Full Comments On Tony Jones On Sarcastic Luther 889 PDF

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10/04/2015 19:49
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Tim Wilson-Brown
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7 hours ago
Despite the warnings and the apology, this outcome is convenient for those in power in
Emergent, and completely in line with Tony Jones' previous and continuing actions to silence
any conversations about this alleged abuse. You really should be more careful to avoid actions
that would clearly be viewed incredibly skeptically by a large number of commenters.
I notice you also disabled comments enitrely on your apology, which is also convenient. After
using a post with almost a thousand comments as a trial run, did you do the same thing, or try
something dierent?
Matthew, if you doubt your technical competence, don't take your first action in public, on a
highly controversial and visible blog, aecting almost a thousand comments. This should be
embarrasing for you, and whoever granted you admin access, and Nadia.
Try a private test environment, or, if Patheos doesn't provide that, an ancient post with few
comments. "Test on an inconspicuous spot first", as they say.
Secondly, if you modify a post or its comments, please edit the post to acknowledge that. It's
basic Internet etiquette. Otherwise, Patheos tech support will get complaints that comments on
their site aren't working, from those who come straight to the post.
This could mean editing the "Do you have questions" post to document the disabling of local
comments, and their new location on disqus. It also would help to put
a note at the bottom of your apology to note that comments are disabled there as well.
Given your lack of experience, you may want to make sure that Nadia's next post actually has
active comments - unless, of course, you intend comments to be o for future posts.
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Jmac6301
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11 hours ago
I will ask again...what format would you like all 881 comments in? I will send after class around
10 pm central so they can be back up by 10:30PM. I know you would NEVER delete
comments. It's okay. We can get them right back up. Thank you for not being like the enabling
abusers who covered up his abuse for the past 7 years primarily by deleting threads such as
this.
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Jmac6301
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11 hours ago
Where are my comments? Your wife has my email. Why is she hiding? Further, why is a smart
woman going down for an abusive NPD?
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hikerrev
11 hours ago
@ Jmac6301 ~ I just sent you a FB message. It may end up in your 'other' folder, which is why I
make note of it here.
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Jmac6301
11 hours ago
He tees it up by saying, "I might accidentally delete" WHAT FRAUDS!!!
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Jmac6301
11 hours ago
Nadia's Lutheran Bishop told her to not speak to a woman who was physically, emotionally,
and litigiously abused?
She was told instead to endorse shamelessly the abuser and ignore the woman? Even hang up
on her when she called her by phone out of desperation having been silenced and shunned by
all of the middle aged white males in and around Emergent epicenter.....she asked her for help
and she said, "I will not engage in gossip."
You are saying that Nadia was advised by her Lutheran Bishop to...
"In response to the advice given to her by
her Bishop, her Spiritual Director, and her husband (me), Nadia makes it
a policy to not read any comments on her blog or on her Facebook page."
Was she clairvoyant when she attacked commenters calling them people with "digital
pitchforks." She won't comment but she will publicly post a support letter of an abuser who
threatens at progressive "Christian" conferences to attendees how he would like to have his ex
wife murdered. THAT the Bishop of the Lutheran Church in Denver, Colorado supports? I don't
think so.
Doubt it. Bishop? Bishop of the Lutheran church in Denver, Colorado for the House of All
Saints and Sinners, are you REALLY supporting this sham and advised Nadia to remain silent
about an abuser when the evidence is overwhelming?
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Jmac6301
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11 hours ago
From an anonymous source.....

I have been following this situation since last September, but have been
very hesitant to share one of the main reasons why I've believed Julie
since she first posted on NP's story last September. I have friends and
colleagues who support ToJo. I don't know what the consequences will be
if this gets traced back to me, but here goes: I met ToJo last year at a
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conference. Within about an hour of meeting him he made comments to me

about wanting to 'murder his ex-wife' and wishing he had never had
children. I knew nothing of his personal life at the time, but I
remember being really weirded out by the intensity with which he said
these things. He did not sound 'jokey.' It was disturbing. I handed my
hosting responsibilities over to other conference volunteers after that
and kept my distance from him. Even so, I had held out the possibility
that I might pursue a partnership with JoPa on a future conference, but
realized in January, when ToJo began his retaliation against Julie, that
I could not, in good conscience do so. I reached out to Julie privately
two months ago to let her know and to oer my prayers and support. One
side note: I have also been asked to provide major financial support to
a local NBW appearance in 2016. I intend to speak to the organizers of
that event about withdrawing my pledge and to tell them why. Sorry for
attempting to be anonymous about this, I hope you all understand.
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Jmac6301
11 hours ago
She never reads her comments....BS. That's why she attacked commenters calling them
people with "digital pitchforks." And, what is this weird behavior of Rachel and Nadia having
their husbands swoop in to save them. Dear Lord, you just set the woman's movement back to
1950. Nadia's a big girl she can speak up for herself and she has some serious explaining to do
as to why she supports and in an over the top manner an abuser?! She is supportive of a man
who threatened to have his ex wife murdered? Yes, that happened and at a "Christian
conference."
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CurtisMSP
12 hours ago
So when people reach out to Nadia for help on social media, she ignores them? This is on the
advice of her Bishop?
Isn't it dishonest to not tell people this before they start reaching out, with the assumption that
Nadia is reading?
The honest thing to do would to turn o comments on the blog and on Facebook, rather
continue with the deception that Nadia is reading them. Maybe you can ask what the Bishop's
advice about deception is and get back to us?
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hikerrev
12 hours ago
I recently received notice that the comments here, in response to this note Nadia has written
about a new book, have gotten quite numerous and by some accounts somewhat aggressive.
Further, (having briefly glanced at only a handful of comments, I see that) there are some false
assumptions being made here as well as some inappropriate ad hominem attacks.
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I will, therefore, be disabling comments for this post.

Please know that Nadia has not read any of these comments and does not know what's been
said here. In response to the advice given to her by her Bishop, her Spiritual Director, and her
husband (me), Nadia makes it a policy to not read any comments on her blog or on her
Facebook page.
However, the comments are occasionally reviewed (but not shared with her) by people who
love her, and in this case I have made the decision that there has been enough opportunity for
folks to weigh in. None of the comments, thus far, have been deleted by me or by Nadia. If any
have been deleted, that has been done by someone other than this household and
unbeknownst to me. Further, it is not my intention to delete any of the comments posted here
... however, as this is my first time administering a Patheos blog, if I accidentally do so, please
forgive me.
Peace be with you.
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hikerrev > hikerrev
7 hours ago
Great idea, KT. The link to this thread is now posted on the apology post on Nadia's
blog.
And thanks for your reflections, Caryn. I honestly don't know when the general practice
of not reading or responding to comments started, but thank you for pointing out the
truth that many people expect that the poster is also paying attention to the comments.
I'll talk with Nadia about whether or not it makes sense to put some kind if disclaimer in
the blog intro.
Nadia is the Pastor of House for All Sinners and Saints, which is part of the Rocky
Mountain Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. I feel uncomfortable
putting contact info here, but I'm sure you can track that down.
As to the remainder of the conversation posted since the comments were taken down,
I'd like to share that Julie and I have had a conversation with one another on another
platform, and I thank sincerely thank her for that.
Further, please note that I won't be taking the time to track this conversation very
closely over the coming days, so I ask that you not take oense if I don't respond to this
conversation.
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KT Pridgen > hikerrev
6 hours ago
Thank you for posting the link, Matthew!

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Living Liminal > hikerrev
6 hours ago
It's good to see a link to the accidentally lost comments has been added. Is there any
reason it wasn't put up on the post that people were actually commenting on?
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Caryn LeMur > hikerrev
9 hours ago
Hi Hikerrev:
You wrote on Nadia's Blog: "In response to the advice given to her by her Bishop, her
Spiritual Director, and her husband (me), Nadia makes it a policy to not read any
comments on her blog or on her Facebook page."
1. When did this policy start? At what date did Nadia continue posting, but determined
to never read a comment?
2. Whom is her Lutheran Bishop that gave such advice? May I have a name and
address to write to him/her? [I believe that such advice, which is "OK to proclaim; but
not OK to engage", is counter to the gospel of Christ. So, while I may applaud the
obedience of Nadia to her Bishop, I also wish to write to him/her and appeal his/her
guidance to Nadia.]
3. Please ensure that you also post in the Section above all future comments, "In
response to the advice given to her by her Bishop, her Spiritual Director, and her
husband (me), Nadia makes it a policy to not read any comments on her blog or on her
Facebook page." You should do this so that people like me, that posted questions to
Nadia, will realize that she will never read the question (and of course, then never
respond). In this manner, you will at least remove the appearance of deception (after all,
blogs on Patheos are for dialog with the author, rather than just for simple
proclamations by the author).
Sincerely; Caryn LeMur
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KT Pridgen > hikerrev
9 hours ago
Hey, I'm hoping you see an alert from this reply. I saw your apology post about deleting
the comments. The comments are all still available through Disqus. I think it'd be great
for transparency to include a link. Since deleting them was an accident, you can
essentially restore them by just posting the link that leads directly the the Disqus
conversation: https://disqus.com/home/discus...
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Caryn LeMur
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14 hours ago
Post 1 of 3:
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ONE REBUTTAL TO SUMMARY REQUESTED BY SOME HAVING TROUBLE

WITH DISQUS [posted by "Kandace"]:
I am not a lawyer.
I assume that Kandace is not a lawyer.
However, after researching the Digital Law Project, I am especially concerned that Kandace did
not mention that Tony Jones is certainly a Limited Purpose Public Figure.
http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guid...
A Limited Purpose Public Figure is someone that has thrust themselves to the forefront of
particular controversies in order to influence the resolution of
the issues involved."
What has been discussed in these postings (on Nadias blog) are opinions. The subjects
discussed in these postings has been greatly encouraged by Tony Jones.
Please consider just the following (there is more):
Multiple times on his world-wide Internet Patheos Blog, Tony Jones thrust himself to the
forefront of discussions concerning marriage, sacramental marriage, legal marriage, his own
decision to obtain a sacramental marriage (and 2 years later obtain a legal marriage). Tony
Jones also made public the diculty of
his extrication (release from) his first marriage. [See especially his posts beginning 04 January
2010.]
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Caryn LeMur > Caryn LeMur
14 hours ago
Post 2 of 3:
Tony Jones also published a small book There Are Two
Marriages and made it available on Amazon.com for world-wide purchase, wherein he
extolled the possible non-bible-based virtues of obtaining two marriages in sequential
order with great time between each marriage (the first having no legal binding; the
second being perhaps 2 years later, and then conferring full Fed and State benefits
to the spouses).
Thus, Tony Jones has thrust himself to the forefront of discussions concerning marriage,
theology, church-sanctioned premarital sex, and pragmatic denial of Biblical scriptures
[see especially First Timothy 5:8].
A few times on the NakedPastor blog of 05 September 2014, Tony Jones thrust himself
to the forefront of discussions concerning spiritual abuse (one of the issues in the
original NP post), and the conduct of Mars Hill pastor Mark Driscoll. Tony Jones first
wife also responded on the same blog concerning mental and marriage abuse.
On 16 September 2014, and in the above blog, Tony Jones stated, all
the court records in our divorce and subsequent legal activity are public.
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Anyone who really cared to know the truth would not have much trouble finding the
entire story. I have nothing to hide, as those records paint a clear picture. Thus both
Tony and his first wife arguably became limited purpose public figures in this area of
abuse (mental and spiritual), as well as concerning their own previous marriage.
Please note that Tonys statement " I have nothing to hide" if it only pertained to public
court records (already not hidden), would be nonsensical. Their private divorce thus
arguably became public fodder for public debate and opinions.
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Caryn LeMur > Caryn LeMur
14 hours ago
Post 3 of 3:
However, the most significant example by Tony Jones
showing his desire to thrust himself to the forefront of particular
controversies is this:
On/about 27 January 2015, and by publishing a 12 page document on the
World-wide Internet, Tony Jones again thrust himself into the controversies
swirling about his first
marriage, to include the following areas in particular:
(1) the status of his (and his first wife's) child custody;
(2) whom initiated the divorce;
(3) Tonys relationship with Courtney Perry (his second wife) prior to September
2008;
(4) Tonys relationship with Courtney Perry prior to divorce
proceedings (which proceedings resulted in divorce from his first wife);
(5) the allegation that Tony physically damaged his first wifes shoulder;
(6) spousal abuse (in particular; later, in general);
(7) alleged false reports by his first wife to law enforcement and child protection
services;
(8) Tonys payment of child support;
(9) one particular arrest incident that involved his first wife;
(10) one incident wherein Tony filed for temporary custody, which was denied by
the court;
(11) Tonys diagnosis of Narcissistic Personality Disorder
(NPD) and a (unstated) diagnosis given to his first wife; and
(12) that Tony Jones never had an aair and never used the phrase spiritual
wife [quick note, Tony uses the phrase sacramental wife];
and closes with Tonys legal and media contacts.
Dr. Tony Jones thus clearly confirmed his intense desire to keep himself as a
limited purpose public figure for the purposes of allowing the world-wide public
to comment on his personal life, his theology, his marriage philosophy, and the
many controversies and allegations concerning his first marriage to Julie
MacMahon.
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Again, Kandice did not mention how Tony Jones has undeniably sought to be a
very large limited purpose public figure. I am
impressed at the bravery of Dr. Tony Jones, and the amount of opinions and
debate Tony Jones has deliberately invited by virtue of his own actions.
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Gretchen
Reply Share
14 hours ago
As I read the comments I am struck by two things: 1) the talk of various individuals in ministry
having narcissistic traits or full NPD, and 2) the number of times posts contain the words "the
problem is..."
I realize I'm about to engage in a manor incongruent with the rest of the discussion, but this is
driving me NUTS and I need to say it somewhere...
In my opinion, THE PROBLEM isn't a narcissistic/abusive minister here and there (though that
is indeed a problem), but rather that Christianity itself--or at least American Christianity-fosters, produces and maintains narcissism in its members. Worse yet, narcissism has become
so woven into the fabric of Christian culture, particularly with respect to leadership, we are
drawn to and expect our leaders to demonstrate narcissism. Unfortunately, individuals with
NPD have a number of attractive qualities we tend to want in our leaders. As a community,
somehow we need to find a way to know/ remember that charming, engaging, provocative,
"edgy", sarcastic or otherwise dramatic
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Gretchen > Gretchen
14 hours ago
(Sorry, discus froze on me--picking up where I left o...) are both qualities that lend
themselves to performance art, but can ALSO be huge red flags for NPD.
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Gretchen > Gretchen
14 hours ago
I suspect we are more vulnerable to the charms of the narcissistic minister these
days, as so much of our culture has become entertainment oriented. Not trying
to be a curmudgeon here, I just think it's a real issue.
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Annie Banannie
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17 hours ago
Jmac- I love how you wear your heart on your sleeve. Of course NBW is in on it. "Hosting" this
comment thread as a sort of bizarro world answer to the NP thread. Too bad there aren't
enough tony supporters to make it look legit, because all those fake accounts are pretty
laughable.
You know it's not quite working how they want when they start deleting your comments and
limiting how you are able to post. I'm hoping all the best for your next outcomes. May there be
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more laughing at ToJo in the immediate future.

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KT Pridgen
17 hours ago
Julie has reported that she can no longer comment on NBW's blog. She believes she has been
blocked. Just FYI for y'all.
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CurtisMSP > KT Pridgen
17 hours ago
Let the censoring begin. Kandace said it was coming. It will be interesting to see what
story they are able to craft out of the mountain of discussion here.
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Jmac6301 > KT Pridgen
17 hours ago
I was just able to with my name but not as guest. only an admin can change that. they
need my name for it to be an exhibit like 2 weeks ago in court when he lost. this ain't my
first NPD rodeo....we are in double digits. I know and have seen it all before. gotta go to
my unpaid internship and then grad school. I'll be back much later to see the spin work!
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Caryn LeMur
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17 hours ago
Posted by Anne Lamont in another thread elsewhere, but very appropriate here:
*********************
7. Publication and temporary creative successes are something you have to recover from. They
kill as many people as not. They will hurt, damage and change you in ways you cannot
imagine. The most degraded and sometimes nearly-evil men I have known were all writers
who'd had bestsellers. Yet, it is also a miracle to get your work published ... . Just try to bust
yourself gently of the fantasy that publication will heal you, will fill the Swiss cheesey holes. It
won't, it can't. But writing can. So can singing.
**********************
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Jmac6301
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18 hours ago
My last 5 comments regarding this thread being the next exhibit in lawyer Simon Troutmans
next run at defamation were deleted. Nadia is in on this. When I receive the next Motion I will
speak out in detail. I hold the truth and that will always be my winning defense. The fact the
Judge told him to withdraw and not waste his time will not deter an NPD...they just work
another angle. I have survived the crazy campaign, the your mother is a criminal campaign, the
she has defamed me with false allegations claim. What's next? It seems to be some sort of
hybrid of she can't be telling the truth because she has rich relatives campaign? Creative for
sure....but the truth remains. My child has been used to try and silence me from telling my
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story. There is no depth to which a narcissist will go to destroy their target and yes they will
even stoop so low as to use the children.
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Caryn LeMur > Jmac6301
17 hours ago
Hopefully not!
Nadia: if you did delete those particular comments, please explain why?
I was hoping you would not go the way of Rachel Held Evans, now famous for her
'hiding' comments on her FaceBook Page. Yes, she used her husband to do the dirty
work (or, her husband asserted his authority over her ministry... we do not know).... but
the message to others was "Your voice does not matter to me."
"Open rebuke is better than hidden love." If you disagree with the postings concerning
X subject, then use the tool of 'open rebuke'. Please do not disgrace our Lord Jesus by
hiding comments.

Alan Molineaux
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18 hours ago
Getting the impression that this is not the same kind of safe safe space that David created on
his site.
1) Whereas David put a lot of eort into facilitating the conversation, Nadia seems to have
jumped ship.
2) The nature of disqus means that people can create accounts for the purpose of causing
trouble and baiting. They don't even seem willing to give details to someone they consider
safe.
3) It feels as if Julie has been left a little exposed by some of the comments. I think she
deserves more.
Julie - I hope you know that there are people who care about how this goes.
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Caryn LeMur
19 hours ago
Nadia and Tony:

In my mind, the death of Jesus opened the gateway to having a new heart within us. A heart
that was (by analogy) changed from being a 'stone' and 'non-living', to being 'alive' and
therefore 'trainable'.
I would be interested in reading how the Cross of Christ personally and pragmatically aected
each of you.
For example: I became a Christian by some sort of personal encounter with Jesus at the end of
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8th grade, in 1970. It was an amazing moment.

I changed slowly over the years. Being from a military family, I knew of loyalty, rank,
followership, and discipline.
But it was from Christians (my wife, Bonnie and a Christian school teacher) that I began to learn
of gentleness, kindness, and being patient with others. I learned forgiveness, how to release
people into the loving hands of Jesus, and move on with my life.
Your turns?
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Guest > Caryn LeMur
18 hours ago
Caryn, that was how I knew this was of ego and man and had absolutely nothing to do
with God. I kept asking, "Where is the fruit?" I am not seeing it! This is about big
business and not about any personal relationships with the Lord. There is no spiritual
growth. You will not be answered here or anywhere because we are being "stonewalled"
a silencing technique abusers use to control. Nadia is reading all of these comments
and choosing silence. She is a classic NPD enabler. Her words and actions do not align.
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Caryn LeMur > Guest
17 hours ago
Guest: you have a point, based on my review of the comments. I see very little to
nothing from Nadia.
May I propose we give her another day or two for answering my questions?
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CurtisMSP > Caryn LeMur
17 hours ago
Nadia has said nothing here. I'm not sure she comments in any of her
blog posts.
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KT Pridgen > Caryn LeMur
17 hours ago
Unfortunately, she had months to respond to the allegations against Tony

Jones. Like RHE, she's dismissed and blocked people attempting to
engage her about the issue.
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Caryn LeMur > KT Pridgen
17 hours ago
I am very sad to hear that Nadia has chosen to walk away from the
example of our Jesus.
Nadia: please consider our Lord's example in Matt 23. He was not afraid
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to call a spade a spade.

At the least, speak against the doctrine of "Two Marriages". I would
suggest that you reassert that you are a Lutheran Pastor, and not part of
the Emerging Movement.
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17 hours ago
Well, in Nadia's line of business, contracts come before God. Ironically

enough.
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Guest
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19 hours ago
then this...an actual death threat goes unchecked by feminist Nadia our "host"
I met ToJo last year at a conference. Within about an hour of meeting
him he made comments to me about wanting to 'murder his ex-wife' and
wishing he had never had children. I knew nothing of his personal life
at the time, but I remember being really weirded out by the intensity
with which he said these things. He did not sound 'jokey.' It was
disturbing.
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itsallasham
20 hours ago
Anyone bringing up Julie's family and the wealth present there is channeling ToJo and his circle
because that's all that guy ever talked about when they were married. That and his need to
make at least 100k/year to support his lifestyle (which is apparently not working since his
parents own his home). Take the personalities and history out of it and you get this: a selffulfilling circle of narcissists who wirte jacket blurbs for each other's books, sit around
comparing publishers and advance fees, and really really poor theology that has led more
people to idol worship than made any serious contribution to the future of the Christian church.
What HAS been helpful about the emergent movement? It has shown the evangelical church
that it is not God's great gift to mankind either and has helped many people leave behind the
abuses of power and spirituality they experienced there. But leave no doubt about it, I don't
give a rat's behind what you think of who said what to whom and who filed what about
whatever... the sum of these people's lives is what they can earn and how often they can get
others to pay to hear them speak and then pay more to let them hang out with each other
before and afterwards. You want to dent this thing? STOP GOING TO THEIR CONFERENCES
AND BUYING THEIR LAME BOOKS. You want to help Julie? Stop inflating egos to the point
that no one is listening to the voices of reconciliation, confession and absolution. I'd even say
David, et al should pause the whole thing too everyone who needs to know the truth now
knows it. There will be a few suckers who pay for the pleasure of Tony and Nadia's company
but if you all stop going then what movement are they really leading? Nadia has sacrificed her
role as a public leader for this lucrative friendship and her failed comedy career made way for
fawning legions of NBW-ites but after you've heard the same talk a few hundred times you will
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realize there is no 'there' there. It's empty calories. Loaded with MSG. Bad. For. Your. Soul.
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Guest > itsallasham
19 hours ago
I am not a psychologist but I am in graduate school getting my Masters in Clinical

Mental Health Counseling and LPCC. I listened to Nadia on On Faith radio show. She
has all of the hallmarks of a narcissist herself. I would not be surprised. Birds of a
feather.
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Alan Molineaux > itsallasham
19 hours ago
The problem is that this isn't just about TJ and his income. It is about the misuse of
power by church leaders.
I don't care what he earns. I don't really care if people want to buy his books or listen to
him (other than the eect upon the church)
I do care that the church hears the voice of the abused and has the chance to learn
lessons from things like this.
I am not sure that suggesting David should 'pause' does anything but support the
status quo: namely let's the powerful maintain their power.
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CurtisMSP > itsallasham
19 hours ago
The thing is, the critics of this Christian celebrity network are a tiny fraction of that
network's total followers. Most of the fans have either not heard the critique, or have
dismissed it, as they instructed to do by the network leaders. Now is not the time for the
critics to go silent. Now is the time to speak strongly until they are heard.
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Guest > itsallasham
19 hours ago
I agree with you whole heartedly. They are blind, deaf and dumb to the truth and it's
pointless. They are self made gods and stopped listening to the Holy Spirit long ago.
Preach reconciliation and refuse to reconcile with me. THIS is the theology. Empty
words and it's big business. I was a liability and needed to be discarded by the
machine. Thanks for adding your insight. He WAS obsessed with my lineage and
propped up his NPD ego. Money and status are everything to that guy. He wi use
anyone and anything to get ahead.
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nakedpastor > itsallasham
19 hours ago
I do appreciate your argument itsallasham. But it would only make sense if I cared only
for myself. What about all the people who continue to be bullied and abused by power
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and those who possess it? What about those who have suered from it and need a safe
space to share their experiences? My observation from the survivors I know is that they
are telling their stories not just for their own relief but for the redemption and relief of
those who are still under it. This is why I won't let it rest.
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No_6 > nakedpastor
17 hours ago
The problem with some advocates is the heaps of false hope that accompany
the advocacy. Your strength is in providing a platform, which you excel at above
all your peers. But what I know from first-hand experience having needed
advocates in the past is that once you go public--you're dealing with everyone
else's baggage, including the advocate's own baggage. And yes--I have never
met an advocate who didn't throw theirs on the pile, too. Which it is not a
victim's responsibility to deal with.

KT Pridgen
Reply Share
20 hours ago
So, do ya'll think these personas are Tony or his lawyer? I imagine some skeezy lawyer getting
paid $450 an hour for creating fake online profiles and annoying people online and laugh a
little.
3
Reply Share
wordvixen > KT Pridgen
11 hours ago
I call a mix. I'm almost positive that a handful are Tony. I'm betting a certain one is an
underling for his lawyer. I have one pegged for Courtney, but I'm willing to give that one
a pass in case I'm wrong. I don't know enough of Jay to peg his style.
1
Reply Share
Danica > KT Pridgen
16 hours ago
Believe me lawyers don't spend their time doing this. It's TJ, and maybe his right-hand
man Jay Bakker.
3
Reply Share
KT Pridgen > Danica
15 hours ago
Oooh, I just Googled Jay. Soooo many tattoos. And hipster glasses and sternlooking portraits. That means he's progressive and relevant, so it couldn't be
him. :P
2
Reply Share
CurtisMSP > KT Pridgen
17 hours ago
I'm thinking its the lawyers. The fake accounts are more creative than I am willing to
give Tony credit for. There are lawyers that specialize in extracting evidence from social
media. But the lawyers are just doing their job. It is Nadia that needs to be held
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accountable for allowing her blog to be used as an evidence gathering tool against a
victim of abuse.
3
CurtisMSP
Reply Share
20 hours ago
Why does Kandace fail to mention the most well-established facts in her "summary", such as
Tony's NPD, or the web of endorsement and publicity contracts among Tony's group? And
what makes her think these posts will be sensored soon? What does she know that she is not
saying?
4
Reply Share
Guest > CurtisMSP
20 hours ago
Cryptically intimidating. She knows the launch of the next lawsuit and has been sent to
solicit exhibits for the NPD. She has not been forthcoming and she cannot be found on
the internet as she said her thesis link would lead you to her. It didn't. Who are you
Kandace? Reveal yourself. You claim to be on the up and up but it's not adding up.
2
Reply Share
Alan Molineaux > Guest
19 hours ago
It interesting that NBW hasn't taken this stu down or entered the conversation.
It almost feels like a set up.
1
Reply Share
Guest > Alan Molineaux
18 hours ago
This is 100% fodder for the next lawsuit. I guarantee it and I will go viral
that Nadia was complicit. See, the thing is....I am not afraid. I hold the
truth and that is what my defense is and will always be. He has tried and
failed defamation BS before. Bring it! My lawyer before he withdrew
counsel because I owe 20k said, "His lawyer Simon Troutman is teeing up
the next lawsuit for lost wages." NPD's are MONSTERS they will never
quit fighting to control the narrative. I will be here giving real time
accounts of each and every litigation. Two weeks ago Simon Troutman
and his client lost in court. They attempted to gag me and prevent me
from ever posting my story. They brought in reams of blog posts from 3rd
parties like this as exhibits. He brought 6 witnesses including Jay Bakker.
In a paraphrased nutshell the Judge said, "Get out of my courtroom fool."
Simon said, "We withdraw our motion." If looks could kill....I was
murdered by the expression on my ex husbands face. Make no mistake
this is lawfare and he has deep pockets and a triple digit book advance to
attack me. Again, I hold the truth and I stand strong and confident in it.
1
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KT Pridgen > Guest
20 hours ago
Did she post a thesis link? I missed it. Do you know about what time she posted it so I
can search for it through this mess?
Reply Share
Guest > KT Pridgen
20 hours ago
She said she was searchable and would link to her thesis...nope dead
end. I asked for her twitter, FB, grad school name...something to prove
she was real...crickets. She was sent her to do a job.
1
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KT Pridgen > Guest
20 hours ago
It's just like what Tony did with his statement. He provided information
that looked reliable to get people to believe it but that information
couldn't be verified.
3
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Guest > KT Pridgen
19 hours ago
Her whole point was to try and connect dots and cast shadow that my
supporters were virtual. My friends and family are burnt out on this
disgusting story and I stopped talking about to them long ago. THEY all
know about the NPD and various abuses. I speak out now because it is
WRONG for "Christian leaders" to harbor an abuser.....even prop him up
while refusing to acknowledge the carnage in his wake. ANYONE with a
brain knows that an NPD diagnosis is enough to stop them in their tracks
and believe my story. Then coupled with all of my evidence that was
provided to bloggers and reputable prestigious institutions and then they
acted and spoke out boldly in my support...this happened and is
happening now and in real time. I'll give you an example of an NPD in
action this morning. My son was upset. He wants to go to environmental
camp. I am strapped for pennies and $175 is not something I can
casually write a check for. My son was told by his dad that, "Your mom
has to pay for that." I emailed the teacher and explained that they need to
ask him as I know he recently got a VERY hefty book advance. I copied
him and he shot back, "I'll pay....I never said I wouldn't." Sadly, the only
way to co-parent with an NPD is publicly. They ONLY care about their
public persona. This is what I deal with on the daily. I have become and
expert on NPD and hope to help others co-parent eectively. The public
image is paramount to everything. I use that to try and get my children
what they need.
3
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Guest
10/04/2015 19:49
a day ago
Kandace? Your "thorough" analysis is missing the part about a diagnosed narcissist with
sadistic traits and pathological lying. Two weeks ago when a judge literally said, "you can go
ahead and waste my time but you have no credibility in my courtroom and I suggest you
withdraw." Why? Because judges understand what an NPD is. Your analysis skims over that
lynch pin to understanding the entire story and why it looks this way 7 years later. You and BB
and Drea and Michael never want to discuss that part of the story, I wonder why that is?
3
Guest
Reply Share
a day ago

disturbing.
1
Guest
Reply Share
a day ago
I wonder why Kandace failed to mention a word about:

Aair
Abuse
"Bat shit crazy" campaign
"Your mother is a criminal" campaign
Cover up
Death threat
Legal threats
Litigious law fare of over $500,000 spent
You mostly wanted to cast smoke and mirrors on me personally with intimate details like my
address and mothers maiden name which were then put on the internet. Only my abuser knew
I was in Mexico last week. That's just sheer desperation!
5
Kandace
Reply Share
a day ago
Thank you to Julie supporters like Danica, KT, & Tim Wilson-Brown who transparently stated
they dont know Tony or Julie personally but repost her allegations bc they want to stand
against alleged abuse. A clarifier: Stu Christian Culture Likes, Naked Pastor, The Wartburg
Watch, & WatchKeep are not based in MN and their operators have not publicly claimed to
have known Tony or Julie during their marriage or divorce, however their sites oer religious
critique about
thousands of parties. They dont claim to do investigative research but rather
raise good questions to ask. Since Nadia hasnt felt comfortable participating, I have chosen at
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Curtis suggestion not to continue to ask questions of McLaren, Pagitt, Barnhill, Julia Doughty,
Stollar, Sargent, etc who post allegations or supportive statements. They have public profiles
that say whether they are local to MN anyways. And its been pointed out there are orgs, legal
parties, and reporters with more expertise than me to research this complex story.
Unfortunately, Nadia chose not to respond to questions, although its public shes known Tony
since approximately around 2007 and has spent time with him thru those yrs during many
publicly referenced projects, events, and aliations. Based on their publicly known
interactions, it appears she knows Tony & his current wife well, but does not know Julie. Julie
has stated she and Nadia spoke on the phone once. In this call, Julie has claimed Nadia said
she refused to gossip and hung up.
I also disclosed that I do not know Tony or Julie personally. In addition, CurtisMSP was not
comfortable disclosing whether he has real-life connection at this time. David Hayward has not
yet responded to questions about whether he has a real-life, in person experience with Tony or
Julie. Someone asked me to publish a summary of the comments since as Julie and Tim
pointed out Disqus & Patheos do not seem able to handle 800+ comments.I will do that in a
reply to this post although I suspect these posts will be censored soon. The main thing is that
most of us feel like weve added enough to this conversation if Nadia is not comfortable adding
her thoughts.
Reply Share
CurtisMSP > Kandace
21 hours ago
That is not what I said, and nobody asked you to speak for those who have spoken for
themselves. Your attempt to re-frame what is already established, documented fact,
while ommitting the most relevant facts, is pathetic.
5
Reply Share
Guest > CurtisMSP
20 hours ago
Kandace was self anointed and self appointed to be the final analysis. Beyond
bizarre on the part of Team NPD. Not a word of mention regarding the abuses or
the 22 page $4000 psychological evaluation which detailed the full ugly dirty
story. 800 comments later the truth remains. Abuses occur even today and yet
"leaders" like Nadia are not only mute but overtly supportive of an active
unrepentant abuser with a very serious diagnosis.
5
Reply Share
Kandace > Kandace
a day ago
SUMMARY REQUESTED BY SOME HAVING TROUBLE WITH DISQUS: Some local

commenters raised questions about Julies parentss oil money, her senatorial candidate
brother in laws net worth, and her standard of living, which they suggested undermined
claims she had been driven into poverty. Most concurred these claims of wealth were
irrelevant to alleged abuse. MichaelOP, an event sponsor contacted by Tim WilsonBrown, shared the result of his orgs research which he claimed among other things
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found Julie and Tony filed an equal amount of motions & Tony had never been charged
w/a crime or w/failure to pay child support while Julie did have a criminal charge.Julie
reminded Michael she has alleged police bias in that arrest due to Tonys former stint as
a chaplain He also noted that the courts felt Tony was safe enough that they awarded
him partial custody so he has the kids on weekends, which he claimed they wouldnt
have done if there was credible reason to believe Tony was an abuser. Julie admitted
going to a Mexico resort recently after people donated for her legal fees, but
emphasized she traveled cheaply. Dee from TWW also clarified at least one donor had
specified they wanted Julie to relax and do something for herself. The consensus
among everyone was that single moms deserve vacations. :) Julie also explained that
she leased one car and is trying to sell the second car she acquired for the nanny she
had last year but no longer employs due to financial diculty.
There were concerns about anonymous commenters: both
concerns about their fear of posting in what they perceive to be a hostile climate and
concerns about whether some might have impure motives or unrevealed connections.
While some anonymous commenters identified themselves more freely over email,
George and Drea raised the most questions from users overall. BB was also questioned
for his tone, lack of tact, and for using what Tim pointed out was not a given name and
others called him a sockpuppet. It was brought up several times that there might be
fake commenters infiltrating the conversation
due to the number of new and/or private Disqus profiles being used. Others cautioned it
was unfair to try to dismiss those who disagree with you by claiming they must be all
fake and therefore not valid. A couple people also questioned my identity and asked me
to provide personal information beyond what Id already shared and I declined to do so.
David Hayward briefly entered the conversation and clarified that he does not consider
himself a supporter of Julie, but a supporter of safe spaces. He encouraged others that
Julie should be able to identify however she wants. After saying this, David was asked
to comment on the profit he makes when he asks people to buy his artwork or
subscribe to his online church in his many posts about Julies allegations. He has not
yet responded to that.
Several people tried to guide the conversation away from
investigating the people who post allegations often. Others were concerned this group
was then trying to silence question askers. Ultimately for most of this thread, those who
opposed investigating allegation-posters did arm the right of everyone
present to ask questions they felt were relevant. There were times of exception
especially when Julie and BB were arguing back and forth when people on both sides
tried to silence others as it admittedly grew less civil. Julie had identified she was from
Edina several times, but clarified she lived in a section of Edina near government
housing. Later she voiced concern that people might know where she lived and said she
would contact the police and the web host to have any information related to this
removed. Julie and an unnamed Guest also posted a link to a claim on another site
where an anonymous person claimed
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that just an hour after meeting Tony for the first time at an event last year, Tony allegedly
said he wanted to murder his ex-wife.
Julie identified herself at times as Guest and at times as Julie, but she explained her
logic for doing this was so the comments could not be used against her as she felt the
post could be part of an organized setup to gather information for a defamation suit. Id
like to thank Leslie Lea who calmly entered as the comments were heating up and
asserted it was headed in the wrong direction. Julie voiced her appreciation
for Leslie and shared about her faith and how her friend had a prophetic dream about
how Tony would drive their family into darkness which Julie believed has come true.
With this, I am signing o and releasing myself from my original intentions at the advice
of others here. I wish you all joy and peace and healing.
Reply Share
Ragnarok > Kandace
4 hours ago
Assuming this is actually Tony speaking, it's a wonder to me that no one has
mentioned that in addition to content (such as comments and other published
matter) being legally discoverable, IP addresses are also discoverable. So if
someone wanted to try to submit or subpoena any of these comments for Tony's
side, Julie could merely stand up in court all on her own and request that IP
addresses be submitted as well. That way, the court can see exactly who sent
these comments and from where.
Anonymity online is a fiction when it comes to producing documents and the like
under court order. Just saying.
Reply Share
Annie Banannie > Kandace
17 hours ago
Oh wait, and now I have to down vote it for it's resurrection of the "Julie as
unstable" narrative. I know you didn't say so I'm so many words, but you
carefully curated you summarized points to make her look crazy.
So yeah, I'm assuming adavit. A handy synopsis for whatever is coming next.
Another attempt to flip custody? Sue for damages? Lost wages? Who knows.
"Kandace", you are playing a game, likely for your lawyers' fee, with someone
else's actual life. Regardless of how successful you may be, you are a bad
person. You make te world a little uglier and a little less safe. You, yourself, cause
harm. You could choose to do dierent with your skills and education, but you
don't. Maybe someday you will. Until then you are complicit in the abuse of
every victim of domestic violence, because you facilitate a culture that shames
and silences them. You. Are. Complicit. You know better, but you choose harm.
You. Are. Complicit.
3
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Reply Share
Annie Banannie > Kandace
17 hours ago
I'm liking this for its epic arrogance and pomposity, spin and evasion. Is that your
summary or your adavit?
1
Reply Share
KT Pridgen > Kandace
21 hours ago
Thanks, Tony. I mean, none of us needed this as we have followed the situation
from the beginning and are pretty much aware of everything you gathered in your
"investigation" here. *eye roll*
3
Reply Share
Guest > Kandace
a day ago
No one requested your summary.

3
Reply Share
Kandace > Kandace
a day ago
I do not intend to continue posting as it probably brings out unhealthiness in me to stay

in this dialogue too long, but it is okay to continue to email me. Im going to take a break
from this for a while, but will get to those in a few days.
Reply Share
Guest > Kandace
a day ago
I don't think anyone has emailed you. Why not post the emails?
1
Reply Share
Kandace > Kandace
a day ago
You are of course able to scroll down (for miles!) and read all of these comments
for yourself to see if you feel this was a fair re-telling and I encourage you to do
so.

Guest
Reply Share
a day ago

disturbing.
3
Reply Share
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Disqus Comments
Leslie Lea
10/04/2015 19:49
a day ago
Well, I can only do my part. I for one, am going to boycott all "Christian books". The Bible alone is good
enough for me. God speaks to me and The Holy Spitit guides me through The Word, that is all I need.
1
Reply Share
Guest > Leslie Lea
a day ago
The Holy Spirit absolutely led this going viral. It was time. David Hayward was used and
courageous enough to refuse to delete my story even though he received a plethora of
legal threats from my abuser and his enablers. They were stunned because for years
their threats kept my story quiet. Not this time. The Holy Spirit is having her say. I would
like nothing more than for some beauty to come from this ugliness. I am waiting for that.
I know and have been contacted by other abuse victims who have said my story gave
them courage. I helped one woman get her and her 5 kids to a shelter after she read my
story so I would like beauty and good fruit to come to bear.
4
Guest
Reply Share
a day ago
Good night, Leslie. Thank you for putting the focus where it should have been but strayed. If
God were involved in this...it would not look like the mess it does. The mental illness is a major
part of the problem too but the enablers refusing to stop him are also driving this. I hold the
truth and I will keep speaking.
Reply Share
Leslie Lea > Guest
a day ago
Sweet dreams, Julie. Praying for Peace, truth and justice.and for God's name to be
glorified.
1
Reply Share
Guest > Leslie Lea
a day ago
Thank you! I am a weary soldier but I need to remember whose child I am and
that the Holy Spirit will move if I remain faithful.
1
Leslie Lea
Reply Share
a day ago
I suggest that we not be controlled , not be helpless and not be enablers. Let us commit to not
buying any Christian book by any author for six months, also commit to not going to any
Christian conference for six months. Even homeschooling conferences. Instead let us spend
our time and money on doing what Jesus did. Visiting the homeless shelters, women's
shelters, jails, etc, etc. we may learn something and we may be blessed. Let us stop spending
money on foolishness written by people who are in it for the money. Let's stop being sheep.
Sorry about the preaching.
3
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Reply Share
CurtisMSP > Leslie Lea
a day ago
Instead of six months, I say forever. Get together with some people in your
neighborhood and use the money you used to spend on celebrity Christian books to
support your local community instead. A much better investment that will bring huge
dividends, instead of stroking someone's inflated ego.
1
Reply Share
Guest > Leslie Lea
a day ago
That is really what it would take but sadly fragile egos love the hype and groupie brand
they have served up. It is a brand and they have consumers. Very reputable institutions
investigated my story. They interviewed me several times and read all my documents.
Then they said, "No more." And dumped him. I have a great deal of respect for those
men and women who listened, prayed and then acted. I can't even get to first base the
listening part with Nadia or Rachel who claim to have done "due diligence" and claim to
be an advocate. FRAUDS.
1
Guest
Reply Share
a day ago
I held tight to the dream that God would move the mountain and it would be good and peaceful
for my kids. I understand now that because of the diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder
with sadistic traits that will never happen. I truly must pay for speaking the truth. I am the
narcissistic target and his life obsession is taking me down. I said it to him and I'll say it
here....he's got the wrong marine. I think God wired me with a little extra justice gene and I will
call out abuse wherever and when ever I see it and loudly. It is doubly toxic when it is from
alleged representatives of God.
1
Guest
Reply Share
a day ago
That is my question...where is God in this? Every year at Easter time for my kids I send a letter.
An olive branch begging for peace and forgiveness. Begging for the litigation to stop. I used to
ask him to repent but that is out of the question. This year I didn't bother. He has surrounded
himself with enablers and he cannot hear God or anynone but himself speaking into a
microphone most likely to adoring fans. For my children I have this dream of peace and civility.
She is worse than he....she doesn't even know me and treats me like I am a leper and in front
of my children. It is the farthest thing from good or holy. It's evil.
1
Leslie Lea
Reply Share
a day ago
Matthew7:23. Look it up. I feel like this blog is becoming like Geraldo. Where is Christ.? Is there
room for the Holy Spirit to work? I am disgusted. Where is provision for the widow and
orphans? Who is laying down their life for the brethren? If it is not about Christ it is worthless..
So you men and women of God, where is your heart and your soul. Geez, this stu should be
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Christianity 101 to all of you. Why aren't you getting it?

