Relate means property IP includes the property rights associated with product of the mind so if you want

to convert what comes out of your mind into property, then you do it through medium products
products you can call what comes out of your mind as ideas, protect ideas of certain types of financial
classify them into two types ideas ideas concrete abstract ideas ideas which you do not know how to
implement

Only concrete ideas but not abstract ideas have an idea of making a machine and then take you to Mars
what kind of ideas? mechanism of making machine travel to Mars, and by looking at the steps that I have
come up you believe that that machine can be made becomes so if I bring my to this level I have not
made that machine I can get protection to do it you don’t need to have any card you don’t need to have
any background you just need to have an idea that you can words, you have to make an argument that
your idea is capable of being implemented, and that argument must be accepted by the IP office that is
sufficient to convince a person you should be convinced that this can be anymore questions general is
used to refer to types or species that all of you are finding out earlier you said copyright mark intellectual
properties within the meaning of intellectual property there are different species, which protect certain
types of ideas, which of these species protect a different type of an idea or manifestation of the mind
when you have you have one of these or more than one of these generally protects specific
manufactures of ideas, different types of for example, include species, such as pattern copyrights rate
marks rates creates designs, traditional knowledge, and sofa. There are more than 15 different species of
these species has a lot, to protect pattern you have what is gone as a pattern act to protect, trademark
trademark act to protect copyright copyright act don’t have a particular act, but is thinking about passing
statute, passing legislation, specific particular type of in the next one hour 15 minutes or so we’ll talk
about five important types that are important for businesses. Now these types are normally present in
businesses some of them may have, two of them of them especially those which are knowledge and
technology sectors have what is the trademark logo can be a logo that is used in business specific that is
used to identify your business representation that is used to identify a business identify business. It
could be identifying the company or identifying the product that is sold by the company or it could be
identifying the service that is offered by the company and identify can be any kind of representation. It
can be a word it can be a logo. It can be a color. It can be an artwork it can be sound it can smell you
smell something and you smell it you identify particular that can be that source identified trademark
protect this identify association that this identifier has with the business among consumers so let’s say
you have a word as your trademark, which are your associated consumers to that product that
association is protected as the stronger the association, the stronger, trademark protection association
you are asking design of a product be a trademark product and a trademark as well design whether you
want to stop somebody from copying an example where somebody was able to stop. Examples
trademark includes how you dress up your product it could be a pack. Shape of your product it could be
the color of your product or any other way in which you dress up your.

Come and get the it can be protected as a trademark it can be protected as I think it has a particular
color and it has a particular way in which it is constructed right so that can be protected as a trademark it
can also be protected as other forms of IP we will discuss that when we get to those forms yeah so now
any more questions OK so now when you look at trademark protection example you are working in a
company and you are launching a new product or service or you are starting a company now how do you
decide what should be your trademark there is a system that has been established under the law which
provides you a framework and that framework defines or helps you define or you understand how strong
your trademark protection is going to be now what is this framework the law divides trademarks into
five categories category one are fanciful trademarks trademarks that are newly coined the words do not
exist in the dictionary but you newly coined a word trademarks like Kodak oh there can be arbitrary
trademarks the word exists already in the dictionary you have picked that word for your business but
that word has no link with your business like apple for computers there is no link between apples and
computers right this is arbitrary trademark so fanciful and arbitrary trademarks are the strongest
trademark they are inherently very strong so if you want to pick a very strong trademark to start with
then you would want to pick a fanciful or a or an arbitrary trademark then you have what are referred to
as suggestive trademarks trademarks that suggest what your business is for example Infosys just that
they're into information systems so power into it or into services relating to that right so with a bit of
imagination on the face of it you may not understand but with little bit of imagination you will be able to
understand what they are into these are these are suggestive trademarks they suggest these are not as
strong as Which describe what your let's say you are selling mangoes and you call it mango shop you are
describing what you are doing these are very very weak trademarks you normally don't get protected for
these trade right so you don't want to choose these types of trade for descriptive trademarks to become
valuable trademarks you need to build what is referred to as distinctiveness they describe your business
but you have been using it so well you have been advertising it very well you have been selling so many
products that after a period of time people link that only with your The moment you had a question but let me complete
this so what is a descriptive trademark how do when you get into details what exactly is something that is considered as descriptive a trademark that describes the technical features

the trademark that describes the functionality a trademark that is product or service Trademark that describes any of these these are descriptive trademark so now the question here

is he sleep well scribing The product matrix. Yes. So our matrix is used for sleeping. Is that is that their primary role? That is their primary law. Then what is the function of a matrix? It

is to sleep right? So if it is to sleep. Yeah, no, that's what you are referring to matrices. Now we can go to. We we can think about master client separately. Now let's complete

mattress. So. Because they are used to sleep. And you're calling your trademark as Sleep Well. Right. You are not only saying that this is a product on which you can sleep, we are

describing the functionality of the product, but you are also saying that you can sleep well on. Right. That makes it district. On the other hand, you can also argue that it is not

descriptive, It is suggestive. Right, so you may not only sleep on a mattress, right? You may you may do 10 different things on a mattress. You may generally lie down and read a book.

You may sit on the mattress. Right. You can. You can define if you have 10 different things that you can do on the mattress and sleeping is just one of them. Then you can argue that

this is not a descriptive matrix descriptive mark, but it is a suggestive right. Now, how many of you think this is descriptive? How many of you think this is suggested? How many of

you don't really care? What do you think matters? Or? Yes, yes it matters. Now the question professor is asking is does it matter whether it is suggestive or descriptive? Yes, if it is

suggestive, you can get trademark protection if it is descriptive or not. Yes, yes, yes. So for example, let's say we have a client. There is this company called Sleep Well, all of you know

we have a client who has a brand called Sleep Great. Now, can people go after our client and say that you are using sleep, therefore you are violating our trademark? No, right,

because it is a descriptive word and that is what is referred to as part of. Public domain publicity tourists. Anybody can use that one. Yeah, somebody else had a question, I believe.

Yeah, let's say what if it is for mosquito repellent? Right now for muscular repellent, is it suggestive or descriptive? Now you know what the meaning of suggestive or descriptive?

Suggestive, right? Therefore it can be protected as a trademark. Yes, I'm going to come to that. But before that, let me complete the 5th type of trademark, which is referred to as a

generic trademark, a trademark. That becomes synonymous with the product. Is a generic trademark, and that trademark loses protection. For example, fridge for refrigerators.

Right. We use them synonymously. Right. 0X for photocopying. Xerox is used as a synonym for photocopying, right? These are trademarks that have become generic. And they do not

get strong protection. Right. So you want to make sure that your trademark becomes well known and famous, but you don't want to make it so famous. That it becomes generic. Now

Google is trying to. Prevent it from becoming a synonym of such. So a lot of times we say why don't you Google it. What we mean is why don't you search right? So that's why you see

that Google has different color schemes, different, you know, devices that they put up every day you have a different color and it keeps changing, right? So they're trying to show that

it is an identifier of their business. And it is not a synonym for search. OK, now jurisdiction wise, so trademark, do you need to register a trademark? You don't need to register a

trademark. Somebody said yes, yes you can register, but you don't need to. If you register it trademark, however, you get the benefit of stopping your competitors by taking an

additional action called infringement. There are two ways by which you can stop somebody from using your trademark. There are actually three ways, but most of the trademarks

have only two possibilities. One, you can stop somebody by suing them for infringement. Two, you can stop somebody from suing them by suing them for passing off. If you register,

you can choose somebody for both infringement and partial. If you don't register, you can only sue somebody for passing. Now, what do you mean by suing for infringement? Sowing.

Sowing. Based on infringement and throwing for passing off, we'll talk about that. Now our trademarks. If you register a trademark, is it valid across the world? No. If you register a

trademark in one country, it is valid only in that country. If you want to register in different countries, you have to go and file in different countries. However, we have an international

filing system in which India is a member. This is called as Madrid Protocol. By filing one application, you can register currently in more than 70 countries. However, if one of the

countries decides that they want to object to it, then you have to go to that country and defend it in that country, yeah. So. This is a good question. So can the word Harrier being

used in different countries have different coexistence? Yes. That could be a possibility. The possibility could also be that they have a prefix that is Toyota Harrier, this is Tata Harrier.
That way you can differentiate between them. Yes, once you register a trademark, you have to renew it every 10 years. Right, technically there is no lifetime. You can keep it valid

perpetually. As long as your business is valid, your product is valid, service is valid. But to keep a registration valid, you need to renew it every 10 years. Regarding your comment on

Toyota Harrier and Tata Harrier, same problem came with Four Everest. They had to rename it as Four Endeavor in India because Everest was paid in for Everest Masala in India

actually. So then they couldn't use it. So why? Why was that different? Now that's a good question. Now Everest is known for Masala, why can't they use for automotive? So normally

it trademark when it is protected, it is protected along with a particular good or service. And it is associated only with that good or service. You can use the same trademark for some

other goods or services. With 1 exception. If the trademark is a well known trademark, then you can't use it for any goods or services. So in the case of Everest. I do not know the

details of that case, but I believe Everest is a they were able to prove that it is a well known trademark. Because it is a well known trademark, it can't be used with any goods or

services. And Indian Trademark Office maintains a list of trademarks that are recognized as well known trademarks. So when you are choosing your trademark, you want to go check

if whatever your chosen is in that list. If it is in that list then you better avoid it. OK. Any more questions? Is this the slide on OK now? Yeah.

Remove this now. For example, yeah, distributive trademarks do not have protection. Generic trademark lose traction. So I'm just displaying the value of trademarks every year.

There's a valuation that is done by an organization called Enterprise. And you can see how much value each of these trademarks has. I think a few of them have dropped off the top

five list, but I think now Apple has more to the top. Last year, I believe it was number three or something. Amazon was on the top. Cool. Trademarks. Every company has a trademark,

right? And all of you agree with me. Every company has a trademark. The name of the company will be the trademark. Your product or service? You will have a particular logo or a

word associated with it that's your trademark. So trademarks are there in every company, which means every company has IP. if somebody asks you do you have IP you say yes

because you definitely have the value of as you keep running your business and doing more and more business, your valuation can really go off your plan or anything other than

other forms. Also want to focus on your trademark because that. you have every right to start a company on your name for example, a company as Anil Suraj and start selling

products business on your own is permitted categories. You want to rename your product you have every right to change can you call Virat Kohli cannot object being named as Virat

Kohli but if you want to use that name for your business now, Virat Kohli has celebrity rights because he’s a celebrity, he can stop others from using his association with products or

advertising. Virat Kohli is not celebrating playing cricket and then you have launched a trademark trademark but it is not registered. It is registered so you can see the number 2122

and I believe this year it is crosslights, so you can see how many people are right when we used to be in something like 12,000 quite far now so which means people are giving

importance to trademarks you need to be that much more when you think of trademarks in the context of your business as propose to use your particular particular file as a

proposed trademark but you should identify where you want to file so when you file there are 45 classes define different services you need to decide which services you want to pick

and file those classes registered normally based on the report of the Registered ones were decreasing the number. I mean the file ones are increasing but the actually getting

registered specifically. That is because there is a there is a bit of issue with the number of trademark examiners. Last year they have had significant number of trademark examiners

and the head of the Patent Office who is the Controller general, IP Office, who is the controller General is saying that he is going to increase these numbers significantly. He claims

that he has already increased it by 500%. We are yet to see the number, so once we see the numbers, we'll get it cleared. Thank you.

We have around an hour right after 10 years on the line. The question is, if I'm if I have registered a trademark and let's say I'm using it for 10 years, within the ten year. Your business

has acquired some goodwill, right? Which means consumers recognize this trademark with your business, Then let's say you went bankrupt or you went out of business, then what

happens to the trademark? The trademark will still continue to have value, but over a period of time, that association will slowly come down. There will be a downward curve. At

some point it will become zero, then you will have no right. What happen? If you don't renew, the trademark gets abandoned but your rights without registration right I said you have

you can register or without registration. Also you have some rights that non registered writes will continue and you can sue for passing.

It gets a lot of treatment get rejected by the way, and a lot of them get abandoned or withdrawn also. So if it gets rejected, then you know you don't have any rights on the

trademark from a registration perspective. You can refile it after establishing more goodwill and association in the. So once it gets rejected, there is no rule that you can't refine it.

Then there will be no rejection. Yeah. Normally they'll have an agreement where they'll permit. They'll give a license for them during the term of the franchise franchise agreement.

Once the franchise agreement comes to an end, the right to use the trademark also comes to an end and then they will give the right to another. Proprietary rights. They have user

rights, so you can in trademark law. You can also register as a user of a trademark. They'll have user rights, but those will be defined by the agreement, the franchise. Oh, people have

companies have more than. I mean many companies have thousands of trademarks, more than thousand. There are many companies which have more than 1000 tracks. Yeah. One

biscuit packet can have on an average 100 marks. Right. So we'll, we'll talk about that. We have around I think 16 as of the last, including the new 150 years. No, there are two three

variations there. One is we normally file a word, then we file a logo based on the colors that you have and we also file in black and white to cover all colors. Then these three we

finally multiple classes. For example, IIMB is in training and education will file there. Then IIMB also has an online website we'll file in a different class. IIMB also does consultation.

We file in another class, so now we already have three into 398. You are well known, but. Not yet not. We have not yet received the approval. So you might want to think about that.

What if you open a restaurant with that? Yeah, yeah. I think a few people have used it and we have already stopped them. Also. It's around 5-6 of them we have stopped. So we have

to keep monitoring and making sure that you stop them. Alright, yeah.
So the question is, if I have 5:00 and if somebody else files after me, they're able to get it. Registered. Now they can't get it registered because if there is an earlier trademark, the

Patent Trademark Office is supposed to object. Let's say they don't object. Then we get a period of four months to file an opposition. So your attorney has to be vigilant and make

sure your attorney has to oppose the trademark from getting registered and then you can get your registration. Let's say mistake happens, you don't oppose, still gets registered, then

you can file for a cancellation. Saying that I am the prior person and days straight part has to be cast.

