Stock Vs S3 Vs RS4 Injectors SOME GOOD INFO

6/7/22, 10:50 AM Stock vs S3 vs RS4 injectors SOME GOOD INFO | VW Vortex - Volkswagen Forum
Search Community 
Home
 Forums
 Technical (VW & Audi)
 2.0T FSI, TSI, and TFSI (EA113…

Stock vs S3 vs RS4 injectors SOME GOOD INFO

Jump to Latest Follow
1 2 3
1 - 20 of 41 Posts

Serrari · Registered
S Joined Jun 29, 2008
·
544 Posts

Discussion Starter
·
#1
·
Aug 18, 2010
(Edited)
I dont really get this info:
More fuel for the fire.We'veted the RS4 injectors during our 2.0T turbo development R&D.
We first tested them in cars, before we purchased our $8000 ASNU DI injector test stand.
When in the car, they produce what looks to be much richer air/fuel ratio vs stock or S3. However, after
careful analysis, some odd starting and part throttle behavior was traced to their use.
Upon testing stock, S3, and RS4 injectors in our ASNU test stand, we had some interesting results.
As you can see from the photo below, the spray pattern of the RS4 injector is very different from the stock
and S3 injectors. This alone can contribute to the starting and part throttle issues:
What was even more interesting were the measured flow rates:
Stock = 1080 cc/min
RS4 = 1091 cc/min
S3 = 1217 cc/min
For all intents and purposes, the RS4 injectors flow about the same as stock 2.0T FSI injectors. This makes
sense when you do a hp per cylinder calculation between the two engines. We also confirmed our results
after contacting Hitachi directly.
The rich air/fuel exhaust reading seems to be an anomaly possibly related to incomplete combustion due to
the wrong spray pattern. The peculiarities of direct injection behavior vs conventional injection behavior are
https://www.vwvortex.com/threads/stock-vs-s3-vs-rs4-injectors-some-good-info.4991112/ 1/10
still being learned.
Either way, the exhaust gas readings are a false positive as confirmed by our bench testing. Unknowingly,
software tuners may be pushing things way leaner than they intended just going off of wideband readings!
What we also found is that a mass marketed transverse K04 kit out there is indeed using RS4 injectors. We
had a client come to us with running issues, and a first hand test of his injectors confirmed this.
So can the S3 injectors make more power with a good tune?
Anyone knows what is the flow rate on the APR injectors?
I did heard that spray pattern makes the RS4 a better option, but I dont see how?
USPSMotorsports where going to release a fuel system able to make 700whp, what is the status
on that?
R32 MKV
AUDI TTS GTX3576
Reply
Krieger · Registered
K Joined May 5, 2009
·
4,173 Posts
#2
·
Aug 18, 2010
where did you get that info?
according to this info, the S3 inj. can make more power due to more flow potential.
Also, no, the RS4s will not make more power because of the flow pattern. Apparently the opposite is true
since it's not all being burned in the combustion process. I used to think that the RS4s just made
everything super rich since ever BT ive seen in person has shot black smoke all over the place, but this
makes since if there is a ton of gas going into a focused space, and not being injected in the areas that
our engine was designed to use.
idk though, it looks almost like the flow pattern is limited due to maybe some blockage perhaps? I just
dont see why it would flow like such a weird pattern and not in a normal fan spray.
2006 Audi A3 | 2.0T | 6MT | APR Stage 2+ | Fully loaded ECU | FK grill | EJ CAI | BSH TBP |EJ DV Reloc. | Eurojet
TBE | EuroJet Catch Tank | Cross drilled and Slotted Rotors | EBC "Redstuff" Kevlar | Raceland Coilovers | Forge
Reply
GolfRS · Registered
G Joined Feb 4, 2006
·
4,155 Posts
#3
·
Aug 18, 2010
Ding ding ding !!!!
Round two !!!
Reply
CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi · Registered
C Joined Apr 4, 2007
·
3,202 Posts
#4
·
Aug 18, 2010
Anyone remember this thread?
http://forums.fourtitude.com/showthread.php?4946733-Big-Turbo-Software&p=66559391&viewfull=1
Or this post?
LEWXCORE said: 
Dude aren't you the same guy that went around ranting about how s3 injectors flow more than rs4's?? forgive me if
i'm mistaken. As far as I could see last summer when i built my car, revo advocates and chris@revo informed me that
their gt3071 file was not intended to be safe past ~350hp. I believe it was preset to 18psi or so on the n75 and fuel
trims were limited. If you're telling me a couple tweeks on the SPS to run as rich as possible and maybe some timing
advance for meth can get you up to or past 500 safely then I personally have been very misled by revo and our
forum... i might even buy the revo file for chets and gigs if that's a case because getting customer service from uni
right now is like watching a bunch of deets trying to fk a doorknob.
heehee
Let's see what else I am right about. Time will only tell.
Reply
·
544 Posts

