Rethinking Marxism

A Journal of Economics, Culture & Society

ISSN: 0893-5696 (Print) 1475-8059 (Online) Journal homepage: http://www.tandfonline.com/loi/rrmx20

Crossing Materialism and Religion: An Interview on

Marxism and Spirituality with the Fourteenth Dalai
Lama
Anup Dhar, Anjan Chakrabarti & Serap Kayatekin
To cite this article: Anup Dhar, Anjan Chakrabarti & Serap Kayatekin (2016) Crossing
Materialism and Religion: An Interview on Marxism and Spirituality with the Fourteenth Dalai
Lama, Rethinking Marxism, 28:3-4, 584-598, DOI: 10.1080/08935696.2016.1243426
To link to this article: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/08935696.2016.1243426

Published online: 22 Dec 2016.

Submit your article to this journal

Article views: 1575

View related articles

View Crossmark data

Full Terms & Conditions of access and use can be found at

http://www.tandfonline.com/action/journalInformation?journalCode=rrmx20
Download by: [101.78.234.48]

Date: 10 January 2017, At: 20:15

RETHINKING MARXISM, 2016

Vol. 28, Nos. 34, 584598, http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/08935696.2016.1243426

Crossing Materialism and Religion: An

Interview on Marxism and Spirituality
with the Fourteenth Dalai Lama
Anup Dhar, Anjan Chakrabarti, and
Serap Kayatekin
This conversation with the fourteenth Dalai Lamathe spiritual-political inspiration of the
displaced Tibetan communityrevolves around questions of why a practitioner of the
Buddha Dharma would like to call himself Marxist, and also his views on the violence of
both Marxist praxis and religion. The Dalai Lama splits Marxism into, on the one hand,
violent paranoid statecraft, and, on the other, the moral principle of equal distribution. He
aligns with the latter. He also displaces other-worldly religion to this-worldly moksha; he
calls it spirituality. The conversation brings to dialogue the possible political consequences of
a this-worldly spirituality and the possible spiritual consequences of a reexive Marxism
keenly attuned to experiences of human suffering.
Key Words: Buddhism, Marxism, Religion, Spirituality, Violence

The editors of this special issue of Rethinking Marxism on Marxism and Spirituality
shared a few questions with the fourteenth Dalai Lama before the interview on
Wednesday, 26 August 2015 at the residence of the Dalai Lama in McLeod Ganj,1
India. Here is the questionnaire the editors shared with the Dalai Lama:
1. Religion is at the same time the expression of real distress and also the protest
against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a
heartless world, just as it is the spirit of spiritless conditionsWe, from the
journal, Rethinking Marxism, would like to seek your response on this proposition
on religion by Marx; all the more because you have brought to a dialog Tibetan
Buddhism and the Tibetan peoples need for real freedom from real distress.
2. You have often marked a distinction between religion and spiritualityWe
would like to be enlightened on this by you; why do we need to turn away from
1. McLeod Ganj is a suburb of Dharamsala in Kangra district of Himachal Pradesh, India. It is known as
Little Lhasa or Dhasa (a short form of Dharamshala used mainly by Tibetans) because of its large
population of Tibetans. In March 1959, Tenzin Gyatso, the fourteenth Dalai Lama, ed to India. The
Indian government offered him refuge in Dharamshala, where he set up the Tibetan Government in
Exile in 1960, while McLeod Ganj became his ofcial residence and also home to several Buddhist monasteries and thousands of Tibetan refugees. See https://www.mcleodganj.com/about for details.
2016 Association for Economic and Social Analysis

Marxism and Spirituality

3.

4.

5.
6.

7.

8.

585

religion and turn to spirituality to attend to the human condition? We would like
to request you to help us see the connection of spirituality with ethics and ethical
living.
The separation of real material experiences (say, poverty) and material needs (say,
the need to be free from malnutrition) and spiritual experiences (say, experiences of
communion with nature) and spiritual needs (say, the need for peaceful interdependence) has haunted humanity for some time. Can Marxisms focus on materiality
and Tibetan Buddhisms focus on spiritual needs be brought to a dialog?
You said in 1993: The economic system of Marxism is founded on moral principles,
while capitalism is concerned only with gain and protability. Marxism is concerned with the distribution of wealth on an equal basis as well as the fate of
those who are underprivileged and in need, and [it] cares about the victims of minority-imposed exploitation. For those reasons, the system appeals to me, and it
seems fair. You have suggested elsewhere also that you are a Marxist so far as
Marxisms focus on socioeconomic conditions is concerned. You have particularly
emphasized the focus in Marxism on inequality and the ethical need to move
toward an equal and just world. Would you like to elaborate on this position of
yours? Are you also suggesting that our present world order based on inequality
and exploitation faces a spiritual crisis which Marxism (as also Tibetan Buddhism,
albeit in their respective ways) holds the promise to attend to?
By bringing to dialog Marxism and Buddhism are you in the process reinventing
Marxism as a compassionate politics and Buddhism as a social religion?
Do you think that there is a spirituality decit in Marxism? Without such spirituality
does Marxism become dystopic and violent? One problem common to both Marxism
and religion has been its associated violence. Why do you think that is the case? Is it
because of the spiritual decit? Why does Marxism turn violent from time to time?
Why is statist Marxisms history red in tooth and claw? What makes Marxism at
one and the same time pro-people (speaking in other words against exploitation
and inequality) and anti-people (being violent to its own people)? Would a turn to
spirituality temper the violence and the aggressive modernism and Eurocentrism
of much of Marxism? Why is the history of religion also the history of violence?
Would you like to respond to Sri Lankan and Burmese Buddhisms history of violence? What does it mean for you then to be at the cusp of spirituality and Marxism?
Is there, also, in Marxisms turn to the commune and to communitarianism, as
against individualism, a turn to the rather deeper tenets of the spiritual beinga
being that foregrounds interconnectedness and interdependence of all species?
Even in its apparent scientism, is there then in Marxism a secret spirituality, all
the more because many religious or faith-based orders share with Marxism
similar principles?
What happens when China and Tibet come face to faceone armed with statebacked combative Marxism and the other disarmed with spirituality, nonviolence,
and faith-based practices?

