“It is true that, more often than not, women are objectified in

the dastan.”

Nazrul Hassan, Fawad Khan & Syed Meesam Naqvi

Interview by Ally Adnan

Graduates of the National Academy of Performing Arts (NAPA), and students of

the revered Zia Mohyeddin, Nazrul Haasn, Fawad Khan & Syed Meesam Naqvi are

the leading proponents of dastangoi in Pakistan. In an exclusive interview for

Newsline, the three young thespians talk to Ally Adnan about the history,
evolution and revival of dastangoi, their work in the field, and the elements of
the art form.
1. What is Dastangoi?

Fawad Khan: Dastangoi is the oral tradition of storytelling. The word itself is
a compound of two Persian words, dastan and goi, and means telling a story.
A dastan may be written over years, created overnight, or composed by
combining existing stories but it is always crafted to be told orally in a series
of sittings. A novel is written to be read, a play is written to be performed
and a dastan is written to be told to a live audience. Dastangoi does have
elements of theater, and sometimes those of singing and other performing
arts, as well, but is essentially the art of telling stories orally.

2. How do you define dastan?

Fawad Khan: A dastan is a long, expansive and elaborate tale that tells
numerous interlinked stories of heroism, romance, magic and adventure,
incorporating both prose and poetry. It is rendered orally and has four
essential elements: razm (battle), bazm (soirees), sahiri (magic), and ayyari
(trickery).

3. What is the difference between a dastan and a qissa?

Nazrul Hassan: Dastan and qissa, both mean “story,” linguistically, and are
traditional narrative forms. There is little distinction between the two today
but the two genres are, in fact, different. Dastan has Persian roots whereas
qissa has Arabian roots. A dastan is typically longer than a qisaa and, in fact,
consists of several qissas. A dastan must always have the four essential
elements that Fawad mentioned but it is not necessary for a qissa to have
the elements. Most importantly, a dastan is crafted specifically for narration
whereas this is not always true for qissa.
4. What is the history of dastan?

Syed Meesam Naqvi: The genre of dastan originated in medieval Persia. Folk
story-tellers contributed to the evolution, development, spread and
popularity of the genre. The dastan came to the Indian subcontinent with
the arrival of rulers who spoke Persian and included dastangos (professional
story-tellers) in their entourages. The story-tellers practiced their art in
courts, in private soirees and in public gatherings. Over time, the genre
became very popular in the region and came to be practiced in many
languages and not just in Persian. It was at its peak in the nineteenth century.

5. A dastan has four essential elements – razm (battles), bazm (soirees), tilism
(enchantments), which you referred to as sahiri (magic), and ayyari
(trickery). How are these woven in the story?

Nazrul Hassan: The four elements are not really woven into the story but
form the structure upon which a dastan is constructed. Tilism and Sahiri refer
to the same element. Principally, the stories do not have any cultural,
political, religious or intellectual purpose. The goal is to celebrate the art of
storytelling by telling interesting, fantastic stories expertly and holding the
attention, interest and curiosity of listeners for extended periods of time.
The four elements were used by dastangos to assert their artistic authority
and to keep listeners engaged, entertained and inquisitive. A successful
session of dastangoi always had listeners asking, phir kya hua (what
happened next)?

6. The story of Amir Hamza has always dominated the world of dastan. Why?

Syed Meesam Naqvi: Persian storytellers brought a lot of interesting dastans

to the subcontinent but the story of Amir Hamza was the one that found
lasting popularity in the region. It is difficult to pinpoint the reason for the
 story’s dominant status amongst other dastans but I would venture to say

that the simple, linear structure of the story has contributed to its popularity.
The dastan is easy to follow and understand. It has a valiant hero as the
central character. The villains are devious and the females enchanting. The
eighteen-year period that Amir Hamza spends amongst deos (demons), jinns
(djinns) and paris (fairies) in the land of Qaaf adds an enchanting element of
fantasy to the tale. Finally, the story has a satisfying and clear resolution. The
oral tradition of telling the Amir Hamza story can be traced back to the
fifteenth century - and according to some scholars, the eleventh – in the
region. It continues to be the most popular of dastans.

7. How was Indian cinema influenced by dastan?

Fawad Khan: In its early days, Indian cinema featured a lot of elements that
are also found in dastans. Brave heroes, beautiful heroines, devious vixens,
funny young men, and wicked villains who have always been staple
 characters in dastans are ubiquitous in Indian films. The battle between good
and evil, and the eventual triumph of the righteous, has been the subject of
a large number of films.

