You've come in in the midst of an argument about whether or not colonialism has been a

constructive force in world history It started out rather one sided as [France was] the only
colonial power represented The other four countries here tonight are the Gold Coast, and
Philippines, India and Mexico But let me introduce you now to the students who are here for the
discussion

First of all, Alfred Bannerman, from the Gold Coast, we call him "Nene". He had a good time
down at Atlantic City high school when he became a member of the "Mighty Molecules", wasn't
it?

Yes, the chemical society

The chemical club in the high school Next is Chitranjan Kapur from India, "Chit" as we call him,
16 years old, had an especially good time up at Kent school, because he feels at home in an
atmosphere where the students call the masters "sir"

Francisco Arellano, whom we call "Paco", comes from Mexico. He's 17, working real hard in the
high schools here, but he works even harder at home because Paco is going to two high schools
at once A Mexican high school in the daytime in case he wants to go to a Mexican University,
and in spare time an American high school in case he wants to go to MIT

Finally, Genevieve Martineau from France,

and who did I forget... Raul, I'm sorry! Raul Contreras from the Philippines, 15 and a half

Tonight we're talking about colonial areas, former colonial areas, and their part in the world
Areas that are now talked about as "underdeveloped areas" Before we get back into the
discussion, I think we ought to define just what you mean by underdeveloped... What do you
mean by underdeveloped area?

I think an underdeveloped area or country is one which was up until some time back under the
domination of some foreign power And that power they did not develop the resources of that
area, because it wanted to profit itself And it may have developed incidentally in the process of
its own economic development

How much of the world is underdeveloped, would you say?

I think a large part of the world...

About 75% of the world population, and about 50% of the world area, inhabited area

Well, 50% of the world's population is considered to be literate, and another 50% of the world's
population is said to be underdeveloped

Undernourished is what it means, not enough food I think the UN figures are that about half the
world is both hungry... Half the world? Half the world

I should think so, because Africa for instance has got a large part of the underdeveloped area,
and southeast Asia likewise has got a large part of the underdeveloped area

Does that surprise you Genevieve?

Yes it does really, because in my country we have some poor people, but but it's hard to imagine
that half of the world could really be so poor and doesn't have enough to eat

Well, not actually poor in my case, I mean not developed technically Because if you come to
Africa we are not poor in the Gold Coast for instance. We've got a lot of food, and it is monkeys
who eat bananas which you seem to really like in France And so actually not that we are poor,
but we are not developed technically, I should say I see

I think what she means is that 1/3 of the population of the world earns [less than] $50 a year
Their national income, you know, their yearly income amounts up to $50 dollars a year

A third of the world's population? Yes, a third

They earn less than $50/year, and 2/3 I think, earn less than $200 a year

So it is very low

It may be fascinating to some, but to us in India it's not, because we see it every day And we
know that it's quite true, because in India the average annual income of a rural worker is about
$22 only $22 a year? Yes, only $22

Tell me, are there any vestiges of colonialism left in those of your countries that formerly
belonged to another power?
In India there are quite a lot, for example we have illiteracy, ignorance among the masses, and
the British tried to increase the class [divisions] also

Well, in my case I think it is the political pattern, which I think is very bad. I think that's the last
trace of colonialism that exists in the Gold Coast now I think the Gold Coast is now living right
through the last stage of colonialism, I think we are now on the threshold of self-government But
there is no mistake in me saying that we've still got colonial institutions in the Gold Coast now

Speaking about the Philippines, well the most significant trace of colonialism that we have right
now is the Catholic religion which Spain brought over And there are so many traces of it too in
the pattern of education in most of the private schools

School is not compulsory in your countries, is it?

Well, in the Gold Coast it's not, but it is free in the primary stages

The Indian constitution says that every child should get at least a primary education, if not more
than that, in the next 10 years

That's also true in my country, and what's more, the only thing that I really think colonialism has
left behind is a hatred for the gringo that...

Hatred for the "gringo"? You mean us by that?

Yes

Is there a lot of it in Mexico?