The Dalai Lama however did not respond to each question individually but offered a
consolidated response to the questionnaire. Here is the transcript of his consolidated

586

Dhar, Chakrabarti, and Kayatekin

response, along with a few insertions by Anup Dhar, who represented the editors of
this issue in this conversation.
ANUP DHAR : Your Holiness, I am Anup, and I teach philosophy, politics, and psychoanalysis in a university in India called Ambedkar University Delhi (AUD). I am part of
an activist-academic collective that publishes a journal, Rethinking Marxism, and participates in anticapitalist struggle and in postcapitalist praxis. Three of usAnjan Chakrabarti, Serap Kayatekin, and I (and all of us are from the broader rethinking Marxism
collective)are editing a special issue of Rethinking Marxism on Marxism and
Spirituality.
THE FOURTEENTH DALAI LAMA : So far as social and economic theories are concerned, I
am a Marxist. I have publicly said, I am a Marxist.
DHAR : Yes, we have read about that.
DALAI LAMA : But if you ask me on Marx or on Marxism in detailperhaps about its
detailed structuremy knowledge, I must say, is zero [laughs]; perhaps I can
respond to some specic questions, if you have, on Marxism?
DHAR : Yes, I have a few; in addition to the questions we have posed to you already in
writing. Perhaps you can begin by sharing your reections on why you would say, I am
a Marxist. Would you like to elaborate a little on this statement of yours?
DALAI LAMA : First, I am a Buddhist; a practitioner of Buddha Dharma. Every day, you see,
we pray for all sentient beings; we pray for all sentient beings on this planet so that all
sentient beings are free from suffering; we hope all sentient beings have happiness; we
pray for all sentient beings to be free from attachments, attachments causing bias. If
you are serious about this, if one seriously practices these things, then one will have
to think of the well-being of the billion human beings on this planet. Other beings, limitless number of other beings, like birds, sh, even earthworms, we have to think of
their well-being as well. But you see we do not have a common language; we cannot
communicate with them, so we can only pray. Now as human beings, we have languages of communication. We have a somewhat special apparatus: the human brain. This
combination of language and brainand I do not know for certain which should come
rst, which caused whatbut the combination is supposed to, or at least, should be, the
source of happiness. But instead, this is causing more trouble, more violence. Now,
when we think of the well-being of a billion beings not only in their next life but in
this life this very life should be a happy one, not the next one, then we have to
take recourse to the Four Noble Truths. [The Four Noble Truths are: the noble truth
of suffering2 [dukkha, in Pali], the noble truth of the origin3 of suffering, the noble
2. Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering.
3. It is this craving that leads to renewed existence, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight
here and there: that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for existence, craving for extermination.

