TONY JONES: Good evening and welcome to Q and A.

As the fear of terrorism dulls the

brightness in our current society, a fright of espionage stirred upon the rising news of the past. I am
Tony Jones and your guest speakers for tonight: Ex-MI6 member Robert Williams; a history
lecturer, now a Professor of Literature, Charles Diggens; and the director of ‘Spy Game’, Tony
Scott. Please welcome our panel. (Audience applause)
Clearly, the notion of espionage during the medieval times and the recent cold war, still remains a
timeless issue today. It is an issue that is one which pervades human thinking and the human
society. Mr Williams, being an ex-secret intelligence member and who has had authentic espionage
experience, please take us through this notion of the spy world.

ROBERT WILLIAMS: Well, I would like to start off by my own personal experience. I was a
military personnel until I have been recruited to the British MI6. I remember the very first training
course I underwent and compared to the physical training in the military force, it was all about mind
games. It all resorted to loosening up all your emotions, morals and ethics, and concentrate on what
needs to be done; focus your missions and your aspirations. This was what the spy's work was, learn
to become different and digest what is given to you.

TONY JONES: It sounds very similar to Scott's 'Spy Game' the training courses of Bishop'.
Anyway, what kind of tasks did your superiors give you back in the days?

ROBERT WILLIAMS: My first mission sent me to Berlin to annihilate anyone who tried to cross
the wall. Of-course, if you have been in those espionage training, accepting that mission was easier
than a piece of cake. It is right before, standing on the towers, holding a sniper and taken aim at an
innocent life who are desperate to migrate to the other side of Berlin... It was right before I pulled
the trigger, a cold shivers down my spine and my conscience questions the morals I had placed
behind. I had this feeling every time I was given orders by my superiors. This espionage game is
really just a strive for dominance between nations and their ideologies. For me, I see myself in
between a conflict for the need to perform duties verses a control of valuing my morals and ethics.
Societal values and espionage values are contradictory. Indeed in the world of espionage, societal
values merely exists as they are commonly disregarded, but in the end, there is always a time of
evaluation, similar to Tom Bishop in 'Spy Game', Scott.

TONY SCOTT: Yes, I have been told about this internal conflict that one faces when they act
against their innate human instincts when I have been asking for ideas for 'Spy Game'. Similarly, in
in this film, Tom Bishop had so much burden in the tasks he undertakes from Muir when it involved
using lives as a tribute to gain something else. It is not that his human instinct desiring for life is
stronger, perhaps just his ability to be indifferent is lower. The society values lives of individuals,
but yet in this world of espionage, the concept of 'lives are expendable' was valued. All this
espionage game, delves into overpowering your conscious need to control the complex mind and
human instincts to perform duty...

TONY JONES: Sorry to interrupt, you mentioned that spies seem to face the internal conflicts
between responsibility and instincts, is it true that terrorists lack the ability to evaluate since they
can perform such disastrous things, yet they still maintain themselves normally?

CHARLES DIGGENS: Humans are the only creatures that have the ability to evaluate. You
wouldn't see a polar bear shred into tears after it has digested a penguin, would you? It is not that
the terrorists lack the ability evaluate, but rather than their thinking is corrupted. Their priests tells
them something like, 'the more people you kill, the faster you reach heaven.' Eventually after taking
so many lives, they start to become indifferent. Moral relativism defines their values, morals and
ethics. We see them as disastrous, monster-like suicide bombers, but they see themselves as
freedom fighters. It is the context that they are brought up in which defines their behaviour.
Similarly, Karla in Le Carre's 'Smiley's People', was nicknamed as the 'Sandman' as he has a way of
putting to sleep whomever gets too close to him, just like Vladimir, a great general who still could
not escape the homing bullets of Karla's. This shows his indifference towards others in relation to
his value to perform duty and responsibilities as a high ranking officer, role-modelling for the KGB.

ROBERT WILLIAMS: Indeed, its not that these people cannot evaluate, it's just that their
surrounding context perceives their indifference to others. I was brought up during the cold war,
and my context began to evolve around its values. Back then, when performing duties, it was al-
right to use dirty tricks, it was al-right to take another life for the greater good, anything was al-right
so long as it benefited the MI6. After my retirement, and migrating to Australia, the society has
once again influenced my morals and precepts for a fair society. I believe that when someone
commits a fault, it is not them, but rather their context is to blame.

TONY SCOTT: I strongly assert that what we believe and how we comprehend is deeply related to
the society we live in. It even has the ability to change and challenged all our previous values. In
'Spy Game', Bishop at first was just a soldier in the military unit before Muir recruited him and he
adapted the completely different values from his training lessons. It is his change in context which
allowed these adaptations.
TONY JONES: But didn't Bishop in the end found that he valued his life's calling over his duty?

TONY SCOTT: Yes, this is because his value for life of others is more significant than his career.

TONY JONES: Back in the cold war, they must have been some people who did not have any
values for morals and ethics right?

CHARLES DIGGENS: That is certainly correct, there are always many shifts in different values
but there are some people who value morals as naivety. It is not that morals and ethics are
unnecessary, but rather that they are not worth following essentially worthless. In 'Smiley's People'
Karla did not value morals as much as self benefit, as he misused the nations' official funds of
pocketing ten thousand dollars monthly and placing it into the care of his daughter. Well, this was
one of the elements that led to his downfall, so I guess, morals are really not that worthless after
all...

TONY JONES: As usual, our audience always wants to get involved. The gentleman up the back
with his hand up.

MAN IN AUDIENCE: Greetings everyone and guest speakers. Mr Williams, what were the costs
for you to become a spy and how has espionage affected the society?

ROBERT WILLIAMS: I guess, my biggest sacrifice in joining the MI6 was almost a barrier on
building any authentic connection with my partner. She broke up with me because she thought I
was too devoted to my career and I didn't have enough space to offer her. They were much affected,
I remember there were a few cities where there was constant warfare around, and the local people
heard continuos gunshots and bombings for months. People often stayed indoors for their safety, yet
food and water shortages still haunted them. Individuals also had fears that they'll become the next
victim, to be used as the means for the sake of 'lives are expendable' and claimed as the greater
good.

TONY JONES: And this issue, indeed remains a concerning matter, but unfortunately this is all the
time we have tonight. Please thank our panel, Robert Williams, Tony Scott and Charles Diggens.
Thank you very much on taking out the time out to join us. Good night.