Nazrul Hassan: It is tempting, and convenient, to exaggerate the influence of

dastan on cinema because a lot of the elements Fawad mentioned are also
found in ancient Hindustani theatre as far back as the third century. The
subject merits serious study and research but the truth may never be known.
Intezar Hussain Sahib famously said, “kahaniyan awara hoti hain (stories are
bohemian).” It is almost impossible to determine their roots.

Syed Meesam Naqvi: It is similarly impossible to determine the specific

effects of dastan on Indian cinema.

8. How did the oral tradition of dastan transform into printed work?

Nazrul Hassan: The dastan was very popular in the nineteenth century and a
number of people felt that the stories would work well in printed form. The
goal was to preserve the tradition and to cash in on its popularity. Fort
William College, Calcutta, published the story of Amir Hamza in Urdu in the
beginning of the nineteenth century. In 1881, Munshi Nawal Kishore
founded the famous Lucknow Press and started publishing dastans. In 1881,
he employed the services of three dastangos, Muhammad Husain Jah,
Ahmed Hussain Qamar, and Sheikh Tasadduq Hussain, to work on
transcribing the complete stories of Amir Hamza. The result was a set of
forty-six books that was published in early twentieth century.

9. Does the dastan have a social, cultural or religious purpose?

Fawad Khan: I may get into some trouble with some scholars but I believe
that the dastan has never had a social or religious purpose. They were a part
 of our cultural fabric for a very long time. Indeed, a lot of cultural values we
hold dear today were demonstrated and promoted in dastans. The goal of
the dastan has always been to entertain listeners by transporting them to a

fantastic world inhabited by valiant heroes, beautiful princesses, lovely

fairies, wicked magicians, clever villains, and alluring ladies. The attention,
interest and engagement of listeners – and no social or religious purpose –
sustained the dastan. The heroes were Muslim and they fought the kufaar
(infidels) but these were not Islamic wars. They represented the fight
between good and evil.

10. The dastans, thankfully, do not feature fundamentalist Islam. In fact, the
depict a very unorthodox form of Islam.

Fawad Khan: They sure do. Muslim men in dastans like to drink, listen to
music, enjoy sex, appreciate dance and spend a lot of time in the company
of beautiful women.
 A few passages in some dastans are excruciatingly detailed in their
description of sexual encounters. In one hilarious encounter, the Muslim
hero exclaims, “kafir jadugarni ko Islam qabool karna ho ga (the infidel
enchantress will have to accept Islam),” just before copulating because he
cannot have sex with a non-Muslim.

11. A few dastangos claim to have promoted Islam in their dastans.

Fawad Khan: Yes, they do but the claims are hollow. They made such claims
to promote their dastans.

I may have to beg forgiveness by holding the feet of scholars like Ajmal Kamal
Sahib for saying so but I do believe that the dastan has never had a religious
or a social purpose.

12. The dastan has been criticized for the sexual objectification of women. Is the
criticism fair?

Syed Meesam Naqvi: It is true that, more often than not, women are
objectified in dastans but the criticism cannot and should not be used to
dismiss one of our most import art forms. Yes, women are portrayed as
beautiful, attractive and subservient to men in dastans but there are dastans
where female characters are capable, fearless and intelligent. In Tilism-E-
Hosh Ruba, Mahrukh leads a battalion of soldiers, shoulder to shoulder with
men, and prevails. She is a brave woman with a lot of substance.

It is easy to make accusations of sexism but the topic requires serious study
and scrutiny. Beauty and wisdom in females are not mutually exclusive. A
woman can be both very good-looking and very intelligent. One must also
look at sexism in any story in context of the sensibilities of the time when
the story was originally told.
 There is rampant objectification of women in the Mahabharata. Does that
mean one should criticize and dismiss the Sanskrit epic? Shakespeare
objectifies women in the Taming of the Shrew and engineers an end where
patriarchy prevails. Does that make Shakespeare’s comedy unimportant?
The narrator of Alif Laila (A Thousand and One Nights), Scheherazade, is
female but the stories she tells often objectify women. So, yes, women are
objectified in dastans but declaring the form sexist and dismissing it is
irresponsible, reckless and unfair. Sexism and sexual objectification are
serious subjects not appropriate for superficial analyses and easy
conclusions.

13. The world of dastans is a parallel one full of fantasy, marvel and the
supernatural. Is the dastan, then, essentially escapist?

Nazrul Hassan: A dastan is certainly not an Ibsen play but it is not an

essentially escapist genre either. It is an accurate, often very detailed,
reflection of the culture, society and values of a time in history. It may have
some elements of escapism – and that is fine – but, for the enlightened and
initiated listener, it does allow an opportunity to study the moral, social and
cultural fabric of the time and region in which it is set.

