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Pyrometry Webinar – Q&A

Concerning security temperature, what requirement do we have to apply (±


5, ±10°C) during TUS?
There is no requirement for the indicated temperature, unless the over-
temperature device is also used as a process monitor. In that case, Section
3.5.17.1 would apply. We would expect the setting to be ‘as for normal
production’.

We will close the factory during 3 weeks at the end of the year. Can we
deduct these days of stops for the following of our SAT and TUS, knowing
that the furnaces are not used during this period?
No. The test frequencies take no account of holidays, shutdowns, breakdowns
etc. There is no requirement to do tests if the equipment is not in use, but a valid
test must be done before processing restarts. This often means that the first job
after a vacation is to do SAT on each furnace.

How many decimals must we take into account (SAT, TUS, secondary
calibration of standard)
The requirement is that equipment is readable to 1F or 1C. The specifications in
AMS2750D were defined in whole degrees Fahrenheit. The pyrometry reference
guide FAQ26 describes working to fractions of a degree F and rounding to whole
numbers before making decisions. IN Europe the requirements, converted from
Fahrenheit, are stated to 0.1C and cannot be rounded. If you can work to 0.1C
then do so.

What are the requirements for calibration of refrigeration instruments?


This is described in the pyrometry reference guide located on the webinar page
of eQuaLearn and in the public documents section of www.eAuditNet.com.
Calibration of instruments is required at least every six months, usually done at
the same time as an SAT. There is no requirement to do TUS on refrigeration
equipment.

Where can I find the requirements for calibration of vacuum lines?


Not in AMS2750. General vacuum requirements are given in AMS2769, which
also includes the frequency of testing. There are no defined accuracy limits for
vacuum equipment in either standard. Some customers do make a requirement
while most vacuum equipment suppliers work to “0.3x decade”, while some
customers

1
Point 3.2.6.2 calibrations records: If there was no adjustment what
information should be showed on the certificate?
The requirement is to give ‘as found’ and ‘as left’ data. If no adjustment is made
and the two sets of results are the same then this must be clear on the report.
Many companies have spaces for two sets of data and simply over-write one of
them with “no adjustments made. ‘As left’ = ‘as found’”

Are SAT tests required for high and low couples?


Yes. SAT’s are required on the high and low monitor couples used in Type A & C
furnaces. See last sentence of section 3.4.1.

On a circular chart, what data shall be recorded, as a minimum, by the TUS


operator?
The general requirement is to record data from the furnace instruments at two
minute intervals. See section 3.5.13.3.2.a. The type of chart recording makes no
difference to this requirement.

Does AMS 2750 D have requirements for cryogenic furnace use?


Yes. Cryogenic systems are refrigeration systems. Section 3.3.1.6.1 applies.
‘Time at temperature’ treatments generally means all treatments used to
complete transformations in steels. Refrigeration to retard aging in aluminum
alloys is not a ‘Time at temperature’ treatment. Instrument calibration and SAT
are required at six monthly intervals (see the pyrometry reference guide FAQ).

What is the minimum temperature that a load thermocouple needs to get to


for it to count as a cycle?
This is not defined, but would reflect the lowest specified treatment temperature.
Essentially it would be any excursion above ambient – which can be as high as
45C in some parts of Europe and Asia in the summer. In practice the lowest
specified treatment temperature would be about 100C for metal treatments, but
could be lower for paint and composite curing ovens.

Do you suggest Interpolation of correction factors?


My personal opinion and the Nadcap Heat Treat Task Group recommendation is
‘Yes’, but the use of the nearest known value above or below are also allowed.
See the pyrometry reference guide for comments on this. Whatever method is
used must be defined in your procedures and applied consistently.

2
Should TUS be done with or without loads?
This depends on the type and construction of the furnace. Some air circulating
furnaces are best tested empty, gas fired furnaces often need a typical load.
Vacuum furnaces need something to divide the volume so as to allow
determination of the effects of hot spots in the heaters. AMS2750D requires that
you choose one method and stick with it, and that any load or rack is defined and
described in the TUS report.

What is the relation between the number of thermocouples for dummy load
test and TUS?
The number of TUS test thermocouples must comply with table 11. The number
of load couples during a TUS is the number required by you furnace type -
usually one load couple per control zone. Note that the load couple used for type
A & B furnaces is in addition to the number of TUS couples defined in table 11.