Alright, so now I'll just take you through a couple of cases. We have some perfect examples. You can refer to them later. So you know the Royal Stack brand, right? Indian Whiskey.

Right now somebody has started leading question, yeah, you say yes, you got. So somebody has started using the brand Indian style. So Royal Stag, the company that owns the

trademark Royal Stag, decided to sue this company. Now the question is. Nine Sack is a registered trademark. They sued them for infringement as well as passing off. Now

infringement is decided based on what is referred to as triple identity test. The marks have to be similar. That is the first Test first step of the triple identity test. The first identity is

marks have to be similar or identical. Second part of triple identity test is the goods have to be goods or services have to be similar or identical. And the third part is they should be

sold in the same. Trade or sales channels? First question are the marks? Identical. How many of you think yes? How many? Everything No. Who has the highest percentage? OK. Now

how would the goods, Goods, obviously they're the same trade and sales channels are the same, right? Now the code in this case said. You are able to see the pictures, So what both

of them use the stack. So the code said that the that stack. Was for the first time used by this company. And nobody used tag before that. Therefore they have acquired rights not just

on the overall word royal stack, but also stack. And by copying the most important part of the trademark, which is stacked. The other company has. Created a trademark that is

similar. 2. Just based on the similarity of the suffix the code said. That trademarks are similar, so triple identity test is satisfied. And therefore. This there is trademark infringement.

Now here, yeah. Absolutely, Absolutely so. Then the other party argued saying but you cannot say that. You cannot say both are similar because when you look at trademarks. You

need to look at trademarks from the point of view of a person with. Average intellect and imperfect recollection. So to decide whether two trademarks are similar, who is the person

who has to feel that they are similar? A person with average intellect? And imperfect recollection, I want to ask you because all of you don't fit into this category. Right, so. Yeah, it is

not the judge. The judge has to see these trademarks through the eyes of a person with average intellect and imperfect recollection now with respect to alcohol. The Indian star guys

argued, saying people who drink alcohol are very particular about what they're doing. So they are not average consumers, they are above average consumers and they can easily

differentiate between. Between Royal Stag and Indian stand, no alcohol. Are you going to go? I mean anybody who consumes alcohol here? Saturday evening are you going to be

confused between Royal Shack and industry? Then you will not bother whichever stack it is given. So that is what they argued, but the code said we are not going to buy that

argument until that point of time. The principle was that with respect to alcohol, the consumers are above average consumers and therefore they don't normally get confused that

easily. But in this case the code override that rule and said that that rule is no longer going to be applicable.

How about this case, Blender, Sprite and London? Yeah, but I want them to tell me what they think about this because this went to a different code. The earlier case was really high

code. This went to Madhya Pradesh code. No it doesn't. No. So same question came before the code the again based based on the earlier Royster case, they argued that you know,

pride is very associated only with us. But the code side. In this, when it comes to alcohol, a consumer is an above average consumer and they will not be confused. And therefore

there is no trademark improvement. So as you can see now there is a split between two codes. So we are yet to come to a final conclusion on this point. Having said that, I would like

to be you to be aware that there are these two principles, average intellect and imperfect recollection, High intellect and perfect recollection. For alcohol, it could go either way right

now, yeah, you had a question, what are the keys and BC So. Yeah. So what do you think? Is it confusing? It's confusing. If it is consuming confusing, then there is infusion. All right, so

professor is wanting me to hurry up. Yeah. Yeah. Which we talked you said Everest cannot be used for some other goods and services. But that is the second point in this. It is a well

known trademark. So you need to prove that your trademark is well known. To prove it is well known, you need to submit significant amount of evidence to prove that and only

around 120 trademarks. Well known techniques. OK, if you prove it is well known, let's say pride is well known with your product, then you could stop somebody from using.

Is this copyright? Some other water. No, no, that is that is direct trademark in future. In fact distillery has stopped many companies who have done modifications of miscellaneous

Billary arguments of. OK, right, right. Yeah. Last question. OK. Normally they're saying, yeah, yeah. They will still look at it because sometimes you may be 11 product may be sold in

luxury stores, another product may be sold in small kirana stores. They would have. No, no they would. They may not have one, but they would have had a good chance, a better

chance than what they had here. That is good enough. Then you don't satisfy the triple identity, therefore it is not infringement. I didn't talk about passing off, I'll just say one line

about passing off. The difference between infiniment and passing off is. In passing off, you have to show misrepresentation that you are wrongfully representing that this product is

originating from the original person, right For example. I am selling Indian stack but I'm sure I'm saying that it is coming from the company that sells Royal Stack that is passing on. So

I'll leave it there. We will go to copyrights. You can see the copyright stats, I believe. I'm not going to talk about that.
Yeah, Now, what does the copyright protect? A copyright protects. Ideas expressed on a tangible form in literary, dramatic, artistic, or. Musical in the form of literary, dramatic,

artistic, or musical works. Or it could be in the form of semiotic works, photographic works, or sound recordings. So if you have an idea and you write it on a piece of paper, what kind

of work is it? Literally work and you get copyright. Let's say you make a video on your phone. It's a cinematographic work. And you get copyright. You take a picture, it's a photograph,

you get copyright on it. You compose music. It's a musical work. You get copyright. Now, to get copyright, your work has to be created by you. It should be original to you. And you

should have minimal amount of creativity. Significant creativity is not required. Now. Copyrights also need not be registered. Protection is automatic. The moment you create the

work you automatically get protection. However, registering has an advantage. Where you can easily prove that you are the owner of that copyright. If you don't register, then you

have to prove or submit evidence to prove that you are the owner of that copy. Now, unlike for trademarks, once you get a copyright in one country, it is valid in 176 countries.

Companies are countries have come together, signed an agreement. Through that agreement they have agreed that once a copyright is published or registered in one country, it will

be recognized in all the other 175 countries. Now. To decide whether there is copyright infringement or not, let's say you have created some work and you want to see if somebody

has copied your work. So as a company, you will be creating website content, you'll be creating catalogs, you'll be creating brochures, PPTS. All those are your copyrights, your

software, your software code is your copyright. So to prove that somebody has copied. The test is what is referred to as substantial similarity test. You need to prove that whatever

has been copied from you is substantially similar to what you have created. OK, if I have a copyright on a book and you have copied my book, I have to prove that your copy of the

book is substantially similar to mine. I need not prove that the entire book is substantially similar. Even if one page of the book is substantially similar, that is good enough. One

chapter is substantial similar, that is good enough, there will be copyright infringement. If you copy the entire group, then entire book, there is copyright infringement. If you copy

only a chapter, there is copyright infringement. We saw that chapter. So now in PS2. There was a song that was made by a Rahman. And a person from the Duggar family sued AR

Rahman saying that. Ahmad's composition is substantially similar. 2. A composition owned by their family, with respect to which he wants copyrights. Let us hear both the

compositions and you tell me whether there is substantial similarity or not. Everything it is. But the lyrics are different, right? And the test is not that of an average person with

average intellect and imperfect recollection. That is only for trademarks or copyrights. The test is that of an ordinary listener. Right. For music it is ordinary listener. For movies it is

ordinary viewer. For books it is ordinary reader. So an ordinary listener would they find. These two. Substantially similar or not is the question How many of you think yes, yes. OK, so

yeah, Rahman is now. Has now been pushed to the wall. What he is arguing is he is saying that they are. They themselves have copied this from a traditional rag. That's right. That's

right. So therefore there is no copyright infringement. He's he's not denying that he's copied. He is saying that this though. We used to represent one, but no more. I think he is

represented by a lawyer in Delhi right now, so. He's arguing that the court has said in the last hearing, please submit whatever composition you are seized in musical notation form

and we are going to compare the notations and decide whether there is substantial similarity. All right. So any questions before we proceed, we will go to the next one. This is

fantastically. Humans of Bombay.

OK, all right. So now how many of you play this fantasy league sports online? Anyone who has some experience in this area? Fantasy cricket. 311 and all right so. So there is this

platform called Exchange 22. Has anybody used it? OK. This, this platform combines. Sport Sleek The regular fantasy league with stock trading. So you can actually trade. Players and

you know certain other aspects of the game, like what you do with stocks. If your player is performing well, his value goes up, the player is not performing so well, value goes down,

and so on and so forth. All right, so now. There is this other platform called my Fab 11. Which is also into Fantasies sports league. So they started implementing this stock trading in

their game when the last IPL season started. So this Exchange 22 sued by 511 and got an order again. Saying that they have copied our. You know the concept and they have also

copied the look and feel of the game. Then this case went for further hearing. And the question before the court was? Whether a concept, whether the concept of? Sports League

Plus Stock trading is copyrightable or not. And secondly if you if you have copied the graphic user interface. I think you can see the interfaces there on the screen. All right, so let's

start with the interface. It's the easier 1 S for a person with. An order for an ordinary viewer is this. Substantially similar. How many people think No? Most of them, yes. Alright, so

the court also said no. Then with respect to the concept of. Fantasy League Sports and Stock Trading. The code said. This is at a conceptual level. Many other sports like earlier NBA,

baseball, and all of them had this concept. And they have just adopted that concept into cricket. And therefore this concept itself. Is not a new idea. When the idea itself is not new,

its expression. Can also not be protected as a copyright and therefore there is no copyright on that concept. Because there is no component on that concept, FAB level can use the

same concept. For running its own sports league platform. Yeah, in Bollywood.

It depends on whether they swim or not. Sometimes they sue, sometimes they don't. More often than not people don't, but off late that has increased now, in fact a few movies

where we were representing a poor Portugal company. They ripped off the music of this Portugal company. The companies were not budgeting and this company did not want to go

to court because they did not have confidence in Indian courts. But right now the way codes are going, they are very much in favor of IP. So there's there's a good possibility that that

will increase the number of companies suing in India.

All right, so now you can see on your screen humans of Bombay and people of India. So, you know these two companies, have you heard of them? Yes. So these platforms actually

carry stories about ordinary people, right? So Humans of Bombay suit people of India. Saying that they are, first of all writing stories about the same people that these people are.

Bombay wrote a story about a old woman. People of India also decided to write a story about the same same person. They started using the same photos. Right. Then they started

using the same story. OK, then they started using the same videos. Right then, people of India say. See, it is there is a storytelling part of ours is a storytelling platform. Is there a

copyright on saying copyright over storage telling platforms? So that is the first question they raise. The quote said no. The concept of. Launching A storytelling platform itself has no

copyright, so People of India has every right to have to run a storytelling play. Now the second question is. Can people of India write story about the same person that humans of

Bombay have written? Yeah, the court said yes, because there is no copyright on a person. So you can write story about the same person. Third question is can people of India use the

same pictures? Now there the quote divided this into two types of pictures, Type 1 pictures that were given by that person. Type 2 pictures that were shot by Humans of Bombay.

Type one Can I use Type 2 Can I use? So now all of you have become copyright experts. And finally, how about the story? The way that humans of Bombay have told the story, can

people of India tell the story in the same way they can present it in the same way where the court said no? Yeah, somebody had a question here. Oh, exactly. The court said that itself

is a concept. Right. So basically if somebody is already doing it earlier and you have copied that, you have, let's say, adopted that concept. Then the judge will more or less say that

you will not have any copyright on. That's it in in inevitable conclusion. Yes. You know, assuming that you're not the first person. Assuming and the first person. Let's say you're the

first person to launch a storytelling platform. The concept of a storytelling platform is considered as an idea. It is not an expression so that copyright will not be. There will be no

copyright protection, however. Let us say you have launched the Storytelling platform and on that platform you are. Displaying stories in a particular way, you are showing images in a

particular way, you are making videos in a particular way and you are, you know, presenting information in a particular way. All that you can get copyrighted and if somebody copies

that, then you can go after them for copyright. If the pointed at the picture has been published, for example, where people of India without consent from the person whose story is

narrated, then that person has to sue, not humans of Bombay. But what happened in this case? In this case, the code said there is no copyright on storytelling platform. There is no

copyright on photos that are given by the person. There is no copyright on writing a story on the person. All that people of India can do, but what people of India cannot do is they

cannot present the same story in the same way that humans of Bombay have done. They cannot use the videos that humans of Bombay have created. They cannot use the photos

that you, once of Bombay, have created. Yeah. They didn't remove because what they did was they modified the stories. Some of the stories were very similar to Humans of Bombay

Stories, so they modified them. In fact, I wanted to show you two stories, but unfortunately those Instagram links are not working. But you can just go and look up a couple of stories.

In fact, if you would have downloaded from the Google Drive that has those links. You can look, look, look those. OK, so in marketing campaigns, we got of social media marketing,

Yeah. So in that context, we have to put a lot of testimonials and stories which are connected from the consumer. So do we have to take the consent for the content which is

published or even just normally what happens is the testimonials that you take from. I mean it depends on whether you're taking them online or offline. If you're taking them offline,

you have to take a an authorization from them. If you're taking it online, normally your online terms and conditions will have an authorization which they agree and then provide it

to. So it's always good to have an online form where you put all these terms saying that they're authorizing you to use it for your realizing. All right, so we are on designs. This is. This

one.

Sorry. Yeah, so.

Yeah, we we have enough time to finish. So patterns. You can see the increase in number of patients also last year. In 20/22/23 financial year, the control general claims that there

were around 84,000 patents filed. The annual report is at to be released. So we don't know if those numbers are authentic or not. However, you can see that there is an increase in

number of patent filings. These are not. Huge numbers. For example, when we started practice that year in 2004, there were 3000 patents filed this this was in 2004. Now in 2020,

220-380-4000 is. Not remarkable increase but decent increase in number of pattern filings China. In China on an average they file around 111.1 to 1.2 million patterns every year. In

the US, there are around 550 to 600,000 patents filed every year. We are nowhere close to those numbers, but the numbers are increasing and patterns are assuming importance

because codes are giving orders that are in favor of patent holders. 5-10 years back, around five to six years back, courts were not in favor of patent holders. But now all of that has

changed. So what is the pattern protect A pattern protects inventions. If you come up with something that is an invention, then that is protectable as a petal. A trademark protects

representations used in business. Copyright protects ideas expressed. On a tangible form and patent protects invention. Now, what kinds of inventions are protected as a patent?

