Third Party Watch

The Return of HoT? The Launch of LibertyMix?
What’s that you say? So maybe finally, after a long awaited period of time… could it be? Maybe Hammer of Truth is back and LibertyMix is finally launched? I get a little clock counting down to 7:00 AM Eastern Time… Now I’ve never jumped in this fight because I didn’t invest any money and to be honest aren’t really sure what this “LibertyMix” thing is… but Hammer of Truth was a web site I checked several times daily, and frankly, I’ve missed it… Will the critics be silenced? Will it be a flop? Apparently we’ll see at 7:00 AM.
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172 Responses to “The Return of HoT? The Launch of LibertyMix?”
1. Austin Cassidy Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 7:48 am

Interesting… only 13 minutes left to go. 2. Austin Cassidy Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 8:19 am

This feels like New Year’s Eve!

And the announcement…. —————————————————Fans of liberty, I’m sure by now, most of you are all like “WTF?” about HoT and LibertyMix being on constant delay, but rest assured I am working my ass off getting the bugs

fixed (I’m a perfectionist, which is detrimental to deadlines) in order to launch what I expect will be the biggest libertarian community site on the Internet. I know it’s been a little quiet in this corner of the web since I took HoT offline for the transition and I’m sorry about that. I miss having things up just as much if not much more than all of you (there’s a certain $200K I’d love to be blogging about, ya know?). I know there’s a pretty damn good lesson here about self-imposed deadlines and keeping everyone in the loop – rest assured that’s not lost on me. I promise that the next announcement you will hear from me in the coming days will be the directions to the signup page Thanks for your patience, Stephen VanDyke 3. Michael Hampton Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 8:22 am

Perfection is stupid. Not to mention impossible. Release early and often, bugs or no bugs. 4. Chris Hickman Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 8:22 am

http://conversate.org/conversation/3HWI8 is the “clearinghouse” for discussion on this issue. Came here from the link posted after this: “Fans of liberty, I’m sure by now, most of you are all like “WTF?” about HoT and LibertyMix being on constant delay, but rest assured I am working my ass off getting the bugs fixed (I’m a perfectionist, which is detrimental to deadlines) in order to launch what I expect will be the biggest libertarian community site on the Internet. I know it’s been a little quiet in this corner of the web since I took HoT offline for the transition and I’m sorry about that. I miss having things up just as much if not much more than all of you (there’s a certain $200K I’d love to be blogging about, ya know?). I know there’s a pretty damn good lesson here about self-imposed deadlines and keeping everyone in the loop – rest assured that’s not lost on me.

I promise that the next announcement you will hear from me in the coming days will be the directions to the signup page Thanks for your patience, Stephen VanDyke” Self-imposed deadlines? Try lies – We were told it was DONE and ready to go for election Tuesday! Why would you miss that 5-month late deadline and THEN put up a launch timer if it STILL wasn’t ready? You’d have to be a complete moron, just as we (the donors) all were for supporting vaporware in the first place. As I posted in the other place, I actually got up early to see this. Well sorta. I’m going back to bed now. I don’t suppose anyone is going to respond to my e-mails (as usual) so I’ll have to go back to posting at the lp.org blog. I suggest you all do the same as it is the only real way that anyone is going to pay attention to this… hit ‘em at home. 5. Chris Hickman Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 8:27 am

Also, whatever happened to the PUBLIC beta that was promised? Why does it have to be “perfect” for the “founding subscribers” to TEST? A public beta was promised almost a year ago and never provided. That would be the quickest way to work out any bugs – test it out with an understanding member base. It’s things like that which convince me even more strongly that SVD is a bs con artist and this “project” is never going to happen. Having Badnarik stump for donations for you and then have him be a part of a 6-figure campaign financing scandal doesn’t help either. 6. Stephen VanDyke Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 8:31 am

Chris Hickman: I readily admit I should not have set deadlines I was unable to meet. Be realist though and understand that I’m just one person building an immense website that I myself am more than eager to launch. 7. Michael Hampton Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 8:32 am

I paid $25 into this little scheme, too, and I’m STILL waiting to see one line of code. Oh well, if it happens, it happens. In the meantime, if you’re really jonesing for some libertarian stuff to read, there’s always Homeland Stupidity. Written by one of the (former? future?) HoT bloggers, yours truly.

8. Michael Hampton Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 8:33 am

Hey, SVD, ignore all these conversation threads and go back to fixing bugs! 9. Stephen VanDyke Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 8:35 am

Look dude, I don’t have shit to do with Hacker’s mess with Badnarik’s campaign finance, so you need to back the fuck up with that nonsense. I refuse to be lumped in with that fraudster which is ALL THE MORE FUCKING REASON I’M CODING MY ASS OFF RIGHT NOW! Jesus, you guys can be ruthless some times. 10. Austin Cassidy Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 8:45 am

Looking forward to seeing the new site, SVD. Stuff happens and things get pushed back, it’s just how life goes. 11. Barry Wray Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 9:09 am

This delay kinda adds new meaning to Harry Browne’s favorite catch phrase —“Government Doesn’t Work”. 12. mrjarrell Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 9:16 am

yawn Colour me unsurprised. Yet another delay and more excuses? Par for the course on this matter. Maybe it’ll be up by spring…. 13. Eric Sundwall Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 9:33 am

Ouch. There is nothing worse than an expectation that can’t be met when everything else is perfectly lined up. I use ‘Bloglines’ to get all my stuff and this little line my shed some light on the difficulties he’s facing; ” This is a temporary placeholder for the RSS. FeedBurner was whining. Please disregard.” Unfortunately getting $25 bucks from erstwhile libertarians may not have been such a good idea. It’s much easier to give assurances to one big investor/client and keep them in the loop. But, a little humility sprinkled on a big old humble pie will help SVD in the long run. It’ll happen, nothing is going on this time of year anyway . . . relax. An old boss used to say ” It’s not like we have an astronaut out there waiting to die”.

14. Meg Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 10:45 am

I must say that I am SHOCKED by this totally unforseen turn of events. Actually, we were told in November that the site was already done. So, Van Dyke was lying then, or he’s lying now. 15. HippyChimp Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 10:52 am

Steven, looking forward to visiting HoT again. Coding usually takes longer than initially expected, I personally would have taken a page out of John Carmack’s book and said “It’ll be done when it’s done” and left it at that. That being said, clients like to see progress. I didn’t come across HoT until after people donated their $25, but I do deal with clients and coding projects daily. A beta site would probably keep the hounds at bay… Anyway, good luck and I can’t wait to see the new site. 16. mariannna Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 11:10 am

Hi all! p G’night 17. Nick Wilson Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 11:16 am

I think the humility in his latest message is at least more promising than the “critics will eat their words” of his last update. I still hope that everyone eats their words – the graphics DO look pretty damn professional, at least. But yeah, Stephen, nobody loses by you releasing the beta – it’s not like people don’t expect there to be bugs in a beta, so really, launching the beta will help soothe your perfectionism by letting everyone rapidly find the program glitches instead of you having to find them all yourself slowly. And you will be forgiven if there’s some glitches – people just want to see a product. I know the delays only up the ante of everyone’s expectations, but just give us something. 18. Nick Wilson Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 11:17 am

Steven – misspelled. Sorry.

19. Ian Bernard Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 11:27 am

SVD: At least you finally communicated to us. A little bit of that goes a long way. Considering the delays and total lack of information from you at this point, I nearly expected the timer to reset this morning. 20. Meg Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 11:56 am

I think I’ve figured it out. That timer wasn’t a countdown to the release of Libertymix or HoT, but a countdown to the latest excuse (in a long list of them.) 21. Chuck Moulton Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 12:23 pm

Patience is a virtue. 22. Stuart Richards Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 12:43 pm

I miss HoT. I’m very happy to be on TPW and to have my own blog kinda sorta going, but I miss HoT. 23. Meg Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 1:10 pm

Patience is a virtue? Well, we’ve been “virtuous” for about 11 months, and now we want what was promised. Hey, know some other virtues? Honesty. Integrity. Doing what you say you’re gonna do, when you say you’re gonna do it. Let’s see some more of that up in here. 24. Deived Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 1:54 pm

I did get excited when I saw the counter yesterday, but jeez guys. Here’s a guy (Stephen) trying to put together something for you guys, and all you want is NOW NOW NOW! I can understand the frustration from those who contributed, but for those that havent… calm the f*&$ down! I miss HoT just as much as the next guy, but to sit here and spew crap and spit on Stephen for not getting it done when he said he would, doesn’t seem to make a whole lot of sense to me. If you really want something put up, go here – http://wordpress.org/ – or here – http://www.joomla.org/ – for some tools to do it yourself, and lets see if you can put together your own HoT.

