Demystifying "Carlos": An Interview with Olivier Assayas

Author(s): Richard Porton and Olivier Assayas

Source: Cinéaste, Vol. 36, No. 1 (WINTER 2010), pp. 16-22
Published by: Cineaste Publishers, Inc
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 Carlos:
Demystifying
An Interview with Olivier Assayas

by Richard Porton
~D
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thetwilight yearsoftheColdWarin the1970sand offers hisservices toa hostofauthoritarian regimes intheEastern Bloc
1980s , IlichRamírez Sánchez,(a.k.a.Carlos) - a mannow andtheMiddleEastuntiltheendofstatesocialism inEuroperenders
During safely imprisoned ina French jail- wasconsidered oneofthe himan outmoded relicofan earlierera.Eventually expelled from
world's mostnefarious terrorists.
Knownworldwide as "theJackal"- hefinally
Syria, findsrefuge in theSudan.Whenthesupposedly inde-
becauseofthemistaken beliefthathe owneda copyofFrederickfatigable mastermind dismays theIslamicregime with hisdissolutehabits
Forsyth'sTheDayoftheJackal thatwasfoundina Parisflatheonce andwomanizing hebecomes a soft fortheFrench
target authorities who
livedinbefore killing twoagents oftheFrench DST (Directorate ofTer- havelongyearned forthearrest ofthemanwhowreaked havoconRue
ritorial
Security) - helivesoninthepopularimagination through fic- ToullierinParis.Primed bya tipfromtheCIA,heisfinally hauledoff
tionalized portrayals in Robert Ludlum'sBournenovelsand Tom tojail bytheFrench secret servicesin1994.
Clancy's Rainbow Six. Longfascinated byAmerican andAsiangenrecinema, Assayas
Although Carlosin hisheyday wascertainly a violentandcharis- alwaysunderlines theactionwithan unobtrusive critique ofhisanti-
matic figure,there's littledoubtthatthemainstream mediainflated his hero'spseudoleftism and callousmurder ofinnocent civilians. Even
homtctdal prowessand thoughCarlos contains
builthimupas a quasiom- elements ofthepolitical
nipotent nemesis threaten- fact from fiction, the filmmaker thriller, the docudrama,
Separating
ing Western democratic andthebiopic, it'sintrigu-
interests.Neoconservative makes an intimate epic from the life of a ingexpressly becauseit
polemicists suchas Brian terrorist who is shrouded in mythology. cannotbe reduced toany
Crozierencouragedthe of these genres.Manyof
mediatospinincongru- the reviews - and even
ously talltales about the Venezuelan-born terrorist
for hireand free- Assayas himself in the interview thatfollows - labels thefilm'space
lancehitman.AsMatthew Can observes inhisexcellent "
historyofter- propulsive." It'san entirely appropriate adjective sinceCarlos's vertig-
rorism, TheInfernal Machine,"Inthesummer of1976heseemed to inouslybloody trajectory ismirrored bythefilm's frenetic stylisticmeld
beeverywhere at once.In Mayhewasreported tohaveblownhimselfofhand-held cinematography, occasional jumpcuts,and up-tempo
upin TelAviv.In June, theRoyalCanadianMounted Policeissueda postpunk popmusic.
nationwide alertamidreports thathewasin Canadatodisrupt the In manyrespects, however, Carlosis lesslikea biopic(oneofthe
Montreal Olympics. Thesamemonth Italianreports linkedhimtothe mostdispiritingly conventional ofallcinematic genres) thanitsostensi-
RedBrigades... Allthiswasfantasy." blefocusmight leadaudiences tobelieve. Since
As demonstrated in Carlos, Olivier theimpulsive terroristisessentially little more
Assayas'scompelling five-and-a-half hour film thana narcissistic cipher,it'sa reliefthat
(commissioned byCanalPlus,theFrench tele- Assayasrefrains fromboguspsychological
vision network, itwasbroadcast on TheSun- explanations forhisprotagonist's erratic
danceChannel in October andis alsoscreen- behavior. EvenCarlos's sexual fetishes- oneof
ingin an abridged cutin majorAmerican thefilm's keyscenes involves himtitillating his
theatrical markets), thishedonistic sonofa girlfriend byprodding hertosuckona grenade
well-heeledMarxist lawyer witha giftforrad- - areas muchtheproduct
clip ofthemachis-
icalsloganeering, wasfarfrom theMabuselike moofterrorism itselfas they arereflections of
evilgeniusthatright-wing punditsrailed personal predilections.Infact,oneofthefilm's
against.He wasinfacta stunningly ineptter- signalachievements is itsportrait ofhow,for
roristwhonevertheless benefitedfrom remark- many,theidealismoftheSixtiesNewLeft
ablelucksincehisstrenuous effortstooutwit congealed intoa hodgepodge ofcynical sloga-
thelongarmofthelawspanned threedecades. neering and opportunism. In addition,the
Starting outas a proponent ofPalestinian scopeofAssayas's vest-pocket epicallowshim
nationalism under thewingofWadieHaddad toprofile manyother fascinating personages
and thePopularFront fortheLiberation of fromCarlos's milieu: amongothers, Magdale-
Palestine,hewaseventually dumped byHad- naKopp,themilitant from Germany's notori-
dadafter hisreckless tendencies proved exces- ousRevolutionary Cellswhomhemarries and
sivelybrash;after fulfilling hisassignment in thenditchesforanotherwoman;Hans-
Viennatoholdministers anddelegates ofthe Joachim Klein,whoplayed a crucial roleinthe
1975OPECconference hostage,hebungles his OPEC operation and subsequently comesto
missionbymakinga deal withAlgerian regret theconsequences ofhisterrorist career;
authoritiesandfreeing alloftheprisoners. Inoneofhis false Ramirez and the trigger-happy Gabriele Kröcher-
many passports,
Fromthispointon,Carlosis a free-lancer Sánchezposesas a Peruvianeconomist Tiedemann, a.k.a. "Nada,"a womanwho
buffeted bythewindsoftheColdWarwho named CarlosMartinezTorres. evenCarlosregards as a lunatic.