14. The first Mughal Emperor, Babar, described the Hamzanama as "one long
far-fetched lie; opposed to sense and nature." His grandson, Akbar,
fortunately enjoyed the dastan and commissioned a momentous illustrated
manuscript that took fourteen years to complete. Was Babar completely
wrong in his description of Hamzanama?

Nazrul Hassan: Wallahu Alam (God knows best)!

Fawad Khan: It is a matter of personal taste. I believe he was wrong.

 Syed Meesam Naqvi: After reading a number of dastans, I can say, “kahani
aisi jhooti bhi nahin, baat aisi meethi bhi nahin (the story is not that full of
lies, the subject is not that sweet either).”

15. Was Dastangoi originally a form of entertainment reserved just for the
aristocrats, or did commoners have access to it as well?

Syed Meesam Naqvi: No. There

was never a period in time when
the dastan was reserved
exclusively for royalty and
nobility. It was originally a folk
tradition available to everyone.
Dastangos used to tell stories on
the stairs of Jamia Masjid. Coffee
Houses in Iran were known for
Dastangoi sessions. Traveling
storytellers narrated dastans to
commoners in parks and on
street corners. The dastan is not
tainted by elitism seen so often
in other art forms.

16. Which dastans are considered to be the best representatives of the genre,
and why?

Fawad Khan: I would say that Dastan-E-Amir Hamza is the best

representative of the genre.
17. You are not very fond of Mir Amman’s Baagh-O-Bahar?

Fawad Khan: Not at all. In fact, I don’t even consider it a dastan. It was
written to help the British learn Urdu and not to be told to groups of
listeners.

18. Dastans are known for their rich, ornate and elaborate language. Indeed,
latafat-e-zaban (refined quality of language) and fasahat-e-bayan (eloquent
quality of description) are important features of dastan. Does the florid –
and now archaic - language add to the charm of dastans or does it make the
art form more esoteric?

Syed Meesam Naqvi: The language of the dastan is the genre’s biggest
strength. It makes the dastan charming, attractive and enjoyable. A dastan
that lacks in latafat-e-zaban and fasahat-e-bayan is not a dastan at all. The
magic is in the language. The language used by Shakespeare is archaic but
that does not make his works esoteric. The same is true for the dastan.

19. What is the reason behind the recent increase in popularity of Dastangoi
both in India and in Pakistan?

Syed Meesam Naqvi: I think the main reason is the beauty of the language
of the dastan. As I said earlier, the magic of the dastan lies in the language.
The finest example of language can be found in the dastan; no other genre
comes close. Every single sentence in a dastan is meaningful, well-
constructed and musical. The use of metaphor and simile is amazing.
Qualifications are florid and descriptions elaborate. Dastan is poetry in
prose. I think people are fascinated by the language of the dastan.
20. Dastangoi was at its peak at the turn of the nineteenth century and is said
to have died with the anonymous death of its last great practitioner, Mir
Baqar Ali, Delhi in 1928. The oral tradition has seen a revival in recent years
but current-day dastangoi does not have verifiable links to the original form.
The revived art form may be nothing like the one practiced more than a
century ago. Is this, then, more a re-invention than a revival of dastangoi?

Nazrul Hassan: It can be said that it is re-

invention because very little
documentation is available about the
style, tenor and craft of the original
dastangos. A single audio recording of
Mir Baqar Ali is available but it is brief
and not of good quality. It does not shed
much light on the topic. It can, however,
be said with certainty that the original
dastangos had great command over
language, tremendous histrionic ability
and a very productive imagination.
Capable dastangos of our time embody
those very characteristics.

21. Other art forms of the region, such as music and dance, do not have much
documentation either but have been preserved with remarkably well by the
process of handing down knowledge orally from one generation to the next.

Nazrul Hassan: That is true and, for that reason, I do not believe that the
manner in which dastan is told today is not very different from the original
and authentic form. However, there was a break in the tradition of dastangoi
in the twentieth century. Music and dance never experienced such a break.
22. Is dastangoi a part of Islamic or of South Asian culture?

Syed Meesam Naqvi: South Asian culture.

23. The Harry Potter series of seven novels by British author J. K. Rowling appear
to meet all the fundamental requirements of the genre. Is it a dastan?

Fawad Khan: Not really. It does have the elements and constituents of a
dastan but it was written to be read and not narrated. Ergo, it is not a dastan.

24. Does it bother you that Pakistani youth today is far more familiar with Harry
Potter than with Amir Hamza?

Fawad Khan: It bothers me. In fact, it makes me angry but I find it very
difficult to blame our youth. Parents, teachers, the media, and the
government need to promote our own culture so that Pakistani youth
becomes acquainted with the rich cultural traditions of the region.