A lot. As a matter of fact, I don't think you could imagine just how much you're not liked in
Mexico

Maybe you'd better tell us, Paco

Well, there's quite a number of reasons for this I believe that the principal reason for this is that
in every Latin American country, and I'm not speaking only for Mexico The foreign companies -
that is English, French and American companies control practically everything And you find that
unless you have the raw materials, that is, that the nation controls its own raw materials, it cannot
progress And it cannot progress because in order to [receive foreign] investment, it's forced to
give legal concessions [to foreign companies] And those legal concessions, even though they do
give a small profit to the nation, it is not the same as it would be if they could hold everything
[themselves]. So you see that's the reason

But Paco, is this dislike of the "gringos" as you call us, as great now in Mexico as it was, say, at
the time of the expropriation of the oil?

Well not exactly... See, you've heard a lot about the hospitality in Mexico, and all of it is true But
the thing is that most of the people go to Mexico as tourists or whatnot, go with the idea of trying
to compare their standard of living [to ours] And you cannot do that with any country of the
world, because it's well known for everybody that the US has the highest standard of living

I'm sure every one of the students would agree that you can't compare it Chit, I wanted to ask
you a question, what about the idea of white supremacy? Is that dead in Asia?

What exactly do you mean Mrs. Waller?

When we were talking about vestiges of colonialism... We know that for a time in Asia there
was, whatever you want to call it, a myth, or an idea, or a supposition, of white supremacy. Is
that completely dead now?

At least in India we don't have any color thing, we don't say that white is better than colored. All
are equal But I think in Africa, it exists side by side.

I mean it's now dying, but at the same time we are giving birth to new white supremacy If you
come to the Gold Coast now it is dying, and I think before the end of this year the whites will
take their supremacy out of the Gold Coast But if you go to certain other parts in Africa, it is
now reviving. I mean it's awakening from the death

One more question to you Chit, you say there's no difference between Western and Eastern,
what about the Anglo-Indians in India? The people who are half-European and half-Indian? Are
they fully accepted members of society?

Oh yes, as fully as myself

There are no disabilities whatsoever?

No, not at all, our constitution even gives them some special rights also Because they're in a
minority group, so they have more rights than us even, they have more advantages also Also they
have some members specially nominated to parliament for their sake, and they are free to take
part in all the elections

Now you've gotten us on the verge of another subject that I'd like to go into next, which is... As
we're talking about underdeveloped areas and how you're developing What activity, what
developmental activity in your country right now, is your government most concerned with? I
think we'd like to hear from each of the four of you on that

Well, in my country we've got three phases of development. The first one is agricultural
development, the second one is educational, and the third one is political

Well as for my country, I believe that the greatest campaign that the government is taking now
into consideration is the education of the masses - and not of individuals

Can you tell us in Mexico how quickly you have raised the literacy rate?

Well, I think that all of it has been based in patriotism, ma'am About 10 years ago there was a
campaign coming from the presidency of the nation, and it it said that every Mexican should
teach five Mexicans And if we could accomplish that, then within 5-10 years we could have
most of the people knowing how to read and write

[crosstalk] Just a minute, let Raul [have a word]

Did you perform any of that sort of education which you said the government campaigned for?

Well I did, up to a certain extent

Not your maid, by any chance?

My maid?

Yes [lauging]. Go ahead

I think on that point, the Gold Coast is the leading country so far in the world in the campaign
against mass illiteracy Because we are using the Lobach [?] system to educate people who
couldn't get the opportunity...

What is that Nene?

Well, it is something like visual aids. We use signs, for instance we want to pick the letter "S"...
We use the sign of snake, and we draw the snake just like the "S" And so when the fellow sees
the snake he gets the letter in his head, and so he starts learning how to write "S" through seeing
the snake

How long does it take under this system to teach people to read and write?

I think just about three weeks

Three weeks?!

Learn the whole alphabet in three weeks?

Yes, I mean people are able to read and write in three weeks. And at the end of the campaign
they get certificates

Don't you think that form of educating the illiterate ones is sort of primitive?