Marxism and Spirituality

587

truth of the cessation4 of suffering and the origin of suffering, and the noble truth of the
path that leads to the cessation of suffering and the origin of suffering.] One also has to
think beyond the impermanent axis of happiness, i.e., happiness in worldly life. Impermanent happiness comes from money. The locus of impermanent happiness is in the
economy, which is, however, necessary for happiness. Happiness in the long run,
however, comes from nirvana [Nothing can give real happiness as can nirvana, so
said the Buddha]. The route to nirvana is in dharma, is in the Four Noble Truths
and The Eightfold Path.5 But then even as a Buddhist practitioner you have to think
about the economy, about the economic well-being of humanity. So, uh now, and of
course I am not an economist, I do not know economics, but my general impression
is that the Marxian understanding of the economy is premised on and lays emphasis
on equal distributionequal distribution as a moral principle.
DHAR : Youve made a similar suggestion earlier also.
DALAI LAMA : Yes! Capitalists think about prot, about only money. About gain. There is
not much talk about equal distribution in capitalism. I always make this distinction
between original Marxist ideology and capitalism. I think, original Marxist ideology is
very much related to/with a sense of altruism, a sense of concern for the well-being of
the majority. At that time, in Marxs time, Marx sees employees, farmers, workers
being simply used by landlords, feudal lords, and capitalists. He sees the owner of the
factory exploiting his workers. I think Marx saw a lot of hardship. So he is seriously concerned with how to tackle the extreme forms of exploitation. And he saw how exploitation
perpetuates a lot of suffering for working-class people. Marx takes up the cause of that
proletariat, or the workers who are a majority, even native/colonized people. So you
see, Marx was right in expressing his concerns over their rights; workers rights, their
well-being. So I invest much in Marxist ideology. I invest in order to generate courage
in poor peasants and workers. In India, sometimes, Dalit subjects are using this religious
word, karma karma as destiny; low caste is as if due to karma, so nothing can be done
about it; one has to accept and persevere. So you see, it is possible at that time, their religious leader or community leader could be invoking karma to support ruling-class ideology. Karl Marx, on the other hand, develops some sort of conception of self-creation of
change. Working-class people, their hands, their work, their labor, their consciousness is
the key factor to change society. So this I feel is very much related with a core moral principle. At the same time, I always make it clear that I am totally against Leninism.
DHAR : Some of us over the years have become critical of what has come to be known as
Leninism.
DALAI LAMA : So then you see unfortunately this concept of the proletariat eventually
becomes smeared with power. The Bolshevik revolution it led to a civil war in
4. It is the remainder-less fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, nonreliance on it.
5. The Eightfold Path: that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right
effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

588

Dhar, Chakrabarti, and Kayatekin

Russia; so then, during the civil war there was also a certain practice of suspicion, distrust, and ruthless control, and secrecy. These are perhaps relevant during wartime. But
unfortunately such a wartime practice and habit become part of the so-called Marxist
regime in Russia, as also later Communist systems. So now in all Communist countries,
they dont think much, you see, about equal distribution or exploitation. Their main
concern is power.
DHAR : Not critiques of power but power.
DALAI LAMA : Yes so you see the thirst for power actually destroys their original
concept and practice. So thats my view. So then I think, in a manner that is too
bold perhaps, I feel I am more Marxist than those Marxist parties [laughs]. Their
main concern is power and money. They dont care about equal distribution, about exploitation. I do. I do still. So then the very reason that Marxism was born and developed
in the nineteenth century, the sensibility and concern for the well-being of the majority,
of the needy, of the poor, of the suffering people, is lost. There is an element of altruism,
a sense of concern for the other in Marxism. This Marxist ideology was developed not
just for some kind of new thesis, not because Marx would need to become a doctorate
or something. But I think really, you see, it expresses serious social concern, and the
way Marx expresses such concern is with a certain philosophy, a certain philosophical
system. So from that aspect, there is some spirituality, some kind of spirituality in
Marxism.
DHAR : There is?
DALAI LAMA : Yes. Spirituality can be thought at two levels. One, spirituality with
respect to certain mysterious things of life, and beliefs, and faith. So it really
helps to keep the question of compassion in mind; one remains God fearing, and
thats good! Useful. As a person I want to harm something, someone, but then
see, Oh God, that thing, that person was also created by God; then I cannot
harm. Good! So thats one kind of spirituality, at a certain level, a certain category
of spirituality premised on certain beliefs. Then there could be another level of spirituality, without talking at all about these mysterious things: spirituality as practical,
spirituality as everyday practice, a sense of concern over the others well-being.
Marxism is spiritual at that level. I am remembering Karl Marxs statement on religion in your questionnaire, where he says religion is the heart of
heartless people, the spirit of a spiritless condition, and it is the sigh of the oppressed
DHAR : At one level, Marx sees religion as the scream of the oppressed. Of the exploited.
Dalai Lama: Yes.
DHAR : You have also imparted to religion, to Tibetan Buddhism, a voice we thought,
that speaks for the oppressed Tibetan people. And we saw between Marxs understanding of religion and your understanding of Tibetan Buddhism a connection.