25. Stuart Richards Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 2:00 pm

Yeah, I should add that the disappearance of HoT is the primary motivation for the existence of Last Free Voice. So far it’s got me, Michelle Shinghal, and it’ll soon have Paulie Cannoli too. If you’ve got some experience with blogging or at least with being intelligently opinionated, we’d love for you to come join our staff. 26. matt Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 2:14 pm

I liked the old HoT, and if the new one’s better, then it’s totally worth the wait. Of course, this is the perspective of someone with no money sunk into the project. 27. SMiles Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 2:32 pm

For Jah’s sake … release the dang thing! This is ridiculous! I wasn’t even that big of a fan of HoT until the lady blogger got pissy about the 911 issue. But I like social networking sites and the world needs a good Libertarian one ASAP! Please please please, forget about perfection and release your product!! Fix it as bugs come up. I’ve got no money sunk into this LibertyMix thang but … JEEZ, move FORWARD NOW. SMiles 28. DAP Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 2:35 pm

SVD sucks at life. 29. Jim Phelps Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 2:55 pm

sux 30. megan Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 3:09 pm

If you really want something put up, go here – http://wordpress.org/ – or here – http://www.joomla.org/ – for some tools to do it yourself, and lets see if you can put together your own HoT. That’s good advice, and some have started to do that… But that’s not the point. We’re not complaining JUST because HoT has gone down. We’re complaining because we were sold a bill of goods to the tune of over $10,000 which has yet to materialize. We’re complaining because we’ve received NOTHING in return for almost a year, but excuses, delays, and derision (yes, they even made fun of people for asking what was going on.) And I’m worried about the consistancy of the excuses, as well. I mean, we were told like 6 months ago that the site was done, but SVD “didn’t back up” his info and it got deleted! Then, we were told that it wasn’t done. Then we were told (again) that it WAS done, and would be released election day. Now, we’re told it’s NOT done (again.) And we were told it was being made from scratch. Later, we were told it was being made from Wordpress, a freely available blogging software. Then, we were told that Michael Badnarik was endorsing LibertyMix. But later, Badnarik said he had no idea what it was, and had never heard of it! Delays, obfuscations, lies, deceit, and mockery and scorn of those who simply want the truth (as well as what they paid $10,000 for). Not a good way to further the movement. 31. megan Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 3:32 pm

A Brief History of LibertyMix.com Delays: Release Date: 2/06 (beta for donors) Excuse: ? Release Date: 4/15/06 Excuse: Greeks are always late for things Release Date: 6/6/06 Excuse: “accidently overwritten the portion of the code for nesting comments and hierarchical article display” Release Date: 10/28/06 Excuse: “It’s done, but I’m not pulling back the curtain just yet.” (In other words, I just don’t want to.)

Release Date: 11/07 Excuse: ? Release Date: 12/14/06 Excuse: It’s just not done yet (?) I think there are a few more, but since HoT is down, I can’t search for them. 32. torah Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 3:58 pm

It could be worse, LibertyMix could have collected $411,000 from you folks and received 4% of the vote in a Congressional race. When it hits the Net, it’ll be beautiful. Worth the wait. BTW, could someone point out – or post the link – the original blog posting by Mike Nelson that got L. Ron Hacker all upset? I want to see what all was being reported… 33. Derrick Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 4:02 pm

Steven, I suggest that the best tact would be to say “it’ll be launched when it’s ready” and just keep people updated on the progress, so they know you’re still working on it. I don’t think people are cheesed so much because they’re in a hurry for you to launch the sites, but because their hopes keep getting raised and then dropped. If I were a paid supporter (which I’m not) I would much rather see something like this: “12/14 – Hey guys, i’m still working on this. Finished moderation code, and am now working on RSS feeds.” ...than this: “12/14 – I promise that the next announcement you will hear from me in the coming days will be the directions to the signup page” Just keep people posted on what’s happening, and 96% of them will be cool with you. 34. Jason Gatties Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 4:05 pm

Maybe Megan you should get off your dead lazy ass and create TheRealLibertyMix.com or something. Anything would be better than reading you whine about this constantly. My wife is a web designer and she does custom coding and I know for a fact that sometimes….shit happens. Coding is very touchy. So stop bitching. If it comes out, it comes out. If it don’t, ask for your “donation” back or create your own site. Just stop crying about the shit already. 35. Mike N. Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 4:27 pm

BTW, could someone point out – or post the link – the original blog posting by Mike Nelson that got L. Ron Hacker all upset? I want to see what all was being reported… There is a handy little search feature on this site: http://thirdpartywatch.com/index.php?s=hacker 36. Meg Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 4:34 pm

“Jason”, you know nothing about me. If you did, you’d not call me lazy; in fact I detest sloth in all forms. I have every right to complain, and you’re not gonna bully me out of it. I notice that out of all those around the web who’ve expressed displeasure at this fiasco, you honed in on and singled out the lone female voice to curse at and attack. Make you feel tough, does it? And neither you nor any others who deride me answer me on the merits, just “you complain too much”. Get a life. If you think I am wrong, debate me on the issue. But I think facts and logic aren’t your style. You just don’t like uppity women. 37. Meg Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 4:39 pm

Oh, and if you don’t like my “bitching”, do the libertarian thing and don’t read it. 38. Mike N. Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 4:40 pm

LOL! This Meg chick is cool.

39. matt Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 5:01 pm

“SVD sucks at life.” No, no, no. If Mr. Van Dyke wanted to walk off with your money he would have done it quietly and left everyone in the dark. Apparently he hasn’t done that. Thieves suck at life, and so do losers, that’s about it. SVD must not be too much of a loser, either, since he’s able to articulate a business plan that draws $10,000 in investment. I’m a little frustrated too, but let’s not focus our hostility on some guy who’s ostensibly trying to make things better. 40. Mike N. Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 5:05 pm

matt is right. SVD has done a lot more good than harm (if any) to the Libertarian cause. It is not like he took 31% of the donations and is now begging for $200k more to write some bogus report on why he is a failure. I do believe you will actually see a return on your investment, sooner or later. 41. Wes P Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 5:41 pm

By now we should all be clear that Stephen bit off more than he could chew (on schedule) when he signed up for this, and wishes like hell that he’d handled it better. I wish that he’d architected it such that he could release it in coherent phases before it was all done and working, but apparently he didn’t and bitching won’t change that. Stephen, given that we’ve all been disappointed by broken promises many times, there’s no point in making further optimistic predictions of when you’ll be really really ready. Just please keep us in the loop every day or so. You don’t have to give us a technical analysis of the situation, but a few sentences about your work each day would be reassuring. 42. Roberta Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 6:17 pm

Meg: “I have every right to complain, and you’re not gonna bully me out of it. I notice that out of all those around the web who’ve expressed displeasure at this fiasco, you honed in on and singled out the lone female voice to curse at and attack. Make you feel tough, does it?” Blah blah blah….whine whine whine, which begs the question, how much did you donate? Anything? Here it comes from one female to another, STFU. Don’t you have a life? 43. Gunner Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 6:22 pm

Talk about turning on each other. 44. Wes P Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 6:22 pm

btw I sent $25 and I’d much rather have this site up within the next few months, than get my money back. I have no way of knowing if it’s at all likely to come up soon, but if Stephen was a real con man he’d be much slicker. 45. Roberta Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 6:26 pm

Gunner: No, really. This chick is killin’ me. Is it that serious that she has to whine on every website out there? Like it’s a crusade or something. I think if I wanted to scam people out of $10k, you wouldn’t have heard from me at all since. I’d be a ghost. Wes P: Agreed. 46. Meg Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 6:54 pm

Gosh if “Roberta” doesn’t sound exactly like Jason. And she shows up so soon after him, too, out of nowhere, just to make a point for him… Life is full of coincidences, I guess. Well, my “dead lazy ass is through “bitching” for today. I guess I’ll “STFU” for a while, at least until the next delay/excuse. 47. Roberta Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 7:02 pm

