Robert Hoff Oral History Interview

SEDC 725 Prof. Strickland November 23, 2004

Interview with Shaku Joseph Jarman

Joseph Jarman is a founding member of the Art Ensemble of Chicago, a prominent and influential avant-garde jazz group formed in the late 1960s. He continued to record and tour with the AEC until his semi-retirement from music in the early 1990s, when he was ordained as a Jodo Shinshu Buddhist priest, and began to teach Buddhism full time. Sensei Jarman is also a godan (fifth degree black belt) in the Japanese martial art of Aikido. He runs the Jikishinkan Aikido Dojo and Direct Mind Zendo in Brooklyn, New York. I interviewed Sensei Jarman at his home on Sunday, November 14, 2004. The transcript begins as we were talking about the influence of his teacher and mentor, Reverend Gyoko Saito, on his musical development. RH: SJJ: RH: SJJ: Id like to start further back, and then well get to that point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, O.K., start wherever youd like. How about the AACM? How did you first get involved with the Association for Ah, we ah we were students, and in the sixties it was, ah, a very hard time politically. Lot of things were, were going on, and ah, three important leaders, John F. Kennedy, Martin Luther King, and Malcolm X were assassinated, and ah, John F. Kennedys brother also was assassinated, and there was a lot of stress and anxiety because of the Vietnamese War and everything. So it was a very tight time, and we were, a bunch of us were in school at Wilson Junior College with Professor Richard Wang, and once a week we would go down to this guy Muhal Richard Abrams band, and ah, we would play, anything. And he suggested that we bring, that we all write stuff and bring it for the band to play. And, ah, we said o.k. And that was going on for about, oh, maybe just a year or so. And then we had this meeting, and at this meeting, um, everyone wasnt invited, but a lot were, I was one of the ones invited, and at this meeting it was discussed that how we could do concerts and help each other, ah, develop our music and feel positive about everything because everything was not so positive for us, you know, during that time. So we all agreed, and we wanted to form this nonprofit organization that was beneficial for everyone, and we did, and it was named the Association for the Advancement of Creative Musicians, AACM. And, um, we had ten rules. Oh yeah? Yeah. What were those? Ah, I dont remember all ten of them now because its been so long ago, but they were positive rules that we had to follow. You know, no anger, no negative energy, positive, everything had to be positive. So, and we were o.k., and we began to perform every Sunday,

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and it was very, very beneficial, cause everyone was able to get something done. And also, we formed a school for children, because there were a lot of children in the community, South Side of Chicago, that didnt have the opportunity to get serious music education, you know. So we formed this childrens instruction committee, and everybody, you know, helped out. And we gave instruments and gave time to instruct. And, by the way, thats still going on, its been going on for, next yearll be, this is the 39th year of the AACM, next yearll be the 40th. RH: SJJ: Are there any big celebrations, or ah Oh yeah, every year theres ah, well every year here in New York, every month there are concerts, ah, I dont know if you know about them, but there are concerts every month, not in the Spring, but in the winter and fall and the winter and spring. But summer, because the activity and stuff, spring and summer theyre dismissed, because many of the people work, travel around, spring and summer, to perform in other places. And in Chicago, its still very, very strong going on there. The in Chicago, the school is still going, ah, and the organization is still going. Here we dont have the school, but we do have the organization. So now, your first recording, was it Song For? Was that your first recording? Yes, um hmm. What do you remember about that, recording that record? Well, um, I could search I could search and find documents on it, but it was ah, it was Song For and it was a big band was written for Song for Christopher who was a young pianist that I had been working with, and he made his transition That was, ah, Christopher Gaddy? Christopher Gaddy, made his transition, and ah, then, ah there was a, you know, smaller group after that. And ah, well, it was just very exciting to ah, be able to write music and play it. And we had been, I had been writing and playing for some time, and I had been also studying music, ah, with Professor Wang, me and a whole bunch of us who were AACM members, we studied music with Professor Wang, and we studied music with Muhal Richard Abrams. So we had two we had the traditional approach and the creative approach. Interesting. Yeah. But Professor Wang had been a young trumpet player before he became a music teacher, and he loved, quote, jazz. So, he had all of this, he got into trouble, because he wanted all of his students to be aware of what jazz was. And, he got in trouble. Really Ah, yeah. But he Cause it wasnt classical?

