The Roya Thread

Empty Mirror: here is the Deep looking session. I have been wanting to do this deep
looking for the last few weeks but I have not had time. It looks like I might get a
chance to focus on it the next 4 evenings (California time). I went through a gate of
some sort back in June. I saw through the illusion of a separate self (or maybe half
aw??), but I never saw the oneness.

Empty Mirror: So what is it that you makes you feel that there is separation here?

Roya: when I stop and look, I don't see separation. But that is not the experience in the
market place.

Empty Mirror: What do you mean by market place?

Roya: Everyday living. When the awareness of "I" not existing as a separate standalone
thing is not there

Roya: When this self is taken seriously/believed to exist

Empty Mirror: Ok. So let's look at this self that is taken seriously to exist.

Empty Mirror: What is it? What is this sense of self based upon?

Roya: Oh, words. What do you mean by separation?

Empty Mirror: No it is not based on words. Take a much deeper look and tell me again.

Roya: Tell you what?

Empty Mirror: Tell me what this sense of self has at its very core.

Roya: The non-extent self has nothing at its core. Beside that there is a sense of here-
ness.

Empty Mirror: Right!

Empty Mirror: The one thing that you know beyond any doubt is that you exist - because
you are aware of this sentence.

Empty Mirror: So you can say beyond any doubt "I exist" - but you are not sure what
you are - right?

Roya: yes. I don't know what exist; only that it is here

Roya: And everything is related to here

Roya: or relative to here

Empty Mirror: Ok. But when you say I, or think of self, you are referring to this
"beingness" right?

Roya: Here is always taken as body

Empty Mirror: Only because you see the body as something separate from this.

Roya: no as body but where body is

Empty Mirror: right

Empty Mirror: and where EVERYTHING is

Roya: no I see the body in it

Empty Mirror: correct. But let's look at this I that you are referring to

Roya: yes, where everything is but in relation to this body. To here.

Empty Mirror: Not in relation to the body - why in relation to the body?

Just because the body shows up here most of the time?

Empty Mirror: Actually not even most of the time.

Empty Mirror: A lot of the time at best.

Empty Mirror: The body only shows up when there is awareness of it.
Roya: yes, seeing it, hearing it, feeling it

Roya: smelling it

Empty Mirror: No - the body doesn't see, hear or feel. Only thought says that.

Roya: the only way anything exist

Empty Mirror: Nope.

Roya: ok let's see

Empty Mirror: Experience is not experienced by the body - the body itself is an
experience.
Roya: Would I be correct to say unless there is a thought nothing exist?

Empty Mirror: Well unless there is a thought, emotion, image, sensation, smell, taste, or
sound, then nothing exists - yes.

Roya: Yes, not experienced by the body. But body is seen, voice is heard, feeling is felt

Empty Mirror: Yes

Empty Mirror: So now let's go back to looking at what it is that you are TRULY
referring to when you say "I".

Empty Mirror: Please look at this very carefully.

Roya: Well, empty space

Empty Mirror: Well yes, but you earlier said a "hereness" - a sense of existence.

Empty Mirror: But that sense of existence is based, at the deepest level, on a knowing
that you are here.

Roya: Yes, there is this sense of hereness but I don't know if I call it I. I don't call
anything I after LU

Empty Mirror: And that "knowing" is the awareness that this has of itself.

Empty Mirror: It's very important to release any fear of the word I, so that you can
discover what "I" really points to.

It DOES NOT point to Roya.

Roya: yes, or body, or anything that I can point to

Empty Mirror: It's very important that you look closely at what this sense of "aware-
beingness" is.
Roya: ok

Empty Mirror: It is not a "thing" that can be pointed to.

Empty Mirror: At the deeeeeepest level. When you say I, you are referring to this sense
of "aware beingness"

Empty Mirror: Please take a close look and see if you disagree with me.
Roya: Ok, there is a big hesitation to it I even before LU. How do you say I without
identifying

Roya: to calling that I

Empty Mirror: You will see that by looking

Roya: How?

