I do.
Then I decide, on the basis of the style, on the basis of my
group, and, of course, such practical considerations as the
amount of time I wish to give to a given number in a re
hearsal, which particular techniques are needed for this
given rehearsal period, to advance that composition along the
road to its eventual performance.
McEWEN Does a chorus need any kind of literature insight, aside from
the technical accuracy itself? Do you feel that something
else is necessary for the chorus if it is to sing as you
would wish?
SWAN Yes, I think you need to take your chorus into your confidence
as much as possible. Good sense here is important. Some
young conductors are so bursting with knowledge that they
just talk all the time. This is a mistake. You don't have
to tell them everything at the point of rehearsal. You
unfold things and ideas if you are a normal conductor. I
think ideas unfold themselves to you also. You don't learn
everything about a score even with study of it. I don't
think that a person's concept of the score is complete until
that mental or imaginative sound concept is backed up with
what you actually hear the chorus do. Ideas occur to you as
a conductor. For instance, you can get fairly close perhaps
to a tempo that you want, but I don't think that you can
decide completely. In lots of cases you can't tell the
definite tempo you want until you hear your group sing, and
that may change it a little one way or the other.
McEWEN Do you feel that it is important for the chorus to be aware

of, in a sense, your fundamental feeling intellectually or
emotionally about a given work?
SWAN Very definitely. I think that by the time you come to a

performance, while the members do not necessarily have the
background that you have as a conductor, they should be
familiar in general with what you are trying to do.
McEWEN From the standpoint of some concepts of choral organization,

what are a few of the vocal elements that determine the
singers Whom you select for your groups? What do you look
268
for vocally?
SWAN I like to have the singers possess the ability to sing to the
center of a pitch— to sing in tune. In the second place (I
am not naming these in the order of importance) I think
there has to be a natural ability to sing rhythmically. I
think if there is not this, there is liable to be a lack of
imagination on the part of the singer. In the third place,
I look for a voice -which is at least normal in its capacity
to produce volume. I don't want great big voices, but it is
very seldom that I have use for extremely small voices—
voices that you can scarcely hear. I would question that
kind of voice. This is a little harder to get at, but I
like to think that the voices I choose are capable of growth
under the proper kind of direction. Many times I will choose
a singer that seemingly has a voice, in its present state,
which perhaps is inconsistent in quality. Maybe there is a
register difficulty, maybe there is a difficulty in range,
but if the problem is such that I feel I can help it or bring
it around to the point, then I will choose that voice.
McEWEN How about the ability for your singers to read music?
SWAN That is important. We always test for it. Since this group
at the college is a selected group, if a person doesn't read
well, but he offers some other things, and I know that there
are readers within the section, then I will excuse his
inability to read. In other words, it is not a definite
necessity for choice. Now this would not be true in other
groups that I conduct here at the college. I will take some
that do not read at all well and just get along with it as .
best I can.
McEWEN What other groups that you conduct here? Is there something
aside from the men's glee club and the women's glee club?
SWAN Yes, I have a college choir here which is a mixed group also.
McEWEN Of a less select nature?
SWAN Yes, this group is composed of about ninety-two singers, of

whom about seventy-five sing the Sunday services here on the
campus, and also do such things as our Christmas programs,
and a program in the spring, etc. While there are a few
people that have been rejected for membership in this group,
we take nearly anyone that can hold to some kind of a pitch—
where there isn't any ear difficulty.
McEWEN We have spoken of some of the vocal elements. Are there any
269
non-musical factors for your more select group which you take
into consideration?
SWAN No, I think not. There have been questions at times, certain
personality quirks, etc., but I can’t think of anybody that
we have actually rejected on these grounds.
McEWEN Can you think of anyone whom you have accepted whom you felt
would be on the border line of vocal deficiency, but because
of a personality element, you took them on?
SWAN Not exactly that. It has taken a little different form with
us. If a girl or if a man has consistently tried out for the
glee club— let’s say for four years running, which some have
done— by the time they get down to the senior year they are
one of these border line cases. I am liable to use them if
some other person is not being cheated out of the spot.
McEWEN Do you prefer a particular kind of choral seating arrangement?
SWAN I would simply say that we have not held to a consistent type
of arrangement down through the years. Normally, I will sing
with the old traditional lineup. The tenors are behind the
sopranos and the basses behind the altos. But many times I
have shifted the bass to the back of the sopranos. I would
say that a third of the time I have operated with my outside
parts in the center— that is first soprano, first tenor,
second bass, and second alto in the center of the group with
baritone, second soprano, second tenor, first alto to the
outside. We have used this also.
McEWEN It does fluctuate?
SWAN Yes, it does and sometimes it fluctuates during a season.

Sometimes we will come to give our campus concert j and as I
take them over to the auditorium, I hear things that I have
never heard before. In a case like this, I will not always
change the complete seating arrangement but I will change the
position of the people within the sections just as you saw me
do yesterday.
McEWEN Do you feel that this alternate arrangement which you suggested
is helpful from the'intonation standpoint?
SWAN Very definitely. With this other group of which I spoke a

moment ago, at the time-'of the Christmas program many of them
had had no musical experience at all, and I really gave them
some things to sing which were "over their heads." We did
the Willan "Hodie," the Dickinson "Shepherd's Story," and the
« 270
Besly, "The Shepherd Had an Angel." Those things were pretty-

tough for these people when they had not had any experience
at all. I finally ended up with no tenor that could get
above an F. So, in the "Shepherd Story" I had to have the
entire alto section take the tenor solo an octave low. The
tenors were so poor on their intonation that I finally ended
up with taking my first tenors— first tenors in quotes— and
placing them directly in the center of the tenor section with
some seconds behind them and some in front. Just perfectly
stupid when you try to analyze it. The interesting thing was
that as every director has raised the keys in order to try to
make things stay in tune a little better, I found that with
this particular group, with three numbers I had to lower 'the
keys to make them stay in pitch. I simply give this by way
of illustration to say, that I will experiment right up to the
moment of the concert, if necessary, to get what I think is
the best.
McEWEN Do you find it at all effective in your groups to implement

