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AboutISC September2005 Vol.24No.7

ApublicationoftheInternationalSculptureCenter
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SculptureMagazine

SculptureCommunity
AnInterviewwithMaurizioCattelan
byAndreaBellini
Sculptor'sPortfolio

ArtworkforSale
MaurizioCattelanwasborninPaduain1960.Hedidnotattendartschoolbuttaughthimself.Cattelanworkedasa
Destinations gardener,mortuaryattendant,anddesigner,amongotherthings,beforeturningtomakingart.Inthe80s,hestartedhis
careerinForl(Italy)whereheknewsomelocalartists.Hisworksoftencombinesculptureandperformanceandreveala
Resources refinedsenseoftheparadoxesoftransgression.Heidentifiesthevulnerableaspectsoftheartsystem,andofrealityin
SiteMap general,inordertohighlightthem,withouteverfallingintothenaivetrapofthinkinghecansubvertasystemofwhichheis
part.Cattelanlikestoplaytheroleoftheloser,evenifhedefinitelyseemsawinner:heisoneofthebestknownItalian
Store artiststohaveemergedinternationallyinthe1990s,andhisreputationcontinuestogrow.Hehashadsoloexhibitionsinthe
worldsmostdistinguishedmuseums,includingtheMuseumofModernArt,NewYork,andtheMuseumofContemporary
FAQ
Art,LosAngeles.CattelanhasparticipatedinfiveeditionsoftheVeniceBiennale,aswellasinmanyothercollective
JoinEmailList exhibitionssuchastheWhitneyBiennial,Manifesta,andApocalypseattheRoyalAcademyinLondon.

AndreaBellini:MaurizioCattelan,tointerviewyouisnottheeasiestthingintheworld.

MaurizioCattelan:Wellthen,dont.

AB:Imjustsayingthatitsnoteasytointerviewyoubecauseonvariousoccasionsyouvedeclaredthatyouhavenoideas
andnotheories.So,Imwonderingwhysomeoneshouldwanttointerviewyou.

MC:ActuallyIdoeverythingpossibletodiscourageinterviews.ItsnotthatIamopposedtothem,itsjustthatIdontthink
Ihaveanythinginterestingtosay.Immorecuriousaboutotherpeoplesopinions.Intheend,withoutothers,withouttheir
ideas,withouttheirstories,youdontreallyexistandneitherdoesyourwork.Thatswhyoneshouldlistentoothersrather
thantooneself.

AB:Letstalkaboutyourwork,yoursculptures.

MC:Itfeelsstrangetotalkaboutsculptures.Itsnotsomuchaquestionofmeansasofimages.Ineverevenusemy
handstocreatemywork,justmyeargluedtothephone.Morethananythingelse,Ilistentothemurmurofimages,and
thatsalwayslouderthantheechointhephone.Immoreinterestedinimagesthaninsculptures.Imagine:Inevertooka
chiselinmyhands,neverevenhadastudio.
AB:Sowhatareimagesforyou?

MC:Theyareastatisticalvariationofthereal.Iminterestedinreality,theoneweseeeveryday:athought,somethingyou
sawonTVorreadinthepapers,somethingthatleftanimpressionwhilesurfingontheWeb.Imageshavethestrengthto
summarizethepresentandperhapstotransformitintoananticipationofthefuture.Perhapsmyworkisjust
amagnifyinglensthatallowsyoutoseethehiddendetailsofreality.

AB:Butitsalsoafactthatyourimagesarealwaysthreedimensional,thattheyoccupyaphysicalspace.Why?

MC:EverytimeIstartanewpieceIconsideraspace,apreciselocationwhereitwillbelocated.Icantworkinemptiness,
Iwouldendupgettinglost.Ivebeenworkingthiswayforawhile,anditintriguesmehowthereisonlyonesolutionforeach
space,onesingleanswerthatworks.

#ISDay AB:Whatdoyoumeanbyoneanswer?Helpmeunderstand.

MC:Imalwayschasingnewchallenges,newpossibilities,andnewlocations.Imnotonlyinterestedintheartpublic,but
alsointhosepeoplewhojusthappencasuallytopassby.Artshouldnotbeaspaceshutinonitself,butratheramagnetic
fieldthatattractstheenergiesofartistsintospace,andpossiblyintothecitiesinwhichtheycirculate.Imsearchingforthat
magnetism,likeachemicalreaction.Atomsdontjoincasuallywitheachother,thatswhythereisonlyoneanswer,one
singlereaction.Istudiedalittlechemistry,andIbelievethatitisamatterofpositivesandnegatives,orsomethinglikethat.
Andthenyoualsoneedluck,lotsofluck.