Empty Mirror: You have a mental picture of "I" as an individual, or a person. Remove
that picture.

Roya: Ok, and there is nothing to replace it with correct?

Empty Mirror: Just look closely at the core of what you ULTIMATELY refer to as I.

Empty Mirror: Correct

Empty Mirror: Later we will replace it with lemon-meringue pie if you like

Empty Mirror: So now. What do you see at the root of what you refer to as I

Roya: what experiences/understands/knows

Empty Mirror: Right!!

Empty Mirror: It is UNDENIABLE

Empty Mirror: Something experiences, knows, understands.

Empty Mirror: Now let's look at what it is. Let's see if we can find any separate thing
here that is doing that.

Roya: No I can not and also I can not find anything that is not separate that is doing that
either

Empty Mirror: Yes

Roya: I can only find things and that is not a THING

Empty Mirror: Agreed

Empty Mirror: So now let’s look at whether there is anything here that is separate from
anything else.

Empty Mirror: Can a thought be separated from the awareness of it?

Roya: Everything appears to be separate; would not be called a things unless it appeared
separate.

Empty Mirror: Can an image be separated from the awareness of it?

Roya: No, if there was no awareness of it would not exist

Empty Mirror: Yes they APPEAR separate, but are they? Let's look at a dream analogy.

When you see a table in a dream, is the table separate from the dream?

Empty Mirror: Correct.

Roya: no

Empty Mirror: Ok, so you can see that a dream is one seamless whole right?

Empty Mirror: There are no separate things in the dream - it is one dream with apparent
separate objects in it.

Roya: yes, only when I have awaken I can see that

Empty Mirror: Well this dream dreams itself.

Empty Mirror: This that you call a "universe" (of thoughts, emotions, sensations, people,
etc, etc) is one seamless whole - exactly like a dream.

Roya: As a matter of fact I only know it was dream because I am aware that it was all the
same fuzzy thing (dream)

Empty Mirror: Look at direct experience without any beliefs and you will see this.

Empty Mirror: And this is the same fuzzy thing - it only seems different because imges
are crisper, and it has more APPARENT "continuity".

Roya: Yes, what you say makes sense and I agree and yet that is not my experience

Empty Mirror: Yes it is. Take a look at direct experience again.

Roya: yes, and that is why we call this reality and present moment. That is how it is
defined to be

Empty Mirror: Where is the separation?

Empty Mirror: It is defined by thought only

Empty Mirror: Time does not exist.

Empty Mirror: Did you read the "driving to the airport" dream analogy in Vivi's thread
on Deep Looking?

Roya: In thought only. Past is little less clear and crisp and future is very hazy and gray

Roya: Yes, I did.

Empty Mirror: From that analogy can you see that the past is a present appearance of a
non-existent time - just like the future is?

Empty Mirror: What is the difference between being really drunk and being really sober?

Roya: Yes, time is only a concept we learn like space is a concept.

Empty Mirror: Both are waking states but the experience is different - perhaps a little
"fuzzy" in the drunk state.

Empty Mirror: They are just different experiences showing up. Just like sleep and
waking are.

Empty Mirror: Where is the separation in this, if there is no separation in a dream?

Roya: yes, I agree.

Empty Mirror: Ok, so there is no separation in ANY experience - drunk, sober, wake or
dream?

Roya: I need to take a 5 to 10 minute break

Empty Mirror: Excellent timing. I need to go and feed the birds and fish.

Empty Mirror: Wild ones - don't worry - I don't cage animals

Roya: Ok, I am back

Roya: Yes, when looking at it there is no separation (not a real one) in experience.
However when going through it, it is very different

Roya: Oneness is not about me agreeing that there is no separation in ANY experience is
it?
Roya: Either you have a lot of birds and fish or you were not joking when you said they
are wild

Empty Mirror: Sorry Roya. Got caught up in a long telephone call in the middle of
everything

Empty Mirror: You said: "Yes, when looking at it there is no separation (not a real one)
in experience. However when going through it, it is very different"

In what way is it different?