Meg, I don’t know who Jason is. That doesn’t matter. I just got tired of hearing the complaining. You didn’t answer my question, however. 48. Geoff Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 7:26 pm

Stephen, I can’t speak for all of us, but I know there are a bunch of regular readers from northern VA that are excited to see the new update. Thanks for your work on one of the leading libertarian blogs. -Geoff, LPVA 49. Barry Wray Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 8:48 pm

It’s a total fraud, shame and a farce! 50. Carl Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 8:56 pm

The Objectionablist philosophy is alive and well, I see. 51. matt Says:
December 14th, 2006 at 11:05 pm

Now that you mention it, meg, I’m also Jason. Everyone who doesn’t think SVD is a fraud is Jason. Now you can “publicly break from us” all at once in true objectivist fashion. 52. Chris Hickman Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 1:03 am

Why is it acceptable to some people for a person to accept over $10,000 to complete a project and then lie about its completion status multiple times? 53. DAP Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 1:23 am

I have no idea if this is a fraud or not, but the possibility is definetly there. However, I do know this: all the gross ineffeciency, half-truths, and passed deadlines that libertarians complain about when it applies to the government have been personified by SVD for almost a year, yet some supposed libertarians seem to make exceptions in his case. I am not angry about this; $25 is not a big deal to me. I do believe, however, that SVD should not be given a free pass.

54. Chris Monnier Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 2:21 am

I think Steven is a victim of his own ambition and naivety, so to speak. I agree with earlier commenters that for a project of an unknown magnitude (how many online communities has he built before?), periodic status updates should be given in lieu of arbitrary promise dates. I didn’t contribute any money, so I can’t speak from that perspective. But I think that, unlike Allen Hacker, Steven is a trustworthy guy that will, eventually, deliver on his promises. 55. Tom Hanna Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 4:18 am

Transfer the domain name and, let’s say half the donations, to me and I’ll have a social networking site up in a few hours. Instead of all the hand coding, try this: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=social+networking+scripts&btnG=Goo gle+Search or this: http://www.kickapps.com/ or this: http://me.com/_snapp/ or this: http://www.smallworldlabs.com/?gclid=CP26n86DlIkCFSLiYAod2BDm4g or get a Windows hosting account from GoDaddy and they’ll even set up this for you: http://communityserver.org/Default.aspx 56. Allen Hacker Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 4:57 am

Chris Monnier: “...unlike Allen Hacker, Steven is a trustworthy guy…” Hasn’t anybody ever advised you that it’s better to keep quiet and be thought ignorant that to open your [keyboard] and prove it?

You know nothing about me beyond distortion and rumor. yet here you are, shooting your mouth off in public as if you have any idea what you’re talking about. 0 57. Stephen VanDyke Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 6:24 am

Allen, The difference between you and I is that when I’ve dug myself into a hole, I don’t ask folks to keep throwing me shovels. The simple fact is that I realize when my site launches, none of these barbs, admonishments and distasteful labels will matter in the slightest since I’ll have something tangible to show for my efforts and an ongoing profitable business that benefits myself and libertarians. And unlike you, I have a thick enough skin that I will keep my temper in check and take my licks (as I deserve them). I’m afraid the bell has tolled on your political consulting career in the LP though, unless you plan to spend that extra $200K inventing a time machine. 58. Phil Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 6:29 am

...and we still don’t even know what the Liberty Mix is !! Steven has done some cool things with HoT using WordPress, so we know he’s got skills – but I doubt we’re going to see some never-been-seen-before Web 2.0 platform. Using open source technologies is ideal, but I hope we haven’t waited many months for just some WordPress or CMS hack. My guess is that it’ll be some mix of open source technologies, like WordPress’s new WPMU (WordPress Multi-User) blog mixed in with Drupel’s CMS and a forum and a bunch of plugins like a calendar for libertarian related events. I’m not sure why Steven keeps everything so secret, I reckon he thinks someone will steal his idea? And obviously if there was a public beta, we’d know all about LibertyMix even if we weren’t testers. There’s been a lot of hype for LibertyMix, and too much pre-hype can be a bad thing. Just like a hyped film, everyone expects it to be great, so they’re upset when it’s only “good”. And BTW - Why shut down HoT? Blogs run themselves, especially groupblogs like that one.

I’d love to hear some speculation from you all. 59. Phil Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 6:34 am

Stephen, I apologize for misspelling your name in the above post. 60. Tom Hanna Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 7:08 am

This “Allen Hacker” news must be really big. All I could find was that he was a self-employed carpenter who died Monday at his residence at the age of 63. 61. Stephen VanDyke Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 7:16 am

Phil: WPMU is garbage if you’ve ever looked at their table structure (8 tables per user FTW!), and Drupal is just an adaption nightmare for anything less than a simple community blog (dunno about 5.0, but 4.x was nasty and had a horrible admin). It’s completely written from scratch (with the exception of small amounts of APIs and code snippets here and there). No existing software was adaptable enough for the scope of where I want to take the site. Even after launch, I’ll continue to add new features since my goal is to eventually supplant the lack of cohesive organization in the LP. HoT’s database had to be integrated into the new system, which is why I pulled it down and moved it so I wouldn’t have to deal with sync headaches. In retrospect, this was dumb since it looks like I’m merely silencing critics. Sorry. As far as hype goes… I know it’s a little over-the-top but what else is out there for libertarians? There’s one major forum site that’s ugly, one half-baked drupal site that’s also ugly as sin (and who’s users will undoubtedly migrate over), a major magazine blog that I consider “the competition” at least for traffic and eyeballs and a smattering of blogs. 62. Stuart Richards Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 7:39 am

And with the revenue-sharing dealie for paid accounts, he’ll even be paying us to add quality content… I don’t see how this thing isn’t going to take off when it’s finally finished. But it is taking a while. I will be proud to blog on HoT when it’s back up. Until then… we must continue the fight for liberty in other venues.

63. Stephen VanDyke Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 8:00 am

Stuart: Revenue sharing is through Google Adsense, there’s no way I want to deal with the headaches of having to do monthly payouts. Here’s the breakdown: 100% Gadsden members (everyone who paid in advance) 65% Upgraded members ($4/mo) 10% Regular members (free) 64. Phil Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 8:14 am

Stephen: Show us some screenshots!! Get everyone’s mouth watered, it’ll calm the troops down. 65. Derrick Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 10:54 am

Yeah, I wanna see screenshots 66. Ian Bernard Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 11:45 am

Is mine the ugly forum? http://bbs.freetalklive.com 67. Jason Gatties Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 12:29 pm

Meg- No need to put ” ” around my name, I am infact a real person, thank you. 68. Jason Gatties » Blog Archive » The H.O.T Topic Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 12:37 pm

[...] Check out THIS THREAD @ ThirdPartyWatch.com [...] 69. Eric Dondero Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 12:39 pm

The real story here is the headline: Bob Barr jumping to the Libertarian Party. Wow! If that happens THAT’S HUGE I wish my Libertarian Party friends the best, and hope they’ll nominate him for President.

My God, Phillies and Kubby! You all can’t do any better than that??? Of course, you fucking can! Bob Barr for President/Greg Raymer for VicePresident. MAKE IT HAPPEN MY LIBERTARIAN PARTY FRIENDS. MAKE IT FUCKING HAPPEN (I promise if you do I’ll petition my ass off for the LP in 2007/2008 to get you all on the ballot in all 50. And I’m saying this as a Republican!!) Eric Dondero at www.mainstreamlibertarian.com 70. Eric Dondero Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 12:40 pm

The real story here is the headline: Bob Barr jumping to the Libertarian Party. Wow! If that happens THAT’S HUGE I wish my Libertarian Party friends the best, and hope they’ll nominate him for President. Bob Barr for President/Greg Raymer for Vice-President. MAKE IT HAPPEN MY LIBERTARIAN PARTY FRIENDS. MAKE IT FUCKING HAPPEN (I promise if you do I’ll petition my ass off for the LP in 2007/2008 to get you all on the ballot in all 50. And I’m saying this as a Republican!!) Eric Dondero at www.mainstreamlibertarian.com 71. Ian Bernard Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 12:51 pm

Bob Barr used to be an anti-Liberty republican. Now all of a sudden that he’s out of office he finds his principles? He’s got some ‘splainin’ to do. He could also help his reputation by signing the Small Government Pledge at http://centerforsmallgovernment.com . Stanhope in ‘08. 72. Chris Monnier Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 12:52 pm