No, the point is, I mean it was invented by a French scientist, you know it's a new system, and
most of the people who undertake this education are elderly people You see people at the age of
80 or 100 coming to learn how to read and write before they die I think it's the best system you
can get, but it operates best in Africa especially in the Gold Coast simply because we do get...

Get snakes?

[laughter and crosstalk] You've got tarantulas, haven't you, in Mexico?

I mean, we get people from all parts of the world coming to see how we operate on that system
We've got a lot of Americans visiting the Gold Coast, and UNESCO is very much interested in
that program

Well, how about the Mexican system? When you taught so many people to read so quickly? Did
you use any simplified system like this?

Well, we couldn't have a letter that looked like a car in the street though, but what we did was
that the government gave out these special tablets And they had all the letters and basic
principles. [They gave them] to anybody, to explain to anybody, and it really worked And I'm
very much surprised to find out from Gold Coast right here, that he thinks that the Gold Coast is
far more advanced than any other country
No, it's just that in this particular system UNESCO acknowledges the Gold Coast as being the
leading country in the campaign against mass illiteracy

You Mexicans are proud of your campaign against it, I think this is a wonderful subject on
which you can compete with each other and see who's best Paco, you were interrupted a moment
ago when you were telling what part you had in this mass literacy campaign. Did you teaching
teach five people how to read and write?

Well, not quite five people ma'am, because I wasn't much of a teacher. I did it when I was 13
and I taught my maid how to read and write

And she got a certificate did she?

Well, she got my certificate

We skipped two of you when we were talking about what developmental activity your
government was stressing most, what about India, Chit?

At present our government is concentrating on heavy industry, because the government realizes
the importance of the heavy industry See, any nation who wants to be free and advanced has to
have its own production and machines, and we should not be dependent on any other country for
those machines And unless we get them and produce them in our country, we can't be as
advanced as other countries are But that doesn't mean that we're not giving any attention to other
things; damn building, literacy work, and all those things are going. But the most importance is
being given to heavy industry at present

How about the Philippines, Raul?

On the other hand, my government is stressing very much importance on the development of the
agricultural industry And most of the aid comes from the US, I should say

Tell us a little bit more about, it will you Raul? What is the program?

Well, you see the Philippines and America are involved in a democratic partnership, as they call
it It's sort of a system wherein they try to foster closer and more harmonious relations between
the peoples of the two countries And it also includes the sending of US equipment and
commodities to the Philippines as approved and recommended by Philippine and American
experts But the Philippine government also plays a part in that. They have to provide the money
so that those commodities sent by America can be used

How many Americans do you think there are in Philippines at the present?

Americans? Well, I don't know exactly, but I can tell you that the aim is to have a more
diversified economy for the Philippines, greater production, and higher income for the
agricultural and industrial laborers

Do you get most of those things free, or in the forms of loans and all those things?

Well, we get most of them free

I'm afraid of this point, because we don't believe in getting things free from any country

There is selfish purpose in behind all of that

Well, I don't think there is a selfish purpose, because the purpose of America is to strengthen the
Philippine economy Because it believes that the Philippines gets much of its strength from
developed rural communities

Oh, well this is how I take it to be: I've seen that America is very much interested in the Far East
countries simply because they fear there might be some communist colonization in those
countries, you know? Especially the Philippines, I think it is of strategic importance to the
United States If you come to Africa for instance, we lack most of these things, you know? We
don't get [free] American things

Well, I should say Nene, I guess all of us are against the certain communistic principles, if not all
And in strengthening the Philippines, Don't you think that it also strengthens the free world in
some way?

Well, it doesn't strengthen the free world. I mean perhaps the words "democratic colonization" is
what we should call it

I want to get Raul to give us some more information... Do you have any personal background of
experience with this land development?

I have personal experience in this kind of work. You see in the Philippines we have what we call
the Federation of Free Workers The purpose of this is to, well, raise the standards of the working
conditions of laborers, especially the farmers Now with regards to farmers, we have a branch
under that, the Federation of Free Farmers And the Federation of Free Farmers has another
branch, the Junior Federation of Free Farmers to which I belong That started in a Jesuit school
ironically, and I belong to a Benedictine school Well, you see this is how we do it - we form
committees, and every weekend we go to the remote barrios about 100 or so miles from the city
of Manila, the capital of the Philippines And we bring with us some books, magazines, rice and
corn seeds, flour bags And we sell them to the people of those small communities which can't be
reached so easily, at a very low price, you see? And most of the time, I mean all of the time, we
have to endure so many hardships

Who subsidizes the price, the Americans?