When you have a short during the TUS, can you just repair the short and
continue the survey, or should you restart your 30 minute cycle?
Normally, you can continue the survey. The Pyrometry Reference Guide on P25
says: “A temporary condition such as a short or loose connection where normal
temperature readout is restored shall not be considered a failed survey
thermocouple.” The only time this might be a problem is if the interruption occurs
during the initial transient, when it might hide an unacceptable over-shoot.

Can you round your calculated SAT result?


Yes, but you should not round it by more than 0.1C because that is the accuracy
to which the SAT difference is specified in Table 6.

Can you clarify bullet 14 section 3.5.21.1 of AMS2750D regarding summary


of final plus or minus readings at each temperature?
This means the max and min variation from the set point. It could be a +/+ or -/-
result. For example a TUS at 900c gave instantaneous max = 905C and
min=897C. The TUS result is +5/-3C

Part one of my question is fairly simple, does para 3.5.13.3.3 allow for
oscillations in temperatures recorded during a TUS, so longs as those
oscillations remain within the tolerances applicable for that furnace
class/type? say +/-5°C
Yes. Any oscillation must stay within the applicable tolerance.

3
We need to work to 0.1 but if we read 0.01 which should we do?
If you can read to 0.01C then do so, and calculate the correction factors to the
best possible resolution, but round the final values to 0.1C before making any
decisions. This should be described in your procedures.

Must we do SAT on thermocouple in oil bath used for quench?


Yes. Every six months to an accuracy of +/-5F/ 3C. See FAQ 28 on page 37-38
of the Pyrometry Reference Guide.

A paper chart recorder sometimes prints the temperatures every 1 minute...


does this print out constitute a digital output? Prints out the numeric digits
In such a case you would have an instrument with an attached printer. This
would be digital and could be calibrated in accordance with the ‘digital’
requirements of note 5 to table 3. However, you must also ensure that the
process can be verified from this data – that means the “one data set per minute”
must allow determination of the start and end of soak and of any specified
heating or cooling rates.

What kind of products (different from sodium fluoborate) can I use to


protect from HTO ?
This is outside the scope of this training and presentation. However, Fluoborate
(Ammonium or Sodium) is the normal protection. Depending on your customers
and their requirements, it is possible to run without this if you can prove (by initial
and regular testing) that no hydrogen induced porosity occurs.

About U rule §3.1.1.10 : for thermocouple in salt bath, how to know the
number of used cycle ? The bath is always at the same T°
Section 3.1.1.10 applies only to expendable load couples. I have never seen
these used in association with salt baths, so I suspect that this question applies
to control monitoring and recording couple rather than load couples. U factor
does not apply to these thermocouples. For U factor for load couples used in a
salt bath, a cycle would be once from ambient up to furnace temperature and
back again.

For type D furnaces, only 2 thermocouples are necessary:1 for over T°


security and 1 for the regulation who is recording ?
Correct. One thermocouple is connected to the controller (regulator) and is also
recorded. The second one must be attached to an over-temperature instrument.

4
Can you explain how to calculate correctly the furnaces offsets? Both via
SAT and TUS
This is beyond the scope of this brief presentation and typically occupies 20-30
minutes during the full Pyrometry training course.

According to the AMS WE CAN NOT USE sensors type E and K but I don't
know why? Over than 260°C
This is incorrect. There is no rule in AMS2750D that says E & K cannot be used
over 260C. There are limits on their re-use and recalibration for load and test
(SAT & TUS) thermocouples (see sections 3.1.1.8 and 3.1.1.11), but they can be
used at any temperature within the range recommended by the manufacturer..

Does the load thermocouple have to actually touch the product or can it be
very close?
See section 8.2.25. Load sensors must be attached to the production material or
a representation of the production material.

Furnace oscillations are not accounted for in the SAT methodology, this
was highlighted during our recent audit.
This is a matter for your detailed procedures. If the furnaces oscillate then you
should defined how to take measurements. SAT is defined as an instantaneous
check, so you should usually track the oscillations for couple of cycles and then
take readings at the top or bottom of the cycle. At these moments the rate of
change is lowest and there is usually a period of 10-30 seconds when
comparative readings can be made.

If initial TUS working range is 500 - 1200 deg.(we TUS at 500 - 750 - 1000 -
1200) are periodic TUS at 800 & 1000 degrees ok as they capture +-335
deg. We currently do periodics the same as initial
This question is under discussion and a full response will be supplied in a
week or so.

Do you need an SAT thermocouple to check the cold spot thermocouple?


See above and the pyrometry reference guide. If the cold spot thermocouple is
used to control the process (as in Type A & C furnaces) then SAT is required.

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