organization policy through the use of student officers of
any sort?
SWAN Yes, we do a lot of that here. We have an interesting thing,

interesting in that I don't believe many other people use it.
With our glee clubs here, and I did the same thing with the
church groups, we have what we call the point system. Every
student at the beginning of the year is given a certain
number of points. They spend those points as they wish. If
they are tardy or if they are absent, if they have to miss
either a rehearsal or a concert, regardless of the reason—
there are no excused absences— they spend those points. When
they finally get down to within one point or so of running
out— they are given six at the start of the year, with a
certain point assigned for each specific absence or tardiness
— they are notified of -what they have. If they run it out
then they have automatically disqualified themselves from
membership. When this happens, if they wish to be reinstated
they so indicate to the board of the glee club. They write a
letter at this particular time. There are certain blanks
which they use. These blanks are filed in duplicate. The
secretary has one and I have one. We pay no attention to
them, except as a notification, until this person runs out of
points. Then, his own situation is considered in the light
of the reasons why he has been absent. If he has been sick
or if there have been logical reasons, it is considered at
this time, but not before. The reason for this is, I don't
like to be put in a position where I am a kind of school
teacher and say, "I shall see." Particularly this was true
in my adult work in the church. It was embarrassing to me to
271
say to a person that was older than I, "If this is a good

excuse, you may be gone." "This is not agood excuse, you
cannot be gone." I just did not care for that. So we
evolved this kind of system. In addition to this, our
officers are very active. There is a lot that we have to do
in the way of supplying ourselves with uniforms, setting up
concerts, taking care of the mechanics of concerts, and
rehearsals. We have a very active— I think, for a musical
group— a very active kind of social program. The campus
concerts which we do here are very big affairs. Every single
person in the club is put on a committee. There is a great
deal of coordinating in this kind of thing. We do a tremen
dous amount of advertising, as well as a great deal of
staging. There is a lot of publicity to write. There are
costumes and programs to prepare. I don’t want to have to do
all that, so they do it.
McEWEN I am sure that many would be interested to know if this

intercollegiate competition to attract student musicians
through scholarship programs, assistantships of one sort or
another, has had any discernible effect upon the number or
calibre of students who are coming to your department?
SWAN It doesn’t here at Occidental. Along with certain other

Southern California institutions— I speak particularly of
Pomona and U.C.L.A.; I am not so sure of the others— we do
not have a scholarship program as such. Students are given
financial assistance, which is based entirely, or practically
so, on the basis of need. And that means that here at
Occidental, we have no departmental scholarships. I would
not be honest if I did not say that we hear some of these
people sing. We send down to the Admissions Office the
statement in writing that we heard them, that we would like
to have them. This is somewhat taken into account when the
aid picture is worked out, but we do not have competition
for scholarships as such.
McEWEN Has the competition from other schools affected your

enrollment here, concerning students whom you would like to
have?
SWAN I suppose it would be called competition. It is simply that

in a place like this where tuition costs are so high it has
meant that a great many people that we would have enrolled
ten or fifteen years ago are now going to the state institu
tions. That is the competition. They want to come, but they
can’t afford it.
McEWEN Have you observed the conduct of any of these recruitment
272
programs to be unethically operated at all?
SWAN No, I don't think I can say that. I think that all of the
institutions have different philosophies. There are some of
the institutions where they still have competition for the
chair in the orchestras as well as the members of the male
quartet, let's say, but I don't think it is unethical.
McEWEN Do you think there is any danger in this kind of recruiting

program— and it appears to be expanding— for the students to
develop an attitude that the state owes them an education:
that they have it coming; that they need not necessarily
earn it themselves? Is this "in the cards" at all in your
view?
SWAN I think there was more danger of this, quite frankly, ten
years ago than now. I think that, more and more, institu
tions are giving help to people who need it. Because of the
competition to get into college anyway, I think that more and
more of our young people are feeling that they are fortunate
to get there, regardless of where it is. I don't think it
is quite as crucial as it was ten years ago.
McEWEN That is an interesting point. Do you feel that choral

directors are prone to ask their groups to perform too
frequently?
SWAN I think they do.
McEWEN What are the results of excessive performance demands as you

have seen them?
SWAN I think there are many negative results, in the first place,
within the institution. You find yourself on the "outs" with
other faculty members. You place your students in a situa
tion where they are trying to satisfy two masters, so to
speak. They are trying to satisfy what you ask of them and
they are trying to satisfy their requirements in other
subjects. I think that it sometimes pull a the thing out of
proportion as far as the reputation of the institution is
concerned. There are too many outsiders and outside organi
zations who think in tenns of the school just in terms of the
performing organizations. It is the same thing with an
athletic team.
McEWEN Are there detrimental musical results, do you think?
SWAN Surely. You frantically try to get ready for this, that, or
the other program. The emphasis then too often is put upon
273
"getting by" with any kind of performance. There just isn't

the opportunity to really learn unless the program of per
formances is planned carefully. You're apt to have too much
entertainment music in the lineup.
McEWEN What do you consider then might be an optimum performing

schedule for a major collegiate choral organization?
SWAN This thing, I think, is really awfully hard to answer,