And you said, "Oneness is not about me agreeing that there is no separation in ANY
experience is it?"

No, of course not. There is nobody to agree with.

Roya: What I mean by agreeing is seeing now that there is no separation.

Empty Mirror: You said earlier that you could see that there was no separation, but it
wasn't your direct experience. What did you mean by that?

Roya: My experience is no different when I see that there is no separation than it was 100
years ago before I saw that. I guess I am looking for proof in my experience and I look to
see different behavior or something

Empty Mirror: Why would behaviour change just because something that was always
like this, is seen to be like this?

Roya: Are things different for you now than before you had the realization?

Empty Mirror: Things are seen from the perspective of the whole, so there is a different
way that "this" is viewed - but emotions, thoughts, sensations, etc, etc remain the same.

Roya: I know that one. I saw it when I saw through the illusion of a separate self. Things
should not change. So what is a difference between you and those who have not crossed
any gates?

Empty Mirror: The richness of the whole, and the depth of the whole are seen in
everything once the whole is seen.

Roya: Yes, ok, id there any effect as the result of this holistic viewing

Empty Mirror: Let's forget about expectations for now.

Roya: Ok, I have not seen the whole. I can logic my way there but I don't see it
Empty Mirror: Let's just look at this idea of separation that remains. Do you think it's
possible that you imagine separation because you believe that there are others having
their own experiences?

Empty Mirror: Ok, but you can see a dream as a seamless whole right?

Roya: maybe. test me

Empty Mirror: Well do you believe that there are experiences happening to "others", that
you are unaware of?

Empty Mirror: Do you believe that there are others who are having thoughts, sensations,
etc, etc?

Roya: Yes (and that is wired)

Roya: I know others don't exist unless I think about them or see them or hear them but

Empty Mirror: It is weird because if you believe that then you have to believe that these
particular experiences belong to an individual - right?

Roya: That I believe is true for me. They don't exist for me. But I guess that is different
from their side

Empty Mirror: You are imagining that they have a side.

Roya: Wired because they can't exist. Nothing exist; not really

Empty Mirror: When Roya is interacting with "another" who/what is aware of it?
Look carefully here.

Roya: I guess I look at others by putting myself in their place and if I/Roya don't
exist,then they don't exist but I miss something here. every time I put myself in their
place, I also put here-ness there as well

Empty Mirror: Exactly - you are projecting the knowing of "this" onto things that show
up in/as it.

Roya: So if there is here-ness here then there must be here-ness there as well. At least that
is the assumption

Empty Mirror: Please answer my question above.

Roya: here-ness

Empty Mirror: Nice!!

Empty Mirror: Ok - let’s look at the nature of this "hereness" carefully now.

Please give me as full a description as you can.

Roya: So what you are saying is that there is no here-ness there?? This is a new thing for
me to see

Roya: Ok, I got to see that here-ness does not happen with this body. When there is an
awareness of here-ness body and all that goes with it is seen

Empty Mirror: No I am not. Please just look, and describe for me carefully, and as
clearly as possible, what you mean by the "hereness" that is aware of any conversation
that Roya has with "another".

Empty Mirror: Yes, but what is "seeing"

Roya: I don't know what is seeing. Why is this here-ness so Roya centric?

Empty Mirror: It is NOT Roya-centric. Roya is just a regular appearance in this.

You are not answering my question. Please just look, and describe for me carefully, and
as clearly as possible, what you mean by the "hereness" that is aware of any conversation
that Roya has with "another".

Roya: why does it not say "yes" when someone says John?

Roya: Ok, give me a sec

Empty Mirror: This is my prison cell. I ask the questions here

Roya: ok, here is where thought are heard/images seen, feeling are felt, sensations felt
that is not seen/heard/felt by others.