Inventions that are new? Useful and non obvious. Your invention has to be new. It has to be different from what is already existing. Right. There should be at least one difference

between what you have developed. And what is already exists. Secondly, it has to be useful. It should be useful to at least one person. Thirdly, it should be not obvious which means if

a person who is skilled in the field looks at your looks at your invention, you should not find that it is obvious based on what is already exist. What do these mean? We look at them.

However, there is one additional requirement. There are a list of subjects in India that. As as a policy matter. Patterns are not granted with respect to those subjects. Some examples

are animals and plants. In India, we don't get patents on animals and plants. Medical methods. Let's say you come up with a method of performing a surgery. You can't get a patent

on that, but if you come up with an implement to perform a surgery, you can get it. Similarly traditional knowledge, something that is being traditionally existing for many years, like

let's say an Ayurvedic composition. You cannot get a patent on that, but let's say you improve the diabetic composition and come up with a an improved version. That that you can

get a better. You can't get a patent on presentation of information. This PPT. I can't get it. So like this there is around there are around 50 different items which are not patentable and

those items include computer programs per se. Right, Software person. So in India. There are two types of softwares. That can be classified under patent law, software per se, and

software that is not per. Software per say is not patentable. Software that is not per se is patent. Now what is the difference between the two? Any computer program that runs on a
stand alone computer. Which is used for a general purpose. Is a computer program per second. That is not pattern. On the other hand, any computer program that is made for a

special device. Or that goes outside the computer and adds functionality to something. That is patented. For example, a music player for playing music on your laptop. You cannot get

a pattern. Same music player for playing music on your mobile phone. You can get a pattern because mobile phone is a special device, it's not a general purpose computer. Let's say

you come up with a software to print something on a printer. That software is enabling functionality outside the computer. That is. Software embedded in hardware is fading. Right.

The rule is any software that has technical effect. Is not a software per SE, and that is fashionable. Otherwise general software is not. OK. Any questions before we proceed?

Yeah, you want to know computer program per se and not person. November So these are like categories that were created by lawyers over the years. Because the law says

computer programs per say. Have started arguing, saying that whatever is on not on a computer generally. Is not per se, therefore it should be patented. Patent Office has accepted,

so we proceeded with that. Then we argued that any software that is embedded in hardware. You know, not per say. is accept Is accepted. So that came outside the scope of that.

Swe started creating X exclusions. Now we are arguing that any program that that facilitates. Anything similar to human type of thinking and provides deduction is not per say. In

some cases they have accepted so that is also slowly coming up So AI software you can bring it up. US Patent Office gives patterns on all types of. Yeah. You can call it a computing

device, but parent parent office has not yet accepted it as a general purpose computing device. So the law says a general software on a general purpose computing device is a

software person. Somebody had a question from this side. Yes, so. Yeah, there is. With respect to operating system, the argument is going both ways, but as of now it is not perceived

because it works with hardware. It sits on hardware in the computer and enables the computer to function so that can be. Can can I? Yeah. So you said about Ayurvedic ingredients

that cannot be patentable. There was this case where US patented turmeric as a wound healing agent. How was that Indian government objected to it and got the patent? But this

traditional knowledge exception is in India. Now laws vary from country to country. So we we were able to show something that something is already existing and then we got it.

Yeah, the patent once. Once you get get a patent, first of all it is valid only if you get a patent registration or a grant. And a patent registered in one country is valid only in that

country. If you want to get patients in multiple countries, you have to go to different countries and get patients. The term of a patent is 60 years, sorry, 20 years. The term of a

copyright is life plus 60 years. Right. Like of the author plus 60 years. Patent after 20 years you cannot renew it anymore. It expires after 20 years. If you want to file in multiple

countries, there is an international filing route. Through that route you can go and approach different countries through a harmonized process, but that doesn't give you pattern

grants. Some regions have come together and decided that for this entire region we will give a single pack. Europe is one such region. You can file a single pattern in Europe and get it

granted in around 3637 European countries. Similarly Africa. There are a couple of groupings you can get in around eight countries in each of the groupings. You need not file it in

Chennai. There are four offices in India. Yeah, because they want to check if what you have filed is something related to national security or not. If it is related to national security,

then they will impose what are called as secrecy directions. And once they impose secrecy directions, you cannot file that patent anywhere outside. Sir, just one more question

regarding turmeric itself. So that turmeric is not, I mean it has no historical significance to us. So if they filed a patent only in the US region, would that be valid? Can can we not

challenge it because? I told you that for you to get a pattern it should be new, useful and non obvious. It is not new, right? The use of turmeric for healing wounds is already known.

Now to prove that it is known, Indian governments showed one publication old publication and said that it's been published long back. So therefore this filing, whatever they have

filed for use of turmeric for healing wounds is not new. The US Patent Office rejected.

OK, thank you. Alright, now we look at an example, you can see the burgers. So you must not be very angry now. So let's say I have invented. A3 layered burger. OK, so now what is

already known? What is already known is referred to as prior art in patent law. So for me to get a pattern, I need to prove that these three layered burger is new. And it is inventive or

non obvious. To prove newness, I need to show at least one difference between what is already existing and what I have invented, individually comparing that with what is already

exists. Which means I have to first compare my three light burger with. A known two layered burger. Then I should compare my three-year layered burger with the sandwich. With

each of them individually, I should have at least one different. Then it is said to be new or novel. Then when it comes to non obviousness. I need to prove that this three layered

burger would not be obvious to a person skilled in the field. Based on what is already exist. In other words, I need to prove that. By looking at a two layer burger and a sandwich. A

person skilled in that field. Would be a person skilled in burger making. Maybe a shift? Would not think about making a three layer. If I prove that you would not think about it then it

is inventive and non obvious I get a patent, otherwise I don't. So let's go to through these two steps. Is there a difference between my three layer? We'll look at novelty first. Is there a

difference between the three layer burger and the burger shown on the screen? Yes, so there is one layer extra and there is also probably a Patty extra extra. So there is one

difference. Is there a difference between the sandwich and the three layer burger. So which means it is normal. So for novelty it is as mathematical as this. Analysis is as mathematical

as this. Now when it comes to inventiveness or none of business. You need to decide whether persons with skill skilled in the art is. You said it is a shaft, so would a shaft. By looking

at these two things that are already existing. OK, we have a two layered burger and we have a sandwich. By looking at these two, would he think about making the three light burger?

Yes, yes. How many of you believe you would think about making it? Quite a few. So what? 30%? Forty percent? 90 percent? 70%. So how many of you think that? He would not think

about making a three layer. So for people who said he would think about, that is obvious, which means it is not inventive, so it is not patentable for people who said. You know you

would not think about it. It is non obvious. That means it is pattern. So now this is a subjective determination. Which is normal. We normally made based on an assessment of. You

would think like a chef. He would have to think like a chef. He need not be a chef. He has to think like a chef. Now if there is somebody who is specialized in food technology or food

food making, then they would assign such an examiner for this case. Now think about this. Now, wouldn't the Thriller budget be unstable? Wouldn't it be difficult to eat for

somebody? So wouldn't combining all three of them and putting them on a plate stably and delivering wouldn't there be a problem? No. Exactly. Wouldn't the size of the bunch side
of the size of the bread, size of the patties? Wouldn't that matter? Yes. So which means there are problems in making a three layer ****** right? So now, do you think a chef would

easily make it? How many of you think yes? So basically with one simple argument, all of the change your mind. I hope examiners are as easy as this. So now to decide whether when

you make an argument about your invention to get a patent right, you need to first show what are the problems. And make small problems look big. My God, how can the three

layered burger be stable? It's very difficult to make it stable. You need to think about, you know the size of the bun, you need to think about the shape, you need to think about so

many other things. Right. And then put some numbers in there. Thickness of this much shape with this kind of an angle. And then you get a better chance of getting it back.

Exactly, exactly the size of that hole, the shape of the hole, probably the thickness, the contours, all of that you can present and make it look complex. Because once you make

something, it doesn't seem complex, right? Once you invent something, it doesn't look complex because people have what is there in this big deal. Right, you should. The burden is

on the inventor to show what are the problems and how you are. OK, let's see. No, I mean, I'm not saying it is not generally difficult. Do you order This is what.

Alright, OK. Now how do you assess patent infringement? How much time left? 15 minutes. I just will take two minutes on this and we will be done.

So this uh. In order when you get a pattern, you get a pattern. Based on what you write in your patent document and there is something called a claim you write in your patent

document, somebody will be liable for copying your patent only if they make a product that falls within your click. OK, so you all of you understood the basic rule right? Every pattern

document has claims. And if a product that is made by a competitor falls within at least one claim, they are liable for patent infringement. Now here is a claim I have shown to you on

the screen. Can somebody read it out quickly? What you see is the claim on the right. Can somebody read the claim on the screen? Are you able to see it clear? Yes. Yeah. With the

base of. And it's. The base of the So this is how claims are have to be drafted. So you know who to go to right to draft such claims. Seems to be quite amused about the way it is

worded, but this is how claims are worded. Now to understand what this claim is you need to break it down into its pieces. So which means you need to decide what are its elements.

Normally I would have asked you to do it but we don't have time so I am going to show you what the elements are. So I have broken this claim down into its elements. So Mr. Jones,

can you read these elements also? Container. The first element is liquid receiving container. Yes, electrical heating element on base contact. So there is a liquid heating container.

Then there is an electric heating element. OK then there really sensitive over there is a There is a thermally sensitive overheat control. Now what does this overheat control contain?

It does two sensors. They are separately spaced apart from each other. So this is clear, right? So each one of the sensors can operate when the vessel overheats, it can overheat when

it is dry or when there is liquid in the recipe, right. This is clear to everybody. Yes, yes, yes. All right. Now is this product infringing? Now, to decide whether this product is infringing,

you need to see if all the elements are present in this product or not. So because George, you read the elements, I think you remember them. Can you tell us about them? Yeah,

yeah. OK, So what are the elements? There should be a container, right? Is there a container here? OK. There should be a heating element. Is there a heating element here? Yes,

There should be a temperature controller or thermal controller. Is it there? Yeah. Yes. OK. There should be two sensors. How many sensors are there? So is this infringing? No. To be

infringing, all elements have to be present. Here all elements are not present. Therefore it is not infinite. Your patent attorney should have replied saying one sensor is enough. He

has not drafted it so you have lost that it. Intel can be considered, intent can be considered, but I think here there is one more difference also there. I think here there is a

temperature adjustment possibility, right? Which is not there in the other one. There is a single temperature there. So this this sensor, the way the sensor sensors is also different, all

right. So otherwise you need to draft properly. Now intent can be considered, but it is very rarely considered right? I'm not saying it can be ruled out. There is something called as

equivalence. Is 1 sensor equal to two sensors in this case? If you are able to argue that, then you can win that case. But I won't spend too much time on this. I will finish the rest and

then we can we can go for questions. So these are designs the design protects.

The look and feel of a product. While a patent protects the functionality of the product design protects it look and feel. The look and feel can be in the form of shape, color,

configuration, surface pattern or whatever. So here I am showing you a case. Is that the case? Like, yeah. So here. Somebody filed a got a design registration on a Devanagari pattern

put on a plate. You can see the plate there, right? Another person copied the same pattern or to your cup. The question is, is it infringing? The test is same as copyrights. Are they

substantially similar? Yes. OK, so now I think people who are saying no, you are saying no because that is a plate and this is a cup, isn't it? Yeah, because. Surface patterns different.

OK, the code in this case. I will not spend too much time on this. You can go back and look at it later. The code in this said the same Devanagari. Surface pattern was put on the cup

that is substantially similar, right only when copyright. The test is substantial similarity and both cuffs and. Plates fall in the same class where the registration was acquired.

Right. If it was a different class, let's say I put it on a car, it wouldn't have been in pain, but because cups and plates are in the same class, this was held to be infringing. Now as

Professor asked, we will go to trade secrets. We are on trade secrets. Alright, So what is the trade secret? A trade secret is any information. That has business value. And which is

maintained secret. By you, right? In other words, it is not known to others and for which you have taken steps. To keep it as a secret. So I'm repeating again, Trade secret can be any

information. It can be technical information, business information, financial information, manufacturing information, sales information, client information, any information. Provided
that information has some business or economic value. Does the client information have business value? Does scientific information have business value right now? This will be a

trade secret, provided this is not known to others. Right your client information like what does the client? The name? Name of your list of your clients? What are their requirements?

At what cost do they prefer to buy services or product from you? Right, all this. If it is not known to others, then it becomes a trade sequence. Provided you have taken steps to

maintain it as a secret, what steps can you take to maintain your information as a secret you need to sign? You can take steps in the form of signing agreements. You can sign a non

disclosure or a confidentiality agreement. You can sign employment agreements with your employees which have confidentiality clauses. These are considered as valid steps to make

your information as a trade secret restricted access. You can also have a non compete clause in your confidentiality agreement or access controls limitation of information access. All

this is considered to be all these are considered to be reasonable steps. To make your information as a trade secret. Now trade secret. There is no registration for trade secrets. You

have to maintain your information as a secret. Then the court will recognize that information as a trade. Which means you need to prove before the court that there is some

information you have. It has economic value. It is not known to anybody and you have taken steps to keep it as a secret. Now in one case. The company was manufacturing. Friction

welding machines. Frictionless drilling machines I believe and the some of the drawings of the machines that they were supplying to customers. Right. They were also making gigs for

automotive companies for testing certain automotive parts and so on. They were keeping all these drawings as a trade sequence. OK, that was information that they did not give to

anybody, but they gave to one person. Senior employee in their company. He joined them as a accounts manager. Slowly he learned some technical information and that the person

has got access to all this information. Finally became a. Senior manager in the company. A senior person in the company and he was having access to all these drawings. He was also

having access to client proposals and every. Then he was also given some shares. One fine day he decided that I've had enough with these guys, let me go, set up my own company.