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Carlos threatens
Ramírez)
(Edgar hostages
during inthisscenefrom
theOPECoperation Olivier Carlos
Assayas's byJean-Claude
(photo Moireau).

Oneo/Carlos s bonafidepleasures isthemeticulousness ofthecast- as a feature filmeventhough itwasfinanced byFrench television.

ing.In theleadrole , EdgarRamirez , himself a multilingual Venezue- Cineaste:You'reknown formoreintimate films. Carlos,ontheother
lan, isalways convincing, whether mouthing radicalplatitudes orcon- hand,isa kindofintimate epic.
to a while offwhatever weapon Assayas: Sure. I've made movesin thisdirection, butnothing
niving escapefrom tight spot firing
tobenearby. thesupporting , AhmadKaabour beforeof this scope.
happens Among players
isespecially as thequietly WadieHaddad. Cineaste:Whileyouwereworking on thescript withDan Franck ,I
impressive imperious wonder triedtostrike a balancebetween
Cineasteinterviewed Assayas in New York in October as Carlos ifyou avoiding romanticizing
Carloson theonehandand,on theother, making yourcritique of
beganitstheatrical run.In a wide-ranging conversation, hediscusses ortendentious.
hisextensive research to the Carlostooheavy-handed
everything from preproduction legacyof to establish fact:theinvolvement ofDan Franck
- Richard Porton Assayas:Yes.Just
GuyDebord andtheSituationists.
wasrather minimal. We hadsomeconversations thatweremostly
Cineaste:I understand thatCarloswasa project thatDanielLeconte aboutstructuring thethreeparts.But,as faras thewriting itself
was
toyou. concerned, I did it pretty much on my own. I would give him the
suggested aboutsomeofthefiner
OlivierAssayas:Yes,DanielLecontegaveme aboutfourpages threepartsandwewouldhavediscussions
focusing onhowCarlos wasarrested inSudan. Itactuallydealtmorewith points.
thedealings between theFrench and the Sudanesegov- To me,therewasonlyone possibleapproachto thematerial.
government That wasa factual Itwasn'tabouteither orcrit-
ernment thanwiththedetails ofhisarrest. That'snottheangleI stayed approach. endorsing
with. I
Once gotinvolved, I shifted
the focus to the ofCarlos. icizing Carlos. It was about putting factsone afterthe other and
telling story on screen most of what is known about Carlos. As far as
Cineaste:Butifs clearthatonceyougotinvolved itbecame a personal putting
- withprevious judgment and interpretation goes, it'sup to the viewer.I don't think
projectonethatinfacthascertain affinities filmsof it's You don'tneedto havemuchofa moralcompass
yours suchas Boarding Gate. verydifficult.
to understand Carlos's actions.Still,I didn'tthinkit neededto be
Assayas:Oh,yes.I keptnothing fromthematerial DanielLeconte
overstated. I was primarily interested in puttingfactsone after
brought to me. But I don't think I would have a as
developedproject anotherand
as Carloson myown.It'sthekindofprojectthatrarely seeing the result.Because whatever resultcameup
complex wouldnotbe an interpretation ofCarlos - itwouldbe aboutpro-
happens. You often ten
spend yearstrying put to this sort ofthing
Whatwasinteresting to mewasthattherewasalready an viding theelements toviewers thatwouldenablethemtogobeyond
together. the standard media ofCarlos.
initialcommitment fromCanal Plus. There was a certain to
reality Cineaste:And stereotype
theproject OnceI hadreshaped I ofcourse hada meeting withthe taking that observation as a departure point,thefilm
things, as a creation
CanalPluspeopleto be suretheywereOK withwhatI suggested. appears to view Carlos's reputation mainly ofthemedia.
were and excited. were Assayas: He's bothsomeonebuiltup bythemediaanda creature
Fortunately, they very happy Eventually, they He'sneverreally himself. Carlos
opento developing itfarbeyondwhatwasinitially planned.I also produced byvarious secret services.
tookcontrol oftheconcept, sincefrom thebeginning I thought ofit is notsomeonewhohad big ideasor was a bigthinker. He was
someone who,formostofhiscareer, wasa hiredgun,a terrorist for
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Carlos Ramírez),
(Edgar byhisgirlfriend
accompanied (Martha
Amparo Higareda), oninCarlos
getshisrhetoric byJean-Claude
(photo Moireau).

