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Knight Saber Feb 17 2009, 08:26 AM

Perhaps it's because I started with 1st edition, but the idea of hermetic mages having
mentor spirits in 4th ed. seems odd to me. Sure, it's legal, but is it "right?"

The whole hermetic tradition is based on a rational approach using the scientific
method. Everything can be explained and quantified, eventually. So having a big part of
a mage's life be an unknowable spirit doesn't seem to add up. It's like Stephen Hawking
making his discoveries with the help of the spirit of the ocean, or a talking bear or Odin.
It seems like the first thing a hermetic would do is try to figure out exactly what the
voice in his head is and how it can teach him new magic that he himself doesn't know.
Shamans don't mind this sort of thing... for them, it's just the way things are, part of
the natural order, but it strikes me as the antithesis of the hermetic path.

Who's run a hermetic mage with a mentor spirit? How did it go?

Synner667 Feb 17 2009, 08:33 AM

For me and others, the whole Hermetics and Shamen are just flavours of the same
magic system is one of the biggest changes between versions of SR.

I maintain those differences, because they're more than just flavour.

Degausser Feb 17 2009, 08:50 AM

You could just think about it otherwise. Instead of saying 'Mentor Spirit' say 'Intensive
study.' Hermetic mages, instead of having mentor spirits, have areas that they are very
good at (representitive by extra dice) and they have certain personality quirks, such as
tendencies towards actions (like being vindictive or flying into a rage) or areas that are
not too good at (rep. by negative dice pools.) Just have to rewrite the fluff and
everything works out fine.

Hagga Feb 17 2009, 11:21 AM

To Hermetics, these spirits are things that help them to explain their science. Muses, an
extension of their mind, beings they can learn the science of the world *from*. They
might eventually label them as psychic civilization avatar manascape imprints, but
these still help them explain the world, learn their figures and diagrams.

Something like that.

Synner Feb 17 2009, 12:03 PM

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It helps if you don't make the mistake of identifying Mentor Spirits with Totems/Idols
and think of them more in terms of abstract archetypes that each tradition interprets in
their own way. A lot of people seem to have a problem with SR4's common core
mechanics for all magical traditions and overlook the fact that each tradition remains a
distinct paradigm, cosmology and perspective on magic. Mentor Spirits for followers of
the Hermetic tradition could be expressions of subconscious Jungian archetypes (to use
a reference that goes back to SR1), they can be updated Renaissance
Hermetic/Qabbalistic dominions, they could be mental constructs/ideals, they could be
avatars of initiated masters and muses that have Ascended in the Tree of Life, and they
could be Faustian-type spirit patrons, or they could be incarna of facets of the collective
subconscious imprinted on the Gaiasphere. Take your pick (though the approach should
reflect the Hermetic school the Hermetic mage hails from).

Degausser Feb 17 2009, 12:22 PM

While we are on the subject, it says in the book that a mage can only summon 5 types
of spirits (For hermetics, it's fire earth air wind water man). And it says that Hermetic
Mages summon Fire for combat.

But what if I am going up against a bunch of guys with fire-retardant armor, or a bunch
of bots that won' be affected by fire? Can I summon an earth spirit to fight instead? I'm
confused about this point.

Hagga Feb 17 2009, 12:27 PM

Yes. Yes you can. Spirit alignments are for things like aid sorcery.

AllTheNothing Feb 17 2009, 01:03 PM

Once I had a phoenix hermetic mage, he almost died in a car accident, the same
accident killed his father and left maimed his sister, who had lost the use of an arm and
both the legs; he did grow up watching hers mother slaving herself away to feed him
and his sister (low, near squatter, lifestyle). The day he awakened his desire of a new
(better) life came to have its own life in the form of the phoenix (which later became
the magician ally spirit).

paws2sky Feb 17 2009, 01:11 PM

You can also look as Hermetic mentor spirits as astral beings/presences the magician
has allied with. This could be as simple as making a deal (You scratch my back, I'll
scratch yours.). Maybe it has something to do with the character's awakening (see the
Phoenix magician, above). Maybe the Hermetic doesn't practice "purist" magical theory
(they've blended in something from another tradition). Or maybe the magician is just
slightly bonkers.

-paws

ornot Feb 17 2009, 01:43 PM

I like that mentor spirits are not exclusively animal totems anymore. Sure, it would
make no sense for a hermetic mage to commune with and follow Bear, but striking a

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deal with The Adversary is perfectly feasible.