We went out, set up his own company. But he didn't sign any agreements with the first company. There was no agreement with the first company. Right. So he decided that I have an

agreement, I can do whatever I want. He went out, set up his own suffering. He took all these drawings with him. It decided to contact the same clients. And he told them, I'm going

to give you machines for a cheaper price. They're giving it to you for, let's say, 1 crore. I'll give it to you for just 99. Right, he started getting clients. 3-4 clients went to him. They

started placing orders with him. Then this company which is called ETA Technology Student. Is a Bangalore based companies. It's to them and said they have violated their mishap.

This person has misappropriated our trade secrets and he must be stopped. From using our Trade Secrets. What do you think? You think there are trade secrets here? No, no. You're

saying yes, Some are saying no. Who are saying yes. Why yes? Because. Their economic value. Have they taken reasonable steps to keep it secret? Saying no. Why do you say no?

They themselves shared it and they did not have any agreements, right? So this person whose name is Malika, you know, he argued, saying that I didn't sign any agreement. And

these drawings were given to me and they were given to clients also. Even with clients they did not have any agreements. Right then. The company argued, saying we didn't have any

agreements. We agreed that we agree that there are no agreements, but this person, we trusted him. He was under a relationship of trust with us. Right. And he breached that trust.

By breaching that trust, he was under a fiduciary duty. Will not breach the trust. So he breached the trust and therefore he committed trade secrets of the court agreed and said

though there are no agreements. This amounts to breach of trust. This amounts to a relationship of employment where he is supposed to maintain that trust, but he didn't maintain

it and he misappropriated those for his own commercial benefit. Therefore there is. Threat secret violation and misappropriation. The quote asked them to stop contacting clients, to

stop offering same products, and to stop using the same designs and drawings.

So that's about trade secrets. I am done. Any questions?

Customers. There is no separate act, but it is recognized under the law under what is referred to as common law. Professor will probably talk more about it. So the question is we

share a lot of information with customers, How do we protect them if there is no law. Normally you would want to sign non disclosure agreements with your customers or let's say

some customers say I'm not going to sign any agreement, put a note saying that this information is confidential and then share it and that has been recognized. The court says valid

trade secret information.

Yes, yes, yes. Patterns can be granted over both products and processes.

Of course, how do they see means? I mean, I think if I have to tell you broadly, quotes are now coming down heavily on them and they are granting. Huge amount of damages as

well, alright. Yeah. Yeah, so so basically based on all these principles I taught you, I have spoke about. There has been improvement or not. If there is improvement, then the grant,

the propensity of you know something being held as infringements are probability has increased now. And the extent of damage is being granted has also gone oxygen, So cores are

now viewing it with a, you know, serious snow. They're looking at it very seriously from your point. Doesn't matter. You cannot copy, that's what codes are trying to say. It's likely that

air one may be held liable, but let's see. I'm going to skip that slide.
Yeah, it is. So Banana has no link with intellectual property, so it's an arbitrary. Yes, yes, yes. So I'll just have one small thing. I'm I'm skipping this commercial. Professor will probably

talk about it. This is.

So this is a book I had written recently on accessibility. It's about you can read it in about 2530 minutes. So it's a very very basic book where I'm talking about what accessibility

means and how do you make products. Why you should make product services and spaces accessible to persons with disabilities. I have given a link for a free download, so those of

you interested you may want to download and read that book. If you do manage to read it, I look forward to your comments and feedback. It's a very basic book. It's meant to give

you a a very basic understanding of what accessibility really is and why it is important. All right, thank you. Last question, Is there a general question?

In these cases, go to the regular codes or is there a special code for it? Yeah, I know. Most of the cases go to commercial codes, right. So we have, I think professor has spoken to you

that there are what are called as commercial codes. there is a commercial courts act certain commercial disputes go to Division. In some high courts they have said that even

Commercial Code commercial IP distributes should will also go to IP. So in Delhi, Bombay and Madras on all these three high courts, they have a separate IP division. All all IP cases

will go to those codes. But here in Karnataka, we don't have a separate IP division. They're not special groups, they're just a division within the. Are there technically? People looking

at it from a judge's point as well at the moment, no.

Look at 22G effectively we The topography of semiconductor circuit was also protected as a patent earlier and now of course as I'm sure many of you will realize they not really so

create or something so technical that we have to given patent like an invention instead we can make it a separate kind of a write called layout designs which is a one time registration

for 10 years which by the way is quite a long time in that industry we also have geographical indications for goods you might have Protection given for any kind of. Have an attribution

to the geographical area. So for example, the typical example is like Darjeeling tea right now. Darjeeling tea means. What does that mean when we say Darjeeling Tea has got a GI?

Protection or GI tag. What it means is that all that growers in that region of Darjeeling and mind you that region goes beyond even Darjeeling town or district. In fact it goes beyond

the country as well in a way, but we. Note down who are all the people Farmers who are growing tea. They may be 1502 thousand. It may include even Tatas. ITC right there may be

even corporate. Planters and Growers will be part of it, but the fact is only those who form part of that database would be the ones who can claim their text is dark. Delete. That's the

part we have brought about. And by the way, each one of those growers may have their own trademark. right for example tata tea i think if i'm not mistaken that lemon yellow

packaging would be there so they will have their own on This law GI. Nobody should be misled to believe that at grown in Nilgiri Hills is being passed off as data. This thing but

somewhere else, right? There are quite a few. Sri Lanka is known for quite a few. For varieties, But there were also people growing tea in Sri Lanka and passing it off as. Dealing Tea

just to get market. Prominence and. You're not for commercial benefit, but now geographical indications is a very well established, universal kind of thing. It has come under WTO

and in fact I think one of you asked the question the other day as well. In fact. Wasfi the entire dispute about basmati, there was an issue because there was a company in Texas

which came up with a different varieties strain of basmati rides and got it patented right. Even today I think maybe now the patent. Perhaps expired, maybe a few years ago. Yeah so.

But the major part was they wanted to sell it in the name of text mobile. Now for the first time, or perhaps the only time, India and Pakistan fought A dispute together on the same

side, because Basmati is one of our bigger biggest exports for Pakistan as well and. What do you call it? Both the countries vehemently opposed in US saying you can't sell it in the

name of text machine because that is very similar to Basma. But then the catch was that Basmati was not a trademark. And at that time we did not have what was known as what is

today known as geographical indications. And we lost that case even today. It is sold as text. Murphy in in. But Europe was very. Supportive and they actually decided not to recognize

the term text money and quite naturally because Europe was very keen on bringing in geographical indications for a lot of their. Products like cheese, wines, spirits as well as

chocolates and so many. Sorry. Yeah, yeah. There are many, many different products and. Commercial attribution for their geographical locations was very high and therefore they

actually supported India and Pakistan and said yes. We don't like anybody else riding on the popularity of the word basmati, though it wasn't technically protected. Trademark. So

even today Europe recognizes basmati as a kind of fragrance of rice variety which is grown in the Indian subcontinent and therefore nobody else cared. Layer claim to it kind of a

thing. We have now gone on to have GIS quite. What do you call it? I mean what do you say the the many fruits? Silk. Across many parts of South India, there are also. What do you

call it the the community coming together in terms of certain kinds of painting weaving? As well is also coming under geographical indications. But Please note it is only for goods, I

mean we don't at the moment include for example, folk culture. In fact. Anu Malik is very happy that we don't include music either. Right, Music. And there are so many of these.

Traditional forms of performance arts, dance forms, all of that. In fact, that's also an issue when it comes to. What do you call it? Traditional knowledge, which I think. And it touched

upon. When it comes to Ayurveda, it comes to a lot of Wellness industry as well as cosmetics. There's so many industries which today are laying the claim to some of the natural flora,

fauna related products and that also goes out of the purview of GI. At the moment there is a lot of debate that we should bring in. Quite a bit more of natural resources as part of
geographical area and dedications, but we haven't done much about it. You might have also heard about plant varieties. There have been many instances. There have been

sometimes, if I may use the word, ridiculous instances where. Monsanto, or quite a few of the others, have gone out, gone after farmers, for not destroying the the the possibility of

regrowth of RE or whatever you call it, the further growth of certain plants. Of on which they have intellectual property rights on growing those variety of plants, right. Even Pepsi for

example, was in the news in the Indian context, I remember that was just a month before the Lok Sabha election of 2019. So they had to kind of literally then. We could draw their

notices because they went around sending notices to, you know, Pepsi has this one plant variety protection on a kind of potato they grow for their for their chips or wafers. And so

they also give a gap. So they enter into contracts with some farmers and after five years they want them to stop. Because they feel there is a depletion in the kind of output and then

they give the contract to other set of farmers, they move on. But they don't want these farmers to end up allowing for bare plots to still continue to grow that potato, that particular

variety of. Fund Which? Which is of the potato variety kind. But then sometimes, you know it's a natural process, right? It's not as if the farmer goes around actually sowing those

seeds, but it may just naturally. But Pepsi says that no. In fact, now I think they're put in a process whereby they actually go and clean the bed. They literally make sure that the soil

topsoil doesn't have the ability to, kind of. But see, I mean the the plant of that same variety that's part and parcel of their contracting process. They'll say that we'll come and make

sure nothing takes place. But then these are things not entirely in the control of neither the farmers nor the Pepsi as the right holder. So it leads to. A lot of these instances where it

seems very ridiculous for them to be going and enforcing their right and that too in in the Indian context, imagine going against the farmers and having to fight that battle. And it's

not as if they are growing the entire plot with that, but still even one. Plant of their variety being grown is technically a violation of the law. And it should lead to consequences and all

kinds of things, but we haven't seen too much legal action there because it gets kind of. Literally nipped in the **** because not many companies are willing to go down that line. We

also have seen a bit of controversy when it comes to. The, the, the what do you call it? The beach cotton or the BT brinjal? A few of these instances of genetically modified organisms

or plants or high yielding varieties, they also get protected as part of this same. Legal framework that again has kind of died down, I don't know, maybe because things have become

better in terms of process or is it just we don't have too many day-to-day routine products being brought into the market, but that's another aspect of whether. Our systems are good

enough, robust enough, to be able to approve some of these genetically modified products without realizing, well, one is intellectual property. But what about safety? What about

citizen? When it comes to quality and stuff like that, yes.

Sorry, shop called. Sorry, B Oh, you mean the, the, the actual, whatever deal, OK. I mean just to stop you there, it will not be called as a trademark. If at all I have to let's say if I have

to protect the bail as being my variety of proprietary kind, my only option is either I protect it as a patent. I have invented this new kind of bail. Or or I actually say that bail is only

grown by a particular kind of maybe a kind of corn or this thing, and therefore it is what I prepare is from the source from the column which Iona plant variety like how Pepsi says

these are. From our proprietary potatoes that we are able to grow. Of course Pepsi doesn't necessarily claim that as a reason why their ships need to be eaten, but they actually have

shown that it's easier to slice those potatoes than any other potatoes. So that's that's the proprietary. Nature. So it's easier for them to be able to mechanize and process it in a better

way. So they are there, are happy with that. They are not really, if you ask me, is Pepsi gaining commercially by having the plant variety on those kinds of potatoes? Not so sure of

that, but nevertheless it may be cost. Effective time reduction and therefore it is working to their benefit. I mean, just to go back to answer your point. IPR is just the term. Right. The

very next question to ask is what kind of IPR do you have? Right. And that's where we need to be clear. There are literally seven kinds of ideas, 4 which are traditional, historical, very

different and three more which have now been extracted from the four and said OK, these also need to be given separate, distinctive. Protection and. And can I can I have multiple of

this? Yes. I don't know if it came out clearly in Kalyan session. I told you that logo of I am Bangalore is a trademark but it's also a creative work which is also a copyright. Right. But

then by holding a copyright, what do we get out of it? Not much. Making it also a trademark. That would mean that, OK, now I'm in a position to affix it as a symbol on a book and the

value of the book goes up. Put it on a T-shirt, Have a or a or a Insignia of some kind. Then there is a possibility of being able to commercialize it or make use of it. So IPR is just a

reference term. We will have to then ask is it a patient? Is it copyright? Is it? Whatever designs, which is only aesthetic, I hope that came out clearly. I'm not sure that point came out

clearly. For example, jewelry. Jewelry design is one of the most. What do you call it most valuable design protection from the Indian context? We in fact are one of the biggest

exporters as well of gems and jewelry. The design, the jewelry as well. Not not just the precious metal, but the design you will read and textiles. Textile, fabric, fashion, design, those

are also protected as designs and in automotive sector I'm sure today you know, I think as they say under the hood pretty much all cars are the same, but it's all about how do you

design the cars in terms of their their ethnic. Like the like the you know, the sidebars, the front grill, all of them are today getting protected as designs and that is the key aspect of

India. Though the word industrial makes you feel it's more mechanized, don't get distracted by that. In fact, in many countries they call this as design patent. So not to be confused,

again, this is just patent or sometimes they call it utility patent. And this is essentially not not utility, but ornamental and more decorative or or esthetic. That could also be there. That

could also be there, though, I don't know. I mean bail and bail house, I think, well, I haven't heard of bail house anytime. Itself may be difficult because the person may not have.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. That's possible. That's possible. Trademark. No. Trademark is what we get for whatever we mark our trade with. Right. So typically it's a logo like logo,

sometimes it could be the even like I think Kalyan mentioned the look and feel of website. Is also called a straight dress. If I have, if we are giving some services over the website, the

way the website is designed, the look and feel right, the utility part is different, the underlying technology, software, all of that is different, but the look and feel, the user friendliness.

All of that can get trademarked so that my competitor doesn't copy the same. Maybe I'll change the color, but can I just copy the same way of navigation? No. Why? Because that's

the way I marked my trade. And for me that is important that it is protected. Of course, when we talk about commodities then it becomes like this one doesn't seem to have too

many things, but or you know, imagine. Umm, I think I mentioned that in Kalyan session as well. HL is sitting on at least 85 to 90,000 trademarks at a time. Right, because simple

biscuit packet can have about 150 to 200 trademarks, right? Because they don't want you to copy any of those features. It's not just the entire. Look and feel itself, but also the logo
that were the, the overall color the. Sometimes you may see a crumple on one side. The crumple will not be serving any purpose except that it will make it look different on the shelf.

