LibertyMix Documents

Third Party Watch
The Return of HoT? The Launch of LibertyMix?

What’s that you say?
So maybe finally, after a long awaited period of time… could it be? Maybe Hammer of
Truth is back and LibertyMix is finally launched?
I get a little clock counting down to 7:00 AM Eastern Time…
Now I’ve never jumped in this fight because I didn’t invest any money and to be honest
aren’t really sure what this “LibertyMix” thing is… but Hammer of Truth was a web site
I checked several times daily, and frankly, I’ve missed it…
Will the critics be silenced? Will it be a flop?
Apparently we’ll see at 7:00 AM.
This entry was posted on Thursday, December 14th, 2006 at 4:41 am and is filed under News, Random.
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172 Responses to “The Return of HoT? The Launch of LibertyMix?”
1. Austin Cassidy Says:

December 14th, 2006 at 7:48 am
Interesting… only 13 minutes left to go. This feels like New Year’s Eve!

And the announcement….

—————————————————-
Fans of liberty,
I’m sure by now, most of you are all like “WTF?” about HoT and LibertyMix
being on constant delay, but rest assured I am working my ass off getting the bugs
fixed (I’m a perfectionist, which is detrimental to deadlines) in order to launch
what I expect will be the biggest libertarian community site on the Internet.
I know it’s been a little quiet in this corner of the web since I took HoT offline for
the transition and I’m sorry about that. I miss having things up just as much if not
much more than all of you (there’s a certain $200K I’d love to be blogging about,
ya know?).
I know there’s a pretty damn good lesson here about self-imposed deadlines and
keeping everyone in the loop – rest assured that’s not lost on me.
I promise that the next announcement you will hear from me in the coming days
will be the directions to the signup page
Thanks for your patience,

Stephen VanDyke
3. Michael Hampton Says:

Perfection is stupid. Not to mention impossible.
Release early and often, bugs or no bugs.
4. Chris Hickman Says:

http://conversate.org/conversation/3HWI8 is the “clearinghouse” for discussion

on this issue.
Came here from the link posted after this:
“Fans of liberty,
I’m sure by now, most of you are all like “WTF?” about HoT and LibertyMix
being on constant delay, but rest assured I am working my ass off getting the bugs
fixed (I’m a perfectionist, which is detrimental to deadlines) in order to launch
what I expect will be the biggest libertarian community site on the Internet.
I know it’s been a little quiet in this corner of the web since I took HoT offline for
the transition and I’m sorry about that. I miss having things up just as much if not
much more than all of you (there’s a certain $200K I’d love to be blogging about,
ya know?).
I know there’s a pretty damn good lesson here about self-imposed deadlines and
keeping everyone in the loop – rest assured that’s not lost on me.
I promise that the next announcement you will hear from me in the coming days
will be the directions to the signup page
Thanks for your patience,

Stephen VanDyke”
Self-imposed deadlines? Try lies – We were told it was DONE and ready to go for
election Tuesday! Why would you miss that 5-month late deadline and THEN put
up a launch timer if it STILL wasn’t ready? You’d have to be a complete moron,
just as we (the donors) all were for supporting vaporware in the first place.
As I posted in the other place, I actually got up early to see this. Well sorta. I’m
going back to bed now. I don’t suppose anyone is going to respond to my e-mails
(as usual) so I’ll have to go back to posting at the lp.org blog. I suggest you all do
the same as it is the only real way that anyone is going to pay attention to this…
hit ‘em at home.

Also, whatever happened to the PUBLIC beta that was promised? Why does it
have to be “perfect” for the “founding subscribers” to TEST? A public beta was
promised almost a year ago and never provided. That would be the quickest way
to work out any bugs – test it out with an understanding member base. It’s things
like that which convince me even more strongly that SVD is a bs con artist and
this “project” is never going to happen. Having Badnarik stump for donations for
you and then have him be a part of a 6-figure campaign financing scandal doesn’t
help either.
6. Stephen VanDyke Says:

Chris Hickman: I readily admit I should not have set deadlines I was unable to
meet. Be realist though and understand that I’m just one person building an
immense website that I myself am more than eager to launch.

I paid $25 into this little scheme, too, and I’m STILL waiting to see one line of
code.
Oh well, if it happens, it happens.
In the meantime, if you’re really jonesing for some libertarian stuff to read, there’s
always Homeland Stupidity. Written by one of the (former? future?) HoT
bloggers, yours truly.
Hey, SVD, ignore all these conversation threads and go back to fixing bugs!

Look dude, I don’t have shit to do with Hacker’s mess with Badnarik’s campaign
finance, so you need to back the fuck up with that nonsense. I refuse to be lumped
in with that fraudster which is ALL THE MORE FUCKING REASON I’M
CODING MY ASS OFF RIGHT NOW!
Jesus, you guys can be ruthless some times.

Looking forward to seeing the new site, SVD. Stuff happens and things get
pushed back, it’s just how life goes.
11. Barry Wray Says:

This delay kinda adds new meaning to Harry Browne’s favorite catch phrase
—“Government Doesn’t Work”.
12. mrjarrell Says:

yawn Colour me unsurprised. Yet another delay and more excuses? Par for the
course on this matter. Maybe it’ll be up by spring….
13. Eric Sundwall Says:

Ouch. There is nothing worse than an expectation that can’t be met when
everything else is perfectly lined up. I use ‘Bloglines’ to get all my stuff and this
little line my shed some light on the difficulties he’s facing; ” This is a temporary
placeholder for the RSS. FeedBurner was whining. Please disregard.”
Unfortunately getting $25 bucks from erstwhile libertarians may not have been
such a good idea. It’s much easier to give assurances to one big investor/client and
keep them in the loop. But, a little humility sprinkled on a big old humble pie will
help SVD in the long run. It’ll happen, nothing is going on this time of year
anyway . . . relax. An old boss used to say ” It’s not like we have an astronaut out
there waiting to die”.
14. Meg Says:
I must say that I am SHOCKED by this totally unforseen turn of events.
Actually, we were told in November that the site was already done. So, Van Dyke
was lying then, or he’s lying now.
15. HippyChimp Says:

Steven, looking forward to visiting HoT again. Coding usually takes longer than
initially expected, I personally would have taken a page out of John Carmack’s
book and said “It’ll be done when it’s done” and left it at that. That being said,
clients like to see progress. I didn’t come across HoT until after people donated
their $25, but I do deal with clients and coding projects daily. A beta site would
probably keep the hounds at bay…
Anyway, good luck and I can’t wait to see the new site.
16. mariannna Says:

Hi all!
p
G’night
17. Nick Wilson Says:

I think the humility in his latest message is at least more promising than the
“critics will eat their words” of his last update. I still hope that everyone eats their
words – the graphics DO look pretty damn professional, at least.
But yeah, Stephen, nobody loses by you releasing the beta – it’s not like people
don’t expect there to be bugs in a beta, so really, launching the beta will help
soothe your perfectionism by letting everyone rapidly find the program glitches
instead of you having to find them all yourself slowly. And you will be forgiven if
there’s some glitches – people just want to see a product. I know the delays only
up the ante of everyone’s expectations, but just give us something.
18. Nick Wilson Says:

Steven – misspelled. Sorry.