Yeah, what’s the ugly forum? And what’s the drupal site? I’m guessing the “major magazine blog” is Reason’s Hit and Run? Allen, all I said is that you’re untrustworthy, which is a subjective statement that I feel to be true, and that you haven’t delivered on your promises, which is an objective statement that is, well, true. The fact is, I don’t trust you. I didn’t donate money to the Badnarik campaign in part because, upon examining your various websites, I was suspicious you might be somewhat of a Svengali. Needless to say, I’m glad I didn’t donate any money. Conversely, while I didn’t contribute any money to Liberty Mix, I sort of wish I would have (is it too late?). I can empathize with Stephen, and I’m excited to see what I’m sure will be a stunning finished product. 73. Allen Hacker Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 1:04 pm

Wow, Chris, That’s better than most of the responses I get. But you didn’t dispel the fact that you have nothing to go on for your opinion, unless it is your fear of salemen. f course, fear may feel very real, but it’s not a fact that indicates anything beyond a severe personal concern. Has it occurred to you that salemen are exactly what the movement needs? Has it occurred to you that someone might be a very effective saleman and yet be on the up-and-up? Has it occurred to you that what’s promised on my other sites is stuff I did in fact repeatedly deliver across several years to many clients? Don’t fall for the crap about me refusing to list my clients on my sites. No counselor discloses his client file. 0 74. Chris Moore Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 1:18 pm

“No counselor discloses his client file.” Consultants do. If you claim that your methods have made businesses millions, then you damn well better be able to back up that claim.

75. Chris Moore Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 1:21 pm

If I were interested in hiring VanDyke to build a website for me, then I’m sure he would provide a list of previous clients and examples of his work if requested. I wouldn’t just hope that he is what he says he is. 76. Jeremy Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 2:25 pm

Mr. Dondero, what is your source? Do you have this from Mr. Barr himself? I don’t see anything on his site about it so far. 77. Eric Sundwall Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 2:41 pm

Jeremy: Try this – http://www.libertyforall.net/?p=423 Does Liberty for All make any cut as bad/good etc. ? I personally prefer the content over South Park references . . . 78. Stephen VanDyke Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 4:05 pm

Ian: Yours is not the ugly forum. The one I’m referring to has been around since 2000 (and not likely updated since then). It’s slowly dying on its own due to the rise of blogs and newer community forums, but still big. 79. matt Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 4:15 pm

wendy mcelroy’s site? 80. Mike N. Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 4:31 pm

Hasn’t anybody ever advised you that it’s better to keep quiet and be thought ignorant that to open your [keyboard] and prove it? “Any day, I can start a new business and make a million dollars in a year.”—Allen Hacker “Ultimately, it’s about the future of freedom in our world for the next ten thousand years.”—Allen Hacker

“Face it. You guys have taken a wrong turn, and I’m your mentor toward getting back on track. I know you don’t like it, but you appointed me and I am trilled at the prospect of helping you find your way, one way or another.” —Allen Hacker 81. Mike N. Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 4:34 pm

Has it occurred to you that salemen are exactly what the movement needs? A well developed marketing plan is far different from a sleazy used car salesman. Has it occurred to you that what’s promised on my other sites is stuff I did in fact repeatedly deliver across several years to many clients? Wasn’t Badnarik a client? 82. Allen Hacker Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 7:47 pm

Listen… Did anybody hear some Mike-Neslon sorta noise? 0 83. Allen Hacker Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 7:59 pm

Chris Moore, When one is known as both a consultant and a counselor, business clients will usually ask for a non-disclosure that includes privacy. They rightly fear that guys like the HoT/TPW crowd would try to make one thing out of another and embarrass them. Of course, you may simply dismiss that, since you know more about it than I do, you having done all the same things I have, been all the same places I have, right? Or, Not? BTW, not always millions. Coupla time, billions. Once in a single afternoon. Dismiss that, too, if you like. After all, it is an assertion not offerred with solid facts, and not made thusly by Mike Nelson. 0

84. Jay Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 8:09 pm

Allen Hacker A little stuck on yourself, are ya? Look in the mirror. You might have a narcissistic streak. 85. Stuart Richards Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 8:38 pm

Listen… Did anybody hear some Mike-Neslon sorta noise? LA LA LA I NO U R BUT WHUT M I Seriously. You’re acting all of two years old. Anytime Mike Nelson is the most mature person in an argument, I get a little scared for the future of humanity. Anyway, yeah, it’s Adsense but it’s still awesome. You can bet I’ll be redoubling my blogging efforts once that comes down the pipe. 86. Allen Hacker Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 9:23 pm

Suart, Seriously. Mike Nelso is just noise, and you discount him in your own post. Anyway, there’s no way a two-year-old could have half as much fun tweaking the half-wittedness that too often passes for expertise here. Sometime you guys are good, sometimes you’re not. You all jumped on the wrong side of this one, and now, apparently, you can’t simply abandon the error, you just have to keep going at it. Which is the only thing that makes you eminently tweakable, and allows me to keep this thing going forever if I want to. 0 87. matt Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 9:33 pm

I wish I could make billions in an afternoon.

88. Roberta Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 9:37 pm

If I could make millions, even in one afternoon, I’d sure help out the guy I buried. 89. Mike N. Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 10:19 pm

You can bet I’ll be redoubling my blogging efforts once that comes down the pipe. Lord help us. 90. Mike N. Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 10:20 pm

and allows me to keep this thing going forever if I want to. Please do. This is very entertaining for me. 91. Mike N. Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 10:35 pm

“I don’t need your money personally. Any day, I can start a new business and make a million dollars in a year. I’ve done it twice, will do it again as soon as I’ve shed the shackles of this campaign.” — Allen Hacker 92. Mike N. Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 11:02 pm

It is a little strange that someone who supposedly is a millionaire whines about “living in shared-housing poverty for the last 15 months” in his plea for $200k to write some bogus report. 93. Allen Hacker Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 11:04 pm

Matt, Yeah, wouldn’t it have been cool if I got that money? But I didn’t say I made the money, I solved a problem and the client reorganized and made the money over the next ten years. The shareholders made out well. 0 94. Allen Hacker Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 11:08 pm

Roberta, Of course that’s what you should do—if you were actually the one who buried him. On the other hand, what if the burying was nothing more than the fitful imaginings of accusers using nothing more to justify their accusations than their own self-distrust? Would you go ahead and take the rap just because they wouldn’t let up? No? Not even if over time people who weren’t even around came along and mindlessly joined the chorus? Still No? Then welcome to integrity. 0 95. Allen Hacker Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 11:22 pm

Guys, Pay close attention as your hero Mike “Benedict Arnold” Nelson continues to distort reality. You can learn a lot about how to look like an idiot. Worthless noise, and for nothing more than sport and self-congratulation, you enable him. Aviod the inevitable embarrassment: repudiate him and the error of joining his deception before it’s too late. Mike N. Says: December 15th, 2006 at 11:02 pm “It is a little strange that someone who supposedly is a millionaire whines about “living in shared-housing poverty for the last 15 months” in his plea for $200k to write some bogus report.” So I ask, who supposes I’m a millionaire? Who benefits by ignoring the fact that I’m not asking for the $150K that would be owed me if we did raise the entire amount, ignoring that I said right in the fundraiser that I didn’t expect to see it. What makes the report bogus? Mike “B.A.” Nelson’s say-so? Is he still trying to pre-empt his exposure?

And why has it been some 3 days since I sent out the followup email confirming that the FEC will allow me to convert my time to volunteerism so it doesn’t go against the debt, thus making the debt only the $65K I actually asked for in the original email—and no one’s posted it here or mentioned it? Or even factored it in? Who benefits by these omissions? And why do none of you question how it serves someone to do craft such an obviously insufficient “case” against someone? As I keep saying, you few have no idea how bad you look. Fortunately, your number is dwindling as the brighter among you begin to realize the folly of this exercise. 0 96. Mike N. Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 11:37 pm

Allen, Did you just say “Mike Nelso is just noise”? 97. Mike N. Says:
December 15th, 2006 at 11:42 pm

So I ask, who supposes I’m a millionaire? Umm, you did when you said: I don’t need your money personally. Any day, I can start a new business and make a million dollars in a year. I’ve done it twice, will do it again as soon as I’ve shed the shackles of this campaign. If you have made a least a million dollars twice, I would assume you are a millionaire… unless, of course, you managed the money in the same manner as you managed Badnarik’s campaign. In which case, you may very well be broke. 98. Stuart Richards Says:
December 16th, 2006 at 1:50 am

And why has it been some 3 days since I sent out the followup email confirming that the FEC will allow me to convert my time to volunteerism so it doesn’t go against the debt, thus making the debt only the $65K I actually asked for in the original email—and no one’s posted it here or mentioned it? Or even factored it in?