Right. So there's a lot of these things, uniqueness by which you would like that product to be known, which will be the one which is straight like the name or the font, the color in fact

smell. In fact the biggest problem is how do you describe smell in the trademark register, right? They have no way of they just put it as it smells like a bit. Then when aromatic and

something they try their all the English synonyms come out at that time. But effectively what does it mean when the way it smells which we have to get a live sample and and actually

compare it. In fact two sandal soap manufacturers spot a long case saying that you have copied our smell. Sandal and so how many different kinds of smells can it evolve? Right. So

but then one soap that that no, this is the only smell. And if that is the only smell, we are the first ones to get it. So we've got to get the protection. So right. So there's a lot of these.

A lot of these things. So the only way the judges could do it was smell this and then give a break and then smell that and and say that, OK, whatever. Which one is really coming

across by the way, just to clarify on trademarks as well, you know, in fact in Bangalore, those of you will be familiar with Nandini. Brand which is a state owned milk brand as well as

there is a Andhra food restaurant chain which also goes by the same name, though it is spelt with a edge as well Nandini now both are in food. And edible products classification,

they fought all the way to the Supreme Court and Supreme Court actually said. And that's one of the things about trademark is it's all about how does the consumer perceive it. And

that is why Kalyan was referring to few of those cases of even the liquor brands as well which which essentially. Supreme Court said as long as Nandini, the milk brand doesn't get into

restaurant business. And as long as Nandini, the restaurant doesn't get into selling milk and milk products. It's OK. Quite distinctive in the minds of the. Right though, it's it's a classic

instance of there being a conflict in the same class of goods, and phonetically they are the same. Nandini, there's no difference. It's not even. You know there's one more chain called

Nandana which at least is slightly different, but this is. But nevertheless, it went all the way up to Supreme Court and they. He said that no, it has no confusion and can coexist. I'm not

saying that will always be the case, but at some level I think. By the way, the prefix of small I which which has been trademarked by Apple in US as well as in many countries there

have been winning cases. So if somebody else names their products whatever say in some other industry also. They are now going around litigating and winning cases by saying we

were the ones who. Created that and therefore now people will always associate a prefix of small I with apple in some way or the other. So even if you whatever runner resort which

with I holiday or something like that, it would still mean confusion in their mind. They seem to be successful in arguing that way. So I mean, coming back to close that loop trademark

is something that depicts the product or the corporate, uh. something to do with business and trade and just to let you know right man

Sitting on 90,000 trademarks across the world and having to renew it at different stages, so there is a good number of people, entire department doing only that.

Like that, no other work, but just to go on vigilance of being alert on when to renew which trademark, because there's always so many coming up for. renewal so we actually have

more than Because someday the product may go out of circulation, you may stop producing it, and you may say that it's OK we don't want to do it, but then somebody else can pick it

up. The trademark will then get out into the open, which means somebody else can now say I am going to do my training based on this. Mark and I will now lay the claim. Though

they were not the first ones, but they can very well pick it up if nobody else is. Continuing with it, So it's in some sense. The number of trademarks will always be in millions. Whereas

number of patents will be hardly a couple of million at any given point of time across the world. And that's the kind of proportional difference in terms of numbers, but in terms of

value, I would say even in terms of value trademarks is having much more value riding on them than. Than any other PR in that sense. So trademarks is about whatever signifies. Or

months product or or a business? And that could be of any of these types, including smell Jingle at jingles. They're all usually protected as trademarks so that nobody ends up copying

it any further. Yes.

We have seen the branding, which are very much similar, but indicated for two different diseases. That's something which is allowed because. You know, disease is not a factor. If

both are medical, whatever pharmaceutical products, then they are in the same class and they could very well be a. Challenge of this thing. But it could be that they can coexist. I

don't know. I mean, so sometimes firms may not necessarily fight it out. They may say that it's OK, we'll coexist. One brand is already registered as trademark. Government already

has the data with them. So why don't they disallow some other company by taking a different Yeah, let me use this question to first of all clarify to you that's that's a very important

aspect of intellectual property. And pretty much like any other property. Government says it is your personal property. We will at the time of registering, we will try to see if we can

avoid. Duplication overlap patents. As Kalyan told you, it takes on an average 3 1/2 to four years to get a patent. That means that's the level of effort they are putting in to see

whether it's actually deserving. Is there already something in the industry or in the world which is something similar? Then, with the inkling of some similarity, they'll say no, this is

rejected. This is not for the. Right. So surely there is effort going on, but the government at the end says no, That effort is what we will put in, but that's not a proactive preventive.

Anticipatory. You got to be vigilant. You got to take care. Right. You got to find out, is somebody else doing business on a similar name and taking away my goodwill, my clients

misrepresentation, especially in today's world of ecommerce. Right. We never know. I mean who in which corner of the world is doing something similar using my own name? Or

even they may not be online. I am online, but they may be in some corner of the city. And running. There are many disputes of organic stores within Bangalore. Called the same, you

know, green something, green something. Healthy and whatever Millet. All names are some combo of these words and eventually people think it's the same thing, a chain. Right, so.

But it's all in the domain of you've got to lead the effort, you've got to take the initiative. We are no doubt you can always come and complain to us. And by the way, violation of

trademark is also a crime. Really for this reason, because otherwise it will become very easy and simple for somebody to get away by copying, and sometimes it could be spurious

products, duplicates. They may not even be similar name. They may be actually the same name, same product copied, right. You actually put out counterfeit. Onto the market, like

the way Louis Vuitton I think spends more than two hundred 300,000,000 lbs every or or whatever euros every year, just on being vigilant and preventive against brands claiming

having counterfeit products. Across various ecommerce channels, and that's a amount only such brands can afford. What about other brands? What about other FMCG goods? Are

they able to do similarly? Not at all, but the ball lies in the court of the trademark.
Owner to take that initiative and the government says we are not going to be responsible just like any other property, that's that's a challenge. That's actually quite a challenge, but

yes.

Yeah, good point. No, you're asking Portal to check whether some name is. No free portal. There are some paid databases of sectors. In fact we now have sector wise trademark

databases that you can check up as well. But otherwise Internet is the Internet is like now becoming like a good crowd resource to check is anybody selling a product. Or similar

spelling and this thing. So to that extent I would say. In fact nowadays if you go to register a company, one of the first things is you have to give three choices of names, and you have

to also say that these are not trademarked. You only have to, I mean declare by. How do I check and actually declare it? Well, I just do one general check. There's really no. There are

lawyers like Ivan Kalyan form which do a check and give you a report as well, but they will also be able to give you a specific report. But those are paid databases as well there.

Something specific. So for example I want to.

Cell and automobile spare product in this name so they will find out if in a similar market. Is there anybody in the world selling something similar? Something and stuff like that

sector wise is also possible.

Now that is a separate issue where all most Ipr's today are all digitally enabled. You don't have to physically go there. And even trademarks as an individual as well. You can yourself

navigate through trademark. I think I forget the website name, but we have a IPR, India, this thing where even trademark GI all of that as an individual you can do. The only thing

which you cannot do entirely individually is what I think is patents, because it's true. Technical. The best scientist I know my technology. I really can't understand. Sometimes

objections, review questions, examinations and stuff like that that can come in. So there I still feel it may not be entirely possible for an individual to go through the thing, but

trademarks and stuff like that can be done. You can very well. It's almost you have to pay a fee of 2000 rupees or something like that and you can renew it as well so that. Yes.

That that. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think. Maybe these are the best times to. Remember what we would have discussed almost now? It seems very long ago, but. Must have mentioned it. I

won't ask you the question, but let me go ahead and repeat it again. But if you recollect, I would have mentioned to you. Whenever we say. Right. We always use the term prism tip

right? We don't say conclusive right, we don't say no. But if something is registered, is it not conclusive? So for example, again going back to, for example, ownership of land. Wedges

String authority may say Anil owns the land. But if tomorrow somebody comes with a better evidence to show that, well, the person from whom I bought was not eligible to sell.

Then my purchase is invalidated. I show you any number of documents saying for last ten years the lands Land document is in my name. But that is based on the assumption that my

purchase was valid. And if as long as that assumption is alive, that's OK, but that is an assumption or whatever you might call it presumption also. But the fact is, with better evidence

and factual content, there is a possibility that. The person from whom I bought it did not own the 100% share of. Right. In fact, in India it gets even more complicated because we

have family rights on land. Right. Especially ancestral and. Right and ancestral property gets bequeathed on a particular sharing formula which is different based on which religion the

family follows. So, and guess what? Even today, and I don't think anywhere in the world, do we have a database of siblings. Right, so now let me put the onus on myself. Anil will sell

the land to you and say yes, I own the land. See this papers. Yes, you check the papers you took the land. Then my sister turns up two years later and she says wait a moment that

were 50% of the land belongs to me. No, but Anil never told us. Yeah, that's right. That was expected of him. But that's not the point, is 50% of this land belongs to me now. Right. So

the key point is no, but then what's the point in going through registration? By the way, you pay a huge amount of stamp duty. Please note registration does not mean verification.

Even in intellectual property, you're right. Patents, they take 3 1/2 years. Even after that, can they measure? That's exactly what Patent Office itself says at anytime during the term of

the patent, you can come and show us an evidence. It says this patent was invalid, then from that day onwards we will hold it invalid. Till that day it holds. Already got license fees till

that day, then I don't have to return it. Or in your example, Pfizer May would have made the money till that time. That's OK. In fact, it is very common. It's very common in industry

for A to get a patent. B will realize A doesn't deserve the patent, it's absolute this thing, but B will not go and get the patent cancelled. Why? Because then CDC anybody can

manufacture it. So B will go and tell AI can get your patent cancel, which perhaps you also know, so you give it to me for free of. Whatever. Discounted, right? Yeah, it won't even be

called a settlement. A and B will enter into a closed deal. So that CDC can still not? And A and B are now reaping the benefit of. Going through. Right. So in a sense that makes better

logic. Knowing very well that yes, it is possible that even with all the verification there is a problem, but that doesn't mean business ends. You will still be in the position and in

pharma. Please note pharma or for that matter any other entity which has regulatory approvals, Usfda has nothing to do with FedEx. They are only looking at certain standards for

food and drugs. Who gives it to them for testing is left to whoever comes to them. They will check that and say whether this is correct or not if once they approve. Can I then go to

the market? That depends on whether somebody else has a patent. So sometimes as the patents are coming to an end. The generic manufacturers will go for US safety approval

because anyway. By the time you give me the approval it will end and we will hit the market. Running on day one rather than wait for another two years or whatever time it takes to

get that approval. So they had to then make that exemption in US saying that no, can I manufacture it for FDA approval. Isn't that a violation of patent? Then USA said no, no, no,
come on, this is only for approval. It's not for marketing, it's not for sale, it's not for exports. So therefore this is exempted for purposes of violation. Otherwise, even manufacturing it

and telling somebody take a look at this could mean violation because the patent is still alive. And valid. So these are things which we have gone through now broadly we have settled

it as its OK as long as the patent is valid, you don't get into the business and the date gets off patent, you are welcome to.

Yeah, yeah, that's right. I'll come back. Yeah. Yeah. So let me I. I have mentioned this earlier also but let me mention again no country in the world gives you conclusive registration.

No country in the world. Not US. Not Japan or Australia not. So not even India. I mean, I'm not saying that only in India we have this issue. Yeah, in India we have a slightly more

complicated property. Regime but but that apart no country in the world because it sure, I mean very, very. What do you call it? Impractical or just not feasible to be able to verify?

Because at the end of the day it would mean a very time consuming process, right? So the way the system senses, we will try our best, but at the end of the day you will need to take

more diligence. Nobody else forced you to buy, so at some level you got to be diligent as well. But yes, to what extent can I be diligent apart from looking at registered documents

and this and that? No doubt that's a challenge and that's in fact that's that holds good even when you buy companies. Acquisitions, takeovers, whatever, right? Whatever due

diligence you may do, you may still fail like we have seen some examples of that nature. So you may spend a huge amount of money and yet you may not see certain obvious flaws.

But on the other hand, that's part and parcel of. At the end of the day. Good question.

So you keep your trademark alive or designs alive. Till till the fair enough. Fair enough. Trademark may even be designs, but designs actually expire after 15 years, 15 years from the

first time, not 15 years after you end the production so. So most likely it will expire before the whatever that. Goes through. But trademarks is what you will be. And patents anyway,

expires again 20 years. Even if I have a patent on a particular kind of whatever fuel injection system or whatever else that will expire after 20 years. No, there's no renewal for patent.

20 years is one time. And even for industrial designs it's 10 + 5 one time, so 10 at the most. You can renew it for five more years, which means 15 One times. Rate mark is possible.

Trademark the name and which you sell it, say fan belts or whatever else. Headlamps and these kinds of things, which. Of course may also have common usage, but even if it is

product specific, but with the name you can do it, but not the technology and not the not the ornamental look of it, yeah.

At some point, one of them decides. Yeah, see again. OK. Providing the service. No, But yeah, no, no. So good point. See again, Please note. Keep in mind that. Or let me In fact,

usually that's how I begin, IPR says by telling you, by a safe estimate, all over the world, more than 70% of all litigations are due to property disputes. Hi Rick. I'm talking about not

government, but private to private parties. It's all about property. Imagine property being tangible and how whatever itself leads to so many complications. Imagine what would it be

if it is intellectual and intangible proper. Right that only. Multiplies makes it much more complex and I agree with you a lot of times. What do you call it? There may be similarities or

even it may be same or. They make coexist for some time and then realize that now we are now growing big or global or national and we don't want to anymore tolerate the other.

Right now, all of this. Possible tenable do happen, and the legal system really has no magic solution legislated despite the fact that we have so many kinds of Iprs. Can we not have

one resolution that can be built into the law in some manner? Yes, again, we go back to. Was the first one to do it Now, not always could it be easy to find out who was the first one.