19. Ian Bernard Says:
SVD: At least you finally communicated to us. A little bit of that goes a long way.
Considering the delays and total lack of information from you at this point, I
nearly expected the timer to reset this morning.
20. Meg Says:

I think I’ve figured it out. That timer wasn’t a countdown to the release of
Libertymix or HoT, but a countdown to the latest excuse (in a long list of them.)
21. Chuck Moulton Says:

December 14th, 2006 at 12:23 pm
Patience is a virtue.
22. Stuart Richards Says:

I miss HoT. I’m very happy to be on TPW and to have my own blog kinda sorta
going, but I miss HoT.
23. Meg Says:

Patience is a virtue? Well, we’ve been “virtuous” for about 11 months, and now
we want what was promised.
Hey, know some other virtues? Honesty. Integrity. Doing what you say you’re
gonna do, when you say you’re gonna do it. Let’s see some more of that up in
here.
24. Deived Says:

I did get excited when I saw the counter yesterday, but jeez guys.
Here’s a guy (Stephen) trying to put together something for you guys, and all you
want is NOW NOW NOW!
I can understand the frustration from those who contributed, but for those that
havent… calm the f*&$ down!
I miss HoT just as much as the next guy, but to sit here and spew crap and spit on
Stephen for not getting it done when he said he would, doesn’t seem to make a
whole lot of sense to me. If you really want something put up, go here –
http://wordpress.org/ – or here – http://www.joomla.org/ – for some tools to do it
yourself, and lets see if you can put together your own HoT.
Yeah, I should add that the disappearance of HoT is the primary motivation for
the existence of Last Free Voice. So far it’s got me, Michelle Shinghal, and it’ll
soon have Paulie Cannoli too. If you’ve got some experience with blogging or at
least with being intelligently opinionated, we’d love for you to come join our
staff.
26. matt Says:

I liked the old HoT, and if the new one’s better, then it’s totally worth the wait. Of
course, this is the perspective of someone with no money sunk into the project.
27. SMiles Says:

For Jah’s sake … release the dang thing! This is ridiculous!
I wasn’t even that big of a fan of HoT until the lady blogger got pissy about the
911 issue.
But I like social networking sites and the world needs a good Libertarian one
ASAP!
Please please please, forget about perfection and release your product!! Fix it as
bugs come up.
I’ve got no money sunk into this LibertyMix thang but … JEEZ, move
FORWARD NOW.
SMiles
28. DAP Says:

SVD sucks at life.
29. Jim Phelps Says:

sux
30. megan Says:

If you really want something put up, go here – http://wordpress.org/ – or here –
http://www.joomla.org/ – for some tools to do it yourself, and lets see if you can
put together your own HoT.
That’s good advice, and some have started to do that… But that’s not the point.
We’re not complaining JUST because HoT has gone down.
We’re complaining because we were sold a bill of goods to the tune of over
$10,000 which has yet to materialize. We’re complaining because we’ve received
NOTHING in return for almost a year, but excuses, delays, and derision (yes, they
even made fun of people for asking what was going on.)
And I’m worried about the consistancy of the excuses, as well. I mean, we were
told like 6 months ago that the site was done, but SVD “didn’t back up” his info
and it got deleted! Then, we were told that it wasn’t done. Then we were told
(again) that it WAS done, and would be released election day. Now, we’re told it’s
NOT done (again.)
And we were told it was being made from scratch. Later, we were told it was
being made from Wordpress, a freely available blogging software. Then, we were
told that Michael Badnarik was endorsing LibertyMix. But later, Badnarik said he
had no idea what it was, and had never heard of it!
Delays, obfuscations, lies, deceit, and mockery and scorn of those who simply
want the truth (as well as what they paid $10,000 for). Not a good way to further
the movement.
31. megan Says:

A Brief History of LibertyMix.com Delays:
Release Date: 2/06 (beta for donors)

Excuse: ?
Release Date: 4/15/06

Excuse: Greeks are always late for things

Excuse: “accidently overwritten the portion of the code for nesting comments and
hierarchical article display”

Excuse: “It’s done, but I’m not pulling back the curtain just yet.” (In other words,
I just don’t want to.)
Release Date: 11/07
Excuse: ?

Excuse: It’s just not done yet (?)
I think there are a few more, but since HoT is down, I can’t search for them.
32. torah Says:

It could be worse, LibertyMix could have collected $411,000 from you folks and
received 4% of the vote in a Congressional race.
When it hits the Net, it’ll be beautiful. Worth the wait.
BTW, could someone point out – or post the link – the original blog posting by
Mike Nelson that got L. Ron Hacker all upset? I want to see what all was being
reported…
33. Derrick Says:

Steven, I suggest that the best tact would be to say “it’ll be launched when it’s
ready” and just keep people updated on the progress, so they know you’re still
working on it. I don’t think people are cheesed so much because they’re in a hurry
for you to launch the sites, but because their hopes keep getting raised and then
dropped.
If I were a paid supporter (which I’m not) I would much rather see something like
this:
“12/14 – Hey guys, i’m still working on this. Finished moderation code, and am
now working on RSS feeds.”
...than this:
“12/14 – I promise that the next announcement you will hear from me in the
coming days will be the directions to the signup page”
Just keep people posted on what’s happening, and 96% of them will be cool with
you.
34. Jason Gatties Says:

Maybe Megan you should get off your dead lazy ass and create
TheRealLibertyMix.com or something. Anything would be better than reading
you whine about this constantly.
My wife is a web designer and she does custom coding and I know for a fact that
sometimes….shit happens. Coding is very touchy.
So stop bitching. If it comes out, it comes out. If it don’t, ask for your “donation”
back or create your own site. Just stop crying about the shit already.
35. Mike N. Says:

BTW, could someone point out – or post the link – the original blog posting by
Mike Nelson that got L. Ron Hacker all upset? I want to see what all was being
reported…
There is a handy little search feature on this site:
http://thirdpartywatch.com/index.php?s=hacker
36. Meg Says:

“Jason”, you know nothing about me. If you did, you’d not call me lazy; in fact I
detest sloth in all forms.
I have every right to complain, and you’re not gonna bully me out of it. I notice
that out of all those around the web who’ve expressed displeasure at this fiasco,
you honed in on and singled out the lone female voice to curse at and attack.
Make you feel tough, does it?
And neither you nor any others who deride me answer me on the merits, just “you
complain too much”. Get a life. If you think I am wrong, debate me on the issue.
But I think facts and logic aren’t your style. You just don’t like uppity women.
37. Meg Says:

Oh, and if you don’t like my “bitching”, do the libertarian thing and don’t read it.
38. Mike N. Says:

LOL! This Meg chick is cool.

39. matt Says:
“SVD sucks at life.”
No, no, no.
If Mr. Van Dyke wanted to walk off with your money he would have done it
quietly and left everyone in the dark. Apparently he hasn’t done that. Thieves suck
at life, and so do losers, that’s about it. SVD must not be too much of a loser,
either, since he’s able to articulate a business plan that draws $10,000 in
investment. I’m a little frustrated too, but let’s not focus our hostility on some guy
who’s ostensibly trying to make things better.
40. Mike N. Says:

matt is right. SVD has done a lot more good than harm (if any) to the Libertarian
cause.
It is not like he took 31% of the donations and is now begging for $200k more to
write some bogus report on why he is a failure.
I do believe you will actually see a return on your investment, sooner or later.
41. Wes P Says:

By now we should all be clear that Stephen bit off more than he could chew (on
schedule) when he signed up for this, and wishes like hell that he’d handled it
better.
I wish that he’d architected it such that he could release it in coherent phases
before it was all done and working, but apparently he didn’t and bitching won’t
change that.
Stephen, given that we’ve all been disappointed by broken promises many times,
there’s no point in making further optimistic predictions of when you’ll be really
really ready.
Just please keep us in the loop every day or so. You don’t have to give us a
technical analysis of the situation, but a few sentences about your work each day
would be reassuring.
42. Roberta Says:

Meg:
“I have every right to complain, and you’re not gonna bully me out of it. I notice
that out of all those around the web who’ve expressed displeasure at this fiasco,
you honed in on and singled out the lone female voice to curse at and attack.
Make you feel tough, does it?”
Blah blah blah….whine whine whine, which begs the question, how much did
you donate? Anything? Here it comes from one female to another, STFU. Don’t
you have a life?
43. Gunner Says:

Talk about turning on each other.
44. Wes P Says:

btw I sent $25 and I’d much rather have this site up within the next few months,
than get my money back. I have no way of knowing if it’s at all likely to come up
soon, but if Stephen was a real con man he’d be much slicker.
45. Roberta Says:

Gunner:
No, really. This chick is killin’ me. Is it that serious that she has to whine on every
website out there? Like it’s a crusade or something.
I think if I wanted to scam people out of $10k, you wouldn’t have heard from me
at all since. I’d be a ghost.
Wes P:
Agreed.
46. Meg Says:

Gosh if “Roberta” doesn’t sound exactly like Jason. And she shows up so soon
after him, too, out of nowhere, just to make a point for him…
Life is full of coincidences, I guess. Well, my “dead lazy ass is through “bitching”
for today. I guess I’ll “STFU” for a while, at least until the next delay/excuse.
47. Roberta Says:

Meg,
I don’t know who Jason is. That doesn’t matter. I just got tired of hearing the
complaining. You didn’t answer my question, however.
48. Geoff Says:

Stephen,
I can’t speak for all of us, but I know there are a bunch of regular readers from
northern VA that are excited to see the new update. Thanks for your work on one
of the leading libertarian blogs.
-Geoff, LPVA
49. Barry Wray Says:

It’s a total fraud, shame and a farce!
50. Carl Says:

The Objectionablist philosophy is alive and well, I see.
51. matt Says:

Now that you mention it, meg, I’m also Jason. Everyone who doesn’t think SVD
is a fraud is Jason. Now you can “publicly break from us” all at once in true
objectivist fashion.