No, not the Americans. We have funds you know, we get them from the students of the colleges
there are sorts of membership fees

Something like charities?

Something like that. And well, with regards to the hardships that we encounter Most of those
lands are below the mountains where there are operations going on between the communist and
government forces So we have, well, the fear of dying, so we have to receive holy communion
almost every time we go there

Do you have many communists?

Well it's slowly fading away, you know? And the area is not accessible to transportation, so we
have to use these carabao wheel carts, and we ride on them And sometimes when the people
don't expect us to be coming, then usually we'll have no food to eat, so we we turn to unripe
bananas and these hard bread that they make in the provinces

What form of government do you have, a democracy?

We have a democracy

Aafter the American pattern, or after the British pattern?

Exactly the American

I see. When did America become interested in Philippines?

Well, it started around the late 1800s you know, when America took the Philippines away from
Spain But well, you know the Filipinos are sort of hostile and so recalcitrant, that they thought at
first that America was selfish But when America liberated the Philippines from Japan, they really
found out that the spirit with which America did those things was a spirit of brotherhood, to help
the fallen brother rise up once more

Well, how many natural resources have you got? Because I fear that if America is interested in
the Philippines, simply it means America is interested because she wants to exploit your natural
resources for her own benefits

We have a lot of natural resources, you know

I see that's a very easy reason why any country should be interested in another country
Moreover, when this country's in the Far East, and when it has the resources, and when as you
said it still has communists within the island

I still say that America's motive is strengthening the Philippines in order to strengthen the free
world

Excuse me, I want to get back to some of your personal experiences. We can learn so much from
them as we understand what's going on in your countries today You were talking about the
inaccessibility of some of these villages that you go into It was "caribou carts"? Chit asked you a
question and then the answer got lost. "Caribou carts" that you go on to get there?

Yes, Mrs. Waller

And what else? Do you ever have to walk or hike into them?

Well, not so much hiking but sometimes we have to remove the tires from the Jeep wheels, and
we let them run on the railroad tracks Fortunately they fit most of the time on the tracks

What if they don't?

If they don't if they don't, well we do some hiking

I never knew that a Jeep wheel with the tire taken off would fit on a railroad rim It can You just
use the rim? Fascinating means of transportation

It's news to me too

Now look, all of you who are here have got exceptionally good education or you wouldn't have
been chosen But I'd like to know what your schools are doing in your countries to prepare the
kind of people that your countries are going to need, obviously With these new purposes, you're
going to need a different kind of educated man

Well, in the Gold Coast it is dependent upon the educational system, and we have [increasingly]
stiff examinations as we go along, and so we are able to divide the people into classes People
who are fit for technical education go to technical schools. People who can do the academic
work go to the academic schools, I mean the ordinary high schools And people who can do the
vocational work go to the trade schools. And by doing so we are able to get the [appropriate]
people for the engineering side, and the people for the academic side

How old do you have to be when you have to decide?

I think when you are in the third year of high school, and at that year you choose your own
subjects And by doing so I think we are now going to produce a lot of engineers, people who can
manage our technical operations and all those things

What about Mexico, Paco?

Well ma'am, Mexico has been carrying out, shall I say, a great campaign within the last 10 years
As a matter of fact the percentage of [illiterate] people is fairly small, I should say, [compared] to
the rest of those ones who know [how to read]. And it wasn't like that 10 years ago

What are you, about 60% literate in Mexico?

No ma'am, it is a little more than that, least 75%

About 10 or 20 years ago it was less than 50%, wasn't it?