Both may claim a lot more. In fact, somebody may say they were first, but they didn't do anything for next 10 years. Whereas we built it, we built the brand and they actually work.

Got the benefits of our effort. Right, there can be multiple. Arguments. But to put it in a very blunt way, the only resolution is this. Someday one of them will say, OK, I am willing to

sell out to you for this much because I don't see what going forward or the other parties is. Of course the dispute you are referring to is both state governments. Obviously that's not

a business field. Right. At some level, neither of them will yield. To the other So I guess they will still keep fighting on who would be the thing. It ended OK. Maybe, maybe it did, but I

think. It's possible that now it means we have to pay something to that state and and see again. The question is, is there a likelihood of confusion? There could be because we are

neighboring States and there could be many people booking. I don't know KSRTC, what would it be online now the the one which has an online presence is the one which. Will now

have the ability. And again, online is another issue altogether. Right now what if I have the domain name but you have the trademark? That also we don't have a law in the world

which says we will resolve it in this way. You again have to resolve it by going through some process, mediation, arbitration, whatever, because it's usually across countries. In this

case at least both are in the same country, but I don't know where presence, what is the fund over there, but that's another issue altogether. Own the trademark, but somebody else

may have got the domain name first right? So those are the kinds of concerns of many of these issues, so. Yes, yes, the same. I mean just that you can't resolve criminal part of it. The

criminal violation part of it will not be possible. But otherwise there were a few debates. Whether to allow arbitration in Ipr's, but at the end of the day, it's like any other business

contractual dispute can be resolved.

Yes, suppose if I file for a patent but not. Product with the label. Yeah. So can I stop others from a good point? In fact, that's one of the issues that I wanted to mention, but let me

since you have raised the point. See the? The time taken form from the date of application to grant and rejection is quite high, especially in countries like India. It could go up to three

to four years and that's that's quite a long period but the way. The system looks at it is the patent is valid from this date. Not from this state. Right, it's valid for 20 years from this

date. So now the question to ask is what happens between this three to four years? What if others copy? By the way, the first thing the Patent Office does is publish my patent

application. Why? Because that's the best way to Crowdsource any input on that technology. Right. The Patent Office says instead of me going looking around, I'll just put it out. Let's

see if somebody comes back and says there is a problem with this. Right. Which means people are well aware. Of what we are patenting and producing and. Whatever is your

invention, which means the competitor can very well start manufacturing. But. When the grant happens, it is valid from this state. Which means then you can go back and sue
whoever has used it during this. That's why they make it valid from the date of application for 20 years. Now that's also the reason why if you put patent pending or patent

application number or something like that whereby you are warning. People, guess what if I get? And I'm going to come back and show you guys if you copy. It's quite again business

knowledge that well my competitors will look at the get the patent verified reviewed by a patent attorney and say what is the likelihood that this will get a grant very high then then

they will come to the applicant and say we will negotiate a deal right away. Why wait till grant give us a discount? That's one option. Otherwise, no, the likelihood of getting the grant

is not so high. Then why bother even telling or wasting anytime? You just start producing. OK. And going to the market because anyways the likelihood is not? So all of these

possibilities are.

Maybe those are very rare instances, but still, isn’t there some limit to how much? A particular drug can cause it. Isn’t there some? Should we not have some ceiling in terms of what

can be provided? And if we do, then would it not be counterproductive? Well, why would the company want to come and sell something at a very low cost? So a lot of these are. So.

All the other case situations this also has no particular answer, though I’m sure you are aware the compulsory license was granted. In this case, it’s the only sense of pharmaceutical

drug being compulsory license. I just want to clarify one thing for the benefit of everyone. Compulsory license, as the term itself suggests, means the property holder has no choice.

They will be given some royalty, they will be given some money for for going or whatever for for having to take that license or I mean I cannot say give because they didn’t consent to

give but by law. Our patents act not only our patents act for that matter. Even that West to framework allows for imposing compulsory license setup particular stage of time. It is

always temporary, it's always with the time limit. It is usually for 6 months or even 3 months renewable again for 3 months. Kind of 15. But the way we look at it, for example, I think

in 2004 if you recollect there was it’s a tsunami. That to place on the coast of Chennai and Tamil Nadu. That time there was a German company which had the patent on a particular

kind of waterproof tent. And obviously the German company was not producing it in the country, but they help the patient. And at that time they even said, well, we we cannot

produce and supply it in the next 2 days or 3 days, but we are willing to help anybody else would like to do it. And the DRDO produced it in a matter of 2 days, transported it, they got

it from different units of theirs and managed to. Provide those tents for people who are survivors and to relocate them in immediate context. So at that time also there was a of

course there the company was also willing and there was a lot of there was a clear national emerge. Situation and the entire. Ecosystem swing into action, but this case is slightly

different because it is not really an epidemic, though the numbers add some numbers. I think you agree with those numbers, but that as it may, I did not want to post that as a. Sorry.

Okay good that is. But yeah, so I think again whether is it an emergency or should we wait for an emergency to I mean why why induce the emergency And then I have to react to it

or intermedian so compulsory license is a very. Where power to be used because you are using it against the property private property. Its like acquisition of land. Writer Somebody

can cannot just come and say we want your land because we just want to use it for some public purpose. It has to be a. Public activity and stuff like that. So can we interfere with

intellectual property in a more? You know, in lower threshold or higher threshold of requirement is the debate and that is where it is situated. So yeah, sorry, you wanted to, yeah.

See its not about national emergency. Where requirement is not met, AstraZeneca and Pfizer, all of them actually came forward. In fact, there was a threat, sorry, in COVID time

there was a threat of imposing compulsory license for vaccines as well as I think for a short while there was a talk of a tablet some. I don’t know what happened. No one told there is

a new. Air already, I think no, but there was another. Yeah. Anyway, I mean like like very long ago. But I hope we don’t have to go back to any of those. And all there is some outbreak

in China again, so I got married in the morning. Mask with me always, but I’m not sure that will help anymore. But. Yeah I the problem is where the where the provider is. To meet the

quantitative requirements that is the canal. Where the provider is unable to meet or not wanting to meet for whatever reason, that is when compulsory license is made so that well,

you may not have the capacity or you may not be willing. But So what? We want to take it up because otherwise there may be a emergency which will go on address and even I think

I remember when bird flu. Outbreak happened sometime back. There was one tablet. Such thing that was there, so there also there threatened to impose a compulsory license, but

eventually I think the provider managed to show up the production and provide it at a reasonable price. So we are talking about where there is an unmet. Demand which is

immediate, emergent and therefore in unlike in the COVID-19.

Yes, it was patented in India. Then they need not waste time. No, no, sorry. Sorry. And not in India. Then we need not even bother to ask for license. Please note. Unless cities are

patent in India, its not enforced. If it was a patent only in US or in Europe and not in India, then any company can produce extremely India. Right. No, no, no. Please note if you go

back to what we discussed. Yesterday. Teaching till 10:00 PM last night, then add dinner and left and I don’t know when I came here. I don’t remember the morning as well so I am

glad I remember that this is the topic to discuss but but I think. I did mention that. Wherever whenever you file for a patent, the Patent Office will look for similar information globally.

There is a global. Search of information to evaluate your patent application, but eventually when you pass the test you will only get a patent within the country. Which means if I want

patent in 50 countries, have to actually file for patenting 50 country. Technically all the 50 countries will go through the same process. Look at it globally and come to the conclusion,

yes, this is patent worthy and give you the. Now what if? Informa it will never be possible because even before filing it in their own country, they will file it in India right? Because

otherwise you know it won’t be of any use filing it anywhere else. So what? What if they file it somewhere else but not in India? Then any company in India can produce. Cell. Export.

To any country except where it is enjoying the payment. So in that sense, the fact that it has been patented in US does not deny me from producing. I don’t know if you ment it that

way. Can I also apply for a patent in India? I mean, I guess in the past they used to try change the cover page, put my name and see and see whether I will get through. Obviously in
today’s world of. Interconnected databases and all that. That won’t work. It will get rejected because it was already disclosed and even patented somewhere else. But nothing

prevents me from manufacturing it, selling it and exporting it to other time. It is the same when we talk about patent. There will not ever be a unregistered patent. It’s always a

patent which has gone through a formal process and registered as a intellectual property right. yeah

Yeah. See, I may do clinical trials on a drug which is not even inventive. Right. I do not want a patent on the drug, but can I sell the pharmaceutical drugs in the store without clinical

trial approval? No. Because the last of the India as well as every other country says if you want to sell a pharmaceutical drug, allopathy, whatever formulation, then you must have

gone through these tests. So one let me use this point to also mention. In fact, that is exactly one of the sections that was being referred to is what if I get a patent in India but I do

not use the product in India? Or what is the word use work, work the patent in India. Now even today we do not have a definition of the term work. For example, the moment you

say work means sale. I keep many things for sale, but nobody buys. Then what do I do? Will you cancel my patent because nobody is buying? Then that can be easily arranged.

Nobody buy this product after 2 years we will have it for free then that’s again not a good thing no I whenever you want to buy I will give it to you but otherwise I wont get it right

away or I want produce it in India. My people possibilities of arguments have been undertaken and in a way. All of those are possible under that word work, work means what? So

should I necessarily produce it in India, not need it? Because again there are so many high level patents in India which are only produced in Japan or Germany or wherever and not

necessary that they have a production capacity of facility in India. So at some level, that’s debatable. But to answer your question, anybody like Natco or anybody else for that matter

can go to Patent Office and say it’s been 3 years. And in all these 3 years? This company which holds the patent as not done anything which comes within the term work then Patent

Office will cancel that patent. Which means anybody can now get into the business of IT. And add it to that, I don’t know if Kalyan mentioned it. Patent is one right where you have to

renew it with a very minimal cost. I think its ₹1000 or something. I am not sure you have to renew it every year. Right. I may get it. As I mentioned to you, I may get it after 3 years, I

apply get it after 3 years for next 17 years, whatever number of years up to 20. I have to renew it every year. I have to pay. So sometimes I miss. I may decide not to renew it. In which

case? I think they give a period of some 6 months. If I don’t decide to renew it then it’s taken as I have allowed it to lapse myself. But even if I renew it. For a period of 3 years. In the

period of 3 years I must satisfy the Patent Office that I have worked. The patient in the country. Now what that work refers to is a debatable in fact one company even claim we have

advertised for the product. Right. You just put on advertisement and say, see, we advertise but okay. But what if some consumer wants to buy? Where does the consumer go? Well,

that is the different question. We are not bothered about this market. So even advertisement is claimed as we have see, we have shown our commercial intent but there is no

distributor is coming forward, nobody is accepting our terms. So what do we do? These are all commercial. Arguments. Yes.

Do not do that so much. But yes, I must tell you there are 12. Patent officers including European, US, India, China, Japan and few others. 12 patent officers actually have a MU

whereby there in a position to verify electronically if somebody has already applied in a similar field or whatever that is, they are interconnected, formally not legally performed, yes.

Approval. I do not agree. It is easy to find out that at least we do not have to. So if A as patented it in US and B files a similar application in India? It is very easy for Indian Patent Office

to reject bees application because they already have. But what if as finding us? Okay. And just to clarify, sorry, I will just clarify that point. By the way, this 20 year. Does not run

different countries in different types. Because then that will become chaotic. Right where do in Japan I have patent till 24 whereas in China it expires in 21 it doesn’t. So on the sorry I

wrote it yesterday on the first a anywhere in the world where I file the patent. 20 years all over the world will run from that day. Which means, by the way, adding to that. On the first

day, wherever I file in the world for the patent, I have one year from that day roughly. Now you may say no, it’s one and half years in China that is the different. There is one other

possibility. One year from that day I have to decide which all are the other countries to find it. So I cannot sit and say after 6 years okay this is a new country that has opened up. Let

me go there and file it. No. I lose my right to file for patent after that one calendar year after my first. Weight and application anywhere in the world, which means. It’s very unlikely

that I have already got a patent somewhere before I file in all the countries. Where I want to be filing for patent. Which means. If you have filed in US and you are filing it in India,

does India already have the benefit of knowledge that US has granted the patent? Will that make it any easier is your question? Not really, because usually that run would not have

happened in the first place, but even if so, even if so, if US has granted it. That does not in any manner mean that in India it will be easier or facilitated or discounted in terms of

procedures. Nothing at all. If anything, in India, if US has granted it, then they will make you go through more procedures and hell before they accept your patient. There are a few

countries I must say and I do not want to kind of name them. They are all the. Countries where you know, sometimes they don’t even have money to have their own police force.

Where will they have the money and resources to have a patent on? Right, but they still do not want to give up their sovereignty. So they have in principle thing that if US Patent

Office gives a patent will also give it. But it is not automatic. You still have to go pay some $1500. Then there is a. We now certify your patent. Why? Because Patent Office USA has

given it shows the certificate. We will also give it to you 4500. Whatever that is like a small revenue for them as well. But that still doesn’t mean that they will say we accept US

patents. They don’t say that on record. They still say Jordan. Jordan is one such country which says that we will give the fate and. But in principle we will give it. If you get us patent,

we will give it to you as a matter of. Process itself, I mean there is no objection raise but that’s basically because their countries which are not wanting to waste effort on examining

patients and going through the process, they just look at it as a business. reduction of cost so in that sense there be a few

Reduction of cost. So in that sense there may be a few of these. Yes. Medical. But that’s medical approval, not patent approval. So but yeah, I mean see medical or even for example

you know there may be as electronic thing and that may be still going through some radiation checks and all that but Patent Office will still make give you the patent. Right they not.
In fact, there is a debate. Does Patent Office look at safety? Safety is not a criteria for patent. Patent only looks at invention. Right now, what if it is a dangerous product? As long as it

is not nuclear, it is valid for patent. That’s the way it I look at it. It’s not about suitability. Commercial probability is not the consideration when we talk about. Nuclear, Nuclear.