Discussion Starter
·
#5
·
Aug 18, 2010
I just sold my S3 injectors last week, but would like to do some tests...
R32 MKV
AUDI TTS GTX3576
Reply
·
3,202 Posts
#6
·
Aug 18, 2010
Krieger said: 
where did you get that info?
AWE conducted this experiment.
Reply
Arin@APR · Vendor
Joined Jul 29, 2008
·
21,124 Posts
#7
·
Aug 18, 2010
(Edited)
CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi said: 
AWE conducted this experiment.
The information they shared is not correct.
RS4 injectors outflow the S3 injectors when testing at the proper fuel pressure. Their junior injector test
stand is not capable of testing at the correct operating pressure. The formula they used to calculate the
flow rates at the proper pressure is incorrect.
So can the S3 injectors make more power with a good tune?
Unmodified S3 injectors are not capable of flowing as much fuel as the RS4 injectors, therefor your
potential to make more power on s3 injectors will be lower than RS4 injectors.
Anyone knows what is the flow rate on the APR injectors?
Sorry, I wish I could share this information with the community but the APR Injectors (Modified S3) is
closely protected by our engineering department.
I did heard that spray pattern makes the RS4 a better option, but I dont see how
The RS4 Spray patterns is not perfectly designed for the 2.0T FSI and as such has some side effects.
Some of the side effects listed above by AWE are not related to the spray pattern. The spray pattern is in
no way a benefit and in no way makes it a better option.
Reply
·
544 Posts

Discussion Starter
·
#8
·
Aug 18, 2010
Arin@APR said: 
Sorry, I wish I could share this information with the community but the APR Injectors (Modified S3) is closely
protected by our engineering department.
I think APR would have a huge market to sell those injectors if they can outflow the RS4s. Why haven't
you guys think of sell them separately and make lots of money?
R32 MKV
AUDI TTS GTX3576
Reply
Krieger · Registered
K Joined May 5, 2009
·
4,173 Posts
#9
·
Aug 18, 2010
because another company could get their hands on it and do a knock off. It sucks though. Id pick some
up with my BT build coming up.
2006 Audi A3 | 2.0T | 6MT | APR Stage 2+ | Fully loaded ECU | FK grill | EJ CAI | BSH TBP |EJ DV Reloc. | Eurojet
TBE | EuroJet Catch Tank | Cross drilled and Slotted Rotors | EBC "Redstuff" Kevlar | Raceland Coilovers | Forge
Reply
FSIGTI · Registered
F J i d O t 9 2006 41 P t
F
Joined Oct 9, 2006
·
41 Posts
#10
·
Aug 18, 2010
Krieger said: 
because another company could get their hands on it and do a knock off. It sucks though. Id pick some up with my
BT build coming up.
This cannot be the reason as another company would have already purchased an APR Stage 3 and
copied the injectors already..
Reply
Joined Apr 4, 2007
·
3,202 Posts
C
#11
·
Aug 18, 2010
Until someone (individual or company) proves AWEs experiment invalid, I'm still running with their
empirical evidence.
Reply
AL@PagParts.com · Registered
A Joined Oct 23, 2008
·
2,534 Posts
#12
·
Aug 18, 2010
We've been running modified S3 injectors since 06/07... Pag/Tapp GTI runs them
Pag Parts
Turbocharger Systems, OEM Parts / Fabrication
Reply
·
544 Posts

Discussion Starter
·
#13
·
Aug 18, 2010
AL@PagParts.com said: 
Do you sell them? What are they flow capabilities?
R32 MKV
AUDI TTS GTX3576
Reply
alva8193 · Registered
Joined May 13, 2009
·
403 Posts
A
#14
·
Aug 18, 2010
im also very curious about this, whats the cost or config?
Reply
·
3,202 Posts
#15
·
Aug 18, 2010
I thought tapp was using modded RS4 injectors
Reply
AL@PagParts.com · Registered
A Joined Oct 23, 2008
·
2,534 Posts
#16
·
Aug 18, 2010
We had used several different kinds of injectors. At the time (3yrs ago), there wasnt equipment that you
can easily acquire to test these injectors. Thinking about building a test fixture in the very near future,
but we had opened up the nozzle a certain percentage that allowed us to achieve in the mid 400's. As far
as I know, Eurodyne was the first to tune these.
Pag Parts
Turbocharger Systems, OEM Parts / Fabrication
Reply
EL_3grab · Premium Member