generally speaking, because every institution is different,
and then, you change with the times. Ten to fifteen years
ago we used to sing three times as much as we do now and I
think we sang pretty well too. We have cut out, for instance,
practically all our appearances before high schools. As I
indicated to you the other day, we take one or two service
club programs. We have deliberately tried to build our
program so that most of our performances are in the evening
so I don't have to take them out of class. This works the
best for us. We will do very little performing in the first
semester; it's nearly all rehearsal. Then we start off with
the tour. When we come back, beginning with about the last
week of February, we will do probably an average of about one
and a half concerts per week. Some weeks there will be three
and some weeks there will be one. Some weeks there won't be
any, but I try to build it with the idea of about an appear
ance a week. Sometimes it will go a little more than that.
McEWEN This then arises from a consideration for those concerts that
are in the best interest of the students and of the college.
Would that be a reasonable synthesis on the basis of what you
have said?
SWAN That is right.
McEWEN What are your views concerning the validity of choral concert
tours?
SWAN I think they are good. Not any more do I think they are
worth while from the standpoint of what they do for the
college. I think that if you are in a new college situation
where the college needs to be known or the music department
needs to be known, yes. I don't think that is necessary for
us now, but I do think that the tour offers the opportunity
for your young soloist to be heard in different places other
than immediately on the college campus. I think that this is
worth while. This is an advantage you offer to them which
they can't get any place else. I think that the tour is a
great social experience which probably can't be duplicated
in any other way.
274
McEWEN Are there elements of choral organizations which appear to

contribute favorably to group morale? Can you think of two
or three things which seem to make the group feel like a real
entity of which they are proud?
SWAN I think our own student organization does that. We have

regular board meetings. What they do in the board meetings
is reported back, always, to the group. They like that. As
I said a moment ago, we try to spread the jobs as much as
possible. It isn't delegated, from the top down but we ask
for lots of volunteer help. That kind of thing. They all do
it. Individually they feel that they are contributing in
this way.
McEWEN I wish that we might speak again concerning your reaction to

the special choral schools and their unique tonal "personali
ties ."
SWAN As I said then, I feel that when any school has been estab
lished for as long a time as some of these schools have, and
when they have sent out great numbers of graduates, or when
they have had a great number of people come to them, these
people are going to go out and try the technical things which
influence choral tone. They just can't help it. Perhaps it
is just a figment of my imagination; I don't think so. I
think this is the basic reason why you find choruses singing
with a different kind of tone production. I think that you
can't do everything with a voice— you can make a voice pro
ceed in a certain way. If you do other things to the voice,
that's going to change the voice. For instance, if you have
a concept that what you want basically is blend, if, in order
to get that blend you say constantly to the chorus, "Now
match your voice," or "Take out the vibrato," or something
like that, you are eventually going to have a chorus which
will sing beautifully at any dynamic level up to, let's say,
a mezzo-forte. They will not sound so good when they sing
louder than that. It also means that there are going to be
certain styles of literature in which they will sound better
than in other styles of literature. A chorus such as the one
I have just described will be at its very best when it sings
polyphony, because you get the impersonality, the blend, the
total ensemble, which is necessary to sing that kind of music.
If you give that kind of chorus a piece of Romantic music
they are not going to sound so effectively with it. As I
said to you the other day, my plea is that first of all the
choral director recognize that if he proceeds along a certain
line he will eventually develop a certain kind of tone. He
can try all kinds of literature but his chorus is bound to
sound better with one kind of literature than it will with
275
another. In my particular case, because I am interested

basically in the development of the individual human voice,
my choruses vri.ll always sound better with Romantic music,
with different kinds of dynamics, with the ability to con
struct a long phrase, for instance. To make it very blunt,
they will always sound better with Brahms than with Palestrina.
This doesn't mean that we won't love Palestrina, or that we
won't do it as well as we can. I cannot say to my people,
"Now, I want you to use individual aptitude, individual
imagination. I want you to blend, yes, but I still am not
going to do anything to affect the way in which you handle
your voice individually." I am not going to do that and at
the same time turn right around and say, "You have to develop
this beautiful choral blend."
Fourth Interview
t
McEWEN Do you feel that in addition to anything we mentioned yester

day you would like to say anything else concerning choral
schools of thought— their advisability, or anything at all
in addition?
SWAN No, I don't think so. I think that if one (and by one, I
mean a choral conductor or a voice teacher) is aware of what
they offer, if he is willing to explore as far as possible
with an open mind, and then to make his choices, I think this
is the very best kind of education. It is unfortunate, I
feel, that in some ways the young choral conductor, particu
larly the person who comes out of college, is influenced by
one kind of choral procedure which includes everything— the
way the director behaves, the kinds of techniques he uses,
and the kind of repertoire he uses. The student is influenced
by that for four years or soj and because this is all he
knows, he goes out and uses it. He may make a lot of mis
takes. Certainly he doesn't have as much of an open mind, I
think. Well, if he is imaginative, adjustable, or he is
constantly searching, he will refine and grow. Unfortunately,
he does not have in his own growth' the advantage of his own
objective criticism. And whatever he does he gets so close
to his own work that, by and large, what he hears satisfies
him. Therefore, you do not have as objective a kind of
approach as one would like.
McEWEN Well, let us proceed then to this topic of tone. Though I