Nuclear is exempted from. Being patented at all, you can’t even ask for a patent if it is physical or fusion related. To go for a. Different. No, I didn’t catch that person, sorry. Okay

manufacturing. Yeah. Extended to other country. See as I don’t know again I am thinking I have said this here but its very wrong. But see Samsung I told you Samsung routinely files in

150 plus country. Because Samsung says there is no point in filing in fewer. Countries because our products, our commerce or markets are relevant across at least. So many countries.

And that’s not a joke, right? You got to spend quite a few $1000. Far country as well, but Samsung can manage that, can afford to do that and they don’t mind they, I mean not mind

they. They are keen that when they painted their patent in as many, I’m not saying always but it’s quite regular and routine for them to go beyond 100 countries at a time. Country. So

what will happen? Extending. That goes back to what we discussed earlier. If I patented it in US and lets say somebody else is already doing it already, whatever doing it in India, I

forgot, forgot or I didn’t patent in India? Its already more than one year since I filed in years. Then the people in India can produce. I cannot patent Holder in US doctors. In India.

Confused. Okay, let me take your example to mean lets say you have a patent in US. But you did not patient it in India. Right. You could have patented it even in India. But you, you

decide you didn’t know that India could be a market. You didn’t bother. It’s been 3 years. Now in India, I have started manufacturing it. Can you come and manufacture in India? Yes

you can, because nobody has a patent in India. But I cannot come to us and do it because you have a patent in. That other company has also the patient that can never be too patents

in 2 countries on the same technology. Why? Because invention is defined as invention of the world. Right. Every country looks at. Entire world before really before deciding to give a

patent in India. It seems unfair. If you have done the job for the whole world, why don’t you give me a world patent? So that’s not the way it was. Why? Because the patenting criteria

is also different in different countries. I don’t know if I think Kalyan mentioned it. Patents Act 1970 begins. The very first section is titled Section 2 is definition. Section 3 is what is not

patentable. You see how discouraging the Patents Act. We begin with what is not patentable before getting into what is how to get a patent, criteria and all that, we give a long list. It

is roughly around 48 or 49 categories. Listed what is not patent. Right, that’s the way we begin the thing, whereas us doesn’t even talk about it, only says abstraction. Discovery is not

patentable otherwise everything else is patent. Put it in a very facilitative. Patent Office also has a whatever caption saying everything under the sun is fitted as long as you are not

selling it from somebody. Right. But the point is. That when we talked about patents, why is it that we do not have something like a world patent? Isn’t it time we dont we have

enough capacity technology in today’s world. We can very well do a good job of verifying the state of the art nature of the technology and all that. The big issue is countries like India.

Brazil and quite a few other countries are atom, and that we must give patent only on a particular form of public policy. So we don’t pay tent for example, medical, therapeutic,

surgical procedures. We do not give patent for software as it is. Kalyan explained. Right, we don’t give patents for business methods. Mind method of doing business is not

patentable. In fact all over the world you know when Lemon brothers filed for bankruptcy they also said they have 3200 patents. Obviously none of them were useful, but right

patents on what? On edging. Right, in derivatives market. They have got patents on different products of how do you edge for better returns in derivative market, right? But then in

India we don’t even give a patent product. We say that that’s not worthy of a bit. You want to make business out of it? Go ahead. No. But somebody else can give a same product.

Yes, they can. Right. So it’s a very deeply what do you call a country specific kind of requirement and that’s one of the reasons why we haven’t got a world patent kind of attend. But

can there be 2 countries giving patent on the same thing to 2 different people? I mean, I can’t rule out things you never know but surely know because they are all looking at the

same material to decide who gets the patient to begin. Yes. No, that is technical requirement for certain purposes. That is all It is only if there is a national security. i don't think so i

watched

i don't think so i check

I don’t think so. I checked with Kalyan as well. He also said if there is a if there is a likelihood that tomorrow there can be an objection. So you better do it your also and then go there

and and that that’s only approval not filing. You just need to get an approval. You don’t need to file in India. It’s only an approval which is an office approval. Yes.

No, actually. As I mentioned, it is very likely, I’m sure you have heard of examples like Bata. Somebody is selling a product called Bata in Australia, right? Its not footwear, something

else, but they are telling something in the name of butter. But both Australia and India are very much India as well as butter I think is a whatever. Check. Okay so. What do you call it?

At some level, all these countries are very much part of that international Treaty of 140 countries which have come together to say that if it is a trademark registered in your country,

we will respect it and vice versa. But what happens if both have registered but are 2 different people have registered bata in 2 different countries? The treaty is silent. It says unique

photo. By the way, in today’s world of commerce, nobody registers just the name. They also go and register a domain name in the on the. Get domain name. And by the way, Internet

domain names are again not a sovereign administered process. In fact, there was a move to say that let’s bring it under international body which is governed by international law and

treaty so that these things can be avoided. But that’s not yet happened. So now the question to ask is what happens if I have a trademark on Bata but somebody else has gone in

registered the domain name of button. Then isn’t there a dispute? Yes, there is. Who gets priority? We need to still look at it because its not necessary that just because I have a

trademark in my name I will get priority over the domain name. Also look at whether by having the domain name earlier, they get a prior right on that name, and me getting the

trademark itself could be challenged. So the point I’m trying to convey is. While we do have more cooperation on copyrights and trademarks, because they are otherwise so easily

available, so easily vulnerable for violation. That doesn’t necessarily mean conflicts are ruled out. By business. What do you call it? Settlements and deals. You may want to resolve

that.

Yeah. Because no. Because see trademarks and copyrights are very easy to create and go above whereas patent is a very intensive process. Right And more importantly what is your

copyright? As a country we don’t want to object, but what is your patent? We may want to object. Patent is a more scientific industrial. Consequential technological right as opposed
to copyright, its okay. I mean we have no objection as a public policy for anybody is copyright. But when it comes to patents we may want to say that tomorrow we may have a public

policy saying if it is an anti cancer drug we wont pay it. In fact, Indira Gandhi had said no patent for any pharmaceutical. Whether it is anticancer or otherwise, it is immaterial. No

patent for food and pharmaceutical drug. Right, that was the ancient draw. I mean, she meaning under her Prime Minister ship, the law was drafted and India was one of those, I

think maybe not even one of those. The only country where pharmaceutical drugs were not given product patent till that time we became members of WTO and then we had to.

Abide by a universal system where no exception except nuclear whatever part of it should be allowed. So that’s how we came. So it’s a very deeply policy oriented, whereas

copyrights and trademarks are not so. Significant meaning.

Yes, yes, you are right. I mean if I go to register a trademark, they do not necessarily do an international. I may be wrong, I don’t need to register a trademark, but if I do go to

register the trademark, if I want an hour within a circle, not just M within a circle, then they do an international circle. But but in patents there is nothing called. Unregistered patents.

Are always through registration, otherwise you will not get that right at all. Whereas in copyrights and trademarks you can actually have AC within a circle or ATM within a circle and

unregistered for some time. And in copyrights you do not really need to register at all unless you are into some multi billion business and. Cross border and whatever. But in

trademarks, the Treaty of international cooperation applies only to registered trademarks. So that is a cash. Which is why if you want to really have cross border recognition and

enforcement, you better register the trademark. In that particular country and that will automatically give you some recognition across country. But what if in another country

already somebody else has registered as similar trademarks then we are backend 2 square one, we have to sort it out between them. No, no. See your right, but it is not necessary.

But I would have necessarily registered here. They may still be using it with ATM. You are assuming everybody is registered, which is not the case. We still allow for unregistered

trademark. In fact, one debate is why not make all trademarks mandatory to be reduced? Anyway, they are doing business. Why not? But then it is also a matter of cost, burden,

compliance. Yes. come to that i will talk about that i will talk

come to that i will talk about that i will talk that

come to that i will talk about that i will talk about that i i your

Come to that, I will talk about that. I will talk about that. I I. In fact, I will put up that slide. If you may not have shared the slides, I will share it. I traditional knowledge and trade

secrets are 2 forms. Or 2. I don’t know what to call them, but 2 aspects which I believe don’t fall under IPR. Because neither of them is regulated as an intellectual property. Kalyan

didn’t get down to explaining that, but Kalyan feels that even trade secret is intellectual property, though undefined. Whatever. And usually I if you had explained it, then I would

have told you that no, it is not an intellectual property because. Intellectual property. Is inherently based on the fact that you disclose. You see all the aspects of even patent is that

you come out, you disclose, you publish, you express, you put it out in some medium we will give you exclusively. But right secret inherently is against that logic. Right. You keep it

within, you protect. And you make efforts to protect, but if if still somebody steals, will give you some remedy. But do we then call it a property, right? Not really, because what do we

call it as property? We don’t even know what it is. Still it is stolen. Now that is the cat cell. And usually what I tell people is. Exam papers are corrected by me. so you need to make

the call as to whether trade secrets is ipr you may hear to views but you know who is due to wall of them

So you need to make the call as to whether trade Secrets is IPR. You may hear to views, but you know who’s due to follow. Put down Kalyan set, but sorry, did you want to? Yes. It.

But there is a will talk about that, I will just talk about that, but then let’s be very clear. I get a patent only if I disclose. What I am getting a patent on. So at some level it is already in

public. i will come to that i will come to that i will come to that as done

When I say forms of IPR, are they really forms of IPR? Is not really, because the question is. It goes against the basic. Premise of IPR saying that you come out and disclose we will give

you exclusive. So trade secret does not work on that logic. Of course, when we talk about traditional knowledge, the issue is very different because we are not inventing anything. But

there could be communities like I mentioned the other day, you know, where they bear the knowledge, the folk culture, art skills. A lot of community based knowledge in fact, for

example, recipes, food, recipes. That’s why huge. You know the kind of the number of Pickles and whole kind of local cuisine, right? These are all things which are not necessarily

protected. In any manner because nobody knows who invented them. But it has been passed on as knowledge from generations onwards, and in fact, in today’s world, maybe

nobody is any longer. In some way. Preserving it or or in any manner carrying it forward. So now people are saying maybe we should record these things in some way, or even for

example, dance forms, music notations, right? These are all various things where people may not be interested for business. But they may be of great value as culture and society

which? Also says that when I recreate music, I am actually celebrating the forgotten world and that’s how you go and listen to the original because you’re fed up of my remix of it and

whatever. Malik is no longer reactive. Maybe there are others who have stepped in, but I sell gold. guilty of all of that so

Guilty of all of that. So sorry. Tell me more names or. allegation is your

erase

AR Rahman does it, but not from India. Yes.

Today’s digital world, it will be someone who has done it earlier. Its basically whoever has done it. And it could even be, I mean. Good olden days. I would have said whoever crossed

the patent gate first, but. It’s more scientific than that, but yeah, the question was what is 2 persons? Why the patent on the same technology on the same day? And if I push him

further, you would have said at the same moment and same this thing they lost different, but yeah, somewhere it will be earlier. But it is still first to 5. The logic all over the world is

don’t delay the filing for a patent because somebody else may. Get in there before you, in which case we will give preference to that person because they can forward first. It is not

about who invented it first, who thought about it deeply. All of that is immaterial as long as they came for the patient first. That’s the key part. And. Yeah, just to yes. Copyright

copyrights and trademarks are the only 2 kinds of Iprs where if somebody violates beat an individual or a company, they are held guilty for criminal. Finished. Yeah. It is meant to be a

deterrent for somebody to violate. Yeah, because otherwise its very easy, right? You see YouTube or any of these platforms where content is hosted. There could be a number of

pirated versions of movies already. Available over there which which are all copyright violations but we may never get to investigate and find out who is responsible and all of that

YouTube also its coming under lot of obligation saying you have to note down IP address reveal it to the investigating authorities because it's a crime to be hosting. Content like that.

Compensation. So the Patent Office actually goes through 2 processes. One is called search, one is called examination. But search is pretty much coming down to putting it up on the

web. Online and expecting people to react to it because that is a good way of sourcing the search possibility. But they also have some depending upon is it automobile, mechanical,

electrical, electronics, something They have a few established such things which they will do. Which by the by generally the applicants would have already done so. It’s not going to

be proving to be very effective that way, but examination is a very time consuming. Activity on which a lot of effort is invested. Before filing Anyway they are not aware what is the

thing. Its only before the process of grant involves this deep examination. And then if I pass the application process the test, eventually there is a. Yes, yes. It may get granted at a

layer and I have filled it later in US, but it may get granted earlier. But this may still be going on in India and Indian Patent Office need not go by the grant in US. They still take their

time. yeah so just coming back to that discussion before i go to a bit of copyrights and then i will come to

yeah so just coming back to that discussion before i go to a bit of copyrights and then i will to

yeah so just coming back to that discussion before i go to a bit of copyrights and then i will come to

Yeah. So just coming back to that discussion before I go to a bit of copyrights and then I will come to employment. Sweet but. We are going up to. Volunteered to, I was about to say.

Minutes. yeah no no i mean yeah thank you for putting it that way but there

Yeah. No, no, I mean, yeah, thank you for putting it that way. But I have a class from 6 again, so. Yeah, so. Ohh yeah. So coming back to this entire debate about trade secrets. And

patents. One aspect is that nobody gets a patent. Out of the blue or nobody gets an entire technology process, product composition, the, the scientific idea. Just like that, right? You

may think about it, you know, instant. But then you have to develop it, work on it, and sometimes you may have to collaborate with many people. Collaborate with other technical

people. You may have to sell that idea for a financial person to back you up to sponsor you. You may have to share that idea on an institutional basis with somebody. Right, there are

multiple. Occasions where? You may have to reveal the. Details and idea to different people. In fact there are many people I am sure you would have also heard stories of. You know I

am a inventor, I go and pitch my idea to VC or some investor. After 2 months I don’t hear anything, but there is one more fellows already producing that same product. And when I

find out deeper, I realised that it is a same VC who are sponsored. Right after taking my idea from my presentation, they have gone ahead and said why Anil is given the idea but he is

not capable of taking it forward. Let me go and get it done. From someone else. Right. There can be so many of these occasions, or or lack of a better term and say, gaps. Where

information needs to be protected. It is not yet updated. It is not yet a full technology. No, I’m coming through, really. I will keep that for example. That’s a nice context. As I was

telling, I thought I should have. Why did I visit here? You have to now think about setting the paper right. Have to. And I’m told making it close book of no use because the people will

anyway cooperate so. Okay. I’ll make it open book and open Internet cooperation. Or A to why not legitimise it? And so, which means that question paper has to be. More complex.