2
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Guest > Leslie Lea
a day ago
I used to ask him repeatedly, "If this is of God then where is the fruit? There is nothing
but rotten fruit in our marriage." He would just board the next plane and often to Dallas,
Texas where she lived.
Reply Share
Living Liminal > Leslie Lea
a day ago
It is dicult to get a man to understand something, when his salary [power, prestige,
reputation...] depends on his not understanding it.
2
Reply Share
Guest > Living Liminal
a day ago
It was the money and corruption that ruined him. My friend is prophetic. She had
a dream that his pursuits of Emergent "were a darkness and that it will harm you
and your family." Wiser words were never spoken. He told her in a rage, "Barb,
you have no idea what you are talking about!" Actually, she did. I tried to speak
truth into his life. I knew he was going down the wrong path. He would not listen.
No one was going to take him from the spotlight.
Reply Share
Living Liminal > Guest
a day ago
So sad :(
Reply Share
Guest > Living Liminal
a day ago
my children bear the sin of their father. He refuses to repent and is stuck
in revenge mode. It will take a miracle to break this cycle. The enablers
could help like Doug Pagitt but they carry on and cash the checks.

Guest
Reply Share
a day ago
This is the best Progressive Christianity has to oer. This...my outrage has and will always be
how dare you use the name of Christ. You don't get to literally throw people to the ground and
act like it never happened. I want Christian leaders who are held accountable for bad behavior.
This was on Naked Pastors blog today. YES a person who states a death threat is who you are
enabling.
I have been following
this situation since last September, but have been very hesitant to
share one of the main reasons why I've believed Julie since she first
posted on NP's story last September. I have friends and colleagues who
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support ToJo. I don't know what the consequences will be if this gets
traced back to me, but here goes: I met ToJo last year at a conference.
Within about an hour of meeting him he made comments to me about wanting
to 'murder his ex-wife' and wishing he had never had children. I knew
nothing of his personal life at the time, but I remember being really
weirded out by the intensity with which he said these things. He did not
sound 'jokey.' It was disturbing. I handed my hosting responsibilities
over to other conference volunteers after that and kept my distance from
him. Even so, I had held out the possibility that I might pursue a
partnership with JoPa on a future conference, but realized in January,
when ToJo began his retaliation against Julie, that I could not, in good
conscience do so. I reached out to Julie privately two months ago to
let her know and to oer my prayers and support. One side note: I have
also been asked to provide major financial support to a local NBW
appearance in 2016. I intend to speak to the organizers of that event
about withdrawing my pledge and to tell them why. Sorry for attempting
to be anonymous about this, I hope you all understand.
2
Reply Share
No_6 > Guest
21 hours ago
O_O

Annie Banannie
Reply Share
a day ago
Every time I want to take a Michael type seriously, there's a Kandace type, or even worse a BB
type, who goes largely unchallenged by the entire tony supporting contingent.
Really no one supporting Julie has acted that threatening or nasty, none of us have even been
particularly sneaky other than not always using our real names. Sccl is what it has always been:
raucously, raunchily, critical of those who harm in Jesus name. Julie is as she has always been,
passionate, over sharing, fairly consistent.
Kandace is trying to whip up something where there is nothing. BB is outright threatening. But
yep, some detail quibbles are where this story is at, certainly not 5-10 fake accounts oozing out
of the woodwork to slam, harass, and doxx Julie.
6
Leslie Lea
Reply Share
a day ago
This is REALLY grievous to the Christian Community. Those who are bullies need to stop
SINNING. If you are really Christians , you should get it. Christian leaders should stop this.
1
Reply Share
Guest > Leslie Lea
a day ago
Leslie, 7 years ago I went to the Christian leaders for help. The aair, abuse, "crazy
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campaign" all of it. NOT ONE would help me. They shunned and silenced me. This
display by BigBrowner and a slightly more subtle Kandace is what I have endured since
2008. Why? MONEY! Book deals, minor xian celebrity status. They all endorse each
other books and go to the same events. It is the antithesis of Christ-like and yet it goes
unchecked. A diagnosed NPD is controlling the narrative however I refuse to shut up
and will keep speaking the truth forever.
1
Guest
Reply Share
a day ago
There are the private emails and messages that I get but they know that if they speak out
publicly they'll never work in this town again so to speak. Very incestuous. And, like the
anonymous person on David Haywards bog today who said he listened as my abuser as he
said he wished I was murdered. To his followers at a conference! YEP! This is the best
progressive Christianity can serve up? No thanks.
Reply Share
Danica
a day ago
WHat I also cannot believe is how Rachel Held Evans, Peter Rollins, Jay Bakker, et al, could
watch this go down and not be backing away slowly saying, "Yeah, never mind, we TOTALLY
believe you now, Julie."
3
Reply Share
Guest > Danica
a day ago
They are all interdependent on book deals, events and have the same publishers! I must
be wiped out to save the empire.

Danica
Reply Share
a day ago
I cannot believe a pastor would let something like this go down on her blog. This is
shepherding the sheep? This is leading them to green pastures so their souls can be
restored??
4
Reply Share
Guest > Danica
18 hours ago
Nadia is in on it. This thread is the nest exhibit for the next lawsuit. And when it is I will
speak out on that. This is what an NPD does....beats you down. Ironically, it has had the
reverse eect and made me stronger with every failed legal attack. The truth sets me
free.
1
Reply Share
Guest > Danica
a day ago
I have ZERO respect for Nadia. She is a cult of personality. Schtick and fame and when
an abuse victim is in her face saying, "Please, help." She hangs up!
1
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Reply Share
Danica > Guest
a day ago
Julie I'm sending you an email. :)
Reply Share
Guest > Danica
18 hours ago
she is allowing it because she is in on it. this will be exhibit A in the next
failed defamation run. Watch....and I will report it back and make sure it
goes viral.
1
Leslie Lea
Reply Share
a day ago
I think everyone who presumes to write Christian books should go on a self imposed 6 month
moratorium and get well with their soul. Bring Christ back into the convo. If there us never
another book written or never another conference, so be it, let's change the game plan here
and make it about loving God and loving each other.
4
Reply Share
Guest > Leslie Lea
a day ago
The celebrity fame ruined my ex husband. Ruined him! He was Godly at one time....he
lost it and sold his soul. I called him out and that is why I have been his narcissistic
target ever since.
1
Guest
Reply Share
a day ago
I'm fairly convinced BB and Kandace are the same they both tried to slam SCCL and they both
spoke of conspiracy and one logs o and then they other magically appears. I am further
confident as my lawyer told me that Simon Troutman his lawyer is trying to build a case for
"lost wages" thus Kandace's over the top obvious questions about that issue. This runs deep
and wide and tragically an NPD will NEVER give up. Oh, no he will fight this until there is
nothing but scorched earth. I did call the police and will make a report tomorrow bringing in my
laptop. Using my personal information and my 80 year old widowed mothers maiden
name...that's low even for an NPD and his enablers. My address? Seriously, you people are
pond scum as my dearly departed father coined his ex son in law.
2
Guest
Reply Share
a day ago
Where is angry Drea? She was fun.

Reply Share

Guest
a day ago
Sadly, this is progressive Christianity's finest at work interacting with a survivor of various
abuses. THIS is the best they've got.
Page 27 of 196
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10/04/2015 19:49
Reply Share
Danica
a day ago
Waiting for another of Tony's ghost profiles to post in 3 ... 2 ...

1
Leslie Lea
Reply Share
a day ago
Stinks, BB
Reply Share
Leslie Lea
a day ago
Hey, I am just a humble tax accountant who is grouchy at the end it tax season. I have also
been a Christian for a long time and have the gift of discernment. And what I discern here
stinjsm BB
1
Guest
Reply Share
a day ago
What lie? It's one small question BB but you can't seem to answer it.
Reply Share
Leslie Lea
a day ago
BB, what is your skin in this game? You certainly aren't acting very respectful. Or Chrustlike.
How does this profit you?
Reply Share
Guest > Leslie Lea
a day ago
THIS is what I came up against for 7 years. This treatment that is so unGodly it is
unfathomable. Nadia our "host" hung up on me and Rachel blocked me. THIS is who
these people are. It is disgusting and they truly are frauds.

BigBrowner
Reply Share
a day ago
Danica, someone called you out earlier as an SCCL groupie. Check the connections. Read the
thread. There's stu to be found here. That's it. I'm out.
1
Reply Share
Guest > BigBrowner
a day ago
Out? Why? I'm wondering what you think is a lie? Calling me a liar I take VERY serious.
What exactly do you claim I lied about? Go....I'm waiting. I asked you that many times
and yet you won't ask the simple question. What did I lie about BigBrowner?
Reply Share
Danica > BigBrowner
a day ago
YOU called me out as an SCCL groupie, Tony, under one of the many ghost accounts
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you've created for yourself here. And I'm proud to hang out at SCCL - it's Where All The
Women Are At, after all. (tm)
3
Danica
Reply Share
a day ago
Hey Tony, I mean BigBrowner --- check out what someone is saying about you. It's not
flattering. I hope Courtney and any kids in the house are safe right now, because you seem to
be spiraling into a narcissistic rage.
http://www.nakedpastor.com/201...
2
Reply Share
Guest > Danica
a day ago
Stephanie Drury has more guts than any of these fake advocates. She is what I want in
a Christian leader. A person with the courage to say, "NO MORE." David Hayward too.
These fake leaders only interested in preserving the next speaking engagement are a
terrible disappointment.
1
Reply Share
Guest > Danica
a day ago
I REALLY think it is him too. He did this when married. NPD would absolutely do this
and the smoke and mirror and refusal to address fact and abuse is a dead ringer.

Guest
Reply Share
a day ago
This clown knows where I live. Because my abuser and Nadia have allowed this. THESE are the
Godly people leading the progressive church.
Reply Share
BigBrowner > Guest
a day ago
Again, what are you talking about? I have no idea where you live. You are the one who
mentioned the Edina police in like two dozen comments as anyone who can scroll down
adn screencap right now can see. You're the one who just said you live by section 8
houseing. Those are the only clues anyone has. But again, you wouldn't comment much
here because you think this website is part of the conspiracy. But you don't, do you?
1
Leslie Lea
Reply Share
a day ago
BB , you are getting abusive

3
Reply Share
BigBrowner > Leslie Lea
a day ago
But it's not abusive to destroy lives with false allegations and then try to scare people
away from asking questions? Maybe these people should have done their homework
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before they started talking up these allegations everywhere to get more clicks to their
sites or sell more or their artwork. Where were you then?
1
Reply Share
Caryn LeMur > BigBrowner
17 hours ago
Big Browner: allegations, by definition, are neither true nor false.

A person hosting a website is not responsible for the postings of others in US
Law. [They are, of course, responsible for their own comments.]
The key questions become these:
1. Is both the accused and accuser allowed to post?
2. Are people allowed to use their names and online names with equality? Or, do
we force some to use their real names, and not all? Or, do we block 'guest'
names for some, but not all?
3. We can moderate for coarse language, but again, need to carefully ensure no
prejudice in our moderating.
As a result, most moderators will allow all to post, erase nothing, and allow all
guest accounts. Moderators are free to enter the conversation at any time.
I would encourage you to do your homework on the Digital Law website.
Sincerely; Caryn
Reply Share
Alan Molineaux > BigBrowner
19 hours ago
Shame on you for the suggestion. You have no idea of the good done by David
to people who have suered abuse from powerful people.
Reply Share
nakedpastor > BigBrowner
a day ago
Seriously? That's all you have on me is that as an artist I provide it for people to
purchase and acquire? My blog nakedpastor makes NO money. I've made sure
of that. But I'm allowed to sell my art. So... BigBrowner... here's a sincere
gesture... pick out ANY print you want from my shop and I will ship it to you
entirely for free. As a gift. Just to help you perhaps see that I'm not in this for the
money. Take your pick.
1
Reply Share
Guest > BigBrowner
a day ago
They did their homework and that is why legal threats to delete your blog or else
do not work anymore. They did for years but NO MORE. I will talk freely and
truthfully until my last breath.
Reply Share
Leslie Lea > BigBrowner
a day ago
WTF?
Page 30 of 196
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10/04/2015 19:49
Reply Share
Danica > Leslie Lea
a day ago
Someone has hurt feels about the naked pastor

1
Reply Share
Leslie Lea > Leslie Lea
a day ago
Rotfl
Reply Share
Guest > BigBrowner
a day ago
They did! And after reading all of my documents they support me. Unlike Team
NPD that has a 1/4 of select cherry picked court docs from one court. The 3/4
tells the story. You can choose to align with an abuser. Others who actually DID
do due diligence like large prestigious institutions did and then they made the
choice to dump him.
Reply Share
Guest > BigBrowner
a day ago
What allegation is false? I KEEP asking you that one simple question.

BigBrowner
Reply Share
a day ago
If all this gets taken down by Patheos, I suggest that you screencap everything and send it to
reporters now. This story is blown open.
Reply Share
KT Pridgen > BigBrowner
20 hours ago
Oh, FFS.
1
Leslie Lea
Reply Share
a day ago
I meant BB
Reply Share
Leslie Lea
a day ago
This whole blog is getting crazy. Bob, you sound like a big bully.
1
Reply Share
BigBrowner > Leslie Lea
a day ago
Sometimes it's time for someone to stand up to the lies.
Reply Share
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Leslie Lea > BigBrowner
a day ago
So who are you really?
Reply Share
Guest > BigBrowner
a day ago
AGAIN what lie? I have answered every single thing. AGAIN what lie? ANSWER.
You seem to never answer.

Guest
Reply Share
a day ago
I called the police and reported Nadia Bolz Weber and Big Browner and obviously my abuser
for providing my personal information like my make and model of my vehicle and where I lease
it....OMG! You people sicken me! Exploiting my personal information like my HOME on the
internet. My abuser CLEARLY gave you this information which speaks volumes to the depths of
desperation he will go to smoke and mirrors the ugly truth of his diagnosis, sadistic traits, aair,
abuse and cover up. BB? Why don't you want to chat word one about those important issues?!
Instead you want to recycle yesterdays smear campaign and attempt to discredit the victim. I
didn't know I was on trial? I'll be here all night. Next?
2
Reply Share
BigBrowner > Guest
a day ago
I am sure the police know your number by now. I bet they'll be right over to arrest
people based on your credible as always allegations.
Reply Share
Guest > BigBrowner
a day ago
I'm sorry what? What allegation of my abuse is false? I think I have asked you
that very simple question 7 times. What is false BigBrowner?

BigBrowner
Reply Share
a day ago
All Julie's supporters have been saying this whole time that Nadia was going to delete
comments, but look who is actually going to contact Patheos according to her comment. It's
Julie. Another hole. "Look they're silencing us! Quick, call Patheos and ask them to take down
the information about Julie being related to a Senator with a networth in the tens of millions or
being from an oil famiy or living in a ritzy neighborhood or going on vacations while asking
people to donate to her legal costs or filing motions when she was saying it was Tony filing
motions. Give me a break.
Reply Share
Guest > BigBrowner
a day ago
I never said Nadia would delete. I am confident my abuser and Nadia are right here
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active and in real time. AGAIN and I hate to say this BB but either you are stupid or
refusing to listen! This reminds me EXACTLY of my abuser. Here we go again for a 4th or
5th time. As I refuted and shot down your lies yesterday I will again and every day you
post it. Where is Kandace? she logged out and you logged in...okay...got it.
1. My brother in law is not the senator. Al Franken is. AGAIN how does that make my
story NOT true? AGAIN your logic....is illogical.
2. Tens of millions? WTF? Now you are just throwing out numbers. You have no idea
what you are talking about.
3. Ritzy neighborhood? I live adjacent to a highway and section 8 housing my my
backyard. My abuser told my kids, "Its ghetto."
4. People helped me file a motion to get my son who was unlawfully taken January 19. I
had to drop it because I owe 20k
Reply Share
Guest > BigBrowner
a day ago
Nadia is in on it dummy!

Guest
Reply Share
a day ago
I am calling the Edina police right now. My abuser has provided BB with my address and
personal information about my mother and brother in law. THIS is what Nadia Bolz Weber is
hosting and not saying a word. I am also contacting Patheos. You people are scary!!
1
Reply Share
BigBrowner > Guest
a day ago
I hope the police read the entire thread to see who they're dealing with to. That might be
exactly what this case needs.

Guest
Reply Share
a day ago
I'll repeat.....BB? Do you think it is okay to abuse women?
Reply Share
BigBrowner > Guest
a day ago
I think it's okay to call out women when they lie. No one can tell if you were abused
because we have to sort through the dozen lies and that's just what has come out in the
last 24 hours to figure out if any part of your conspiracy theory could possibly still be
true after you take away all the things you said that aren't true.
Reply Share
Guest > BigBrowner
a day ago
What lie? Name it now.
Reply Share
Page 33 of 196
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Guest
10/04/2015 19:49
a day ago
Are you afraid? But you have that big scary bull dog avatar? I will answer and I have each and
every question. however, I am answering and then you ask the same question. It's taxing but I
will be patient.
Reply Share
BigBrowner > Guest
a day ago
SPINDLETOP 2. The Phelan family oil well. Go on Zillow like that one guy said and
check out Edina. Look it up, people.
1
Reply Share
Guest > BigBrowner
a day ago
Yes, my great grandfather sold his grocery store and put in money for an oil drill.
It hit oil. How does that make me NOT living below the poverty line?
Reply Share
Guest > Guest
a day ago
I already several times actual went through this with you and Michael
yesterday but I will go slower for you.....I love in a home owned by my
mother. again HOW does that NOT make my story true and accurate with
all corroborating evidence? ANSWER....let me guess.....you won't. PLUS
how SICK my abuser supplied you my address I am calling the cops on
that. No, seriously I am right now.
Reply Share
BigBrowner > Guest
a day ago
The part I loved the best is when you said you went to MEXICO recently
after asking all these people to donate for you but you justified it by
saying it was only a 3 STAR RESORT and you bought airline tickets from
a cheap airline. SOUNDS LIKE POVERTY TO ME.
Reply Share
Guest > BigBrowner
a day ago
People on poverty vacation idiot. AGAIN how did my truth NOT happen
because I went to Mexico? Your logic is really lame.
Reply Share
Guest > BigBrowner
a day ago
I didn't justify shit. It was a dumpy 3 star resort because that is what I
could aord. My friend gave me a week. ONLY my abuser knew I went to
Mexico so you are either HIM or in his pocket.
Reply Share
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Guest > BigBrowner
a day ago
I never asked one human to donate one dime. Dee Parsons commented
yesterday IDIOT how happy she was and that the main donor hoped I
could get a vacation. NEXT?
Reply Share
BigBrowner > Guest
a day ago
EVERYONE READ YOU COMING ON TWITTER OVER AND OVER AND

SAYING YOU COULDNT AFFORD A LAWYER AND SHARING THE LINK.
MORE THAN ONCE. WE HEARD YOU SAY YOU WERE IN POVERTY.
TONY DROVE YOU THERE. OR WAS THAT GUEST OR JMAC WHO SAID
THAT?
Reply Share
Ragnarok > BigBrowner
4 hours ago
The more you rant, the more convinced I am that you are actually Tony. At
first, I just assumed you were an asshole. Now, I'm pretty sure you're the
asshole in question.

Guest
Reply Share
a day ago
BB? What do you think I lied about? I have a rich relative so I was not abused? Is that your
logic?
Reply Share
BigBrowner
a day ago
"I'll pretend anyone who says anything against me is part of the abuse so people are afriad to
say anything." said Julie or Jmac6301 or Guest.
Reply Share
Guest > BigBrowner
a day ago
It is guest....do I need to explain that for a 4th time? really?

Guest
Reply Share
a day ago
where is Kandace? Drea? Or do you need to log out first?

2
Guest
Reply Share
a day ago
BB? Do you think it is okay to abuse women?
Reply Share
BigBrowner > Guest
a day ago
I would ask you if you think it's okay to make false allegations and run around trying to
Page 35 of 196
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scare people who ask questions about it, but I think we know that's perfectly okay with
you. ANYONE READING, read all the comments. Anyone who comes on here this many
times trying to get other people to stop asking questions is hiding something and once
you start reading, you'll see exactly what it is.
1
BigBrowner
Reply Share
a day ago
READ THE COMMENT THREAD and judge for yourself. Don't let Julie scare you away with her
dozens of comments and fear tactics. Use your own judgment. No sane person is going to
read everything that has come out here and all the holes that have been exposed and Julie's
change of identity every fifteen minutes and her conspiracy theories and think "That sounds
completely true." YOU ARE DOING YOURSELF NO FAVORS and EVERYONE knows it.
1
Reply Share
AnnieOly > BigBrowner
a day ago
As someone who has read about this story in passing on TWW and Naked Pastor, and
thinks RHE and NBW have had and still have valuable things to say, and as someone
who has never commented on this subject and doesn't claim to know 'the answer' after
reading through much of this thread I am willing to say this: you, 'BB', come across like
one arrogant, classless, nasty SOB. You are not doing your side any favors whatsoever.
3
Reply Share
KT Pridgen > AnnieOly
a day ago
I agree. Time to switch back to Kandace, Tony. BigBrowner isn't winning you any
points.
3
Reply Share
BigBrowner > KT Pridgen
a day ago
I can't figure out if you people really believe Julie, if you are Julie, or if you
have just been HAD that bad. I hope to GOD for your sake that you
actually started looking into some of the holes blown into these
allegations.
1
Reply Share
Danica > BigBrowner
a day ago
Don't you dare use God's name in this Tony. You've already blasphemed
Him so many times.
3
Guest > BigBrowner
Reply Share
a day ago
you just called yourself insane.
Reply Share
Page 36 of 196
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Guest > BigBrowner
a day ago
Fear tactics? I am asking to engage you directly. O line if your wish. Change my identity? no.
just switched it to guest. Go on? What else?
Reply Share
BigBrowner > Guest
a day ago
If you really thought there was some big conspiracy and people were collecting
this, you would know that people would be screencapping your every move. You
DONT really think that. You're using that to scare people away from questioning
you. You are full of it.
Reply Share
Guest > BigBrowner
a day ago
Actually, BB. My abuser uses every word. He shows up in court as

recently as two weeks ago with reams of paper crying slander,
defamation, sue her! so, fact....not conspiracy. He lost BTW. In fact the
Judge said, "no credibility."
1
Guest
Reply Share
a day ago
I wonder why BB won't engage me in dialogue. He does his drive by lies and I refite each and
every one and then he runs away. BB? Let's chat. See, the thing about the truth is...it helps you
be incredibly confident and you have peace that you have nothing to hide. I have a wealthy
brother in law so I must be rich too?! Are you hearing your own silly logic?
Reply Share
BigBrowner > Guest
a day ago
Everyone here can see I have engaged you at every turn. That is if you keep your name
Julie and stop flipping your identity. We get it. We heard you trying to hold your story
together. Your mom is Colleen Phelan. Everyone knows. She bought you the house you
live in rent-free. Chat about anything you want. People are going to scroll down and
read Michael's comments and those people from your city and the other guy who
looked into it. It doesn't add up. It's smelled fishy for a while, but now it's out.
Reply Share
wordvixen > BigBrowner
13 hours ago
No, you have not engaged her at every turn. You take everything we've said
to/about Tony and the sock puppet accounts, including yours, and flip it around
to Julie. I still don't believe that Michael is actually real, though someone that I
know *is* real believes he is, so I'll not argue that point.
I'm not sure why you keep screaming that anyone who reads the whole thread
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10/04/2015 19:49
will side with you/against Julie. Many of us have read the whole thread, and all
that's becoming clearer to me is how very much Tony is still trying to control
every tiny bit of Julie's life despite 7 years passing. Unless Courtney really enjoys
this kind of vindictive streak (which, maybe she does, I rather enjoy the drama
myself even though I'd rather see things cleared up so Julie and the kids could
get a bit a peace), I can't imagine that she's super thrilled about being married to
a man who is completely obsessed with his ex-wife. I know that if I were married
to a man who is this obsessed with his ex for ANY reason, I'd be seriously
considering leaving.
You keep making "Ahah! Caught you!" comments regarding Julie, and for the
most part are either arguing with her directly or trying to convince everyone else
to hate her. This leads me to believe that either you are Tony, or that you really
have a very poor reading comprehension. Your fight with Julie seems oddly
personal, so I'm going with either Tony or one of his buddies, but, maybe you're
just an asshole. Too hard to tell without more concrete info.
Reply Share
Guest > BigBrowner
a day ago
flipping my identity. I will explain this now for a 3rd time. I switched it to guest.
Understand?
Reply Share
BigBrowner > Guest
a day ago
I think we all understand.

Guest
Reply Share
a day ago
BB, this is Nadia's blog. Of course it is hostile territory. The woman hung up on me when I
called her after being physically abused. HUNG UP. You are an enabler. I asked what you
thought about a man throwing his wife to the ground in front of 3 kids and you want to talk
about my wealthy great grandfather?
3
Reply Share
BigBrowner
a day ago
I'm going to lay this out for everyone here and I don't care who comes on and shoves back, I
ain't budging. People came on here yesterday asking questions about the trolls who are talking
these allegations up every time they get the chance. Who are they? Do they even know Julie? It
went south FAST and lots of stu came out about Julie. She's from an o-the-charts wealthy
family living no where near the way she let on. She's filed as many motions as her husband but
conveniently told everyone he was litigating her to death. The list goes on. Do yourself a favor
people. Watch who comments after me and who joins in with Julie right now. Go see who
they're connected to. Oh the trolls? YOU DON'T SAY. Read all the comments in this thread and
you'll see what's got them all worked up.
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Reply Share
Guest > BigBrowner
a day ago
I'm not worked up. I am busting lies right and left. You are ridiculous to assume you
know what is in my bank account. I assure you it isn't pretty. FURTHER what the hell
does that have to do with the fact that the abuser you are enabling had an aair, tried to
cover it up, threw me to the ground and was police escorted out of the home?!
ANSWER.
1
Reply Share
BigBrowner > Guest
a day ago
Wave your hand, turn on anyone who even comes on here and asks a polite
question. Go ahead. And meanwhile every word you write trying to turn people
o this will just make them go and see exactly what's got you this determined to
see what's happened in this thread that has got your running 90 miles an hour.
1
Reply Share
CurtisMSP > BigBrowner
a day ago
Good cop / bad cop, right?

3
Reply Share
KT Pridgen > CurtisMSP
a day ago
I want them to converse with each other. I like the idea of Tony frantically logging
in and out of Disqus accounts to try to convince us he's not both of these
characters. :P
3
Reply Share
wordvixen > KT Pridgen
13 hours ago
I'm actually surprised that he isn't using multiple devices to do just that.
Or having Courtney log in as someone just to switch up the voices a bit.
Reply Share
Guest > KT Pridgen
a day ago
I know. I was married to him for 12 years NOTHING and I mean NOTHING
worked him up more than a disparaging word on the internet. He made
me go after Ken Silva because he busted his twisted theology. He sits
back and sends his pawns to fight for him. An NPD can not handle the
slightest criticism so you can imagine my holding the ugly truth must be
destroyed.
Reply Share
Guest > Guest
a day ago
One of life's great ironies is that Ken Silva and I became close friends. He
Page 39 of 196
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would call and email about once a month just to pray and check in on me
and the kids. When the two marriages crap surfaced he really exposed it
for the pathology coming after the theology that it was to justify an aair.
Rest in peace, Ken.
Reply Share
BigBrowner > Guest
a day ago
If I were you, I would try to say things that actually matter Julie or Jmac or
guest or whoever you are in this minute before you change again.
Someone needs to call up some of the reporters who have been covering
the Rolling Stones bit about how sources failed to verify a story before
putting it out there and destroying lives. I'd love to hear if these people
are all so sure that what they're passing on is the truth? In the back of
their heads are they wondering about you and still commenting on here
after being warned? I bet with as hot as this is in the news right now
people would love to hear them explain what lengths they went to close
the gaps.
Reply Share
Guest > BigBrowner
a day ago
I am who I am. I make it say guest so my abuser can't AGAIN try and sue
me. Even though he just lost in court two weeks ago. Or are you not
looking at civil court records? Did my abuser conveniently only supply
you with cherry picked out of context family court links without any
professional reports or evaluations. Thought so. TRUTH sets me free, BB.
What else? BB? Do you comprehend the magnitude of an NPD diagnosis
with "sadistic traits?" Didn't think so.
Reply Share
BigBrowner > Guest
a day ago
WHAT PLANET ARE YOU LIVING ON? Every other breath you identify
yourself. How is changing your name back and forth going to do
anything? AGAIN, you obviously don't believe there's a conspiracy theory
and someone is collecting information or you wouldn't be on here doing
this SH-T.
1
Reply Share
Guest > BigBrowner
a day ago
BB. I have asked you what matters. What do you think about a woman
whose husband has an aair and then covers it up and then becomes
violent and then litigates her for 7 years to shut her up? ANSWER. That
matters. More than my brother in laws bank account. Bloggers who
confidently blogged had all corroborating evidences BB. That's why they
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refused to delete despite legal threats. TRUTH is the defense for law suit
threats and well....I have it. Go on....I'm listening.
1
Reply Share
BigBrowner > Guest
a day ago
What matters is someone's claims being true. I'm living in poverty

(=$350k house, gym membership, 2 cars, nanny some years, mexico
vacation). He's always had the best lawyers while i had sh-t (=I had high
priced attorneys and a wealthy father to pay for them). He's litigating me
to death (=I have filed the exact same # of motions that he has). He didn't
pay child support (=he was never charged with anything not once not
ever resembling that). He set me up (=you have a criminal record not him).
He isn't safe (=all the agencies let him have part time custody of kids on
weekends because yeah that's what judges do). WHAT MATTERS IS IF
SOMEONE IS TELLING THE TRUTH OR WHETHER THEY'RE MAKING
SO MUCH SH-T UP NO ONE CAN TELL WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON.
Reply Share

No_6 > BigBrowner
a day ago
I'm not directly connected with you, or Julie. I've never met her, never met you. I've
spoken with NBW personally on a business-related matter, and have personally seen
Tony about town in Mpls. He's not exactly living a downtrodden life.
Reply Share
BigBrowner > No_6
a day ago
I get that. But I have Google same as you and as soon as I started in on some of
the stu being said here, Julie's gig was up. This is fear tactics. This is bomb and
run and people are going to see straight through it. Screen cap this. Call
reporters. When it gets this hot, there's something burning.
Reply Share
No_6 > BigBrowner
21 hours ago
What I've seen with my own eyes in the company of my S.O. trumps what
you see on Google. I know more than I let on. A lot more.
Reply Share
Guest > BigBrowner
a day ago
"gig is up?" explain?

Reply Share

Guest > No_6
a day ago
He collects rare scotches for God's sake.

1
Reply Share
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Guest > BigBrowner
a day ago
Define "o the charts" wealth? I qualify for all government services so if my relative is
wealthy how does that help me exactly? Explain. You DON'T get your kids on
government lunches unless you qualify. WE ALREADY HAD THIS CONVERSATION.
BUT I'LL HAVE IT 100 TIMES WITH YOU.
Reply Share
BigBrowner > Guest
a day ago
Even though you just said this site is all part of the conspiracy and people
shouldn't comment because your ex's lawyer is going to sue you, you're just
sure of it, but then you keep talking and talking and talking. You're either losing
all self control and playing right into their hands. Waving the red flag? Or you
DONT really believe this is a conspiracy and you're running scared.
1
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Guest > BigBrowner
a day ago
Litigating to death? Yes, I would say the fact that over $500,000 has been spent in 7
years constitutes litigating to death and anyone with common sense would agree.
Reply Share
Guest > BigBrowner
a day ago
BigBrowner with 1 follower? If that is your name? Can I call you BB? What do you think
about that fact that I was abused emotionally, physically, spiritually? What do you think
about that? 1 VERY simple question.
Reply Share
BigBrowner > Guest
a day ago
WHO ARE YOU?! You're "Jmac6301" one second coming on here "I am Julie
being talked about" and signing o as Julie. Then suddenly, you're identity
changes to "Guest" and you someitmes talk about yourself in the third person
"Julie's brother in law lost his Senate race" and then wait, there's Julie again, no
wait, there's guest. GUARANTEE THIS IS ALL BEING CAPTURED. All the
switching. All the comments that make no sense and pressure other people. I
would be embarrassed to be your lawyer right now.
Reply Share
13 hours ago
Yeah, see, this is what I'm talking about with you either being Tony (only a
narcissist could read very good arguments for the other side and still
think they're winning) or just having really poor reading comprehension.
Seriously, what's up with you and all of the "Ahah! Gotcha!" comments?
Reply Share
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Guest > BigBrowner
a day ago
Actually, you are incorrect about motions however....that is not my story! My story is
about an aair, abuse, cover up and domestic violence.
Reply Share
Guest > BigBrowner
a day ago
O the charts wealth? What?

Caryn LeMur
Reply Share
a day ago
Hi Nadia:
I have read your review of this Did God Kill Jesus book. I may read the book in order to discern
if Tony Jones is returning to the faith, or still creating non-Biblical approaches/concepts.
After all, Tony's "There Are Two Marriages" is a book that continues to bother me.
- There are no scriptures used by Tony Jones in that small book.
- He urges clergy to perform a sacramental marriage, and to bless pre-marital sex (that is, sex
prior to the legal marriage) for persons that have the ability to obtain a legal marriage license.
- Jones himself employed this concept for his own marriage, and then, over 2 years later,
legally married his second wife.
- Jone's openly admits that his approach denies over 500 benefits to the married couples.
Therefore, the "Two Marriages" doctrine would be in defiance of First Timothy 5:8, and his
small book is pragmatically urging people to live "worse than an unbeliever".
I would therefore like to hear your view of "There Are Two Marriages".
[It is always possible that an author has struck out with one book, and now has a good base hit
with his newest book. However, by hearing your review, I can learn of your review methodology
and depth.]
1
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wordvixen > Caryn LeMur
12 hours ago
Totally o topic, but this cracks me up so I want to say it. Jones' two marriages concept
damns him on either end. If his idea is false, then he cheated on Julie with Courtney. If
his idea is true, then he was fornicating with Julie before he married Courtney. Either
one biblically disqualifies him from leadership.
Reply Share
a day ago
Nadia's comments about Tony's new book are not a review. They are a paid
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endorsement. She won't speak about "There Are Two Marriages" until Tony pays up.
1
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Guest > CurtisMSP
a day ago
She won't say anything? She sees the 600+ comments and she has nothing to
say? The canary in the coal mine is that when this issue of real life church abuse
lands on a blog it runs up hundreds of comments. Why? Because we have
landed on something real and wrong. NO MORE. People are done with minor
church celebrities mowing over people to get to the next book release, speaking
gig, or event. The sent enablers are pulling out their scripts and trying tirelessly
to shut it down....she "cannot possibly have been abused because she has a
nanny for her 3 kids, two jobs and graduate school." She "drives a Mazda....she
must not receive government help." Those details of my life have been provided
directly from my abuser to try and discredit the truth....it happened! The aair,
the "crazy campaign," the cover up, the silencing, the death threats and lawsuit
threats, the litigious law fare is string as ever today! And I have no lawyer. When I
get the next motion in the mail suing me for "lost wages" I will make it viral for all
to see. I am not afraid and I will not be silenced ever again. Anyone who has
joined financial careers with the NPD is a classic enabler and dare I guess a
narcissist themselves...devoid of empathy and out for self preservation.
Reply Share
BigBrowner > Guest
a day ago
You're running scared. Bring your boys in to push people around and try
to make it stop but I am betting this panic you took on all the sudden
means you're worried people are getting to the bottom of this. Try again.
Reply Share
Caryn LeMur > CurtisMSP
a day ago
Hi Curtis: yes, in a way, this does read like an endorsement.

Begin fair to Nadia, I just went to Amazon to find "There Are Two Marriages" by
Tony Jones. It appears to no longer be for sale.
My review recommended the book for some audiences. My review was also
accepted by Amazon and not removed. So, I am sorry to see the book is no
longer for sale.
Here is my review of that book, which in turn, implicitly shows my review
methodology and depth:
****************************"There Are Two Marriages" by Dr Tony
Jones**********************
I have carefully reviewed my copy of this book. It avoids all scripture references,
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and must - because this book is not about the Bible's view of marriage, but
rather, this is really a great insight into why Dr. Jones divorced his first wife, and
then married another woman.
Those who hold the Bible in esteem will not be impressed by Dr. Jones avoiding
the scripture, "But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for
those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."
[I Tim 5:8].
In this essay (which Dr. Jones declares to be a 'Manifesto'), Dr. Jones urges
clergy to perform only a 'sacramental' marriage, and to allow the state (perhaps
years later) to perform a 'legal' marriage. Dr. Jones admits to the diculties of his
own divorce, and points out the loss of any state or federal marriage benefits
during the sacramental marriage (by his own count, over 500 benefits) when he
married his second wife. He implies that a person can also dedicate this 'denial
of benefits' to any suering people-group (such as he did dedicate to the gay
community).
If you combine Dr. Jones statements with I Timothy 5:8, you end up with a book
urging clergy to perform a 'marriage' that allows a believer to 'be worse than an
unbeliever'. This is not the direction nor status desired by the gay believing
community (of which I am aware).
Thus, in my opinion, Dr. Jones is urging 'church sanctioned pre-marital sex', and
an easier divorce during this 'try before you buy' trial period.
Nonetheless, I do highly rate this book for anyone wishing to write a
college/university paper on the creation of doctrines that sound good, yet
pragmatically, deny the Bible's commands and guidance for marriages. Bible
college psychology majors may also wish a copy; and also those studying family
marriage counseling - as this shows the incredible length to which a person will
go to, in order to justify incongruent behavior and/or narcissism behavior
patterns.
Lastly, and given Dr. Jones is considered one of the leaders of the Emerging
Church Movement, I would also recommend this book for pastors and churchleaders trying to understand where the Emerging Movement is headed in
pragmatic terms.
*******************
Reply Share
elderberry > Caryn LeMur
a day ago
I *just* downloaded "There Are Two Marriages" 6 days ago! Wow, Tony.
Some kind of clean-up crew you've got going. Oh, well, you couldn't stop
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me from reading the crazy. You *literally* wrote a book full of bad theology
in order to legitimize an un-Biblical relationship. That's some intense selfdenial.

Guest
Reply Share
a day ago
Nadia is an enabler. The fact she would welcome and sit back with a bowl of popcorn hoping
to help her dear friend (who happens to have interlocking financial ties) tee up a "lost wages"
lawsuit is disgusting! You call yourself a Pastor and a feminist?! What a joke. You hung up on
me when I reached out to you for help. Hung up! http://ologsinquito.hubpages.c...
Reply Share

Guest
a day ago
My lawyer told me Simon Trautman (Tonys PR and lawyer) and MSue Wilson his other $450 an
hour lawyer are fearing up for the next battle. Next up is "suing for lost wages" Kandace and
enablers are here trolling for exhibits. How do you know Julie? Defamation suits. THIS is what
narcissist do. Kandace is gathering her list McCarthy style so Tonys team of lawyers can further
threaten, Sue and intimidate. What IS the defense for defamation? The truth...and I have it.
Reply Share
Kandace > Guest
a day ago
I hope that doesn't end up being true, but I never know what will happen next. I will
make a note to follow up and share here if Tony's lawyer does sue you for lost wages. In
what way have you impacted his wages? Did he lose a job after the divorce?
1
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BigBrowner > Kandace
a day ago
Don't let people get into your head. They know a lot of stu came out yesterday
that looks bad on all of them. That's why they're suddenly all trying to come after
you. If people tell you not to ask questions about them talking about these
allegations all over the internet, Sh-t. Write their names down. Screencap that
sh-t. YOUR MUST BE ASKING THE RIGHT QUESTIONS.
Reply Share
a day ago
Ummm... who came after her? Politely saying I no longer believe she is a
real person is hardly coming after her. I encourage her to screencap
things. I'm not sure when not believing someone on the Internet is real
became a crime or even a social faux pas.
Reply Share
BigBrowner > KT Pridgen
a day ago
Politely I said I no longer believe she is a real person? I hope you don't
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call yourself an advocate for people on the margins because you suck at
it. You already said you don't know Julie and yet you're willing to go after
some person for just asking questions even though you all supposedly
don't believe in silencing. ADD KT PRIDGEN TO THE LIST OF PEOPLE
who participated this whole last two days and read all of these problems
with the allegations, some that are googleable and some that can be
found through links provided, and is still standing here telling people
about Julie's allegations and calling anyone who calls her blu fake.
I suppose you want to give out your home address here? The names of
your kids? If there really is a reporter looking into this, you'd be on my list.
Reply Share
a day ago
Yes. I politely said I thought her profile was fake. I told her that I
understand why she would not want to give out identifying information,
but that unfortunately, not doing so meant that I couldn't take her at her
word. It's the Internet, after all.
Please quote where I "went after her." Thanks!
Have a reporter look into me, that's fine. I live an exceptionally boring life.
And no, I won't give out my address (and I don't have kids). But I'll link
you to my master's thesis! And there's pretty clear evidence of my
existence online.
1
Guest > Kandace
Reply Share
a day ago
clearly, you DO know and want that to happen next. you are so not fooling me or
anyone else who has experienced the machine.
Reply Share
Kandace > Guest
a day ago
I understand you've been hurt, but not everyone is part of a conspiracy.