Why is it acceptable to some people for a person to accept over $10,000 to

complete a project and then lie about its completion status multiple times?
53. DAP Says:

I have no idea if this is a fraud or not, but the possibility is definetly there.
However, I do know this: all the gross ineffeciency, half-truths, and passed
deadlines that libertarians complain about when it applies to the government have
been personified by SVD for almost a year, yet some supposed libertarians seem
to make exceptions in his case. I am not angry about this; $25 is not a big deal to
me. I do believe, however, that SVD should not be given a free pass.
54. Chris Monnier Says:
I think Steven is a victim of his own ambition and naivety, so to speak. I agree
with earlier commenters that for a project of an unknown magnitude (how many
online communities has he built before?), periodic status updates should be given
in lieu of arbitrary promise dates.
I didn’t contribute any money, so I can’t speak from that perspective. But I think
that, unlike Allen Hacker, Steven is a trustworthy guy that will, eventually, deliver
on his promises.
55. Tom Hanna Says:

Transfer the domain name and, let’s say half the donations, to me and I’ll have a
social networking site up in a few hours. Instead of all the hand coding, try this:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=social+networking+scripts&btnG=Goo
gle+Search
or this:
http://www.kickapps.com/
or this:
http://me.com/_snapp/
or this:
http://www.smallworldlabs.com/?gclid=CP26n86DlIkCFSLiYAod2BDm4g
or get a Windows hosting account from GoDaddy and they’ll even set up this for
you:
http://communityserver.org/Default.aspx
56. Allen Hacker Says:

Chris Monnier:
“...unlike Allen Hacker, Steven is a trustworthy guy…”
Hasn’t anybody ever advised you that it’s better to keep quiet and be thought
ignorant that to open your [keyboard] and prove it?
You know nothing about me beyond distortion and rumor. yet here you are,
shooting your mouth off in public as if you have any idea what you’re talking
about.

Allen,
The difference between you and I is that when I’ve dug myself into a hole, I don’t
ask folks to keep throwing me shovels.
The simple fact is that I realize when my site launches, none of these barbs,
admonishments and distasteful labels will matter in the slightest since I’ll have
something tangible to show for my efforts and an ongoing profitable business that
benefits myself and libertarians. And unlike you, I have a thick enough skin that I
will keep my temper in check and take my licks (as I deserve them).
I’m afraid the bell has tolled on your political consulting career in the LP though,
unless you plan to spend that extra $200K inventing a time machine.
58. Phil Says:

...and we still don’t even know what the Liberty Mix is !!
Steven has done some cool things with HoT using WordPress, so we know he’s
got skills – but I doubt we’re going to see some never-been-seen-before Web 2.0
platform. Using open source technologies is ideal, but I hope we haven’t waited
many months for just some WordPress or CMS hack.
My guess is that it’ll be some mix of open source technologies, like WordPress’s
new WPMU (WordPress Multi-User) blog mixed in with Drupel’s CMS and a
forum and a bunch of plugins like a calendar for libertarian related events.
I’m not sure why Steven keeps everything so secret, I reckon he thinks someone
will steal his idea? And obviously if there was a public beta, we’d know all about
LibertyMix even if we weren’t testers.
There’s been a lot of hype for LibertyMix, and too much pre-hype can be a bad
thing. Just like a hyped film, everyone expects it to be great, so they’re upset
when it’s only “good”.
And BTW - Why shut down HoT? Blogs run themselves, especially groupblogs
like that one.
I’d love to hear some speculation from you all.
59. Phil Says:

Stephen, I apologize for misspelling your name in the above post.
60. Tom Hanna Says:

This “Allen Hacker” news must be really big. All I could find was that he was a
self-employed carpenter who died Monday at his residence at the age of 63.

Phil: WPMU is garbage if you’ve ever looked at their table structure (8 tables per
user FTW!), and Drupal is just an adaption nightmare for anything less than a
simple community blog (dunno about 5.0, but 4.x was nasty and had a horrible
admin).
It’s completely written from scratch (with the exception of small amounts of APIs
and code snippets here and there). No existing software was adaptable enough for
the scope of where I want to take the site. Even after launch, I’ll continue to add
new features since my goal is to eventually supplant the lack of cohesive
organization in the LP.
HoT’s database had to be integrated into the new system, which is why I pulled it
down and moved it so I wouldn’t have to deal with sync headaches. In retrospect,
this was dumb since it looks like I’m merely silencing critics. Sorry.
As far as hype goes… I know it’s a little over-the-top but what else is out there for
libertarians? There’s one major forum site that’s ugly, one half-baked drupal site
that’s also ugly as sin (and who’s users will undoubtedly migrate over), a major
magazine blog that I consider “the competition” at least for traffic and eyeballs
and a smattering of blogs.

And with the revenue-sharing dealie for paid accounts, he’ll even be paying us to
add quality content… I don’t see how this thing isn’t going to take off when it’s
finally finished. But it is taking a while.
I will be proud to blog on HoT when it’s back up. Until then… we must continue
the fight for liberty in other venues.
Stuart: Revenue sharing is through Google Adsense, there’s no way I want to

deal with the headaches of having to do monthly payouts. Here’s the breakdown:
100% Gadsden members (everyone who paid in advance)

65% Upgraded members ($4/mo)
10% Regular members (free)
64. Phil Says:

Stephen: Show us some screenshots!! Get everyone’s mouth watered, it’ll calm
the troops down.
65. Derrick Says:

Yeah, I wanna see screenshots

Is mine the ugly forum?
http://bbs.freetalklive.com
67. Jason Gatties Says:

Meg- No need to put ” ” around my name, I am infact a real person, thank you.
68. Jason Gatties » Blog Archive » The H.O.T Topic Says:

[...] Check out THIS THREAD @ ThirdPartyWatch.com [...]
69. Eric Dondero Says:

The real story here is the headline: Bob Barr jumping to the Libertarian Party.
Wow! If that happens THAT’S HUGE I wish my Libertarian Party friends

the best, and hope they’ll nominate him for President.
My God, Phillies and Kubby! You all can’t do any better than that???
Of course, you fucking can! Bob Barr for President/Greg Raymer for Vice-
President.
MAKE IT HAPPEN MY LIBERTARIAN PARTY FRIENDS. MAKE IT
FUCKING HAPPEN
(I promise if you do I’ll petition my ass off for the LP in 2007/2008 to get you all
on the ballot in all 50. And I’m saying this as a Republican!!)
Eric Dondero at www.mainstreamlibertarian.com
70. Eric Dondero Says:

The real story here is the headline: Bob Barr jumping to the Libertarian Party.
Wow! If that happens THAT’S HUGE I wish my Libertarian Party friends

the best, and hope they’ll nominate him for President.
Bob Barr for President/Greg Raymer for Vice-President.
MAKE IT HAPPEN MY LIBERTARIAN PARTY FRIENDS. MAKE IT
FUCKING HAPPEN
(I promise if you do I’ll petition my ass off for the LP in 2007/2008 to get you all
on the ballot in all 50. And I’m saying this as a Republican!!)
Eric Dondero at www.mainstreamlibertarian.com

Bob Barr used to be an anti-Liberty republican. Now all of a sudden that he’s out
of office he finds his principles?
He’s got some ‘splainin’ to do. He could also help his reputation by signing the
Small Government Pledge at http://centerforsmallgovernment.com .
Stanhope in ‘08.
72. Chris Monnier Says:

Yeah, what’s the ugly forum? And what’s the drupal site? I’m guessing the “major
magazine blog” is Reason’s Hit and Run?
Allen, all I said is that you’re untrustworthy, which is a subjective statement that I
feel to be true, and that you haven’t delivered on your promises, which is an
objective statement that is, well, true.
The fact is, I don’t trust you. I didn’t donate money to the Badnarik campaign in
part because, upon examining your various websites, I was suspicious you might
be somewhat of a Svengali. Needless to say, I’m glad I didn’t donate any money.
Conversely, while I didn’t contribute any money to Liberty Mix, I sort of wish I
would have (is it too late?). I can empathize with Stephen, and I’m excited to see
what I’m sure will be a stunning finished product.