Personally I've been toying with a house-rule to have each tradition require a specific
geas, to further distinguish different traditions from each other. Incantation for
Hermetics, performance for Shamans, prayer for the various religious traditions etc.
Anybody care to comment?

Synner667 Feb 17 2009, 01:49 PM

I've always been a fan of the packages that HERO uses for Characters.
A Mage would take the Mage package, which could include skills advantages,
disadvantages, limits, bonuses, etc at a slight discount to the overall cost.

The_Vanguard Feb 17 2009, 02:08 PM

Mentor spirits also go very well with theurges. Christian theurgic magicians view the
world as being governed by fixed rules that can be analyzed and understood, while
often allying themselves with a "guardian angel" or dedicating their magic capabilities
to a higher religious power.

AWOL_Seraphim Feb 17 2009, 03:09 PM

Most of the points I wanted to make have already been said, so I'll just go with an
example of my own. (Keep in mind that I know that there are lots of traditions in Street
Magic, but I don't have it, so I just simulate most of them using the core book as
reference.)

Since Hermetism doesn't just represent western ceremonial magic, playing a mage with
a mentor spirit could represent:
-a Faustian mage (mentioned above)
-a Christian theurge blessed by the Archangel Michael (Hermetism + Firebringer or
Dragonslayer)
-a Gardnerian Wiccan (Hermetism + Moon Maiden)
-a Chinese geomancer (hermetism + you get the point...)

If you only think of Hermetism as western ceremonial magic, adding a mentor spirit
may not be a perfect match, but as you can see, it does wonders when creating a
non-traditional hermetist. It may not be perfect, but it works (for me at least.)

BlueMax Feb 17 2009, 03:59 PM

QUOTE (Synner @ Feb 17 2009, 04:03 AM)

It helps if you don't make the mistake of identifying Mentor Spirits with Totems/Idols
and think of them more in terms of abstract archetypes that each tradition interprets
in their own way. A lot of people seem to have a problem with SR4's common core
mechanics for all magical traditions and overlook the fact that each tradition remains
a distinct paradigm, cosmology and perspective on magic. Mentor Spirits for followers
of the Hermetic tradition could be expressions of subconscious Jungian archetypes (to

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use a reference that goes back to SR1), they can be updated Renaissance
Hermetic/Qabbalistic dominions, they could be mental constructs/ideals, they could
be avatars of initiated masters and muses that have Ascended in the Tree of Life, and
they could be Faustian-type spirit patrons, or they could be incarna of facets of the
collective subconscious imprinted on the Gaiasphere. Take your pick (though the
approach should reflect the Hermetic school the Hermetic mage hails from).

Everything in the above quote is correct for open minded and open armed players who
are ready to accept the changes in fourth edition.

And yet, its absolutely wrong for older dogmatic players. We, as I am a long time
player or old player, need to get over the fact that everything is unified. Yes, I can see
that Synner went into a wonderful long winded explanation of the color differences but I
know that you lurkers and whiners aren't after the color ( I have been both ). Calling
for the days of yore when Shamans were thought to need a crutch to use magic? You
are after distinct mechanic related to spirits for Shamans, powerful obvious shamanic
mask and elementals for Hermetics. Feeling your pain for years and struggling against
it, I have some advice

House rule it, or get over it.

I've tried both and after successful counseling, I am over it. I have embraced the
simplified magic system. It runs on the same core mechanic. Everyone at the table
needs to learn one mechanic, and because of that I have more new Shadowrun players.
This, is a good thing.

BlueMax
/ who still needs to get over these new fangled Technomancers
// played and old school technomancer 19 years ago
/// doesnt see any reason for a new fancy Technomancer (dogmatic++)

Speed Wraith Feb 17 2009, 04:44 PM

Heck, if I played a Hermetic, I'd probably focus a great deal of my research on the
study of the so-called "mentor spirits". They obviously exist, as any rational mind can
observe the unnatural grace of a cat shaman and the enhanced control certain mages
exert over spirits. Acquiring a mentor spirit, however such a feat is actually
accomplished, would be a top priority in conducting research...

Demonseed Elite Feb 17 2009, 05:30 PM

It's a troubling change to get used to if your framework is earlier editions of

Shadowrun. But keep in mind that earlier editions of Shadowrun had a very limited
view of magical traditions. Shamanism was pretty much Native American Shamanism.
Hermeticism was one catch-all flavor of rational, Western magic.