It's just not true and it doesn't matter how many times you say it.
1
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Guest > Kandace
a day ago
That's weird, "Not everyone is part of a conspiracy" is verbatim Team

NPD speak. Heard it for years, especially when I pull back the curtains on
the mighty and powerful NPD Oz. We have definitely left Kansas.
Kandace....I am a survivor! Nuclear war cannot take me out after what I
have been up against. You are going to have to do better than pretend to
be a reporter to get Exhibit A from me. Team NPD is notorious for hauling
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me into court and losing with reams of blog posts and comments. There
is nothing that enrages an NPD more than a disparaging comment. It's
called narcissistic rage and it is a clinical event. Call me Kandace. He or
Nadia will give you my number. They have them and you know them so it
will be easy.
Reply Share
Kandace > Guest
a day ago
Nuclear war? I understand you're frustrated, but you really are misreading
who I am and why I engaged this. I think it's been good to hear what led
people to become advocates for you.
1
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Guest > Kandace
a day ago
Kandace. You have failed to mention anything regarding my story. You are
solely obsessed with trying to discredit people who support and believe
me. Who does that? And why?! It is highly suspect. And, AGAIN call me.
Let's chat. I'll tell you every last nasty dirty adulterous domestic violence
detail.
Reply Share
BigBrowner > Guest
a day ago
If you really believed Kandace was a fake person and your husband was
using this board to gather info for a lawsuit, you wouldn't leave comment
after comment playing into their hands. It's obvious you're starting a fear
campaign. GO AHEAD. Keep going. Make sure everyone is crystal clear
on how desparate you are so they go through these comments with a fine
tooth comb to see what info is coming out that's got you so upset.
Reply Share
a day ago
Kandace, if you want to get everyone's point of view, why have you not
contacted Julie?
Reply Share
Kandace > KT Pridgen
a day ago
I've answered that several times, KT. I have not sent any emails myself,
only welcomed others including directly inviting Julie to email me. I also
have seen that Julie's story is well documented on DH, TWW, RLS, etc.
But Brad Sargent's diagnosis left a few gaps people were asking
questions about and this is why I sought to find the missing information. I
believe that it is worthwhile to answer people's questions and that it
could produce beneficial results.
1
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Guest > Kandace
a day ago
Because she set up a fake email. She cannot send from it as that would
leave a trail. She is here to gather exhibits for Simon Trautman who TOLD
my lawyer the next campaign is the "lost wages" campaign....watch and
wait and I will make certain to post all litigious law fare activities in real
time.
Reply Share
BigBrowner > Guest
a day ago
We will watch and wait and if it doesn't happen it will be just one more
hole in your unraveling story. I SAY IT AGAIN: Read all the comments
here, people. It's enough to scare someone making false allegations as
Julie will continue to prove to you by leaving a million comments right
after saying no one should comment because her husband is setting all
this up and it's all part of this big conspiracy she's been telling us about
with the poverty and the custody charges that weren't real.
Reply Share
CurtisMSP > Kandace
a day ago
"I hope he doesn't sue you... Now please tell me exactly how you have caused
Tony to lose wages."
Are you serious? Even worse is Nadia is allowing this to happen on her own
blog.
Reply Share
a day ago
Yeah, "Kandace" (XianAtty?) is looking more and more suspicious. It

reminds me A LOT of a pretty professional troll/scammer I've done
reading on. The same tactics/voice/etc. You learn to recognize it.
Kandace, will you link us to your thesis if you are so open about your
identity?
Reply Share
a day ago
I have already spoken with a couple people on here and it is okay with me
if you or others question my identity. I think that all of us should questions
any strangers speaking on this, myself included. You certainly may
choose to disregard my opinions or approach.
I considered giving even more information about myself earlier as it
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relates to this story in a sensitive way, but my partner is not comfortable

with that because boundary-setting is an important part of online
activism. I know that might not be good enough for you, but it's where I
am for now.
1
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Guest > Kandace
a day ago
whats your number? you gave a fake email and name but I think it is fair
for all to see if you are more than a sent enabler. What's your Facebook?
Twitter? Where are you at grad school with hours of free time to help an
abuser build a lawsuit?
Reply Share
a day ago
"I have already spoken with a couple people on here and it is okay with
me if you or others question my identity. I think that all of us should
questions any strangers speaking on this, myself included. You certainly
may choose to disregard my opinions or approach."
The funny thing is that this is the exact tactic the other fake person used
to dismiss questioning. Oh well. I don't think it matters. I'm pretty sure at
this point, no one thinks you're real except the person(s) behind the 10
other Disqus accounts created for this conversation, ha ha.
Reply Share
Guest > KT Pridgen
a day ago
It's such complete and utter BS. She refuses to contact me because
legally she needs intel to be freely sent to her and not be that she
solicited it. This ain't my first NPD lawsuit rodeo Kandace....In fact, I
stopped counting after 13.
1
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BigBrowner > Guest
a day ago
Here's an idea. Stop going back and forth between I'm Julie and I'm
guest. You're dive bombing this conversation. Selling fear. And then
taking o. You're doing yourself in.
Reply Share
a day ago
KT, I don't know you, but I want to ask you an honest question. Are you
the kind of person who would say this even if you felt there was a
possibility that I might be someone drawn to the topic of abuse because I
had experienced it and who had pursued this field because I wanted to
make a dierence? Are you really so sure that everything is a conspiracy
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and there are no good hearted or well meaning (or equally broken) people
in the world who could come on and want to lend a hand? I am a pretty
strong person, but it's...dicult to process your change of tone here and
it just seems unnecessarily hurtful and a bit surprising given our earlier
exchanges.
1
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CurtisMSP > Kandace
a day ago
Didn't you just say you would "not continue to question anyone else in
the comments"
Reply Share
Kandace > CurtisMSP
a day ago
Yes, I said other than summarizing what people shared so far, I would not
continue with my original intentions to ask people to explain their real-life
connections with Julie or Tony unless Nadia answers first.
1
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Guest > Kandace
a day ago
Why in the world would it be pertinent to know real life connections?

Hmm....because for a lawsuit for slander and libel she needs to try and
prove that there was an an internet campaign of sorts. Do not talk to this
sent pawn. She works for a diagnosed NPD. Ask David Hayward the legal
threats to get him to delete his mega thread that included many people
APOLOGIZING for proliferating the "bat shit crazy" campaign. Enablers of
an NPD that I had never met "in real life" THAT is what Kandace should
be investigating. But alas, she has an agenda and a case to build.
Reply Share
BigBrowner > Guest
a day ago
I think we all see EXACTLY why people should be asking about your real
life connections. He doesn't have criminal charges, you do. But wait it
was the police who are part of the conspiracy with the judges and the
child welfare agency and the people who live in your town and who are
keeping you in the poverty of a $350k house with two cars, "sometimes"
a nanny, a gym membership, and vacations to Mexico. We've all read
everything said here. If you had a real friend in this bunch, they'd tell you
you're playing right into everyone's hands right now.
Reply Share
a day ago
I don't think you are a real person. I think you are someone who has
created a Disqus account. I might be wrong, but I've learned to trust my
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BS meter, especially since there are several things you've done that raise
fake profile red flags for me. You have no reason to be oended if you are
real. My frustration is not with Kandace Brenner but with a person who
would create (probably multiple) fake accounts online just to question, in
a variety of ways, the integrity of an abuse victim. It is totally your
prerogative not to oer identifying information online, but unfortunately,
that also means that you cannot prove you are real when people doubt
your existence. Give and take, and all that.
1
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a day ago
Okay. This is frustrating, but I do understand the obstacles here. I myself

have some trust and paranoia that's triggered with quite a few people
here in the last day or so.
I understand the give and take and I won't say I wouldn't be similarly
doubtful in your shoes. It's hard, but yes. Life definitely gives and takes
and we can't change that. Thanks for being honest.
2
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Kandace > CurtisMSP
a day ago
I don't care if she answers, I just didn't understand. As I said, I will

summarize but I'm waiting for Nadia. Apparently I'll be waiting a while...
In the mean time, my approach may be dierent from you, but I have the
right to express my ideas.
1
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CurtisMSP > Kandace
a day ago
You have demonstrated no ability to understand facts that are plainly

available for anyone to read. What is your interest in coaxing people into
making statements that are actionable against them in court?
1
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Kandace > CurtisMSP
a day ago
I admit I have no idea how others involved could use the content, but I
have been honest about my intentions from the beginning. A lot of people
have looked into the sources who spoke as Tony's supporters, but when I
saw people raising questions about what drew Julie's most avid
supporters to post about it, there was no research out there.
1
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CurtisMSP > Kandace
a day ago
You can't research something that doesn't exist. But if you troll long
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enough, you might extract a few nuggets that will be useful in court.
This blog is not about you. You've already demonstrated you have
nothing to add to the conversation.
Reply Share
Guest > CurtisMSP
a day ago
It's now comical!

1
Guest > Kandace
Reply Share
a day ago
You're an idiot Kandace. Honestly. How stupid do you think people are? You
have been sent here McCarthian-style to get names and connect dots to help
build the case. You are an enabler. I repeatedly told you to contact me directly if
you are sincere and yet you refuse. He has sued me and lost countless times.
The defense for defamation of character is the truth. And I have it.
Reply Share
Guest > Kandace
a day ago
He just lost two weeks ago when he tried to have a harassment restraining order
put on me to gag me from telling my story. Simon Trautman his lawyer lost.
Simon praises his book on Amazon comments. Clearly having drank the koolaid. I think I literally saw him blow steam out of his ears when his lawyer said, "I
withdraw." His face was rage-red! Make no mistakes...this person wants me
obliterated from the planet. Last year at a conference he told a stranger he would
like his ex-wife murdered. He has settled for litigation murder. I do not have a
lawyer. I cannot aord one. What a do have is the truth. He will never win any
defamation lawsuit because of it. I hold the truth and that really does free me.
Reply Share
Kandace > Guest
a day ago
Well I don't know if you're following but I agreed with Curtis a couple
hours ago about Curtis and others waiting to respond to my questions
until Nadia responds and I then posted the same questions for Nadia. I'll
summarize what people who have responded so far when I get the
chance, but I'm not going to continue to question anyone else in the
comments (will still respond to emails) since it creates a weird imbalance
that Nadia won't respond.
1
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Guest > Kandace
a day ago
this is weird....you acting like a reporter....not. buying. it. but kudos to

team NPD for creativity.
3
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Kandace > Guest
a day ago
As I clarified earlier when you asked, I am not a reporter and never

claimed to be. I think it only helps to understand the whole story from
every angle we can.
1
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Austin Franklin Thomas > Kandace
a day ago
What angle are you "investigating" that hasn't been investigated yet?
Your comments on this blog just seem...weird. I can't figure out what
you're trying to accomplish. I think it's already pretty clear to anybody
who is interested what is going on, and how each person in this
discussion is connected to the concerned parties. It's not that hard to
figure out. There's nothing to investigate.
1
Guest
Reply Share
a day ago
http://www.nakedpastor.com/201...
1
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Austin Franklin Thomas
a day ago
This is absolutely the creepiest and most strange online discussion I've ever read.
The silence on this matter from people who are closely involved and habitually quick to chime
in on everything else church-related (like when a friend's book comes out) is deafening, and I
think damning.
What excuse do RHW, NBW and others have of not responding to these allegations? It's crazy
to me.
6
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CurtisMSP > Austin Franklin Thomas
a day ago
Sorry, this is not a discussion blog. This is a book and conference marketing / lawsuit
trolling blog. If you want discussion, go somewhere else.
1
Kandace
Reply Share
2 days ago
Curtis below made the suggestion that I should ask Nadia (a Tony supporter*) the same
questions I asked of those who post allegations as supporters of Julie (like David). I am
primarily trying to fill in holes raised by questions asked in the thread that have NOT been
covered and I do know that Nadia has already been looked into and named in Sargent's lists
and a few videos etc., but I don't see how it hurts to ask her to respond as I am sure she reads
these comments. Nadia, if you are comfortable responding, do you know Tony or Julie
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personally? Have you interacted with either of them in person or has it been digital/phone
communication? How long have you known Tony and to what extent? In case you haven't been
reading, KT, Tim W-B, Danica, and some others have been transparent to share they do not
have any real-life experience of Tony or Julie, but come to this conversation because they
support abuse victims. I've asked David Hayward similar questions. Thank you.
*Edited based on the constructive criticism below.
1
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nakedpastor > Kandace
a day ago
I think Julie would agree with me that I'm not one of the "supporters of Julie" as you
suggest, but a supporter of safe spaces for anyone to share their experiences of being
abused, shamed, and silenced. If the shoe fits, wear it. If Julie identifies as one of those
then that's her right and privilege.
Reply Share
BigBrowner > nakedpastor
a day ago
WHY DIDN'T YOU ADD A LINK ASKING PEOPLE TO PAY TO YOUR ARTWORK
OR TO BE PART OF YOUR GROUP THAT COSTS $7 A MONTH LIKE YOU DID
ALL THE OTHER TIMES, DAVID HAYWARD? There's profit in every one of these
posts for you. It's right down there in the link at the bottom of your posts.
$$$$$$$ Keep his work alive, folks. Hate TONY JONES, check out these
allegations, buy my art, pay me every month.
Reply Share
nakedpastor > BigBrowner
a day ago
haha. like i said above, I'm oering you a free print of your choice as a
gift. my blog nakedpastor makes no money at all. ironically, NBW's does.
I know because i used to blog under this patheos network. so... FREE
GIFT BigBrownNoser. Just for you. Take your pick.
Reply Share
Ragnarok > BigBrowner
a day ago
This is by far the funniest comment yet.

Reply Share

CurtisMSP > Kandace
2 days ago
Perceived supporter? Nadia says right in this post that "I will honestly be referring
people to Did God Kill Jesus? for decades to come." That is not perceived support.
That is direct, public support, in writing.
Sometimes a person reveals their bias by trying too hard to sound neutral.
1
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Kandace > CurtisMSP
2 days ago
I edited this based on your feedback.

1
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CurtisMSP > Kandace
a day ago
If you can't even get a basic fact about Nadia's support for Tony right,
you either haven't done the research you claim you have done, or you are
intentionally trying to portray people as neutral who are known, in fact, to
be non-neutral. Either option doesn't bode well for your proposed
research project.
1
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2 days ago
Perceived Tony supporter? She had a support statement for Tony on the Scribd site until
the day Tony removed it.
I think it would be a good idea for you to really familiarize yourself with this situation
before you start acting as if you are an expert. It sounds like you are just stumbling onto
it and don't have a good understanding of who said what and when. It's complex and
the information is scattered. I would start with David Hayward's blog, RL Stollar's blog,
the Wartburg Watch, and the Diagnosing Emergent blog. You will also want to read
Tony's initial response to the situation. Most of the other stu written by his supporters
has been scrubbed, but that stu may be available on some of these other blogs.
I would be giving you a more even-sided reading list if, as I mentioned, Tony's side
hadn't scrubbed much of what's been said.
EDIT: And I'm only saying this because it seems like you are unfamiliar with some of the
basic information on how this has all played out-- i.e. not knowing that NBW has
specifically supported Jones against abuse allegations and not being familiar with what
Julie's supporters have said in the past about why they are speaking out and what
threats they've faced.
4
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2 days ago
I have read those blogs in detail, but missed that tweet among the few things
she said. I have modified comment above to reflect the correction. Thanks for
the link. Teamwork. :)
1
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Adrenalin Tim > KT Pridgen
2 days ago
Just to add to this, Brother Maynard has copies of the statements of support
from Sarah Cunningham, Phyllis Tickle, Phillip Clayton, Kathy Helmers, Joesph
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Edelheit, John Vest, Randy Buist, Pete Rollins, Courtney Perry, Rachel Swan,
Troy Bronsink, Doug Pagitt, and Brian McLaren here. (I don't know if NBW did
not write one, or if it was not archived, or what.)
Reply Share
KT Pridgen > Adrenalin Tim
2 days ago
It may have been a support tweet as opposed to a statement. Some of

the stu collected was in the form of tweets or other social media eorts.
I'm (now) 95% sure she had something up. If not, whoops. I'd feel stupid.
:P
EDIT: Oh! This was in my browser history:
https://storify.com/TruthAbout...
Obviously, it goes nowhere now, but it means she did have a message
up. I'm mostly just glad I'm not going crazy!
1
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Adrenalin Tim > KT Pridgen
2 days ago
Got it! I dug up a cached version of the page.

Message Received From Nadia Bolz-Weber, 01.28.15
I love your honesty...your devotion to your family... Emailed to
lovefortony@gmail.com
It's not much, but given the date, that email address (Which, um.), and
the TruthAboutTony Twitter/Storify/Scribd campaign, it's not dicult to
put it into context as a statement of full support, just as much as the
others.
1
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KT Pridgen > Adrenalin Tim
2 days ago
THANK YOU. Teamwork, FTW.

And... ugh. That right there is a message from a sycophant.
EDIT: Full text of the message-- "I love you, Tony. I love your honesty,
your disarming wit, your devotion to your family, and your theological
mind."
*gag* Maybe NBW is looking for a second spiritual husband.
1
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Guest > KT Pridgen
a day ago
That's funny! "Spiritual wife" crap made me realize I was no longer in

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Kansas but entered the Oz-like world of a narcissist. I dared to pull back
the curtain and for that I must pay. I hold the truth and that terrifies and
enrages the NPD. "I'll tear your head o" was said and I believe if given
the opportunity he absolutely would.
1
Kandace
Reply Share
2 days ago
Someone down the feed asked about me and I was glad for the reminder because I've been
meaning to answer that. My name is Kandace Brenner. I am a graduate student and also a wife
and mother of two small children who lives in California. I did my Masters thesis on Activism in
a Digital Age. As I disclosed early on, I do not know Tony or Julie. I noticed several commenters
raised questions about the group of people who are continually posting these allegations online
and when I went to research this, first on Sargent's detailed page and then on the others, I
found plenty of people have looked into the sources of information from Tony supporters, but
those who are supporting Julie have not been asked similar questions about what led them to
the conversation. It it possible some of them will have firsthand information that hasn't come
out yet. I've been grateful for Danica, KT, Tim W-B and the others who've been comfortable
sharing they don't know Julie, but friendship, a heart for activism, and abuse experiences have
given them a desire to assist Julie.
1
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2 days ago
Did you/are you doing your graduate studies under your maiden name, then?
1
Reply Share
2 days ago
Hey KT, I pretty much answered this just a little bit below in my comments to
George about a half hour ago. :) You must be thinking along the same lines.
Reply Share
2 days ago
Thanks, hadn't seen that!

1
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2 days ago
No problem!! :)

Kandace > Kandace
Reply Share
2 days ago
Oh also, sorry to reply to my own comment, but I did provide my email address down
the thread if anyone wants to contact me.
Reply Share
Page 58 of 196
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nakedpastor
10/04/2015 19:49
2 days ago
I drew a cartoon and wrote a post in response to this:

"Is this about Tony Jones vs Julie McMahon or about the abuse of power?
www.nakedpastor.com/2015/04/is...
9
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Kandace > nakedpastor
2 days ago
Welcome back, David and thanks for sharing this link! I was wondering since your name
has been brought up a few times and since you've been one of the people who
operates under your real identity, if you'd be willing to share your backstory with Julie.
People have asked whether you know Julie or were ever her pastor in a brick and
mortar congregation in the same city or if you've developed a connection based on
things like online and phone interactions? Did you know Tony and Julie when they were
married or divorcing etc? I haven't wanted to comment on these things because I don't
think it's fair to speak for someone else, but it hasn't seemed like you had anything to
hide so I thought you might be comfortable sharing what interests or passions might
have led you to adopt the role you have in this discussion?
1
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nakedpastor > Kandace
a day ago
I've adopted no role at all. The only thing I've done is provide and protect safe
spaces for survivors who have been silenced to share their experiences. That's
what I do. In fulfilling that role, I've made friends and I've also made enemies.
Whether I've met these people you mention face to face or online is immaterial. I
believe these questions are all flack to distract from the real issue that is now
well publicized... that there are serious abuses of power intent on silencing its
victims.
2
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Jmac6301 > Kandace
a day ago
Actually no one asked but you, Kandace. This is her feeble attempt to discredit
me. Posturing as some sincere interested neutral party but what she would like
to determine is if my supporters know me in really life and pointing to that as
some litmus test. I oered fur her to contact me...that's not what she's interested
in. Her angle is to try and discredit me. Now she will say that is untrue.
1
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CurtisMSP > Kandace
2 days ago
You are certainly free to ask, but I don't understand your line of reasoning. What
does David Hayward have to do with Tony Jones' abuse if power, other than
David was one person who refused to delete comments from his blog? Nadia is
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doing the same thing -- leaving all comments up. So what does that have to do
with Tony's abuse if power?
Reply Share
Kandace > CurtisMSP
2 days ago
I have seen several documents and videos which investigate Nadia's

connection to Tony and question their interlinked profit streams. If Brad or
anyone else answered the similar questions about David, please let me
know, but the point is to fill in the holes in the information available.
1
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CurtisMSP > Kandace
2 days ago
I don't think David has received any money from Julie, or is bound to any
contract with her, in a manner that is parallel with Nadia and Tony. But I
guess David could clarify that, if that is your question.
3
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2 days ago
On the contrary, he's received legal/financial threats for continuing to host

conversations that are critical of Tony Jones.
3
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2 days ago
These are both good points and a part of why, only if David is
comfortable, I am sure people would love to hear about his role.
Reply Share
CurtisMSP > Kandace
2 days ago
What you've learned about Nadia -- did you learn it from Nadia directly, or
from other sources?
I think David has explained himself quite completely on his own blog.
If you are not getting answers from Nadia, on Nadia's own blog, what
makes you think anyone else should answer your questions here?
Reply Share
Kandace > CurtisMSP
2 days ago
Other people independent of Nadia did an investigation of Nadia and

included her on lists of aliates and at least one video. I have not seen
any independent source ask David the same questions but I might be
mistaken. In any case, I am not a big fan of call out articles that go after
someone so I prefer to ask David himself to respond to these questions.
Reply Share
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2 days ago
He's been open about his role. He's talked about threats of litigation
often. Most of the people commenting have been open about their roles.
That's what I don't get. I'm not sure why you need researchers when you
can just Google and read through the billions of pages of people talking
about this issues which often contains the reasons why they support
Julie.
1
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2 days ago
Totally. That's why I suspect he will be willing to speak for himself, which
is always my preference.
Reply Share
CurtisMSP > Kandace
2 days ago
Given your preference, and since this is Nadia's blog and she brought up
the topic, I think it is fair to ask Nadia to answer your questions first, and
we will all follow suit from there.
1
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Kandace > CurtisMSP
2 days ago
Sounds good, I will post that above.
Reply Share
2 days ago
I'll help you find the stu he's already said about the situation and
himself. (Sorry, it's a rude joke site-- I'm actually using it because it's a
nice, short URL to post here and give you the advanced search results
that you need. I'm not intending it to be the passive-aggressive statement
it's usually meant as): http://lmgtfy.com/?q=julie+mcm...
1
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2 days ago
Thanks I'll check this out and see if it answers these specific questions
while we wait to see if David responds and desires to speak for himself.
And thanks for being sensitive, but I see it as a form of genuine help.
Reply Share
Guest > Kandace
a day ago
She a troll working for Tonys $450 an hour lawyer and his hired PR firm
Simon Troutman who just lost in court 2 weeks ago when they tried to
sue me for commenting and telling my story. Simon praises his book on
Amazon. This is a set up. Suing for "lost wages" is up next.
Page 61 of 196
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Guest
Reply Share
2 days ago
http://ologsinquito.hubpages.c...
2
Guest
Reply Share
2 days ago
George what is your connection to my abuser? Or are you one in the same?
Reply Share
2 days ago
Julie - it may be missed by some who are new to this situation but there is a distinct
pattern in the way that some treat you.
Firstly, they appear to be dispassionate and rational - a method often the preserve of
the powerful and advantaged.
Second, there seems to be a party line being supported (even the use of the language is
consistent with the party line). Those who have read much of what has been said by you
will see that it is consistent but written in the moment.
I have often said 'PR and propaganda happen when you get many people to say the
same thing in a similar way. Protest is when the same thing is said by many people in
dierent ways'
George can present his unemotional assessment but many of us can see how he is
deflecting from the real issues.
6
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Kandace > Alan Molineaux
2 days ago
I think this is interesting insight worth considering. I also think it's important that
we don't ask everyone to assume that if someone disagrees with you, they must
be riding a party line or participating in propaganda. It seems to suggest that
you're invalidating everyone else's experiences and certainly some of the people
here are voicing their own independent thoughts even if you question others.
1
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Guest > Kandace
a day ago
You're extremely transparent Kandace. The jig is up. You've tied yourself
to a sinking ship. The first clue was your refusal to contact me directly.
Reply Share
Alan Molineaux > Kandace
2 days ago
Thanks Kandice. I take your push back and appreciate it.
Page 62 of 196
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10/04/2015 19:49
To explain further I am suggesting that none of us are free from the

influence of our constituency but that some stories are told in a more free
flowing way (ie not just buying into the party line by reissuing generic
statements).
To me the direction of the critique is important. A push 'upward' against
someone in power should be allowed more freedom than a push
'downward' towards a person being (or claiming to be) oppressed or
abused by someone in power.
Many of the comments by those who are generally supportative of TJ
want to present this as an equal but opposite argument between two
equal parties.
It is not and we need to burst that mythical bubble.
Hope that helps. Al
3
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christop1 > Kandace
2 days ago
I think it is pretty clear that most of the accounts that are speaking in
support of Tony are being directed by the one person (particularly
because the same phrases and arguments and methods of favouring
characters seem to be getting used), and it comes across as pretty
creepy.
1
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George > christop1
2 days ago
Estimate the number of distinct, real people with no connection to Julie

who support her and are willing to say so online.
Now imagine for a moment that there are a comparable number of
distinct, real people with no connection to Tony who have a dierent
perspective and are willing to say so online.
Imagining some nefarious mastermind behind the scenes directing it all
like a Bond villain gives Tony too much credit, I think. I'm not being
directed. I'm just a person trying to work through what I've read, who
thinks that this situation doesn't read as perfectly clear-cut. If y'all can't
imagine people doing that and not automatically coming to your
conclusions, that's a failure of imagination on your part.
Besides, if it is true that we live in a patriarchy where victims are routinely
disbelieved, then of course there are lots of distinct, real people who
aren't ready to fall in line behind an accuser. To imagine that all this doubt
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must really be the work of one guy is -- I dunno -- wishful thinking? I

suppose it would be easier if there were just one villain in a secret lair,
who when defeated, would cause the entire system to crumble.
1
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Alan Molineaux > George
2 days ago
George - I think you might be missing the point somewhat. The very
mimetic theory that TJ teaches (and one that I support) shows that the
emulation of our heroes is part of the deal. Therefore the direction of
support is driven towards the powerful rather than the oppressed. In this
regard it is possible for some one to mount a PR campaign from a safe
distance and rely on the willingness of enablers to continue the narrative.
1
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CanIbeFrank > christop1
2 days ago
I don't think that's "pretty clear" at all. I'm on no one's side other than to
say that rarely is one person 100% the abuser and the other person
100% the victim in domestic dispute cases, at least in those where I
personally know the people I can say that (and I don't personally know TJ
and JM). I think some of the anonymity is due to the attacks on anyone
who doesn't declare 100% support of one particular side, accusing them
with "silencing" and "siding with the powerful" when it's more likely an
issue of acknowledging that this is a very complicated, interwoven, sad
situation for all involved.
1
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2 days ago
So you don't think 15+ brand new Disqus accounts specifically created to
comment here and almost exclusively posting things critical of Julie and
supportive of Tony is suspicious? At all?
But you are suspicious enough about the monetary connections between
Julie and her supporters to solicit the help of retired cops and
professional investigators?
Well, okay then.
4
Reply Share
2 days ago
I do think some are fakes on both sides actually. I also think there are
some real people out there who probably didn't have Disqus accounts
and didn't feel courageous enough to use their real Facebook identity. I
think we have to evaluate the source of all our information and make
personal choices about what seems credible to us.
1
Page 64 of 196
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10/04/2015 19:49
Reply Share
2 days ago
So, the all two (?) of the new accounts that seem to be supporting Julie
are fake and a few of the twelve (?) that seem to be supporting Tony are
fake?
I think it's far more likely that the ratio of fake-to-real is close to even.
I'm not sure why people are afraid of folks who are supporting Julie. As
far as I know, no one supporting Julie has threatened to litigate anyone
into poverty for speaking their opinion or allowing others to speak their
opinion.
2
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2 days ago
I'm not sure why they're afraid either. I actually had a fairly well known
celebrity-Christian-type email me and tell me they were afraid of
Stephanie too, which surprised me. Good points.
2
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Guest > Kandace
a day ago
BS
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George > Kandace
2 days ago
Hey Kandace, they're Google-stalking you over on the SCCL Facebook

group -- trying to look up your masters thesis and other personal
information about you.
This is exactly why I made a dummy account. I don't want SCCL
members discussing my identity online and emailing my employer asking
if they know I "support an abuser" or something like that.
1
Reply Share
Alan Molineaux > George
2 days ago
Have you given your true identity to anyone involved in this situation?
Perhaps you can give it to Kandace and she can at least confirm that you
are not directly connected to TJ
Reply Share
CurtisMSP > George
2 days ago
Its not any more stalking than Kandace asking about SCCL folks here.
People are free to go to both places and read anything they want.
1
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Reply Share
Kandace > George
2 days ago
Thanks for being sensitive to that, George. It actually doesn't bother me. I
think all of us have a right to learn as much about those speaking as they
are comfortable sharing. I didn't take my partner's name until 2013 bc we
missed the first window in CA, so I don't think there's anything to find
under Brenner anyways. I would honestly be concerned if people
WEREN'T evaluating strangers making claims online. That's the whole
point of this and I shouldn't be an exception! :)
1
George > Guest
Reply Share
2 days ago
I read one of his books once. Saw this mentioned on a dierent blog, read about it,
became fascinated by the soap opera-ness of it all, particularly because of my painful
past with a friend who routinely threatened suicide. I suppose I'm working through my
issues with that pain. It was utterly excruciating to have to live in constant fear of
whether something I did or failed to do would make her take that step.
I believe you suered in your marriage. I believe Tony was wrong to make himself
physically and emotionally unavailable to you, particularly the cheating. But because of
my past with my suicidal friend, reading about those suicidal threats of yours is
especially triggering, and I empathize instinctively with victims of such behavior.
Reply Share
Guest > George
2 days ago
Wanting to disappear is not suicidal threat. I was not suicidal, George. I was in
despair realizing I was married to a human devoid if empathy. It was a nightmare.
The gas lighting. I've experienced hell. It is 12 years with a sadistic narcissist.
Who are you going to believe? The one with a diagnosis with the hallmark of a
pathological liar or the victim with the police reports, sex emails, psych evals,
custody evals, discernment letter, apologies from cult members who never met
me but heard I was insane? I'm done defending myself. I hold the truth. He
knows! My kids know! And I know. Doug Pagitt knows too. He is an abusive liar
and that will never go away no matter how hard he tries and his well groomed
followers try. The truth remains.
4
SHPryor1
Reply Share
2 days ago
I still have mixed feelings and am wavering on where I stand on all this, but think the most
valuable things to come out of this are as follows:
1. I was surprised Tim Wilson-Brown doesn't actually know anyone he's been so vehemently
accusing and defending. That shocked me. Australia's a long way away to be an expert on a
bunch of strangers.
Page 66 of 196
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2. Julie has born the responsibility of raising children alone with majority custody, but she's not
the typical single mom since she directly said she doesn't even have to pay rent until she'd
done with school and leases vehicles and hosts an aupair and all that.
3. There are at least two people I've seen now who have said their companies investigated this
and research led them to question the allegations. I think everyone has a hard time saying this
aloud because its so unpopular to question a victim, but it surprised me still how confident they
seemed based on whatever they'd found.
4. More light is needed. Many times people suggested others should stop asking questions
about certain topics. More light needs to be shed on that. It was good to see some people
being honest about how they don't know Julie at all, but also talking about some of their heart
for abuse victims that led them to join in.
1
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wordvixen > SHPryor1
a day ago
"but she's not the typical single mom since she directly said she doesn't even have to
pay rent until she'd done with school"
Oooh, yup, you're totally right. The grandparents should TOTALLY be on the hook to
pay for housing for their grown daughter and her kids instead of, yanno, their actual exhusband/father who is certainly making more than enough to provide for the people he's
responsible for.
"because its so unpopular to question a victim"
Oh. my. god.
Reply Share
CurtisMSP > SHPryor1
2 days ago
If you want more light, why don't you ask Nadia to chime in? It is her blog after all. I'm
sure she has information that would help clarify things.
3
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Danica > SHPryor1
2 days ago
"1. I was surprised Tim Wilson-Brown doesn't actually know anyone he's been so
vehemently accusing and defending. That shocked me. Australia's a long way away to
be an expert on a bunch of strangers."
And it becomes crystal clear why you've been phishing for information on Julie's
supporters for going on two days now, Tony. You have been attempting to find a reason
(any reason) to discredit and silence them. Does it put a major bee in your bonnet, Tony,
that for the first time in seven years people beyond your victim's family are starting to
believe and side with her?
3
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Danica > SHPryor1
2 days ago
It's super interesting to me how several dierent ghost accounts on here have used this same,
unusual phrase: "more light". It's almost as if the same person is authoring all the words ...
4
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CurtisMSP > SHPryor1
2 days ago
It is not uncommon to read an author's books, participate in their blogs, listen to their
podcast, become a fan, and come to a place where you feel like you know, trust and
respect that person. Most authors encourage that sort of relationship from afar; it is how
they make a living.
But, when it becomes known that the author withholds essential information about
themselves, the sense if trust by the fan is broken. And when it becomes known that the
author has used his position of influence to control and silence critics, what was once
sincere trust can turn into sincere rage.
Nobody questions a fans sincerety when they support an author from afar, even though
they have never met. Why do you question the same person's sincerety and credibility
when they turn from fan to critic?
2
BMikeThomas
Reply Share
2 days ago
This is what I mean about think of the children. Did you guys catch BIG BROWNIES post?
There's so many people who are just trying to gloat or push agendas, I guess my agenda is
convincing people this isn't helpful and just makes everyone look bad so I'm not free of
motives either, but I'm just saying when people are posting stu with this attitude, things are
moving in the wrong direction.
Big Browner: "Julie turns out to be the daughter or wealthy oil family.
Julie's sister is married to a senator worth tens of millions.
Juliehas or at least had (based on her own admission) a nanny and she
bought/leased SUVs for herself and her nanny by her own admission.
Julie DID go on a Mexican resort vacation while people were raising money for her here.
Julie lives in a 350k house in a swanky neighborhood that is owned by her rich parents.
Tony Jones wasn't actually ever charged by the courts for being in arrears.
Tony didn't litigate Julie into poverty. Actually she filed as many motions
as he did and also had a high priced lawyer from the beginning.
I can't even keep track of it all but damnnnnnn. Things in Edina seem to
stay in Edina...until they finally find there way to the internet. Go
ahead and keep saying no one should ask questions. The more you call for
silence, the more that seems to come out."
1
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Reply Share
Guest > BMikeThomas
2 days ago
I went line for line correcting his false allegations and then he ran away. you feign you
care about the children and then repost false allegations. I gotta say NBW you have
some really sick and twisted fans. May they never have sons or daughters who find
themselves in abuse. May they never have children who are abused. God help them if
this is the level of sensitivity and awareness for victims. But, then again....you hung up
on me when I sought your help.
1
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Guest > BMikeThomas
2 days ago
so why did you just repost it?
Reply Share
BMikeThomas > Guest
2 days ago
To illustrate my point. Everyone here keeps promoting free sharing so it includes

people like this guy.

BMikeThomas
Reply Share
2 days ago
Well so here we are hours later and still talking in the same circles. This is why I had suggested
that maybe we've exhausted the benefit on online communication about this. I still plead for
people to be charitable and think of the children as they type their comments into anonymous
oblivion. I saw a few more locals joining this conversation and some of what was shared about
Julie was not in good taste in my opinion, but the people who focused on how the court
records don't support all the allegations actually brought some new information and managed
to stay respectful so what do I know? Again, I think this is hurting more and more people as the
comment wars rage on, but maybe in the end I will think Danica is right and that a lot of new
information came out that gave us all some better footholds for understanding this tangled
web. It doesn't feel right to me, but clearly it's going to go on regardless of my feelings.
1
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BethAgain > BMikeThomas
2 days ago
I think any mental health professional worth their weight is going to tell you that it isn't
good for a kid to witness the very public online trashing of a parent, especially if done
even in part by the other parent. Just because they might have witnessed worse doesn't
mean this isn't confusing and humiliating for them. Just try and remember what it was
like to be a young teen or preteen and then imagine knowing thousands of people are
reading this about your parents, including your peers. Imagine showing up at school,
knowing some of the details (that I won't repeat here) that were released in that psych
eval. Your instincts are right on.
1
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Guest > BethAgain
2 days ago
Beth while you are so concerned know for 7 years attempts were made to settle
this privately. An NPD can't do it. So, I will tell my children to always speak up
loudly wherever abuse is found and do not ever let someone try and silence you.
2
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Guest > BethAgain
2 days ago
Nice try Beth. You are recycling from TWW. No, I would say your parent throwing
another parent to the ground and you watching trumps my defending myself
from my abuser any day of the week. I will tirelessly advocate for victims to
speak up even when silencing attempts get desperate such as this one.
Reply Share
Guest > BMikeThomas
2 days ago
Again, word-for-word from the empire playbook. "think of the children" was he when he
staged an arrest in front of them? how about the aair? the domestic violence they
witnessed? yes, please. think of the children.
1
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Tim Wilson-Brown > BMikeThomas
2 days ago
In my opinion, the children have already seen the abuse, and are subject to the ongoing
parental conflict. What is an online discussion in comparison to that?
2
George
Edit Reply Share
2 days ago
Julie, according to the documents that you released, on multiple occasions you tried to control
your husband by threatening to kill yourself. You even grabbed him by the neck and shoulders
and shook him once. You were trying to get him to cancel his travel plans. These things throw
up red flags to me. Threatening suicide especially is a classic behavior of emotional abusers.
Your defenders say you were justified in these actions as a means of escaping abuse, but I
can't get a sense of what you were "escaping." This was well before the time Tony pushed you.
How were you being abused at the time of your suicide threats? How was your mental health at
those times?
(Yes, this is a throwaway account. I don't want to be Google-stalked by SCCL people for
asking questions that Must Not Be Asked. But I am sincerely interested in your answers,
because I once had an unhealthy friendship with a woman who went through a period of
threatening to kill herself. It was excruciatingly painful, and we weren't even dating: we were
only friends. She was *not* of sound mind at those times, and yet, she recovered and would
pass any exam with flying colors today.)
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Stephen M. > George
2 days ago
Man, this is great, it's not popular to ask questions of those who are victims but you sir are a
tough enough guy to take on the victim! Good for you! Oh I know you say "You aren't blaming
here" but come on, wink-wink, we can all tell, it's totally her fault.
When you get done here can you stop down to the local woman's shelter and we can finally,
FINALLY, ask all those women what they did to deserve their abuse? They need to know that
despite their treatment, they were probably asking for it right? Man, I'm so excited we finally
get to let all these self-righteous victims have it! Lets ask them how their mental health was
after years of abuse! Then after that we can go down to the rape crisis center and ask all those
ladies what they were wearing that was just asking for them to get raped!
Screw this. I'm out. I can't handle this conversation anymore. Julie, I love you and support you
and you know where to find me. I can't handle the victim shaming and blaming. It's absolutely
disgusting. You people easily one of the least Jesus-like group I've encountered, give me the
assholes over at SCCL anyway, at least they give 2 shits about victims.
3
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CurtisMSP > George
2 days ago
Suicide ideation can have many causes, including being the victim of ongoing
psychological abuse. The fact that someone declares a desire to commit suicide tells
you nothing about the cause of that ideation. More analysis of the person is needed -more than can be done by reading blog posts.
Reply Share
Tim Wilson-Brown > George
2 days ago
George, you might have this the wrong way around - what if Julie was being emotionally
abused for years by someone with diagnosed, untreated narcissistic personality
disorder?
As you've acknowledged, this context changes Julie's reactions into adaptive
responses, not initiation or continuation of an abusive relationship.
Want confirmation? (Ragnarok as well?)
Read the psych reports on Julie and Tony released by R L Stollar.
https://rlstollar.wordpress.co...
Edit Reply Share
George > Tim Wilson-Brown
2 days ago
Tim, I did read those reports and they are clear. Tony didn't cause Julie's
behavior. From Denise Wilder's psych eval of Julie:
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"Julie Jones appears to be a highly emotional individual, with a tendency toward

dramatic expression of those emotions, particularly when she believes she has
been wronged.
These tendencies have most likely been exacerbated in her marriage to Tony
Jones, simply because he made himself unavailable, both physically and
emotionally, and Ms. Jones has felt the need to turn up her emotional volume to
gain any response from him.
In turn, her dramatic and aggressive expression has most likely exacerbated
Tony Jones' tendency to keep his emotional distance and act unilaterally rather
than address her emotional needs and negotiate with her.
THIS IS NOT TO SAY EITHER HAS CAUSED THE OTHER'S BEHAVIOR. Rather,
it seems that, as in many marriages, this couple's pre-existing tendencies have
become polarized, with each manifesting a greater degree of the behavior than
they might if the other did not behave so oppositely."
1
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Dee Parsons > George
2 days ago
I would caution everyone who is making a judgement that Julie (or

anyone else for that matter) was not suicidal. Even Denise Wilder's report
quoted here does not make that judgement.
There is a big dierence between being emotional and being suicidal.
Many suicides have occurred after the escalation, over years, of dicult
emotions. The break can come quickly: the proverbial "straw that broke
the camel's back."
Also, some people threaten suicide for years, building up the courage to
carry through with the threat. There are parents out there who weathered
the suicidal threats of their kids, gotten them help and thinking all was
now well, who are shocked when years down the line they do just that.
3
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2 days ago
I think you're splitting hairs between causation and relational polarization

(edit: reaction). And this section doesn't address abuse at all - that's in
various other sections, where the psych acknowledges evidence of an
aair (which Tony Jones continued to deny), and evidence of physical
abuse. There are also detailed discussions of Tony Jones' behaviour, that
as far as I can tell could be called abusive.
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Guest > George
2 days ago
George, I am of sound mind. This website is way too glitchy to discuss such a matter. It keeps
freezing. I suggest you educate yourself on NPD and abuse. Gas lighting and what that
diagnosis coupled with the diagnosis of "sadistic" traits entails. I was never suicidal and would
never have killed myself not on my darkest days. Fed up with my philandering husbandwith 3
kids under age 5 at home 250 days a year and he didn't give a sh*& and called me paranoid
and insecure....yes. I doubt your "concern" for me. Just read the 22 page psych eval. It will give
you nightmares.
1
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Tim Wilson-Brown > Guest
2 days ago
So I'm not the only one?