Marxism and Spirituality

589

DALAI LAMA : [Laughs] I dont know. I have found Buddhist monks as also some Buddhist thinkers who, as far as their socioeconomic philosophy are concerned, are sound
Marxist. Then there is Rahul Sankrityayan [18931963],6 who became a Buddhist monk
[Bauddha Bhikkhu] and eventually took up Marxism. So you see people whore really
thinking and who have serious concern about the well-being of others and who do
not put much emphasis on the Creator, and on karma kind of theories, develop
some kind of closer connection to Marxist revolutionary thinking.
DHAR : Marx also suggests religion is the opium of the masses
DALAI LAMA : That is understandable. You see, when people follow religion seriously,
sincerely, then all major traditions, in spite of different philosophical views, including
the concept of Creator, or even in the absence of Creator, carry the same or similar messages, which is the message of love, compassion, forgiveness, tolerance, contentment,
and self-discipline. All religions, you see, anyone in any religious group is expected
to seriously practice these things. Then there is not much basis of terming religion
opium but then, these same people sometimes, unfortunately, use religious
gospels, phrases, to exploit, to oppress. If someone were to think of some new ideas,
in order to suppress the new one, would say, Oh, thats against Gods Word, or something like that. As I mentioned earlier, you see, religion is used to support caste oppression. The courage, the effort to change things, to overturn caste hierarchy is killed by
saying, This is your destiny, because of your karma. This kind of thinking restricts
human revolution/evolution and creativity. Sometimes religious thinking, nowadays,
also the Buddhists, I think talk much about next life and not pay much attention to
this life. Religion is in that case indeed opium. Opium because of two reasons. First,
I think in the Buddhist case, and this is very harmful for the general population,
there are too many monks, too much ritual. Peoples economic development is obviously neglected. So people sometimes say, Oh, okay, its just for this life. The next life
becomes more important.
As a Buddhist I will foreground The Four Noble Truths. But that doesnt mean we do
not have to develop the economy, or think of livelihoods. Money not for individual
pockets; money for the well being of the society. Thats socialist thinking. At the
same time, now, in todays world, in the capitalist countries, and in the economic
eld there are no moral principles. However, on the other side, in those capitalist countries, there is also some rule of law, some idea of equality, democracy, freedom of

6. Kedarnath Pandey, who later changed his name to Rahul Sankrityayanafter Gautam Buddhas son,
Rahul, and Sankrityayan, meaning assimilatordid perfect justice in giving himself this new name,
for he went on to become a renowned Buddhist scholar. Sankrityayan is called the Father of Hindi
Travelogue because he played a pivotal role in giving travelogue a literary form. Even though he
had a limited formal education, Sankrityayan wrote around 150 books on sociology, history, philosophy,
Buddhism, science, drama, folklore, politics, Tibetology, lexicography, biography, autobiography,
essays, and pamphlets in as many as ve languages: Hindi, Sanskrit, Bhojpuri, Pali, and Tibetan. In
19378 and in 19478 he was appointed professor of Indology at the University of Leningrad. Sankrityayan was also an Indian nationalist, having been arrested and jailed for three years for anti-British
writings and speeches. He was both a polymath and a polyglot. Read more at http://www.iloveindia.
com/indian-heroes/rahul-sankrityayan.html.

590

Dhar, Chakrabarti, and Kayatekin

speech, a robust press, etcetera. So there is also some kind of balance in those spaces;
whereas in totalitarian systems, or countries, none of the latter things, like say, the free
press, exists. If these communist countries carry forward the original Marxist concept,
concept of equal distribution, seriously, then its okay; but unfortunately thats not
there. So then I think the people in these countries suffer more than those in capitalist
countries. Thats my view.
DHAR : Coming back to the question of Marxism and spirituality
DALAI LAMA : Yes. So in spirituality there are, according to me, two levels. One is
spirituality with a certain belief, premised on a certain belief; and another kind of
spirituality, which is simply warmheartedness and a sense of concern for the others
well-being. The second kind of spirituality I usually call secular spirituality.
DHAR : Yes!
DALAI LAMA : India, over the last three thousand years, has developed this tradition. Not
only different religious traditions but also nonbelievers have coexisted in India. Thats
very relevant in todays world. Thats very wise of a civilization.
DHAR : A kind of secular ethics?
DALAI LAMA : Yes. Secular ethics! So according to the Indian understanding, secular
means respect. Respect for the other. Respect for all religions.
DHAR : Even the nonbeliever?
DALAI LAMA : Even the nonbeliever. Thats a wonderful imagination, a beautiful path
[laughs]. So thats your tradition hmm? In ancient times, one found philosophy, religion, the best of religion, the best of philosophy, in Nalanda. So the Tibetan emperor
invited masters and teachers from Nalanda to Tibet. Although at that time, already,
Buddhism had been forged in China. But the Tibetan emperor preferred, as far as Buddhism is concerned, to bring its teachings directly from India, from Nalanda. So
modern Tibetans, including myself, are now taking Indias tradition seriously. Our philosophy is to serve the seven billion beings on this planet, and there are over one billion
nonbelievers, and we cannot ignore these one billion people. They also have a right to
achieve a happy life. So if we try to promote moral principles on only the basis of
religion, then nonbelievers will be left out, or nonbelievers will not show any interest
in our work and thinking, so we cant dialog with the nonbelievers. I wish to develop a
moral philosophy that appeals to all, even nonbelievers. Secular spirituality could be
the ground for that.
DHAR : What is the psychological ground for such spirituality?
DALAI LAMA : We all come from our mothers. We all receive so much affection from our
mothers. So the infant learns or begins to appreciate the experience of motherly