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Right, it wasnt classical music, and it wasnt in any of the programs. See, he would have, like during the breaks, there were no classes between 12:00 and 3:00, so he would have just a special class from 1:00 to 2:30, and invite who he wanted to come in there for that. And, also, ah but the director chewed him out one day. And, also, he would have jam sessions once a month. Wow. And invite, not students, but non-student musicians to come in to the University and play, to the college and play, with the regular students. Thats how we met Muhal actually. Really! Yeah, cause he was invited to come. And, ah so thats, thats how Thankfully he was a risk-taker, it sounds like Um hmm. Experimented a lot Oh yeah, yeah. How about the Art Ensemble how was that formed? Well, after I lost Christopher, I also lost ah, the bass player mmm Charles, Charles Clark. And I lost both of them, and I was very distressed and out of it, so ah these guys, Lester and Roscoe, asked me to come and play with them. So I did. And ah, that was very healing. However, in 1969, Lester came to me and he came to everyone actually, individually and he came over to me and he said, ah, I got a ticket for you on a beautiful ship to go to Paris, to do music. You want to accept it or not? And of course [laughs], I had no choice, I had to accept it How could you say no? Yeah. So I accepted that, and we all did, and we went to ah went on this beautiful ship, the USS Queen Elizabeth, and it was the last trip of the Queen Elizabeth from the United States Is that right? Yeah, from the United States to England, and ah, that was in 1969. So we went there, then we took ah went across to France, on down to Paris. And we got to Paris, and we were there for just a little while, and [snaps finger] boom, it was like that, there was a French, ah agent, couple of agents actually we had been invited. So we were, we had this beautiful, had immediately rented this house in the suburbs, in [inaudible], and the guy came out immediately and asked us, interviewed, and said, Whats the name of the group? Uh huh.

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And the name of the group was Art Ensemble of Chicago [laughs]. Im curious, why, why did you guys go to France, was that because you felt It was by invitation. O.k. And here at the time, the music that we were playing, and all of our associates, were not really accepted Thats what I It was very difficult. Right. However France, was very big on accepting contemporary music of all forms, as well as contemporary art of all forms, and is still that way. And so when we went there, there were a whole lot of ah, so-called avant-garde American musicians there. And it was just incredible, Johnny Griffen was there, Archie Shepp was there, oh, I cant go on, it was just so many. So you were finally getting the recognition Oh [snaps finger] just like that. We were and then we played for two weeks inside Paris in a club, seven nights a week, for two weeks. And after that, the French government gave us French government identification and French government employment. [laughs] Wow! Just like that, two weeks Just like that [laughs]. Wow. Yeah, that how we got the house in [inaudible]. Its interesting that you started talking about, at the beginning, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, and the sort of troubled times. Im thinking about you mentioned the Vietnam War. The music was changing so much at this time. Im wondering, to what extent do you think that was a response to changes going on in America Yes the Civil Rights movement I think so the student movement