know it is difficult, do you feel that you could describe at
all the nature of the choral tone which you consider ideal
or the one for which you strive?
276
SWAN In the first place, I feel that for me an ideal tone is one
•which has to be built upon the individual production which is
as expressive in its quality as possible. This means, there
fore, that in the first place I am very interested in posture
as it relates to tone. Now, by posture I don't mean just
standing up straight. I mean a complete relaxation of the
jaw and a complete relaxation of the tongue. Every conductor,
every singing teacher in the world believes in the "open
throat." You have to because a person can't sing unless the
throat is open, but not all agree as to how the throat will
be opened.
McEWEN Probably the concept of open throat may vary; that is, what
it means to one person and to another.
SWAN Well, I feel that the tongue and the jaw have a great deal
to do with this. In addition, I feel that the way a person
takes a breath and holds onto it has a great deal to do with
the way in which he sings. In two respects, I would go along
with the so-called Douglas Stanley school of thought in voice
production. I believe very definitely that there are
"registers" in the voice— two or three of them. It depends
upon how you define them. This means that I will make use of
a lower register in a woman's voice and I will make use of a
top register; whether you call it falsetto register or you
call it head-tone register I don't care. This means, not the
old concept, if I can put it this way, of a light "Irish
falsetto" in men, but a "driven" falsetto out of which will
come, at least to my experience, an amplification or an
extension of the range up on top. This doesn't mean that I
have the time to work with carefully devised choral exercises
to produce this with my men. I do that as I can— as I have
time for it.
McEWEN With the literature?
SWAN That is right. But it does mean that I will encourage them
and I will talk to them in terms of register and I will talk
to them in terns of the placement of their voice, etc. Now,
in the second place as far as the Stanley business is con
cerned, I will work very definitely with actual application
with the tongue. This means that I don't work for a flat
tongue or a grooved tongue, but rather for a free tongue,
which I think, for me, comes when the jaw is opened loosely.
This is simply something which I have observed and proved to
myself satisfactorily that if the jaw is free enough, the
tongue rises. One doesn't have to "put" it any place, it
just does that. Now this means, tone-wise, that is using the
slang phraseology, that all of us who work with choruses use,
277
this means that my tone basically will be a "dark" tone.

Sometimes people say that the tone which my choruses use will
be produced "back"— whatever that means. At any rate, it
will be a dark tone. To me, darkness has more than a con
notation of color. Darkness to me means open-throatedness.
It might not mean the same thing to the next person at all.
This goes along, particularly with the men's voices, with a
rather full tone. This does not mean anything as big, that
is, as fundamentally big, as either a "Stanley-trained" (if
I can use the term) chorus would produce or a Westminster
choir would produce, but it does have elements of those
things.
Now, where I would disagree with the Stanley school is
that, if you are familiar with it, you know that basically
the way that those people work (particularly with the women)
would be to work with the lower part of the voice first. In
other words, the "lower mechanism," as Wilcox would call it,
or the "lower register," as Stanley would call it. And then
drive that lower register right on up the scale. Now, I will
have girls exercise in lower register, but I will not attempt
to carry that on up the scale. I attempt to have them carry
the "feeling" with which they support the lower register as
they sing higher, while they use what I call their "natural
voice." I find that this means that they sing with a great
deal more support and sing with a great deal more breath,
just in quantity. In other words, they get used to taking
more breath. Now, at a certain point in the range, both for
men and for women, I believe that there is such a thing as
head tone. But instead of getting at it as many people do
with the idea of "placing" the tone in such and such a place,
that is, encouraging people to "sing in the mask," trying to
develop what I would call a consciousness or a sensation of
the result they wish to produce, I still try to get at it
from the standpoint of the cause. I think that when we deal
too much with the result of something we are trying to sell
someone else on the subjective sensation which we feel when
we sing, and I am not so sure that we can do that. I think,
therefore, that the secret to this lies in the change which
everybody feels as they sing higher tones— change in the
nature of the support. In other words, if you shout, if you
sing high, or if you try to sing a little bit softer, you
will actually use less breath. You will have a feeling that
the entire supporting mechanism is higher in the rib cage,
so to speak. You will drive a smaller amount of breath a
little harder to produce a high tone. Now that is the
sensation I want them to get. In other words, I believe
in a head-tone. Stanley doesn't and Williamson doesn't.
This is one place where I would disagree.
278
McEWEN Well, that is a very good discourse. Have any methods proved
especially effective with your groups in achieving this
result?
SWAN We do lots of staccato and marcato exercises. We do lots of

work to understand the dynamic level at which we are singing.
Just the simple thing of measuring the space between my hands
and showing them the degree of loudness at which they are
singing. We talk in terms of varying degrees of pronuncia
tion. If I want to work for high tones, I will go for a
staccato and will always start on top, so they get the
feeling of the attack right from the beginning rather than
singing up from the bottom and attempting to carry the top
register up. The energy which I wish to have them feel on
top at first is a "driven" kind of thing. Later on they
learn how to combine it.
McEWEN This was the sort of thing you did this fall as the group
assembled?
SWAN That is right.
McEWEN Are there elements aside from just the tonal aspect which are
involved in the kind of choral sound for which you strive?
SWAN In order to try to make them hear parts other than their own,
we use the device of various parts humming, and then inviting
one part at a time, simply by pointing out the section, to
sing a vowel sound. This impinges that sound upon the ears
of the other people so they have to listen. We do lots of
vocalizing where we move in half steps up and down, or in
thirds up and down, or seconds up and down, for purposes of
intonation. As I told you yesterday, I am constantly chang
ing people within a group so that they get used to each
other's sounds as far as pronunciation is concerned. That
kind of thing.
McEWEN Do you prefer a balance of sound among the sections which

would, say, favor the men slightly over the women?
SWAN Yes, I call it the "steeple" or "pyramid" balance.
McEWEN I have noticed that you do give considerable attention to

what I might call a uniform handling of vowels.
SWAN Well, it is uniform, but yet it isn't. In other words, I

believe that every vowel sound has to be modified as one
goes on up the scale.
279
McEWEN But uniform within the group, you would say?
SWAN Oh, yes, certainly. Very definitely. But not to the point
at which I begin to impinge upon what I would call the
individual's own precious, or special, or unique character
istic which is his own.
McEWEN Numerically speaking, would you make any suggestion as to

the ratio of male to female voices which you prefer?
SWAN Well, this is an interesting thing. If I were establishing a