Early SR's distinctions between shamanism and hermeticism tend to fall apart, or at
least get unwieldy, when you add a lot of other global and historical traditions into the
mix. Which is one of the reasons it was changed for SR4.

My perspective has always been looking at the SR magical traditions from a real,

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historical perspective. In that perspective, mentor spirits for Hermetics can make
perfect sense.

hazemyth Feb 18 2009, 01:49 AM

In actual hermetic/gnostic philosophy, some believe that people have a daemon, genius
or even 'holy guardian angel'. Such beings are individual to each person, like the
Jungian anima (to which they are often likened), and are either formless or
anthropomorphic. They either have no names or have magical sounding nonsense
names (Crowley called his Aiwass). I would allow a Hermetic magician to choose a
Mentor Spirit and fluff it has his personal daemon.

Prospero Feb 18 2009, 02:15 AM

Actually, the unified magic system that allows for the creation of new magic traditions
that better fit various world traditions is maybe my favorite part of 4th ed (I've also
been playing since 1st ed). It really allows the difference between traditions to stand
out, IMO. A Crowley-esque Black Magician and a classical Arabic alchemist, for
example, can really have some major difference besides just the fluff, whereas before
the fluff might have been most of it.

Anyway, lots of good examples in this thread - Faust, Cowley, a personal idyllic
image... Also, Hermetics vary in terms of how 'scientific' they are, but at some point, all
but the most obstinate have to accept that there is more in heaven and earth than they
can account for using other branches of science. What about an acheology-obsessed
hermetic (perhaps a parageologist and/or spelunker) who hears the voice of Pluto in his
head (Dark King)? Would he turn down that knowledge and power because he couldn't
'prove' this ancient god exists? Yeah, hermetics look at things rationally, but magic still
isn't arithmetic. A good magician of any tradition trusts and follows the Talent first,
IMO, and then tries to explain it.

BlueMax Feb 18 2009, 02:38 AM

QUOTE (Prospero @ Feb 17 2009, 06:15 PM)

Actually, the unified magic system that allows for the creation of new magic traditions
that better fit various world traditions is maybe my favorite part of 4th ed (I've also
been playing since 1st ed). It really allows the difference between traditions to stand
out, IMO. A Crowley-esque Black Magician and a classical Arabic alchemist, for
example, can really have some major difference besides just the fluff, whereas before
the fluff might have been most of it.

Please describe the major mechanical differences.

Shinobi Killfist Feb 18 2009, 03:03 AM

I just view it as a pact of some kind and then it fits the hermetic flavor.

While I preferred the greater distinction of the earlier editions thematically, it is easier
and the traditions are balanced in this edition. Before Hermetics were a pile of suck on
a suck sandwich compared to Shamans.

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Need a rating X library to improve sorcery skill to X.

Spirits were no more powerful but took hours and tons of money to summon. Yeah the
I brought in 3 spirits for the fight in this clutch moment is cool, but not as cool as I can
summon a spirit any time to handle a wide variety of situations not just fighting.
Oh and then totem benefits were almost always better than the negatives.

Its easy to say the old way was better when you preferred playing shamans, but for
Hermetic fans the balance of 4e is a blessing.

Warlordtheft Feb 18 2009, 04:08 AM

QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Feb 17 2009, 12:30 PM)

Early SR's distinctions between shamanism and hermeticism tend to fall apart, or at
least get unwieldy, when you add a lot of other global and historical traditions into
the mix. Which is one of the reasons it was changed for SR4.

Once they started throwing out druids, vodoun, wicca and other possible paradigrams
for magic, the need for it came much clearer.

ThreeGee Feb 18 2009, 07:54 AM

QUOTE (Synner667 @ Feb 17 2009, 03:33 AM)

I maintain those differences, because they're more than just flavour.

The differences, flavour or not, aren't really historically accurate.

Dr John Dee was the quintessential Hermetic Mage, an accomplished mathematician

and geographer, advisor to Queen Elizabeth, he was regarded as one of the great
scientific minds of his day. He also spent a fair proportion of his life trying to
communicate with angels.

The word 'Hermetic' derives from a supernatural figure 'Hermes Trismegistus', a

combination of Hermes and Thoth, a god of magical knowledge.

The Hermetic magician as portrayed in early editions of SR never really existed anyway.