Wow, Chris,
That’s better than most of the responses I get.
But you didn’t dispel the fact that you have nothing to go on for your opinion,
unless it is your fear of salemen. f course, fear may feel very real, but it’s not a
fact that indicates anything beyond a severe personal concern.
Has it occurred to you that salemen are exactly what the movement needs? Has it
occurred to you that someone might be a very effective saleman and yet be on the
up-and-up?
Has it occurred to you that what’s promised on my other sites is stuff I did in fact
repeatedly deliver across several years to many clients?
Don’t fall for the crap about me refusing to list my clients on my sites. No
counselor discloses his client file.
74. Chris Moore Says:

“No counselor discloses his client file.”
Consultants do.
If you claim that your methods have made businesses millions, then you damn
well better be able to back up that claim.
If I were interested in hiring VanDyke to build a website for me, then I’m sure he
would provide a list of previous clients and examples of his work if requested.
I wouldn’t just hope that he is what he says he is.
76. Jeremy Says:

Mr. Dondero, what is your source? Do you have this from Mr. Barr himself? I
don’t see anything on his site about it so far.
77. Eric Sundwall Says:

Jeremy: Try this – http://www.libertyforall.net/?p=423
Does Liberty for All make any cut as bad/good etc. ?

I personally prefer the content over South Park references . . .

Ian: Yours is not the ugly forum. The one I’m referring to has been around since
2000 (and not likely updated since then). It’s slowly dying on its own due to the
rise of blogs and newer community forums, but still big.
79. matt Says:

wendy mcelroy’s site?
80. Mike N. Says:

Hasn’t anybody ever advised you that it’s better to keep quiet and be thought
ignorant that to open your [keyboard] and prove it?
“Any day, I can start a new business and make a million dollars in a year.”—Allen
Hacker
“Ultimately, it’s about the future of freedom in our world for the next ten
thousand years.”—Allen Hacker
“Face it. You guys have taken a wrong turn, and I’m your mentor toward getting
back on track. I know you don’t like it, but you appointed me and I am trilled at
the prospect of helping you find your way, one way or another.” —Allen Hacker
81. Mike N. Says:

Has it occurred to you that salemen are exactly what the movement needs?
A well developed marketing plan is far different from a sleazy used car salesman.
Has it occurred to you that what’s promised on my other sites is stuff I did in fact
repeatedly deliver across several years to many clients?
Wasn’t Badnarik a client?

Listen…
Did anybody hear some Mike-Neslon sorta noise?

Chris Moore,
When one is known as both a consultant and a counselor, business clients will
usually ask for a non-disclosure that includes privacy. They rightly fear that guys
like the HoT/TPW crowd would try to make one thing out of another and
embarrass them.
Of course, you may simply dismiss that, since you know more about it than I do,
you having done all the same things I have, been all the same places I have, right?
Or, Not?
BTW, not always millions. Coupla time, billions. Once in a single afternoon.
Dismiss that, too, if you like. After all, it is an assertion not offerred with solid
facts, and not made thusly by Mike Nelson.
0
84. Jay Says:
Allen Hacker
A little stuck on yourself, are ya? Look in the mirror. You might have a
narcissistic streak.

Listen…
Did anybody hear some Mike-Neslon sorta noise?
LA LA LA I NO U R BUT WHUT M I
Seriously. You’re acting all of two years old. Anytime Mike Nelson is the most
mature person in an argument, I get a little scared for the future of humanity.
Anyway, yeah, it’s Adsense but it’s still awesome. You can bet I’ll be redoubling
my blogging efforts once that comes down the pipe.

Suart,
Seriously. Mike Nelso is just noise, and you discount him in your own post.
Anyway, there’s no way a two-year-old could have half as much fun tweaking the
half-wittedness that too often passes for expertise here.
Sometime you guys are good, sometimes you’re not. You all jumped on the wrong
side of this one, and now, apparently, you can’t simply abandon the error, you just
have to keep going at it.
Which is the only thing that makes you eminently tweakable, and allows me to
keep this thing going forever if I want to.
87. matt Says:

I wish I could make billions in an afternoon.

88. Roberta Says:
If I could make millions, even in one afternoon, I’d sure help out the guy I buried.
89. Mike N. Says:

You can bet I’ll be redoubling my blogging efforts once that comes down the
pipe.
Lord help us.
90. Mike N. Says:

and allows me to keep this thing going forever if I want to.
Please do. This is very entertaining for me.
91. Mike N. Says:

“I don’t need your money personally. Any day, I can start a new business and
make a million dollars in a year. I’ve done it twice, will do it again as soon as I’ve
shed the shackles of this campaign.” — Allen Hacker
92. Mike N. Says:

It is a little strange that someone who supposedly is a millionaire whines about

“living in shared-housing poverty for the last 15 months” in his plea for $200k to
write some bogus report.

Matt,
Yeah, wouldn’t it have been cool if I got that money? But I didn’t say I made the
money, I solved a problem and the client reorganized and made the money over
the next ten years. The shareholders made out well.

Roberta,
Of course that’s what you should do—if you were actually the one who buried
him. On the other hand, what if the burying was nothing more than the fitful
imaginings of accusers using nothing more to justify their accusations than their
own self-distrust?
Would you go ahead and take the rap just because they wouldn’t let up?
No? Not even if over time people who weren’t even around came along and
mindlessly joined the chorus?
Still No? Then welcome to integrity.

Guys,
Pay close attention as your hero Mike “Benedict Arnold” Nelson continues to
distort reality.
You can learn a lot about how to look like an idiot.
Worthless noise, and for nothing more than sport and self-congratulation, you
enable him.
Aviod the inevitable embarrassment: repudiate him and the error of joining his
deception before it’s too late.
Mike N. Says:
“It is a little strange that someone who supposedly is a millionaire whines about
“living in shared-housing poverty for the last 15 months” in his plea for $200k to
write some bogus report.”
So I ask, who supposes I’m a millionaire? Who benefits by ignoring the fact that
I’m not asking for the $150K that would be owed me if we did raise the entire
amount, ignoring that I said right in the fundraiser that I didn’t expect to see it.
What makes the report bogus? Mike “B.A.” Nelson’s say-so? Is he still trying to
pre-empt his exposure?
And why has it been some 3 days since I sent out the followup email confirming
that the FEC will allow me to convert my time to volunteerism so it doesn’t go
against the debt, thus making the debt only the $65K I actually asked for in the
original email—and no one’s posted it here or mentioned it? Or even factored it
in?
Who benefits by these omissions? And why do none of you question how it serves
someone to do craft such an obviously insufficient “case” against someone?
As I keep saying, you few have no idea how bad you look. Fortunately, your
number is dwindling as the brighter among you begin to realize the folly of this
exercise.
96. Mike N. Says:

Allen,
Did you just say “Mike Nelso is just noise”?
97. Mike N. Says:

So I ask, who supposes I’m a millionaire?
Umm, you did when you said:
I don’t need your money personally. Any day, I can start a new business and make
a million dollars in a year. I’ve done it twice, will do it again as soon as I’ve shed
the shackles of this campaign.
If you have made a least a million dollars twice, I would assume you are a
millionaire… unless, of course, you managed the money in the same manner as
you managed Badnarik’s campaign. In which case, you may very well be broke.

And why has it been some 3 days since I sent out the followup email confirming
that the FEC will allow me to convert my time to volunteerism so it doesn’t go
against the debt, thus making the debt only the $65K I actually asked for in the
original email—and no one’s posted it here or mentioned it? Or even factored it
in?
Maybe because none of us were too fucking stupid to fork over $10 for the
“privilege” of seeing you e-fellate yourself in future emails, so we didn’t know
about it?