Disqus sucks for people on older devices, mobiles, and people who zoom text
in.
The Patheos implementation in particular interacts badly with their shitload of
ads.
Talk about the privilege of participating in conversation...
2
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Jmac6301 > Tim Wilson-Brown
2 days ago
Disqus is terrible.
1
Ragnarok > George
Reply Share
2 days ago
In which documents that Julie released did you find an account of Julie threatening to
kill herself in order to control Tony Jones? Please cite your references.
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Guest > Ragnarok
2 days ago
He doesn't have any. This is word-for-word the empire playbook. Every argument
thrown at me tonight is SCARY word-for-word from my abuser. He has coached
his empire well. The only problem is....he is an abuser with a diagnosis and he
can't run from that.
2
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George > Ragnarok
2 days ago
RL Stollar, from Denise Wilders psychological evaluation of McMahon: (After the

grabbing-him-by-the-neck-and-shoulders incident) "Mrs. Jones reported telling
her husband that she felt like she was dying, and wishes she could just vaporize,
that she could simply step o the balcony she was standing on and end her
pain."
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And there was another incident where she threatened to kill herself in front of her
kids. I am realizing now that was from McLaren's statement on the matter. I do
wonder if it's mentioned in the docs Julie gave Stollar, in the parts Stollar chose
not to publish.
1
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Ragnarok > George
2 days ago
Speaking as one who has read Julie's documents in full, I can attest to
the fact that, no, there is no mention of Julie attempting to manipulate
Tony through threats of self-harm. The incident you mention is regarding
the moment when her marriage was utterly disintegrating before her eyes,
and you expect her to be stoic? You are literally taking an account of an
instant of profound despair, and you're attempting to twist it into support
for your spurious claim that Julie engaged in a consistent manipulation of
Tony Jones via threats of suicide.
Is it truly necessary to point out to you that a single expression of despair
in the midst of that sort of tumult, while serious, also doesn't meet the
definition of abuse? In fact, when one considers the context of not only
that one statement but also the things which led up to it, it becomes
incredibly dicult to see Tony's characterization of her statement in any
other light than that of pure vindictiveness and service of self. His
interpretation apparently not only seems plausible to you but the most
plausible of all available interpretations? Tell me, are you this harsh when
interpreting others' meaning and intentions in every aspect of your life or
just online when you don't have to see the person you're attempting to
crush?
In a perfect world, Julie wouldn't have made that statement, but then in a
perfect world Julie wouldn't have been faced with that situation. It's so
telling that so many men wish to focus on a statement such as the one
you bring up while utterly ignoring the psychologist's determination that,
based on her evaluations of both parties, Julie McMahon is not mentally
ill, Tony Jones has narcissistic personality disorder (which he admits
himself), and that Tony had engaged in a pattern of shaming and
manipulation during his attempts to persuade Julie that she was wrong
about the aair he was clearly having at the time.
Let me give you the quote directly from Dr. Wilder's evaluation of Julie:
"Each feels betrayed by the other: Ms. Jones by her husband's physical
and emotional abandonment and extramarital aair, Mr. Jones by his
wife's rejection of his celebrity ministry career.
"That being said, Ms. Jones' angry and hurt feelings are normal and
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predictable under the circumstances. So is her outrage at being told she

was mentally ill for (accurately) suspecting her husband was developing a
romantic relationship outside the marriage. However, her expression of
these feelings is poorly regulated and, in its dramatic extremity,
counterproductive. A significant part of the energy behind her angry
expression is likely to derive from her own prior eorts to convince herself
she shouldn't feel angry or suspiciousafter talking herself out of her
feelings, finding out that they were justified makes the feelings even
bigger."
I know that's a big chunk to deal with, George, but I have to ask whether
or not you took note of the dierent bases for each party's grievance?
Julie was hurt deeply by the fact that Tony had essentially abandoned his
family both physically and emotionally in addition to carrying on an illicit
aair with another woman. Tony was deeply hurt because Julie thought
his celebrity was less important than his family.
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Guest > George
2 days ago
Again, George. This is all lost on anyone who does not fully understand
the intricacies of an NPD diagnosis. Clearly, you do not. And your
sensitivity towards an abuse victim is disgusting. This is part of the
problem. Victim blaming instead of advocacy. Yes, my husband was
having an aair and calling me crazy for knowing it! It was god awful. May
you never know such evil.
Reply Share
2 days ago
So what if it is?
Context is vital in understanding emotional abuse cases.
And if you've read the psych reports, you've read that Julie was under
incredible strain from gaslighting, and temporarily struggling to cope. I
think anyone would under those circumstances.
Edit Reply Share
Guest > Tim Wilson-Brown
2 days ago
There seems to be no shortage of ignorance amongst NBW fan base

regarding victims of abuse. I am not surprised as I sought her help after
my shoulder was torn and she hung up on me.
2
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George > Guest
2 days ago
What torn shoulder?
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From the RL Stollar documents ("Fact #5", From the Hospital Follow-Up
Report on Julie McMahons Injuries from October 22, 2008):
"We did send her for an MRI, which showed NO ROTATOR CUFF TEAR."
1
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Guest > George
2 days ago
No one ever claimed a rotated cu tear...George.
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George > Guest
2 days ago
Quoting you, two posts up: "There seems to be no shortage of ignorance

amongst NBW fan base regarding victims of abuse. I am not surprised as
I sought her help after my SHOULDER WAS TORN and she hung up on
me."
If your rotator cu wasn't torn, what was? Why isn't the tear mentioned in
the hospital report?
1
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Guest > George
2 days ago
Are you a physician George? My doctor called it a tear in the tissue

caused by being thrown to the ground on a cement patio. George. God, I
hope you never interact with victims. You are not a good person. This is
sick what you are doing. Isn't it interesting you just want to try and
discredit me but don't care to discuss an aair, cover up, abuse or 7
years of abuse? This is so clearly the attempts to control the narrative.
The truth is out and the empire can't stand it! Doctors don't give
cortisone shots if there was nothing wrong George!
1
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Dee Parsons > Guest
2 days ago
Cortison shots indicate a significant injury. Physicians are hesitant to give

cortisone shots on a routine basis because it increases the risk of
osteonecrosis amongst other things. http://www.mayoclinic.org/test...
2
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Guest > George
2 days ago
It is in medical terminology. George. Or should I just address you directly

as my abuser?
1
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Guest > George
2 days ago
You said rotated cu. It was explained to me and shown in the MRI it is a
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tear in my shoulder. Why else would I have been given a series of

cortisone shots. The doc reads a medical terminology. It was a tear in the
tissue. You sound frighteningly like my abuser. And nothing like a good
person. Why would you try to discredit a domestic violence incident?!
Who does that?! What could possibly motivate such a person? Yuck!
1
bethanyann73
Reply Share
2 days ago
It might've helped that this conversation took place on a blog where the host wasn't jumping in
deleting and correcting people constantly. It seemed to allow some new faces to find a voice
and share some information we (or at least I) hadn't heard yet. The thing about Julie being
actually from a wealthy family or having SUVs and vacations and all that isn't relevant to the
abuse allegations in the long run, but I was interested in what Michael had to say about how
seriously they researched the allegtions. It was interesting to hear how the actual court
documents diered from some of the perceptions out there. I think the litigation thing, about
how Julie has filed as many motions as Tony, was really interesting and so was the fact that
Tony was never held in contempt over child support. I tried the link on the former and those
numbers checked out, so that's changed a portion of how I was thinking about this. This thing
is endless.
2
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Guest > bethanyann73
2 days ago
I could not have filed a motion for contempt if he has not reached contempt. Sandra
Filipo the county attorney would not have been present in the court room. You are
reading a slice of a large complicated puzzle and without context. I could not care less if
you find me credible. what is interesting is the lengths to which commenters would like
me to be discredited. My abuser and I both know what happened and how. That's why
he works tirelessly to silence me. 7 years later.

Kandace
Reply Share
2 days ago
Oh I also wanted to say thanks to Tim Wilson-Brown for his transparency. He is one of the
people others have asked about too, I think because of how devoted he has been to sharing
these allegations and I was glad to see his posture as he came in and shared his own story. It
sounds like he does not know Julie or Tony or any of the other participants in this story
personally, and has not spent time with them in real life (which really, in hindsight, seems kind
of obvious since he lives in Australia, but I guess it never hurts to verify). He made it known
down the thread that he followed a website where these allegations were posted and that he'd
been a friend of Rachel Held Evans, which led him to ask questions about this on Twitter, but it
wasn't from personal experience as much as it was from what he called his unexpected,
reluctant position as an online advocate. I really appreciated him clarifying how he got involved.
Thanks again, Tim!
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Tim Wilson-Brown > Kandace
2 days ago
I'm sorry, Kandace, I was unclear.

I had read Rachel Held Evans' blog and learnt from her (less recent) blog posts how to
appropriately handle abuse by believing victims.
I am not her friend, I just follow her on Facebook and used to read her blog. I think she
might have blocked me on twitter, or at least I don't see much from her there.
4
Edit Reply Share
Guest > Kandace
2 days ago
Kandace, are you an investigative reporter or do you just pose as one on abuser-friendly
blogs? Any legit reporter would answer that question and they wouldn't go trolling for
information on someone else blog. Are you not going to answer my basic questions?
Some have speculated as to your agenda. So I will just ask.
1
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Kandace > Guest
2 days ago
I'm not a reporter at all and I'm not posing as one. I just agreed that there was an
area we could fill in with more information that no one had covered yet and I am
a big believer in letting in as much light as possible. :) It's been great to connect
with people and hear how they came to this story though.
3
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Guest > Kandace
2 days ago
I have been trying to drag this into the light for 7 years. what area needs
more information? obviously, I have a lot of knowledge about the topic.
2
Kandace
Reply Share
2 days ago
Wow. A girl can't go anywhere around here, can she? I've had some dinner and a nap though
and am feeling refreshed from my earlier post. I appreciate the encouraging emails I've
received. I can't believe all that has been added. I just spent an hour reading Michael's
exchange with Julie. I am so thankful he felt courageous enough to come on here and share
about his company's findings related to these allegations. They certainly added some
important questions and highlighted a few areas where some seemed to be basing their ideas
on incomplete research. His findings from the courts were really important to the fair treatment
of all in this conversation and if you haven't read them, I encourage you to do so.
I also appreciated Julie interacting with Michael as much as she did. She obviously has found
her voice and broken free of any silencing and it's good to see her confidently sharing her
feelings and being heard.
4
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Guest > Kandace
2 days ago
Are you going to contact me or not? Let's begin this thorough and diligent investigation.
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I disagree with you completely that court documents tell the story of an abuse victim.
Especially a diagnosed NPD. Anyone who understands this knows exactly what I am
talking about. So, if this is you just hammering more Michael-narrative. I am out.
However, if you are in Minneapolis and actually want to go over this with a fine tooth
comb. Let's do this.
3
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Kandace > Guest
2 days ago
Oh I am not contacting anyone so far, Julie, and it almost looks like I might not
need to! We are using already published data to verify what we can and I'm
welcoming others to contact me. A lot of people are voluntarily answering our
questions and others have emailed too. You can send me anything you'd like to
same as anyone else and I'd be MORE THAN HAPPY to read it! :) Have a great
night!
1
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Guest > Kandace
2 days ago
But you aren't contacting me? That's strange. Are you in Minneapolis?
You are launching an investigation and the victim is asking to meet and
you say no? Who is "we?" I am working with writers as well and can save
you the hassle of thousands of pages of docs and reports. First, are you
legit? What publication? Or aliation? How are you funded? Why do you
care? Again, are you in Minneapolis?
2
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Kandace > Guest
2 days ago
Oh sorry if that wasn't clear for some reason. We were just asking people
who have been publishing the allegations to share with us where they
were coming from and how they came to the conversation like Danica,
KT, and Tim and others have because that was something that people
were asking about and it wasn't covered in all the other stu you posted
or that Stollar or Brad or anyone else put up. It's not a full blown
investigation. We'll leave that for the pros!! xoxo
1
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Danica > Kandace
2 days ago
... and who are *you*? Where are *you* coming from?
This is honestly the strangest conversation I have witnessed online in a
long time. And that's including the comment section in a Tea Party page I
follow. It feels like one person speaking using multiple identities. It's just.
So. Weird.
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Stephen M. > Danica
2 days ago
Yeah, this is just fucking nuts. The lengths people are going to to discredit
a victim here is mind blowing. You people make me ashamed to call
myself a christian.
Reply Share
Guest > Kandace
2 days ago
who is "we?"
1
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Kandace > Guest
2 days ago
The people commenting in the thread when we discussed this and those
that volunteered to help in the thread. :)
1
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Guest > Kandace
2 days ago
Interesting. What do you hope to find? And why do you care? I just know
there are actual investigative reporters/writers that get paid a lot of money
to comb over 7 years of history and wondering whats your angle? You are
on NBW blog so obviously you are vested in clearing abuse allegations?
Or what? Or like Michael who just spent 5 hours trying to discredit a
victim. BUT "he doesn't even know him."
1
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Guest > Guest
2 days ago
hello? why do they all go silent the minute I ask to have 100%
transparency and in real life conversation and meetings. Jay Bakker and I
had a pleasant in real life conversation recently. I asked to meet and go
over my documents. Nope. Can't do it. He has been well groomed by the
NPD.
2
No_6
Reply Share
2 days ago
What if my analysis and gut is that everyone is a liar in this, to some extent? I've read virtually
everything since it broke last September: NakedPastor, TWW, Stollar, the works. This cluster
cannot be resolved.
--False hope gets oered to Julie (Hayward, Drury, Parsons)
--Exaggerated celebrity levels everywhere (JoPa group's own PR, those who criticize anyone
JoPa group but also inadvertently fuel JoPa's inflated sense of self)
--Other avenues left unexplored (not referring to obvious trolls BigBrowner and drea)
Tony rolls how NPD rolls. None of this matters.
2
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CurtisMSP > No_6
2 days ago
You are right that this whole thing can ve explained by NPD. But that doesn't make the
whole thing a lie. It is not a lie that people who tried to speak warnings were shamed,
silenced, deleted and blocked. That is fact, and continues to day. Sure, that is what
NPD does, but the others should know better.
This reveals a flaw in the emergent / celebrity ministry model. With no ecclesiastical
authority, a preacher can hide essential information, and do anything they want. Not
much dierent in operation than Mark Driscoll or Franklin Graham, just dierent
packaging.
Reply Share
Guest > No_6
2 days ago
It CAN be resolved if the xian progressives who spout about justice and reconciliation
actually applied their words to this real life situation instead of running and hiding. Yes,
YOU NBW. They have chosen to enable an abuser and protect their pockets.
1
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No_6 > Guest
2 days ago
No. The burden lies on Tony to resolve the harm he has done to you and your
family. This will not happen. The burden on Nadia and Rachel is to go about their
business ethically (which they are not doing), but that will not happen. The
burden on the entire community is to stop feeding the beast that is JoPa. This
also will not happen.
3
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CurtisMSP > No_6
2 days ago
I agree it won't resolve as long as most people believe Tony. If you read
Nadia or RHEs blog, most people think tony is ok and his critics are
crazy. As long as the celeb preacher network can keep up that image, it
will go on. It will only stop when enough people speak up and are heard.
Reply Share
Guest > No_6
2 days ago
You get it.
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No_6 > Guest
2 days ago
I'm possibly the only true pessimist standing in your corner. Which
probably doesn't resemble or feel like a "standing in your corner".
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Guest > No_6
2 days ago
It's a holy mess. I'd run away from home if I could. BUT this is exactly
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what 7 years post divorce with a sick and twisted NPD looks like. I have
stood on Doug's front doorstep and begged him to make him STOP.
Doug Pagitt could....one of the few uniquely positioned to put an end to
the hell. But he enables instead. They all do. Meanwhile, endorsing each
others books and events. It's gross.
2
MichaelOP04 > No_6
Reply Share
2 days ago
I think it matters because it impacts real people but I am starting to wonder if it can be
resolved online.
Reply Share
Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
You seem to be trying to discredit the victim pretty enthusiastically for the past 5
hours. And yet, I oered to meet and talk by phone and you evade.
1
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MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
I've responded to this a number of times, Julie, but you are free to add
anything new to this conversation and I will listen diligently. Your entire
tactic seems to be to demand I say exactly what you want me to as if I'm
reading from a script you're writing and that's just not how I like to
interact with people. I respect where you're coming from, I've read all the
allegations you made on RLS, DH, TWW etc, and I understand we don't
come to it from the same place, but I'm trying to patiently and kindly
extend some graciousness to you to understand you of course are going
to have strong feelings that don't align with mine.
2
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Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
We come at from exactly the same place. Abuses occurred and occur
still. I have documents. So, you can NOT defend one slice of the pie and
pretend there isn't 3/4 left unexamined. No, you don't get to do that. Not
to this victim and not to anyone the church has mowed over for financial
preservation. No! You and your people did NOT do due diligence. Not
even close. That we are in agreement on. Otherwise, I would have been
contacted and documents exchanged. We can go round and round but
that fact remains abuse happened and it is not okay.
1
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No_6 > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
Everything impacts real people. But methods matter, not just in terms of online
interactions.
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Guest
Reply Share
2 days ago
But Michael, you just spent 4 hours defending a "guy I don't even know."
Reply Share
MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
I don't know Tony or you and I have never spoken to either of you about the subject, a
fact that I disclosed from the very beginning. That's why I am not defending either he or
you nor am I accusing you, but am sharing from the careful investigation I and others on
my team took the time to do in order to try to weigh all these things carefully and make
the best decision for our organization without compromising our consciences. I have
listened to your opinion today and interacted with you respectfully and I understand why
you would have such strong feelings about this, however, in my conscience I cannot
bring myself to accuse someone when my very detailed research has not surfaced
sucient evidence to do so. That is how I balance the sensitivity to victims and yet hold
seriously my responsibility to uphold ethical standards in the way I respond to
allegations.
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Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
I have not felt sensitvity from you. As a victim I am letting you know that. You
delighted in writing about the arrest and yet you have no clue about the context
or facts regarding that event. It was classic gas lighting. It was my parenting day
and he refused to bring them home. Keeping them days extra. I knew it was a
set up and it was. 3 squad cars waiting and his police chaplain friends at the
ready. He has a pre-written document asking a judge to flip custody because
their mother is in jail. That is what the professionals called "diabolical" because it
was nothing short of diabolical while 3 kids watched in horror. It was denied
because judges understand narcissist unlike a church committee.
Reply Share
MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
I read your much more detailed allegations of the arrest on the DH site.
That case obviously played out or is playing out (I'm not sure which) after
the event in question, so we did not allow it to discolor our view of you in
any way. We weren't trying to make a character judgment or to act like
police or court ocials. We were just trying to make a decision 7 years
later based on the significant documents available to us. I am pretty sure
nothing I say will satisfy you, but again, I do wish you well and am glad
you have people to come around you and aid you in your journey.
2
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Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
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You should make a character judgement of a man who stages an arrest

with 3 kids watching to try and flip custody and using a trumped up
harassment order that I did not go and get thrown out because I did not
have a lawyer. sits on it for 6 months WAITING then on a Friday calls his
chaplain buddy Joy and (so I would be in jail all weekend) pounces. You
should make a character judgement of that, but haven't. This was June
2013. This is happening in real time. Not 7 years ago. The abuse does not
end. NOTHING seems to satisfy you into realizing you just backed an
abuser.
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MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
I have already politely addressed why the investigation we conducted

doesn't lead me to the conclusions you wish. I do wish you luck! I will be
praying for you and feel convicted for not praying more for those involved
until now. Thanks for the discussion and perspective.
1
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Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
And I will push back again that if you find yourself again as church
leaders (white male middle age?) again in a room discerning another
white male middle age....pick up the phone (as the smart, informed
institutions did) and call the victim. testimony from those inside his cult
does not count as character witnesses. reading the stacks of docs he
wanted you to read and conveniently omitted the ones that fill in the 3/4
of the story does NOT count as diligence. I do not need nor want prayers
from an enabler. That may sound harsh but not contacting the victim
makes you an enabler. What I want is advocacy for those who have been
marginalized and silenced by empires such as this for centuries. The
people in power mowing over the ones without a platform. It's wrong and
the church should be a safe haven but it's the opposite. Less prayer more
honest and courageous advocacy for victims.
Reply Share
CanIbeFrank > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
Michael--I for one will say that i appreciate what you've brought to this
conversation and the respect with which you've done so. I'm see value in you
and your colleagues reaching a decision the way you did.
2
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Guest > CanIbeFrank
2 days ago
you agree that abuse should be determined by NOT contacting the victim
but by reading court documents? reputable institutions disagree with you.
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Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
Like I said, "Do better." For the next victim that you feel you did due diligence for.
Rachel said the same thing and ironically was given the same court stack.
"detailed research" would ALWAYS include contacting the victim.
1
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MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
I promise you I will try to do my best and continue to do better. Again, I

did not contact the accused either as it is clear that those inside the
marriage would have a stake in swaying us and we do not see ourselves
as judges of people's marriage. In our role we felt the best thing to do
was roll up our sleeves and do our homework and we did the very best
we could with that.
1
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Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
NOT ABOUT MARRIAGE.
Reply Share
MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
Agreed.
Reply Share
Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
Then why have you failed to mention and aair, cover up, mental illness,
and domestic abuse? you just spent hours talking about child support
while not understanding what was left out of the ocial docs.
1
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MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
I've mentioned literally every one of these things in the comments below. I
know I can't satisfy you though because you want me to align with your
own feelings and convictions around your experience and for my role in it,
the records just don't allow me to do that despite the respectful tone of
our intereactions and my hope that life will bring you good in the future.
2
MichaelOP04
Reply Share
2 days ago
I have presented some findings which in my mind raise questions around these allegations, but
I want to encourage people just coming to the conversation not to be satisfied with summaries
like the flippant one oered below. If you want to understand the breadth of this thing, the
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questions being raised, and Julie's many responses, you can't just take the cli notes from
BigBrowner. It doesn't do anyone justice and it represents the worst of the reasons people
come to a place like this to glory in someone else's pain.
4
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BigBrowner
2 days ago
Even I didn't think things were going to go this far. This thing has come unglued.
Julie turns out to be the daughter or wealthy oil family.
Julie's sister is married to a senator worth tens of millions.
Julie has or at least had (based on her own admission) a nanny and she bought/leased SUVs
for herself and her nanny by her own admission.
Julie DID go on a Mexican resort vacation while people were raising money for her here.
Julie lives in a 350k house in a swanky neighborhood that is owned by her rich parents.
Tony Jones wasn't actually ever charged by the courts for being in arrears.
Tony didn't litigate Julie into poverty. Actually she filed as many motions as he did and also had
a high priced lawyer from the beginning.
I can't even keep track of it all but damnnnnnn. Things in Edina seem to stay in Edina...until
they finally find there way to the internet. Go ahead and keep saying no one should ask
questions. The more you call for silence, the more that seems to come out.
Reply Share
Guest > BigBrowner
2 days ago
Big Browner? Was just a drive by? I answered and corrected each and every false and
distorted accusation. I'll say it again. What else do you got?
Reply Share
Guest > BigBrowner
2 days ago
BigBrowner with 1 follower. I just refuted each and every allegation. What else do you
got?
Reply Share
Guest > BigBrowner
2 days ago
My ex despite the divorce decree tried to sabotage my grad school by registering the
kids who live with me full time for traveling soccer, hockey, baseball and I HAD to hire
someone to drive them while I worked and went to school. He paid not a penny to help.
1
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Guest > BigBrowner
2 days ago
His lawyer is $450 an hour. Mine was $120.
Reply Share
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Guest > BigBrowner
2 days ago
We were homeless when my ex despite a court order to pay the mortgage drove it into
foreclosure while buying a home for he and his mistress
Reply Share
Guest > BigBrowner
2 days ago
I live in a home owned by my mother. I do not own a home. When I get through grad
school I will pay rent to her.
1
Reply Share
Guest > BigBrowner
2 days ago
The generous fund set up by good people helped keep my lawyer alive for a little while
but I owe over $20,000 and they dropped me.
1
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Guest > BigBrowner
2 days ago
Paradise Village in Mexico is a 3 star resort. It was great to get away with my two kids.
The oldest was take unlawfully 3 1/2 months ago. I cannot aord to fight to get him
back.
3
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Dee Parsons > Guest
2 days ago
You not only needed that rest but you deserved that rest, Julie. I am so glad that
two of your kids joined you. It should have been three.
5
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Guest > Dee Parsons
2 days ago
My son won't even speak to me. He has been 100% alienated. It is heart
breaking. The last thing he said was verbatim what his dads lawyer said,
"I want all bloggers contacted and every disparaging word deleted." The
empire is in shock. They successfully bullied, threatened and intimidated
bloggers and controlled the narrative for years. Using your own son...only
a diagnosed narcissist would stoop that low.
4
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Adrenalin Tim > Guest
2 days ago
I'm so sorry, Julie. You don't deserve that.

2
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Guest > Adrenalin Tim
2 days ago
But according to the narcissist that is exactly what I deserve. The story
finally got out and for that I must pay. He knows the most important thing
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in the world to me is my children so he took an impressionable teenage

boy and turned him against his mother. He is a victim of on line abuse.
Only a diagnosed NPD could pull something so wretched.
2
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Adrenalin Tim > Guest
2 days ago
It is wretched, and I won't give my consent with my silence. You're not

alone, Julie. ((hug, if you want it))

Guest > BigBrowner
Reply Share
2 days ago
I do not have a lawyer. I cannot aord one.
Reply Share
Guest > BigBrowner
2 days ago
Big Browner? Are you in the area? I have oered to many to meet and I will gladly show
you my tax return.
1
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Guest > BigBrowner
2 days ago
swanky? I have section 8 housing rentals in my backyard. clearly you arent familiar with
my street. my ex told my son your mom lives in the ghetto.
2
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MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
In my opinion, this guy is here for his own entertainment. He isn't trying to
understand or add anything helpful. I think people can read your lengthier
exchanges with myself and others to get the full story beyond his cli notes. ;)
Reply Share
Guest > BigBrowner
2 days ago
He was brought in Contempt of Court in a Motion my first one filed. He owed over
$50,0000
1
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MichaelOP04 > BigBrowner
2 days ago
Even though this is technically correct, I don't think the tone or flippantness is helpful.
Reply Share
Alan Molineaux > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
How can you say it is technically correct when Julie has answered every point
1
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MichaelOP04 > Alan Molineaux
2 days ago
Hey Alan, I think everyone reading who has the time is going to have to read
through the many exchanges Julie has had with people on here and make their
own judgment. I've covered where I landed pretty extensively. I'm not expecting
you to share my opinion, but I also can't in good conscience lay it down because
not everyone agrees with it.
2
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Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
smell a rat. first class rat.

3
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MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
Ha. Well at least I get to be a first class rat. If I'm ever stupid enough to
get my beautiful wife to divorce me, I'm sure she won't rank me that high
on the food chain. :)
Reply Share
Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
again with the wife. just. stop.

1
Guest > BigBrowner
Reply Share
2 days ago
My generous friend gave me a week at her timeshare. We flew sun country and were
lucky to find $250 flights
3
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Dee Parsons > Guest
2 days ago
One of TWW's readers who contributed a large sum of money for Julie wanted
her to use it for something like a vacation or a spa day. I am so glad you did get
away, Julie. So will most of our readers.
7
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Guest > Dee Parsons
2 days ago
It was so good for the soul. walking the beach with my daughter. enjoying
my youngest son. they have endured their entire lives the animosity
between their parents. This is the first Easter since 2008 that I have not
sent him a heart felt olive branch letter pleading him top STOP for the
sake of our children. STOP litigating. STOP. I think I have ocially given
up and it is haters frothing at the mouth like Big Borwner that let me know
the empire has no shortage of willing puppets. Thank you, again. Dee,
you and your readers have been such a source of encouragement for me.
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Thank you.
Reply Share
MichaelOP04 > Dee Parsons
2 days ago
Thanks for adding this, Dee. I don't think it's wrong for Julie to take a
vacation. My wife would kill me if I didn't quickly agree every mom
deserves one. :)
Reply Share
MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
There's nothing wrong with that. He's clearly coming here for entertainment.
Reply Share
Guest > BigBrowner
2 days ago
a mazda. leased with a penny sale.
Reply Share
Guest > BigBrowner
2 days ago
I had to get a lease on a second car and pay $250 a month to get 3 kids to all of their
activities with a driver/sitter while I work 2 jobs and go to school
Reply Share
Guest > BigBrowner
2 days ago
I absolutely had to get childcare for I was working 2 jobs and going to school. One of
my jobs was at an agency and I was able to get a sitter for 30% o and paid her $175 a
week for 3 kids. No I received not a dime of childcare help from the father
Reply Share
Alan Molineaux > BigBrowner
2 days ago
You seem to have all the accuracy and honesty of a Fox News reporter
1
Reply Share
2 days ago
Nadia is now competing with David Hayward to have the longest Tony Jones thread.
She has decided to publically endorse Tony, and then not delete any comments. This
could go over 1000 posts. Anyone, including Nadia, could have predicted this would
happen.
4
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Tim Wilson-Brown > BigBrowner
2 days ago
"BigBrowner", welcome to Disqus and NBW's blog. I notice your account has 1
comment, your activity is private, and you're not using a typical given name name. Nor
do you link to any external social media accounts.
Page 90 of 196
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Do you feel like a sockpuppet?

5
Edit Reply Share
MichaelOP04 > Tim Wilson-Brown
2 days ago
Tim, do you mind me asking you, how you fit into this story? It was your tweet, I
think anyways, that alerted me to this thing to begin with.
Reply Share
Tim Wilson-Brown > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
Michael, I think I've now caught up with your background. This thread is
advancing at a rapid pace, and it's been a few days since I've read it (I
think there were only 20 posts back then.)
Yes, it was probably my tweet that alerted you, as I sent them to many
sponsors of JoPa. This was shortly after the WX15 / Why Christian
announcement. However, it's more likely you were sponsoring the earlier
Christianity 21 or Progressive Youth Ministry conferences.
I only received one response at the time from Sonoran Theological Group.
I'm glad others paid attention to the concerns that had been raised by
Julie and others about Emergent over a number of years.
My history: I was involved in the nakedpastor blog thread conversation
where Julie told her story. Despite much pressure from various Emergent
personalities, David Hayward has kept that thread up.
Then, Rachel Held Evans (who I had admired for years) announced the
WX15 / Why Christian conference, which, at the time, was curated by
Rachel and Nadia, but hosted by JoPa. They said:
"Why, in the wake of centuries of corruption, hypocrisy, crusades,
televangelists, and puppet ministries do we continue to follow Jesus?"
http://www.whychristian.net/ab...
Given the concerns I'd seen raised about Tony Jones, and the public
behaviour I'd seen from him and Doug Pagitt, I thought it was worth
asking questions about the allegations of corruption and hypocrisy in
emergent circles.
I thought Rachel and Nadia would welcome that sort of conversation,
even if it was about their own movement.
I could never have predicted the resultant explosion of concern and
reaction on all sides. I'm not even sure who asked the first questions they'd been floating around for years, but the nakedpastor blog and
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WX15 announcement seemed to be lightning rods for community

discontent.
2
Edit Reply Share
2 days ago
Okay, that actually helps a lot and fills in some blanks I'd been wondering
about for a while now.
So you have resonated with David Hayward's cartoons and had been a
fan of RHE, but you expected her and other progressive christians to
respond dierently which led you to ask questions. I did get from your
Twitter feed that you were a question asked by personality. I had also
noted back then that you lived in Australia, so I was curious as to whether
you were ever part of the emergent movement or perhaps knew Tony and
Julie or were even related to one of them but that doesn't seem to be the
case now. Is that correct?
1
Reply Share
2 days ago
No connection to either Tony or Julie before the nakedpastor blog in

September 2014. No connection to any church movement for the past
few years, progressive, emergent, or otherwise. I might have read Tony's
blog a few times, and I read a few progressive / emergent books years
ago.
Out of curiosity, what do you mean by "you were a question asked by
personality"?
Is there a word missing there?
1
Edit Reply Share
2 days ago
Oh whoops. Sorry, yeah. I meant question ASKER by personality.;) Just

meant it looks like you follow and RT a lot of activists about a wide range
of causes. I sort of guessed that you contacting me had something to do
with your drive for bringing voice to justice on the internet, but it does
answer some of my curiosities to know you don't actually know anyone
involved but were more motivated by the cause.
1
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Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
For a guy who "doesn't even know him" he is doing background checks
on what organizations Tim likes? Dude, you are too much.
2
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MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
When he tweeted us directly, we read his tweets that day. That's about
the best I can do I'm afraid! :)
Reply Share
2 days ago
Yes, an unwitting, unexpected, and reluctant activist.

3
Edit Reply Share
2 days ago
I can't remember everything I read, but from the little I recall, it was a long
list of topics you were invested in advancing. Which is why I did consider
that you might be more of a big picture thinker and activist who got
turned onto this rather than someone on the ground in the thick of it.
You live in Australia, right? Never been. What are the causes you're most
passionate about?
Reply Share
CurtisMSP > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
A lot of the people most out spoken in their concerns are former fans,
including me.
Reply Share
MichaelOP04 > CurtisMSP
2 days ago
That makes sense.
Reply Share
Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
what do you want to know Michael? I find that an interesting question.

Why are you the "wife lovin' simple guy" spending hours defending "a
guy I don't even know." How do you fit in?
1
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MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
I don't defend a guy I don't know. I just won't accuse a guy I don't know
based on insucient evidence. I also won't be rude to a woman I don't
know even if she disagrees with me and calls me simple. I am not perfect,
but I've handled my tiny role with as much faithfulness and ethics as I can
and I am confident that our work was well worth it.
Reply Share
Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
Okay, so learn from this. Next time you are any part of discerning whether
Page 93 of 196
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10/04/2015 19:49
abuse happened. Ask the victim. That is what was done and upon
thorough investigation the institutions decided they care more about their
reputations. They also didn't have ticket sales, book deals, or other
inbred empire ties.
Reply Share
Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
for someone who is not defending you just spit back what he published
verbatim. And, for 4 hours with quaint quips about the "wife who can
cook" interspersed.
Reply Share
MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
It's hard to know how to best interact with you here, Julie, but I'm doing
my best. If I'm a little too homegrown or corny for you, that's okay, but I
am genuine and would like to think I could be myself here and be
welcomed.
Reply Share
Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
Then support and learn. That is the best support you can give a victim. If
you doubt and CLEARLY you do. Ask to see my evidence. That is what
reputable institutions do. And did. And then he was dropped. End of
argument. You think you did all you could. I don't. If you never contacted
the victim. Her life long friends and family. Then no. You didn't. You didn't
even read important reports. So, no. You didn't. You switch between
savvy litigator and a character on Swamp People so my radar on poser
enabler has been tripped. Contact me and lets talk by phone if you are a
real person on the up and up. Sadly, whenever I oer this not ONE calls
or contacts. Many actual human beings do....not posers and enablers.
1
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MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
Holy cow. Did you just respond by calling me a character on the swamp
people? Maybe it's comments like that which make reasonable people
not want to engage you on the phone.
Reply Share
Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
I actually really enjoy the show. It's hilarious. You called yourself
homegrown and Korny. Not me. Then don't. It seems "due diligence" of
abuse involves not contacting the victim in your thorough investigation
anyway. The event has come and gone. The checks have been cleared.
Page 94 of 196
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Reply Share
Dee Parsons > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
Michael, who is the *our* in your comment about "our work?"
Reply Share
MichaelOP04 > Dee Parsons
2 days ago
Hey Dee, I disclosed this from the beginning, but I know a lot of things
have got mixed up as people comment in dierent places. I was a
sponsor for a previous Jopa event and was contacted, I think by Tim
Wilson-Brown, and alerted to these allegations. My org has religious roots
and justice heritage so we took the allegations incredibly seriously. We
formulated hundreds of questions and talked to several people with
expertise beyond ourselves, and made the best decision we could. You
can read about the details in the other comments I've left, but that's the
gist of it. Thanks for seeking to understand.
1
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Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
BUT not the victim with the torn shoulder, police report and medical
records....give me a break!
Reply Share
MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
Our role was to investigate our org's place among a group of conference
attenders seven years after the events of these allegations and we went
above and beyond to consult experts, consult not just court documents
but court representatives who could help us interpret them, and even
spoke to people who had personal testimony to oer. I admit that there's
always going to be more someone could do, but based on our role in this
huge narrative, I believe we did a solid job of caring, showing sensitivity,
and desiring to base our decisions on ethical standards. I understand you
have strong feelings about how people should respond and I understand
why you would have them and again, I respect that.
1
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Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
I would LOVE to see the list of testimony? Funny no one asked for my
character refs or contacts. so who? Doug Pagitt the business partner?
People should respond like advocates and have professionals who know
what they are doing. Victim advocacy 101 you hear from the victim.
Reply Share
MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
Page 95 of 196
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10/04/2015 19:49
We actually did get the list from you inadvertently! It was the people you
repeatedly named as having apologized to you. My boss talked to I think
one or two of them, but I think he tried to talk to all of them and not all
were interested or he couldn't get contacts for them.
Reply Share
Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
Those are NOT my people. Those are Emergent people. Who apologized
for spreading the rumors having never even met me.
Reply Share
Dee Parsons > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
Thank you. I am getting a bit confused.

Guest > BigBrowner
Reply Share
2 days ago
Julie's brother in law ran for senator and lost. He comes from humble Nebraska
beginnings and was the first one to go to college. He did well. How does that help me
and my poverty?
1
Reply Share
Guest > BigBrowner
2 days ago
I will correct you line by line:

1. Julie is the great grand daughter of a man who sold his grocery store to get in on
spindle top oil well

MichaelOP04
Reply Share
2 days ago
I don't know who itsallasham is but the fact that they threw in that comment in the middle of a
tiring but meaningful exchange made me lighten up a little. Thanks for the comic relief! :)
Reply Share
Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
I'm not tired. I have been dealing with this flavored bs from the empires minions for 7
years...what else?
Reply Share
MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
Good! I'm glad. :) I've appreciated the chance to interact with you here.
Reply Share
Page 96 of 196
Disqus Comments
itsallasham
10/04/2015 19:49
2 days ago
I'm personally and professionally more oended that Pr. Bolz-Weber thinks this book is better than what
she learned in seminary. If that doesn't cause you to question her judgement...
4
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Guest > itsallasham
2 days ago
she hung up on me when I called her for help having been physically abused. I thought
surely this feminist will stand with me. Nope.
1
Reply Share
Tim Wilson-Brown > Guest
2 days ago
Feminist In Name Only?

Or is that, Fairweather Feminist?
1
Edit Reply Share
Guest > Tim Wilson-Brown
2 days ago
depends on the book deals and cross-endorsements.

1
MichaelOP04
Reply Share
2 days ago
I want to be clear about something else as this winds down (I think it's winding down?). I don't
care if Julie has a nanny or ten nannies or a whole fleet of
SUVs. I don't care if her dad is the president of the United States. I really don't. I have kids and
I know what it takes to raise them
with two full time parents and I would give nannies to every single mom
if it was up to me. So yep, I acknowledge bearing the majority
responsibility for raising children is rough, I am sympathetic
personally. My heart goes out to her. But when you combine all of this
with the cases that were still going forward at the time of our investiagation, one of which
involved criminal charges against Julie, it just wasn't as straight forward as people make
it out to be sometimes. We were honestly thanking ourselves for not making a snap judgment
based on what we found online because we found a lot of information never mentioned
on these sites without even trying that hard, while other stu we had to
really work and get help to understand correctly. But all in all, what we tried to do I ams ure
imperfectly is
an important part of balancing sensitivity to victims with
the need to provide ethical judgment and standards of verification.
4
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2 days ago
"Michael", welcome to Disqus and NBW's blog. I notice your account is relatively new,
Page 97 of 196
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10/04/2015 19:49
your activity is private, and you're not using a profile picture or your full name. Nor do
you link to any external social media accounts.
When you say "we had to go to several courts", who are "we"?
Much of the evidence has been laid wide open by Tony and other sources on the
internet. Why don't you read it to supplement those court documents?
These are my personal recommendations, but there are many more:
http://www.redletterchristians...
http://tonyj.net/wp-content/up...
(This is the 11-page second edition, the unacknowledged 12-page original is here - the
dierences are instructive.)
http://subversiveinfluence.com...
As an aside, the amount of unacknowledged editing and post removal that goes on
among emergent authors / founders (they don't like to be called leaders), can be
exhausting to try to keep up with.
4
Edit Reply Share
2 days ago
Tim, I'm not sure you've read this entire conversation based on this comment,
but all of this is clearly explained in my comments and I'm familiar with the
websites you've suggested including the now deleted portions. It is a pet peeve
of mine when people delete and remove things rather than standing behind them
so we can agree on that.
I actually am glad you joined the conversation though because as I mentioned
earlier before you arrived, it was your tweets I believe that alerted us about these
allegations in the first place. I've always wondered what your place is in the
story.
Reply Share
2 days ago
Thanks, Michael, as I said above, I am still catching up. This thing has
exploded in the last few days while I've not been watching.
Edit Reply Share
2 days ago
I appreciate that. I saw your answer in the other part of the conversation.
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This things a beast!