Maybe because none of us were too fucking stupid to fork over $10 for the “privilege” of seeing you e-fellate yourself in future emails, so we didn’t know about it? 99. Chris Moore Says:
December 16th, 2006 at 9:29 am

Allen, I’ve done consulting work for two companies that make devices related to my research. For both, I may have saved them about $2 million, however if I make some generous assumptions I can claim to have made them $1 billion over ten year. This would be quite a stretch, but I can make that claim, too. The first company called my research group because they knew that we knew what we were talking about from our published work. The second company called because they learned about the work we did with the first. I can also claim that my work could very well lead to making Sony tens of billions of dollars. Do you know why the Playstation 3 is so expensive? I do. And I know how to go about making it cheaper. My work could lead to cementing Sony’s Blu-Ray disc technology as THE next generation of DVD technology, among other things. You’re welcome to visit my site and find my CV. My publications on this research are all listed there. Unlike your “research”, mine is published in top-tier peerreviewed journals and relies on actual quantum physics principles rather than bullshit, new-age chaos theory quantum of your own making. I’m not saying I know more than you, or even as much. I’m saying that I don’t know you, and from what I can gather I think you are full of shit. You may think my claims are full of shit, too. The difference is I don’t care because I’m not asking you for money or respect. 100.buuycialis Says:
December 16th, 2006 at 1:52 pm

Buy [URL= http://mtsu32.mtsu.edu:11263/_disc2/00000193.htm#cialis]soma[/URL] online http://mtsu32.mtsu.edu:11263/_disc2/00000194.htm#levitra 101.Allen Hacker Says:
December 16th, 2006 at 4:35 pm

Chris, It’s nice to know there are some successful people areound here.

What’s not so nice is to see that you feel tall about ridiculing perspectives other than your own. None of what you cited, impressive though it may be, qualifies you to judge things in areas where you are not the expert. That’s the biggest problem among smart people, you know. They don’t know how to learn (Chris Argyris, Harvard Business Review, May-June 1991, pp 99-109), and they erroneously assume that talent in one area makes them a genius in every area (James Suroweicki, The Wisdom of Crowds, p. 32). I would never assume that my occasional hard-disk swapping and php programming make my computer technical prowess equal to yours. Or that my personal-counseling acumen qualifies me as a computer scientist. Likewise, I don’t recognize your top-level expertise in physics as a qualification to judge or even understand phycheology or metaphysics. In fact, I would expect it to be a bar to your ever having even looked into such things, given the evidence of your joining the herd-mentality that pervades the hard sciences toward the soft side. In fact, I would extrapolate that your disdain for the metaphysical, coupled with your ridicule of my religion, each obviously founded only upon the tiny glimpses, that you have a far slimmer chance than I at empathyzing with and aiding people in their lives, and thus, you have less chance of understanding voters, politics and campaigns. Not just you, but most all of the techies here. That’s frightening if you reaslize the truth of what I’m saying, because given the extremely high percentage of techies among libertarians, it becomes obvious why we can’t get along. Hard-science guys are trained from an early age to ridicule soft-side guys. Yet the same is true in the opposite: generally the people who grow up in the so called Humanities are coached to pretend to superior understanding. I recognize that many people make the ffort to cross that gulf. I know I have. If you have tried, you need to keep trying, becaise it doesn’t show up as any kind of social tolerance around here. 0 102.Doug Craig Says:
December 16th, 2006 at 5:30 pm

Where is Badnarik? What dont he answer some of these questions? Who are the people that are owed? Can we call and verify? Who owns the RV. How did Badnarik pay his rent during the campaign?Did he work during the campaign? If

not how did he pay his normal bills? From my understanding his net worth was very low going into the campaign.Allen I am not hammering you but this would be a lot easrier with more info.I am afraid this will make it harder on people trying to raise money in the future. 103.Allen Hacker Says:
December 16th, 2006 at 5:59 pm

Hi Doug, Those are all valid questions, and they will be answered in due time. There is no problem, there will be no lingering negative effect on fundraising, and all is not lost. You’re just seeing a bunch of worry go by, it’s natural with some people. Unfortunately some of those people think they own other people and try to make rules in the dark to which they then try to hold other people’s performance. This is commonly known in civilized circles as “bad behavior”. That’s all this argument is about, not whether or not I’ll answer the questions. I’ve been repeatedly ignored and misrepresented every time I’ve said I would, just because I won’t do it on antagonistic people’s terms. They pissed in the well, now they want to complain that it’s poisoned. Then you come along, and maybe you think what they’re asking for is reasonable, but you missed the part where they disqualified themselves from asking by demanding instead. The funny part is, most of them are like you, people who weren’t part of the original fracas but who have joined into trying to shout me into conformity without them doing anything to clean up the environment. It’s just making everyone crazy that I blow my spare time here tweaking them instead of becoming their obedient servant and surrender that time to them by writing the report before the campaign committee is even closed. It’s cool, though—it gives me a chance to show people what it looks like when a real libertarian stands up to social coercion. You’ll see, the answers will come, truth will reign, and the world will be a bright shiny place wherein there will be far less pretense of greatness and far more mutual respect and cooperation. It’s just growing pains (a little late), that’s all. Bear with us.

0 104.Stephen VanDyke Says:
December 16th, 2006 at 6:09 pm

Allen: You have a serious case of diarrhea of the mouth. 105.Mike N. Says:
December 16th, 2006 at 8:03 pm

The guy has seriously lost his mind. 106.DAP Says:
December 16th, 2006 at 8:27 pm

Allen Hacker, get a real job and get off the internet. 107.Chris Moore Says:
December 16th, 2006 at 10:05 pm

“None of what you cited, impressive though it may be, qualifies you to judge things in areas where you are not the expert.” That is part of my point. I claim only to be an expert in what I can demonstratively show expertise in. I would consider Stephen VanDyke an expert in web design because he has demonstrated a mastery of it. You claim you are an expert in … well … something, yet you demonstrate nothing. “... with your ridicule of my religion” I did not “ridicule” your religion. I said it was kooky, based off of what little I have seen. In the same sentence, I also said many would consider my religion kooky, and besides, your religion is irrelevant to the topic of the Badnarik campaign and your handling of it. Once again, YOU twist reality. I was the first to point out that your religion had no bearing on the actual topic. Once again, I stick up for you on a particular point, and then you claim otherwise. “Hard-science guys are trained from an early age to ridicule soft-side guys.” I don’t know what the hell you are talking about. Being a scientist in no way precludes me from being religious, and it certainly doesn’t prevent me from having a healthy respect for literature, philosophy, and your other so-called “softside” subjects. All I have done is call bullshit on your claims that you are some sort of “expert” at making companies millions. I also call bullshit on your claim that you have

ANY real high-level management and leadership expertise. The reason I do so is because you keep making such claims without providing ANY evidence for those claims. 108.Ian Bernard Says:
December 16th, 2006 at 11:17 pm

Don’t worry, Chris. Hack-job will explain all “in due time”. We’re all waiting, Allen. Where did that $400,000 go? Perhaps if you were to reveal, you might get some more contributions. That is, if it was spent somewhat intelligently. If it wasn’t, then revealing the info will hurt your contributions. Which may explain why you have not done so. 109.Chris Hickman Says:
December 17th, 2006 at 2:23 am

SVD, You’ve yet to provide the promised public beta, or even screen shots as some have asked for. When will you provide these, or why won’t you? 110.GreginOz Says:
December 17th, 2006 at 10:06 pm

Actually, this is funnier than the old site! Waddapakowankers. Oh, and ‘e-fellate’, Mike? Priceless. 111.undercover_anarchist Says:
December 18th, 2006 at 1:26 pm