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because the Civil Rights movement, the student movement, and the anti-war movement, all of those movements were very creative, and energy-generated, and people associated very committed, to ah, and so it made a very strong society. Regardless of what position you were in, you were very strong if you were for, or very strong if you were against. Either way was very strong. So, it was a very beneficial time. And actually it was a very good time. Cause it made a lot of very positive energy for our country. Yeah. Lets maybe switch up to How did you first get interested in Buddhism? How did that? A friend of mine, ah, in Chicago. How did I first get interested in Buddhism? Right. Well, when I was discharged from the military, I was mute, and I couldnt talk for a whole year, actually. Wow. And ah, I went to, I had family in Tucson, Arizona. And theres a military hospital there, so I went to that hospital, and I mean, I went to Tucson and I went to that hospital for help. But not much was happening there. And I just, in Tucson I got me a little room, I was quiet, I couldnt talk, and I got me a little job handling taking stuff in and out of the Walgreens store there. And ah, there was a library right down the street from the hospital. And I would go to that library every day. But I would never talk. I would just go in there and sit down, look [shuffles papers]. If I see something interesting Id read part of that, go see what else, read part of that. Then one day, the guy in the store said here, take this book, I want you to have it. And he gave me this book and it was called Teachings of the Buddha. And, ah, I still wasnt talking. But I opened this book, and read this book, and it said, you are responsible for yourself. No gods, no good, no bad, is, ah, at fault. Its your fault, of how, what you decide to do and how you do it. And you can be very positive, and you can have a wonderful life if you realize your uniqueness. This was that Buddha talking stuff. And I looked at it hmm. So a friend of mine was up in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, sent me a letter and said you oughta come up here, it might be beneficial. O.K. So I went up to Milwaukee, and ah, got a dishwashing job there, stayed in the YMCA up there. But I went to a hospital up there too. And this young guy, who was actually crazy I thought, got me to talking, this young doctor. He was a young doctor, and he was you know, like 25 or 30 years old, and he was a Buddhist guy. But he was ah, incredible, and he got me to talking. And ah, so after that I left there, went back to Chicago, and thats when I got into everything back in Chicago. Wow. So thats how I got into Buddhism. And after I got back to Chicago well, I told you about the friends taking me up there for the Karate lessons ah, and after that, another friend of mine, Loraine Black, would go up there every Wednesday for just a conference, and youd sit around a table and theyd talk. And you know, and I would sit around the table and I would listen [gestures as if looking around listening]. They would talk. Have any questions? I didnt have any at the time. And then couple of years later 1969 is when

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we went to Europe, and in Paris, in Europe, in France, I was so, ah, on the material level, super successful, just incredible. However emotionally, I felt kinda bad, you know? So I wrote Reverend Saito a letter and told him how awful it was, I mean, it felt good to have a whole bunch of money and whole bunch of everything nice, you know, beautiful instruments from the Selmer Company, and everything. Because they loved our music, and anything you could imagine, if we I want this, BOOM! it would appear. RH: SJJ: Wow. Ah, anyway, I was completely not too well with it. And I wrote him this letter, and he wrote me a letter back that I still have, I wish I could find it to show it to you. But it was super encouraging, and ah, you know, it made me go [snaps fingers] like that, and I ah, clicked right in [laughs]. So basically, thats it, thats how I got into Buddhism. And Im thinking about the thing you read earlier, the what did it say, it said something like the music the problem with the music of Joseph is Joseph Jarman. So Yeah! maybe we can connect the music to your Buddhist Well, the problem, that the egotistical orientation that individuals have, and in that case thats what he was talking about, because music is actually a universal expression, which I found out later on. But ah, and many of my associates now, for example, you could call them and they would just talk about themselves and what they did and what theyre doing and how nobody else is important Im sure youve heard a lot of that. So, that was a tremendous change for me, and a tremendous help. Um, maybe just a couple more Uh huh. Improvisation. Um hmm. I think it plays a role in Aikido Oh yes, absolutely. and certainly in the music Yes. so is there a connection there that you could talk about? Yes, absolutely. There is an improvisation in life, actually. We have everything that we do we have a specific schedule, but as were going, things will change. Were riding our bike, and we go down this street, generally every day, and its cool because theres not a whole bunch traffic, no people, no nothing, everythings fine. However, we go one day,