Reply Share

Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
Nope. I'm still here. I thought you only looked into family court? You keep moving the
discussion which tells me you are not this impartial compassionate bystander after all. I
detailed at great lengths the sadistic and diabolical staged arrest by his police chaplain
chili fest buddy (she was let go) at length on other places including David Hayward's
blog. How interesting of you to bring that up here....that really was his piece de
resistance to have me soun as a criminal to flip custody. Was there a conviction? No.
Was his sadistic plan to flip custody by running downtown with a pre-written doc citing
their mother is a criminal while 3 kids watched was denied. You didn't mention that.
Again, Michael. You have proven yourself a dutiful pawn here today. What else?
2
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MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
No I understand how you could lose track, but I said below in parentheses that
we had to go to several courts. I hear you using words like sadistic and
diabolical and I don't doubt that in your experience as an ex-wife (then wife) with
someone as self-confident as Tony who would have probably been functioning at
his most angry and depleted would experience it all as sadistic and diaboloical.
Unfortunately, the records available and the testimony of those that we could
access just don't create criminal abuse allegations, despite all the bad emotions
I have no doubt it brought down on you.
Reply Share
Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
those are words in the 22 page psych eval that you did not read as well
as other important documents. your lack of neutraility has cracked wide
open btw.
2
Reply Share
wordvixen > Guest
2 days ago
Right? "someone as self-confident as Tony". OMFG

Reply Share

Guest
2 days ago
Kandace? Where are you? And, Drea? Aren't we meeting at the coee shop to discuss?
Michael? Contact me. Hear my story. I keep oering and yet...crickets.
2
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MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
I don't understand this comment. I responded. I am pretty sure the others did too. Just
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because you make demands on us, doesn't mean that we are obligated to do every
single thing you would prefer when you would prefer. I am trying to be respectful here
and I genuinely do hope for your future well being so this is disturbing to see you
continue to try to spin our communication.
Reply Share
Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
Demand? I am oering to call you and answer all of your questions. You have
many facts wrong and were provided the snapshot that was wanted for you to
see and spew back. I am oering open dialogue and face-to-face conversations.
Spin? What? I think it is obvious you equate the diagnosis that was also given to
the likes of David Koresh as the common cold. This diagnosis frames everything
and for it to be brushed aside proves the ignorance here. I find that disturbing.
Reply Share
MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
I don't have any questions. I have read everything you said here and
elsewhere and I have welcomed you multiple times to say anything else
that you have not said or you think I may have missed. I have had respect
for how you've engaged here and I don't want to make this destructive.
David Koresh is clearly not equivalent to a common cold and I don't know
any human being who would ever say that. It's dicult to even know how
to respond here.
1
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Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
Then why treat NPD as the common cold? It is significant and serious
and clearly you don't get it.
Reply Share
MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
As I mentioned earlier when you made the Koresh comment, I definitely

do not treat NPD as the common cold. Not at all. I take all mental illness
very seriously and acknowledge the impact it must have had and still has
and it, as I stated previously, makes me empathetic but empathy or
hardship doesn't put non-existent files into the court records. We are
bound to do what we feel is honorable and ethical based on our very best
eorts.
1
MichaelOP04
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2 days ago
KT, I'm not sure this is productive and clearly I'm oending Julie, so I'll just say one more thing.
Tony doesn't have a criminal record of any kind, which before anyone jumps on me, yes, we
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did take seriously the bias Julie had accused Tony of etc.
But after talking to several people who deal with court cases from a variety of angles, they said
that if Child Protective Services had any credible reason to believe Tony was an abuser, if the
kids' guidance counselors or whatever had a credible reason to believe Tony was an abuser, if
the police or courts had any credible reason to believe Tony was an abuser, that Tony would
never have been able to come in later on and be granted partial custody. One advocate we
spoke to said that many testimonies go into court proceedings and that if the allegations that
Tony was an abuser were considered credible then that would be o the table even to this day.
Now I know that someone could still secretly abuse their wives in the confines of their own
home and nobody would know about it and I don't rule out that possibility. But when you start
getting into the he-said-she-said about what happened behind closed doors, you're making
judgment calls that frankly I think many people in these online conversations are less qualified
than all the many ocials from many agencies who actually legally have the power to make
them.
3
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2 days ago
Firstly, the absence of conclusive evidence for abuse is not the same as positive
evidence of the absence of abuse.
And secondly, it is very common that "someone could still secretly abuse their wives in
the confines of their own home and nobody would know about it". It's typical of many
forms of abuse that they occur in secret without evidence.
Edit Reply Share
2 days ago
I agree with your first statement. And obviously the second statement you
quoted was me, so that is my awareness as well. Tim, did you ever say where
you fit into the story? I know a lot of names have been thrown out here but since
you tweeted so much about this and targeted many aliates of Tony, it was
specifically you who got our attention and led us to do the research we did (so
good job there!) What is your place in the story that led you to tweet at us and
others like that?
Reply Share
KT Pridgen > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
So you don't give any stock to the court documents that state that Tony was gaslighting
Julie (telling her that her suspicions about an aair were because of a personality
disorder she didn't have) which is, by definition, a form of emotional abuse?
Is emotional abuse acceptable from a Christian leader as long as they toe the line in
other areas?
3
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MichaelOP04 > KT Pridgen
2 days ago
Yes. We do give stock to that. Our org takes our work very seriously. We believe
in the cause we promote and we would NEVER risk our org aligning itself with an
abuser if our careful research had revealed that. It would be detrimental to our
morals and our consciences and again, to be frank, we don't get so much out of
jopa that we would risk that. Given what we found however it did not concern us
at that level.
As for the aair, that also raised eyebrows. We looked carefully at the timelines
there too. In our world, it's not considered appropriate for example to begin a
relationship with someone when one is just living apart or separated even if this
is acceptable in the larger culture. It is considered honorable to wait until the
divorce is processed before moving on. That is how our most conservative
constituents would expect it to work anyways. I think even our progressive
constituents woudl see it that way. It seems like Tony likely began his relationship
with his current wife after their marriage had ended but possibly before the
divorce was finalized.
Emotional abuse is not acceptable by any party in any relationship period.
1
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2 days ago
I guess I'm confused as to why you are accepting emotional abuse in

Tony's case. Do you think gaslighting is not abuse or do you have more
information than the court-ordered psychologist had who seemed to
believe that Tony was indeed having an aair and dismissing Julie's
suspicions as the irrational fears of a mentally ill woman?
1
Guest > MichaelOP04
Reply Share
2 days ago
Because of his mental illness and violence I was awarded custody. You have not read
that report. You think you are an expert here but you are missing key elements. Most
glaringly your refusal to pause and grasp an NPD diagnosis. He does NOT have partial
custody. He has the minimum visitation allowed. Michael, you do not know what the hell
you are talking about. You also have not read the police reports nor the medical records.
So, I have wasted enough time with you. Again, I'm sure your event made money. Know
you stood on the back of an abused person.
4
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MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
We actually paused significantly and didn't even pay our sponsorship fee on time
so we could take the NPD diagnosis seriously. I do not at all think I am expert,
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but the expert I did talk to assured me it was a serious diagnosis. The courts we
spoke to were very clear that if there were credible allegations from any of the
agencies who interact with children in these scenarios that Tony would not have
been able to enter in later and get the custody arrangement at the time,
minimum or otherwise. It was not my event, either. I go to the event to share with
people what our good organization who accomplishes a lot of good in the world
does. I don't make any money from it.
2
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Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
You didn't pause long enough. The reputable institutions did. AND they
interviewed the victim and read her documents.
2
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MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
Again, no disrespect intended, but we aren't bound to do everything the

way you think it should be done. You get to do that. You control how you
respond, what you arm, and what you don't and I would NEVER
challenge your right to your opinions. But the flip side is that we have to
be responsible on a soul level and on a legal level for our own actions and
decisions and we took those incredibly seriously, more seriously than we
take even some of our day to day work which we are passionate about,
and we just didn't see things the exact same way you did in the end.
2
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Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
But you never contacted me. You only read what you were told to read
and what was distributed. The institutions knowing that is but a snapshot
and the only one the NPD wants known dug deeper. Asked the victim.
THAT was your failing.
Reply Share
MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
I never contacted Tony. I never contacted Doug. I never contacted Nadia.

I never contacted Brian. I never contacted Rachel. We purposefully
wanted to come to this using our own intellect and conscience and
common sense as our guide and not be emotionally swayed by any party
who might have a stake in trying to mislead us.
1
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2 days ago
Michael, it appears that you are ignoring the impersonal sway of power,
reputation, and gossip. These weapons have been eectively wielded by
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the powerful in the Emergent sub-culture for several years now.

I'd encourage you to objectively study the power dynamics and the
results of Tony Jones' influence over Emergent Christianity. And study
who has been left with the power, money, reputation, platform, and
followers - and who has been able to eectively silence their detractors
for years. This sort of behaviour deserves to be treated with the utmost
suspicion.
1
Edit Reply Share
2 days ago
Tim Wilson-Brown, I don't have any ties at all to Emergent and I couldn't
care if they fell o the planet. We've consulted real life experts in the
region, and sometimes in the city, and done in person research whenever
possible and it just doesn't match up. A lot of bad blood and one of the
worst marriages I've ever seen fall apart even from a distance but there's
a lot of credbiility gaps, whether you and I like it or not. I appreciate your
insights, but really, it takes about a half an hour of research to underline
why your simple encouragement doesn't represent the entire story.
1
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Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
Why are you so scared to contact me? The institutions interviewed me at

length. AND said drop him. You never even read the psych evals. THAT is
what does not add up. For all of this diligence you failed to get my
medical records, custody eval, police reports? WHY do you keep evading
this gaping hole in your credibility? You are on hour 5 of defedning a "guy
I don't even know." I call BS.
1
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MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
I actually am tired (I know you said you're not), but I don't want anyone to
feel like I just showed up, dropped a lot of information, and then took o
without being willing to listen and interact and answer questions. If it
makes you feel any better, I am getting some TV in while I type. Not
Swamp People though. Just reruns. ;)
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Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
Nope. Not one person contacted me. THAT is what does not add up.
Reply Share
2 days ago
I never claimed it represented the entire story. And plenty have done more
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than half an hour of research, myself included.

However, in the end, one must choose who to believe - or to believe noone. I acknowledge the credibility gaps. Life is simply like that when it
comes to complex situations. It gets even murkier when those in power
are busy suppressing conflicting viewpoints.
Based on, ironically, the (former / 2012 / Driscoll - TGC) teachings of
Rachel Held Evans, I prefer to believe victims. And based on my
understanding of Julie's particular circumstances, I believe her story.
(Notwithstanding that everyone makes mistakes and forgets things,
particularly under stress.)
Have you seen Brad Sargeant's work? He's put hundreds of hours into
documenting publicly available sources:
https://diagnosingemergent.wor...
Edit Reply Share
2 days ago
I can appreciate that. And I assumed you'd done some research to

include it in the list of things you are committed to advocating for online.
I've appreciated the nuance in your voice here that I didn't always pick up
in 140 characters (probably true of all of us). You're right. Things are
murky and this is the murkiest. My work requires detailed review and
documentation, but this has definitely blown the ceiling o most
"projects" I dive in to understand.
I get the preference to believe victims, but I think there is good reason to
balance our sensitivity to victims with our responsibility to verify
allegations in order to most ethically sort through things. I do get that all
of us have access to dierent information and come to this from dierent
angles and I don't expect everyone to agree, although I hope that anyone
who is putting this out in public has been thorough enough to see some
of the gaps in the information exposed by our research. I know I pick up
insights all the time from other people involved, including Brad who you
mentioned and if you ever do get the chance to read the whole thread
here, you'll see I mentioned him too.
Reply Share
2 days ago
This may well be part of the problem. It gives a sense that you believe
that you can be impartial when you are already connected to TG. Your
internal emotional posture already leans in that direction. In this regard
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speaking to the victim would have seemed a better option.

3
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2 days ago
2 days ago
2 days ago
I'm not sure what TG is.
Reply Share
Should have been TJ. Sorry
Reply Share
Oh sorry. I thought it might be a website like TWW. I don't know Tony and
came to Jopa through a dierent channel. My boss talked to someone at
a nearby college that serves a similar set of constituents as our org and
asked him what events they would recommend for an org like us and this
was on the list. We read the event site. We went. That's it. There was no
mysterious connection to Tony Jones. I don't know if it's silly to admit
this, but even though everyone in these conversations is constantly
talking about him throwing celebrity around, I didn't even know who he
was. (Shhhh. Don't tell him. It might hurt his ego.)
2
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No_6 > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
Liking your comment because even though I live in the same city as Tony
and Julie, I didn't know who Tony was until three years ago. Likewise, I've
spoken personally with NBW on a business matter prior to knowing what
her standing was within the progressive and ELCA community. Let's just
say that she was not pleased that I didn't know who she was.
So I will say that I find claims of "celebrity" for these people to be
exaggerated--whether it's claims of "celebrity" or "following" from proJulie individuals or from JoPa itself.
1
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Guest > No_6
2 days ago
clearly the narcissistic apple or authors do not fall far from the tree. birds
of a feather...you get it.
1
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Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
that will definitely cause a narcissistic injury which is a clinical event

resulting in rage and retaliation.
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2 days ago
That's part of the problem michael. The machine gives powerful people a
pass because everything is done on varying degrees of reputation. Whilst
the victims (Julie's in this case) voice is being silenced people like
yourselves join the gang so to speak. And so the cycle continues.
You obviously feel you looked into it in a correct way but sometimes it
takes a little more boldness to see the story behind the detail that you
looked at. I am bit saying that you aren't bold but that we are all in danger
of being enablers if we think we have landed in a place of the safety of
our own certainties.
The church has a history of covering up (or ignoring - same eect) issues
in order to protect the machine. This a far cry from the idea of leaving the
ninety nine to help find the one.
I sense that Julie has been in need of some brave people who would
leave their constituencies (your word) in order to hear the voice of the
one.
2
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2 days ago
Actually, I think there's a lot of ways to define the problem and I think
each of us has a responsibility to do our best to investigate and research
to support whatever our role is in this story. Mine in this case is a small
one and I took it very seriously. Of course not all of us are going to see
the same things since we filter through the lenses of our dierent
experiences, but I have the same right you do to be thoughtful and
reflective and make the best choice I can. I can't just ignore my
conscience or the information I've seen and agree with everyone's
conclusions, but I do try to respect them which is going to have to be
good enough for now, I guess. :)
1
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2 days ago
we all knew what you meant.
Reply Share
2 days ago
Alan, I think it is bizarre not ONE person connected to the empire either
as host, promoter, colleague who has endorsed each others books has
bothered to email me or call me. In fact, they run and block me! Hang up
on me. But throngs of supporters outside the empire. This is dirty
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business because there is dirt they want buried.

1
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2 days ago
It is Julie. I hope you know that there are plenty of people who are not so
blind to the abuse of power that takes place. Michael might feel he is
approaching it in a fair and appropriate way but it doesn't work like that.
The abuse of power is always harder to fight by the one being silenced.
It is getting late this side of the pond so I will have to check out for now.
Will check in again tomorrow. Take care Al
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MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
Julie, if there's more that you would like to say that you haven't already
said, it doesn't seem like Nadia is censoring us here. I would welcome
you to share anything on your heart or mind and I give you my word I will
listen.
Reply Share
Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
I'm sure Nadia is in on this ....whatever this is. I don't trust you as far as I
can throw you. But I'll play along.
1
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MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
If you could throw me, you'd be one beast of a woman! :) I have no doubt
you're strong, but my wife's cooking hasn't been kind to my scale!
Reply Share
Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
whatever Michael. you have vascilated between going for my jugular to

mr. sweet guy with a home cookin' wife....I have been at this long enough
to have a keen bs meter. I have the truth and your guy doesn't....end of
story. you find an adulterer and abuser a worthy event headliner. I don't. I
have exhausted this round but you did a fine job parroting the narrative.
usually the pawns then email him to get a pat on the head with their taile
wagging for approval and historically he uses what I have written for
another run at a defamation suit. so you can feel proud about that too. I
will report back when or if that happens. see, unlike me...he really needs
this story to go away. that is the nice thing about the truth you can hold
your head up high when telling it.
peace to you,
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Julie
3
Guest
Reply Share
2 days ago
He IS litigating me into poverty. How else do you describe a situation where a person files a
Motion all but a 3 month reprieve since 2008 and I have no choice but to respond?!? You aren't
even looking in the right court? He has filed double digits and then again in civil courts there
has been 6 in civil court alone. Not just family court?! Michael, I had a lawyer in the early days. I
can't aord a lawyer now and am up against his $450 an hour lawyer alone and representing
myself. You think you know what you are talking about....but you are incorrect. I owe the last
law firm $20,000 and I am afraid they will take my car. So, CLEARLY you are not just a distant
on looker but in the pocket of the NPD....keep going....I'll answer each and every spin.
4
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Danica > Guest
2 days ago
Julie I believe you. There will be those that don't. And that's fine. The truth will all come
out in the end.
2
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Guest > Danica
2 days ago
Thank you, Danica. Any victim of abuse and violence will tell you that whose
three words are incredibly healing. At the end of this lifetime....my abuser knows
what went down. My kids watched it happen. You can lie and cheat but you can
never escacpe yourself. I sleep at night and have peace about who I am and
happen to know....my abuser does not.
2
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MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
Again, you'll have to take this up with the courts, but God as my witness, that's not
what the court records show. The statement that Tony Jones filed a motion every three
months is...I don't even know how to be polite and explain how dierent that is from the
actual facts.
1
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2 days ago
Michael, you've not had access to the comprehensive court records then. I've
seen just one case, and the list of actions is quite extensive, and spans half a
decade at least.
Edit Reply Share
Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
I said....if you were listening. There was either a Motion pending or filed
consecutively for the past 7 years with only one 3 month reprieve. I also (if you
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were listening) said there was Motions in civil court as well with his obsession
with trying to stage and arrest and harassment restraining orders. All apart of a
larger scheme to flip custody citing, "Their mother is a criminal." That was
denied. So, you only looked in family court but you are calling me a liar albeit
politely. Sorry....not buying you are from a conservative evangelical org or church
who recently investigated the abuses but NOT talking to the victim but only
looking at court docs which is what the abuser TOLD you to only look at but your
church or org is conservative but you host a progressive liberal who has
proclaimed the resurrection is doubtful? Nope. I think you are actually one of the
countless pawns in the empires operation but continue.....what else?
1
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MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
Sorry for misunderstanding. Our investigation into the records just

doesn't align with your above reworded statement either. And also just to
correct one thing, I didn't say I was from a conservative org. Just that our
org has some constituents that are conservative while others are
progressive. Many people even in conservative doctrinal circles are more
progressive politically now so I'm not sure how you're measuring it, but
that's what I meant.
1
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Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
I am doubting your agenda here because it is eerily the same narrative

peddled by my abuser which he published publicly until he realized what
an idiot he was to publish that because he didn't even have his own
diagnosis correct and I had no diagnosis whatsoever and yet he lied on
the internet that I did! So, you peddling this narrative which they would
like pushed down hard is interesting. Do you really not understand the
sheer magnitude of an NPD diagnosis?
2
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MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
I'm not sure what narrative I'm peddling in your mind, but all I can do is
do my best to be honest about what I've found and not pass judgment on
things I don't know about. If it's any consolation, I highly doubt I would
ever like to be friends with Tony Jones. I don't know about you. But I do
wish you well and I hope you are eventually able to move on from where
you are. Sincerely, no one deserves to be stuck in your narrative forever
either. You're obviously a strong person and I hope you can use that
strength and the support of those here and other places to grow a new
Tony Jones free life that blesses you richly.
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2 days ago
Can't be free from Tony if he is the dad of the kids.
Reply Share
2 days ago
That's true. I concede that. As free as one can be then.
Reply Share
Danica > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
Did you see the police report detailing Tony's violence against Julie in front of the
kids?
2
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Guest > Danica
2 days ago
He read what he was told to read...just the court docs. That is what they
want people reading....just a "messy divorce" folks. Nothing to see here.
1
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MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
Repeating this again doesn't make the statement valid. We never spoke
to Tony or anyone else and were not directed by any of them. We also did
far more than just look at court docs. We talked to actual people. We
talked to more than one agency. It was exhaustive and exhausting. I think
this issue is far more than just a messy divorce. This thing is so thick with
problems, it surpasses any divorce I know of or have even ever heard of.
1
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2 days ago
Someone (tony) being a party to the divorce of the century should raise
some red flags.
2
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2 days ago
With all due respect, they were both party to the divorce.
Reply Share
Adrenalin Tim > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
Indeed, but the point was that only one of the parties was paid by your
organization to do a thing.
1
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Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
There is divorce and then there is divorcing a diagnosed narcissist which

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has its on section in book stores. Michael, I just don't think you get it.
Reply Share
MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
I definitely do not get it in the exact way you are insisting that I get it, that
is true. But again, I wish you the best. I hope life brings you so much joy
that this old stage of life gets beaten down by it. I know you'll never be
free of it, but I hope you get to a place where life blesses you beyond
your hopes.
1
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2 days ago
Right, but Julie is not claiming to be a church leader.

1
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2 days ago
I don't know how active Julie is in her church or whether she even goes
to a church. The research we did was not sucient to suggest that seven
years later there should be consequences like removing our alignment
with his organization. I am not his religious superior.
1
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2 days ago
No one is Tony Jones' religious superior. That is part of the problem.

Emergent has no leaders. But Pagitt and Jones are claiming to be its
founders.
3
Edit Reply Share
Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
It's called being a stand up person. I would never willingly align with an
abuser. For the love of God is this really that complicated?
1
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MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
If there was certain abuse (which we've discussed this), I would stand
with a person and believe in their growth but in a more constructive and
boundaried way which would not involve alignment for a long period of
time and perhaps forever.
1
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Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
I just told you that there was abuse. Please take victim advocacy 101.
1
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MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
You have and I am listening. But as we've discussed, unfortunately, it

seems based on our conversation that we see things dierently. I don't
want to pressure you to see it my way, but you also can't reverse the
days of painstaking research I did without sucient reason. I am sorry for
how that feels to you, but I have to honor my own conscience in this. I
never intended to get this deep into the conversation, but it's been good
to interact with you.
1
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Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
painstaking? you never contacted the victim, psych evals, custody evals,
police reports. you read what the empire pointed to. again, I think I will go
with the reputable institutions that actually DID do due diligence and
summarized I was and am a victim of a diagnosed NPD and therefore
they did the right thing.
1
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MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
We actually looked into a lot of these things, but as we have stated

several times now, we did not contact any of the parties who would have
a stake in persuading us that they were right and the other party was
wrong. This included Tony etc. We were not being called upon to rule on
criminal charges (that would be the courts), we were just being called
upon to make an honorable decision and we did our very best even if we
landed in a place you don't agree with.
1
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2 days ago
Tony has no religious superiors. That is part of the whole emergent thing.
Tony has a kind of customer driven church, it is up to each person to
decide if they buy it. Hiding essential information makes it impossible to
make an informed consumer decision.
Reply Share
2 days ago
Sorry, the conversation keeps moving as dierent people comment and I

want to be faithful to really invest in the conversation and not just opinion
bomb it and run for the hillls (despite feeling like doing that at times!).
I guess then Tony is accountable to people like all of us collectively. Do
some orgs not want to work with him? Maybe? Do some think God could
still do something redemptive and hopeful inside Tony inspite of his flaws,
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I think so. Are there companies and orgs and reputable individuals who
choose to work with him. Yes. Are there those who will hold him
accountable by cutting ties and not buying his books, yeah. It's a free
commerce sort of church world these days. We vote with our aliations
and our dollars and your no vote counts just as much as my yes one. I
respect that we won't all see it the same way and I don't assume that
makes you a bad or unintelligent person.
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wordvixen > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
"Do some think God could still do something redemptive and hopeful
inside Tony inspite of his flaws"
Are you actually saying that it's ok to keep an abuser (or even someone
accused of abuse, which biblically disqualifies him according to Titus 1) in
a leadership position- actually placing him there in your case- just
because he *might* have a change of heart?
Dude. Your org is so o base if that's the case.
1
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2 days ago
You are right, Tony haa set up a religious structure where he is

accountable to only his end buyer. Which means, when he intentionally
hides important information from us, he is acting in bad faith. Tony, the
emergent movement, and all of the celebrities Tony coordinates, are all
part of the same inherently fraudulent system.
Reply Share
Guest > CurtisMSP
2 days ago
Curtis gets it.
Reply Share
Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
Michael?

MichaelOP04
Reply Share
2 days ago
So, KT, thanks again for waiting. One major discrepancy we found is the ongoing claim
repeated many times on the web that Tony was litigating Julie into poverty. I forget the term for
it, but something like using legal action as a weapon or form of abuse. We told this to the court
clerk verbatim (we actually had to talk to more than one court for this one) and we were also
told this statement was not accurate.
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She explained that there are administrative motions in which the court makes a judgment about
an administrative matter. Or where the parties come to an agreement with their counsel and the
court formalizes it. These aren't initiated by either party.
But in terms of the various court cases, it was NOT true that Tony Jones initiated a bunch of
motions against Julie. In fact, the case record at the time showed that Julie McMahon had
initiated 5 motions and Tony Jones had initiated 5 motions. Exactly the same.
Here's a website that you can go to that we went to with the clerk for this next thing. I have it
handwritten so tell me if it doesn't work for any reason. http://pa.courts.state.mn.us/d.... She
said that people don't always understand how to look up cases because they have to search
for the right name using the right term (such as respondent).
Again we had no idea what to think of this. I didn't know either of them from a hole in the wall
but we checked and rechecked. Tony Jones was not the dominant litigator nor was Julie underrepresented by legal counsel as she claimed. Her first law oce which I have down as
Lindquist was a very pricey downtown attorney's oce. There were so many holes, I can't even
remember all of them related to this.
3
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2 days ago
Lawfare is the term.
Edit Reply Share
2 days ago
Let's not lose track of the central issue: Tony's systematic, coordinated use of the
church to keep Julie, and her advocates, silent, for years. That will never show up in
your court records. But this is a church blog, and that is the central issue of concern for
me.
5
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Guest > CurtisMSP
2 days ago
Curtis.....this is their spin.....to get you dissecting the "messy divorce" don't look
over there at the aair, torn shoulder, or "lets' get Julie committed" and never
look in the corner where there is an actual 22 page diagnosis of a "sadistic"
narcissist.
1
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MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
No one is claiming Tony is perfect. Well at least not on our end. We're just
saying the claims were not supported by multiple avenues of research, so
we are forced to make our best judgment on how to proceed with an
admittedly flawed leader. You obviously would disagree with our best
judgment and I understand why and I can respect that. My wife is sitting
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here over my shoulder and she said to tell you she can respect that too.
1
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Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
what is claimed and with facts is: an aair, abuse, a cover up, a crazy
campaign, a diagnosis, and endless litigation. It is abuse and you are an
enabler to look the other way.
Reply Share
2 days ago
But the claim that tony systematically uses the church to silence and
discredit Julie and others is supported by the evidence. That is the
problem.
Reply Share
Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
But you hosted a person who lied, had an aair, tried to have his sane
wife committed meanwhile he was proven mentally ill and significantly so
and tore his wife's shoulder in front of three little kids? Why are looking at
support documents when the victim is over here getting a cortisone shot
so she can lift her arm up more than half way? Do you not see how you
and your church or org have been brilliantly played by the NPD?
2
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2 days ago
Yep. For sure. I know. This thing is a beast, right? At one point, we had a list of
over 100 questions written on a white board about this. We took it very seriously.
So on this front, I was not involved actually. My boss is the one who had a
conversation I think with two of the people (I was not on the phone for this) who
spoke on the DH blog too. Whoever he spoke to was adamant they had
observed things (some passed on specific actions they'd seen) that led them to
tastelessly call Julie crazy, but they swore no one orchestrated characterizing her
this way, but that she had done specific things which were considered unusual.
We both know that divorce and pain and mistreatment and all of that could lead
someone to act "unusual" so I'm not making a judgment there, but it was clear
they had been vocalaizing their own judgments. They all said the marriage
seemed fine for years but that suddenly it became obvious there was a lot of
tension and dislike and then it went from bad to worse seemingly overnight.
They said it was one of the worst breakdowns they'd seen. And they had other
explanations for how and why they believe she exited community, but they were
not flattering and since that is just their opinions, I won't repeat them here.
2
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Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
Did you consult a mental health professional? Did you read the 22 page
psych eval? Do you understand the magnitude of a full blown NPD
diagnosis? Clearly not. I hope your event went well and your church or
org made lots of money in registration fees.
1
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MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
Yes, we did consult a mental health professional and yes, we did ask
specific questions about NPD. That was the part that weighed most
heavily on us in terms of compassion for you.
1
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Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
What hobunk licensed psychologist? (doubtful) failed to mention the

hallmark of the disease being pathological lying, gas lighting, revenge,
narcissistic target, narcissistic supply, and controlling the narrative.
Michael, maybe your team meant well but they royally screwed up and
got this one wrong.
1
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MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
They did NOT fail to say this actually. This is in fact what led us to feel
compassionate toward you as divorce was said to be a time of crisis that
would bring out the worst in someone with this disorder.
1
MichaelOP04
Reply Share
2 days ago
I don't know how to tag Kandace or KT Pridgen whose question I am answering.

Okay, one big thing was the child support. So we had to get a court clerk to take some time to
walk us through the paperwork we were trying to interpret. Her exact words as I asked her
about the allegation which I wrote down from the internet that she repeated were: "I believe you
were told that, but that's not what the records show." I also took notes that she said "There is
no way to read these records and conclude there was any delinquency on the part of
Mr.Jones"
She said the State of Minnesota is one of the toughest states on child support and that child
support laws favor the mother but that Tony Jones had never been found in arrears. She said
the mother (Julie) or her lawyer might have disputed any portion of the child support which
happens in almost all cases, but that if he was in arrears, there would be more than one record
supporting this conclusion.
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Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
Did you find he never gave a dime for 18 months? Did you find he never gave a wiling dime
ever? The county has to try and find it from a self employed diagnosed narcissist? Actually,
again Michael you are wrong. The temporary order is not part of the ocial docs so NO it
would not show. You speak with authority but you are consistently incorrect.
Reply Share
2 days ago
Did you find the case where Tony Jones flipped child support on a technicality? It was
at the appeals court, so the local court reference you gave above wouldn't have caught
it.
Edit Reply Share
Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
I never received the support owed under the 18 months of temporary order. Then he
never willingly gave one penny. The county had to try and hunt it down. He would be
paid on site at speaking gigs his $5000 rate and being a 1099 employee for out-of-state
he told my case worker, "you can't touch that." I have a paper email trail of that
behavior between he and a major institution that hires him. They have since apologized
to me not knowing they too were in the long line of pawns.
2
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Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
Again, on paper a skilled diagnosed narcissist will always look perfect on paper. So, for
the defenders to say....."look to the documents" you are being deceived.
2
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MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
I have heard you say this but we never talked to Tony. Not then not now. To be
frank, no one here cares what he has to say. We only cared about knowing what
the records really show to make a choice about any ongoing involvement with
them. That's it.
1
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Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
Then contact me! Anyone with a brain knows the courts are a piece of a
victims puzzle but any advocate worth their salt knows what a narcissist
can do to spin and control the narrative. The very reputable institutions
actually consulted their psych dept heads. Your REFUSE to pause on the
fact we are dealing with a diagnosed narcissist. You keep the same
smoke and mirrors routine they kept of for 7 years dissecting the details
of a messy divorce. That's not the story. But you are peddling the
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company narrative to a tee!

1
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Guest > Guest
2 days ago
It's crazy to me that Michael keeps taking about you, Julie, but won't talk
to you.
Reply Share
Guest > Guest
2 days ago
Or that he keeps hammering the EXACT narrative the empire wants

hammered? Not one word about aairs, cover ups, or domestic
violence...not. word. one.
Reply Share
MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
I've actually responded to her multiple times, with all due respect. I am
listening to everything she writes and have read all her previous
comments extensively. Contrary to some people involved in this, I do
care. But I am not willing to say things that aren't true in order to comfort
her. I am hopeful that friends like you bring her the support she needs.
1
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Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
Care? You might start with, "I am sorry you continue to be abused and I
am sorry I am a classic enabler."
Reply Share
2 days ago
I'm sure you don't mean to be condescending, Michael, but that's how it
comes across.
1
Edit Reply Share
Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
Not really. You are mostly concerned with getting your agenda out than
an actual dialogue. That's a classic victim blame stance and an attempt
to discredit the victim, "I hope she gets the support she needs."
Reply Share
MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
No, that's not true. I think you were caught in a really hard situation and I
don't know what I would have done in your shoes. The fact that you are
still going strong and being a mom and working your way up as you
described if something my wife and I take our hats o to. Truly. We hope
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you find peace beyond measure in the days ahead.
Reply Share
Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
If you take your hats o then listen when a victim tells you she is being
abused for 7 solid years and stop enabling!
2
Guest > MichaelOP04
Reply Share
2 days ago
Rather than pay the arearages he hired a $450 an hour lawyer who skillfully wiped it all
away retroactive to 2008 and now I actually pay him. Yep.
1
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Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
He was 50,000 in arrears. That is the bar for Contempt of Court
Reply Share
Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
You are correct. Sort of. He did not pay one red cent for 18 months under the temporary
court order. We were homeless. He drove the home into foreclosure while buying himself
and his mistress a new home across town. That would not be in the court files.
1
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MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
Not to be disrespectful, but we actually looked into this as well. You can check
with the deeds oce or just get nosey on Zillow, one of my coworkers found out
from a realtor friend. Tony doesn't own his own house. It belongs to his parents
whose names I will redact since I'm sure you know them. We knew it would
make Tony furious to ask him, but our board member wanted to be able to
honestly look people in the eye and say we turned over any stone we could think
of.
I saw a similar claim was made about you having a house below and that you
said this was also incorrect and your parents own the house you're living in as
well. I'm sorry misinformation gets out there.
2
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2 days ago
Thanks! So, the child support thing is public record-- it's been linked to in various
places. Anything that you've seen that has not been released to the public? (And again,
I wouldn't ask you to reveal the contents of the document-- just which document it
was... a police report for a particular incident, a court document or psychological
evaluation we haven't seen, etc.)
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2 days ago
Yep. Okay, I have a couple other things. Thanks for your patience as I get this
typed. Sort of more of a thumbs texting guy than a keyboard person.
Reply Share
2 days ago
That shows you that Tony won, in court, in that particular case. Legally, that is the end
of the story on that case. But that does not mean that Julie didn't feel wronged, or does
not deserve to publicly tell her side of the story, when negative rumors about her are
being spread by others.
You covered your legal due diligence. That does not mean Julie has been treated well
by Tony or his colleagues.
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Guest > CurtisMSP
2 days ago
as any savvy advocate knows the courts are one snap shot of the story and the
one with the $450 an hour lawyer is probably going to win. even so....he
continues to lose because it is that obvious to professionals what the full
comprehension of an NPD diagnosis means. I have explained all of this before
and I am weary. Chose to support whoever you think is telling the truth.
Personally, I wouldn't put my support with a person whose $4000 clinical
comprehensive diagnosis includes "pathological lying."
3
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2 days ago
No, it was not that simple. We asked probably ten or eleven questions just on
this alone. The records covered the length of time from the day Tony moved out
and documented everything with a detailed timeline showing their legal
separation dates and legal divorce dates and how each impacted things. There
was never any court action against Tony regarding child support and the woman
assured us they regularly ruled fathers (and mothers sometimes) in contempt at
some point along the way.
1
Reply Share
2 days ago
I've seen the court action Tony initiated to flip child support so he
wouldn't have to pay or be faced with a court action by Julie.
Julie may have even either had discretion, or had no money to launch a
recovery action. Or does the State do that?
Edit Reply Share
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Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
He reached the bar for Contempt of Court by not paying up to $50,000 in

arrears. The details of a messy divorce have never been my story. Abuse by
spiritual leaders, a massive cover up of a known aair, domestic violence denied,
threats, endless litigation and the "Godly" men and women who enable (this is
the MOST important part) a diagnosed narcissist. If you do not get what that
actually means....this is wasted energy.
2
Reply Share
2 days ago
I believe you. Julie is here, so she can respond too. Child support isn't the
only issue.
Maybe if Tony would join in, we could settle this all right here?
Reply Share
Guest > CurtisMSP
2 days ago
Child support is the smoke and mirrors they would like you to focus on.
Aair, cover up, torn shoulder with corroborating police report and
medical records, sex emails, and a police escort out of the home.
1
MichaelOP04
Reply Share
3 days ago
Kandace, just scrolled down this comment thread after my friend told me about it. Not usually a
commenter. I don't know how exactly this works with or against some of the people you're
asking questions about, but the allegations have troubled me for a while.
FULL DISCLOSURE: I work for an org that sponsored one of the events Tony was involved
with. (Commence hate.) It was actually a sponsorship purchased before these allegations
surfaced, but we chose not to cancel after looking into this throroughly. We found out about the
allegations because someone we'd never met, I think it was Tim Wilson-Brown, tweeted at us
and our social media guy let us know. I saw someone else who questioned how another
company's lawyers could find the allegations to be unreliable and I thought I might be able to
provide some info on how orgs are looking at it. Granted, my situation is dierent in that we
don't have lawyers on the payroll or anything, but one of our board members did get involved
and some neutral third parties were consulted. We found there to be some serious gaps in the
allegations and when considering the mixed evidence and testimony, we felt none of us had the
expertise that others here are claiming to have to overrule courts etc. It's not that we took a
position of disbelieving Julie, but we just took a long, faithful, serious look at things and
realized that if we backed out, we'd be backing out over Tony's online personality and how
many people don't like him and NOT based on what the records showed. I know this isn't a
popular thing to say, but I'm going to say it anyways because I've thought of mentioning it on
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other conversations too but honestly, I'm too much of a coward when it comes to going on and
revealing my FB identity to everyone. Shallow I know but honest. We all have our hangups.
3
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2 days ago
Many of the allegations against Tony are not necessarily allegations of illegal behavior,
and wouldn't cross the legal threshold used by a lawyer or judge to measure the merits
of the allegations. Allegations such as
-- Cheating on his wife
-- Claiming that his wife was mentally unstable, and using said illness as a reason to
leave her
-- Leaving his kids in the care of someone he himself claimed was incompetent
-- Coordinating eorts through his professional colleagues to prevent Julie from telling
her story, and to prevent others from speaking publicly on Julie's behalf
-- Repeatedly reneging on his custodial and child support obligations, and working
actively to have his child support reduced even as his career grew.
I don't pretend to speak for Julie, and since she is here, she is welcome to comment.
These are just some allegations I am aware of.
None of these things are, in themselves, illegal, or pass any sort of legal threshold. Yet
they are all relevant to the personal character of someone who publicly portrays himself
as a leader in the church.
You may have determined that you had no legal obligation to cancel your arrangements
with Tony, but that does not mean that these allegations against Tony are baseless or
unwarranted.
4
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Guest > CurtisMSP
2 days ago
They WANT you looking at court papers. That is not where the deception and
sadistic behavior lies. Michael.....clearly you just tipped your hat because Nadia,
Rachel and everyone else with money invested except for the reputable
institutions have said, "Look at the court docs." THAT is not where the sickening
story lies.
Reply Share
MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
I get there might be some power play going on in this and I sympathize
with you, but as for us, we don't care what Nadia or Rachel say. Some of
our constituents are conservative evangelicals who frankly wouldn't be
fans of us going to a jopa event or aligning ourselves with any of the big
progressive celebrities. We never talked to Tony, Nadia, Rachel, Doug,
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Brian or anyone else for that reason.

Guest > MichaelOP04
Reply Share
2 days ago
No one contacted me. I'm here....waiting to be contacted. Why would big institutions
drop him? After their thorough investigations which included contacting the victim. The
truth will always surface.
Reply Share
2 days ago
Would you mind sharing which documents you had access to that the rest of us do not?
I'm not asking you to share the content of the documents, but I would be interesting in
knowing which of the relevant documents you've seen that haven't been released to the
general public.
Reply Share
2 days ago
Okay, yes, this was a few months back but I will go get my little folder of stu
related to this that I think is in with my sponsor stu in the basement and be
back in a few. (I really will. Not just saying that.)
Reply Share
Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
"due diligence" is defined by the interconnected authors, speakers,

promoters as NOT contacting the victim. In fact, blocking her, hanging up
on her and telling her to never contact you again while publicly stating
you are an advocate for victims.
3
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MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
I hear that, but to be fair none of these people were me. If we would've
found out from you rather than a tweeter, we would've heard you out.
Reply Share
2 days ago
I appreciate it! Thanks for engaging respectfully in this.

(Though as Julie points out, contacting her would have been a good
move for getting the whole story.)
2
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2 days ago
I hear that too. If it makes you feel any better, we also did not contact
Tony either. We didn't tell he or Doug or any of the other interconnected
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leaders we were doing an investigation because we did not want their

opinions to bias us in any way. We also consulted a board member who is
completely unplugged from the Emergent scene and didn't even know
what Jopa was.
1
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Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
Michael,
I am here. I would like to be consulted on what it has been like for the
past 7 years having to defend myself legally from a vengeful narcissist
who is pissed o he has a diagnosis and his aair went virile and then
there is the pesky domestic violence where he was police escorted from
the house. I have only had 3 months since 2008 where there was not a
Motion brought by him and where there was not a Motion pending. I
stopped counting at 18. THIS is what it has been like. And the rabid
response to keep this buried is the truly the canary in the coal mine.
Only prestigious institutions contacted both of us and did a thorough
investigation and found me to be a victim of a mentally ill and diabolical
narcissist.
Julie
2
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MichaelOP04 > Guest
2 days ago
Hey Julie, I've read everything you've written on other sites--DH, RLS,
TWW, including the comments, but I am happy to have you add anything
else you haven't said before along these lines. Again I didn't contact Tony
either. To this day, he has no idea we conducted this investigation. To be
honest, we know either side has incentive to explain things away so we
avoided ever bringing it up to him.

KT Pridgen
Reply Share
3 days ago
I find it troubling how many people apparently decided to create Disqus profiles just to
comment in this conversation. I count six. (And I do realize there are some on both "sides").
Now, I definitely don't think they are all sockpuppets, but I would be surprised if all of them are
legitimate...
EDIT: Just kidding. I scrolled down farther. 10+ private accounts created JUST to comment on
this topic.
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3 days ago
I know I just created one bc I never have commented on a Disqus site before.
1
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3 days ago
Like I said, I don't think all of these 10+ accounts are sockpuppets because
every Disqus profile needs a first story. But 10+ on a single story, many of which
are oering dubious inside information? I mean, you have to admit that's mighty
suspicious.
1
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2 days ago
In fairness, I admit it is probably unusual. Wonder if it's because the blog

and social media conversations have always been hosted by Julie
supporters and this one is perceived as less hostlie bc it is NBW's turf.
Probably an illusion, but it's part of what got me. :)
1
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2 days ago
No, its because most blog and social media conversations about Julie &
Tony's situation before last September were deleted by the host blog.
Many still are today. Last September, Julie started writing on David
Hayward's blog, and he has agreed to not delete her comments.
Also, for many of the past 7 years, Julie and Tony have been engaged in
child custody disputes, during which time Julie was advised to not write
anything. Julie could say more about that.

BigBrowner
Reply Share
3 days ago
Sorry for repeat posting but gotta say it again. When people tell you not to look at trolls, look at
the trolls. Look at everyone who asks you not to investigate the trolls. Wait for it...let me
guess...there friends with the trolls!
Reply Share
BigBrowner
3 days ago
Predictable. In the trolls unbiased opinion, no one should investigate the trolls because that
would take the attention o...where they want it.
Go figure.
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Kandace
10/04/2015 19:49
3 days ago
Okay...whew...yes, when you all said I was naive when I suggested those who have been platforming the
allegations against Tony Jones should also be explored, I was sort of oended. I have some professional
competency so it felt dismissive. But as things have evolved, I've had a good cry which I'll tell you about
in a minute and I can admit you were right. But first the emails you've sent: the people that emailers
were most curious about their real life relationship with Julie were Tim WIlson Brown and David
Hayward, followed closely by RL Stollar and Brad Sargent, and then Stephanie Drury, Amy Smith, and
Julia Doughty. I saw at least two commenters here mentioned some others which we'll add to the list.
One person also mentioned Dee from Wartburg, but a couple people stated they saw her as being in a
dierent category than some of the others so...we'll see about that one. There are also a few others that
came up less.
If you've emailed me, I will eventually get to it. I've received a lot more emails than I expected (again,
you may call me naive). Most of the emails that came in were from people who said they were scared of
questioning some of the online personalities who they saw as being mean and lacking the ethical
standards of professional advocates (this is what they said: don't shoot the messenger!). Some of the
emails specifically attacked me for even asking the question. I have decided not to reveal any
confidentialities, because I promised some people I wouldn't, but there's definitely been a few who used
a lot of forceful, power-language to convince me why I should NOT investigate those platforming the
allegations. Some of these were incredibly rude and had all the marks of WASP manipulation. This was
the part that gave me a good cry.
The other thing to know is I am not alone. Crazy as this is, one of the people on the list actually tried to
assert themselves as an impartial helper who could look for bias. Um no. There was one or two people
with some relevant background who I think might lend some help. Also though I heard from a writer who
is interested in the ties between this story and the Rolling Stones stu.
I'm feeling kind of down on myself that I am not stronger in the face of this opposition, but at least I
know from the emails of others that I am not the only one who is fearful in asking questions. It gives me
a little courage to realize that I am not the only one who is asking these questions and I am not crazy
either. ;)
Respect to all of you for participating in the discussion and thanks for the emails. If I haven't gotten to
yours yet, I will. I had to work today!
2
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2 days ago
Kandace, you can read a summary of my non-connection with Julie in my comments to

Michael above. As far as I'm concerned, there's not much more to investigate about me
(and it feels weird to be investigated for advocacy for abuse victims, to be honest).
However, feel free to contact me here or privately if you have more questions.
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MichaelOP04 > Kandace
3 days ago
I hate this for you. Just from my brief interactions with this group a few months ago, it
was not pretty.
1
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Guest > MichaelOP04
2 days ago
I welcome Kandace. I will talk to anyone. Openly and honestly.
Reply Share
CurtisMSP > Kandace
3 days ago
What is your rough estimate of the number of people you intend to investigate, and how
do you arrive at that estimate? Can we see your list of everyone you intend to
investigate?
Reply Share
CurtisMSP > Kandace
3 days ago
I encourage you in your research.