MEG FOR LP PRESIDENTIAL NOMINATION 2008 112.matt Says:
December 18th, 2006 at 2:36 pm

undercover_anarchist and meg are the same person! don’t believe the hype! it’s all a fraud, I tell you! 113.Timothy West Says:
December 18th, 2006 at 7:41 pm

damn I cant believe this is still going on. 114.Equal Opportunity Cynic Says:
December 19th, 2006 at 2:16 am

Chris Bowers wrote an intriguing article today on accountability and political blogging on his Democratic/liberal site MyDD: How Bloggers Are Held Accountable. If you can look past the ideological differences, there’s a lot of thought-provoking material there. The implications here should be obvious. Everyone’s cursing the darkness of a content provider who isn’t meeting their expectations, but no one’s lighting a candle by providing an alternative, or exploring alternatives that are out there. (There are alternatives I’ve mentioned elsewhere but I don’t wish to be perceived as a shill for them; I’m just a schmo who wants to see a good free Libertarian community I can start getting my hands dirty.) Jeez, if liberal Democrats can get understand that the free market brings accountability, why do libertarians seem so foreign to the idea? Those who “donated” to vaporware may feel a certain amount of vendor lockin, but the rest of us have no reason to wait for one provider. Conversely, if Stephen van Dyke can build a better mousetrap and avoid his odious and risible trash talk, I’ll be one of thousands encouraging you to use the service he provides. 115.kcjerith Says:
December 19th, 2006 at 2:26 am

Hey, SVD, don’t feel bad, you are not the only one with release date problems, http://www.antimusic.com/news/06/dec/1801.shtml I mean if axel can’t get a album out, then nothing is for sure But really, I think it would be fair to release a screen shot or some more specfic info, I mean people have donated cash. I should add that I have not donated a dam thing, so I can’t bitch to much (though I want my HoT!). Until then there is what? hit and run? good, but no HoT, http://www.reason.com/blog and there Last free voice, http://lastfreevoice.wordpress.com/ which is very cool, but not enough people to get good discussions going. Yes, i am sure everyone knows these last two sites, but just in case. 116.kcjerith Says:
December 19th, 2006 at 2:30 am

And yes I am late on this part, mainstream libertaranism?a good way to destroy the values of the party, but yet make no politcal progress, because you know, the only thing holding us back is the fact that we don’t look enough like the other parties. 117.Equal Opportunity Cynic Says:
December 19th, 2006 at 3:05 am

kcjerith, OK, I can’t help it, I’m a shill. Does http://libertyforamerica.net/ look like what you’re looking for? It’s not very populated at present though. 118.Deja Vu? Says:
December 19th, 2006 at 3:05 am

http://www.coolparty.us/index.php/in/2005/on/02/15/democrat-and-republicangeeks-beware/ From Stephen VanDyke (a libertarian dude who knows more about internet politics than everyone at National LP HQ put together — not that that’s saying much, unfortunately): Actually, PushLiberty.org will launch publicly shortly (when it’s done). It’s a hybrid between Google News and Blogdex, but with only libertarian blogs. It should pay for itself with Google adsense and be a low maintenance site with big return. There is a headline box for activism as well that works similar to the other topics so don’t fret about that. The site is meant to be an enabler, not a pure activism site… it will make sense when I launch (and all the Republican and Democrat geeks will wail and gnash their teeth in envy). This entry was posted on Tuesday, February 15th, 2005 119.kcjerith Says:
December 19th, 2006 at 3:14 am

EOC, thanks for the link, I have bookmarked it and will check it out. I just have a feeling I am going to have to be patient with HoT 120.Chuck Moulton Says:
December 19th, 2006 at 8:50 am

It’s interesting that these two threads are entangled.

There are people criticizing Allen Hacker instead of stepping up and running campaigns themselves the way they say it should be done. There are people criticizing Stephen VanDyke instead of stepping up and programming websites themselves the way they say it should be done. I certainly would have done several things differently from both these people, but I have great respect for doers and I’d like to see more people step up and take action instead of criticizing while doing nothing productive themselves. 121.Dan Says:
December 19th, 2006 at 9:50 am

Chuck, people donated large sums of money both to Hack and Vandam. That is not productive in your view? 122.Mike N. Says:
December 19th, 2006 at 10:53 am

and there Last free voice BARF! 123.Chris Moore Says:
December 19th, 2006 at 11:29 am

Chuck, I donated money for LibertyMix and I donated even more to the Badnarik campaign. I’m glad to see that that is not considered doing or being productive, so that the next time a libertarian campaign or cause comes calling for my dollars, I can say: “Hey, you’re a bunch of doers and I’m not. You don’t need my money since it wouldn’t be productive anyway. Just ‘do’ some more.” I’m not upset with SVD since I would have given him $25 anyway just for HoT and the other things he has already done. But Allen keeps making claims about how he’s made companies billions, how he has a special talent for running campaigns, and how he is my “mentor”. I’m not upset that I donated money to the campaign, or that the campaign did poorly. I’m upset that Allen has the balls to continue to claim that he’s some great guru when he OBVIOUSLY is not. 124.Jay Says:
December 19th, 2006 at 11:45 am

Allen “Hackjob” is no different than the rest of the jackasses running campaigns whether it be for Republicans or Democrats. Way to go, asshole. You are destroying the credibility of the entire libertarian movement.

Show me the money. What did you do with it, you self-proclaimed multimillionaire money whore. 125.Chris Hickman Says:
December 19th, 2006 at 12:02 pm

“There are people criticizing Stephen VanDyke instead of stepping up and programming websites themselves the way they say it should be done.” So if I’m not able to code my own website, that makes me ineligible to criticize the way someone else is doing it when I gave them money to do so? Sorry, but you’re wrong. Even if you weren’t wrong, the fact remains that this site is approaching a full year overdue. You’ve obviously never worked in an environment where you have authority over something that requires you to spend money to have professional specialists complete part of the task for you. Bottom line is that when you ask for money and you get it, you need to produce what was promised, when it was promised. It’s missed release dates not once, not twice, but SIX times (see Meg’s post above). We still don’t know WHY it’s delayed like this because he won’t answer. Anyone interested in pursuing class action litigation? 126.Mike N. Says:
December 19th, 2006 at 12:12 pm

Anyone interested in pursuing class action litigation? I’d rather he keep the $50 I sent for LibertyMix. I spend more than that on food each day. 127.Mike N. Says:
December 19th, 2006 at 12:12 pm

Oops, forgot to close tag. 128.Chris Moore Says:
December 19th, 2006 at 12:44 pm

Litigation? Over $25! Even if you win you would be in the hole a couple of thousand dollars after the lawyers get their cut. 129.Steve Says:
December 19th, 2006 at 3:04 pm

Good grief, you guys are ridiculous. Before finding thread, I was irritated as hell at checking the HoT site every day for several weeks and wondering if it had gone dead. However, this whiny garbage has been enough to convert me into a SVDdefender. “Class action litigation”, over a handful of people coughing up twenty-five bucks? SVD being in “contract breach” over “professional software services”, for missing his self-imposed deadlines to update a blog? WTF?!? Are you kidding me? Get a life! If SVD is reading this, I’ve been offline for a few months and missed whatever “fundraiser” was held… but I’d be happy to kick in $25 now just out of spite at this nonsense! Where Van Dyke screwed up was in taking down the old WordPress site before the newer version was ready to take its place. He should have left the old version running until the very last minute. If some data got lost during the transition, who really cares? It’s just a current events blog, not the Library of Congress where everything must stay archived forever. However, what’s done is done… and the fact that no other libertarian blog has really stepped up to fill HoT’s absence says it all. Sure, some HoT bloggers are apparently biding their time over on that Last Free Voice thing… but it’s a boorish rant-site full of typos and bad grammar, like something a high-school student would put on MySpace. The lack of comments or even hits shows that the free market has decided that Van Dyke brings something to the table, and it would rather wait on him for now. Having said all that, I do disagree with Chuck Moulton’s logic that one cannot question anything unless one is engaged in doing that same thing themselves. I’ve never planned a war in Iraq, but I still have opinions on the subject. By the way, but I just went to visit your website, Chuck. You’re a high-level official in a political party… SMILE when you’re getting your picture taken for Pete’s sake! Also, and it’s nothing personal here, but having the main page consist simply of the vote totals by which you beat your opponents doesn’t come across well. 130.Equal Opportunity Cynic Says:
December 19th, 2006 at 4:57 pm

I’d be happy to kick in $25 now just out of spite at this nonsense! Good to see the Invisible Hand at work. Don’t deliver and make money doing it. What a deal! (I’m obviously misguided to bust my arse trying to keep nonlibertarian clients happy instead of selling snake oil to libertarians who’ll pay me for air just to spite other libertarians. Wonder if there’s still room to get on that gravy train?) Hopefully the rest of the “clientele” is a bit more demanding. If not, we may have a fascinating case study in market failure.