Yes ma'am, it was something like that. See, what happened was that the government has opened
up technical schools, and is [creating] all kinds of facilities, and making better teachers, you
know, better systems of teaching And we've been "getting places", as you say, with that system I
think this has worked and the purpose of the Mexican education is to teach the masses of the
people I'd like to know what the rest of the fellows here have to say concerning education,
because I'm very much interested
In India, the system that was put in under the British, and enforced by the British The main
purpose of that system was to produce scribes and clerks and administrators Most of whom
would not like to work with their hands. They did not understand the dignity of labour They
always wanted these white collar jobs and to sit in a desk and scribble away, they didn't want to
use their hands But when our national government came into being, they changed that system,
because we knew that unless we realized the dignity of labour, India could not go far And so the
government changed the system, and now we have quite a number of schools are after the basic
system The basic system is a system in which you are taught woodwork, metalwork, and
agriculture and all, starting lower classes You start down in the lower classes, so that by the time
you get up [to higher grades], you don't have anything against the dignity of labour

And you do have compulsory education for all children?

Oh yes, our constitution says that every every child should have at least primary education,
compulsorily

That's not true yet in the Gold Coast, is it Nene?

We have free [education], but not compulsory. I mean, the schools belong to the various local
councils and everybody can go to the school provided you get admission to the school, that's the
problem

Are your teachers British, or did they study in Great Britain?

Oh yes, most of our teachers do study in Great Britain. At this stage we do like to send a lot of
students to various parts of the world I'm happy to hear that supposedly this morning a lot of
Gold Coast students arrived at Idlewilde airport And when I was coming, I came with 15 on the
same plane coming to study in the US

15? What were they going to study here, Nene?

Well, they are coming to study various fields. Most of them like to go to the best universities in
the world For instance, we don't recognize most of the American colleges - we recognize just a
few of them, because we like to produce the best. That's what we do Our president would like to
send a lot of students overseas to study various things, to come back and replace the Englishmen
as they go
Do they pay their own money?

Yes, the Gold Coast's money. The Gold Coast is comparatively a wealthy country, you see

But it's a government scholarship, I think Chit was asking

Yes, most of them are sent by the Cocoa Marketing Board

The Cocoa Marketing Board?

Yes, you know the Gold Coast is the chief producer of cocoa in the world, we produce 50% of
cocoa In order to keep the price of cocoa constant in the Gold Coast, we set up this board - and
the board buys cocoa at £3 a bag in the country, and we sell it to the US at £15 a bag And
thereby creating a large amount of profit, you know? And we use this profit to balance the price
in the country in case the price falls in the world market, so that the price is constant

And you are telling the United States now?

Oh yes I'm telling them, it's not something that's sacred. We like to get money, without that you
can't carry on with the Volta river project for instance, which is going to cost a lot

I want to ask you one more question. What is the most significant development in your country,
in your lifetimes, because you've really been living history, people who are 17 and 18

In India the most important political development was that India got its independence from the
British.

That was in 1947 Do you remember that? What do you remember about it?

Well, at that time I was just over 8 years old, and as I remember the day that independence was
declared, I was up in a hill station A hill station is a town in the hills, you know? And I was
studying out there and one day my uncle came, and that was independence day And he told me
that India had got independence. I was very happy, I didn't know why, but I was

In my case it is the gradual development towards self-government Because just in my lifetime, I

think even about four years ago the Gold Coast was wholly under the British But we had to fight
for our independence, and at present we've got internal self-government, and we believe that
before the end of this year we are going to join the UN organization for instance
What would you say Paco for Mexico?

Well, ma'am, for Mexico, I'll say that it is a fact that throughout Latin America in the 1800s we
were the first country who got its independence We were the first country who had a university
within the American continent, we were the first country in the 1850s to separate the church
from the state We were the first country in 1910 who had a well-planned division, shall I say, of
the the land; of the big land owners against the people who had nothing And in 1939 we made a
huge step forward to gain our of the basis of our economy which is oil. And we took it away
from the American companies

And that you remember well, I'm sure... I'm sorry our time's gone Aww, too bad It went so
quickly. Thank you all; Nene and Paco and Genevieve and Chit and Raul, for taking part in
tonight's discussion We're grateful too to Scholastic magazines for some of the background
material on underdeveloped areas Next week the discussion subject will be... [CUT]