choir for the first time in this place and I wanted to make
it very selective, my group would probably go about— if I
were having a choir of eighty— I would probably go fifty men
and thirty women. When I came into this situation, where we
had separate glee clubs, each of the same size, because I
have wanted to give musical experience as much as possible to
everyone and because the social thing is somewhat involved
here too and because it is not a professional situation, I
want to keep the number of men and women as nearly equal as
I can. Now this means that we do just about that. It
happens this year that I did decide to go a little bit more
strongly to the side of the men and so for the first time
since I have been here, we do have a group of thirty-six men
and thirty-three women, but this is the first time I have
ever done that.
McEWEN Now, please don't feel compelled to speak to anything which

you feel is not of particular significance as I mention some
of these things. But would you have any comment concerning
a particular style of attack or release, or of elements of
articulation about which you feel strongly, or which are
unique with your group?
SWAN I think that an attack is more than just an attack. I think

an attack depends upon the character of the kind of number
with which you are working. For instance, I think that
choral directors, until Mr. Shaw pointed the way, did not
realize the power that is in the "up-beat," so to speak.
I think that with some kinds of music, and this depends upon
the vitality which you wish to put into the music, there is a
lot of vitality in the up-beat. It is kind of a wave-like
thing. It is kind of a surge, but you gather power in the
up-beat for what you place in the down-beat. I think one of
the greatest misnomers which we have in music is just the word
"attack." It carries the connotation to people which is many
times incorrect— a sudden starting of something. In the
effort to get away from that, many choral conductors have gone
to the other extreme and while the group starts together there
280
is no feeling of communication in the start at all. Too

often you cither have a jabbing kind of thing which obviously
affects the character of the music or you go to the other
extreme and you have an enervating, inconsequential sort of
thing which is not communicative at all. But this, I think,
depends upon the character of the music.
McEWEN Let us go to the matter of conducting then, if you please.

I am wondering if you have any theory concerning a special
function or a unique responsibility that is choral conduct
ing?
SWAN Yes, I think so. I know that in many institutions 'the con
ducting classes, whether they are orchestral or choral, are
taught in the same class. The answer of the teacher is that
music is music and, therefore, you can teach a choral con
ductor or an instrumental conductor exactly the same thing.
We don't happen to believe that around here. I think, while
the patterns may be exactly the same, the special function
that we have in choral music (and I think it is a wonderful
and special thing) is the fact that we are dealing with
words— symbols which in themselves stand for ideas. Textual
ideas which carry with them a musical connotation. Since
this is so (I am not advocating, you understand, considering
the text more important than the music), I am saying that
certainly if the composer has done his job well, one enhances
the other. And, therefore, in conducting, whatever we do in
gesture, whatever we have in feeling, there has to be this
sense of communication, first to the chorus in rehearsal and
in performance, and then from the chorus to the listener, of
the ideas which are textually expressed. Any kind of con
ducting which, whether through ignorance or whether through
the fact that the conductor just doesn't care, ignores this,
is wrong. To be sure, it would be more important with some
styles of music than with others.
McEWEN Are there any methods which you have which you feel enhance
the response of the group to your conducting? Do you do
something which seems to gather in their attention?
SWAN All kinds of little things. There is first of all, how you
feel it yourself and you try to attempt to have the chorus
feel it the same way, even to urging them, if possible, to
show it on their faces— not in an artificial way, for not all
people express in the same way with this look on the face.
They are just unable to do this, but some can. You constant
ly, when the score asks for it, ask for a certain kind of
vitality and you expect to see that bodily. Sometimes you
actually conduct in a dead, mechanical kind of way and ask
281
them to sing that way. Actually ask them to do the wrong

thing so they can sense the difference between that which,
I would say, has "life" and that which does not have life.
Then sometimes we will walk in place as we sing, sometimes
we will stretch on tiptoes to get the feeling of a certain
buoyancy and a certain amount of life, to sing in that
particular way. Constantly, there is the listening of one
part of the group to another part of the group.
McEWEN But from the conducting point of view, I have observed, and
probably you would consent, that the conductor's reflection
and communication to his group of the idea which exists in
his mind is expressed far beyond the pattern itself— in his
body, and in his face.
SWAN Yes, this is true. We even attempt to teach that through the
classes here. I feel that there are three things which the
conductor has— face, body, and hands. And I gave them to you
in order of importance, as far as I am concerned. The hand
is least important. It simply guides the thing.
McEWEN This is what I was after, I think. What do you believe to

be the chief causes of poor choral intonation?
SWAN I think the principal cause, from the standpoint of the

chorus, is a lack of being able to hear. This in turn
depends upon first, the concept of interval as far as the
chorus is concerned, and second the way in which the chorus
pronounces. And again the way the chorus pronounces may be
dependent upon a number of things— whether they modify vowel
sounds correctly, depending upon the pitch they are singing,
and what they do with the register in which they sing.
I would like to take fifteen seconds here to mention sui
interesting thing here in this regard. I was training a
chorus for a very well-known symphony conductor at one time
on the Verdi "Requiem" and he took them over. The "Liberame"
has a passage where the alto section comes out of the bottom,
so to speak. They start on a low "g" and come up the scale
very rapidly. Well, every time they hit along about "f"
sharp or "g" above middle "c," they would go sha p. He worked
with them a half an hour, becoming very angry with them, over
and over again, because they did this. Then they had their
break, I took him aside and I said, "Now the reason they are
doing this is because they develop all of this power and
support for the lower register, they maintain this same
support because they are singing so rapidly that they cannot
change the quality of tone as they go across the "break" so
they drive it and it goes sharp. If you will suggest to them
that they start just a little more quietly, attempt to carry
282
and start with the upper register feeling on the lower tone,
you will have no trouble." He did this and it worked. This
was not a question of their being unable to hear. This was
a question of asking them to produce in the wrong kind of
way and this affected the intonation.
McEWEN Now we come to one of our last questions. This concerns