hire.Atthebeginning ofhiscareer, he wasa militant working for Follain's,3although itwaswritten quitea whileago.It'swaymore
the PFLP executingoperationsconceivedby someoneelse, accurate.It has a lot ofblindspots,therearea lot ofthingshe
WadieHaddad.In terms
specifically oftelling hisstory,
youneedto doesn'tget.Butit'stheone fairly seriousbookon Carlos.Allthe
dealwithbothaspects. others
aremoreorlessfantasies.
Youneedtoestablish whyhebecamehismyth - whythispartic- Cineaste: In readingaboutthissubject, youquicklynoticethat
ularindividual becamea larger-than-life figurethrough themedia. Carlos'sreputation wasbuiltup byneocons likeClaireSterling and
Andbeyond that,youhavetomakethebasicfacts clear. BrianCrozier, whohadan ideological interest
inconstructing himas a
Cineaste:Stephen Smithwasyourhistorical advisor.
In additionto brilliantterrorist
mastermind.
his role, weretherewereany bookson Carlosthatyoufound Assayas: We did notuse thatmaterialat all. That'sstuff that
particularly
helpful inyourresearch ? Stephendidn'twanttotouchwitha ten-foot pole.Sincemostofitis
Assayas:Notthatone [points toa copyofDavidYallop's Tracking invention, it'sradioactive.
the Jackal1thatI've broughtwithme]. That one is terribly Cineaste:Ofcourse , Sterlingand Croziers propaganda , andwriting
misleading. It'san embarrassing mixture offactandfantasy, which ofthat ilk,waslargely fortheinflation
responsible oftheCarlosmyth.
istheworst combination. Itgotusintotrouble. Forexample, there's Assayas:Yes,exactly. Thethingis thatCarlosis ultimately much
an interesting chapterwherehe describes a meeting withKhalid2 simpler. Thebigquestion, andwereally can'tdetermine theanswer,
and outlines thebehind-the scenesworking oftheViennaOPEC is- Did hehaveanyKGBconnections? There's nosmoking gun.
operation. So, basedon thatbook,StephenSmithwasconvinced Cineaste:ButYuriAndropov makes a memorable appearance inyour
thatKhalidwas notAnisNaccachesince,whenthisinterview was film.
given,AnisNaccachewasinjail in France.I researched thismatter Assayas:Yes,there's Andropov. But,closertohome,there's Wadie
extensively; forme,therewas no question- KhalidwasAnis Haddad.He was notorious forhisKGBconnections. In termsof
Naccache.I've metNacccacheand discusseditwithhim.So this Carlos,Stephen didn'twantto go theresince,unlikewithHaddad,
leadstothefactthattheinterview itself
wasa fabrication. theconnections can'tbe definitively
established.A lotofbooksplay
Cineaste:Do youthink Carlosmisled Yallop? withthis,but no one comesclose to connecting thedots.My
Assayas:I think, sadly,he madea lotofit up himself. Thereare conviction isthathewasa KGBagent.Butthere's nowayofproving
someinteresting factsthatarefirsthandand they're completely it.
intertwinedwithfabrications. Cineaste:Itseems entirely
plausible, sincehepassedthrough
especially
Cineaste:Werethere other sourcesthatSmith oryoufoundvaluable Eastern Bloccountries suchas Hungary andEastGermany.
duringyourresearch? Assayas:To me,it'shardto conceivethathe couldhavehadthe
Assayas:Stephen dida lotoffirst-hand research.He hasverysolid freedom he enjoyedin theEastern blocwithout somesortofKGB
sources,often sources.
intelligence He dida veryserious job.Also,a link.It'sentirelypossible.ButI'mnota journalist ora historian. I'm
lotofwhatheuncovered is notinthepublished Carlosbiographies;justgoingbyinstinct.
theyaregetting prettyold,in anycase.The betterbookis John Thisis a bigblank.He's initiallya partisanofthePFLP.Wadie
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Haddadinfactfires himfrom thePalestinian cause.Oncehe'sfired, thateverycreditable intelligence sourceclaimedit was an Iraqi
he'sdependent on whowillhirehimin theMiddleEast.Carlosis operation.The thingis that,at thattime,Iraq and Libyawere
notsomesortofsuperspy ortheoretician ofterrorism. He's all too extremely closepolitically. Theywerealmostlikeone entity; they
human ina certain way. werethetwomainplayers in the"refusal front" resistingthepeace
Cineaste:Andthefilmmakes himouttobequitea bungler. There's a process withIsrael.Theywerecompletely insync.So I couldaccept
comic element tomany his
of operations. the fact thatthere might have been some Libyaninvolvement. But,
Assayas:Yes,andthisis something thatI hadn'texpected. It really still,it'sprettyobviousthatViennawasan Iraqioperation. After the
cameoutofanalyzing theoperations. Asyoucanimagine, noneof filmwasaired,he gavean interview to theGermanpress.SinceI
thoseoperations weredescribed in thenewspapers in thewaythat don'treadGerman, I'mnotprecisely surewhatitconsisted of.Butit
theyactually happened. It'sonlybyfiguring italloutthatthereality wasreportedly similar stuff. He wasn'ttooarticulate.