Allen, I’ve done consulting work for two companies that make devices related to
my research. For both, I may have saved them about $2 million, however if I
make some generous assumptions I can claim to have made them $1 billion over
ten year. This would be quite a stretch, but I can make that claim, too. The first
company called my research group because they knew that we knew what we
were talking about from our published work. The second company called because
they learned about the work we did with the first.
I can also claim that my work could very well lead to making Sony tens of
billions of dollars. Do you know why the Playstation 3 is so expensive? I do. And
I know how to go about making it cheaper. My work could lead to cementing
Sony’s Blu-Ray disc technology as THE next generation of DVD technology,
among other things.
You’re welcome to visit my site and find my CV. My publications on this research
are all listed there. Unlike your “research”, mine is published in top-tier peer-
reviewed journals and relies on actual quantum physics principles rather than
bullshit, new-age chaos theory quantum of your own making.
I’m not saying I know more than you, or even as much. I’m saying that I don’t
know you, and from what I can gather I think you are full of shit. You may think
my claims are full of shit, too. The difference is I don’t care because I’m not
asking you for money or respect.
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101.Allen Hacker Says:

Chris,
It’s nice to know there are some successful people areound here.
What’s not so nice is to see that you feel tall about ridiculing perspectives other
than your own.
None of what you cited, impressive though it may be, qualifies you to judge
things in areas where you are not the expert.
That’s the biggest problem among smart people, you know. They don’t know how
to learn (Chris Argyris, Harvard Business Review, May-June 1991, pp 99-109),
and they erroneously assume that talent in one area makes them a genius in every
area (James Suroweicki, The Wisdom of Crowds, p. 32).
I would never assume that my occasional hard-disk swapping and php

programming make my computer technical prowess equal to yours. Or that my
personal-counseling acumen qualifies me as a computer scientist.
Likewise, I don’t recognize your top-level expertise in physics as a qualification

to judge or even understand phycheology or metaphysics. In fact, I would expect
it to be a bar to your ever having even looked into such things, given the evidence
of your joining the herd-mentality that pervades the hard sciences toward the soft
side.
In fact, I would extrapolate that your disdain for the metaphysical, coupled with
your ridicule of my religion, each obviously founded only upon the tiny glimpses,
that you have a far slimmer chance than I at empathyzing with and aiding people
in their lives, and thus, you have less chance of understanding voters, politics and
campaigns.
Not just you, but most all of the techies here. That’s frightening if you reaslize the
truth of what I’m saying, because given the extremely high percentage of techies
among libertarians, it becomes obvious why we can’t get along. Hard-science
guys are trained from an early age to ridicule soft-side guys. Yet the same is true
in the opposite: generally the people who grow up in the so called Humanities are
coached to pretend to superior understanding.
I recognize that many people make the ffort to cross that gulf. I know I have. If
you have tried, you need to keep trying, becaise it doesn’t show up as any kind of
social tolerance around here.
102.Doug Craig Says:

Where is Badnarik? What dont he answer some of these questions? Who are the
people that are owed? Can we call and verify? Who owns the RV. How did
Badnarik pay his rent during the campaign?Did he work during the campaign? If
not how did he pay his normal bills? From my understanding his net worth was
very low going into the campaign.Allen I am not hammering you but this would
be a lot easrier with more info.I am afraid this will make it harder on people
trying to raise money in the future.
103.Allen Hacker Says:

Hi Doug,
Those are all valid questions, and they will be answered in due time. There is no
problem, there will be no lingering negative effect on fundraising, and all is not
lost.
You’re just seeing a bunch of worry go by, it’s natural with some people.
Unfortunately some of those people think they own other people and try to make
rules in the dark to which they then try to hold other people’s performance. This is
commonly known in civilized circles as “bad behavior”.
That’s all this argument is about, not whether or not I’ll answer the questions. I’ve
been repeatedly ignored and misrepresented every time I’ve said I would, just
because I won’t do it on antagonistic people’s terms.
They pissed in the well, now they want to complain that it’s poisoned.
Then you come along, and maybe you think what they’re asking for is reasonable,
but you missed the part where they disqualified themselves from asking by
demanding instead.
The funny part is, most of them are like you, people who weren’t part of the
original fracas but who have joined into trying to shout me into conformity
without them doing anything to clean up the environment.
It’s just making everyone crazy that I blow my spare time here tweaking them
instead of becoming their obedient servant and surrender that time to them by
writing the report before the campaign committee is even closed.
It’s cool, though—it gives me a chance to show people what it looks like when a
real libertarian stands up to social coercion.
You’ll see, the answers will come, truth will reign, and the world will be a bright
shiny place wherein there will be far less pretense of greatness and far more
mutual respect and cooperation.
It’s just growing pains (a little late), that’s all. Bear with us.
0
104.Stephen VanDyke Says:

Allen: You have a serious case of diarrhea of the mouth.
105.Mike N. Says:
The guy has seriously lost his mind.
106.DAP Says:
Allen Hacker, get a real job and get off the internet.
107.Chris Moore Says:

“None of what you cited, impressive though it may be, qualifies you to judge
things in areas where you are not the expert.”
That is part of my point. I claim only to be an expert in what I can

demonstratively show expertise in. I would consider Stephen VanDyke an expert
in web design because he has demonstrated a mastery of it. You claim you are an
expert in … well … something, yet you demonstrate nothing.
“... with your ridicule of my religion”
I did not “ridicule” your religion. I said it was kooky, based off of what little I
have seen. In the same sentence, I also said many would consider my religion
kooky, and besides, your religion is irrelevant to the topic of the Badnarik
campaign and your handling of it. Once again, YOU twist reality. I was the first to
point out that your religion had no bearing on the actual topic.
Once again, I stick up for you on a particular point, and then you claim otherwise.
“Hard-science guys are trained from an early age to ridicule soft-side guys.”
I don’t know what the hell you are talking about. Being a scientist in no way
precludes me from being religious, and it certainly doesn’t prevent me from
having a healthy respect for literature, philosophy, and your other so-called “soft-
side” subjects.
All I have done is call bullshit on your claims that you are some sort of “expert”
at making companies millions. I also call bullshit on your claim that you have
ANY real high-level management and leadership expertise. The reason I do so is
because you keep making such claims without providing ANY evidence for those
claims.
108.Ian Bernard Says:

Don’t worry, Chris. Hack-job will explain all “in due time”.
We’re all waiting, Allen. Where did that $400,000 go? Perhaps if you were to
reveal, you might get some more contributions. That is, if it was spent somewhat
intelligently. If it wasn’t, then revealing the info will hurt your contributions.
Which may explain why you have not done so.
109.Chris Hickman Says:

SVD,
You’ve yet to provide the promised public beta, or even screen shots as some have
asked for. When will you provide these, or why won’t you?
110.GreginOz Says:
Actually, this is funnier than the old site! Waddapakowankers. Oh, and ‘e-fellate’,
Mike? Priceless.
111.undercover_anarchist Says:
MEG FOR LP PRESIDENTIAL NOMINATION 2008
112.matt Says:
undercover_anarchist and meg are the same person! don’t believe the hype! it’s all
a fraud, I tell you!
113.Timothy West Says:

damn I cant believe this is still going on.
114.Equal Opportunity Cynic Says:

Chris Bowers wrote an intriguing article today on accountability and political
blogging on his Democratic/liberal site MyDD: How Bloggers Are Held
Accountable. If you can look past the ideological differences, there’s a lot of
thought-provoking material there.
The implications here should be obvious. Everyone’s cursing the darkness of a

content provider who isn’t meeting their expectations, but no one’s lighting a
candle by providing an alternative, or exploring alternatives that are out there.
(There are alternatives I’ve mentioned elsewhere but I don’t wish to be perceived
as a shill for them; I’m just a schmo who wants to see a good free Libertarian
community I can start getting my hands dirty.)
Jeez, if liberal Democrats can get understand that the free market brings
accountability, why do libertarians seem so foreign to the idea? Those who
“donated” to vaporware may feel a certain amount of vendor lockin, but the rest
of us have no reason to wait for one provider.
Conversely, if Stephen van Dyke can build a better mousetrap and avoid his
odious and risible trash talk, I’ll be one of thousands encouraging you to use the
service he provides.
115.kcjerith Says:
Hey, SVD, don’t feel bad, you are not the only one with release date problems,
http://www.antimusic.com/news/06/dec/1801.shtml
I mean if axel can’t get a album out, then nothing is for sure
But really, I think it would be fair to release a screen shot or some more specfic
info, I mean people have donated cash. I should add that I have not donated a dam
thing, so I can’t bitch to much (though I want my HoT!).
Until then there is what? hit and run? good, but no HoT,
http://www.reason.com/blog
and there Last free voice,
http://lastfreevoice.wordpress.com/
which is very cool, but not enough people to get good discussions going. Yes, i
am sure everyone knows these last two sites, but just in case.
116.kcjerith Says:
And yes I am late on this part,
mainstream libertaranism?a good way to destroy the values of the party, but yet
make no politcal progress, because you know, the only thing holding us back is
the fact that we don’t look enough like the other parties.

kcjerith,
OK, I can’t help it, I’m a shill. Does http://libertyforamerica.net/ look like what
you’re looking for? It’s not very populated at present though.
118.Deja Vu? Says:

http://www.coolparty.us/index.php/in/2005/on/02/15/democrat-and-republican-
geeks-beware/
From Stephen VanDyke (a libertarian dude who knows more about internet
politics than everyone at National LP HQ put together — not that that’s saying
much, unfortunately):
Actually, PushLiberty.org will launch publicly shortly (when it’s done). It’s a
hybrid between Google News and Blogdex, but with only libertarian blogs. It
should pay for itself with Google adsense and be a low maintenance site with big
return. There is a headline box for activism as well that works similar to the other
topics so don’t fret about that.
The site is meant to be an enabler, not a pure activism site… it will make sense
when I launch (and all the Republican and Democrat geeks will wail and gnash
their teeth in envy).
This entry was posted on Tuesday, February 15th, 2005
119.kcjerith Says:
EOC, thanks for the link, I have bookmarked it and will check it out. I just have a
feeling I am going to have to be patient with HoT
120.Chuck Moulton Says:

It’s interesting that these two threads are entangled.

There are people criticizing Allen Hacker instead of stepping up and running
campaigns themselves the way they say it should be done.
There are people criticizing Stephen VanDyke instead of stepping up and

programming websites themselves the way they say it should be done.
I certainly would have done several things differently from both these people, but
I have great respect for doers and I’d like to see more people step up and take
action instead of criticizing while doing nothing productive themselves.
121.Dan Says:
Chuck, people donated large sums of money both to Hack and Vandam. That is
not productive in your view?
122.Mike N. Says:
and there Last free voice
BARF!

Chuck, I donated money for LibertyMix and I donated even more to the Badnarik
campaign. I’m glad to see that that is not considered doing or being productive, so
that the next time a libertarian campaign or cause comes calling for my dollars, I
can say: “Hey, you’re a bunch of doers and I’m not. You don’t need my money
since it wouldn’t be productive anyway. Just ‘do’ some more.”
I’m not upset with SVD since I would have given him $25 anyway just for HoT
and the other things he has already done.
But Allen keeps making claims about how he’s made companies billions, how he
has a special talent for running campaigns, and how he is my “mentor”. I’m not
upset that I donated money to the campaign, or that the campaign did poorly. I’m
upset that Allen has the balls to continue to claim that he’s some great guru when
he OBVIOUSLY is not.
124.Jay Says:
Allen “Hackjob” is no different than the rest of the jackasses running campaigns
whether it be for Republicans or Democrats. Way to go, asshole. You are
destroying the credibility of the entire libertarian movement.
Show me the money. What did you do with it, you self-proclaimed multi-
millionaire money whore.

“There are people criticizing Stephen VanDyke instead of stepping up and

programming websites themselves the way they say it should be done.”
So if I’m not able to code my own website, that makes me ineligible to criticize
the way someone else is doing it when I gave them money to do so? Sorry, but
you’re wrong. Even if you weren’t wrong, the fact remains that this site is
approaching a full year overdue. You’ve obviously never worked in an
environment where you have authority over something that requires you to spend
money to have professional specialists complete part of the task for you. Bottom
line is that when you ask for money and you get it, you need to produce what was
promised, when it was promised. It’s missed release dates not once, not twice, but
SIX times (see Meg’s post above). We still don’t know WHY it’s delayed like this
because he won’t answer.
Anyone interested in pursuing class action litigation?
126.Mike N. Says:
Anyone interested in pursuing class action litigation?
I’d rather he keep the $50 I sent for LibertyMix. I spend more than that on food
each day.
127.Mike N. Says:
Oops, forgot to close tag.

Litigation? Over $25!
Even if you win you would be in the hole a couple of thousand dollars after the
lawyers get their cut.
129.Steve Says:
Good grief, you guys are ridiculous. Before finding thread, I was irritated as hell
at checking the HoT site every day for several weeks and wondering if it had gone
dead. However, this whiny garbage has been enough to convert me into a SVD-
defender.
“Class action litigation”, over a handful of people coughing up twenty-five bucks?

SVD being in “contract breach” over “professional software services”, for
missing his self-imposed deadlines to update a blog? WTF?!? Are you kidding
me? Get a life! If SVD is reading this, I’ve been offline for a few months and
missed whatever “fundraiser” was held… but I’d be happy to kick in $25 now just
out of spite at this nonsense!
Where Van Dyke screwed up was in taking down the old WordPress site before
the newer version was ready to take its place. He should have left the old version
running until the very last minute. If some data got lost during the transition, who
really cares? It’s just a current events blog, not the Library of Congress where
everything must stay archived forever.
However, what’s done is done… and the fact that no other libertarian blog has
really stepped up to fill HoT’s absence says it all. Sure, some HoT bloggers are
apparently biding their time over on that Last Free Voice thing… but it’s a boorish
rant-site full of typos and bad grammar, like something a high-school student
would put on MySpace. The lack of comments or even hits shows that the free
market has decided that Van Dyke brings something to the table, and it would
rather wait on him for now.
Having said all that, I do disagree with Chuck Moulton’s logic that one cannot
question anything unless one is engaged in doing that same thing themselves. I’ve
never planned a war in Iraq, but I still have opinions on the subject. By the way,
but I just went to visit your website, Chuck. You’re a high-level official in a
political party… SMILE when you’re getting your picture taken for Pete’s sake!
Also, and it’s nothing personal here, but having the main page consist simply of
the vote totals by which you beat your opponents doesn’t come across well.

I’d be happy to kick in $25 now just out of spite at this nonsense!
Good to see the Invisible Hand at work. Don’t deliver and make money doing it.
What a deal! (I’m obviously misguided to bust my arse trying to keep non-
libertarian clients happy instead of selling snake oil to libertarians who’ll pay me
for air just to spite other libertarians. Wonder if there’s still room to get on that
gravy train?)
Hopefully the rest of the “clientele” is a bit more demanding. If not, we may have
a fascinating case study in market failure.
131.Wes P Says:
SVD provided a “screenshot” of Libertymix on HoT months ago, but it should be

obvious now, as I said then, that any “screenshot” is vaporware, easily codeable
with a little static html. A screenshot is to an interactive website as a three-frame
cartoon is to an immersive virtual reality.
Don’t waste your time and his, asking for screenshots.
132.Josh Says:
I couldn’t thank you enough for the extra traffic you brought in when I
commented in Devil’s Advocate position on Perverted Justice. But that’s of course
not the only reason I read and love your site!
Please be back soon, and keep us posted!!
133.Meg Says:
What is PushLiberty.org?
Here is a screenshot of LibertyMix.com, from way back in May.
134.Meg Says:
In case that link doesn’t work, it came from here:
Link
In case that link also doesn’t work, here is another one.
First Look at LibertyMix.com
135.GreginOz Says:
Bah! Fergit hit! let’s talk about Kelo Vs anyone who owns land!
http://www.ij.org/private_property/didden/12_18_06pr.html
136.Deja Vu? Says:

Meg:
re: PushLiberty
http://web.archive.org/web/20050306033817/http://hammeroftruth.com/
“Our Path is Clear, and Our Obstacles… Insignificant email this post
Categories: Politics, Culture, Blogging
The LNC has given every indication that we, the small “L” libertarian blogging
community, will remain marginalized and will only be patronized in order to try
and appease us.
To paraphrase a proverb: if we can’t go to the LP, we’ll make the LP come to us.
Here’s the plan:

I will be working with a small group of people over the next month (Stephen
Gordon included of course) to develop and test a collaborative libertarian website
along the lines of what we would have liked to do for the LP (minus specific state
applications). This will be a multi-user and multi-poster website much like
DailyKos, MyDD and RedState, only it will feature the libertarian community. We
will use this site to raise the overall libertarian profile and awareness, promote
libertarian candidates and campaigns that are well run and can win, and to act as a
“hive” that can sting our opponents with the barbs of opposition research and
negative exposure and reward our allies with the honey of contributions and
praise.
Anyone will be able to sign up and start their own journal, or integrate an existing
blog into the site via RSS or permanent migration and redirection (I will
eventually be migrating Hammer of Truth into the new site permanently). While
there will of course be issues that we still have not tackled, we hope to create a
central meeting place for libertarians in order to harness the numbers we do have
and grow the potential numbers at our horizon.
This will begin the jumping point for the masses of libertarianism to grow as a
political voice, regardless of whether our own stuffy relic of a political party
wants to let control be wrenched from its hands or not. Sadly, there is one thing
they should have realized: they never had a choice.
If you have exceptional skills in PHP, MySQL, HTML/CSS or graphic design, we

can always use an extra hand (we had about 14 people working on the Badnarik
Web Team at some point or another). Drop a comment here and I’ll respond to the
email address used.
UPDATE: Stephen Gordon has this good news (we’ve been busy tonight): “I’d
like to announce that we have a national PAC, to be directed by George Phillies,
at our disposal for bank deposit, reporting and money distribution purposes.”
UPDATE: The PushLiberty Web Team has been established, we are hitting the
ground running.
posted
on Feb 18, 2005
at 8:13 pm by Stephen VanDyke # | Comments/Trackbacks (12) ”
137.Meg Says:
Wow, PushLiberty.org sounds really awesome. It will make a good companion to

Libertymix and Hammer of Truth.
I’d like to hear more about that national PAC.
138.Steve Says:
The National Committee put control of one of its checkbooks into the hands of an
active Presidential candidate? That’s… interesting.
139.undercover_anarchist Says:
A threat of litigation is about as absurd as Allen Wacker’s threat to sue HoT for
defamation of whatever.
BUT.. Just to clarify, class action suits are precisely for instances in which the
amounts involved are low (i.e. $25). Otherwise, the ultimate Allen Hacker scheme
would be to found a company (or religion) and defraud a lot of people out of a
little money each. They couldn’t sue because it would be a no-win situation for
them. If the class is large enough, the class can absorb the cost for just a few
dollars (or less) each, and hopefully recover the majority of their claims.
If anything, people should work on seeing how they can get Hack-job into jail.
140.Meg Says:
I don’t want to sue anyone. I don’t even want my money back. I just want
Libertymix, or, barring that, some good explanations why it’s nearly a year late.
Can’t wait to see the site. The screenshots from back in May were good; given
that the developers have had 7 months to work on and improve the site since then,
it should be excellent when/if it is released.
141.Mikie Vee Says:

December 21st, 2006 at 1:36 pm
To make light of this matter-I know this has been said before-in brevity and for
entertainment…
I was sitting around wondering why ‘us’ Libertarians never get anything like this
completed in the political arena. I deduced that we’re too busy actually
contributing to the market machinery that we neglect delving into the seemingly
fruitless battle of modern politics.
Or we’re too busy watching pr0n, doings drugs, and shooting off our M2
Browning?

Probably all of the above.
The part that just mystifies me is the “vendor lockin”. You’d think that
libertarians’ belief in the free market would predispose them to look for better
mousetraps, instead of the opposite.
My only reasons for disliking van Dyke are:
1. Just this, my sense of propriety that if you fail to deliver the market should
extract a price
2. His utter arrogance in gloating about his ability to deliver several months late,
how his vaporware is far cooler than an existing site, etc.
That’s all. I have no financial interest in this market and, if those two issues were
addressed, I’d be happy to support whoever offers the best solution. I just find it
really ironic that so many self-imagined free-marketeers are so emotionally
connected to one vendor.
143.titaniumgirl Says:
If anyone is interested in a libertarian-friendly community website – I’m working

on libertymove.org and you can sign up now and post info and stories related to
the liberty movement. It’s a great tool for getting people together and organizing
events or meetups. Please check it out – www.libertymove.org
144.Bryan Says:
Equally Opportunity Cynic—-

Markets are driven by individuals and people are not always rational. The fact that
people would have an irrational attachment to some guys promises should not be
at all surprising to anyone with a cursory understanding of economics. It simply
plays into the subjective theory of value. Only a handful of people are doing
anything similar to the guy and none on the level that HOT was doing back in the
day. If you really want the market to punish him for being so slow the best way to
do that is to beat him to the punch.
145.James Says:
December 22nd, 2006 at 5:58 pm
You know, being late is one thing. Take the estimate on any software project and
add a zero tends to be a good rule of thumb. But why take down HoT in
preparation for the launch of something that wasn’t even done? Oh well,
everyone’s first time as a lead dev is a learning experience. But I just pulled HoT
from first off my list of regular blogs and tossed it into the folder of places to
check every few months.
For future reference, you shouldn’t kill your primary center of marketing in the
final months prior to a major release. You care, the donors here care, most of the
rest of us are steadily wandering off to other places.
146.DAP Says:
“But why take down HoT in preparation for the launch of something that wasn’t
even done?”
Because he wanted to silence the people who were complaining about the delays.
Even before he took down HoT, he ended all commenting on topics related to
LibertyMix.
147.Erik Says:
While not the same as HoT or what Liberty Mix is/was supposed to be I have just
launched Liberty Ledger a Digg style meta blog. Everyone should feel free to
check it out and use it and abuse it.
148.Erik Says:
Heh cant get my on URL right its http://libertyledger.NET

December 23rd, 2006 at 5:41 am
8 1/2 days without posting here and just about 10 days since the “sorry it’s not
done” message on the website was updated. Still no “public beta”. Any new
members of the “I feel ripped off” fanclub yet?
Here’s the recap for those who haven’t been keeping track (thanks Megan):
A Brief History of LibertyMix.com Delays:
Release Date: 2/06 (beta for donors)

Excuse: ?

Excuse: Greeks are always late for things

Excuse: “accidently overwritten the portion of the code for nesting comments and
hierarchical article display”

Excuse: “It’s done, but I’m not pulling back the curtain just yet.” (In other words,
I just don’t want to.)
Release Date: 11/07

Excuse: ?

Excuse: It’s just not done yet (?)———————————————————-
I’m not sure how one could not feel ripped off by this situation since election day,
but maybe I’m too cynical. At the very least, he was caught in a boldfaced lie – if
it was “done” as of 10/28, then there should have been no barrier to release on
election day! He’s yet to explain that one away, leaving us instead with another
release date and tearful apology for missing THAT one, the latter of the two
referenced.
SVD, where’s liberty mix? Where’s the explanation for the election day debate?
You assert that we shouldn’t compare you to Allen Hacker, but at least his scam is
somewhat obfuscated (maybe he’s just a smarter crook than you; his amount of
“allegedly” pilfered funds totals over 10 times yours). We want accountability,
answers, and results!

Wow, it’d be great if HOT/libertymix was around to talk about this:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15587326/
Too bad Stephen Van Dyke is a shyster. I’m sure he’s having a wonderful
Christmas right now with the $12,000 in free money he stole from libertarians,
through the aid of Badnarik. Maybe he’s gone and joined the Church of Allen
Hacker too.
151.Erik Says:
Chris I’ve put that story into the upcomming section of the Liberty Ledger feel
free to comment on the story there and vote on it.
152.Tom Hanna Says:

Wonder if we should read anything into the fact that the “announcement” on HOT
and LibertyMix no longer points to this discussion.