TheOOB Feb 18 2009, 08:36 AM

Hermetic mages would certainly have mentor spirits less often then other traditions,
but there is no reason they can't have one. As mentioned above, the spirit could be
something like a muse or esoteric concept rather then an embodied spirit. A hermetic
may have also made a deal with a spirit to help them learn magic(or perhaps a spirit
took interest in them and just won't leave them alone).

And keep in mind that just because the universities teach a structured, rational view of
magic, not every hermetic sees magic as just a bunch of math equations. While they
certainly use their equations, theories, and formulas to work their magic, a hermetic

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would have to be a fool not to realize the spiritual component of magic. The simple fact
that the shamans magic is just as effective of their own is proof of that, and any good
mage quickly learns that spirits do have a mind of their own and powers beyond what
they could ever hope for.

There are countless reasons why a hermetic mage might accept the help(or be forced
to be helped by) a powerful spirit. Sure some of the professors at MIT&T might scoff at
the idea of accepting such help from an elemental being that is by nature subservient
to mages(which is an opinion not all mages share natch), but when have students
always done what their teachers told them.

One other thing of note, I personally think that Christan theurgests are best
represented by the tradition of the same name, even if they come from a hermetic
order like the order of the golden dawn. Their magic is much more about a connection
with the angels and spirits(charisma) then about theories and complex formulas(logic).
Just my 2 nuyen.

Synner667 Feb 18 2009, 08:49 AM

QUOTE (ThreeGee @ Feb 18 2009, 07:54 AM)

The differences, flavour or not, aren't really historically accurate.

Dr John Dee was the quintessential Hermetic Mage, an accomplished mathematician

and geographer, advisor to Queen Elizabeth, he was regarded as one of the great
scientific minds of his day. He also spent a fair proportion of his life trying to
communicate with angels.

The word 'Hermetic' derives from a supernatural figure 'Hermes Trismegistus', a

combination of Hermes and Thoth, a god of magical knowledge.

The Hermetic magician as portrayed in early editions of SR never really existed

anyway.

Well, considering that I don't think SR v4 is meant to be an accurate historical

re-enactment, I'm not sure that repeatedly quoting "real" mages and magical traditions
is actually worthwhile...
...Especially as people pick and choose which bits of reality they want to include in SR.

It's a game.
It's a stereotypical representation of reality.

If you want absolute historical accuracy [which is fine, if that's what you want], then I
suggest that you apply that to all of SR - and disallow any "hand waving" to avoid those
awkward diversions from reality...
...And then not complain when much of the game falls apart and stops working because
SR does not and cannot accurately represent reality.

So make your mind up, use SR to represent reality or not - but don't pick and choose,
make some bits real and allow other bits to not be.

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TheOOB Feb 18 2009, 09:27 AM

Historical accuracy don't mean squat for magic. It's 2070, and magic has been around
for some over 40 years, what we used to know about magic is pretty much
meaningless, and practices from some traditions have been melded into others(hmm
that person can summon spirits but I can't...maybe if I copy them I will be able to do
that too.)

Also keep in mind that the mage tradition is more of a generic university mage then
any specific order.

Demonseed Elite Feb 18 2009, 01:13 PM

QUOTE (Synner667 @ Feb 18 2009, 03:49 AM)

Well, considering that I don't think SR v4 is meant to be an accurate historical

re-enactment, I'm not sure that repeatedly quoting "real" mages and magical
traditions is actually worthwhile...

Historical re-enactment, no, you're correct, SR4 isn't a historical re-enactment. But I
know Peter Taylor (Synner) is on the same page as I am when it came to the desire for
SR4's magic tradition system to be able to reflect historical magic traditions without the
mechanics needing to be rewritten (as they were for traditions like voudoun in SR3).
Peter and I wrote the traditions in Street Magic with that in mind and I know it was part
of the reason for changing the tradition system in SR4. Another reason being that the
new system is a lot more flexible to completely new and different traditions (not based
in history) than the original system was.

ThreeGee Feb 18 2009, 01:19 PM

QUOTE (Synner667 @ Feb 18 2009, 03:49 AM)

Well, considering that I don't think SR v4 is meant to be an accurate historical

re-enactment, I'm not sure that repeatedly quoting "real" mages and magical
traditions is actually worthwhile...
...Especially as people pick and choose which bits of reality they want to include in
SR.

It's a game.
It's a stereotypical representation of reality.