But speaking of ethical standards, you can't really report findings like
"scared of questioning some of the online personalities who they saw as being mean"
And
"forceful, power-language to convince me why I should NOT investigate"
And
"incredibly rude and had all the marks of WASP manipulation."
Without providing verifiable sources or quotes.
All sides of this topic are expected to provide verifiable, relevant sources. Anything else
is hearsay and meaningless.
I encourage you in your research, and hope you will follow responsible standards in your
research and in reporting your findings.
If someone is publicly asserting themselves on a public topic, they are voluntarily
assuming a public position, and you have no ethical or legal obligation to honor their
request for anonymity. If they insist on remaining anonymous, you can't really, ethically,
quote their opinion as a finding. This applies whether the person is supporting Julie or
Tony.
2
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Tim Wilson-Brown > CurtisMSP
2 days ago
I am not a lawyer, but my understanding of US libel, defamation, and slander law is that
you can either give your own opinions without restriction, or discuss facts based on
disclosed evidence. You can run into trouble if you base your statements on
undisclosed, secret facts.
This is not legal advice. You may want to get your own lawyer, or at least read actual
lawyers on this topic:
https://randazza.wordpress.com...
Edit Reply Share
3 days ago
I think people can conduct their own investigations. Probably all of us have done
somehting along those lines, right? But we shouldn't take anyone's word as final
(including mine). Listening doesn't hurt though. And it's definitely possible to
pick up some new information from someone else found, even if you don't come
to the same end game. For what it's worth, I do agree that for an investigation to
be complete, it has to be an open one that reveals who worked on it and why
and all that. That's why I almost didn't comment today. Even a neutral party to
one side might not be an acceptable, unbiased opinion for the other. Anonymous
ones, I admit, are even harder to swallow. Sucks on so many levels.
Reply Share
Guest > Kandace
3 days ago
Kandace.We have not spoken. In fact, Nadia, Rachel...no ONE with financial ties has
contacted me about anything. I'm an open book and will answer anything. What's your
question?
Julie
1
Reply Share
BigBrowner > Kandace
3 days ago
^^^^^^ DUDE. This is f-ed up. When people start intimidating you for asking questions,
it means your asking the right questions.
Reply Share
2 days ago
As evidenced by TJ and his buddies threatening legal action every time anyone
with any following started asking questions about him.
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AussieCarol
Reply Share
3 days ago
I agree wholeheartedly with Danica from SCCL below.

There's been far too much silence here and not enough
listening. People need to speak. Not just one person. Not just two
people or a group of people. Not just the accused, the accuser, Nadia,
Brian, SCCL, David Hayward, Tim Wilson Brown, but everyone who has
something to share. Silence has not resolved this so far. Don't turn
back when progress is being made.
I am more convinced than ever
that people will continue to investigate Tony and Julie's stories until the cows
come home. I think Kandace GOD BLESS HER now that all this
has happened had should not be discouraged by the messiness of airing such things out
either.
People need to look into all the
voices that have elevated themselves as experts, advocates, and ongoing
sources for this matter on both sides:
I'd like to hear how much
personal real world interaction as Kandace said (not internet or phone communication) the
following people had with Tony and Julie before
they were married, how much any of them have with them now, how long they've known them,
whether
they ever lived in the same town or state, and so on.
Brian McLaren
Nadia BolzWeber
Doug Pagitt
Drea (below) if anyone knows her last name
JenSwisher
CurtisMSP
JRGE
Amy Smith
Julia Doughty
Tim Wilson Brown
Dee from TWW
David Hayward
Stephanie Drury
RL Stollar
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Brad Sargent
Brother Maynard
Clint Schnekloth
1
Reply Share
Tim Wilson-Brown > AussieCarol
2 days ago
Ah, a fellow Aussie!

Carol, that should answer half your questions already.
The rest of the answers are above in response to Michael.
And careful to not make it look like a witch hunt of Julie's supporters, ok?
Because if you're going to spend time investigating, investigate the interlocking,
undisclosed relationships between Emergent authors, too. Like book endorsements,
speaking gigs, conference deals that's where the money is. Not among the list of
people above. This whole thing has cost me time and reputation, and made me nothing.
1
Edit Reply Share
Kandace > AussieCarol
3 days ago
A lot of these names have been mentioned already except for some of the commenters
on this site. If anyone who has commented wants to answer oine, please email.
Reply Share
Danica > AussieCarol
3 days ago
Honestly, anything that takes the focus o of Tony Jones' abuse of Julie McMahon, and
the Emergent leadership's coverup / continued silence of that abuse, is background
noise for me. The people who are advocating for Julie are the ones who also spoke out
against Mark Driscoll, and Soverign Grace, and other abusive ministries. The people
who are siding with Tony have their finger in the Emergent pie.
Julie has told her side of the story. Tony did at one point although he has since taken it
down (although I think there are screen shots somewhere). That should be enough. If
seeing the actual documents and evidence, and hearing the first hand account of the
victim isn't enough to believe her, then looking into the backgrounds of all of the people
who rally behind her isn't going to do anything besides distract from the issue at hand.
2
Reply Share
AussieCarol > Danica
3 days ago
I don't think every person deserves to have their lives turned upside down, but it
only makes sense that those who have elevated themselves to having expertise
and have made themselves into ongoing sources of information be explored too.
Otherwise, it's too close to silencing for me.
1
Reply Share
2 days ago
Carol, your analogy is flawed. What expertise I have, I mainly got from
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Rachel Held Evans and how she advocated for victims of Driscoll and
SGM.
And I'm merely trying to elevate the voices of unheard victims - in the
middle of an epidemic of silencing from Emergent leaders.
Don't flip people's desire for a little privacy into an accusation of
silencing. That's as bad as flipping questioning and criticism of public
figures into bullying.
1
Edit Reply Share
BigBrowner > AussieCarol
3 days ago
"too close to silencing for you"? Its not close to silencing. When people
ask you to be silent when you poke around about one topic, but want a
full on interrogation about others that IS silencing. Cut and dry.
1
Reply Share
Kandace > AussieCarol
3 days ago
I should add that we will be verifying what people say. They can't just say
"Oh I live in Edina" and think we'll be like, oh okay, write them down as a
taxpayer. ;)
Reply Share
2 days ago
Go ahead. Doxx me if you must.
Edit Reply Share
Tim Wilson-Brown > Tim Wilson-Brown
2 days ago
But I honestly have to say, it comes across as a little creepy.
Edit Reply Share
3 days ago
It's your prerogative - go ahead if you want to. As for me, I'm going to
stick with the issue at hand.
Tony Jones was abusive physically, emotionally and spiritually to his wife
Julie McMahon. After the divorce he continued to be emotionally abusive
and used his connections within the police force, and Emergent
leadership, to silence and gaslight her. As a Christian leader, this is wrong
of him to do. It needs to be called out. We are *required* to call our
leadership out when they abuse the sheep God gave them to shepherd. I
will continue to support Julie's eorts to be heard and will continue in my
own small way to attempt to hold accountable both Tony Jones, and the
leaders who rally behind him while turning a blind eye to his abusive
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behavior (leaders such as Pastrix Nadia Boltz Webber, who I am honestly

surprised hasn't commented here yet, or I should say, commented as
herself here yet).
For me, for myself, this is my own opinion, not trying to silence you but
speaking for myself - anything that takes the spotlight o of the above is
not helpful.
3
CurtisMSP > AussieCarol
Reply Share
3 days ago
Isn't there a YouTube video somewhere that draws lines between these people? Also
the "diagnosing emergent" blog has a lot of this information.
Reply Share
Kandace > CurtisMSP
3 days ago
Yes! Great source for the Tony side of things.
Reply Share
CurtisMSP > Kandace
3 days ago
Your research will show that the "tony side" is the only group involved
with any sort of structure.
Reply Share
BigBrowner > CurtisMSP
3 days ago
Not so fast on that one. I've heard dierently. Let the chips fall...
Reply Share
3 days ago
Clint is a pastor in the ELCA and easy to find on Facebook and twitter. I'm pretty sure he
doesn't mind me saying it, because he is very public in his social media presence.
1
Reply Share
3 days ago
Keep in mind that some people on this list may not be at liberties to disclose full details
about their relationship with Tony. Many product endorsement contracts have
nondisclosure requirements that prohibit the parties from stating the nature of their
contract in public.
1
Reply Share
AussieCarol > CurtisMSP
3 days ago
Interesting. See I know nothing of that world! I haven't seen Kandace in a bit, but
I'd like to ask her to investigate those that don't respond. Or I wouldn't be
surprised if this all draws a reporter in, would you?
Reply Share
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3 days ago
I'll answer the moment Nadia does. It is her blog, after all. Other wise I'm not hard to
find, there aren't too many people with the name Curtis in these conversations. You can
message me if you want more info.
1
Reply Share
3 days ago
Also the 'whether they've ever lived in the same town or state' honestly makes me
antsy. It feels close to doxxing. Not what you're intending, probably, but it feels like
toeing a line to me, as Ragnarock explained below.
2
Reply Share
3 days ago
Oh you might be right. It might not be good to disclose locations, but people
could share if they had significant experience living nearby to counter some of
the claims here (if they felt comfortable). Or if there were a reporter perhaps they
could research this in the broad sense without disclosing anything harmful. Good
point. I missed that sensitivity.
Reply Share
2 days ago
Yes, you did, Carol, as I commented above.

Something you need to be really careful with when dealing with abuse
victims in particular, and women in general.

Edit Reply Share
3 days ago
Pretty much every (real, not ghost account) person in Tony's camp is connected to him
via the Emergent machine - book deals, speaking tours, conferences, etc.
I have personally never met Julie, but I've never met any of my SCCL friends --- that
doesn't mean they're not real friends. And I call Julie a friend.
1
Reply Share
3 days ago
Thanks. I think it's admirable you extend yourself as friends to those you have
never met. We all probably could use a few Danicas in our lives. ;)
I don't know either of them either and have never even spoken to either on the
phone or on email. I do read Dee's blog and I sometimes stop by SCCL when a
couple of my Facebook friends share links to it. I read one book by Brian
McLaren as part of a book study once and have visited some of these other
people's sites since this broke out.
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BMikeThomas
Reply Share
3 days ago
I want to suggest to people that things here are getting out of control. On one hand, someone
might say that all is fair in love and war (and this is both, right?) and Julie should be picked
apart just as clinically as Tony was. But I think I speak for the silent majority when I say we
don't want to look at any more corpses as hurting and wounded people get picked apart by the
buzzards. Can we just stop?
It's clear that there are some valid points here made on both sides and that the scenario might
not be exactly as some thought. But I'm suggesting that anyone who has something that is
NOT hearsay but EVIDENCE, they not post it here, but they send it to the Edina police or to
Julie or Tony's lawyers. This battle CANNOT be fought responsibly online by a strange cocktail
of friends, business partners, parodies, anonymous parties, and local Edina residents. There's
no truth to be found this way.
If this persists, once again the kids are going to get hurt. And I know, I know, it's not about the
divorce or the family, but we all know it is. They don't deserve to see their mom raked over the
coals. Surely we've all had enough.
If we choose to go on and on with this, then please, someone get a reporter involved and look
into all the claims being made here. Look into the people making the claims. Find out where
everyone's credibility and expertise lies. Find out what gaps they failed to close or what "facts"
didn't get checked out ON BOTH SIDES. I try hard to believe victims. But just in case you're
one of those people on here who wants to add more insult to injury, think about what happens
even if you are right.
There was a national news story very recently where the reporter had to apologize for failing to
verify an alleged victim's story and I guarantee when it was shown to be dubious it only hurt
more people. It hurt the people who were falsely accused, it hurt the credibility of everyone who
got caught up spreading an incomplete story, it hurt the reputations of organizations involved,
BUT MOST OF ALL IT HURT OTHER VICTIMS WHO WERE DISCOURAGED BY THE KIND OF
HELL-ON-THE-INTERNET THAT UNFOLDED.
Please show some mercy and reign this thing in. That's all.
5
Reply Share
Tim Wilson-Brown > BMikeThomas
2 days ago
I've always found Julie transparent, sometimes to the point of over-sharing.

And the kids have already been hurt by an acrimonious divorce that continues to cause
conflict - not to mention the actions of their narcissistic father calling their mother crazy,
and silencing all of her eorts to stand up for herself. Then there was the physical
abuse, and the emergent gang-up on Julie in support of Tony. And now Julie has
disclosed that Tony has co-opted their oldest son into putting pressure on her to silence
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this discussion.
Yes, it's shit. Yes, kids are getting hurt.
And it won't stop until Tony Jones is removed from positions of influence. Then maybe
he will take responsibility for his behaviour.
2
Edit Reply Share
Stephanie Drury > BMikeThomas
2 days ago
Please show some mercy and drag everything into the light.
Reply Share
Kandace > BMikeThomas
3 days ago
I hear you, but I think because of the revelations from yesterday and today as well as
some of the emails, there is likely some disparity between some of the online stories
and people's real life experiences.
Reply Share
Guest > Kandace
2 days ago
Again, Kandace....contact me. I'm waiting with an arm load of documents.

1
Reply Share
AussieCarol > BMikeThomas
3 days ago
I understand why you would say this, but I disagree as I stated above. The grandma in
me wants to protect the kdis too, but I tend to think the kids are going to have to hash
all this out anyways because of everything that's already out there.
Reply Share
CurtisMSP > BMikeThomas
3 days ago
Don't worry, Tony and his friends have it under control. Tony can settle things with Julie
any time he wants to, and His friends can speak up and say or do anything they want,
and associate with whomever they choose, any time.
If Tony and his friends have a control problem, it may be too much control. Things are
not even close to being outside their control. I wouldn't worry about it.
2
Reply Share
Danica > BMikeThomas
3 days ago
I heard you say:

"Don't talk about it here. Go to the proper authorities"
"By talking about this you are hurting the children"
"Believe the victim except in this case"
"There are faults on both sides. Let someone else sort it out."
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These are all things that have been said across forums (on TWW, the NP blog, Stollar's
blog, RHE's blog, and elsewhere) to silence those who have risen up to support Julie in
telling her story.
I'm honestly not surprised. I was literally a few minutes ago wondering when a) Nadia
would close down comments here, b) or delete the comments, or c) someone else
would come in to shut down the conversation.
Respectfully I'll say that until there is justice for Julie, and until Tony stops bullying her,
and until the Emergent leadership as a whole recognizes the abuse that *did* happen,
without trying to equivocate it, then I'll keep talking.
7
Reply Share
3 days ago
Now that I read your comment, I think RHE should be added to the list too.
Reply Share
2 days ago
Yes, Carol, Rachel may not have been involved at the beginning, but she
is part of the conversation now - and has been one of the more vocal in
directing Julie to go anywhere else but Rachel.

Guest
Edit Reply Share
3 days ago
Hello. My name is Julie. There is a campaign here in overdrive to discredit me and my story. I
stand firm in saying the abuse is happening today as it has for the past 7 years. "I will no longer
be his litigation hammer to hurt Julie" said one professional who quit realizing she was a pawn
for the narcissist. Every word of the abuse, aair, cover up and 7 years of unrelenting litigation
is true. I live below the poverty line despite wealthy relatives. An "au pair" is a fancy word for
the cheapest childcare you can get and when you work for the agency you get 30% o. Do
your homework Drea-Stanley. A mazda leased at $230 a month is hardly a luxury vehicle. A
public pool pass for the summer again at a deep discount because my second job is for the
city is again hardly a country club membership. I applaud your victim smearing and discrediting
eorts but I will respond to every wild distortion after I go work my unpaid internship while
plowing through graduate school to lift me and mine out of poverty because their vindictive
father paid his $450 an hour lawyer to reduce support down to nothing. Bring it. I will answer
each and every question. Because my sister married a succesful businessman who ran for
senator and lost does not mean I have a penny of his wealth nor what political party I align with
but again I got to applaud your rabid frothing eorts. Since you are local....let us meet and I will
tell you every thing that you think you already know.
13
Reply Share
Kandace > Guest
3 days ago
Julie! Thank you for sharing your story with us.

Page 137 of 196
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Reply Share
Guest > Kandace
3 days ago
I have been speaking since 2008. I have been silenced just as long. Nadia said,
"I won't engage in gossip." I called her thinking she would help. Nope!
Reply Share
drea_stanley > Guest
3 days ago
Wow. All i can hear is privilege privilege privilege. I didn't even know your brother was a
senator. That's news to me. But someone should tell you when you're trying to sound
poor, you don't keep dropping "oh I spend ONLY a couple hundred here or only a
couple hundred here" because for a lot of America, one of those couple hundreds would
make all the dierence.
I'm not backing down, baby girl. Everyone who knows your family knows how the
money tree flows. They know how you roll. I hope it doesn't hurt too many people when
all this hits the fan.
1
Reply Share
Guest > drea_stanley
2 days ago
Drea disappeared and declined my oer to meet and share my tax return.
Reply Share
Zomg Perry > drea_stanley
2 days ago
You sound like the kind of person who goes around policing what people on food
stamps put in their shopping carts.
Reply Share
Guest > Zomg Perry
2 days ago
she just did. according to Drea my doing yoga daily for my sanity at $104
a month is frivilous and luxurious. It's survival.
Reply Share
Stephen M. > drea_stanley
2 days ago
You are one gross sounding person. Wow.

3
Reply Share
AussieCarol > drea_stanley
3 days ago
Drea, I hear a lot of anger in you both at your feeling that Julie has misled others
and also in your family's experiences of poverty. I want to be sensitive to that
and *believe* you as victim of a system and as a testifier to your own
community's story as well.
I understand how someone living in Tony and Julie's community might be very
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taken aback by what is going on online and how they might have information
that seems obvious to them, but is unknown to people like me tuning in from far
away. In this same way, as you enter the online world of people here, some of
what you say in dropping what sound like patronizing endearments to some of
us can be oensive.
I do hear what you're saying about people at least acknowledging that they may
be easily misled by people shoving partial information at them from either side,
but I do think you should also acknowledge that it is dicult for those who want
to go up against religious empires when it appears the local community hasn't
ruled. I do hope when you come back you will at least acknowledge this.
Reply Share
Danica > drea_stanley
3 days ago
"Baby girl" .. really?? How condescending can you be?

Then again you guys have been calling Julie 'batshit crazy' for years now, so
she's probably used to it.
Oh, and pro tip - when you want to be taken seriously, don't create anonymous
profiles just so you can comment on one specific post to troll one specific
person, while talking to yourself using your other ghost profiles. It's painfully
obvious.
5
Reply Share
CurtisMSP > drea_stanley
3 days ago
Julie and Tony are grown adults and are, independently, responsible for the
welfare of their children. Are you saying that when a father sues the mother, it is
the grandparents' responsibility to pay the bills?
Reply Share
drea_stanley > CurtisMSP
3 days ago
Naw, man. I'm saying she keeps her big money in her family's pockets
and everybody and I mean EVERYBODY knows it.
Reply Share
3 days ago
Everyone in Edina has asset shelters. I'm sure Tony's family does too. You
don't accumulate Edina style wealth without protecting your assets
somehow.
I'm not sure how that gives license to Tony to abuse Julie, and use his
network to keep her quiet, and then ditch Julie and not pay child support
for his kids.
1
Page 139 of 196
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Reply Share
3 days ago
What? Where is this big money? My father helped me because their

deadbeat dad drained all accounts canceled all cards and left a stay at
home mom penniless for 18 months but he died in 2011. Drea you're
incorrect in your assumptions but keep talking...go on....bring it....go
on...I'll meet you at 6pm xerxes Dunn bros. Gotta go.
6
Reply Share
3 days ago
I've got nothing to prove, honey. I just wanted people to know who they
are dealing with. And now that I'm googling everything you've said, SH*T,
you're in deep. Maybe some of your internet friends should meet you
tonight for the first time and meet the single mom living in poverty...IN
EDINA.
Reply Share
Tim Wilson-Brown > drea_stanley
2 days ago
And besides, abuse is abuse, even if perpetrated on a (more) privileged

person. And even if she has an allegedly inconsistent story.
Edit Reply Share
2 days ago
But you really need to turn your skepticism on Tony Jones as well. Many
people have publicly accused him of using women, people of colour, and
LGBTIQ people as meat-shields to appear more relevant. That's
disgusting.
4
Edit Reply Share
2 days ago
Either Danica is right, or you've justifiably suered under white privilege

and racism your entire life. I can understand why you'd find it hard to
identify with a white woman then.
Edit Reply Share
AussieCarol > drea_stanley
3 days ago
I understand why it might be intimidating to meet someone who has a

few fierce online defenders that I wouldn't want to mess with. I still
encourage you to consider it, even if you don't know that much about her
situation and were only trying to point out one thing you did know. Maybe
if you knew more you would understand why she comes across online
dierently than you know of her.
Page 140 of 196
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Reply Share
3 days ago
Googling what? My wealthy great grandfather? I'm in deep? For what? I

have asked to meet and share my tax return proving my criteria is met for
government services. You keep diverting my oer.
Reply Share
3 days ago
Some of the worst abuse in Minnesota happens Edina, because victims

there know they have to put up with people like Dre if they speak up.
Did you know they are building a homeless shelter for teens in Edina? Not
because the families are poor, but because there are so many kids
running from abusive homes! The presence of money does not prevent
abuse.
Kind of odd that this type of attack of victims takes place on Nadia's own
blog, yet she stays completely silent?
4
Reply Share
3 days ago
There you go again with the condescension, "honey". I'll bet my eye teeth
you're either Tony Jones himself, or one of the willing sycophants in his
immediate circle who spend their time jockeying for the role of '"lead
narcissistic supply".
4
Reply Share
Kandace > Danica
3 days ago
This is how I felt originally too when people were acting like I was in over
my head. Like they were patting me on the head. :(
Reply Share
KT Pridgen > Danica
3 days ago
I agree with this, which is pretty gross. If you are right, now Tony is coopting the general experience of a WOC to promote his agenda of
vengeance against Julie.
That's low. And just icky.
3
Reply Share
Danica > KT Pridgen
3 days ago
Tony Jones did just recently refer to himself as a 'transguy'. A narcissist

will invent any identity that suits them at the moment.
3
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Reply Share
3 days ago
Oh brother. I doubt he could empathize with anyone else enough to

impersonate someone dierent than he and his academic buddies tho!
Reply Share
3 days ago
Let's meet drea. Back down? From what?

1
Reply Share
3 days ago
You can't shut me up. I may not have the family name or money, but I got
my voice. People here are going to know what you're telling these people.
Reply Share
Stephen M. > drea_stanley
2 days ago
You still haven't told us anything? Some background on Julie's family?

Good for you. A 12 year old with a Facebook account could do the same.
1
Reply Share
3 days ago
Keep talking. No one said shut up. Let's meet tonight. You said you know
all about me so you live in minneapolis. Dunn brothers on xerxes 6pm.
See you there. I'll bring my tax return since you doubt my poverty. Let's
do this.
2
Reply Share
3 days ago
Nobody is trying to shut you up. Julie is trying to talk to you. And it would
be nice if you would answer questions that are asked of you.
1
Reply Share
3 days ago
The world doesn't revolve around Julie. This stinks of such white
privilege. No one (at least not me) has time to be sitting around making
lists about her. I didn't even know half the stu she has said here. I didn't
know her parents were wealthy or her brother was a senator or she was in
college or she belonged to a gym. Wow...I can't even type this list without
privilege leaking out onto me.
Reply Share
Kandace > drea_stanley
3 days ago
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Drea, I actually hear some anger that feels real in my gut in your words. I
don't think it's fair to say those who oppose one's point of view "must be
fake" or "must be jealous" or whatever. I've seen this on other sites as
well and it bothered me. Anyone who agreed with a commenter was
deemed knowledgeable and expert without having to prove it. Anyone
who disagreed was considered a hired saboteur. I saw it go both ways. I
would like to give Drea the opportunity to contact me as well. Her story is
valid on its own, of course, it's not my job to legitimize people, but I just
want to oer that as a way of sharing more information in a safer venue.
1
Reply Share
3 days ago
Ahem.
"You wanna know about single moms? MY MOM was a legit single mom
who worked 3 deadend jobs just to make it into a tiny little house & she
always told me we don't got time for shit, baby, so TELL IT LIKE IT IS. So
you know what all of you need to do before you donate a dime to this
juiced up story? You need to call up one of the guys at Morrie's. Cuz
when your POOR single mom showed up last May and bought 2 *TWO*
BRAND NEW Mazda CX-es CASH MONEY, she made the sales dude's
day. Oops. So that's why me and mine we won't be at the fundraiser to
help her trick out her new cars."
Either you're lying in the statement I just posted, or you're lying in your
statement that I'm replying to.
You're a troll with a fake account who is probably either Tony, Brian,
Doug, or one of their satellite admirers looking to garner favor with them
by harassing Julie. And that's why you won't meet with Julie like she's
suggesting because SHE knows it too, and is calling your blu.
You realize nobody's buying what you're trying to sell here, right?
5
Reply Share
Stephen M. > Danica
2 days ago
Yeah I'm starting to suspect it's actually ToJo.

2
Reply Share
3 days ago
Julie would have been happy to resolve this, quietly, 7 years ago. It is not
Julie making it last so long.
2
Reply Share
3 days ago
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I am white and educated. Absolutely that makes me privileged. It's not

fair. How did my sick and rotten ex not do all I said he did? Sorry you're
pissed I am not suering more or that my relatives aren't poor too. Bye
Drea.
2
CompassionateCristi
Reply Share
3 days ago
Okay,so it is troubling to me that this is coming out. I googled what I could and obviously
there's some truth to what's being said here. Even if Julie underplayed her family money and
her living situation, however, I want to underscore lying about that DOES NOT mean she lied
about EVERYTHING. We should not automatically discredit her abuse story although we should
hold all the information with care. Driving an SUV isn't a crime. And I want to be careful to
repeat this message for other victims regardless of what ends up being true about Julie.
****YOU DONT HAVE TO BE A PERFECT VICTIM****. I do admit as someone who asked her
husband to donate some money set aside for a rehab project at the house, I am feeling a little
embarrassed.
2
Reply Share
Kandace > CompassionateCristi
3 days ago
I hope we find some answers for you although as you may have read me say above, this
is an overwhelming thing. A few have come forward with personal experiences that only
complicate things further. Praying for guidance.
Reply Share
AussieCarol > CompassionateCristi
3 days ago
I think we're all confused, but hopefully the attention these comments have brought to
some new parts of this story will continue to lend more and more help to all of us
wading through the emotions and baggage everywhere.
Reply Share
Guest > CompassionateCristi
3 days ago
My rich relatives relate to my ex how?

1
Reply Share
drea_stanley > CompassionateCristi
3 days ago
Don't feel bad. A lot of people are gonna be embarrassed by this one, girl.
Reply Share
3 days ago
I'm sorry. What exactly are you referring to Drea? I'm right here and transparent
to answer each and every attempt to victim shame and discredit....go....I'm
waiting. I want to meet you here in Minneapolis and let's go line for line what you
think you know about the abuse I have endured for 7 years. Name the time and
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place. I can meet tonight after work. Where? When? I'll bring my tax return. I
need to go work my unpaid internship but will respond to every wild distortion
you can bring. Medical records and psych evals don't lie...Drea.
1
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Guest > CompassionateCristi
3 days ago
Is my mazda 5 that I lease for $230 a month an suv? wow. someone is working overtime
to discredit the victim. I am continually amazed at the machine and its eorts to silence
and discredit me 7 years later after a shoulder tear and an aair exposed. It happened
people. Exactly as I told it and David Hayward was just the person with enough
chutzpah to say screw you when the legal threats were thrown his way. For 7 years
bloggers were told to delete or I will sue you. It was very eective for a long time. "I will
tear your head o if you tell anyone." Yep! That was said word for word so it is not
surprising that the machine to silence and discredit me is in overdrive. Aairs and abuse
can hurt book sales I hear so lets just throw the mother of my children under the bus
despite medical records and psych evals.
4
Reply Share
3 days ago
Wait. Hold up. Did you get a second Mazda 5 for your nanny too? Because your
privilege is showing and I ain't one of these snooty Edina folks who are too timid
to say what is real.
Reply Share
2 days ago
Abuse is real, drea. And that matters.

Privilege is a separate issue, which also matters.
But people don't deserve to lose advocacy just because they get details
wrong, have more money than you, or have more privilege than you.
You can tear other women down in an attempt to reduce their privilege to
your level. But that's a lose-lose scenario.
Why not advocate for all the abused and marginalised, whatever their
level of privilege?
2
Edit Reply Share
3 days ago
I hate Edina! I can't move or I would in a heart beat. You got me all wrong
but go ahead. I stand firm I'm the truth and not sure what my financial
woes have to do with the fact my ex with a PhD from Princeton could but
refuses to help us live comfortably. Sorry I am not as poor as you want
me Drea but rest assured your kids aren't qualified for government lunch
unless you meet criteria proven with tax returns. Peace, Drea!
Again....meet me. Or are you too afraid?!
2
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Reply Share
3 days ago
last time a checked a mazda was hardly a flashy car. My ex to sabotage

my graduate school eorts and working two jobs registered my 3 kids for
activities all summer long against the legal decree (only mom can register)
I had to lease a car for her to drive the kids all day, Now I am stuck with it
and trying to get someone to take over the lease. its a 2013 mazda 3
basic model gets great gas mileage. Not new like you alleged and it's
$230 a month I can't aord. Interested drea? bring it! that's all you have?
wrong car facts?
Reply Share
3 days ago
Wow. You're the only impoverished single mom in the country who has
two cars for them and their nanny. You don't need my help to dig yourself
a hole, do you?
Reply Share
3 days ago
I don't have a nanny. Are you oering to help?

1
Reply Share
Danica > Guest
3 days ago
I'll help! If it's as sweet a job as "drea" makes it out to be, I'm allll over it.
Is caviar part of the perks? What about a satin stool to rest my feet upon
whilst I feast on bon bons and imported cheese?
1
Reply Share
3 days ago
Are you saying that domestic abuse never occurs in Edina, MN?
Reply Share
3 days ago
No it sure as hell does. But folks better figure out who they're dealing with
when they come to the story. What this woman is saying here wouldn't fly
in Edina. I don't care who you got in the room white people, light skinned
people, dark skinned people (in edina let's stay real its white folk mostly),
they would laugh you outta town.
Reply Share
3 days ago
Tony and Julie are both from Edina. Are you saying they are not,
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individually, responsible for their marriage, and their children? that

grandma and grandpa will always cover the bill? That sounds like an
Edina attitude. But in the rest of the country, adults are personally
responsible for their kids.
We shouldn't be talking about grandparents and uncles paying the bills.
We should be talking about Tony and Julie's responsibility.
How are Tony's child support payments these days, by the way?
1
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Carol Curry > CurtisMSP
a day ago
originally the support payments were 1800 and he made them on time
according to court records. They were modified and now she owes him
money because he overpaid...miscalculated by her lawyer when he had
none..and also because he ended up having the kids more than 45
percent of the time which was the original custody arrangement that gave
her that amount of child support. Since he had the kids in reality more
than 50 percent of the time because she left them with him...support was
reduced. Any way you slice it...if I had received half of the support
payments Julie has collected...I would have been on easy street. And as
for the dragging her into court....it seems that the lion share of the court
proceedings has been due to Julie's constant filings and best I can
tell...she never wins the ones she brings.
Reply Share
BethAgain > CompassionateCristi
3 days ago
Yes, this is true and it's what makes this case so potentially complicated.
Victims can act poorly and still be victims. Just because someone is unreliable doesn't
mean the claims should be ignored. But if there are red flags (and there were in this case
from the start) then caution must be taken in jumping to conclusions. It does not mean
you are "siding with the abuser" if you see some potential problems and think they
should be investigated. Staying neutral until more is investigated is legitimate I think, as
long as the claims are still being investigated and not ignored. Sometimes it takes a
great deal of skill and mental health knowledge to tease the truth out of what seems
obvious at first.
There are many who are close to this situation, who have direct experience with those
involved, who are not acting in ways we would have expected given their public
positions. That might be because they are motivated by endorsements or bias or
whatever. But maybe, just maybe, they also understand how complicated this case is
and see that all the public attention paid to it has not helped two people trying to stay
mentally healthy and parent their kids.
1
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JuliannaX > CompassionateCristi
3 days ago
I admit I am far away from the situation, but a source I trusted kept posting about this
and I repeated it to other people so this IS a big deal for me. I need to be able to trust
that victim advocates look into things before repeating. I've read that Julie was driven
into poverty about a zillion times. I am pretty sure I've reposted that on my social media
after seeing some sites and people I thought were legitimate post it. It is NOT okay to
exploit people's sympathy or try to win credibility points by making up facts that are
actually true of many real victims who are strapped, living on welfare, renting subsidized
houses...and not home owners who have AUPAIRS. I am sick to my stomach now. This
is really triggering my trust issues.
1
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CurtisMSP > JuliannaX
3 days ago
Are you saying that women with au pairs are never abused?
Edina MN is a dierent world. In Edina, poverty means having to cancel your
country club membership. (I live in Bloomington so I am entitled to make Edina
jokes!)
But just because women struggling in Edina do not match your definition of
poverty, does that make any abuse they experience less abusive, or less
important?
Reply Share
3 days ago
Ha. You know then, right? Bloomington!

I am all about women speaking up. If you haven't picked up on it, I was
RAISED to STAND UP. You want to say you were abused? Go to it. I will
talk you up. You want to load a bunch of crap onto your story to try to get
people who have never met you and don't know what your real reputation
is, that's a problem. That isn't okay. It's a special kind a sick, man. You
guys got hosed.
Reply Share
3 days ago
I'm glad you are in favor of Julie speaking up. The Emergent folks have
been trying to shut her up for seven years. If she is all exagerared stories
and nonsense with clearly no basis in fact, it makes you wonder what
they were afraid of, doesn't it?
2
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Guest > JuliannaX
3 days ago
I do not have an au pair. I did work for an au pair agency and was able to host an au
pair at a deep discount. An au pair is $175 a week. It is the cheapest form of childcare
btw and I can't aord one anymore anyway. Last au pair I had was last August. Since I
no longer work there and am in graduate school that is out of the question. I hate that
my kids are home alone while I work but that's the situation. Home owner? Hardly. I am
living in a house my mother owned. I do not own a home. Where is this person getting
their information anyway? 7 years of litigation has kept me in poverty and I owe the last
law firm $20,000. I am worried they will take my car. I am disgusted I am answering all
of these allegations but I will and I have never lied once about the abuse I continue to
endure at the hands of a diagnosed narcissist. I will post my tax return. That is how
infuriating this is that this person who thinks they know what they are talking about has
lobbed into the air. You can't get government aide without qualifying. Because I have a
wealthy relative has nothing to do with my current financial struggles.
2
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3 days ago
WOW. Do you know how many times my mom had an au pair? ZERO. I
love how you drop $175 a week which is almost $800 a month like it's
nothing. That's rich girl talk right there, baby.
Reply Share
2 days ago
You clearly don't like rich white girls.