Collaboration oriented proof. Collaboration, proof or whatever you want to call it. So anyway, the point I am coming to is that. There is. There is a very strong. Need for protecting

information for sex. There is a strong need to put in systems and that’s where we are. There is a ministry committee, may be not before the elections, but after the elections. The

government is very key. Whichever government may come, but then sure, there will be very keen on making sure that there is a legislative. Protection given for entrepreneurs,

inventors. Early stage. Incubators of ideas, collaborators, because otherwise you will never have a patent. To get up to up stage of even a patent, you need to be protected, nurtured,

supported at various stages before you become a patent holder. Of course if you are working in Samsung, that’s a different issue. If there is a established insulated ecosystem that

may protect you but or even. Institutions like IIT, Madras or any other such place where they are well aware of the importance of these things, they will put in place mechanism. But

what about individual inventors? What about startups who happened to come up with innovative inventive stuff? Then the question is who is going to protect there? Uh, possibility

of going up to an IPR, right? So there is a debate. There is a lot of debate to say that let us protect even trade secret. As a intellectual property and give it as much importance.

Because that way we are actually protecting patents future, patents future. Inventions that are yet to come right? But having said that. There will also be trade secrets in the sense for

example. Please note by reading the patent Can I build a diesel engine? No. I mean, still have to invest a lot into skills. Workforce. Cost effectiveness, machinery maintenance as a

huge amount of investment that goes into even copying the painted. Now you may say no, my competitors can very well do it, but they may not be able to do it at the same cost.

Right. They may not be able to do it with the technical know how, which only I know. Or at least my workers know. And if my workers can do it for $1 and you are able to do it but at
2:00 dollars it is still of no use because you can’t sell it at 2:00 dollars, nobody will buy your product or whatever that difference. Right. At the end of the day, we are fighting in the

market, not by by copying your technology. I am not doing a great thing. I still need to beat you in the market. And to beat me in the market, you have to beat my economic. Costing

and efficiency. Which is where nobody stops making money out of a patent after 20 years because there is a lag. Where my know how will help me. Even upto 25 years, 30 years, I

must still be the most prospective producer of that patented technology and therefore my competitors. Even after knowing what is my technology, they are unable to beat me at it

because my people know and my systems are aware. How to produce it at 1:00 dollar or less than a dollar whereas others are not able to copy it and still manage it below? I can.

That’s where the distinction. Now forget a patent. I have a know how of producing something within a dollar whereas everybody else is taking $2 to produce it. Now can I patent it? It

may not be an invention. It may not meet the criteria of a patent. But I still want to protect it. How do I do it now? The only way at the moment in India is that I tell the workers, don’t

reveal it to anybody. Do not what do you call it? Share any information about this. Do not tell about this process to anybody. But then that’s of no use because all it requires is one

role employee to get out. And share the information, I have lost my value. No, no, but we give you. So you know the way it works is that when we talk about. Let us say. BR

competitors. Right and East is working for A. And let us say East quits A and joins B. Direct competitors right Praveen come to that non compete and all that a bit later but even

assuming let’s say there is non compete clause also but he has blatantly violated it and gone and joint B. Right now, the law in a way, over a period of time, has evolved to say. A can

go after east. By saying it’s a criminal breach of trust. Rich collection that. Citibank case. Case. Right. They use the word breach of trust. Part of it so a can actually go and file police

complaint against East on the basis of breach of trust. And more importantly, A can then file a compensation claim against B. Because B is the one with deeper pockets. East is, after

all, only an individual. Right. And all of this, all of this is without a shrugged of evidence. Can say I believe he has breaks the trust. And by hiring East. B is now liable to prove to me

that they are not gaining commercially, and if they are, they need to compensate me because that is a diversion of what deservingly should have been. Yes, commercial income or

whatever, maybe the contents. No, no. So now so you see we are turning the. Burden we are shifting. We what do you call it the the weight of having to prove by saying by shear fact

that East quit from and join B. Gives. Makes law give you the concession that you don’t need to have any proof and yet going file a case of criminal breach of trust against East and file

a claim of compensation against B. Now the burden is on. B and east of course to say that, well, I only went and joined. I did not share any information. Now you see the consequence

of it in the industry is today BF doesn’t hire from A. Unless a gives. Are no objection. Or even vice versa same thing. I mean I am just putting it as A and B could be A does not die from

DB unless B gives no objection. So in a way A and B are Don competitor. There are many very clear guess what? We are not going to hire from each other, because tomorrow you will

see me. Even though I am also working on the same technology. Independently, I have also done as much progress, but simply because I hired your employee. I am now going to have

to sit and defend myself against something that I have done independently and by my own merit. I have to now sit and defend it in a public forum which why should I go through it? I

am not going to hire anybody from you unless you give me a break. Who is the sufferer? Obviously he is suffering because now he is not in a position to be assured of getting hired by

the competitor. Because B is not really wanting to touch east because of this threat. And and again. No. Of course, I think Kalyan did or may be in the course lecture discussion he said

something, but. If you dig into details, there may be there could be issues or even in the Gautam Hazarika case. Also, what exactly is the compromise of information? Is it my learning,

My wisdom? My experience? Don’t I have, as an individual, the right to carry my experience and wisdom to the wherever I go? As opposed to can I carry information? Data. Flow

charts. Actual details, copies. No guiding notes. Right now that is the catch. We are talking about documents, information, knowledge. Knowledge documented. Recording. That is

what is protected us. Proprietary information. Not my understanding, my wisdom, my familiarity. No doubt if I work for 10 years or a technology, I’m going to have some inherent

thinking and learning which I will carry wherever I go. Whatever I do, I am bound to make good use of that by which I can. There is no law in the world which can stop me or deny me

from that. What matters is am I claiming it as my wisdom, but actually I am carrying some files. At in the case, I think that was the issue of some forwards, some client place from

value of how much money they would have deposited and all those things. Those are details, they are information. Now that is the property of my past employer. To that extent

surely I can’t be taking copies or leveraging of that information, but it should be able to look at it from a professional viewpoint, not denying that and that is why we introduce the

non compete. The idea is even if you have it in your memory, let’s give it a. Some kind of? Break or cooling of. So that you don’t go and you don’t quit somebody on a Friday and join

somebody else on a Monday morning. Then everything is so fresh in your mind, your bum to end up compromising or in any manner. The value of Square employer and that is a

challenge. That is the aspect that goes into it as such. So coming back to close the loop, when we talk about even you see the new law which is yet to be notified, Digital Personal

Data Protection Act actually makes a reference to. You know you can violate and employees privacy. If it is for protecting. Employers, IFRS and competitive interest. So you and

employee cannot claim that you cannot Snoop on me, or you cannot keep track of my emails or personal emails or my or my movements, or whom do I meet or work with or

whatever else because well, it is being done. In order to protect. The competitive era IPR, that’s OK IPR is anyway known for everyone so that’s not an issue, but even competitive

interest which is referring to this on documented and published. And patented kind of information which which is being, which is being protected as just wait secret right and coming

back to I think you are referred to the you know the. Ingredient of Coke or Coca Cola related recipe and all that say at some level I think in today’s world. Let me give you this context

for I don’t know if I have mentioned this earlier, but let say we are 5 competitors. And let us assume. I am one of the competitors and I am at level 10. State of R&D, technology and

development, whatever Level 10 being high. And let us assume the 4 other competitors are at only level 2. Now I have every right to patent my technology at this level. But imagine

the moment I patent, I automatically bring the 4 others to my level. Because I am putting this out into the public. By I will get my 20 year exclusivity, but the fact is the other 4 will

also come to my level. On a platter am offering them information which makes them come up. So many levels which I have taken a long time investment energy in achieving.

Overnight. I am not saying overnight, it is not so simple. But still they know exactly what is my level of technology. And for all you know in 2 years time they over overtake me. Right,

because they are obviously with more results. Right. I may be resting on my laurels of having bought a patent here. In the meantime, they may come up with a better product, which

we put my product out of the mark. So there is a dilemma at some level though. I want to really patent it at this level and bring everybody up. Or should I just keep it?

Unprecedented. Undisclosed secret. And go about it. Now that is a challenge in today’s world. Can anything be kept a secret? No, I’m not talking about personal secret, but trade
secret. Right. Can anything be really protected with that level of foolproof nature of secrecy? I doubt. I mean, even Coca Cola people say. Sell whatever in that name it will sell. I mean

irrespective of recipe. I don’t know. I mean I am not sure I will make out the difference as long as you give something in Coca Cola. So it is a very strong trademark. Not so much a

trade secret, but the trademark is so strong that he will carry the day. But it may still be a secret. I’m not disputing that, but at the end of the day it’s all about in today’s world of

technology and capacity. Engineering is not a very very unusual. I think I’m slowly running out of words, which means. stop at some point but

Stop at some point but. You can see that all of you must be wishing very strongly that yeah, that’s also had a long day. You also had classes the whole day. I think the. So I mean I will

just wanted to make sure that we are clear that that trade off between should we go ahead and patent or not. I is a is a very important aspect but that trade off exists on aspects

where I can reasonably get a patent. On a technology then my advice to any companies just going to pay. Don’t delete any on patent bill information because firstly, somebody else

may overtake you. And more importantly, if you don’t patent, it may not be too long that you can hold on to something up. If it is really a value, somebody will have good motivation

to seal it from you. So while go down that line at all, get a patent and 20 years is a very long time. If you talk about it, then today’s world I hardly there are products that will ask you

for 20 years. So that exclusivity is as much as the life of the product. So it’s not bad deal at all. But yes, getting a patent is not certainty and it is costly, but that is no excuse not to pay.

Going for a patent or try for it at least if it is patentable. But the real challenges How do I contact information which is not printed? That is another issue. Which is the matter where

we need that focus. In fact, the government I think is thinking about patent table information to be protected. That’s not that is only one part of the problem. The bigger problem is

there are lot of information which I do not. I will not get a patent off, but I will make a lot of money off. And that is the catch. That is where we need a very strong employment regime

or protection of information against employees who may end up compromising it. In fact, there are many instances where employees inadvertently share information. Carelessly

share information are not careful enough while sharing information and that process the loss not so much. As a it’s not that espionage or spine that’s not the issue, but it’s about not

being careful enough when it comes to information and commercial confidentiality. What’s the real? Problem when we talk about. Trade secrets and technical know how. But as you

can see I put a question mark there because I do not think that is a property right in itself. Because of property right is all about having to be sure what is it that I am claiming that the

property and therefore nobody should violate that part whereas trade secrets is a very. You know. Shape shifting in its nature because I may be adding to the value of information,

there may be some information becoming public and therefore depleting that body of knowledge called trade secret. So there could be a lot of changes that occur and. Calling it a

property right is of really no does not make it anymore. To enforce or protect and but yes we we do have to have a law which we are ready to hopefully very soon we will do that but

at the moment its purely based on contracts, individuals, employees and hoping that people will respect confidentiality in the workplace. Expectation. Yes, yes. Yeah. No. So let us say

for example, that. Tomorrow, Nandini KMF and Nandini, the restaurant they decide to resolve. And say from tomorrow we wont use the word nandini. Will sell our rights to use the

word Nandini for ₹2,000,000 or something like that? But does that mean that they have not violated the trademark earlier? Well, they may still be issues. Though its been resolved

but still what if Nandini KMF brand add something and can they go after them and say you have been violating trademarks and therefore the criminal liability will still remain. That

will still remain. They can still go after them on criminal. Punishment for violating trademarks if there are any such instances, but resolving it business wise does not. Close criminal

cases.

No, no, not criminal proceeding is not there. Today we resolve but tomorrow we get to know that Nandini restaurant was selling milk products. In the name of Nandini. So at that

time they can still go and see them. Whoever was responsible for that, that the resolution by business settlement does not deny. Such cases of violation being. Prosecuted under

criminal. So for example. When we talk about even video piracy or book piracy, piracy per se now, piracy is not contestation of ownership, it’s a clear violation. Somebody making a

copy in an unauthorised manner is Scanner. Vanish. But then, do we go after everybody? No, it’s impossible. Sometimes there will be millions of people who have downloaded or

copied. Can you really meaningfully go after? Everybody know. But then what if there is a unauthorised violation of a wire com 18 content by? Let’s say T series. T series made its

name by being notorious for violations, but now they are actually. The company which invests a lot on lawyers and legal enforcement against others because they know exactly what

goes into violating copyright, so they they know the tricks of the trade already. So they are in a position to give it back now and right so they may settle it. Why come and? T series

scan resolve it in a monetary way. But that does not absorb, that does not include the criminal prosecution part. So why cant may not pursue it? Given that, well, we have entered

into a deal by brother. But they can’t write it as we also settle Criminal Minds. You know why? Why can’t we settle? Part of it because. Criminal punishments and provisions cannot

be. By the parties themselves, unless the law provides for it, which by the way, the law doesn’t provide for B reservations. That’s right, that’s right because it is. Well nobody is

otherwise as I mentioned it, there is no IP police going after people and checking are you violating somebody’s stop it.

Maybe I will talk about it. I will talk about it the next time. So I just want to clarify. Usually all employment contracts will have a clause which will say that any intellectual property

you generate during the term of employment shall be. Owned by employer. Usually that is the clause and even if I am, let us say I am working for Samsung, I am an inventor. My

name comes on the certificate of patent but the ownership will be with services, right? And that is in the register. They will note it as Anil inventor owner. It would not be Anil

because by virtue of that clause in my employment contract it will be Samsung. But what if I don’t work for anybody? I am the inventor and I am finding it in my own name. Owner

will also be me. Inventor will also be the one second if it is a different domain like if im looking for electronics and which is why I wanted to explain that differently. I will link it up with

with with employment and non compete I will make it up. I did say 430 I will leave you before