131.Wes P Says:
December 19th, 2006 at 5:13 pm

SVD provided a “screenshot” of Libertymix on HoT months ago, but it should be obvious now, as I said then, that any “screenshot” is vaporware, easily codeable with a little static html. A screenshot is to an interactive website as a three-frame cartoon is to an immersive virtual reality. Don’t waste your time and his, asking for screenshots. 132.Josh Says:
December 19th, 2006 at 8:14 pm

I couldn’t thank you enough for the extra traffic you brought in when I commented in Devil’s Advocate position on Perverted Justice. But that’s of course not the only reason I read and love your site! Please be back soon, and keep us posted!! 133.Meg Says:
December 19th, 2006 at 9:47 pm

What is PushLiberty.org? Here is a screenshot of LibertyMix.com, from way back in May. 134.Meg Says:
December 19th, 2006 at 9:51 pm

In case that link doesn’t work, it came from here: Link In case that link also doesn’t work, here is another one. First Look at LibertyMix.com 135.GreginOz Says:
December 20th, 2006 at 1:47 am

Bah! Fergit hit! let’s talk about Kelo Vs anyone who owns land! http://www.ij.org/private_property/didden/12_18_06pr.html 136.Deja Vu? Says:
December 20th, 2006 at 2:30 am

Meg: re: PushLiberty http://web.archive.org/web/20050306033817/http://hammeroftruth.com/ “Our Path is Clear, and Our Obstacles… Insignificant email this post Categories: Politics, Culture, Blogging The LNC has given every indication that we, the small “L” libertarian blogging community, will remain marginalized and will only be patronized in order to try and appease us. To paraphrase a proverb: if we can’t go to the LP, we’ll make the LP come to us. Here’s the plan: I will be working with a small group of people over the next month (Stephen Gordon included of course) to develop and test a collaborative libertarian website along the lines of what we would have liked to do for the LP (minus specific state applications). This will be a multi-user and multi-poster website much like DailyKos, MyDD and RedState, only it will feature the libertarian community. We will use this site to raise the overall libertarian profile and awareness, promote libertarian candidates and campaigns that are well run and can win, and to act as a “hive” that can sting our opponents with the barbs of opposition research and negative exposure and reward our allies with the honey of contributions and praise. Anyone will be able to sign up and start their own journal, or integrate an existing blog into the site via RSS or permanent migration and redirection (I will eventually be migrating Hammer of Truth into the new site permanently). While there will of course be issues that we still have not tackled, we hope to create a central meeting place for libertarians in order to harness the numbers we do have and grow the potential numbers at our horizon. This will begin the jumping point for the masses of libertarianism to grow as a political voice, regardless of whether our own stuffy relic of a political party wants to let control be wrenched from its hands or not. Sadly, there is one thing they should have realized: they never had a choice. If you have exceptional skills in PHP, MySQL, HTML/CSS or graphic design, we can always use an extra hand (we had about 14 people working on the Badnarik Web Team at some point or another). Drop a comment here and I’ll respond to the email address used. UPDATE: Stephen Gordon has this good news (we’ve been busy tonight): “I’d like to announce that we have a national PAC, to be directed by George Phillies, at our disposal for bank deposit, reporting and money distribution purposes.”

UPDATE: The PushLiberty Web Team has been established, we are hitting the ground running. posted on Feb 18, 2005 at 8:13 pm by Stephen VanDyke # | Comments/Trackbacks (12) ” 137.Meg Says:
December 20th, 2006 at 4:36 am

Wow, PushLiberty.org sounds really awesome. It will make a good companion to Libertymix and Hammer of Truth. I’d like to hear more about that national PAC. 138.Steve Says:
December 20th, 2006 at 9:48 am

The National Committee put control of one of its checkbooks into the hands of an active Presidential candidate? That’s… interesting. 139.undercover_anarchist Says:
December 20th, 2006 at 12:48 pm

A threat of litigation is about as absurd as Allen Wacker’s threat to sue HoT for defamation of whatever. BUT.. Just to clarify, class action suits are precisely for instances in which the amounts involved are low (i.e. $25). Otherwise, the ultimate Allen Hacker scheme would be to found a company (or religion) and defraud a lot of people out of a little money each. They couldn’t sue because it would be a no-win situation for them. If the class is large enough, the class can absorb the cost for just a few dollars (or less) each, and hopefully recover the majority of their claims. If anything, people should work on seeing how they can get Hack-job into jail. 140.Meg Says:
December 20th, 2006 at 3:26 pm

I don’t want to sue anyone. I don’t even want my money back. I just want Libertymix, or, barring that, some good explanations why it’s nearly a year late. Can’t wait to see the site. The screenshots from back in May were good; given that the developers have had 7 months to work on and improve the site since then, it should be excellent when/if it is released. 141.Mikie Vee Says:
December 21st, 2006 at 1:36 pm

To make light of this matter-I know this has been said before-in brevity and for entertainment… I was sitting around wondering why ‘us’ Libertarians never get anything like this completed in the political arena. I deduced that we’re too busy actually contributing to the market machinery that we neglect delving into the seemingly fruitless battle of modern politics. Or we’re too busy watching pr0n, doings drugs, and shooting off our M2 Browning? 142.Equal Opportunity Cynic Says:
December 21st, 2006 at 2:05 pm

Probably all of the above. The part that just mystifies me is the “vendor lockin”. You’d think that libertarians’ belief in the free market would predispose them to look for better mousetraps, instead of the opposite. My only reasons for disliking van Dyke are: 1. Just this, my sense of propriety that if you fail to deliver the market should extract a price 2. His utter arrogance in gloating about his ability to deliver several months late, how his vaporware is far cooler than an existing site, etc. That’s all. I have no financial interest in this market and, if those two issues were addressed, I’d be happy to support whoever offers the best solution. I just find it really ironic that so many self-imagined free-marketeers are so emotionally connected to one vendor. 143.titaniumgirl Says:
December 21st, 2006 at 7:43 pm

If anyone is interested in a libertarian-friendly community website – I’m working on libertymove.org and you can sign up now and post info and stories related to the liberty movement. It’s a great tool for getting people together and organizing events or meetups. Please check it out – www.libertymove.org 144.Bryan Says:
December 21st, 2006 at 9:08 pm

Equally Opportunity Cynic—-

Markets are driven by individuals and people are not always rational. The fact that people would have an irrational attachment to some guys promises should not be at all surprising to anyone with a cursory understanding of economics. It simply plays into the subjective theory of value. Only a handful of people are doing anything similar to the guy and none on the level that HOT was doing back in the day. If you really want the market to punish him for being so slow the best way to do that is to beat him to the punch. 145.James Says:
December 22nd, 2006 at 5:58 pm

You know, being late is one thing. Take the estimate on any software project and add a zero tends to be a good rule of thumb. But why take down HoT in preparation for the launch of something that wasn’t even done? Oh well, everyone’s first time as a lead dev is a learning experience. But I just pulled HoT from first off my list of regular blogs and tossed it into the folder of places to check every few months. For future reference, you shouldn’t kill your primary center of marketing in the final months prior to a major release. You care, the donors here care, most of the rest of us are steadily wandering off to other places. 146.DAP Says:
December 22nd, 2006 at 7:20 pm

“But why take down HoT in preparation for the launch of something that wasn’t even done?” Because he wanted to silence the people who were complaining about the delays. Even before he took down HoT, he ended all commenting on topics related to LibertyMix. 147.Erik Says:
December 22nd, 2006 at 8:33 pm

While not the same as HoT or what Liberty Mix is/was supposed to be I have just launched Liberty Ledger a Digg style meta blog. Everyone should feel free to check it out and use it and abuse it. 148.Erik Says:
December 22nd, 2006 at 8:35 pm