Marxism and Spirituality

591

affection from very early on. They dont like the sad or angry faces of their mothers.
There is no religion or religious connection in all this. It is perhaps what is human in
us. The seven billion human beings, all of them, receive the mothers affection. They
survive because of their mothers care and affection. If parents were to abandon the
infants, they would die. And then, even if we look at human beings who come from
rich and inuential families, but families without much inner value, that experience
of family will not be a happy one. A poor person living in poor conditions but with
parents full of affection will be happier. Some affection at the infant level is so important irrespective of whether one belongs to this religion or that religion. I am talking
about this very life, not the next life, not the next to next life. In order to create
happy human souls, in this life, we need the basic experience of humanity, at least at
the infant level, in childhood.
On the other hand, every day today, every morning, when I watch the BBC, I see
people are killing people, I see terrorists, I see the brutality of the police, I see refugees,
migrants, and then I see poor people. Some are facing starvation; lots of people, really
facing starvation. There is violence and war. And then in India, poor people, a lot of
poor people live in the countryside. In big cities, some people live very luxurious
lives. The same human beings say they believe in God. But if we all are created by
God, God also gives to all of us the equal right to live. We cannot discriminate
amongst ourselves as Gods creation. We cannot say that someone has no right, and
that someone has innite right to exploit, oppress, amass money, and some others
should remain poor. How can you say that?
I want richer people to pay more attention to poorer people and their difculties. On
one occasion in Delhi, I notice some kind of decoration in an open place. I ask, Whats
going on there? Is it a religious festival? I get to know: No, marriage. Rich people
spend lakhs for marriage. Instead of spending lakhs for building impermanent structures, one can buy bread, cheese, fruits, and assist the children on the streets, the homeless; one can distribute. Thats the way to a happy marriage. The show of wealth by the
rich makes the poorer feel envious, jealous. Shouldnt the poorer sections of society
embark on some movement, albeit in a nonviolent path, against this show of wealth
and this inequality? With support from Marxist theory? [Laughs.]
DHAR : You have tried to mark a difference between religion and spirituality. Would you
like to say a little more on that?
DALAI LAMA : We use the word religion in association with a certain faith, for certain
beliefs. So it involves some kind of mysterious element. But then spirituality, like
secular spirituality, is not involved with faith or belief, though spirituality could also
be religious; religious spirituality is also one kind of spirituality. But spirituality, you
see, could also be without a certain faith, or belief, or mysterious element. Some
people would like to call it humanism. I think Jainism, and Buddhism, is more akin
to humanism. Both religions utilize or cultivate good human qualities, and utilize or
cultivate in order to achieve happiness: happiness in this life and happiness in the
next life, for all beings. There is not much reliance on Buddha or God. Buddha
clearly mentions, You are your own master. Buddha also stated, Oh my follower,
you should not accept my teachings out of faith but rather thorough investigation

592

Dhar, Chakrabarti, and Kayatekin

and experiment. So Buddha never said being the head of the religious group or having
power will give you happiness.
DHAR : Marxism and the practice of the Marxist state has been a history of violence.
Dalai Lama: Yes!
DHAR : Do you think there was a spiritual decit in the way Marxism was practiced?
DALAI LAMA : Oh denitely! Hardly any moral principles in the practice of Marxism.
Only the pursuit of power. Marxists in the Soviet ordered to kill all the members of
the Tsars family including children. Why would we do that? I think, it stemmed
from fear, suspicion, hatred, and the total lack of respect for the others life.
DHAR : Yes.
DALAI LAMA : Stalin killed millions of people, his own people. There was immense suffering. I feel Mao Tse-tung was a sincere Marxist; he was a true Marxist revolutionary.
But then during the civil war, again, theres the practice of suspicion, ruthlessness,
secrecy; that took shape and form during the wartime. But then after a certain
periodafter 1951, or 1952 54when I went to China, even at that time, I could see
the suspicion, the distrust. But I think, it was still quite okay, still within limits. Then
gradually, from 1956 57, we see the birth of too much totalitarian control. Control
of media. The result: over a billion people end up being ignorant, ignorant of developments elsewhere, and ignorant of other ideas. They do not know where the world is
going, what is new.
I think, in the early 1980s, an opportunity to know the truth came to the Tibetans. On
one occasion in the 1980s, I met a Tibetan, his brother, his relatives, here in Dharamsala. During the Cultural Revolution he was working in one of the Chinese departments, as a staff member. He told me, only after he reached India, he developed an
understanding of what really happened during the Cultural Revolution. When he
was in his own department, there was no information. So I often tell my Chinese
friends: nearly one billion Chinese people, actually 1.3 billion Chinese people, have
every right to know reality, know truth. Once Chinese people know reality, know the
truth, they also have the ability to judge what is right, what is wrong.
Censorship is immoral. This censorship affects people only within the country, not
the outside world. One is then fooling ones own people. Censorship has become part of
the communist countrys internal system. Its sad. On one occasion in Calcutta, I met
Jyoti Basu, head of another communist state in India, head of a communist state government. At that time I had hoped that they would create a free Marxist regime. I asked
one Indian Marxist, what is the attitude of the Indian communist towards religion? He
said, It is the responsibility of communists to serve people. People in India are religious. Indian communists must respect peoples religion. I thought this was quite
an important realization. With Jyoti Basu I had some sort of closeness. I met him on
a few occasions. But then my friend told me about his private life; very much bourgeois.
Jai Prakash Narayan had a very simple life, very simple.