oftheoperations emerge. Andthenyourealizethat,forthemost Cineaste:There's ofcourse someoverlap between yourfilmandthe
part,theseoperations werepretty clumsy. perspective offered byBarbetSchroeder' s Terror'sAdvocate -
Cineaste:Thisisespecially trueoftheOPECoperation , which goes in particularlyregarding the roles ofJacques Vergés, Hans- Joachim Klein,
a much differentdirectionthanCarlosoriginally intended. andMagdalena Kopp.
Assayas:Yes,butthat'swhathistory is all about.As muchas you Assayas:Yes,sinceVergéswasMagdalenaKopp'slawyer, he met
thinkyoucanhavesomeMachiavellian grasponhistory andpushit Carlosat varioustimes - in Budapest, and possibly, although I'm
in thisor thatdirection, there'sultimately a solid elementof notsure,in Damascus.He wasfondofMagdalenaKopp.Did he
irrationality.Youcangetthings moving, butyouhavenoideawhere havesexwithher?It'ssomething forhistorians to analyze. It could
thechipsaregoingto fall.It cango horribly wrong.In thatsense, havehappened onlyduring theveryshortperiodwhentheGerman
whenitinvolves somehigher echelon ofpolitics, Carlosis notup to policelethergo and sheleftforDamascus.Actually, we filmed a
thetask.He achieves whathe seeksto achieve. Yet,whenhe hasto sceneofthemtogether inspired byMagdalenaKopp'sbook.It's
makedecisions on hisownwithout theadviceofWadieHaddad, kindofan interesting scene.Butatthatpoint,itwastoomuchofa
he'scompletely outofhisdepth. digression.Itwasoneoftheveryfewsceneswecutoutofthefilm.
Cineaste:Carloscomes off as someone whose revolutionary rhetoric is Cineaste: One getstheimpression thatJohannes Weinrich was
basically a lotofhotair.Mostviewers wouldprobably agreewithhis unperturbed bythefactthatCarlosranoffwithKopp.He doesn't
thathisrevolutionary rhetoric ismerely a disguise complain atall!
" diagnosis
girlfriend's "
forhis bourgeois arrogance. Assayas:Yeah,that'smoreor lesshowithappened. One day,she
Assayas: Yes,butin termsofhisrhetoric, it'spretty muchthe decidedshewanted tobewithCarlosandWeinrich continued being
rhetoric ofhistimes.He's nottheonlyone and he speaksthis Carlos'sright-hand man.
languagewitha certainamountof conviction. But,ultimately,Cineaste:Couldyoudescribe someofthedifficulties oftrying toshoot
whatever hethinks countsforverylittle sinceallthatcountsiswhat inbothSyriaandYemen?
he actually does.Veryearly Assayas:Fromthestart, we
on,he's disconnected from "To me, there was only one possible knewit was impossibleto
anyrational discourse.On the shootin Syria.It's stillthe
one hand,whenhe's trying approach to the material. That was a samestate,thesamestruc-
to sabotagethepeacetalks factual approach. It wasn't about tures, and thesamesecret
andsabotage Arafat andthe servicethat'sdepicted in the
PLO,youcan say,to a cer- either endorsing or criticizing Carlos." film.Myartdirector and I
tainextent, thathisactions traveled a fewtimesto Da-
areinsyncwithhisopinions. But,atthesametime, youcanalsosay mascusjustto geta feeloftheplace- theneighborhood where
thathe'sactingon behalfofthisor thatMiddleEastern stateand, Carloslivedand thestatesecurity buildings. We knewwe would
becauseofhisowninterests, basicallywantstopointmatters inthis haveto re-create Damascusin either Beirutor Tripoli.Therearea
orthatdirection. Andhe'shardly awareofit. fewshotsofDamascus;in one ofthevarioustripsI madethereI
Cineaste:Youinclude somenewsreel footage fromtheera.Butwas founda friend whohada permit toshootinSyriaandwesmuggled
there any inclination
to include footage of some ofCarlos7s bloodiest the footage out of the country.
rampages - forexample, thehorrific bombing oftheParisDrugstore or We hada permit to filminYemenandcouldhavefilmed there. It
thebombing ofM WatanAlArabi,theArabnewspaper inParis?Was wasverycomplicated, butwehaditandchosethelocations. Butthe
anyofthat material
available? French producers gotextremely scaredandforbade us tofilmthere.