Call me a negative nancy, but I don’t see a positive way to spin it. Check that –
there’s been an “update”. Yay !! wink
Just another attempt by Stephen Van Allen Hacker to obscure the truth, methinks.
154.Meg Says:
Wonder if we should read anything into the fact that the “announcement” on
HOT and LibertyMix no longer points to this discussion.
Sure we should.
On HoT, before it went down, there would be occasional “I’m sorry, it’s delayed
again” post. When too many people asked questions about it in the comments
section, the commenting on those threads was turned off.
Eventually, people just began asking their questions on other, non-Libertymix

threads. So, the whole site was shut down.
Now, the link to a simple DISCUSSION about the topic has been removed. Not
surprising.
Heck, at least it’s an update of some kind, right?

Here is a discussion on the topic that will not be deleted or removed.

Well, maybe I’m naive about how important presentation is to people in terms of
gaining “mindshare”, but I still don’t see why LibertyForAmerica.net has failed to
gain any traction whatsoever among the conversations above about how “no one”
is building a libertarian community site. I mean, yes, the site looks like shit. And
yes, as far as I know, the owner realizes this and plans to correct it.
On the other hand, you have phased releases so that, if you post on the site that
looks like shit, your post will still be there at some future date when the site looks
rather better.
Instead people would rather have the promise of a really kick-ass site by someone
who’s successfully produced really nice-looking sites in the past, but whose
understanding of phased releases is zero. In other words, it’s all or nothing—
maybe one day we’ll get a really kick-ass looking site with lots of functionality,
but until then we get, “Sorry for the delay”.
I know which I prefer, but apparently the market disagrees with me.
(I also have some problems with the original site design Stephen proposed—i.e.
that only “national correspondents” could post on “national issues”—but perhaps
that’s fallen by the wayside. If not, people are going to be sorely disappointed
with ‘Mix even when if it does come out.)
156.Meg Says:
January 1st, 2007 at 6:13 am
Well, it’s 2007, and no LibertyMix.com. Anyone hoping for a New Year’s
Surprise is gonna be disappointed.
157.Amused Observer Says:

January 2nd, 2007 at 8:03 am
It’s kind of funny that Van Dyke is taking all the heat for this and everybody
seems to be ignoring Stephen Gordon’s role in the fiasco. Gordon and Van Dyke
launched the project jointly, but Gordon is the one who did all the fundraising and
phone calling. It’s a pity to have that sort of person on the LP staff.
158.Meg Says:
January 2nd, 2007 at 3:06 pm
I think most people have given up on Gordon.

At least we hear from SVD every once in a while. Sure, it’s usually once a month
or so, and then just to offer a lame excuse as to why it’s delayed again, but at least
that’s SOMETHING. Gordon seems to have washed his hands of the whole deal
once he got the LP job.
I guess he thinks he’s too good for us now.
159.Wes P Says:
January 2nd, 2007 at 4:51 pm
Equal Opportunity Cynic Says:

... I still don’t see why LibertyForAmerica.net has failed to gain any traction
whatsoever …
It’s not just the technical virtues of the website and attitude of its owner that
matter. People want to chat where there are lots of other interesting people that
chat. So it’s a chicken and egg problem. There aren’t many posts there yet, but if
you and I and several other people get busy, it will suddenly look a lot more
interesting than it does now, and more people will join, etc., etc.
fwiw I just went and created a free account there. The slight effort (about one
minute) and psychological commitment involved are a bit of a hurdle, but trust me
—no pain yet. Now let’s see if and when I’m actually moved to post anything,
and what…
It LOOKS like anybody with an account can “create content”, which I guess
means putting up a post that others can comment on. That might make it more
popular, but perhaps also more intimidating in a way.

January 3rd, 2007 at 3:22 am
That’s the big thing…I don’t want to have to register for another site. Here and
with the old HOT, I just put my name in and post. That’s my viewpoint on the
issue.

January 4th, 2007 at 8:21 pm
I’m confused. Megan says Badnarik does not know about LibertyMix.com. Does
that mean that the two Stephens used his name without his permission when they
sent out the letter at:
http://web.archive.org/web/20060111104945/http://hammeroftruth.com/liberty-
venture/
162.Meg Says:
That must be what it means.
I’ve searched for like 15 minutes for the specific comments from Badnarik, to the
effect that “I’ve never heard of Libertymix”.
But it was on HammerOfTruth.com, which has been taken down, so the comment
is gone as well. I can’t find it on Google.

January 11th, 2007 at 6:55 am
If anybody really has issues, they should probably send comments to the LNC
about how an LP staff member (prior to joining the staff) was involved in this
deal, which, even if it wasn’t a scam, draws into question his reliability. It is
appropriate to mention that the staff member’s prior actions reflect negatively on
the LP and may impact it’s ability to raise funds.
164.Meg Says:
You’re right, Observer – I think I’ll do that.
I guess we should be grateful. If these comments were made on Hammer of Truth,

the commenting on that thread would have been turned off, and the site shut down
to prevent further questions.
165.SMiles Says:
January 30th, 2007 at 10:59 am
Wow, so I guess LibertyMix.com is dead – or rather was stillborn? Never breathed

… and HammerOfTruth along with it …
I hope LM ressurrects and HoT is reborn.
Good luck to it’s creators and investors.
sMiles
166.Abi Says:
February 3rd, 2007 at 8:55 am
Awesome, man
167.Adrienne Says:
February 12th, 2007 at 9:19 am
Glad to hear it
168.viagra Says:
February 18th, 2007 at 7:07 pm
viagra
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169.generic for norvasc Says:

February 20th, 2007 at 12:29 pm
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170.hydrocodone Says:
March 9th, 2007 at 3:59 am
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171.xgoib Says:
April 9th, 2007 at 8:38 am
Good site
172.Meg Says:
May 3rd, 2007 at 2:34 pm
Wow, it’s been about 5 months since this piece was written, and not only is
LibertyMix.com nowhere to be found, we’ve also received NO word on it from
Gordon or Van Dyke.
If you needed any further evidence they are scammers, this is definately it.
I’m interested in taking further action on this matter. If anyone else is interested,
please leave a message here.
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Third Party Watch

The Return of HoT? The Launch of LibertyMix?

I get a little clock counting down to 7:00 AM Eastern Time…

Will the critics be silenced? Will it be a flop?

Apparently we’ll see at 7:00 AM.

172 Responses to “The Return of HoT? The Launch of LibertyMix?”

1. Austin Cassidy Says:

2. Austin Cassidy Says:

And the announcement….

Thanks for your patience,

3. Michael Hampton Says:

Perfection is stupid. Not to mention impossible.

Release early and often, bugs or no bugs.

4. Chris Hickman Says:

http://conversate.org/conversation/3HWI8 is the “clearinghouse” for discussion

Came here from the link posted after this:

Thanks for your patience,

5. Chris Hickman Says:

6. Stephen VanDyke Says:

7. Michael Hampton Says:

Oh well, if it happens, it happens.

9. Stephen VanDyke Says:

Jesus, you guys can be ruthless some times.

10. Austin Cassidy Says:

11. Barry Wray Says:

12. mrjarrell Says:

13. Eric Sundwall Says:

I must say that I am SHOCKED by this totally unforseen turn of events.

15. HippyChimp Says:

16. mariannna Says:

17. Nick Wilson Says:

18. Nick Wilson Says:

Steven – misspelled. Sorry.

20. Meg Says:

21. Chuck Moulton Says:

22. Stuart Richards Says:

23. Meg Says:

24. Deived Says:

26. matt Says:

27. SMiles Says:

For Jah’s sake … release the dang thing! This is ridiculous!

28. DAP Says:

SVD sucks at life.

29. Jim Phelps Says:

30. megan Says:

31. megan Says:

A Brief History of LibertyMix.com Delays:

Release Date: 2/06 (beta for donors)

Release Date: 4/15/06

Release Date: 6/6/06

Release Date: 10/28/06

Release Date: 12/14/06

32. torah Says:

When it hits the Net, it’ll be beautiful. Worth the wait.

33. Derrick Says:

34. Jason Gatties Says:

35. Mike N. Says:

There is a handy little search feature on this site:

36. Meg Says:

37. Meg Says:

38. Mike N. Says:

LOL! This Meg chick is cool.

“SVD sucks at life.”

No, no, no.