AB:Right,Iremember:thestoryoftheelectrotechnician.

MC:Ididmanythingsbeforebecominganartist.Iwaslookingforawaytogainmorefreedom,toescapetheauthorityof
time.IdontthinkthatIsucceededindoinganythingdifferentfromanyoneelse.Isimplyinventedasystemthatcangive
methefreedomtosaywhatIthinkorwhatotherpeoplethink.Thatswhatreallyinterestsmeaboutart:thepossibilityof
inventingimagesthattriggerreactions,thatbecomeamirrorofourtime.TheresnotabigdifferencebetweenaTVantenna

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andanartist:botharemechanismsofcirculation,signalamplifiers.Morethananartist,Ifeellikeanantennainstaller.

AB:Youtalkaboutreactions.Thereforethescandalthatyourworksprovokeisonlyanaccident.

MC:Ineverpurposelydecidetocreateascandal,toprovoke.AsIwastellingyoubefore,imagessometimesmanageto
anticipatethefuture,andmaybethatswhatscandalizesthepublicnottorecognizethemselvesinwhattheysee.Imnot
reallyinterestedinprovocation.Iaminterestedinpeoplesreactions,though:aworkofartisnotcompletewithoutthe
comments,thewords,andideasofwhoeverhappenstobeinfrontofit.Theyaretheoneswhocreatethework.Idontdo
anything:artdoesntexistwithoutpointsofviewanddifferentinterpretations.MaybeevenyouandIdontexist.

AB:Andwhataboutthepope?Wasntthepope,hitbyameteorite,aspecificallyCatholicprovocation?\

MC:Idontthinkitwasaprovocation.AndcertainlynotantiCatholic,comingfromme,whogrewupsinginginthechurch
choirbetweensaintsandaltarboys.Thepopeismoreawayofremindingusthatpower,whateverpower,hasanexpiration
date,justlikemilk.Inthebeginning,thepopewassupposedtobesomethingelse.

AB:Howwasitsupposedtobe?

MC:Inthebeginning,hewassupposedtobestanding,withthecrucifixinhishands.WhenitwasfinishedandIstoodin
frontofit,Ifeltasifsomethingwasmissing,thatthepiecewasnotcomplete.Whatitneededwasverysimple:itlacked
dramaandthecapacitytoconveythefeelingofbeinginfrontofsomethingextraordinaryandpowerful.Itdidnthavethe
senseoffailureanddefeat.Thatpiecedoesnthavemuchtodowithreligion:Immoreinterestedintheactualpeople
playingtheirrolesthanintheirhistoricalpersonalities.

AB:Asecularpiecethen,howcurious.AndwhataboutHitlerkneelinginprayer?Wasthatapublicitystunt?

MC:Ilikepublicity:beautifulimages,lotsofgirls.ButIdontthinkthatHitlerwasapublicitystunt.Hewasnttryingtosell
anything.Onthecontrary,itwasaroughimageaboutpeelingoffmasksandroles.AtthebeginningIthoughtheshouldbe
naked,liketheemperorinthefairytale.ButthenIrealizedthatitsalwaysmoreinterestingtomixthecardsandpickthe
rightone.

AB:Sowhatroledoeschanceplay?Tome,itdoesntseemthatyouleaveanythingtochanceinwhatyoudo.

MC:Chanceisalwayspartofit.Take,forexample,theworkIdidforMilan,inPiazzaXXIVMaggio.TheTrussardi
Foundationinvitedmetodoapiece,forMilan,andIchosetoworkinthatpiazzaandonthattree,whichlooksjustlikea
treeoutofafairytale,imposinglikeaskyscraperinthemidstofloudandconstantcartraffic.Tobehonest,Ialsochose
thatpiazzabecauseofthefriedfishkioskonthecorner.Theideainmymindwastodoapiecethatwouldbelikeasmall
urbanlegendwithatragicending.Perhapsawaytoreflectonthepresent,withitstensionsandnightmares.Inanyevent,a
fewhourslater,thesculpturenolongerexistedinthepiazzaitonlyremainedinnewspapersandonTVnews.Thatswhat
chancehastodowithit.

AB:Listen,Idontmeantobeblunt,buteveninthatcasesomepeoplesaidyouwerearealconman.Youorganizedfake
biennialsintheCaribbean,youattachedadealertothewallsofhisgallerywithScotchtape,youcopiedtheshowofanother
artistineverydetail,yousoldyourspaceattheVeniceBiennialtoapublicityagencythatwaslaunchinganewperfume,
youdenouncedtherobberyofaninvisibleworkofartofyourstothepolice,youslashedZorrosZintoapainting,imitating
Fontanascuts,youhada300yearoldtreegrowrightthroughaflashynewAudicar.WhoisMaurizioCattelan,acourt
jester,aliar,oraconman?