If you want absolute historical accuracy [which is fine, if that's what you want], then
I suggest that you apply that to all of SR - and disallow any "hand waving" to avoid
those awkward diversions from reality...
...And then not complain when much of the game falls apart and stops working
because SR does not and cannot accurately represent reality.

So make your mind up, use SR to represent reality or not - but don't pick and
choose, make some bits real and allow other bits to not be.

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I don't want it to mirror reality, I was replying to your post in which you insist that you
keep the old SR definitions of what Hermetics are, by pointing out that this definition
had no basis in reality. That actual Hermetic mages had things akin to Mentors.

My opinion is that by 2070 magical traditions are becoming so mixed, magic is so

personal, that these old definitions are irrelevant.

Hagga Feb 18 2009, 01:34 PM

The One Thing I cannot stand about the idea of mentor spirits is that if you irritate it it
takes away your magic. I love everything else about them, but good lord. I can't
imagine many hermetics find this idea hilarious, either. A shaman is likely to be "more
in tune" and prepared to accept the penalties - a mage probably wonders why this
bloody thing is interfering with his science.

hobgoblin Feb 18 2009, 01:44 PM

hey, if you dont like it, dont bargain with the demon

its not unheard of that a summoned being could start to interpret orders given in a very
literal manner. maybe such entities have a very strict take on contractual law?

Prospero Feb 19 2009, 06:34 AM

QUOTE (BlueMax @ Feb 18 2009, 03:38 AM)

Please describe the major mechanical differences.

In 3rd ed or before, both characters would have been hermetics, summoning the same
spirits and using the same drain mechanic, for example. Just the fluff of how their
magic worked would have differed. In SR 4, they will most likely have different classes
of spirits they can summon and different drain mechanics. Not to mention, some types
of characters that would have been hermetics in SR 3 could be created as posession
traditions, radically altering them. Those are pretty major mechanical differences.

BlueMax Feb 19 2009, 06:41 AM

QUOTE (Prospero @ Feb 18 2009, 10:34 PM)

In SR 4, they will most likely have different classes of spirits they can summon and
different drain mechanics.

The spirit restriction is a notable difference, I have to give you that. All of the "man"
type spirits have been prone to abuse by players I know. Most notably task spirits.
When you start getting optional powers (force 3? or greater?), the spirits provided
more and more of the same powers. On this note , I will say that I am way to nice and

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let folks design their own spirit sets, or modify them. I don't do possession so someone
went one of the possession paths but just kept the spirit types.

Drain Mechanics? Do you mean Drain stats? In any case the player can pick his stats
and they all have an unmodified 6 cap... I just don't see the difference.

jzn Feb 19 2009, 07:32 AM

I love that they tried to make it a modular system for creating traditions, I wish they
would have really gone with it.

Right now, as bluemax noted, the differences are on the smallish side. I'd love to see
more choices for making your tradition mechanically unique. It could be accomplished
by simply by restricting more facets of magic the way they did with the "5 spirits"
choice. You might have to choose between being able to summon instant or bound
spirits, or be able to do both, but not cast illusion spells. It was cool to have different
mages on the party with really significant differences in capabilities.

Going a little further with making traditions mechanically relevant would be great. It
would probably quash some old timers' complaints about the homogeneous feel of the
traditions.

TheOOB Feb 19 2009, 09:15 AM

One might say it is up to the player to make their tradition feel different. I personally
dislike having a whole bunch of rules for stuff like that. It discourages you from picking
the tradition you want for role play and encourages you to pick the best mechanics.

Demonseed Elite Feb 19 2009, 01:54 PM

Besides, there are avenues available to players and GMs to further customize traditions
through magical groups, metamagic techniques, geas restrictions, etc. They aren't built
right into the tradition mechanics (which I see as a good thing), but they can still be
applied to traditions by a player and the GM to add more detail.

BlueMax Feb 19 2009, 02:14 PM

QUOTE (TheOOB @ Feb 19 2009, 01:15 AM)

One might say it is up to the player to make their tradition feel different. I personally
dislike having a whole bunch of rules for stuff like that. It discourages you from
picking the tradition you want for role play and encourages you to pick the best
mechanics.

Let me be clear thaty they do have color material now to feel different. I am only
saying that mechanically there are only tiny differences. There are a plethora of colorful
writeups in fourth edition.

hobgoblin Feb 19 2009, 02:55 PM

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