Assayas:We usedthebestavailable footage, themostexplicit and Sincewewouldhavebeenthefirst Western filmto shootinYemen
violent. I supposethegoriest stuff hasnotbeenkept;it'snotthesort sincePasolini's Arabian Nights, I wasextremely pissedoff.
of footagethatwouldbe saved in the archive.I was kindof Cineaste:Andyoudidn't shootinSudan,where Carlosendsupbefore
determined toshowthebrutality oftheactions. Thething isthatthe being hauledoff bytheFrench authorities.
cameramen usuallyarriveafter theevent, whentheambulances are Assayas: We triedto shootin Sudan.It couldhavehappened.
carrying off the bodies.In other words, I didn't censor anything - Whenyougo to Khartoum, it'sverylivelyanddoesn'tseemlikea
quitetheopposite. totalitarianstate.We discussed itwithsomeofficials andconsulted
Cineaste: Therehavebeensomereports thatCarloshimself has withtheFrench embassy. Butthencametheindictment ofPresident
commented onthefilm. Hasheactually seenit? OmarHassanal-Bashir bytheInternational Criminal CourtofThe
Assayas:He'scommented onthescreenplay. He somehow gothold Hague.So thatwastheendofit.He wasn'tgoingto do anyfavors
ofa copythrough somechannelor other.Buthe commented on fora Europeanstate.Andtheproblem wasthatwe thenlostour
verybanalthings - complaining thathesmoked cigarettesinstead of Sudanesecast.We had castthefilmin Khartoum and,all of a
cigarsorthathenever worea goldchainas hedoesinonescene.For suddentheywerepressured notto appearin thefilm.Thosewho
somereason, he'swritten an accountoftheViennaoperation andis didn'tbackout wereputon somekindofblacklist and weren't
obsessedwithblamingQaddafiforcommissioning it,something allowedto leavethecountryto cometo Beirutwherewe were
thatisextremely doubtful. Whyishedetermined tolabelita Libyan shooting.
operation andhasn'twritten aboutanyofhisotherexploits? Cineaste:Is ittruethatCarlosalarmed theauthorities because ofhis
Cineaste:He doesn't mention SaddamHussein? dalliances withprostitutes?
Assayas:He pretends thatSaddamHusseinwasnotinvolved. In Assayas: Yes, absolutely.It's an Islamicrepublicand he was
thiscase,I haveto putmyfaithin Stephen'sresearch. Carlos's supposedly a convert to Islam.Buthe wasa drunkand hungout
position makesno sense.Stephen thoroughly researched itandsaid withprostitutes. So he endangered himself and,withtheendofthe
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FlyingfromVienna
toAlgiers
withhisOPEChostages,
Carlos(Édgar
Ramírez) theorders
ignores ofhisPFLPsuperior
andnegotiates
a cashsettlement
withtheAlgerian
government safereleaseinOlivier
fortheir Carlos
Assayas's (photobyJean-Claude
Moireau).

ColdWar,hehadbecomehistorically andpoliticallyirrelevant.His film.Where, forexample , didyoufindAhmadKaabour,whoplays

spacewasliterallyshrinking. WadieHaddadandwhoisvery convincing.
Cineaste:Thereception ofthefilmhasbeeneyeopening. Whilethe Assayas:Therearen'tmanyactorsin Lebanon.Sincethere'snot
reviewshavebeenalmost uniformly favorable,someofthecritics seem muchfilmmaking in Lebanon,therearen'tmanyprofessional
tohavea bitofhistorical myopia. Onereview, forexample, referredto actors.He's a musician, nota professional actor.He's famousfor
"
Carlosas a "revolutionary. writingprotest songs.I think he'salsoa civilservantworking forthe
Assayas:I certainly wouldneveruse thewordrevolutionary in ministry ofculture. In anycase,he'sneveractedin English. I think
conjunction withCarlos.Carloswasa secret agent.It'sstrayinginto hepulleditoff - he'samazing - butitwasa hugeeffort forhim.
theconventional mediaframework ofwhatCarloswasaboutand Cineaste:Whydidyoudecidetoshootina wide-screen ratio?
what the Seventieswere Assayas: 1 decidedupon
about.In somesortofster- this quite earlyon in the
eotypicalmedialanguage, "He's both someone built up by the process.SomehowI knew
Carloswasa revolutionary. In media and a creature produced that the filmhad a very
terms ofreality,hewasquite by
strongvisualelementand
theopposite.He waswork- various secret services. He's never thatwe'd be shootingin a
ing as a secretagent for really himself. Carlos is not someone
numberof locations.The
totalitarian
states. wide-screenratiois quite
Cineaste:Wereyouinspired who had big ideas or was a big thinker." good fordepictinggroup
tocastÉdgarRamírez based on scenes and showing off
hisperformances inTonyScott s DominoorSteven Soderberghs Che? locations. Its theformat I ve usedformostofmyrecent films.The
Assayas: No, it was mainlybasedon meetinghim.He was an wide-screen ratioalsosignalsthat,although TV commissioned the
obviousoption.HowmanyVenezuelan actorsdo youknowofwho film, it'snotTV.It'stheopposite ofa TV format. Butitshouldwork
couldplayCarlos? So I hadtomeethim.WhenI methim,I wasjust ontelevision ifyouhavea wide-screen TV.
