Student Representation Meeting

Minutes
Location:

Date: 20/04/2020

Time: 06:00pm

Attendees: First Years Members: Harshita Sharma, Heramb Verma, Aryan Ahmed, Aryan Singh,
Ayushi Verma, Kanu Chaudhary, Tarushi Sharma, Arpit Upadhyay.

Second Year Members: Aniket Mandish, Abhishek Kumar, Abhijat Singh, Dharmesh
Basedia, Tejas Jaiswal, Akash Raj Chauhan, Tushar Anand Singh, Pravesh Agarwal.

Third Year members: Aman Kumar, Prasoon Tiwari, Praveen Yadav, Gaurav Kumar,
Sanstubh Sonker.

Fourth Year Members: Shashank Pandey, Mrinal Pandey, Animesh Upadhyay, Harsh
Gupta.

Agenda items
1. Should 5th years be allowed to be a part of Executive Council?

2. Should 1st years be allowed to be a part of Executive Council?

Discussion

Shashank Pandey: Broadly there are two bodies

General body
Executive council
Different NLUs have used different terminology for them
Now few NLUs also have few more bodies for instance NLIU/NLS
where convenors of diff committee are also part of these bodies. (On
that later).
Shashank Pandey: Now I would like to initiate a discussion on the
topic of participation of 5th yrs in SBA since this topic was raised in
"ELECTION" group and few were of the opinion that 5th yr should not
participate in it.
Shashank Pandey: Try to discuss it in light of 5th yr as office bearers
i.e. President, VP, Treasurer etc.
Tarushi Sharma: So a lot of NLU's have a fifth year as the President.
And the vice president is either a 3rd or 4th year.
Tarushi Sharma: What is everyone's take on this so far?
Shashank Pandey: I am of the opinion that first, participation of 5th
yr is a must in SBA, second, President should necessarily be from 5th
yr
Animesh Upadhyay: In my opinion presence of 5th years is important
in SBA
Animesh Upadhyay: Agreed
Shashank Pandey: In one of NLUs constitution while talking about
eligibility for President it is mentioned that President should have
completed at least 8th semester of education in the college
(indirectly referring to President)
Shashank Pandey: *in BA LLB(hons)
Tejas Jaiswal: But what's the reason? Except the assumption that 5th
years are more "mature/experienced".
I don't believe there is any valid reason to differentiate btw 4th and
5th

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Tejas Jaiswal: I believe it must be based on ability to work or
demonstration of work except handed on to them on virtue of them
being senior
Tejas Jaiswal: It must be open to both 4/5th years so theres a bigger
pool to choose from(includes barring of reelection
Shashank Pandey: Well one that I would like to say is that we are
creating an organisation that will be reflecting interests of the entire
student fraternity in widest possible sense broader than other
committees. Now we have to remember that many committees have
their convenors from only 5th yr probably bcos of the reason of
nature of responsibility/work involved in that committee.
Shashank Pandey: Now it can be said that it bcos of the parameter of
experience involved in that committee. So I'll draw the same parallel
here. Experience in college as a whole. (Not taking into account their
ability since a 1st yr student can be more capable than a 5th yr. )
Tejas Jaiswal: 1. Reflection of interests doesn't have to come from
making the president, there will be sufficient representation of 5th
years in the SBA
2. You shouldn't equate committees to SBA because in committees
there's vested interests, people put in work for years to hold the
position, which wont happen here, because election.
There's is no plausible vested interest that _has_ to be there for a 5th
year that a 4th year cannot have.
However, if you push me to, on the comparative the decisions of 5th
wouldn't be affecting them, there's more at stake for a 4th year to
actively look for improvement than a 5th year because he has to stay
there in another year, the actions will directly affect them

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 Shashank Pandey: Also one of the argument given by the people
arguing for exclusion of 5th yr (in totality) was that they wont be
having a time to engage in the work of SBA
Shashank Pandey: For me the argument was unfounded
Tejas Jaiswal: You shouldn't exclude, there should be a privilege
handed at 5th year to become president.
I refer to the value of the post dependant upon the individual and not
their year
Tejas Jaiswal: Shouldn't be a
Abhishek Kumar: Agreed!
Shashank Pandey: I find the latter part of this argument quite
relevant (interest of 4th yr). But to make it more effective then we
have to bar such candidate's re-election. As desire to be re-elected
might affect her/his actions
Tejas Jaiswal: I dont agree with you sir assuming responsibility is
dependent on age here.
Tejas Jaiswal: No, re election is problematic, then the actions dont
flow from a place of genuine concern but now every action will be to
persuade people to get elected even if it goes against the interests of
the majority as a whole
Tejas Jaiswal: One term to give their best and not to make it
hegemonic
Tejas Jaiswal: Attempt must be to cut off every incentive to the
post except their commitment to work
Tejas Jaiswal: President shouldn't be a privileged post giving leeway
to incentives