your observations related to festival choruses or to unusually
large groups. When you are choosing literature for such
large choruses, if you are given the opportunity to do so,
what are the first considerations that are in your mind when
you know that your rehearsal time vr 1] be very limited?
SWAN Well, obviously there are some things which you have to know.
You have to know how large the chorus will be and the spread
of the voice parts. I like to know a little something about
the place in which they are going to be singing. In other
words, the formation in which we will find them and the
nature of the accompanying media. I also have to know the
relative ability. It makes a little difference, in other
words, whether they are volunteer church choirs, whether they
are college groups, or whether they are high school groups.
This makes a difference. Then the choice of literature again
would depend upon whether we are singing one group of things,
or a whole evening, or two groups of things. In other words,
you have a problem here of voice building. If the group is
not so large so that such is impossible, I would then try to
program so that there would be some interest insofar as
singing with and without accompaniment is concerned. There
would have to be some balance that way. When I have gotten
this far then I think in terms of the educational part of it.
I would like, even if there were just three numbers, to give
them an acquaintance with three different periods in musical
composition if such is possible. And I try to work this
together with the variety, even with three numbers, that one
can get. I would say that the limited amount of time, etc.,
would obviously affect my choice of numbers insofar as their
difficulty is concerned, but some of these other factors
would be more important to me. In other words, I would try
to find a way to overcome the difficulties of time either by
insisting that certain things be done when they come to a
festival, or by sending out to the directors my own ideas on
tempos, dynamics, or certain problems that exist within the
score. This, of course, again depends upon the district or
the nature of the group.
McEWEN May I ask, is there in your opinion a kind of musical writing

which seems to present difficulty with a group simply because
of the sheer size of the organization?
283
SWAN Yes, certainly. You have to watch music that moves at too
fast a tempo. You have to watch where the writing is too
close as far as harmony is concerned. You have to watch even
more so than with your regular college groups, your spread of
range. That is, not from the standpoint that more voices
will not accomplish this spread better, for they do, but
because of the fact that the larger the group the more
difficult it will be to hear. You have to watch the phi,.se
line. Interestingly enough, here you have to be sure that
the phrase line is not too short rather than too long, be
cause you have enough voices so that they can swing a long
phrase line, providing that it is not at too slow a tempo.
On the other hand, to give them something, for instance,
very "dance-like" with two, four, or five beats to a phrase,
'or even six or eight beats to a phrase, then it becomes
"choppy" and "jerky" without any kind of feeling at all.
You have to stay away from things which have as their basic
beat-note an eighth note or a sixteenth note] this isn't for
festival choruses.
McEWEN These observations, I think, are very good. Nov; that the
literature has been chosen and you meet them for their first
rehearsal, do you set about initially to accomplish any
specific things? Two or three things which you want them to
be able to do at your indication, as soon as possible?
SWAN The first thing that I try to do with a festival chorus

every time is to acquaint them with me. I think this is very
important and the very first thing I say to them is the fact
they're always startled when I first speak because my speaking
voice is so poor. I just explain to them that this is
because I have only one vocal cord] therefore, they are going
to have to get along with somebody who doesn't sound very
pleasant in the quality of his speaking voice. I think this,
particularly with high school youngsters, is very important
because if we are to be together for any length of time at
all and I have to talk to them, or shout to them while they
are singing, even if I am using a microphone, my voice goes
up and it simulates the sound of a woman's voice and can
become very disturbing to a group that isn't used to it.
Now, I find that if I state it this way, then they accept it
and this is all there is toit and they understand. Then
usually the second thing we do is to have them sing a few
sustained chords. I hear each section for a minute or two to
get them used to their sound if they haven't been together
and to give me an idea. If there is something good I can say
about it at this time, I do. And if there is something
deficient, I usually point it out to them, not in a dis
couraged tone of voice, but simply say, "If you listen very
284
carefully this is the way we sound and we are going to have

to do something about this." Then I take the simplest of
the numbers and start out, although I nearly always stop
them on the first phrase because they will not have followed
me. Then with some ludicrous kind of remark or some ludi
crous kind of direction, I indicate to them the kind of way
that they sang and how I would have to conduct if I were to
conduct picturing the way they sang to me. And then I will
show them how I want it. Well, this seems to motivate them.
Particularly the young people, and they then try to come
along with me. This is about the way we launch ourselves
into the thing.
McEWEN Is a concept of their dynamic potential important early in

the game?
SWAN Very soon we do this and I do it just with my hands.
McEWEN We come to the final section in this interview, Dr. Swan,

and I know that many people would be interested in the
choral problems and the general weaknesses in the choral
field which you have observed. Which ones do you most
frequently observe in your adjudications and guest conducting,
etc.?
SWAN I would say that the thing that I observe the most is— well,
it is twofold in a way, just as everything in musical
interpretation relates to everything else— it is the inabili
ty to phrase properly. This to a large extent, not complete-
ly, you will understand, is related to the seeming inability
to choose a proper tempo. Wagner wasn't the first one to
think in terms of tempo, but he is certainly one who hada
great deal to say about it. Certainly it is true that
without a proper tempo the piece of music simply loses its
color. And how in the world, some people get at the tempos
that they finally come up with is more than I'll ever know.
It is just positively amazing to me how they can so "miss the
boat"— miss the composer's ideas. Now this doesn't mean that
you sind I would choose just exactly the same metronomic tempo
for a given piece. It means, obviously, that with certain
kinds of music, there is more latitude than there is with
other kinds of music. I amspeaking of the fact that somany
times choruses just seem tobe "way off," somewhere, and
this is related to this business of phrasing.
If I were to mention another thing, it is very hard to
get at, but it is this business of communication. Too often,
as you hear choruses, you feel that they are singing music in
exactly the same way that they would if it were the first
time that they had seen it. That they, to all intents and
285
purposes, are holding music in their hands and reading the