astounded thattherewasthispersonwhohaditinhimtoachievea Cineaste:Andyouworked withtwoDPs.
veryimpressive approximation ofCarlos.Andhe'sa verysmart man Assayas:Yes,becauseYorickLe Saux'swifehada baby.Sincehe
as well.He wasreadytobe involved. I thought thewholeprocess - couldn'tbe withus in theMiddleEast,I brought in DenisLenoir
shooting for sixmonths in a veryindependent European film with andthey shared thefilm.It'sbasicallyfifty-fifty.
veryfewofthecomforts thatmostwouldexpect - wouldscaremost Cineaste:Areyouhappywiththeshorter , twohourandforty-five
actorsaway.Findinghimwas pretty miraculous. I don'tthinkI minute versionofthefilm?
wouldhavemadethefilm without him.No otheractorhadtheright Assayas: Well,of courseI'm happywiththeshorter version.I
physicalityorspokethree languages. wanted todo it,andI'mhappyI did.Butitwasa lotofhardwork.It
Cineaste:Youcasta number ofactorsfromtheArabworldin the wasmorecomplicated thanI everimagined. I thoughtitwouldjust
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be aboutcutting in blocks.Butit'sabsolutely notaboutcutting
chunks ofthefilm. To getitright, wehadto reshape thefilm.Even
stuffthatlooksthesameis notthesame.We had to makecuts
within scenesandwithinshots.We constantly had to finda new
paceforthefilmthatwasobviously quitedifferent fromthelonger
version.Andtheeditingprocesswas muchmoredifficult than
editingthelonger cut.
Cineaste:Butyoudprefer audiences toseethelonger version?
Assayas:Ofcourse - iftheyhavethepatience. I knowthegeneral
audience wouldprefer a shorter cut.Thethingis thata five-and-a-
halfhourfilmis locatedwithin a veryspecific cinematic space.In
terms ofstyleandnarration, itallowsmeto go intoareasthatare
completely newforme.It'sa muchmoresatisfying reflection on
cinemaand thepowerof cinema.It showshowyou can deal
simultaneously withsmallandbigissues - smallissuesbeingthefate
ofone manandbigissuesbeingthegeopolitics ofa period.This
kindofscopeisn'treally possibleina shorter version.
Cineaste:There's beena certain amountofdiscussion in thepress
recentlyaboutthechoice ofmusic, particularly thepostpunk popsongs ,
inthefilm.Would youexplain the involved
process inchoosing thesetunes?
Assayas:It'sveryintuitive andpragmatic. I basically lookforwhat
works andconnects withtheimages. I haveno preconceptions. The
toneofthefilmis something I endedup finding through a process
oftrialanderror. Theonething thatstuckwasmusicthatcouldbe
described as propulsive. The filmrejected anything thatwastoo
emotional or commented on theaction.AtsomepointI realized
thattheonlysongsthatstuck werethosethatenergized thefilm.
But,in discussing it,theonethingI do regret is usingthetrack
fromNewOrder["DreamsNeverEnd"]becausepeopleare too
familiarwithit.Allofa suddenpeoplestart having associations that
havenothing to do withthefilmanditfucks up thescene.Butthe
problem is that,although I wasawareofthispossibility, I couldn't
findanythingthatworkedas well. I triedand triedto find
something thatworked andwaslessfamous. ButI justcouldn't find
it.
Cineaste:There seems tobesomething inthecinematic air.In thelast
fewyears,there havebeennumerous filmsonterrorism suchasKojiWaka-
matsus United RedArmy andUliEdel'sTheBaader-Meinhof Complex.
Assayas:I think it'ssimply a matter ofthepassingoftime.Carlos
is,in manyways,a lessdifficult subjectthantheRedArmyor the
Baader-Meinhof Group.In termsoftrauma, theGermans arestill
overcoming theBaader-Meinhof experience. It's extremely prob-
lematic totreatitincinemaandI don'tthink themoviedealswith
therealissues.I thinkitshiesawayfromtheColdWarelement of
thestoryand,again,I'm nota historian, butI don'tthinkthat
anyonecanseriously takeas factthesupposedcollective suicideof
theBaader-Meinhof. It'stheelephant intheliving roomofGerman
politicstoday. To me,it'sa verycomplex issueandI don'tthink the
movieisuptoit.
DealingwiththelapaneseRedArmy is evenmoredifficult; it'sa
national trauma inJapan. Thesefilms arebeingmadebecausethirty
yearshavepassed;thepolitical passionsoftheSeventies arefading
andsomehow theyarelessredhot.You canpretend to dealwith
themwithsomesortofhistorical perspective. Andyoucanalsodeal
withCarlosbecauseofthedistance wenowhavefrom thosetimes.