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 Shashank Pandey: Well age is definitely not the criteria I was
referring to as there is hardly any age difference between 5/4th..
many of them are of the same age. It was strictly in the sense of
years of experience.
But I guess the intrst argument trumps the experience one
Tejas Jaiswal: Exactly. Thanks.
Tejas Jaiswal: However creation of the president's powers must be in
light of utmost humility and transparency, I'd say.
Mrinal Pandey: Guys I think before moving to positions of executive
council, first we should deliberate on participation of Fifth year
Mrinal Pandey: And non participation of first year
Shashank Pandey: Yes I guess we all agree that 5th yr is necessary
Tejas Jaiswal: Participation? As in should they not be even allowed
to be on the council?
Mrinal Pandey: Yes
Shashank Pandey: Yes
Mrinal Pandey: There have some concerns related to that
Shashank Pandey: This arg was raised in the same light in the
election geoup
Mrinal Pandey: I believe that they should take be part of the council.
However if somebody has some concerns regarding their
participation, they can speak up here.
Mrinal Pandey: Or we can move to non participation of First year in
the council

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Tejas Jaiswal: I feel thats problematic, if we directly make it
exclusionary, this signals that they're either not important enough in
decision making or assuming councils decision doesn't affect them
Tejas Jaiswal: Please add the most important questions on the group
description so everyone can get them as soon as they see the
message
Shashank Pandey: As student participation group we have to decide
on this with a reason as it this affects other group as well
Tejas Jaiswal: Right, so fifth years must be there
Mrinal Pandey: Let's come to first years now
Tejas Jaiswal: Also first years inclusion is contingent, for me, when
do these elections occur
Mrinal Pandey: Beginning of the session
Mrinal Pandey: July
Tejas Jaiswal: I'm not in favour of democracy, I'm making it clear.
I'm more in favor of technocracy
Mrinal Pandey: When 4th and 5th years come back from their
extended Internship break
Dharmesh Basedia: I think they should be allowed. In case we don't,
how do we endure their concerns are also taken into account while
taking decision ?
Shashank Pandey: Well I think they should be included but for the
second half of academic yr only i.e 6months
Dharmesh Basedia: Ensure
Mrinal Pandey: That'll be difficult to implement
Abhishek Kumar: That seems to be a better idea

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Dharmesh Basedia: ?
Mrinal Pandey: We can't have elections in every semester
Tejas Jaiswal: For them to have concerns they should experience the
college in the first place also if there is something relevant there's
always an intersection of their problems with higher batches
Mrinal Pandey: And what's the point of taking people in for 3 months
Mrinal Pandey: +1
Shashank Pandey: Well then other method is inclusion by nomination
Shashank Pandey: By faculty advisor or the patron
Tejas Jaiswal: Nomination by?
Mrinal Pandey: That'll be giving too much power to people who
nominate
Tejas Jaiswal: Oh please don't
Mrinal Pandey: Dude no
Dharmesh Basedia: What I meant was we just can't assume that
there will be intersectionality? If there exist a scenario, then what
other alternatives can there be was my question.
Tejas Jaiswal: You know sir how screwed that system is
Heramb Verma: +1
Tejas Jaiswal: They are not barred from addressing their complaints
to the council i believe. @⁨Mrinal Pandey⁩
Dharmesh Basedia: Then it's pretty good.
Shashank Pandey: That will be open for all
Tejas Jaiswal: I think that answers your question @⁨Dharmesh Basedia⁩

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 Shashank Pandey: But we have to exclude all possible options before
arriving ath the final decision
Tejas Jaiswal: Definetly.
Shashank Pandey: Other option is nomination by Executive Council
itself
Mrinal Pandey: Of course not
It's Just they're freshers. They will not have any idea about how the
college works. And they are prone to be influenced by their seniors.
Being member of the council they will definitely have some powers.
Tejas Jaiswal: Nominations will never be fair. Nepotism exists, thats
a truth.
Mrinal Pandey: Plus you really don't know enough in first year to take
part in college decision making.
Mrinal Pandey: I am not in favour of giving such power to executive
council as well
Tejas Jaiswal: Pushing personal relations down the throat of council
will become a norm
Mrinal Pandey: Nepotism hoga
Tarushi Sharma: I agree that its going to be too much too soon for
the first years, even if we do decide to let them be a part of the
elections after a month.
But then what other measures are we taking to ensure they have
some representation?
Tarushi Sharma: Its not fair to exclude an entire batch.
Dharmesh Basedia: +1