But they can still be victims of abuse, and they can still be driven into
poverty. Or is $20,000 debt not poverty where you come from?
Edit Reply Share
3 days ago
What does an au pair have to do with abuse? Are women with au pairs
immune from abuse?
3
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Danica > CurtisMSP
3 days ago
SHUT UP YOUR PRIVILEDGED MOUTH YOU WHITE MAN! "drea"s fake

profile says she's a WOC from a disadvantaged background so we must
ALL BE QUIET AND ALLOW HER TO SAY ALL THE THINGS. If you
disagree, that's your privilege showing, you racist misogynist.
2
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BigBrowner
10/04/2015 19:49
3 days ago
Ouch. Is it getting hot in here or is it just me? Guess there are some gaps here and like I said yesterday,
maybe this Kandace girl is onto something with poking around this thing a little more. If I were one of the
trolls, I'd be sending someone over to tell Kandace to "strongly reconsider" posting any findings about
Julie as well. But that's not silencing, right?
Reply Share
3 days ago
From what I've read, Kandace is being encouraged by everyone to do her research and
post her findings. Where have you read otherwise?
2
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Guest > CurtisMSP
2 days ago
Kandace,
I would like to fully cooperate with your thorough investigation including oering
the 22 page psychological evaluation, 46 page divorce decree, 29 page custody
evaluation which awarded me sole physical and sole legal custody due to the
severity of this particular mental illness, sex emails while still married, threats to
"sue to the fullest extent of the law if you tell anyone about Courtney Perry."
Contact me, Kandace.
I sought help for domestic vilolence and an aair and was threatened, bullied,
and litigated to death, For 7 years I was silenced and a "she is bat shit crazy"
campaign was launched by my ex husband to discredit the truth.
Many people came forward and apologized for spreading the narrative the
Emergent machine wanted proliferated. They said, " I am so sorry. I never even
met you but was told you were insane and he the suering spouse."
The truth is out there now. It was hidden in darkness at great eort by many for
too long.
If you do not comprehend the magnitude of a Narcissistic Personality Disorder
diagnosis with "sadistic traits" then you will never understand the full picture of
this diabolical story. Those who get it....get it. I am tired of defending myself to
the likes of Drea. Isn't it a lot more plausible it all happened and is happening
STILL as I have reported?
I thank David Hayward and a few brave bloggers for not cowering in the corner
and deleting the truth like the throngs of bloggers over the past 7 years who
were contacted through back channels and threatened to delete or be sued.
Contact me Kandace. I am waiting.
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Julie
1
drea_stanley
Reply Share
3 days ago
I can't believe how scared grown people are sometimes. I don't know who the hell JenSwishes
is, but "I can't talk about the McMahon or Jones family bc I wouldn't want people to talk about
my family." Seriously? Grow the Fu*K up. No sense playing stupid, people have a right to know
if they're being played.
You wanna know about single moms? MY MOM was a legit single mom who worked 3
deadend jobs just to make it into a tiny little house & she always told me we don't got time for
shit, baby, so TELL IT LIKE IT IS. So you know what all of you need to do before you donate a
dime to this juiced up story? You need to call up one of the guys at Morrie's. Cuz when your
POOR single mom showed up last May and bought 2 *TWO* BRAND NEW Mazda CX-es
CASH MONEY, she made the sales dude's day. Oops. So that's why me and mine we won't be
at the fundraiser to help her trick out her new cars.
Reply Share
3 days ago
what are you talking about? bought two cars? have you heard of the penny sale? I lease
reliable vehicles for cheap. am I really defending this? My job pays $11 an hour. That's
about as dead end as you can get. I am in school trying to pull us out of poverty. where
are you getting your information and why are you so rabidly working overtime to
discredit the victim? I find that interesting. The aair, cover up, abuse all happened and
all the smear in the world can't cover that up. Morrie's Mazda penny sale. It's a great
deal for a person needing a reliable car and can't aord to buy one. I had to lease one
for my sitter to drive my kids all day last summer to activities while I worked. I made $3
dollars more an hour than a paid her. What else do you got Drea? Bring it.
2
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3 days ago
Discredit the victim? I can't figure out who the damn victim is in this mess,
honey.
Clearly you got yours either way, right? If you want to pass your $800 a month
AuPair and $100 a month gym and TWO --leased-- Mazdas o as POVERTY,
well I think there's a whole bunch of people who are actually IN poverty that
might not see it that way. Check your privilege.
Reply Share
BaileyWriter > drea_stanley
3 days ago
No oense, but this feels really far-fetched. I can't believe that these watchdog sites
would have been holding GoFundMe campaigns if this woman is known to be buying
two suvs cash.
1
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Reply Share
BaileyWriter > BaileyWriter
3 days ago
PLUS I get how if that ended up being true it would make her look like she is
spinning a story, but just because she may have misrepresented her access to
money to play on people's sympathies doesn't mean that the abuse allegations
couldn't be true. She may have just been desperate to be heard and felt like
making up some unimportant irrelevant details was what it took to get people's
attention. Victims don't have the same luxuries as those who are safe.
1
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JuliannaX > BaileyWriter
3 days ago
I want to arm what you're saying. I just feel a little nervous right now. My
fingers are literally shaking as I type. This is triggering all my trust issues.
Exploiting is never okay. Manipulating is never okay. I don't care if you're
the most powerful liberal woman who heads up the most progressive
feminist organization, you don't get to put out propaganda about
someone to solicit money. That reeks of evangelical scandal and that's
why I came to some of these sites to begin with.
Reply Share
drea_stanley > BaileyWriter
3 days ago
Oh honey, you know what people who own their sh*t call what you're
going through? DENIAL.
I'd back away before this blows up. It doesn't sound like you have a clue
what kind of person you're tangling with when you mess with Julie. Put
her on speedial cuz when this thing blows, you're gonna have a pile of
new info you're gonna want to talk to her about.
Reply Share
3 days ago
Hi Drea. I am not sure what you are referring to. When a blogger in
September refused to back down to the usual threats and legal
attacks....my truth was finally told. It amazes me the machine behind
trying to discredit that truth. The truth remains. It happened and is
happening today. This is what NPD looks like 7 years post divorce. Every
word and eort that has been made to silence me is true. Julie
1
ShaynaG
Reply Share
4 days ago
OMG. I am experiencing RAGE right now. The guy that keeps questioning Candace and telling
her what to do? Who gives him the right to tell her not to investigate? Where to start, who to
ask. That is so disrespectful of her intellect. If she sees something worth looking into, she's
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probably not alone. And anyone interested in real truth and not just spreading gossip wouldn't
be spending any time trying to convince someone not to look into the trolls who are spreading
this stu. I call foul.
1
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CurtisMSP > ShaynaG
4 days ago
For the record, I'm one guy helping her investigate. So it is not like everyone is against
her.
Reply Share
ShaynaG > CurtisMSP
4 days ago
Then stop telling her she should start in the center or not start in the center or
move this way or that way. That's your opinion and it deligitimizes her right to
come to this discussion from her own experiences. Her opinions and ideas are
valid without your addendums and instructions.
1
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CurtisMSP > ShaynaG
4 days ago
It was a suggestion, and I gave my reasoning. But I told her to try it her
way if she wants to. You can go back and follow the thread if you'd like.
1
BigBrowner
Reply Share
4 days ago
If you go poking around the haters trolling Tony, you're just gonna find out this group is all
doing it for dierent reasons. Drury's been covered in major media for trolling Driscoll so
probably there's nothing new to figure out there. Religious satire (or whatever you call it) is her
thing. Some people might be in it just cause they hate Jones (just sayin) and want to see him
fried. They don't even care why. You can usually spot those people 1000 miles away bc they
always keep it personal and RT stu that's not even relevant but just like being mean.
Reply Share
Daniel Pool > BigBrowner
2 days ago
You say "trolling Driscoll" like it's a bad thing.
Reply Share
Stephanie Drury > BigBrowner
3 days ago
If you want to call exposing systemic abuse "trolling" then you're not internalizing what
happens out there. I work with survivors of violence and their reports of abuse are
consistently minimized and brushed aside. People who purport to be advocates even
do this, as evidenced by Nadia and Rachel's response to Julie's story. It's responsible
for so much destruction. I feel it's purely evil. If you want to call naming patterns of
abuse "trolling" then you're playing into the hands of those who would suppress its
exposure.
7
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4 days ago
Or, there is always the chance that some people don't like the church used to pu up
one's own career, while similataniously using the church to tamp down critics.
Especially when the critics raise legitimate concerns about domestic abuse by clergy,
but are met by being deleted or ignored.
5
bethanyann73
Reply Share
4 days ago
I don't understand why anyone is arguing with this girl who wants to check into sources. She
seems naive and I'm afraid she's over her head with this bunch. But the whole point of all of
this is no one gets to control the story! I think it's sketchy if the "don't silence people" suddenly
want to divert people from more light. Hiding something?
1
Reply Share
Guest > bethanyann73
2 days ago
I have asked her to contact me. No one has contacted me. No one with any financial or
career gain. Not one.
Reply Share
ShaynaG > bethanyann73
4 days ago
This is what I am saying. No one owns the exclusive right to investigate this story and
no one has the jurisdiction to tell other people what or how they should approach this. I
seriously hope this was just a gut response gone wrong and not a display of male ego
lording over this girl.
Reply Share
BigBrowner > bethanyann73
4 days ago
I agree. If people silence or pressure or troll you (if you're on social media, I'd make sure
your name doesn't match your name here ), I would look at their connections. Who is
pushing them to shut you up?
Also look for business operators like DH or unknowns like TWB who came out of
nowhere and maybe see this as their free ticket to get "Warren Throckmorton" famous.
I'd like to see how this group works together too. Keep an eye out for parodies all run by
the same person too. I'll send you an email with others I have heard questions raised
about.
1
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CurtisMSP > bethanyann73
4 days ago
One of the problems of telling a story from the outside in is there is no clear boundary
on who to talk to. Do you include only those with 2nd hand knowledge, or 3rd or 4th or
5th, and so on, as well? You cant investigate something without setting boundaries. But
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using her strategy, any line you draw is going to be arbitrary and result in an incomplete
picture.
Seems much more straight forward to start at the source -- Tony and Julie. And if you
can't get information there, go to the people who are able to talk to both if them directly,
like Nadia.
I don't see how working from the outside in will work. But I'm not opposed to try it if
someone wants to.
Reply Share
ShaynaG > CurtisMSP
4 days ago
Oh my God. Who do you think you are?! Do you think as a man that you can just
swoop in here and tell this girl what she can and cannot wonder about or want to
know about? That she needs you to tutor her about how to think about this? Oh
Kandice, look this way, look over there next, but don't look behind that door or
that door or that door. It is sick. This is ugly and it needs to STOP.
1
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CurtisMSP > ShaynaG
4 days ago
I told her I'm not opposed yo investigating. I even gave her some ideas
where to look, and she thanked me.
I am explaining why I think it will be hard to follow her approach. If you
disagree, you are welcome to explain why. But I wish her well in her
eorts. Asking questions from the inside out hasn't produced much, so I
am not opposed to asking questions from the outside in; hard as it might
be.
1
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CurtisMSP > bethanyann73
4 days ago
Not everyone is criticizing her. Some people are helping out. Seems like a lot of work to
paint a picture from the outside in, but if painting from center out hasn't worked, it might
be worth a try.
1
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Kandace > CurtisMSP
4 days ago
I did feel like you were being controlling and maybe suggesting I should turn my
head and look the other way. LOL. I appreciate your tone and clarifiers here
though. Let's just all do our best to bring our own unique experience and talent
to this and respect each other's right to ask questions and check sources etc.
Reply Share
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Kandace
10/04/2015 19:49
5 days ago
((Sorry for the typos and edits. I wrote this on a tablet and my typing skills suck on those.) I have seen a
lot of pushback against the well known personalities who have made statements on Tony's behalf.
Things that looked into how their revenue streams were linked and such. I confess it never occurred to
me (embarrassing?) to personally check into the sources who continue to post and tweet and hashtag
about this.
Eveb though I did also notice it's often the same group of people, until today that made sense to me bc
I assumed they were local residents or disaected leaders in The congregation where tony Jones
serves. It made sense they would have firsthand information and would naturally have reason to hold
Tony jones accountable if these allegations were true. Looking back, I am not sure why I thought this.
After I read JenSwisher's post below, I began to google some of the people who continue to post about
this and I found it is a pretty confined and linked group of people as well. I think there are a variety of
reasons people might have involved themselves at this level however. They could be prone to being
protective of victims bc they have experienced abuse themselves or something like that.
But I don't think it would hurt to look into this more. If others are willing to help me identify the people
who have most consistently tried to draw attention to this, I would be happy to try to get one of my
reporter friends or even a regional foundation that funds peacemaking work to investigate these
sources. I think it would be great to give these people the opp to share their stories and hear from them
directly about how well they know Tony or Julie and how deeply they have been involved or what they
have been eyewitness to. It can only serve to help all of us understand each other and the
sources/credibility of the information better. Please feel free to reply to this comment with the names of
people whose names stand out to you below or volunteer yourself if you are someone who has raised
accusations after being locally or closely tied to the situation over the years. Thanks everyone. I love
how we can collectively bring so much light to this scenario.
2
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CurtisMSP > Kandace
4 days ago
Reinforcing Danica's point -- any thorough investigation would start with interviewing
the victim and reading any if her statements that are available. The primary complaint
against Tony, as well as Nadia, is that he has ignored and wrongly discredited the
accuser. Any good investigation has to start with not ignoring the accuser, lest it
become part of the same pattern of ignoring and dismissing the alleged victim.
1
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CurtisMSP > CurtisMSP
4 days ago
Another source of both criticism as well as support has been the closed ELCA
Clergy FB group. You would want to look there, as well, if you want a
comprehensive list of persistent critics.
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Kandace > CurtisMSP
4 days ago
Totally agree. I have cheered on every person bringing Julie's account to light so
that she is able to tell her story about HER OWN life! I've been a careful reader of
her many comments on several sites and social media posts which have
described in detail her complaints. Her story is further captured by documents
also available via court records which you can find on Brad's post, if you're
looking for more.
Allowing the general public to understand who the others are who have
presented themselves as sources of information and opinion on this only allows
everyone's investigations/data to work together to inform us. Thanks for your
insights, Curtis!
Reply Share
CurtisMSP > Kandace
4 days ago
If you have cheered on the telling of Julie's account, what has your
response been to those have deleted Julie's account, or dismissed her as
mentally unstable?
1
CurtisMSP > Kandace
Reply Share
4 days ago
Because when concerns are raised, one should always start by questioning the
character of the accuser, right?
Go ahead, knock yourself out. Investigate all you want. We have nothing to hide; we are
much more accustomed to being deleted and ignored, so if you are willing to listen that
is great. You can start by going to the SCCL facebook page and researching people
who have posted about it there. The wartburg watch and David Hayward's blog would
be good sources to, if that helps.
Just be sure to spend equal energy investigating TJ and his network.
1
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Kandace > CurtisMSP
4 days ago
Not at all. I've been following this story for months. I've found several sources
analyzing Tony which I can share if you email me. BC of some comments here
and on other sites, some have questioned the goals of the people continuing to
put this in the public eye. Now that so much web trac has been generated to
create space for Julie to tell her story, it'd be helpful to understand what is
driving this small group of people to continue. It can only add more light. And I
agree with you, those who have nothing to hide don't have anything to worry
about. This is just an opportunity for them to reinforce their credibility and share
more of their own stories. And if there is any other motives or connections that
are motivating them, I think that would be important too.
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Reply Share
Danica > Kandace
4 days ago
Well you could certainly start by talking to Julie McMahon herself.

2
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Kandace > Danica
4 days ago
I accept that Julie and Tony are eyewitnesses to their marriage and have
appreciated the chance to listen to their respective accounts, which have been
given a lot of web space already. Just filling out the picture now by sorting
through who these sources are and how they are related. More light, you know?
Reply Share
CurtisMSP > Kandace
4 days ago
It seems obvious that you start coloring the picture by talking to Tony and
Julie first. Let us know what you find out.
1
Reply Share
5 days ago
I'll give you a hint. Most of us trying to keep this from getting pushed under the rug are
doing so because we've been there, in one way or another. Look me up. That's fine.
Tony is following the same script my ex followed, the same script that so many men
have followed to discredit women. That's why I've been commenting online.
Although I'm not sure why you need the cops involved, but whatever makes you feel like
you are covering all your bases.
3
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5 days ago
Thanks for sharing! I have already received a couple emails and so far it's been
unsurprising stu. I appreciate you being forthcoming about how your own
experiences have played into your desire to be active in this conversation.
Actually, no one who has responded so far has mentioned your name as
someone pushing an agenda, but since you kindly replied, would you be willing
to clarify if you also have personally been an eyewitness to any of the in person
actions between Tony and Julie?
(I think he was saying a retired cop might have online investigative skills. That's
how I took it anyways.)
Reply Share
CurtisMSP > Kandace
4 days ago
The public characterization of Julie as mentally insane is available for

anyone to read who wants to do a little research. Anyone who looks has
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been an eyewitness to that.

1
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5 days ago
No, I don't know either of them personally. That's why I have generally
tried to limit my comments to the things that have been supported by the
released documents (that Tony was emotionally abusive). I'm frustrated
by the hypocrisy of a group that will call Mark Driscoll out for his abuses
but ignore it in their own camp.
I also think many of his blog posts show that he has no humility and no
real concern for the marginalized in the church which makes him, IMO, a
poor Christian leader in and of itself. But mostly it's the abuse.
4
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5 days ago
Thanks again for your response. Appreciate your transparency. I also

think it shows a lot of wisdom that you've exercised caution in the claims
you've made. It actually gives the things you do say, like lack of humility,
more credibility in my mind because it shows you aren't just venting bc
you hate him but are making an eort to be responsible about what you
pass along. Thanks again.
Reply Share
Guest > Kandace
2 days ago
Kandace,
I keep oering. Contact me.
Julie
1
Reply Share
5 days ago
Thanks for the polite interaction!

I also wanted to add that I do *believe* Julie when she says Tony was
physically abusive and has been abusing her through the legal system
through constant litigation. The latter especially does fit the common
behavior of a person with NPD who has not accepted the damage their
disorder causes. But having no direct contact with either, I find it more
responsible for me personally to focus on what I feel I *know* (via the
released documents).
1
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SHPryor1 > Kandace
5 days ago
I think you are brave to even suggest this. It might be a good idea for you to set up a few ways
for people to contact you with information about those pushing this agenda. I recently learned
about a conflict of interest with one of those who has tried to rally people around these
allegations and I would be willing to share it privately, but not here.
It might also be good for a few people to work together on this so there are more perspectives
and more eyes to help identify everyone's subtle biases.
1
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Guest > SHPryor1
3 days ago
I am happy to speak to anyone.
Reply Share
Kandace > SHPryor1
5 days ago
I understand SHPRyor. Anyone who has a similar tip or would like to help can
email me at this address: kandacebrenner@email.com.
Reply Share
B_Class > Kandace
5 days ago
I would be really curious to hear about these people's experiences. While I am sure the
people who retweet or like things don't necessarily have personal experience that is
relevant, I would be surprised if I found out those who are pushing these allegations
around the internet don't each have lengthy ties to the Jones family. If they don't,
they've just put themselves in a bad position.
I also haven't seen any of the writers who have been digging into this like R.L. Stollar or
Brad Sargent cover this angle by investigating the sources of a lot of the material that
ends up on Twitter etc. Although I guess Stollar and Sargent themselves would be on
the list technically.
1
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Kandace > B_Class
5 days ago
Update: two more emails came in late last night. A couple things. The list is not
as long as I thought. It is actually a relatively small group of people who are
Posting about this online. Two, so far, it looks like I was a little o base. None of
the people driving the allegations online were in shared leadership, live locally or
knew the couple prior to divorce etc. Several of the most active sharers run
watchdog websites where religious critique is their primary content.
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Kandace > Kandace
5 days ago
There HAS been a few notes of concern about a couple individuals who have
been consumed by posting this on social media. Some conflicts of interest and
personal profit questions have come up, as well as some real concerns about
how disconnected a couple of them are especially those living far away who
have become so consumed by it. I have had some referrals to people with online
research expertise who might be able to help determine if a couple of them are
even real people. This will likely take a while but we will find a way to share out.
For today, I don't want to dominate this discussion on a day of religious
remembrance that may be sacred to many here. I will make sure the research is
done thoroughly and is shared publicly though.
Reply Share
Ragnarok > Kandace
3 days ago
So let me see if I'm reading this correctly. You appear to be suggesting

that you've discovered some people who have been persisting in keeping
Julie's story in the public eye are doing so despite conflicts of interest
and for personal profit. Is that the gist of it?
Likewise, your statement that you "have had some referrals to people
with online research expertise who might be able to help determine if a
couple of them are even real people" could easily be interpreted as a
veiled threat of potential doxxing. After all, whomever you happen to be
referring to must be real people unless we're seeing an incipient rise of
the machines in the form of computers posting online autonomously. Can
you share your plans concerning what you mean to do with your research
should you find that these sources have remained anonymous online for
specific reasons, as they undoubtedly have?
It's one thing for private individuals to criticize a public figure such as
Tony Jones anonymously, even when that criticism addresses otherwise
private actions since he has routinely claimed that his ex-wife is unstable
to the point where it became a widely held belief in his circle of influence.
It's a similar thing for people to criticize Julie McMahon, despite her
status as a private individual, because she made the choice to go public
with her story. Publishing the identities of private individuals who have
commented online under pseudonyms, regardless of how extensive or
vitriolic that commentary may have been, is quite likely subject to a
number of laws.
By all means, do your research. Before you make the decision to begin
publishing your findings, however, I would strongly urge you to consider
carefully what the potential consequences are. At the very least, consult a
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professional beforehand. You're treading very near a line beyond which

lies considerable risk.
1
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Guest > Ragnarok
2 days ago
His supporters do not know me. I met Brian McLaren once in 2007. I
know Doug Pagitt well and he knows that I am an amazing mom and
person. In fact, he asked me to help start his church plant in 1999. I
believe he is torn and has too many financial ties to be honest about all of
the BS that went down and he looked (and continues to look) the other
way. He has not been honest about his part in trying to cover up the aair
he knew about and he and I both know that. As far as the vast network of
authors, speakers, promoters....they don't know me and have never met
me but have dutifully globed on to the narrative to keep the empire and
interlocked contracts alive. Never underestimate the power and
machinations of a narcissist. This has been like shouting into a hurricane
and I will keep talking. The truth gives me great peace and it should be
told. This "Godly people" are frauds. It's very disappointing.
2
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SHPryor1 > B_Class
5 days ago
I do think the bloggers should be on the list although I expect as you do that
they know this family personally or had some shared leadership experience with
them in the Emergent movement. Still research should still examine all the
sources to sift out what's what.
1
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SHPryor1 > SHPryor1
5 days ago
It might also be good to start making lists of hashtags that have been
used and screen capping people who have tweeted using these
hashtags.
1
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B_Class > B_Class
5 days ago
I would also like to add that you should probably not use the peacemaking
organization as they wouldn't have the correct skill sets. A seasoned reporter
that has reputable investigative work would be good.
I'll also check with a former cop friend who has done work with online stings in
retirement. Maybe he'll have some ideas as well.
1
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Kandace > B_Class
5 days ago
I would totally welcome his help or anyone else with this sort of
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background. Especially those with technological skills.

B_Class
Reply Share
5 days ago
After all of this appeared on the R.L. Stollar site, I personally wrote several of the companies
and organizations that are aliated with Tony in which I knew employees. I asked them why
they were continuing to employ a known abuser and suggested their silence was deafening. I
was surprised when one of them responded by stating that their company's lawyers and their
board had looked into the allegations extensively, costing the company hundreds or maybe
even thousands of dollars in legal fees. They said that this case had been severely
misrepresented by well-meaning watchdog communities and that the actual total body of
evidence suggests a far more complex scenario that does NOT implicate Tony Jones as a
physical abuser. (They did acknowledge it was a terrible divorce, but would not comment on
the specifics despite my follow-up questions.) I have asked them twice now to publicly
respond, but they do not believe doing so would help correct the public record since many of
these matters have been argued about and have had judgments rendered about them for
years.
While I don't condone the lack of transparency in these dealings, I have noticed that A LOT of
reputable Christians and organizations who have far more power than Tony does have
continued to align themselves with him while an increasingly small group of people keep
putting this info out in public. That makes me think there is something to this company's
response because I don't think they would risk the liability or PR disaster if they didn't have
rock solid evidence that something was amiss in these allegations.
I am still following this case open-mindedly, but the certainty of their legal department gives me
great pause since they have every reason in the world to want to protect their own brands from
this publicity nightmare.
2
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Kandace > B_Class
3 days ago
Please feel free to email me. No one asked me to explore your connections, but since
you have volunteered info, it might be helpful.
Reply Share
Ragnarok > B_Class
3 days ago
Surely we don't need to go over the long list of supposedly reputable companies which
have either committed or covered up terrible acts when it's clear they would have
ultimately been much better o had they simply come clean from the start. We really
don't, do we? Both individuals and companies have been rendering themselves
complicit in acts they did not commit for no good reason for as long as there have been
individuals and companies.
It strikes me as potentially naive on your part to accept the story you've been told. A
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company which is supposed to face real liability in this matter continues to employ and
to associate with a Christian leader who is facing serious allegations of abuse after
having "looked into the allegations extensively", but that same company refuses to
release the findings of its legal department publicly because what you characterize as
"an increasingly small group of people" have argued the opposite of those findings?
This scenario strikes you as plausible?
Furthermore, you mention that you've noticed "A LOT (sic) of reputable Christians and
organizations who have far more power than Tony does have continued to align
themselves with him", and somehow you've concluded that this behavior serves to
exonerate Tony Jones? Are you unaware of Rachel Held Evans's infamous claim of
having thoroughly investigated the allegations against Tony Jones only to backtrack
immediately upon being challenged, and then her follow-up statement clarifying that her
investigation did not include speaking to either Tony Jones or Julie McMahon? I
sincerely hope you are not laboring under the misapprehension that Christians and
faith-based organizations would never participate in a cover-up, knowingly or otherwise,
due to their own interests. It's also the case that sometimes people are so invested in
something or someone that they don't investigate reports of bad behavior because they
just don't want to face the reality of their own mistakes. It's a very human failing.
Limiting ourselves to just this century, we've already had notable examples of exactly
this sort of thing related to Paul Crouch, Douglas Goodman, Kent Hovind, Ted Haggard,
Paul Barnes, Lonnie Latham, Gilbert Deya, Richard Roberts, Earl Paulk, Coy Privette,
Thomas Wesley Weeks, III, Michael Reid, Joe Barron, Todd Bentley, and George Alan
Rekers, to name only a few with even a modicum of notoriety. Haven't heard of every
person on that list? Well, if that's the case it's because some of them aren't superstars
of evangelical Christianity, and that would serve to demonstrate that one doesn't need
massive wealth at risk in order to be up to no good and receiving aid in covering it up.
How many times have we heard large organizations who were supposed to have some
degree of authority or influence over those under scrutiny assure the world that they had
investigated the person in question exhaustively, and subsequently cleared them, only
to discover that the allegations were true? (Answer: Many, many times.)
None of the above proves anything specifically applying to Tony Jones, but if you wish
to conclude (even provisionally) that what you've cited in your comment aids Jones's
case then I would strongly urge you to reconsider. A private statement of support
accompanied by a refusal to follow through publicly doesn't bespeak confidence.
Conjecture based upon such a statement is an exceptionally bad idea, and it bespeaks
a real desire to believe those in power over those who claim to be victims of that power.
3
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wordvixen > B_Class
3 days ago
Is this a religious company? Because if their concern is over their reputation by allying
with him, then maybe they should be concerned with his almost-concretely-provable
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cheating on his wife.

2
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Danica > B_Class
4 days ago
They read the police report and concluded he didn't physically assault her? I think
perhaps they need to find new lawyers.
4
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KT Pridgen > B_Class
5 days ago
"They said that this case had been severely misrepresented by

well-meaning watchdog communities and that the actual total body of
evidence suggests a far more complex scenario that does NOT implicate
Tony Jones as a physical abuser."
And what about emotional abuse? The documents I've seen are pretty clear that Tony
was gaslighting Julie, which is emotional abuse. Should we tolerate emotional abuse
from our Christian leaders as long as it doesn't turn into physical abuse?
3
Mark
Reply Share
6 days ago
So many of us raised within evangelicalism or other religious industrial complexes had hoped
that folks like Nadia, Rachel Held Evans, and Brian McLaren might leave behind the lust for
money, fame and book deals/endorsements that plagues Western Christianity and show us
something dierent. Rather, the dismissive, Vatican-like silence in the face of serious
allegations shows us that these progressives/emergents are just the latest mutation in the
cancerous Christianity of the West. While some involved in the Tony-Julie story have already
apologized to Julie in the Naked Pastor thread (and thus confirmed that there is indeed
wrongdoing here), these progressive "leaders" claim there is nothing to be concerned with
other than purchasing the alleged abuser's latest book. Indeed, they assure us there is no need
to stop the presses of the latest must-have controversial book (that we are promised will
change our lives forever) -- no need to proceed cautiously and investigate serious allegations.
Publication dates must be met, CNN blogs posted, and speaking/book tours kept on schedule.
And so, those of us who have watched history repeat itself over and over for decades can, with
little doubt, toss the writings and opinions of this lot onto the trash heap with Jim and Tammy
Bakker, Benny Hinn, Ted Haggard, Pat Robertson, John Piper, Mark Driscoll, and on-and-on
the list goes and grows. Far from resurrection Sunday, American Christianity buries itself
deeper into the doom of Good Friday.
2
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Stephen M.
6 days ago
This is insane. People aren't "questioning" someone's integrity. This diagnosed narcissist has
sued his abused ex-wife into oblivion, gas lighted her and gotten all his "progressive" buddies
to do the same. The court documents have been released and they are incredibly damning.
Does that mean we should damn him to hell? Of course not! But we shouldn't shut victims up
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because we have endorsement deals or an anity for the "celebrity" who did the abusing.
What is wrong with you people? Nadia I used to look up to you, you helped me feel like there
were people in Christianity who weren't afraid of the bully's and abusers and now you protect
one? Wouldn't it be more Christ-like to show him and his victims love and ask for help instead
of circling the wagons?
I'm done. If this is how your Jesus acts you follow a Jesus who is very dierent from the one I
see in the Bible who loved and cared for the victims and the abused.
9
Karen
Reply Share
6 days ago
Lots of comments here questioning the moral character and integrity of the author. My
understanding is that we have only had one perfect teacher in all of history...and we only got
Him once in the flesh a long, long time ago. Since Him, we've been stuck with leaders,
philosophers, pastors, twitter, teachers, priests, writers, church elders, Mtv, monks, poets,
nuns, facebook, gurus, family and friends all of whom are full of faults, mistakes, impure
thoughts, idiosyncrasies, and sometimes downright bad manners. We are not supposed to
worship them. We are not supposed to idolize them. We are not supposed to devote our lives
to them and hang o of every word they utter, or think that just because they said one thing
that makes sense everything they say must be right. If the only teachers we had were perfect
and exactly lived up to the ideals they expressed, our library shelves and book stores would be
empty of books, our schools would be empty of teachers, and our lives (and heads) would be
all the emptier as well. Thank goodness moral perfection isn't a requirement to teach or share
one's thoughts and ideas. Thank goodness we are just as free to pick and choose the authors
we wish to read, as we are free to ignore or reject the ones we don't. And thank goodness we
don't have to sign a disclaimer swearing eternal fealty (even temporary fealty) to every thought
and idea inside every book we pick up - or to the authors themselves. Reading a book does
not endorse its ideas, nor does it endorse the author. And endorsing the content of one book
does not endorse every single decision or statement its author has ever made, or his/her
lifestyle. So make your own choices, learn what you can or want from others, reject what you
need to reject, and be at peace...
4
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Ragnarok > Karen
3 days ago
...and pay no mind to the report that the endorser of the author hung up on a woman
asking for her help because she didn't want to hear about the bad things the author had
done. Furthermore, there is no need to give any level of consideration to the endorser's
decision to more closely associate with the author publicly and professionally despite
allegations of abuse coming to light. No, one should feel absolutely confident that
nothing bad could possibly come from listening to people who conduct themselves this
way, and it's not as if the Bible has anything to say regarding the character requirements
and the public reputations of those who would lead and teach. Since none of us are
perfect, it's not necessary to exercise any critical judgment concerning the actions of
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those who wish fervently for us to pay heed to their words and follow their teachings
(not to mention spend our money). Because that's what Jesus was all about.
2
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Karen > Ragnarok
3 days ago
Actually, I was advocating critical thinking...not blind following. And something

called discernment...which we are all free to use, even if it means we disagree
with each other. You, and a lot of others are apparently angry and disappointed
that someone you felt should be setting a better example, didn't. Learning to
discern the dierence between the wisdom of our teachers, and their faults, is an
important skill. That was my point. If that's too hard, best of luck to you in finding
someone of this world who is perfect so you can blindly and unconditionally
follow...
Reply Share
Ragnarok > Karen
2 days ago
I am quite angry and disappointed, but not for the reasons you insist on
applying. I'm angry and disappointed because a man who claims to
follow Jesus (which, for the record, I do not claim) works tirelessly to
wreak vengeance upon the mother of his children, and still other people
who claim to follow Jesus either stand by and say nothing or actively
defend and support the person relentlessly attacking the mother of his
children.
You, while claiming to advocate critical thinking, simply belched a block
of text which purports to encourage others to think for themselves yet
actually encourages others to move along and stop worrying about what
terrible wrongs may have been done in the name of a person you hold to
be the "one perfect teacher in all of history". In eect, what you've written
is little more than a free pass for hypocrisy.
This is not about a book. The post at the top of this page is, but the
subsequent discussion most certainly is not. If you don't understand
what's happening, it's best to wait to comment until you do. Or, at the
very least, to ask questions so that you might understand better rather
than condescending to people with this codswallop.
2
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Karen > Ragnarok
2 days ago
According to you: you are angry because people aren't acting the way
you feel they should. That IS exactly my point, and many of the early
comments WERE about the book, which is what I was also responding
to. Subsequent posts have taken a dierent turn; I am not part of that
discussion. I am not encouraging others to ignore anything, I am
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encouraging people to take responsibility for their own education and not
expect "teachers" to be infallible, and throw a fit just because Nadia
endorses a book by someone you all hate. You don't have to like him; you
don't have to read his book; you don't have to agree with Nadia's choice
to endorse it; you don't have to approve of her; you don't have to like her.
Good for you.

jenswisher
Reply Share
6 days ago
I need to say something. There have been many people...some influential, some
"ordinary"...who have spoken up in defense of Tony Jones. And many of them were demeaned
and dismissed no matter what they did. If they were silent, they were criticized for not
speaking. When they voiced dierent conclusions than those attacking Jones, they were then
criticized for coming to dierent conclusions.
The thing that makes me lose sleep at night though is that these people are not the only ones
who feel this way. I need you to know for the sake of my conscience: There are many others
like me who are totally normal not famous people who disagree with the story being spun
about Jones. (No one thinks he's an angel, mind you.) I need you to know that among those
who have been witnessing this family's drama for YEARS, including those of us who don't even
like Tony, that it is common knowledge that there are serious problems with how this supposed
abuse story came to evolve and be shared the way it did. It's literally the secret the whole town
is in on but it's like no one has told the internet.
But I am scared. I am not comfortable going
online and arguing with complete strangers who harass others. Who wants to do that?
But I am asking you now to please do your own research.
Don't just read some cut and pasted paragraphs put together by people who hate Tony or
people who dislike Julie, but if you really have a stake in this, check it ALL out. If you're an
organization that has some authority or aliation here, request all the documents from both
parties. Pay attention to the sources that keep popping up. You've probably already noticed it's
the same group of people who are going on Twitter, on Facebook, on blogs or wherever and
continuing to make accusations. Literally, someone could make a list of the names of the most
vocal attackers and they could be interviewed.
Click on their names, read their bios, look them up on the internet, notice what ties they may
have had to Tony in the past. What do they do now? Do they make money o of religion or o
critiquing it? Do they gain any sort of fame or popularity or personal validation o religious
figures or critiquing them? Ask each of them: How did you meet Julie McMahon? How much
time have you spent with her in real life? Did you know Tony and Julie before they were
divorced? How much time did you spend with the family then?
Look into the poeple supporting Tony and ask the same questions. Why would people,
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sometimes complete strangers in dierent states or countries, take up the cause of bringing
down a public figure about Tony? What about their experiences have led them to be consumed
by a goal like this? What personal experience do they have with this family? What professional
credibility do they bring to the table and so on? Ask the same questions of Tony's supporters.
Read how this devoted band of critics is communicating. Is it kind? Does it respect basic
human decency? Do they come o as people moved by justice and a desire for humane
treatment? Ask this of Tony's supporters as well.
What group of people is more qualified to judge this than ocials and judges and the family's
local communiy? If someone were to be more qualified, what would that person or group look
like?
I am scared to death to post this, but I am more scared of being the kind of human being who
doesn't stand up for what they know is right.
10
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Kandace > jenswisher
3 days ago
Jen, please email me. I know you've mentioned you are scared (so am I), but there's
nothing wrong with sharing your experience even if it contradicts other people's
experiences.
Reply Share
Gretchen > jenswisher
6 days ago
Regarding examination of sources close to the story, what do you make of the
psychological evaluations performed? The psychologist's job was to evaluate and make
recommendations regarding custody. Her loyalty/obligation was to the needs of the
kids. The reports make a COMPELLING case that TJs pathology was toxic to the family
and his marriage. Do you think the psychologist had a stake in this somehow? Because
I care little about who said what in some gossip mill... In my opinion the psych reports
are all one needs to read to form a reasonable opinion...
4
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BethAgain > Gretchen
5 days ago
But that psych report (which never should have been released - ugh) is just one
piece of what is almost certainly a complicated situation. It is one professional's
opinion. They have seen other professionals. Do they agree? We don't know. Are
there other diagnoses given? We don't know. If so, which are the most accurate?
We don't know.
Often what looks like typical abuse cover-up is. But sometimes these situations
are so messy and complicated that what initially seems true is not. Those of us
out in Internet world cannot fairly evaluate this stu.
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Of course, those trying to cover up abuse count on that though - that people will
just take the easy way out and throw up their hands and say it's all too
complicated and not anyone's business. This particular case though. . . I have
had the sinking feeling from the get go that nothing but damage has been done
by the eorts to make it public.
1
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wordvixen > BethAgain
4 days ago
Beth- Tony actually went on record on his own blog stating that he's a
diagnosed narcissist. If *he* is willing to accept it as a legitimate
diagnosis, then why argue over who did the diagnosing?
2
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B_Class > Gretchen
5 days ago
Gretchen, from what I understand, the excerpts from the psych eval were
primarily taken from the portion in which the therapist captures the patients'
tellings of their stories. The therapist wasn't actually present as an eyewitness to
the events spoken about. Not sure whether you saw another commenter on a
dierent website bring this up, but apparently the therapist whose paperwork is
quoted here was selected by Julie's law firm and represents her findings over
just a few days during this period of marital duress. For whatever reason, R.L.
chose to cite ONLY the therapist chosen by Julie's firm, not the work of other
therapists who have testified in cases between these two parties. This was also
not the therapist who has treated Tony for six years. If you know anyone
connected to this case and can gain access to these other records, it might help
you understand why this is in question.
1
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Ragnarok > B_Class
3 days ago
The psychologist who performed the court-ordered evaluations of both

Jones and McMahon was chosen by the court, not by either side's
representatives. The evaluations were accepted by the court as findings
of fact by an expert witness, not mere opinion. As such, both sides in the
case were required to stipulate to the facts in those evaluations. If Jones
had a leg to stand on in denying the psychologist's factual basis for her
conclusions then his attorney would have objected to the findings as
biased at the time they were submitted to the court. Since those
evaluations are part of the record, that means that either Jones's attorney
did not object or that any objections were heard and overruled.
Everyone is free to deny these findings, of course, but to do so begs the
question of why one should believe the skeptics instead of the court. So
far, after many challenges in a number of places, I have yet to find anyone
willing to step up and answer that question. I would be interested to learn
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whether you have an answer, B_Class. Do you?

2
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Guest > B_Class
5 days ago
Point taken. Though I don't think we know that the psychologist evaluator
was anyone's therapist at the time of the evaluation. That would be an
inherent conflict of interest if that's the way it went down. Typically, if not
always, the court evaluator is a neutral party. I have no doubt that Tony
and Julie have or had their own therapists--but I didn't think either were
the psychologist who did the assessment. If that's the case, it would be
highly unusual and worthy of scrutiny.
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Gretchen > Gretchen
6 days ago
Also, I think it's important to remember that people don't have to be perfect in
order to be victimized. That is, just because someone has faults or perhaps
annoying characteristics doesn't mean they weren't abused or mistreated.
I appreciate your perspective as it sounds like you have a lot of inside
information most of us are unable to access. Thank you for sharing this far.
4
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KT Pridgen > Gretchen
5 days ago
Yes, THIS. I do not know Julie personally. While I know she is not perfect
(being a human being and all), I do not have personal knowledge as to her
strengths, weaknesses, and mistakes and how extreme they are.
What I do know is that despite any of that, the court documents clearly
lay out that professionals had determined a man was having an aair and
telling his wife her suspicions were because of a personality order that
she did not have. That's the very definition of gaslighting which is
emotional abuse. That's all I need to know. Christian leaders need to be
called out for abuse. (As a side note, being imperfect does not mean
abusing that person is justified. Actually, it took me a long time to learn
that lesson and forgive myself for my own imperfections, so it's a topic
close to my heart.)
BTW, Jen, I do appreciate your take on things!
5
JRGRE > jenswisher
Reply Share
6 days ago
As someone else who lives in this community (and I think knows who you are if this is
your maiden name?), I want to thank you for speaking up (it does take courage) and
caution you about saying any more about Julie (or any of them) for your sake and for the
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sake of those involved.

I raised some similar questions on Stollar or TWW (I can't remember? Maybe both?)
because I get tired of people speaking about this situation as if it's all a bunch of
celebrities. These are real people. With real children. This discussion of their lives has
cost all of them BOTH PARTIES a great deal. Those of us who know them in real life and
who are working, as friends, to move past some of the false notions toward group
healing get frustrated by these online outbursts from strangers that often set back real
life progress.
I know there is more you could say about Julie's patterns with others to attempt to
show people why questioning is important in this case, but I implore you not to get
sucked into the weird addiction to get people to "REALLY understand" and to make
them "get it." This only adds to the vulnerably, messy information they have about this
couple which this group will continue to dissect in their tabloidish-blogs at this family's
expense. The courts and agencies are the only ones who need to understand Julie's
history. For the sake of her children, please don't take the bait to keep giving them more
concrete information.
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jenswisher > JRGRE
6 days ago
Oh my gosh. I feel sick now. First, please don't give people my current last
name. I don't want these people to turn on me. I was trying to help and you're
right I probably shouldn't stay in this conversation. I'm not that familiar with how
online stu works and I barely ever do this sort of thing. I just felt guilty that
everyone kind of knows about the misunderstandings that are out there and a lot
of locals just talk about it but don't want to get our hands dirty. I guess ultimately
that is true of me too because I don't want this to come back on my family in any
way.
I am so sorry if I said anything that sets back the work of people like you who are
friends trying to help this family. I should have clarified that I am NOT friends with
them, although I know of and have met them and have known others in their
extended families for a long time. I have nothing to do with their church
community or anything although I am a Christian and do follow along with that
scene and they are sort of well known in the circles of church people out this
way as you probably know.
I just meant to say that the financial piece (while she may not be independently
financially stable, which is regrettable) has been portrayed very dierently than
her actual experience. (I don't think people commenting were picturing a full time
summer nanny watching their kids in a 4-bedroom house in a $350k+
neighborhood...) Obviously you probably know some of the other credibility
patterns I was referring to better than I do if you are closer to the situation. It just
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seems like the whole thing is based on such faulty information, it scares me what
the internet is capable of doing to people as they fight for their lives.
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JRGRE > jenswisher
6 days ago
Look, I think it was fine that you suggested people look into the sources
who keep posting about this on the internet. I do think that A LOT would
become obvious if people did just ask the questions you suggested about
whether these people really are well positioned to judge better than those
in the local community or whether they have other predispositions or
other motives/background which lead them to be overeager advocates or
to overstate their real expertise.
But I do NOT think you should have given them that information about her
family's wealth or her privileged status here and I do NOT think you
should give them any more examples of concrete information about her
no matter how much they ask. It won't accomplish anything except for
make you feel like you showed them up and proved your point (at their
family's continued expense).
The reality is, the people who are tweeting about this or posting about it
over and over, they get to go on with their lives. Those kids have to live
with everything that is posted and how it trickles out to people like us and
parents of their friends everyday. That has to matter more in the end than
whether this handful of internet people get the full picture or judge it the
way we think does the family justice.
I think it is clear that on every front, but especially on the internet, what
has been done to this family is incredibly unjust. Adding more wrongs to
the online pile will not right the wrongs already there.
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SHPryor1 > JRGRE
5 days ago
This seems like silencing the other way to me. If she has stories to share
about Julie, this isn't about a divorce, it's about determining whether the
very serious allegations being raised about abuse and religious coverup
are true. If something in Julie's past is relevant to these accusations, no
one here should discourage the sharing. She does not have to be a
"perfect victim" as others have stated. We can honor that but still take
seriously our responsibility to understand if there are strong reasons to
believe the allegations are not trustworthy.
Reply Share
BethAgain > SHPryor1
5 days ago
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But it doesn't have to be done in social media. Julie has publicly made
abuse allegations against Tony and spiritual abuse allegations against a
group of emergent leaders. These need to be investigated - the question
is what is the best way to go about that? The kids have seen their father
talked about very poorly online, often by people who don't even know
him. I can't see how it would benefit anyone, especially them, to see it
happen to their mother too.
Whether appropriately or not, Julie is considered an abuse victim by
many in the Christian abuse support community (as far as I can tell
anyway). It would be nothing but ugly to start specificly talking about why
her allegations should be questioned. Surely there is a way for someone
or a group of someones to investigate privately and then release their
findings publicly with some careful details. I know there was an
investigative journalist who came onto TWW and said she had been
planning to do a story but found it too complicated to tease out a clear
storyline. There has to be a way. Calling for sources online would be
great. Discussing details and stories about Julie before the investigation
was complete does not seem good to me.
Reply Share
JRGRE > JRGRE
6 days ago
Oh also, I meant to tell you that they already posted your comment on
Stu Christian Culture Likes. I looked for you on Facebook based on what
I think your current last name is, but couldn't find you. I will try to find a
way to contact you in case you want to talk about this oine. If you have
figured out who I am though feel free to make contact as well only if you
want to. I don't mean to sound harsh about this, I am jsut really tired of
this family being discussed online as if their hardship and ugliness is
fodder for entertainment.
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jenswisher > JRGRE
6 days ago
okay yes. I get it. Again I am sorry. And yes, it's fine to reach out to me
privately. I have no idea who you are but I will ask my husband if he
knows you when he gets home.
1
BethAgain > jenswisher
Reply Share
6 days ago
I am not involved with this in any way other than reading what is out there. I hear what
you are saying though and share some of your concerns.
I think there is a good chance that the situation is more complicated than is being
presented. I understand abuse dynamics and personality disorders pretty well, and I still
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have glaring questions about this story.

I believe though that once abuse allegations have been made, social media is not the
place to evaluate them. Those who have been accused by Julie cannot appropriately
defend themselves online, partly because it would just turn into a nasty trashfest with
people distorting things and interpreting them in the worst light. Also, I think those
involved know enough about these issues to understand defending themselves is a very
tricky thing, given the power dierentials and the nature of the allegations.
I understand those who accept, based on the info they have now, that Julie is a victim
and Tony is an abuser. This has all played out similarly to how many stories of abuse
happen. I see those who are advocating for her to be acting out of sincere motives.
Goodness knows the problem of ignoring and mishandling abuse claims in favor of the
abuser is usually MUCH worse than the other way around.
However, again I see some serious red flags that do not necessarily fit and personally
give me pause. I wish so much that others would recognize that this needs to be
evaluated privately. Keep the pressure on to have the claims evaluated, but I think it is
quite possible that deciding Tony deserves the labels he has been given is premature.
Anyone who makes the claims Julie has deserves to have those claims taken seriously. I
am guessing that those involved initially severely underestimated the way allegations
can take on a life of their own. I think many directly involved do not see Julie as a
trustworthy source, and they may be correct enough for this to have been a huge
disaster. I honestly don't know and wouldn't be surprised either way. I fault them
though, for thinking they could evaluate it themselves, say it wasn't true, and then just
try and suppress her allegations online. Anyone with knowledge of how misuse of power
happens is going to roll their eyes.
These allegations are serious and they aren't going away. I hope they can be evaluated
by someone both sides trust enough to share their documentation. Having followed all
of this though, my hopes are dwindling that this could happen. I think there are a myriad
of issues that make it less likely.
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Adrenalin Tim > BethAgain
6 days ago
I believe though that once abuse allegations have been made, social media is not
the place to evaluate them. (...) Keep the pressure on to have the claims
evaluated, but I think it is quite possible that deciding Tony deserves the labels he
has been given is premature.
That's fair enough. But until they have been evaluated, it is supremely
irresponsible to pretend nothing has happened, to try to cover up the allegations,
to host conferences and endorse books and in every other way try to keep the
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machinery of power running. Especially given the NPD diagnosis.