Cineaste:Youdealwiththedetailsofthatmilieuquitewell - the
Cubanmovie postersonthewallintheRueToullier flat, forexample,
areanintegral partofthemise-en-scène.
Assayas:Thisis actually historical.
Theposters arementioned in
thecops'description oftheflat.
Cineaste:TheSituationist analysisofterrorism pointstothefactthat
much ofit- especially inItaly- wastheresult ofstateinfiltration. And
Fassbinder, as farbackas theSeventies, captured thecollusion ofthe
statewithterrorists inTheThirdGeneration.
Assayas:Yes,Fassbinder, in manyways,gotitright. In Italy,very
fewfilmmakers havebeen able to handlethecomplexity and
perversity ofItalianterrorism. Somehow, PaoloSorrentino handles
itinII Divo.WhileI'mnotfondofthefilm, he'skindofcourageous
inputting itallonthetable.
2010 21
Winter
CINEASTE,

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Cineaste:In fact,in a Cineasteinterview , Sorrentino discusses his Assayas:Yes,theywerecritical ofwhattheytermed lesfictions du
interest in GianfrancoSanguinettťswork.Of course,Marco gauche - reallyconventional, simplistic filmsbyCosta-Gavras and
Bellocchio'
s GoodMorning, Nightis a muchmorepersonal takeon others thatoffered a stereotypicalportrait ofthepolitics ofthatera.I
theRedBrigades. can'tblamethemforthat.But,on theotherhand,I couldn't agree
Assayas: Yes,butit'sa greatfilm;I loveit. But,yes,themost withthekindoffilmmaking theyweresupporting. Atthattime, they
important analysisof Italianpoliticsof thistimecomesfrom weresupporting theworst kindofLeninist, quasitotalitarian cinema.
Sanguinetti andGuyDebord.Theygotitright early on. I couldn't goalongwiththat.
Cineaste:Although biographical accounts mention Carlos'ssexual Cineaste:Youoften speakofyourself as a filmmaker specializing in
charisma, youcertainly makeita crucial component ofthefilm.After globalization. Thispreoccupation is as apparent inSummer Hoursas
theattempted assassination ofJoseph EdwardSieff, thepresident of itisinCarlos.
Marks& Spencer , forexample , include a shot Carlos admiringAssayas:It'snota preoccupation, it'sanobservation. Globalization
hisnakedbodyinthemirror. " you arean extension of
Weapons ofmybody," is nota themein mymovies.It'sjusta veryhard,defining factof
isoneofhiskeylines. modern life.Peopleusethewordas ifit'sa newphenomenon, as ifit
Assayas: Thatspecificsceneand thatspecificlinecomesfrom hadneverhappened before. Butthehistory oftheworldisboundup
NydiaTobon'sbook.We'renotlegally allowedto mention herin withtraderoutesandhowtheyopenedup communication between
thefilm.Butshe'sCarlos'sLondonfriend. Shelivesin FranceandI civilizations. It was an extraordinarily slowprocess.The recent
thinkshe'steaching now.Shehas statusas a politicalrefugee in element is theacceleration ofthisprocess andthatnewareasofthe
France andgotina lotoftrouble becauseofherproximity toCarlos. worldhaveopenedup. Thisdefinesthepost-ColdWarworld.
She'sjustscaredthat, ifanyofthatcomesup,she'llloseresidency in Russia, India,andChinatoa greatextent, haveopeneduptiestothe
France.So, becauseofherlegalproblems, I respected herwishes. Westand becomemarketsthathavebroadenedthescope of
Boththedialogintherestaurant andthegrenade scene, withtheline, international trade.Thisis oneofthemostrelevant aspects ofhow
"Weapons aretheextension ofmybody,"comesfrom herbook. our societies are changing.If you want to deal with the
Cineaste:But,as a general point,Carlos's sexappeal,likethatofthe contemporary world,youhaveto confront theserealities. What's
Baader-Meinhof participants, becomes as important as hisactual bafflingto me is how fewfilmmakers are dealingwiththis
oractions.
beliefs transformation. Ithastodo withthewayfilms arefinanced.
Assayas:You can'tunderstand Carlosifyoudon'tunderline the Cineaste: Ofcourse,Asianfilmmakers suchas JiaZhangkeare
sexualelement. Everyone whoencountered himduring thatperiod confronting thequandaries ofglobalization.
emphasizes this.He hadanextremely strong presence andthey allwere Assayas:Yes,andI supposethatexplains myaffinities withAsian
fascinatedwithit.Thiswasnotednotonlybyhisgirlfriends, butalso filmmakers. They'refront-row witnessesto thesechangesand
bytheGerman leftist
militants.
Hewasunlike anyone elsethey knew.The analyze them - likemylatefriend EdwardYang.He wasoneofthe
leftists
ofthetimewerevery puritanical; were
they nothing likeCarlos. directors with theclearestanalysisofglobalization and hisfilms
Cineaste:Thatwascertainly trueoftheMaoistsand mostofthe offer thesubtlest kindofanalysis oftheseevents.