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 Shashank Pandey: What if a question is raised that student body is
not reflective of the interest of 1st yrs who are going to be
influenced the most (in terms of yrs) by any decision of the body?
Tarushi Sharma: Exactly.
Tejas Jaiswal: Niether the Council nor the president by the virtue of
regulations must have any interests in upcoming elections to ensure
their intrests lie in best of places for the college.
@⁨Shashank Pandey⁩@⁨Mrinal Pandey⁩
Tarushi Sharma: We cant just let them out of it.
Tejas Jaiswal: @⁨Tarushi Sharma⁩
Tarushi Sharma: That's general accessibility. I get it. Makes sense.
But I dont think it's enough
Tejas Jaiswal: They have a forum to address problems, exclusion will
mean they will not have power within EC
Tejas Jaiswal: What do you want then? I mean what's left
Tarushi Sharma: I think we should include them in the executive
body anyway.
Shashank Pandey: Practically yes
But theoretically they are included for entire 6 months
Plus it is their batch who is going to poll and send the selected no of
individuals so it wont be such a large exercise
Tejas Jaiswal: They're too inexperienced to have a power within EC,
which means votes for a policy and other things which will be
influenced by a senior.
They will be used as a means to an end by seniors, thats a truth.

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Tarushi Sharma: Their powers are going to be limited anyway.
Exclusion of an entire batch is a very extreme measure.
Tejas Jaiswal: If theirs no power given to them within EC then their
inclusion is a farce and tokenistic
Tejas Jaiswal: Limitation in what form?
Tarushi Sharma: I get that. You're right. Not that im justifying
tokenism, but my point is how do yoj ensure the legitimacy of a
council that is completely setting aise an entire batch
Tarushi Sharma: You* aside *
Mrinal Pandey: +1
Tarushi Sharma: If the first years dont have an incentive to be a part
of the council, I feel like we're going to ignore this entire batch.
Tejas Jaiswal: Getting them in either won't ensure that aren't side
lined, since they wont have powers within it.
Tarushi Sharma: Look at it from the perspective of a first year
Tejas Jaiswal: I agree your intution is rightly placed. But you have to
tell me what purpose will it serve.
Tarushi Sharma: I dont think it's fair to exclude them.
The chances of their interests coming up are lower.
We're going to end up frustrating an entire batch.
Mrinal Pandey: It won't happen Tarushi
Tejas Jaiswal: Exactly
Mrinal Pandey: There are other practical concerns as well
Mrinal Pandey: How are you going to elect someone from first year
Mrinal Pandey: Do you know your batchmates well enough for that
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Tarushi Sharma: Okay yeah I get that
Tejas Jaiswal: What are such interests?
If you're hinting towards Ragging Cell, i believe we can have it within
EC as well. We'll talk about it. But it in it self isn't big enough to take
the damage caused by their inclusion
Tarushi Sharma: I think elections and knowing them will be a
problem. That i get
Tarushi Sharma: But im not very satisfied with them being excluded
because its going to be problematic
Tejas Jaiswal: Alright then.
Shashank Pandey: Can we look at the "latter half option"
1) You know your batch to an extent to make a reasonable decision
by then
2) Thier representation will be ensured
3) Seniors won't have a sufficient time to exercise (if any) their
influence since that semester is shorter one
Tejas Jaiswal: You have to look where their is lesser damage. I don't
believe their will be a problem faced by first year within college
which is exclusive to them that _has_ to be solved from within.
Tarushi Sharma: Not just ragging.
What about them wanting to be a part of the decision making that
goes into things that will affect them for longer than the other
batches?
Tejas Jaiswal: Wanting them to do so doesn't mean they're capable
of.