Marxism and Spirituality

593

DHAR : Yes, very simple life.

DALAI LAMA : Jai Prakash Narayan was also a socialist.
DHAR : Yes.
DALAI LAMA : I think Indian MarxismMarxism in a democratic country, free country
could be something different from, say, Marxism in China.
DHAR : One other question. The history of religion has also seen violence, and I have in
mind Sri Lankan Buddhism, Buddhism in Burma, etcetera. How would you respond to
this, the violence that we see in religion? The violence we see in Marxism we have discussed and critiqued. The violence in religion also cannot be condoned.
DALAI LAMA : As I mentioned earlier, whatever, whichever religion we follow we are not
implementing the teachings and the tenets seriously. Religion has become lip service.
Also, sometimes I think we should make a distinction between religious organizations
and religion. Religious organizations, and such organizations have developed since
ancient times, were all immersed in a social system that was more or less a feudal
system.
DHAR : Or even slave systems.
DALAI LAMA : Yes. So these religious institutions that developed within a feudal or a
slave system were also inuenced by the existing social systems. So the existing religious institutions are not very democratic.
DHAR : So there is something feudal in these institutions or organizations.
DALAI LAMA : Yes. Then the worst thing is, religious people, they do not seriously
practice, they just use the name of their religion or the name of the Son of God.
And once they use the name of religion, then they, whichever religious faith they
belong to, have an effect on our emotional selves. So then it becomes easy to manipulate the people who are under that particular name of the religion or Son of
God. So though actually all religions will say the same thinguniversal humanity,
all are brothers and sisters, all created by godat a more practical level, we shall
have distinctions between my/our religion, their religion, this religious difference,
that difference, helping in turn to create more and more divisions: including nationalisms, and different and contesting nationalities, differing religious faiths, different
races, different family lines and backgrounds. I think that at a more fundamental
level we are all human beings.
Whenever I come across some sort of problem because of different religions or
because of different nationalities, or different countries, at all these moments, I
think, we are after all the same human being. Even for a religious believer, we are
all same and created by the same and one God. Then all these problems become
less signicant. But too much emphasis on the difference of religions, nations,

594

Dhar, Chakrabarti, and Kayatekin

hardens our concept of we and they, us and them. What follows such hardening
is violence and discrimination, whereas all religions teach us universal humanity. Religious people should stress more on the fundamental sameness of human beings,
rather than difference, in order to help us see the sense of oneness in the human and
in humanity.
One of my Muslim friends, who is also a local Muslim leader, in a public meeting in
one remote place in Ladakh, near the Pakistan border, stressed: a genuine Muslim, a
genuine practitioner of Islam, must extend love and compassion towards the entire creation of Allah. I think there should be a distinction between, on the one hand, peoples
everyday practices and religion, and on the other, religious institution and religion. I
am quite critical about my own institution now. I am quite critical. This institution
that was born within feudalism is outdated now. There is no institution of Ngrjuna.7
But Ngrjunas teaching is still very much alive. So when people say, without the Dalai
Lama, Tibetan BuddhismI mean the institution of/for Tibetan Buddhismwill not
survive, I always say there is no institution of Ngrjuna, but his teaching is still
very much alive. Institutions come and go; institutions are born, they also die; the
teachings live on.
DHAR : Yes.
DALAI LAMA : So study and implement and practice. That is the way for the preservation
of Buddhas dharma or Ngrjunas philosophy.
DHAR : Religion can be seen as an individual pursuit, as my happiness
DALAI LAMA : Thats right!
DHAR : my moksha, my next life. Can we say that you have made religion social?
DALAI LAMA : Buddhism is practiceBuddha chitta; it is about altruism, innite altruism.
It is about thinking of the others well-being. ntideva
DHAR : ntideva Bodhishanti,8 yes
7. Ngrjuna (ca. A.D. 150250) is the most important Buddhist philosopher after the historical Buddha
himself. His philosophy of the middle way (madhyamaka), based around the central notion of emptiness (nyat), inuenced the Indian philosophical debate for a thousand years after his death; with
the spread of Buddhism to Tibet, China, Japan, and other Asian countries, the writings of Ngrjuna
became an indispensable point of reference for their own philosophical inquiries. A specic reading
of Ngrjunas thought, called Prsangika-Madhyamaka, became the ofcial philosophical position of
Tibetan Buddhism. See http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nagarjuna for a detailed exposition.
8. ntideva (literally god of peace) was an eighth-century (ca. A.D. 685763) Indian Buddhist monk
and scholar at Nalanda and is among the most renowned and esteemed gures in the entire history of
Mahayana Buddhism. He was an adherent of the Madhyamaka philosophy of Ngrjuna. ntideva is
the author of the Bodhisattvacaryvatra (glossed as A Guide to the Bodhisattvas Way of Life or Entering the Path of Enlightenment) and the ikssamuccaya. The Bodhisattvacaryvatra is the primary
source of most of the Tibetan Buddhist literature on the cultivation of altruism and the Spirit of Awakening. The term Mahyna, literally Great Vehicle, came to mean the idea of attempting to become a