25. Can dastans be made into compelling films with the reach, expanse and scale
of, say, the Harry Potter movies?

Nazrul Hassan: Absolutely and they should.

Fawad Khan: In the hands of the right filmmakers, and with sufficient
budgets, tremendous films can be made using our dastans as the bases.
26. The three of you are professionally trained actors. Does the training help you
in dasatngoi?

Nazrul Hassan: Yes, it does. As professional actors, we don’t have stage fright
and are comfortable in front of live audiences. We know how to project our
voices. We know the techniques used to get into character. And, most
importantly, we have learnt how to memorize long sections of texts.

27. One of the attributes of good dastangos used to be their ability to improvise,
expand and modify stories, on the fly, based on the taste, mood and interest
of their listeners. In fact, Abdul Halim Sharar defined it as the art of
extemporaneous composition. You have painstakingly memorized rather
long passages of famous dastans. Does the effort, albeit commendable, limit
your ability to improvise, create and extemporize during dastangoi sessions?

Syed Meesam Naqvi: Yes, we are

limited in our ability improvise,
create and extemporize during
dastangoi sessions because we try
to preserve the integrity of the text.
The language of dastans is very
ornate and elaborate. It is not easy
to extemporize and maintain the
quality of language at the same
time during a dastangoi session. We
do add a word, or a sentence, here
and there, every now and then, but
extensive extemporization is out of
the realm of our abilities at this
time. Fortunately, we are students
and still learning. We will get there
one day.
28. A career in show business has recently become a viable one in Pakistan.
Actors, more than anyone else, make more money than they have ever been
able to in the past. Do dastangos do well financially?

Nazrul Hassan: No, they do not.

Fawad Khan: The money that is flooding the world of show business in
Pakistan today has not yet made its way to dastangos.

Syed Meesam Naqvi: We do well – sufficiently well, to be precise – financially

because we do a lot more than dastangoi. We work as actors both in
television and in the theater. We write. We assist directors and work in films.
We direct plays. We tell stories, do voiceovers in television commercials, and
make audio books. It is not possible to have a viable career in dastangoi in
Pakistan today. A dastango needs to do more than just dastangoi to make
both ends meet.

29. The three of you are variously involved in acting, directing and work in the
theater, cinema and television. How and why do you make time for
dastangoi?

Nazrul Hassan: We make time for dastangoi by not wasting it on worthless

activities and by never sleeping a full eight hours.

Fawad Khan: We do it because we love the language of dastans, dastangoi

helps us grow as actors, and we want to do our part in preserving our cultural
heritage; but, more than anything else, we do it because we like telling
stories.

Syed Meesam Naqvi: And, of course, we do it because dastangoi allows us

to hang together and perform with each other.
30. The three of you are close friends. How does friendship, or good chemistry,
if you will, between members of a dastangoi ensemble affect the craft?

Syed Meesam Naqvi: I think we would not be half the dastangos we are if it
were it not for the trust, love and fondness we have for each other. We
support each other during our performances and never try to be bigger than
the ensemble. We enjoy working together and value the acknowledgement
we get from each other after a good performance. Good communication and
chemistry between dastangos in an ensemble is essential for success.

31. Actors enjoy being the center of attention whereas dastangos are required
to remain individually invisible while telling stories. All the focus needs to be
on the dastan and none on the narrators. Does this bother the actor in you?

Nazrul Hassan: It does not bother me at all.

Fawad Khan: We focus on presenting the dastan and not ourselves. That is
why this never bothers us.

Syed Meesam Naqvi: I don’t necessarily agree with your thesis. In my

opinion, an actor, especially a good one, is more invisible than a dastango.

32. The legendary Urdu scholar Shamsur Rahman Faruqi and his nephew, writer
and director Mahmood Farooqui, played significant roles in the revival of
dastan in India. Do you feel that the three of you have done similarly
laudable work in Pakistan?

Nazrul Hassan: Absolutely not. We have done nothing compared to the

people you mention.
Fawad Khan: It is not even flattering to be compared to Shamsur Rahman
Faruqi and his nephew; it is embarrassing. Shamsur Rahman Faruqi is a great
scholar who has done monumental work in the field of dastan. Anyone who
wants to learn about dastan, needs to study his works.

Syed Meesam Naqvi: You talk of great scholars. Our name should not even
be taken in the same breath as theirs. We are performers and students of
the dastan. Nothing more.

Ally Adnan lives in Dallas and writes about culture, history and the
arts. He tweets @allyadnan and can be reached at
allyadnan@outlook.com.