Heh cant get my on URL right its http://libertyledger.NET 149.Chris Hickman Says:
December 23rd, 2006 at 5:41 am

8 1/2 days without posting here and just about 10 days since the “sorry it’s not done” message on the website was updated. Still no “public beta”. Any new members of the “I feel ripped off” fanclub yet? Here’s the recap for those who haven’t been keeping track (thanks Megan): A Brief History of LibertyMix.com Delays: Release Date: 2/06 (beta for donors) Excuse: ? Release Date: 4/15/06 Excuse: Greeks are always late for things Release Date: 6/6/06 Excuse: “accidently overwritten the portion of the code for nesting comments and hierarchical article display” Release Date: 10/28/06 Excuse: “It’s done, but I’m not pulling back the curtain just yet.” (In other words, I just don’t want to.) Release Date: 11/07 Excuse: ? Release Date: 12/14/06 Excuse: It’s just not done yet (?)———————————————————I’m not sure how one could not feel ripped off by this situation since election day, but maybe I’m too cynical. At the very least, he was caught in a boldfaced lie – if it was “done” as of 10/28, then there should have been no barrier to release on election day! He’s yet to explain that one away, leaving us instead with another release date and tearful apology for missing THAT one, the latter of the two referenced. SVD, where’s liberty mix? Where’s the explanation for the election day debate? You assert that we shouldn’t compare you to Allen Hacker, but at least his scam is somewhat obfuscated (maybe he’s just a smarter crook than you; his amount of “allegedly” pilfered funds totals over 10 times yours). We want accountability, answers, and results! 150.Chris Hickman Says:
December 25th, 2006 at 4:08 pm

Wow, it’d be great if HOT/libertymix was around to talk about this: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15587326/

Too bad Stephen Van Dyke is a shyster. I’m sure he’s having a wonderful Christmas right now with the $12,000 in free money he stole from libertarians, through the aid of Badnarik. Maybe he’s gone and joined the Church of Allen Hacker too. 151.Erik Says:
December 26th, 2006 at 12:16 am

Chris I’ve put that story into the upcomming section of the Liberty Ledger feel free to comment on the story there and vote on it. 152.Tom Hanna Says:
December 27th, 2006 at 4:30 am

Wonder if we should read anything into the fact that the “announcement” on HOT and LibertyMix no longer points to this discussion. 153.Chris Hickman Says:
December 27th, 2006 at 6:17 am

Call me a negative nancy, but I don’t see a positive way to spin it. Check that – there’s been an “update”. Yay !! wink

Just another attempt by Stephen Van Allen Hacker to obscure the truth, methinks. 154.Meg Says:
December 27th, 2006 at 3:55 pm

Wonder if we should read anything into the fact that the “announcement” on HOT and LibertyMix no longer points to this discussion. Sure we should. On HoT, before it went down, there would be occasional “I’m sorry, it’s delayed again” post. When too many people asked questions about it in the comments section, the commenting on those threads was turned off. Eventually, people just began asking their questions on other, non-Libertymix threads. So, the whole site was shut down. Now, the link to a simple DISCUSSION about the topic has been removed. Not surprising. Heck, at least it’s an update of some kind, right?

Here is a discussion on the topic that will not be deleted or removed. 155.Equal Opportunity Cynic Says:
December 28th, 2006 at 3:22 am

Well, maybe I’m naive about how important presentation is to people in terms of gaining “mindshare”, but I still don’t see why LibertyForAmerica.net has failed to gain any traction whatsoever among the conversations above about how “no one” is building a libertarian community site. I mean, yes, the site looks like shit. And yes, as far as I know, the owner realizes this and plans to correct it. On the other hand, you have phased releases so that, if you post on the site that looks like shit, your post will still be there at some future date when the site looks rather better. Instead people would rather have the promise of a really kick-ass site by someone who’s successfully produced really nice-looking sites in the past, but whose understanding of phased releases is zero. In other words, it’s all or nothing— maybe one day we’ll get a really kick-ass looking site with lots of functionality, but until then we get, “Sorry for the delay”. I know which I prefer, but apparently the market disagrees with me. (I also have some problems with the original site design Stephen proposed—i.e. that only “national correspondents” could post on “national issues”—but perhaps that’s fallen by the wayside. If not, people are going to be sorely disappointed with ‘Mix even when if it does come out.) 156.Meg Says:
January 1st, 2007 at 6:13 am

Well, it’s 2007, and no LibertyMix.com. Anyone hoping for a New Year’s Surprise is gonna be disappointed. 157.Amused Observer Says:
January 2nd, 2007 at 8:03 am

It’s kind of funny that Van Dyke is taking all the heat for this and everybody seems to be ignoring Stephen Gordon’s role in the fiasco. Gordon and Van Dyke launched the project jointly, but Gordon is the one who did all the fundraising and phone calling. It’s a pity to have that sort of person on the LP staff. 158.Meg Says:
January 2nd, 2007 at 3:06 pm

I think most people have given up on Gordon.

At least we hear from SVD every once in a while. Sure, it’s usually once a month or so, and then just to offer a lame excuse as to why it’s delayed again, but at least that’s SOMETHING. Gordon seems to have washed his hands of the whole deal once he got the LP job. I guess he thinks he’s too good for us now. 159.Wes P Says:
January 2nd, 2007 at 4:51 pm

Equal Opportunity Cynic Says: December 28th, 2006 at 3:22 am ... I still don’t see why LibertyForAmerica.net has failed to gain any traction whatsoever … It’s not just the technical virtues of the website and attitude of its owner that matter. People want to chat where there are lots of other interesting people that chat. So it’s a chicken and egg problem. There aren’t many posts there yet, but if you and I and several other people get busy, it will suddenly look a lot more interesting than it does now, and more people will join, etc., etc. fwiw I just went and created a free account there. The slight effort (about one minute) and psychological commitment involved are a bit of a hurdle, but trust me —no pain yet. Now let’s see if and when I’m actually moved to post anything, and what… It LOOKS like anybody with an account can “create content”, which I guess means putting up a post that others can comment on. That might make it more popular, but perhaps also more intimidating in a way. 160.Chris Hickman Says:
January 3rd, 2007 at 3:22 am

That’s the big thing…I don’t want to have to register for another site. Here and with the old HOT, I just put my name in and post. That’s my viewpoint on the issue. 161.Amused Observer Says:
January 4th, 2007 at 8:21 pm

I’m confused. Megan says Badnarik does not know about LibertyMix.com. Does that mean that the two Stephens used his name without his permission when they sent out the letter at: http://web.archive.org/web/20060111104945/http://hammeroftruth.com/libertyventure/

162.Meg Says:
January 4th, 2007 at 11:17 pm

That must be what it means. I’ve searched for like 15 minutes for the specific comments from Badnarik, to the effect that “I’ve never heard of Libertymix”. But it was on HammerOfTruth.com, which has been taken down, so the comment is gone as well. I can’t find it on Google. 163.Amused Observer Says:
January 11th, 2007 at 6:55 am

If anybody really has issues, they should probably send comments to the LNC about how an LP staff member (prior to joining the staff) was involved in this deal, which, even if it wasn’t a scam, draws into question his reliability. It is appropriate to mention that the staff member’s prior actions reflect negatively on the LP and may impact it’s ability to raise funds. 164.Meg Says:
January 11th, 2007 at 3:33 pm

You’re right, Observer – I think I’ll do that. I guess we should be grateful. If these comments were made on Hammer of Truth, the commenting on that thread would have been turned off, and the site shut down to prevent further questions. 165.SMiles Says:
January 30th, 2007 at 10:59 am

Wow, so I guess LibertyMix.com is dead – or rather was stillborn? Never breathed … and HammerOfTruth along with it … I hope LM ressurrects and HoT is reborn. Good luck to it’s creators and investors. sMiles 166.Abi Says:
February 3rd, 2007 at 8:55 am

Awesome, man

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February 12th, 2007 at 9:19 am

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April 9th, 2007 at 8:38 am

Good site 172.Meg Says:
May 3rd, 2007 at 2:34 pm

Wow, it’s been about 5 months since this piece was written, and not only is LibertyMix.com nowhere to be found, we’ve also received NO word on it from Gordon or Van Dyke. If you needed any further evidence they are scammers, this is definately it. I’m interested in taking further action on this matter. If anyone else is interested, please leave a message here.

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