notes from the page. They have the music memorized; they
sing softer here, they sing louder here, they slow down here,
they speed up here; but it seems to mean absolutely nothing
to them and obviously nothing to those who listen.
McEWEN Now then, what constitutes communication? In what more

specific ways are they deficient? Why don't they communicate
to the listener?
SWAN Well, the only thing I can say (of course this is a tough
one) is that basically it is the fear of the conductor to
reveal himself or herself emotionally to the chorus and in
turn the chorus will not do the same thing to the listener.
It is just as though everybody wears a mask; and you cannot
do that in the presence of great art. Now, I will admit
that there is a "phoney" thing, there is an artificial thing,
there is a thing that we experience with "corny" music and
sentimental music, this so-called "Hollywood" style of
production. This is not what I am talking about. This kind
of thing can take place and does take place most wonderfully
as one is interpreting the greatest music. Here there has
to be an understanding of the technical aspects of the score.
But added to the technical aspects of the score, there has
to be the great joy and the great thrill and the great re
freshing of oneself, as he again and again sings this music.
McEWEN Do you detect deficiencies with respect to selection of

literature on the part of choral conductors? Is it serious;
is it widespread?
SWAN Yes, as far as I can tell it is widespread. I know it is no

worse than it was twenty years ago and it is better in that
more conductors are doing more good music, but they do not
seem to have the discrimination that they ought to. For
instance, you go to an average festival, a choral festival,
that we have so many of around here, nine or ten— well, nine
or ten! I think there are thirty of them that the school
vocal association is sponsoring this year in various areas.
Each chorus is given three numbers to sing usually. What will
they do every time? You find something of Bach or Palestrina,
something from the Baroque or Polyphonic period will be sung
first. Now not always, but most often, you get the idea that
this is lip service. This is the thing that they have to do
to keep up their standards. The chorus usually doesn't sing
it too well, certainly not as far as communication is con
cerned. They go through the motions. The second number will
usually be something romantic; and then when the third number
comes all of a sudden you are aware that something great is
286
going to happen. The chorus smiles; they kind of relax.

Yo'ii get the idea they can hardly wait; and they v d l l launch
into a Negro spiritual; and they really "blast" it, give it
all the rhythmic drive possible and the audience applauds
like the "dickens." Nearly always this kind of thing
happens. Now, there is nothing wrong with this kind of
program, but why can't they get the same kind of effect with
the first number or the second number? Why at least can't
the singers become just as excited about those first two?
Well, I say it is the conductor's fault. The conductor
hasn't gotten excited about it either because he isn't built
that way or because he doesn't know how to become excited
about it.
McEWEN Now, sir, if these weaknesses exist in the conductor, do you

feel they are basic inadequacies with respect to him as a
person or do you feel that there are implications which would
relate to faulty teacher training?
SWAN I believe the second is true. I think that the conductors

are smart. They show that they are. I am just generalizing,
of course, but they show that they are as far as the techni
cal side of things is considered. No, I don't think they
are being taught. I know that, for instance, the experience
that I have with the people who come here for my summer work
shops. You talk to them about the historical periods of
music and you just touch the highlights which is all the time
we have with some of these things. Well, a good three-fourths
of the class just sits there with their mouths open. They
have never even heard this before.
McEWEN They don't know history; they don't know styles.
SWAN And they don't know how to make the application of the style
through the rehearsal. You can't rehearse polyphonic music.
Polyphonic music depends upon the individual line; therefore,
you go back almost to a rote kind of training with the
individual part over and over again on a given phrase.
Roger Wagner does this all of the time. He has to do it
this way. You have to train people that way. That is, until
they develop a knowledge of the style. But the give and take
that is involved there— in other words, the phrasing— people
don't know how to rehearse for that at all. They rehearse
polyphonic music just exactly the way they would rehearse
Brahms. It has never occurred to them that you do it in a
different way. This is the way with Polyphony, particularly,
that young people gain a love for it. They understand what
it is to become excited about singing their own individual
line and how it fits into an over-all pattern. This is the
287
kind of thing I mean.
McEWEN Does this imply a weakness on the part of the instruction in

rehearsal in the actual collegiate productions in which
these people have participated?
SWAN I would say so.
McEWEN The leadership has been weak there?
SWAN I probably don't have any right to make that statement, but
I would say I would think so.
McEWEN Our very last comment here: I would ask you if you could
recommend to a young choral conductor— probably we are con
sidering here the undergraduate mjsic major who anticipates
going into the choral field— can you recommend to this person
the pursuit of any special kind of experience which you feel
would make a really significant contribution to his musical
maturation or to his professional growth?
SWAN Well, as far as the practical side of it is concerned, if the

opportunity arises, I would certainly say sing with several
groups if you can, providing those groups are directed by
people who are imaginative, creative in their own directing.
You will learn from them. Don't sing with one, sing with
several over a period of, let's say, five years, if such is
possible.
Then, in the second place, I would say do a tremendous
amount of listening. With all of the stuff that is available
on records now, what an opportunity they have, but they don't
take advantage of it. And if they listen to records of
choral music, too often they listen just in terms of sheer
layman's listener enjoyment for the content of that which
they are listening to'. For instance, why not listen to
choruses from the standpoint of the tone that they use? Say
now, "How in the world did this fellow develop this tone and
what are they doing? Why does this chorus sound different
from this chorus? What could this chap possibly or probably
do to produce this tone?" and decide what they like.
Then in the third place, I would do lots of listening so
they develop their own taste for music and their own ability
to listen to individual voice lines. To get to the place
where they can listen to four, five, six, eight parts at
once. Start with two if they have to, and as I mentioned
the other day, the best way to do that is to start with a
string quartet, and always with a score in hand.
And then finally, I would say that I don't think our
young people do enough of the right reading of certain kinds
288
of books. Now I have indicated, or tried to in these talks