Trotskyists. You,on theotherhand, havedescribed yourself as Cineaste:It seemstomethatIrmaVepwasyourfirst filmthatdealt
sympathetic tothe"libertarian "
left. withthisdynamic - in termsofthenarrative's concern withthe
Assayas:Yes,butthey werea tinyminority atthattime. interpénétration ofAsianandEuropean culture.
Cineaste: When youspoke ofthe"libertarianleft,"I suppose youmeant not Assayas:Yes,it'smyfirst transnational film.
theSituationists, butalsotheanarchists andthecouncil communists.Cineaste:Yourearly toputitsimply, " French
only filmswere, very
Assayas: Yes, yes,yes, of course, but, before I beganreading Assayas:They were French-language films and defined, toa certain
Situationist literature, I hadbeeninfluenced byanarchist groups, extent, bythecontours ofindependent Frenchcinema - post-New
whichwerealsopartofthehistory ofFrench leftist politics. On top Wave,post-Bressonian: whatever. ButI've alwaysbeeninspired by
oftheOdeonTheatreduringMay'68,youhad theblackflagof dialogwithothercultures. Thiselement wasjustnotpresent inmy
anarchism aswellas theredflag.That'sbeenlargely forgotten, butit moviesuntilIrmaVep.
wasanextremely important element. Cineaste:With films suchas demonlover andIrmaVep,itseems as if
Cineaste:DannyCohn-Bendit wasobviously ananarchist. youwanted touseriffs ongenre cinema toexplore globalization.
Assayas: Of course.You had twostrains - theAnarchist Fed- Assayas:I wantedto moveoutofFrench filmmaking. I wastrying
eration,theold-styleanarchists, and thentherewas theORA to experiment and explorea newglobalizedspacein cinema - a
(AnarchistRevolutionary Organization), of
comprisedyounger left-liber- space that was not available to filmmakers until recently. When I
tarianactivists. Assoonas I wasacquainted withtheSituationists, I madeBoarding Gate , I madea filmthatwasshotpartially inFrance
understood thatthiswaswhatI waslooking forandconcluded that andpartially in Asiafeaturing an Italianactress andan American
itmadethepositions ofthesmallanarchist groups obsolete. actor.AndI'vealways beeninterested ingenre elements.
Cineaste:In an interview yougave discussing Debordiwork, youcall Cineaste:ButSummer Hoursdealswithglobalization in an almost
hisfilmsboth"political andpoetic " statements.
Although Carlosisfar Renoiresque manner.
removed fromDebordiavant-garde esthetic, wouldyoulikeit tobe Assayas:Yes,butitdealswitha similar world; thesamethemes have
discussedina similar manner? had an impact onsocieties ona moreintimate level.ThenewspaceI'm
Assayas:I wouldcertainly notcompare mypolitics to Debord's.I defining whenmaking demonloverorBoarding Gatealsoaffects people
think he'sa genius, andultimately oneofthegreatpolitical thinkersintheir daily lives,notonlyintheir workandintheir fantasies. ■
ofhiscentury. I'm a filmmaker and I dealwithfiction. ButI'm
certainlytryingto makemoviesthatdeal withsome sortof EndNotes:
representation ofthemodernworld,whichis connected to some 1Yallop, David. Tracking the TheSearch
Jackal: for , theWorld's
Carlos MostWanted
sortofphilosophical andpolitical worldview.AndI tryto createa Man(Random House, 1993).
poeticwayofdealing withreality,whichis whatDebordwasalways 2 Themysterious "Khalid" wasCarlos'ssecond incommand during theOPEC
interestedin.ThegreatlessonofDebordis that,as wellas beinga hostage operation. Anis NaccachewasWadie Haddad's trusted
confidante, and,
accordingtohis"bio" onTheSundance Channel (whichbroadcastAssayas'sfilm),
greatpolitical analyst, he was a great writer and artist.The sharpness aswell asmany other wasinstructed
ofhispolitical
sources, byHaddad tokeeptabs onCarlos. As
analysisis verydeeplyconnected to theprecision of Assayas statesinthis interview,manyhave concluded that "Khalid"
wasNaccache's
hisstyle.Thereareveryfewwriters ofhiserawhoemployed such nom deguerre, http:www.sundancechannel.com/carlos/profiles/anis-na
crystal-clear
language. Itsortofreminds youoftheimportance ofstyle. 3Follain, John. Jackal:TheCompleteStoryofthe Legendary Terrorist the
, Carlos Jack-
Cineaste: Ofcourse, youspent sometime working atCahiers ducinéma, al(Arcade Publishing,2000).
a publication that,during a Maoistperiodbefore youarrived, reviled
thrillers
political andfavored a morereflexive type ofpolitical cinema. Carlos isdistributed byIFCFilms, www.ifcfilms.com.
22 CINEASTE,
Winter
2010

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