These allegations are serious and they aren't going away. I hope they can be
evaluated by someone both sides trust enough to share their documentation.
Me too. From what I have seen, Julie has made many eorts to make something
like this happen, and Tony has made every eort to shut it all down, in favor of
silencing and threatening and innuendo behind the scenes.
2
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Adrenalin Tim > jenswisher
6 days ago
Hi jenswisher, thanks for your comment. I hope that your fears of being harassed turn
out to be ill-founded, and I hope that you feel your voice and perspective are heard.
I am not personally involved with any of the parties. I've seen a couple of the speakers,
and been reading books and blogs since the mid 00's, but that's it. I'd like to think I'm
an independent (which is of course not to say impartial or objective) observer, a seeker
after the truth.
So, that in mind, I'd like to ask you to clarify your comments. I'd like to take you
seriously, and I believe you're posting in good faith, but my initial impressions of what
you wrote are that it comes across--well, as trying to redirect criticism of Tony Jones
onto his accusers, using pretty much the exact accusations as those raised against
Tony and his supporters.
Are you really saying that an honest look would reveal that Julie McMahon--who cannot
even aord her own legal fees to enforce court-ordered custody of her child--is the
party with all the money and power? That a "follow the money" approach would
conclude that those with the book contracts, mutual endorsements, and joint speaking
gigs with one of the parties have no potential conflicts of interest? That the real victims
of being dismissed and silenced are not the ones calling for openness and
accountability, but the ones who have put out information and removed it, who have
deleted and censored opposing voices, who have made legal threats & requests to
third-party blogs to delete unfavorable content and comments? That the man who selfadmittedly has been diagnosed with pathological manipulativeness, compulsive lying,
and inflated self-importance is the real party being wronged here? That the multiple,
disparate, firsthand accounts of the smear campaign to label Julie as "bat-shit crazy"
are all fabricated? That David Hayward is making a load of money o of the platform he
provided Julie? That Brother Maynard, Bill Kinnon, Stephanie Drury, Dee Parsons,
Matthew Paul Turner, RL Stollar, and others are in it for fame & popularity & selfaggrandizement?
Please, be concrete. Otherwise I can't make heads or tails of what you're saying. You
caution people to research "both sides", and I'm willing to do that. But Tony has
evidently retracted every statement he's made about the controversy, including those
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claiming that he was just about to release some primary evidence to support his
"documented facts". Tony's supporters have all gone silent since RL Stollar posted
primary documentation.
So tell me--where should I go for "the other side's" perspective? To be honest, all
you've oered here is innuendo, nothing approaching evidence. Tell me, jenswisher,
where should I go to learn the secret that "literally the whole town is in on"? Why don't
you tell it here?
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jenswisher > Adrenalin Tim
6 days ago
Hi Tim, thanks for responding respectfully. I feel somewhat uncomfortable with

online communication. The online world just isn't my thing.
I feel torn. This came up the other day among a group of parents. We all feel
torn. It doesn't feel like the right hting to discuss this (someone else's stu) on
the Internet. None of us would want our families discussed this way. At the same
time, we can barely believe that a group of people keep posting some of the
things they do. Without being too down about it since I'm sure some of them are
nice people just trying to do the right thing, it is super obvious they aren't from
around here or haven't known this family for long.
I don't feel comfortable saying anything demeaning about the Mcmahon or
Jones family. I wouldn't want someone discussing my personal life or track
record on the internet, no matter what I did.
I think one way to help the public understand just ONE PLACE where this story
rings untrue based on what is common knowledge is to look at the way Julie is
being portrayed as a struggling, single mother. (This information may not have
come from Julie, perhaps it is just the assumptions that people have made about
her.) But in our community, everyone knows Julie as a member of the Thelen
family, a BIG Texas oil family (you can google this, I'm sure, but they made HUGE
money).
Or do people realize that Julie's sister is married to Mike McFadden? CEO of a
high brow private equity firm? Yes, the Mike McFadden. The one who just made
a run to be a U.S. Senator. You can google that too and find out that Mike's net
worth is thought to be as high as 60 million or something like that. (This came
out in his campaign...)
Anyways, the Julie McMahon everyone knows around here is this woman who
owns her own house in a classy high-priced suburb, who owns an SUV, who
belongs to a very elite high priced gym, who ALWAYS has new clothes, and on
and on and on. I'ts become a running inside joke that Julie McMahon is
"penniless". For God's sake, her summer nanny (or "au pair" or whatever they
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call it) shows up to drop her kids o at the pool or whatever. We all roll our eyes
about penniless Julie who bragged about going on some retreat in Mexico last
month and has apparently booked an expensive vacation to take her kids to
Mexico on vacation soon. I don't want to be mean, but really. Someone actually
suggested maybe the online stu was about a DIFFERENT Julie McMahon
because single moms dream of the kind of "penniless" life Julie McMahon lives.
As I say, I don't feel comfortable talking about other run-ins or red flags peopl
ehave had related to Julie, but I think you could find this out pretty easily by
asking around if you do live anywhere nearby. Just feel badly about this bizarre
thing that is happening online and wonder what's going on to make people rush
around theinternet making accusations. It's not my place to spell out suburban
Edina life for internet strangers, but please I just encourage everyone to ask
more questions and maybe speak as if you have the awareness that what you're
passing around is just ONE opinion or version of a much bigger story.
1
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Guest > jenswisher
3 days ago
Hi Jen. Not sure how my sisters husband makes me suddenly not living
below the line of poverty. An au pair cost $175 a week. I worked for the
company and was able to get a deal. Am I really defending this? I'll go on.
I live below the line of poverty and my kids qualify for government
lunches. The pool you speak of? You mean the public pool? Oh, okay.
Hardly an "exclusive" club. Expensive gym membership? My yoga
membership? I pay $104 a month because I joined in 2006. That is my
metal health and with a narcissist ex....I need it. Expenisve SUV? My
mazda? I pay $230 a month for a reliable vehicle. Expensive Mexico
vacation? My best friends time share that she generously gave me a
week. We flew Sun Country $250 flight using one way flights each flight.
I'll answer each and every question. Although it disgusts me but does not
surprise me my vindictive and mentally ill ex husband would like to
control a counter narrative. Edina life? I can't move. I would in a
heartbeat. Because of my ex husband I literally have to stay in Edina until
the kids graduate. Big Texas oil money? I wish I had that. Sounds
wonderful. My great grandfather was a wealthy man. Again, not sure how
relatives wealth translates into my being on government health care
because I qualify. I don't know you. However, you seem to think you know
me. May you never know that stress of not knowing if you'll have enough
money for groceries to feed you kids. While your ex retains a $450 an
hour lawyer for 7 years driving you into unfathomable poverty because
you have to respond to over 18 legal motions. I am in graduate school
and hope to pull us out of poverty as soon as I am able. It will be another
year at least. Thank you for your inaccurate judgement of me and my
situation. I am not surprised that his people would work so hard to create
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a counter narrative. Take care, Julie

3
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6 days ago
Hi jenswisher, thanks for the follow-up. That is something concrete. So

Julie has relatives that have money. Honestly, I don't see how that
changes anything. I don't see how one could infer from where she lives,
what she wears, or what she drives anything about the state of her
personal finances or her ability to aord legal representation.
More importantly, the presence or absence of money in her family has no
bearing on allegations of abuse, the multiple accounts of silencing, lying,
and gaslighting, and the giant elephant in the room, the diagnosis of
Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
Some people may want to divide the world into 100% Good Guys and
100% Bad Guys, "perfect victims" and "perfect oppressors". That's not
what I want, and every indication I've seen is that that's not what Julie
wants. She just wants to be heard, and I think she deserves to be taken
seriously.
jenswisher, I'd like to ask if you have taken your own advice: have you
taken an honest look at "both sides"? Have you read the allegations in
the nakedpastor thread, and the corroborations of Julie's accounts by
people like Andrew Jones, Brother Maynard, and Bill Kinnon? Have you
read the documents posted by RL Stollar? Have you read the timelines
pieced together by Brad Sargent?
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jenswisher > Adrenalin Tim
6 days ago
Yes, I have literally read every word of the posts on those sites you
mentioned...as well as several others...and all the posts/comments on
SCCL as well. This is what led me to leave a comment yesterday because
I couldn't believe that this many months later, people were still passing on
this version of information.
I agree with you that if abuse occurs, it would not matter how much
money is involved in various families. I only chose this piece of concrete
info because it was the only one that allowed me to refer to already public
facts (her family's wealth and her assets which color the story dierent
than the Penniless Julie version) without saying anything TOO
disparaging or personal about her track record in our community.
The financials are just the beginning of a trail of actions that raise serious
concerns. I don't care if anyone here likes Tony or ever does. But I do
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care if people have been duped into making a mockery of a family and
their children based on really slanted, partial information. I hope those
who choose to continue to post about this haven't just texted Julie (on
her vacation, as she solicits your donation) or taken the pieces of docs
she has sent, but have actually asked the hard questions of everyone
involved. If you did this, I don't think you'd emerge a Tony fan (nor have I).
But I also don't think you could in good conscience think that it makes
sense to be a vigilante for this version of the story.
2
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6 days ago
I'm not after any "version of the story". My position is, and has been, that
until the full story is out, the allegations are serious enough that Tony
should not be given a platform. I find it irresponsible for him to be fted
as a speaker and author and a serious & respected voice within
progressive Christianity. Especially when such honors being given to him
are feeding into and enabling his disorder.
6
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Naismith > jenswisher
6 days ago
I do happen to know both Julie and Tony and have known them for
years.I
knew them when they were married. I live in southwest Minneapolis right
across France Avenue from Edina.Jen, I want you to know that in spite of
the innuendo you seem hesitant, but ultimately eager, to pass along, Julie
has no money. In fact, she is deeply in debt as a result of the legal fees
arising from motion, after motion, after motion filed by her ex-husband to
either reduce child support or flip custody (which is often nothing more
than another cynical way to get out of paying child support). Look it up in
the court records. Tony has filed over 3 dozen motions over the past
several years. If it seems insane it's because it is. This is what Narcissists
do, They manipulate the court system in an attempt to destroy the person
they have targeted and that person is usually the one who poses the
biggest threat to the carefully constructed false narrative they like to
perpetuate about themselves.Our messed up court system provides them
with a handy way to continue to abuse. It is shameful.
I don't want to seem disrespectful, but you seem interested in other
people's money. Please extend that same level of interest to Tony, as
well. How is he paying his lawyers? How does he manage to travel the
world, take weekend trips to New York and LA, sip the expensive Scotch
and smoke the Cuban cigars he likes to tweet about all the while claiming
he is too poor to support his children at the level the court has ordered?
How much money does Tony's parents have? Does he have other
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wealthy relatives? And when you are done asking those questions, please
consider the following:Julie works multiple jobs (one of which is as an
oce helper at a hockey rink) to try to make ends meet and to try to
provide for her family. She lives where she lives because of the school
system and the quality of education it aords her children. She does not
own the home she lives in and the car she drives was given to her. She is
a proud person who was only willing to accept these gifts because she
was left with no other choice. She has been know to give free room a
board to young women in exchange for a little help with her three kids
(that includes driving her kids to places they need to be). The truth is that
if it were left up to her ex-husband, his children and their mother would
most likely be homeless. Next time you get together with your friends in
Edina, please be sure to pass along these tidbits of information. Maybe
then you and your friends would not be so quick to feel sorry for poor
Tony.
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wanderer > jenswisher
6 days ago
"I'm not comfortable discussing other people's private lives online, and I
don't want to be mean, but.(several paragraphs of personal
information about Julie that sounds envious and mean)"
Did I get that about right?
What do her family's finances have to do with abuse, control and
manipulation she reports to have lived through?
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CanIbeFrank > wanderer
6 days ago
Well, SCCL just posted on their FB page that Julie "doesn't have money
to pay for an attorney" so that does seem interesting that either her family
isn't willing to help her out financially when apparently they are quite
wealthy or that she's not willing to take money from them. That doesn't
directly have anything to do with whether or not she was abused, but it
does make me wonder why SCCL continues to make it seem like she is
indeed penniless and can't aord an attorney when that might not be the
case (though it does speak to a certain narrative that they are promoting).
These are her kids and custody is on the line, right? I can only speak for
myself but all my pride or whatever would go out the window if it came
down to needing money to keep my kids. I would do anything--even take
$$ from my jerk of a brother if I could.
I state this only because in my experience acrimonious divorces rarely are
a matter of one person 100% being the victim and the other person
100% being the abuser. There's probably a whole lot more to the story
than what's being revealed so far and I think that's what "jenswisher" is
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saying. But to even whisper to such a thing is risking getting the wrath of
the SCCL poured upon us. I too have hesitated to comment at all since I
too would rather not be piled on, even if it is anonymously.
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wanderer > CanIbeFrank
5 days ago
So.. you miss the point of why SCCL is talking about this, and you're
jealous of Julie's family's money. Got it.
4
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Loved Perfectly/Not Afraid > jenswisher
6 days ago
Now this is the stu that needs to be known. Doesn't change anything is
she is a victim of abuse, and I'm hoping this isn't small town gossip.... but
I do thank you for sharing.
Also, wealthy relatives don't mean that it's healthy for a woman to have to
depend on them. And if an abuser make me dependent on my family,
(who would take care of me) I would still be a victim and the abuser would
still be wrong.
I think the point is that monsters live in the dark...... and while nobody
cares about the divorce or the personal aspects of these folks lives,
shining a light on abusive behavior is the only way to make abuse go
away for good.
As long as abusers can keep the abusees quiet, the cycle will continue.
THAT is what I'm against. Not Tony, not Julie, Not Nadia, or Rachael or
Bryan or any of them..... but I AM and always will be against perpetuating
the cycle of abuse.
4
CurtisMSP
Reply Share
6 days ago
When does your endorsement deal with Tony expire, so we can stop hearing about him?
6
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Tim Wilson-Brown > CurtisMSP
2 days ago
I doubt Nadia can disclose that, Curtis.

It's like a warrant canary. When it disappears, you know the deal is up.
Edit Reply Share

M Didaskalos
6 days ago
[from the Amazon.com description of Tony Jones book] "Many Christians believe that God the
Father demanded his only Son die a cruel, gruesome death to appease His wrath, since
humanity is so irredeemably sinful and therefore repugnant to God. Tony Jones, popular
progressive Christian blogger, author, and scholar, argues that this understanding is actually a
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medieval invention and not what the Bible really teaches. He looks beyond medieval
convictions and liberates how we see Jesuss death on the cross from this restrictive paradigm.
Christians today must transcend the shame and guilt that have shaped conceptions of the
human soul and made us fearful of God, and replace them with love, grace, and joyfulness,
which better expresses what the cross is really about.
Sounds reminiscent of a Nadia sermon on Christ the King Sunday: . . .And just to be clear:
The cross is not about God as divine child abuser sadly sending his little boy o to be killed
because we were bad and well, somebody had to pay. . . .On the cross we don't see a legal
transaction where Jesus pays our debt. [ http://www.goodreads.com/autho... ]
Talk about demolishing a straw man. So much of progressive Christianity these days seems
to be straight out of the Barbra Streisand School of Theology: Feelings. Nothing more than
feelings.
The Bible plainly teaches that we are inexhaustibly, unutterably, unfathomably, forever loved by
God. *We* arent repugnant to God. Its our sins that are repugnant to a holy and righteous
God. And yes, we are irredeemably sinful. Big sins, little sins: it really doesnt matter. We, like
David [Psalm 51] and the entirety of humankind, were conceived and born in sin, and we do a
lot of sinning once were born. If we dont repent of our sins and receive a Savior who takes our
sins and gives us His righteousness, we dont go to heaven. And that legal transaction is Gods
love story: Jesus becoming incarnate of the Virgin Mary, living a sinless life, and going willingly [
http://biblehub.com/john/10-18... ] to the cross. Even joyfully to the cross: . . .for the joy that
was set before him [Jesus] endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right
hand of the throne of God. What joy is that? The joy of bringing many sons and daughters to
glory."
Jesus didnt die because He ticked o the Romans; He wasnt the Great Social Activist. Jesus
didnt die to show us how to face death bravely; He wasnt the Great Example. He was, and is,
and will always be the Savior from sin to those who as He declared from the outset of His
ministry repent, and believe in the Gospel.
The writers of the God-breathed [ http://biblehub.com/2_timothy/... ] New Testament epistles
echoed these requirements for entrance into the kingdom in many places, among them here:
** "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the
righteousness of God. (NIV) 2 Cor. 5:21
** "and He [Jesus] Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin
and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed." (NASB) 1Peter 2:24
Repent, Jesus? Die to sin, Peter? You mean I have to repent of and turn away from, like, all
sin? Even my favorite sins? Even the sins reclassified by progressive denominations'
commissions and convention votes? Don't you realize how harsh those imperatives are to
postmodern ears that crave constant tickling from progressive churches?
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Brother Martin Luther faithfully picked up on the Bible's themes of repentance (even from our
favorite sins; see below) and belief in Jesus as the sole Savior of humankind as sine qua non
Biblical mandates for all who desire to spend eternity with Jesus:
". . .I have often said that there are two kinds of faith. First, a faith in which you indeed believe
that Christ is such a man as he is described and proclaimed here and in all the Gospels, but do
not believe that he is such a man for you, and are in doubt whether you have any part in him
and think: 'Yes, he is such a man to others, to Peter, Paul, and the blessed saints; but who
knows that he is such to me and that I may expect the same from him and may confide in it, as
these saints did.'
"Behold, this faith is nothing, it does not receive Christ nor enjoy him, neither can it feel any
and love and aection for him or from him. It is a faith about Christ and not in or of Christ, a
faith which the devils also have as well as evil men. . .
"That alone can be called Christian faith, which believes without wavering that Christ is the
Savior not only to Peter and to the saints but also to you. Your salvation does not depend on
the fact that you believe Christ to be the Savior of the godly, but that he is a Savior to you and
has become your own." ["First Sunday in Advent" -- Sermons of Martin Luther, volume 1:
Sermons on Gospel Texts for Advent, Christmas, and Epiphany, Baker Books, page 21
http://www.orlutheran.com/html... pts. 8-11]
Even on Easter Sunday (or, undoubtedly, *especially* on Easter Sunday), Luther thought it
critical that his hearers not fail to grasp the link between Law and Gospel, of repentances
inextricable link to saving faith:
. . .Nor may we in our works and in our daily life tolerate the yielding to the wantonness of the
flesh and at the same boast the Gospel of Christ, as did the Corinthians, who stirred up among
themselves divisions and disorder, even to the extent of one marrying his stepmother. In such
matters as these, Paul says, a little leaven leavens and ruins the whole lump - the entire
Christian life. These two things are not consistent with each other: to hold to the Christian faith
and to live after the wantonness of the flesh, in sins and vices condemned by the conscience.
Paul elsewhere warns (I Cor 6, 9-10): Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor
adulterers, nor eeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor
drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. Again (Gal 5, 19-21):
The works of the flesh are manifest . . . of which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you,
that they who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
"Warrant is given here likewise for censuring and restraining the rash individuals who assert
that men should not be terrified by the Law, nor surrendered to Satan. No! it is our duty to
teach men to purge out the old leaven; we must tell them they are not Christians, but devoid of
the faith, when they yield to the wantonness of the flesh and wilfully persevere in sin against the
warning of conscience. We should teach that such sins are so much the more vicious and
damnable when practiced under the name of the Gospel, under cover of Christian liberty; for
that is despising and blaspheming the name of Christ and the Gospel: and therefore such
conduct must be positively renounced and purged out, as irreconcilable with faith and a good
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conscience. [Martin Luther, "Easter Sunday Sermon": http://www.lutherdansk.dk/Web-...

pts. 9-10 ]
Repent of sin. Die to sin. Mighty radical and uncompromising Christianity, that. No wonder a
bunch of mainline Protestant churches have turned progressive. No wonder theyve decided
to go with a Bible-bowdlerizing, feelings-exalting, world-pleasing gospel. No wonder theyve
been peddling cheap grace and universalism. Who'd want any part of a Biblical Christianity
that's been ruing the worlds feathers since A.D. 30?
Other than Jesus and His disciples in every age, that is.
1
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Loved Perfectly/Not Afraid
6 days ago
I am so disheartened by those who made a name for themselves advocating for the abused. It
seems that you can only oppose abusers that aren't close to you.
6
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BethAgain
6 days ago
I hope you, Nadia, and other leaders who are part of this situation call for an independent
investigation into these allegations by someone who is experienced in abuse and mental health
issues. There is no overseeing authority in this case, and the allegations are not going away.
I have followed it closely and I understand why you and others might not want to address it in
social media. While the courts can be helpful in some situations, I don't think this is one of
them (or maybe I should say only partly helpful). The allegations are important, but many are
outside the interests of the court. Besides, even verdicts in TJ's favor will not be trusted by
those who have not found the court system helpful themselves.
An independent investigation will allow all the voices to be heard, and ducumentation that has
no business being publicly released can be evaluated. I hope all of you encourage this to
happen. I know Brian McLaren tried to suggest this at first and I wish that had been the
outcome, but it isn't too late. The current stalemate with everyone involved just twisting in the
wind is painful to watch.
2
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Rob Brown
7 days ago
While Tony may have major "defects of character," his writing is intriguing, if not inspiring. (I
would have to read more to speak about the "inspiring" bit.)
I am reminded, though that Saul, at first a persecutor of Christians, provided some intriguing
information about the Christian life.
All of this makes me very sad.
I guess I know too many "bad guys" who have provided the church with important spiritual
benefits.
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Stephanie Drury > Rob Brown
7 days ago
Rob, no one is talking about "defects of character." We are talking about this:
7
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jestraka > Rob Brown
7 days ago
You're comparing Jones to Saul/Paul? Really? And as for the "bad guys who have
provided the church with important spiritual benefits", I suppose it was that same
rationale that has prevented the Catholic Church from addressing THEIR "priestly
problems".
1
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Danica > jeffstraka
7 days ago
Many people say that they received 'important spiritual benefits' through the
work of Mark Driscoll as well.
There was actually a discussion on this over on SCCL a few days ago, re: RHE.
How do you reconcile her willful disregard of her crony's victim with her work in
advocating for women's voices in the church? It's a sticky, messy,
uncomfortable, disheartening, discouraging conundrum.
3
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Danica > Rob Brown
7 days ago
A huge dierence being that Saul had a turning point where he was faced with his sins,
repented, and then spent years in the wilderness deconstructing before coming out
again to do the ministry of the cross. And even when he came out, he went first through
the apostles in Jerusalem, getting their blessing before proceeding into his own ministry.
8
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Adrenalin Tim > Danica
7 days ago
We want that restoration story so hard that we're willing to skip right over the
confession, repentance, restitution, reconciliation, and rehabilitation.
Hence we see Mark Driscoll already on his comeback tour, before the fallout is
even complete from the last megachurch he drove into the ground. I guess with
ToJo, the restoration is happening even before admitting that there was a fall at
all. -_5
jestraka
Reply Share
7 days ago
Nadia - it's not your (or Tony's) theology that is the cause of "detractors" - you both are twenty
years behind the progressive edge. Your (and Tony's) detractors are caused by your being
arrogant, self-aggrandizing, self-centered jerk-wads, not the least concerned about the
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marginalized and the oppressed for whom your Jesus seemed to champion. Some might also
use the word "hypocrite".
7
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Barbara Dick
7 days ago
"Spiritual wife". Sorry, still can't stop laughing.

9
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Zomg Perry
7 days ago
I get the feeling a lot of these comments aren't going to be around much longer (unfortunately).
4
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nakedpastor
7 days ago
I'm very disappointed that in the face of some serious accusations about TJ's behavior in the
past, his book is still being promoted by his peers. I have experienced his silencing maneuvers
first hand from him and his supporters! Peer review means nothing anymore. We know this
even from the scientific community (link below). Instead of stopping to inquire we are rushing to
silence. Here's the link that should raise our suspicions about peer reviews:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...
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Loved Perfectly/Not Afraid
7 days ago
Are you seriously okay with endorsing someone who is a confirmed narcissist?
10
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Tim Wilson-Brown > Loved Perfectly/Not Afraid
7 days ago
Regardless of any diagnosis of mental illness, it is important that people are held
accountable for their actions. (This may include recommendations to get appropriate
treatment.)
In the case of Tony Jones, it is alleged that he physically abused his ex-wife, Julie
McMahon, had at least one aair while they were still legally married, and when she
found evidence of this, he engaged in private and public gaslighting to mitigate the
accusation.
It is alleged that, as a result of Tony's accusations towards Julie, several Emergent
leaders at the time (it is important to note that this group did not include Nadia BolzWeber or Rachel Held Evans), sought to have Julie committed to a mental institution
under highly pressured circumstances.
Tony Jones has continued to wage a legal battle against Julie for the last 6 years, over
issues as diverse as custody, alimony / child support, and protection orders. This
includes an alleged incident of entrapment where he held the children several days past
his custody period, then called the police to be ready at his place when Julie arrived to
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pick them up. (He used to be the police chaplain.)

The undeniable, publicly visible results of this conflict between Tony and Julie are
several court cases, Julie being left as a single mother barely above the poverty line,
and Tony as a minor Christian celebrity who always has money to travel and pay
expensive lawyers. Make of that what you will.
9
Edit Reply Share
Loved Perfectly/Not Afraid > Tim Wilson-Brown
6 days ago
I'm with you, Tim.... sorry my remark didn't indicate that or seemed to target
mental illness.
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Eris, elder daughter of Nyx > Loved Perfectly/Not Afraid
7 days ago
I don't know anything about Tony Jones, but, as someone who was spent a good deal
of time working with the mentally ill, I'm uncomfortable with your implication that having
a personality disorder (in this case, narcissism personality disorder) makes one
automatically unfit for having their book endorsed.
3
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Loved Perfectly/Not Afraid > Eris, elder daughter of Nyx
6 days ago
I have a mental disorder. (I'm in remission) :) So my point wasn't the mental

illness..... my point was the fact that this mental illness accounts for the other
things he has done that makes him unendorsable in my eyes. What he has done
to his now ex is abusive. What his buddies have done in helping him to cover it
up or pretend it didn't happen, is criminal.
2
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Adrenalin Tim > Eris, elder daughter of Nyx
7 days ago
What Tim W-B said, plus...

Someone with NPD is pathologically unable to empathize, unable to see his own
faults, egotistic and entitled. Concern and care for people with NPD does not
include feeding their sense of self-importance and assisting them in silencing
and cover-ups.
2
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Tim Wilson-Brown > Eris, elder daughter of Nyx
7 days ago
There are a number of important distinctions that need to be made here - I'm
going to post them in separate posts so that the context is clear, and because
Disqus works poorly on my computer:
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Having a personality disorder, or any other mental illness, shouldn't automatically

disqualify anyone from public support or endorsement.
However, publicly support, admiration, power, and leadership responsibilities
should be carefully handled with someone with Narcissistic Personality Disorder
(NPD). These sorts of actions can make a Narcissistic Personality Disorder
condition worse, and interfere with any treatment plan that may be in place.
However, it is up to Tony Jones to take responsibility for managing his own
condition, and to ask for what he needs. I can't really see how it's up to Nadia,
except to perhaps be aware of her friends' and colleagues' conditions, and oer
support and ask questions privately.
If Tony Jones doesn't want public endorsements, he shouldn't be blogging
provocatively, writing books, speaking, running conferences, or running a social
media and events company. However it happened, he could have discouraged
the mobilisation of Emergent figures with large public platforms to support him
and criticise his ex-wife. But it's hard, as many of these activities are tied to his
income streams.
3
Edit Reply Share
Becky Rouzer Northcutt > Eris, elder daughter of Nyx
7 days ago
It doesn't disqualify him as an author but it does make him a hypocrite, since he
falsely accused his wife of something that is only true about him.
4
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GrumpySmurf > Becky Rouzer Northcutt
6 days ago
Hey, I'm an alcoholic. I openly admit it. Booze destroyed my life. But (and
here is where I am dierent from TJ) I got sober. I did the hard work,
made the committment, humbled myself, and got sober. Yes I still am
aected by the fact I'm a drunk, even after 31 years of sobriety. But I'm
sober.
All these folks who say he has good things to say miss the point. You
can't trust a narcissist. You shouldn't enable a narcissist. Until he gets his
shit together, and confesses, and gets help, I'm not interested in anything
he has to say.
Shame on you.
1
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Danica > Loved Perfectly/Not Afraid
7 days ago
Self admitted narcissist, no less.

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Rob Brown > Danica
7 days ago
Self-admitted narcissist? Strikes me as being an oxymoron, perhaps. If he is aware, he

should be working on the problem.
Reply Share
Adrenalin Tim > Rob Brown
7 days ago
He admitted to the diagnosis, but in an ohanded, minimized, deceptive

way. A part of the diagnosis is the denial that they have a problem.
5
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Rob Brown > Adrenalin Tim
7 days ago
7 days ago
Thank you. So very sad!

1
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Indeed. And compounding the sadness/horror/injustice of it all is the list

of "progressive Christian" luminaries endorsing Jones' work and turning a
blind eye to his behavior.
2
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7 days ago
How many of those "luminaries" are aware of the intimate details of Tony
Jones life. Or am I the only one who feels like he has been living under a
rock in this case?
Reply Share
7 days ago
We know for certain that Nadia Bolz-Weber, Rachel Held Evans, and Brian
McLaren are aware.
RHE claimed to have done "diligent investigation" and "looked into this
carefully" enough to know that the allegations were false. Later she
admitted that she had not spoken to Julie or seen the documentation.
She has been (publicly) silent ever since the documentation was
published, and has reportedly deleted comments about the situation on
her Facebook and blog.
NBW has been mostly silent, publicly, but surely knows the allegations
Jones withdrew from promoting a conference put on by NBW and RHE a
couple months ago, amid the outcry.
BMcL has been in close proximity to the situation from the beginning,
with reactions ranging from ignoring Julie, to slandering and joining in on
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the active silencing, to sort of maybe threatening to sue her, to saying he

was interested in some sort of mediated conversation with her.
If you're interested in more of the back story, news of these allegations
became public knowledge late last year through David Hayward's
(nakedpastor) post Tony Jones on Mark Driscoll: What came first, the
thug or the theology? It was one of the first times that Julie was permitted
to tell her story. Over the course of 3 months and 1000+ comments, there
was clarification, repentance, and forgiveness on display, as well as
attempts to silence, gaslight, manipulate, and censor. Some of the big
names participated there.
I somewhat suspect that this and other comments about the situation will
be deleted before long. So it goes. The public channels I have been
following for updates on the scandal are the blogs at nakedpastor and the
Wartburg Watch, and the Facebook community Stu Christian Culture
Likes.
6
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7 days ago
Thank you for the information, Tim. This is quite the learning experience
for a Canadian Elder. But I cannot say it is a happy experience.
1
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7 days ago
I hear you, Rob, and feel the sameit's been incredibly disheartening to
watch this play outespecially the (non-) responses from some of the
same people who helped sort of save my faith and re-center it on
advocacy for the victims & the voiceless. To see them joining in the same
silencing and shaming that in other cases (less close to home, less tied in
with money & status I guess...) they have strongly spoken out against,
it's...honestly it's just devastating.
3
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7 days ago
I am deeply saddened by your experience, and I thank you for expressing

your feelings with candor and thoughtfulness.
I've written something above, which expresses some of my frustration,
too.
Blessings, brother.
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Adrenalin Tim > Adrenalin Tim
7 days ago
Brad Sargent has also been doing systematic and thorough work
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documenting the sources and piecing together a timeline; there's a great

resource here.
3
Tim Wilson-Brown
Reply Share
7 days ago
"Jones unlocks the chains of fear and shame that bind so much of Christianity and oers us
instead, freedom."
I have heard from several reliable sources that Tony Jones is pretty good at applying chains of
fear and shame to those who publicly or privately disagree with him. His treatment of Julie
McMahon is a prime example of this, as is the ensuing treatment of Julie by many notorious
Emergent figures. And their silence about Tony Jones' behaviour.
16
Garp
Edit Reply Share
7 days ago
Is this book as "amazing" as his book about how it is okay to leave your wife for a "spiritual
wife"?
14
Danica
Reply Share
7 days ago
Nadia, if you support a known abuser and an admitted narcissist, someone who has used and
continues to use his power in the Emergent church to silence his victim / ex wife, then we have
a major problem. I have been seriously considering contacting your bishop for a while now,
over this issue, and I think this endorsement just prompted me to do it.
17
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Danica > Danica
7 days ago
Not to mention the fact that he justified his adultery by inventing the heresy of
'sacramental marriage', which he even had the hubris to publish an ebook about.
Why did you hang up the phone on Julie when she called and asked for help, Nadia?
This are not the actions of a pastor.
14
Beth Anderson
Reply Share
7 days ago
Thanks for linking to that endorsement page so I know exactly who is supporting Tony Jones
by endorsing his book. It could be the best book in the world and I still wouldn't read it
because I can't take him seriously anymore after hearing about what he did/is doing to his exwife. I guess I'm learning to let go of my idols, since so many of them are endorsing him.
Can you imagine how you'd feel if Phyllis Tickle, Shane Claiborne and Lauren Winner were
endorsing Mark Driscoll's latest book? That's how I feel right now :-(
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KT Pridgen > Beth Anderson
7 days ago
Ugh, Shane Claiborne too? I just assumed he was o living quietly in his commune/community
trying to do good. Does anyone care that Tony is an abusive narcissist?!
5
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christop1 > KT Pridgen
7 days ago
Has anyone contacted Claiborne about it?

2
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KT Pridgen > christop1
7 days ago
Not that I know of. He hasn't really been in the picture on this debacle.
It's not a bad idea. Who knows when these endorsements were written.
Then again, you'd think he'd have heard of this controversy by now at
least. And silence in and of itself is a response...
5
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christop1 > KT Pridgen
4 days ago
My impression is that he isn't much of an Internet user. On Simple Way's

website it says the best way to get in touch is by mail, and that it takes up
to six months for him to get through his mail.
1
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Danica > KT Pridgen
7 days ago
David Hayward cares. Stephanie Drury cares. RL Stollar cares.

12
KT Pridgen
Reply Share
8 days ago
I wonder when you will endorse victims of abuse who have been marginalized by religious
leaders of the time instead of endorsing those religious leaders.
16
Garp
Reply Share
8 days ago
It is interesting the way you say that he has detractors like you do. You have detractors
because you are a woman that dares to talk about God. He has detractors because he has
been accused of abuse. Very dierent in my opinion.
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Dan Skogen > Garp
7 days ago
Nadia Bolz-Weber has detractors because of her teaching and quotes such as these . . . Preaching hopef...ully in some way is the word of God, speaking is not. So I
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thought, I wonder, we can look at Paul that way. You know like sometimes he was just
going o on his snotty opinions, he has some authority to speak on it but thats not
necessarily the Word of God.
- I had never stopped believing in God, not really. But I did have to go hang out with
His aunt for awhile. She is called the goddess. My first experience with Wicca . . . from
her book Pastrix
- The goddess we spoke of never felt to me like a substitute for God but simply
another aspect of the divine, like God's aunt or something. When I tell other Christians
of my time with the goddess I think they expect me to characterize it as a period in my
life when I was misguided and that now thankfully I have come back to both Jesus and
my senses. But it's not like that. I can't imagine that the God of the universe is limited to
our ideas of God. I can't image that God doesn't reveal Godself in countless ways
outside of the simple system of Christianity. And in a way I need a god who is bigger
and more nimble and more mysterious than what I could understand or contrive. from
her book Pastrix
- Jesus gathered with some real f**k-ups, held up bread and said take and eat . . . Bolz-Weber's book Pastrix, in the section Fall 2005 - "And just to be clear: The cross is not about God as divine child abuser sadly sending
his little boy o to be killed because we were bad and well, somebody had to pay." from
sermon heard by Rev. Tom Brock
- oh my god, nobody believes every line of the creed.
- . . . I think that there is a really insipid message to girls when you use the exclusive
male pronoun for God . . . So whenever you sort of attribute a human characteristic to
God, that some people have and some people don't, it becomes problematic.
- Talking about her children Rev. Bolz-Weber says, We are not the kind of family that
does a lot of like family devotionals. We don't pray together as a family. We don't do this
faith stu in our home. You know why? My kids are around it all the time. And so I just
feel they need a break at home, you know. So I know it's a big deal to like build faith in
home; we don't do that."
3
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Guest > Garp
7 days ago
Nadia has detractors also because of quotes and teaching from her such as these The church pastor preaches heresy and then some. Here are some quotes of Rev. Nadia
Bolz-Weber . . . Preaching hopefully in some way is the word of God, speaking is not. So I thought,
I wonder, we can look at Paul that way. You know like sometimes he was just going o
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on his snotty opinions, he has some authority to speak on it but thats not necessarily
the Word of God.
- I had never stopped believing in God, not really. But I did have to go hang out with
His aunt for awhile. She is called the goddess. My first experience with Wicca . . . from
her book Pastrix
- The goddess we spoke of never felt to me like a substitute for God but simply
another aspect of the divine, like God's aunt or something. When I tell other Christians
of my time with the goddess I think they expect me to characterize it as a period in my
life when I was misguided and that now thankfully I have come back to both Jesus and
my senses. But it's not like that. I can't imagine that the God of the universe is limited to
our ideas of God. I can't image that God doesn't reveal Godself in countless ways
outside of the simple system of Christianity. And in a way I need a god who is bigger
and more nimble and more mysterious than what I could understand or contrive. from
her book Pastrix
- Jesus gathered with some real f**k-ups, held up bread and said take and eat . . . Bolz-Weber's book Pastrix, in the section Fall 2005 - "And just to be clear: The cross is not about God as divine child abuser sadly sending
his little boy o to be killed because we were bad and well, somebody had to pay." from
sermon heard by Rev. Tom Brock
- oh my god, nobody believes every line of the creed.
- . . . I think that there is a really insipid message to girls when you use the exclusive
male pronoun for God . . . So whenever you sort of attribute a human characteristic to
God, that some people have and some people don't, it becomes problematic.
- Talking about her children Rev. Bolz-Weber says, We are not the kind of family that
does a lot of like family devotionals. We don't pray together as a family. We don't do this
faith stu in our home. You know why? My kids are around it all the time. And so I just
feel they need a break at home, you know. So I know it's a big deal to like build faith in
home; we don't do that."
1
Reply Share
GrumpySmurf > Garp
7 days ago
You also have detractors because you defended TJ. And refused to retract it even after
the evidence was presented that painted him in a very poor light indeed.
You need to come to grips with this very simple fact. And stop acting like it doesn't
matter, cause it does.
12
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Page 195 of 196
Disqus Comments
10/04/2015 19:49
KT Pridgen > GrumpySmurf
7 days ago
It doesn't matter if Tony is abusive. He has good theology!

Where have I heard that before?
(The answer is from Mark Driscoll's supporters, if anyone was wondering.)
4
Reply Share
Adrenalin Tim > Garp
8 days ago
Galileo had "detractors".

So did Jim Jones.
Does NBW think that they are equal?
12
Rob Brown
Reply Share
8 days ago
The idea of God killing Jesus has been around for a long time. And it is pretty silly.
And who is Julie?
1
Reply Share
Becky Rouzer Northcutt > Rob Brown
8 days ago
Julie Is Tony Jones' ex-wife, the mother of his children, whose shoulder he injured, who
he betrayed by having an aair, and who he and his friends falsely accused of being
mentally ill when he is the one with the diagnosis of narcissism. She is the one he is
trying to ruin financially and who he is driving to despair.
15
Reply Share
Rob Brown > Becky Rouzer Northcutt
7 days ago
Ew, that is not friendly! Or even what i understand as being Christian (though it
does remind me of our capacity for evil!).
Blessings to Julie in the midst of her struggles!
3
Becky Rouzer Northcutt
Reply Share
8 days ago
When you speak up for Julie like you do for Tony, then I will listen to you. Right now, I don't
understand your motives or values at all.
22
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Full Comments On Tony Jones On Sarcastic Luther 889 PDF

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He tees it up by saying, "I might accidentally delete" WHAT FRAUDS!!!

From an anonymous source.....

conference. Within about an hour of meeting him he made comments to me

I will, therefore, be disabling comments for this post.

hikerrev > hikerrev

KT Pridgen > hikerrev

Thank you for posting the link, Matthew!

Living Liminal > hikerrev

Caryn LeMur > hikerrev

KT Pridgen > hikerrev

ONE REBUTTAL TO SUMMARY REQUESTED BY SOME HAVING TROUBLE

Caryn LeMur > Caryn LeMur

Caryn LeMur > Caryn LeMur

Gretchen > Gretchen

Gretchen > Gretchen

more laughing at ToJo in the immediate future.

CurtisMSP > KT Pridgen

Jmac6301 > KT Pridgen

Caryn LeMur > Jmac6301

Nadia and Tony:

8th grade, in 1970. It was an amazing moment.

Guest > Caryn LeMur

Caryn LeMur > Guest

CurtisMSP > Caryn LeMur

KT Pridgen > Caryn LeMur

Unfortunately, she had months to respond to the allegations against Tony

Caryn LeMur > KT Pridgen

to call a spade a spade.

CurtisMSP > Caryn LeMur

Well, in Nadia's line of business, contracts come before God. Ironically

Guest > itsallasham

I am not a psychologist but I am in graduate school getting my Masters in Clinical

Alan Molineaux > itsallasham

CurtisMSP > itsallasham

Guest > itsallasham

nakedpastor > itsallasham

No_6 > nakedpastor

wordvixen > KT Pridgen

Danica > KT Pridgen

KT Pridgen > Danica

CurtisMSP > KT Pridgen

Guest > CurtisMSP

Alan Molineaux > Guest

Guest > Alan Molineaux

KT Pridgen > Guest

Guest > KT Pridgen

KT Pridgen > Guest

Guest > KT Pridgen

I met ToJo last year at a conference. Within about an hour of meeting

I wonder why Kandace failed to mention a word about:

CurtisMSP > Kandace

Guest > CurtisMSP

Kandace > Kandace

SUMMARY REQUESTED BY SOME HAVING TROUBLE WITH DISQUS: Some local

Ragnarok > Kandace

Annie Banannie > Kandace

Annie Banannie > Kandace

KT Pridgen > Kandace

Guest > Kandace

No one requested your summary.

Kandace > Kandace