Marxism and Spirituality

595

DALAI LAMA : Bodhishanti says that if you are able to exchange your happiness, joy, and
suffering for others, then one is reaching Buddhahoodeven in Samsara itself.
One will be happier if one is altruistic. Buddhism is the practice of innite altruism. I
think altruism is there in all religion; any religion which encourages the practice of love
is altruistic. However, I feel there is a lack of conviction about this inner/core value of
religion. Thats perhaps because our existing social system, sources of culture and environment, are very much materialistic. That in turn comes from materialistic education. Existing modern education is very much oriented about material value.
DHAR : Material well-being, and not ethical value?
DALAI LAMA : The modernist vision mainly comes from the West. When modern education began in the West, when the belief took shape that with the help of science and
technology more economic development could happen, education became mainly concerned with what is scientic and technological; religion or religious values were put
aside. In modern times, even the serious believer among the religious does not seriously believe in or practice religion. Religion has become something like fashion right now.
However, the only hope is education. Education should include some education of
moral principles. Moral principles not based on religious faith but based on
common sense, common experience, and scientic ndings. The scientists, some of
the top scientists, have suggested that constant anger, fear, is actually eating into our
immune system, and it is bad for our health. The compassionate mind ushers in
inner strength, self-condence, and that is helpful in reducing fear, I think. Some scientists have conducted experiments with infants, a few months after birth, who have
not yet developed language. They show some cartoons to the infants. In one cartoon
they show the young children playing together; they see the infant smiling. The
other cartoon has same young children hurting each other, harming each other; they
see the infant looking unhappy. I think the basic human nature is more about being
compassionate, and that is also logical! We are social animals. Any social animal can
survive only through care and compassion; also, to be social, to be together or to
bring together, at an emotional level, the common minimum factor is love. Hatred separates. So let us educate and nurture ourselves in love and compassion.
When the British introduced modern education in India, some opportunity was lost.
At that time, Indias scholars who knew much about ancient Indian thought, including
Indian work on the psychological, all the sciences of the mind, these should have been
included in the education system with some kind of synthesis with mainstream
Western education. The British introduced Western Christian education, while here
in India, thousand-year-old traditions and values were still alive; a combination of
the ancient and modern could have created a new curriculum.
bodhisattva (and eventually a buddha) oneself rather than merely following the teachings set out by Siddhrtha Gautama (considered the original Buddha). An introduction to and commentary on the Bodhisattvacaryvatra by the fourteenth Dalai Lama, called A Flash of Lightning in the Dark of Night, was
printed in 1994 (Shambhala). A commentary on the Patience chapter was provided by the Dalai
Lama in Healing Anger (Snow Lion, 1997), and his commentaries on the Wisdom chapter can be
found in Practicing Wisdom (2004, Wisdom Publications). See http://www.iep.utm.edu/santideva and
http://shantidevameditation.org/shantideva-story for details.

596

Dhar, Chakrabarti, and Kayatekin

DHAR : A new imagination, perhaps.

DALAI LAMA : Yes, something new. But still, it is not too late. I think, it is possible. In
India, in your thousand-year-old tradition, you have the experience or tradition of
ahimsa that respects all religion as well as the nonbeliever. Practically all major
Indian traditions, including Buddhism and Jainism, practice samadhi, vipasana, yoga.
So there is a lot of understanding and explanation, lot of knowledge about human emotions, about the human mind. There is deeper knowledge about how to deal with emotions, pain, and suffering; about mindfulness. These should be included in the eld of
education. Through that kind of education, I think there is a possibility to create a
new generation who understands the real value of compassion, and that is the way
to build a happier and a loving and compassionate society. I think India should lead
the way.
Tibetan thought comes from India, not from China. A fourteenth-century Tibetan
scholar and practitioner felt, till the light of knowledge from India reaches Tibet,
Tibetin spite of being the land of snow and white bright lightshall remain dark.
Its so true. Ancient India is our guru, not modern India. Modern India is too Westernized. Your ancient tradition is really valuable to us. But then your culture is alive now
only in ceremony and ritual, not in deeper reection on the human, what is human,
who we are.
I am meeting some scholars, some spiritual practitioners, soon, in Nasik on the occasion of the Kumbh Mela. I am really excited. Now this is one opportunity to
discuss seriously and revive interest and scholarship in ancient Indian knowledge,
but please dont see this as yet another ceremony [laughs]. Now I think the time has
come to revive ancient Indian knowledge. In the last few decades, religious harmony
is still better in India than in other spaces. We should maybe go deeper into why
India gave birth to the idea of ahimsa? How did India manage at least some form of religious harmony? What would be Marxist practice in such a culture of ahimsa and
harmony?
You consider yourself a Marxist?
DHAR : Not in the old way.9