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 Tarushi Sharma: I get the inexperienced part of it. And the problems
the voting process puts up.
But I still dont get how we make sure they're a part of the councils
decisions
Tejas Jaiswal: They don't have to a part in first year, rest of batches
are capable enough to take decisions on their part.
They will have opportunity to do so once they are in second year
Mrinal Pandey: The fact is that you really don't know enough in your
first year
Tejas Jaiswal: I know it sounds unfair but it's in the best interest of
all.
I'm still open to better reasoning
Mrinal Pandey: Agreed
Tarushi Sharma: I still have a different opinion. And I'd like us to
think about the legitimacy of a council that's ignoring an entire
batch.
But i do understand what you're proposing.
Uh does this then mean we include batch reps from the fifth year
though?
Tarushi Sharma: Because we can't have a council thats excludes both
the first and the last years. It doednt make sense to exclude such a
large chunk of people
Tejas Jaiswal: Yes 5th year will be included, as i believe is so far
discussed
Tejas Jaiswal: Tarushi i genuinely understand your concern and i
believe other mechanisms will be sufficiently laid for their interests
and grivience to be addressed.
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Shashank Pandey: So as I understand it is
Inexperience of 1st yr is the reason that they are excluded
Any other reason one wants to add?
Shashank Pandey: Yes. Now it is imperative that we devise one
Mrinal Pandey: Problem in their election
Vulnerable to influence from senior batches
Tarushi Sharma: Okay cool. Exclude them but ensuring they're still a
part through other means will be thoda difficult. We'll have to get
innovative
Tejas Jaiswal: 1.Inexperienced
2.Not enough understanding of their batch
3.Gullible
4.Their want to impress higher batches
5.Higher batches having a leverage to exploit them.
Tejas Jaiswal: Definetly we should do everything.
Shashank Pandey: I just want to ask
Does any other NLU also exclude 1st yrs from EC?
Shashank Pandey: So we can refer how they have devised other
mechanisms
Tejas Jaiswal: I don't think it becomes justified for them to be
included on this basis
Tejas Jaiswal: Every college has different power dynamism within
themselves especially their relation with first year. Things such as
ragging, etc play a significant role how interbatch interaction takes
place
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Shashank Pandey: I m not justifying it
Just want to see how they approached it (if they have).
And we hv few frnds in other NLUs so we can get the ground reality
Shashank Pandey: Yeah I get that... I know RML has very different
dynamic structure. Its diversity is also less.
Tejas Jaiswal: In our college, its a fact, 1st year in boys hostels don't
have a healthy relationship with senior batches. Chances of them
being targeted, exploited gets maximized within the hostel.
Tejas Jaiswal: They have to be protected and not made convenient
targets by seniors.
Mrinal Pandey: Just look at the constitution
Shashank Pandey: I did. I ws not able to recall that's why I asked it
Mrinal Pandey: Nah man
I've talked to people from other colleges
Same hi hai
Mrinal Pandey: In some places it is worse.
I beleive NUJS is one of them
Shashank Pandey: i know NALSAR also excludes but that's very diff
Tarushi Sharma: Aren't they even worse off/ more susceptible at the
hands of seniors, without any say in the decision making process? :/
Tarushi Sharma: How about having them as observers atleast?
Tejas Jaiswal: Exactly constitution must address the native problems
and not on basis of what other colleges have done
Tarushi Sharma: Tokenism only. But still a bit better because atleast
they're closer to the council and the decisions taken that way
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Tejas Jaiswal: When not a part they become irrelevant to seniors
which is better than being convinient targets
Shashank Pandey: Yeah I get it
But we have to remember we are devising a constitution and we can't
come up with this arguments when we are asked to justify our
decision by stakeholders
Tarushi Sharma: And this helps the batch become mpre experienced
as they come to their second year.
They'll have a better idea of how things work
Tejas Jaiswal: I know I'm saying this for the purpose of not taking
other college's constitution as a template.
Shashank Pandey: I guess now the only ques is asked by Tarushi
Should they be allowed to be a part of EC as "observers" ?
Tejas Jaiswal: Fair enough
But who will be observers?
Mrinal Pandey: Exactly
Mrinal Pandey: Does not make sense
Mrinal Pandey: Can't have the whole batch as observers
Tejas Jaiswal: One person from each batch? If you want experience
as metric for it then you have to make the entire batch observers
Mrinal Pandey: Anyway re-election will happen every year
Tejas Jaiswal: Tru
Shashank Pandey: Yeah exactly.
There is no logic in making them as observers

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Tejas Jaiswal: Or i suggest.
There should be an open meeting once two weeks/one month
Where the first years can submit their interests via
ballots(anonymous/with name), the meeting will deliberate upon
them and can take their words for it
@⁨Mrinal Pandey⁩@⁨Shashank Pandey⁩
Shashank Pandey: We can deliberate upon this when we start
discussions on meeting of GB and EC. I think.
Tejas Jaiswal: Fair enough
@⁨Tarushi Sharma⁩do you think this is a fair mechanism to include first
years
Shashank Pandey: Since points such as quorum, participation,
mechanism for calling the meeting etc will also need to be answered.
If anyone differs plz notify
Tarushi Sharma: Alright. Seems to work

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