Joined Mar 25, 2006
·
575 Posts
#17
·
Aug 18, 2010
We had used several different kinds of injectors. At the time (3yrs ago), there wasnt equipment that you can easily
acquire to test these injectors. Thinking about building a test fixture in the very near future these
Todd@AWE said the only way to have a proper affordable larger injector is to modify the S3
Props to APR of being ahead since 2006, that says a lot :thumbup:
Reply
Arin@APR · Vendor
Joined Jul 29, 2008
·
21,124 Posts
#18
·
Aug 18, 2010
CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi said: 
Until someone (individual or company) proves AWEs experiment invalid, I'm still running with their empirical
evidence.
How bout the hundreds of big turbo cars running RS4 injectors once the S3 injectors became the
limiting factor?
Reply
yvrnycracer · Registered
Y Joined Apr 16, 2007
·
2,654 Posts
#19
·
Aug 18, 2010
(Edited)
this thread needs to be tossed into the black hole... although it could provide some good entertainment
like Version 1 did... :laugh::laugh:
And just for consideration... what is the details for the TSI injectors? Seeing that both K04 and Stage 3
kits don't need any sort of upgraded fueling... where are their limits?!
2007 GLI - Built 2.0TFSI DSG w/ 3071R, LSD, BBK, Ultralows - gathering dust
2010 Touareg TDI - Highline, Sport Pkg, Tech Pkg - SOLD
Reply
rracerguy717 · Registered
R Joined Apr 8, 2003
·
7,002 Posts
#20
·
Aug 18, 2010
Arin@APR said: 
How bout the hundreds of big turbo cars running RS4 injectors once the S3 injectors became the limiting factor?
The rs4 injectors spray pattern will allow you to run a leaner A/F without prob with knock IMO because
of the saturation.
My car on APR 100 octane program spraying very little water in w/m kit pulls little to no timing the 100
octane tune seems alittle leaner (little smoke @ WOT ) compaired to the 93 program (which some times
alot of smoke @ WOT). I bet when the air temps are not extreme the 100 octane program will run well in
my car with 93 in the tank with the rs4 injectors .
Arnold taking the car tommorow to freshen the motor up with rings and put a set of his brute rods and
coating bearing ,will see how the spray pattern if any effected the inside of the motor after 40K miles
with rs4 injectors in place . Then Im ready for future HP uprades ( cams, intake manifold , more
aggressive SW. Bob.G
Read below about mine and other fsi stage 3 owners bad experience and poor results with APR and there Stage 3
Kits. http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3761751-My-APR-Stage-3-dyno-runs
Reply
1 - 20 of 41 Posts 1 2 3
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider
creating a new thread.
Join the discussion
Continue with Facebook
Continue with Google
or
sign up with email
Home
 Forums
 Technical (VW & Audi)
 2.0T FSI, TSI, and TFSI (EA113…

Home About Us Terms of Use Privacy Policy Help Business Directory Contact Us
Grow Your Business
NEW 
VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada
The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo
vwvortex.com is an independent Volkswagen enthusiast website owned and operated by VerticalScope Inc.
Content on vwvortex.com is generated by its users. vwvortex.com is not in any way affiliated with
Volkswagen AG

Stock Vs S3 Vs RS4 Injectors SOME GOOD INFO - VW Vortex V2

Uploaded by

Document Information

Original Title

Copyright

Available Formats

Share this document

Share or Embed Document

Sharing Options

Did you find this document useful?

Is this content inappropriate?

Copyright:

Available Formats

Stock Vs S3 Vs RS4 Injectors SOME GOOD INFO - VW Vortex V2

Uploaded by

Copyright:

Available Formats

6/7/22, 10:50 AM Stock vs S3 vs RS4 injectors SOME GOOD INFO | VW Vortex - Volkswagen Forum

I dont really get this info:

Stock = 1080 cc/min

RS4 = 1091 cc/min

still being learned.

So can the S3 injectors make more power with a good tune?

Anyone knows what is the flow rate on the APR injectors?

AUDI TTS GTX3576

where did you get that info?

Ding ding ding !!!!

Round two !!!

Anyone remember this thread?

AUDI TTS GTX3576

AWE conducted this experiment.

The information they shared is not correct.

So can the S3 injectors make more power with a good tune?

Anyone knows what is the flow rate on the APR injectors?

AUDI TTS GTX3576

Turbocharger Systems, OEM Parts / Fabrication

Do you sell them? What are they flow capabilities?

AUDI TTS GTX3576

im also very curious about this, whats the cost or config?

I thought tapp was using modded RS4 injectors

Turbocharger Systems, OEM Parts / Fabrication

EL_3grab · Premium Member

2010 Touareg TDI - Highline, Sport Pkg, Tech Pkg - SOLD

Join the discussion

Continue with Facebook

Continue with Google

The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo

You might also like