with you, that I think this business of a knowledge of styles
is tremendously important. But how many of our young people,
for instance, know Einstein on the Italian Madrigal and
Schubert; know Dolmetsch on the music of the sixteenth and
seventeenth centuries; know Fellowes on the English Madrigal;
know the Evans books on Brahms and Geiringer on Haydn; and
can compare Spitta and Schweitzer on Bach? These are the
sources of materials from which you have to glean bits here
and there. Hans-David, for instance, on the nature of
Polyphonic song; he has only about four pages in there, but
what he has to say, in his preface, what he has to say about
the use oftempo, the use of dynamics, what to do with
syncopation in Polyphony, etc. Why, here is a gold mine.
Then, of course, to me, the most important book that has come
out in the last five years has been this very courageous work
of George Howerton on the "Technique and Style of Choral
Singing." In the first half of the book, which relates to
just ways of singing, there is nothing particularly new.
They are his ideas and they are all right. But in the second
half, he plunges into style— the first time I have ever known
this to happen in the choral field— and he takes all of these
writers and he puts them together. He synthesizes; and he
goes right straight down the line. How people intheir music
have differed geographically, nationally, and then he takes
the periods right from the beginning. What should you find
in the scores of Polyphony, in Baroque music, in Romantic,
Classical, Contemporary, Impressionistic, etc. When I
started out twenty-five years ago there wasn't anything like
this. I had to "bump my head." I had to look for an awful
lot of this stuff myself. It is all there if people are
interested enough to get it for themselves.
McEWEN But quite obviously you are still looking.
SWAN You don't stop.
McEWEN Well, sir, this concludes our sessions; and I want to express
all of the appreciation I can for the generosity with which
you have extended your time, because I know you have been
very, very busy. So again, thank you very much.
VITA
Douglas Reeve McEwen was born in Bowling Green, Ohio, where
he received his elementary and secondary public school education.
He was granted the Bachelor of Science in Education degree from
Bowling Green State University in 1951, and the Master of Music
Education degree from Indiana University, Bloomington, in 1955*
He is a member of Phi Sigma Mu, Qmicron Delta Kappa, Kappa Delta Pi,
and Sigma Chi. He has taught in the public schools of California
and was a member of the music faculty of La Verne College, La Verne,
California, from 1956 to I960. Currently he is employed as a member
of the Music Division faculty of Colorado State College, Greeley.

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61-6905

j C olorado State C o lleg e, E d .D ., 1961

{ University Microfilms, Inc., Ann Arbor, Michigan

The Graduate Division

MUSIC PHILOSOPHIES, CHORAL CONCEPTS, AND CHORAL TECHNIQUES

EMPLOYED BY SEIECTED CHORAL CONDUCTORS IN SOUTHERN

CALIFORNIA FOUR-YEAR COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES

Research Study Number 1

Submitted in Partial Fulfillment of the Requirement

for the Degree of Doctor of Education

RESEARCH AND EXAMINING COMMITTEE

DEAN OF THE GRADUATE DIVI

Examination on Research Study Number 1 Date_

The vrriter wishes to express his deepest gratitude to Roger

Wagner of the University of California at Los Angeles, Howard Swan of

Occidental College, and Charles Hirt of the University of Southern

California, for the genuinely interested cooperation which was

necessary for a thorough discussion of the ideas which are related

in the subsequent chapters.

Dr. E. E. Mohr, in addition to providing stimulation and

advice as the writer's major professor, has exercised a positive

To his wife, Donna G. McEwen, the writer is grateful for her

constant encouragement and for her assistance in editing the interview

McEwen, Douglas R. "Music Philosophies, Choral Concepts, and Choral

Statement of the Problem

Choral conductors held in highest regard by their professional

colleagues are normally so considered because of the superior quality

of their choral performance. To determine the criteria exercised in

the preparation of such performance, one is confronted with the

problem of discovering the intellectual and the technical principles

employed by those conductors.

Thus, the problem posed by this study concerns, broadly, the

revelation of discernible philosophic, conceptual, and technical

elements which may contribute to the high-quality choral performance

Selection of Subjects for Study

In order to make a valid selection of successful choral

conductors for the investigative purposes of this study, the writer

sent a list of the names of Southern California four-year college and

university choral conductors to a substantial number of teachers of

asked to "X" the names of the conductors whom they considered to be

of outstanding superiority with respect to a composite of choral tone,

choral literature, artistic interpretation, conducting effectiveness,

and choral precision and discipline.

So that a broad sampling of professional opinion might be

secured, the list of college and university choral conductors was

sent to members of the Southern California Vocal Association who teach

vocal music in cities of a population exceeding 100,000. In the case

county received the mailing.

To lend further authority to the ultimate selection of the

officers of the California-Western Division of Music Educators National

Conference and to the presidents of the Music Educators National

Conference organizations of those states comprising the Western

Division. A fourth group of professional opinions were those expressed

by the officers of the Southern California Vocal Association.

A total of the above groups constituted 270 individuals who

were actively engaged in choral music and geographically accessible to

the choral performance of the listed conductors. It was the intent of

choral conductors whose names were most frequently checked by those

who returned the questionnaire.

Nine questionnaires were returned as a result of inaccurate

thirty-six individuals responded to the questionnaire by checking the

names of the choral conductors whom they felt to be superior or by

indicating their lack of familiarity with the work of any of the

Head of the Department of Church Music and Director of Choral Organi

1. Roger Wagner attributes great significance to the mu

idea, so has vocal tone quality the capacity to re