9. It was a moment of table turning; and table turning or turning the table is Marxs (2016, 39) metaphor (in Capital, vol. 1: In the expression of value there is a complete turn of the tables). Conventional
standards of interviewing suggest that one person (the interviewer) asks/poses questions and the other
person (the interviewee) answers/responds to the questions. What happens when the interviewee begins
to ask questions? What happens when the other poses questionsquestions that have not been already
anticipated/assimilated by the self? Why would the other ask questions? When the other knows? When
the other already knows that I come from and represent the journal Rethinking Marxism? Why would the
other ask, Are you a Marxist? What is the other hinting at? Is the question, Are you still a Marxist
the stress on the still, with the exclamation mark: still!still a Marxist, after all that you have heard and
seen about our suffering? Was there a secret ethical charge in the question? I was somewhat paralyzed
by the question, paralyzed as I was already by the experience of visiting the Tibet museum in McLeod
Ganj, a visit that preceded the question, the shame the visit generated: What have we done? What have
we, as Marxists, done in Tibet? How could we have perpetuated such brutality? A certain numbness
comes to haunt one as one makes ones way through the Tibet museum. And here was the living

Marxism and Spirituality

597

DALAI LAMA : What do you feel about my sort of view?

DHAR : I agree with you somewhere, because without compassion Marxism becomes
very coarse, very rough. And that kind of masculinism dehumanizes us. As a perpetrator, that variant of Marxism has dehumanized itself. It is not the victim who gets dehumanized, it is the perpetrator who gets dehumanized.
DALAI LAMA : Thats very true!
DHAR : We dont want to get dehumanized, because thats a very lonely and violent self.
And I have always felt that the oppressed remains human even if there is suffering. Its
the oppressor who gets dehumanized. The oppressor is the one losing human compassion, losing touch with love. And if Marxism puts on the cloak of an oppressor, it
becomes coarse in the process. The Marxian and the spiritual also get estranged in
the process.
DALAI LAMA : Yes! They themselves feel fear, loneliness, distrust
DHAR : Such a Marxism is always secretive; there is concealment, suspicion. But you
yourself have no one to suspect because youre free, out in the open. So we dont
want that kind of ideology anymore that creates and harbors secret services and
paranoia.
DALAI LAMA : Thank you!
DHAR : I would like to thank you on behalf of Rethinking Marxism for this interview, this
dialog with us, and for the way you have engaged with our questions.

Acknowledgments
The editors of this special issue of Rethinking Marxism would like to thank Dr. Dibyesh
Anand, for assistance in setting up the interview with the fourteenth Dalai Lama, and Mr.
Tenzin Taklha, Secretary, Ofce of the fourteenth Dalai Lama, for help in conducting the interview and for constant editorial support with respect to the transcript of the interview. The
editors would also like to thank Karuna Chandrasekhar for help in transcription.
embodiment of the brutalized; here was the brutalized asking me, Are you a Marxist? Are you still a
Marxist, after all that you have heard and seen? Can you be one?
For a moment, I found it difcult to say with consummate ease and pride, Yes, I am one. I felt for a
moment I would be failing the brutalized, I would be failing history and the history of brutality, if I
uttered, without a pause, without a moments reection, without doubt, and with too much condence,
Yes, I am a Marxist. Faced with the history and experience of violence, face-to-face with the brutalized,
I couldnt say with condence, Yes, I am. I could only manage, Not in the old way. It was like saying,
Yes, I am. I am still. But not in the old waythe ways that have brutalized you. It was as if to reassure
the brutalized: I have heard you. I feel for you. I am not like them. Wethe Rethinking Marxism collectiveare not like them. We are in search of a different Marxism. Of Marxism with a difference.

598

Dhar, Chakrabarti, and Kayatekin

References
The Fourteenth Dalai Lama. 1994. A ash of lightning in the dark of night: A guide to the
Bodhisattvas way of life. Boston: Shambhala.
. 1997. Healing anger: The power of patience from a Buddhist perspective. Trans. T. Jinpa.
Ithaca, N.Y.: Snow Lion.
. 2004. Practicing wisdom: The perfection of Shantidevas Bodhisattva way. Trans. and ed.
T. Jinpa. Boston: Wisdom Publications.
Marx, K. 2016 (1965). Capital. Vol. 1. Trans. S. Moore and E. Aveling, ed. F. Engels. Moscow:
Progress
Publishers.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/pdf/
Capital-Volume-I.pdf.
ntideva. 1960. Bodhicaryvatra of ntideva. In Buddhist Sanskrit Texts XII, ed. P. L.
Vaidya. Darbhanga, India: Mithila Institute.
. 1970. ikssamuccaya. In ikshsamuccaya: A compendium of Buddhistic teachings, compiled by ntideva chiey from earlier Mahyna stras, ed. C. Bendall. Osnabruck,
Germany: Biblio Verlag.