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same time, and we turn, and theres a big accident, fire trucks, all kinds of stuff. And we have to instantly alter our path to get where were going. Or, were going to a store we go to all the time to get specific merchandise. We go there and its completely out of the merchandise. We have to either find another a replacement for the merchandise, or go to another store that we know of that has the merchandise were looking for. And we decide whether we if we have time to go, or to just alternate. Often well alternate, then well be very sad, and well realize that we should go to the original, and later on every time that happens well go to the alternative. So, this is just the kind of way that it is. Ah does that answer? RH: SJJ: RH: SJJ: RH: SJJ: RH: Yeah! It does. [laughs] I know exactly what you mean. O.K. John Coltrane once said John Coltrane! yeah. He said, I think music is an instrument. It can create the initial thought patterns that can change the thinking of the people. Do you agree that music can change the way people think and act? Yes. Absolutely. John Coltrane is, was, and is, still, ah number one of my musical gurus. And ah, it was way back when, I heard this first record of his and it changed my whole perspective on music, and it changed my because I was living in a building with another musician, and whole bunch of other musicians, it was like nothing but musicians in there. But we were all young and crazy and wild. But he wrote this song on this published this LP, and somebody brought it over there and played it, and it changed not only my whole perspective on life, but everybody in the room. And that was [hums the lyric] A love supreme, a love supreme, a love supreme, a love supreme. And ah, that was absolutely incredible, cause it was super positive, and thats what life is about. Its about all the elements that are super positive, not the elements that are super negative. Ah like that, over there on the wall, on this side here, those are all very super positive associates of mine, my mother, good friends, good friends, and two teachers, and theyre all super positive. Even though theyve made their transitions, for me, theyre still super positive and still alive. Their spirits carry me right on through. So thats, like an idea, of what its about. Sensei, thank you so much, its really been wonderful to sit down and talk with you Well, I never knew it would go like this, I would go like this, cause when I moved to New York, Toyoda Sensei told me I had to, ah, you know, practice. So I went to several dojos to practice, and he said, no, youve go to form your own dojo. So he told me to go meet this Zen guy up on 72nd Street between Broadway and Park and I went up there and met him, and he allowed us to practice aikido, but we also were required to practice Zazen. So that was wonderful. And ah so not very long after that, we got a house here in Brooklyn, over on

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Adelphi Street, and in the basement of the house, instead of having anybody live there, I turned that into a dojo, and that was the first dojo. When Toyoda Sensei came, and it was just about, twice the size of this space right here RH: SJJ: RH: SJJ: RH: SJJ: RH: SJJ: RH: SJJ: Um hmm. no bigger. And he said this is the smallest dojo Ive ever been in. [laughs] And it was fine, cause ah well lets see who worked out, you know Ken Yamazaki, and I dont know if you know McKaley Sure, sure. They were the first and you know Richard Richard. They were the three oh and Adam Oh. they were all the beginners there. And there were a few other beginners there, ah, that unfortunately left. But they were all students, not all, Mickey wasnt he lived right across the street but Adam, Richard were students at Pratt. And Ken lived on Willoughby down the street. And anyway, they all got interested, and that was the super beginning. Well, certainly your life has touched so many others Sensei Oh, Ive got a lot of been touched by a lot of lives too. Anyway, when he told me I had to do the dojo, and then I got ordained in 1990, ah, it was absolutely incredible, so I ah, walked all over the neighborhood, and over there on Smith Street, found this place here, and moved in there and turned it into a dojo and a Buddhist association, a Buddhist temple, sort of. And actually in the next three years, I had hoped to get some land to actually build a temple and a dojo all together before I make my transition. This is my 67th year, and I dont have too much time, so I want to get that going on. And I think thats why, one of the reasons, that were gonna have somebody from California and Chicago come every three months starting next year, to enhance whats going on there. And then because some years ago when we were looking for a place, they gave us some money to buy the place, which we still have in the bank [phone rings takes call]. O.K., boy does time go fast. Yeah. Alright, so Well, thank you so much. Thank you so much!

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