MC:Ajester?Ivebeentryingtosayseriousthingsforalifetime,butnobodyeverbelievesme.Aconman?Ineverrobbed
anyone,nevercommittedperjury,nevercommittedimmoralacts.Aliar?Idontbelieveinasingletruth,onlyinaninfinite
combinationofpossibilities.Imabundleofcontradictions,justlikeeveryoneelse.

AB:Ifoneanalyzesyourworkfromthelast15years,itseemstoberelatedtospeed,totheideaofescape.Youreableto
changesubjectsquicklyandtomaintainatensionwithinyourinventions.Whatisitabout?

MC:Iamalwaysinterestedindiscoveringtheserviceentranceandthebackstairineachbuilding,thebackexitsand
secretpassages.Toconfrontrealityfacetofaceissometimesjustawayofshowingstrengthand,asalways,justanother
maskonewearsinordertohide.

AB:Letschangesubjectandtalkaboutyou.Yourfriends,eventheoneswhoveknownyouforyears,saythatthereisa
partofyouthatisimpenetrableandungraspable,thattheresapartofMaurizioCattelanhiddenfromeveryone.Isthattrue?

MC:Ratherthanparts,therearesomespacesthatIliketokeephidden,leavingthemtotheimagination.Forexample,my
homeeventhoughthereisnothingtoimagineorsee.Itsjustfourbarewalls,acarpet,nofurniture,andnopaintings.Its
likewithjam:whenyouaresmallandyouknowthatthereisajaronthetopshelfofthekitchencabinet,butyoucantseeit
andyoudontknowwhatflavoritis,soyoualwaysimagineittobebetterthanwhatitisinreality.Doyoulikejam?

AB:Yes,apricotjam.ButImtheonedoingtheinterviewhere,youarethepublicfigure.

MC:Imnotapublicfigure,Imnotacelebrity.Thefactthatartists,curators,andpeoplefromtheartworldknowmedoesnt
makemeacelebrity.Theworldoutthereismuchlargerthanwhatyouimagine.Andbesides,Ihavealwaysdonemyjob,I
neverwenttothetopoftheColosseumandhadTVstationscomewithhelicopters.

AB:Whatiscontemporaryartforyou,apartfromtraveling,success,andmoney?

MC:Ispendmoney,ratherthenaccumulatingit.Forme,moneyisatransmissionmechanism,somethingthatshould
circulateratherthanbestoredinamattress.Andanywaymineisawatermattress,soitwouldmolderimmediately.
Travelingispartofthejobitsawayoftryingtoaccumulateimagesandideasthatotherpeoplehavehad.Idontknow
whatartis:Imanightschoolelectrotechnicianwho,aftercheatinginthebackrow,managedtopass.

AB:Lightness,speed,desecratingirony.Thesewordsarerecurrentinyourvocabulary.Isthisyourlegacy?

MC:Thosewordsrecurinthevocabularyofthosewhowriteaboutme,notsomuchinmine.AndifIthinkoflegacy,the
onlythingthatcomestomindistheTVquizshow.Ibelieveonecanwinalotofmoneyinit,butobviouslytheynever
invitedmetoparticipate.

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AB:Aproposyouritinerary:Wasntitenoughtosimplybeanartistwithoutanartisticformation?Whydidyoualsodecideto
publishtwomagazines,CharleyandPermanentFood,becomeacollector,interviewvariousartistsforFlashArtandnowbe
acurator?ArentyouoneofthecuratorsoftheBerlinBiennial?

MC:Iminterestedinthepossibilityofchangingmasksandrolesandseeingwhathappens.Impreparingthenexteditionof
theBerlinBiennialtogetherwithMassimilianoGioniandAliSubotnick.ItwillopeninMarch2006,sowestillhavelotsof
timetofindtherightdirection.Althoughintheenditsnotsomuchaquestionofwhereonegoes,asmuchaswhatpathone
takes.IdothingsoutofinstinctIneverthinkofwheretheymighttakeme,eventhoughsometimesittakesmetwoyears
tomakethemostsimpledecision.LikedoingtheWrongGalleryorPermanentandCharley.Westartedasanexperiment,to
openaspacealmostlikeagame,andintheenditbecameaseriousthing,andlotsofwork.

AndreaBelliniisU.S.editorofFlashArt.

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