Roya: Here has a directional view (to its left, to its right, etc). That directional view
moves with the body

Empty Mirror: Yes, but describe this "here" or "hereness". What are its qualities?
Are they not a sort of "aware beingness" or a sort of "intelligent presence"? What are its
qualities?

Empty Mirror: No, the view doesn't move with the body. Stuff moves through "the
view". Check that out with direct experience.

Roya: That is difficult to see because I have not been able to see this body from the front
like I can see other bodies.
Roya: Yes it is intelligent. but that does not mean that it could not also be there with
others, why could they not have this same intelligence

Roya: I am lost in words now

Empty Mirror: Forget about imaginations about what others are seeing. Just look at
direct experience.

Empty Mirror: You don't see the back of your dream character - but that doesn't make
you believe that you are your dream character Roya

Empty Mirror: Please describe this "hereness" that is aware of EVERYTHING that
shows up.

It's very important that you look at exactly what it is.

Empty Mirror: Ooops. I have to go now. My playmate has just arrived home, and she
wants to play.

I am GMT+10 hours. Can be back on here for a few hours about four hours from now,
then it's bed time.

Empty Mirror: In the meantime please look very closely at the nature of the "hereness"
that is aware of everything.

Roya: There is always here sense to it. it hears/sees/feels/smells everything it is aware of

any object of existence. Itself can not be seen/heard/felt.

Roya: It always comes before anything else

Roya: More like it always is before anything else

Roya: Got to go to sleep. I'll look at this more tomorrow. thanks for the time tonight.

Empty Mirror: Agreed Roya. it can't be seen heard touched or smelled, but it knows of
all of those things.

So would it be fair to say that you are talking about an "aware beingness" or a "knowing
presence" if you prefer?

Empty Mirror: I have to go to bed now. So I will look for your answer in the morning

Roya: I have access for a short time; later tonight I should have a longer access. Yes, it is
aware of everything in its foreground and there is nothing that is not in its foreground
including itself; it makes knowing possible and that is why it can not be known itself; it is
NOT (does not exist) so everything else can BE; can exist (nothing, NOT A THING is
left out of this EVERYTHING, not even emptiness or nothingness). And IT is; here
always (i guess that is what you mean by being-ness).

Empty Mirror: This "knowing beingness" that you say "makes knowing possible". Do
you see that NOTHING ever shows up without the knowing of it?

Roya: yes,

Empty Mirror: Ok. And similarly, the knowing NEVER shows up "empty". The
knowing always only shows up with what is known.
Do you see that?

Empty Mirror: There is never the knowing without something that is known.

Roya: Let me see

Roya: I don't know what I don't know' is that what you mean?

Roya: how does something becomes known?

Empty Mirror: No, I mean do you see that knowing NEVER shows up without
something that is known?

Empty Mirror: That knowing and known are indivisibly one?

Roya: ok

Empty Mirror: Are you agreeing, or are you seeing?

Roya: I see that knowing and known are indivisibly one. What is turning my head is
"knowing NEVER shows up without something that is known".

Empty Mirror: Has knowing ever shown up empty?

Roya: something shows up and there is knowing that I don't know what that thing is. This
is still knowing. Yes?

Empty Mirror: Yes

Empty Mirror: You know that there is something as yet unnamed showing up.

Empty Mirror: Has knowing ever shown up empty? Can knowing exist without what is
known?

Roya: No. Even when there is no thing, there is knowing that there is no thing
Empty Mirror: When has there ever been knowing of no thing?

Roya: One can't be there without the other

Empty Mirror: Exactly!!

Empty Mirror: They are INDIVISIBLY one.

Empty Mirror: Can you see that clearly now?

Roya: dreamless state of sleep

Roya: Yes. The standard assumption is that the thing is always there and one only
become aware of it. However, in direct experience, there is no proof that it was there
before awareness of it

Empty Mirror: Dreamless state of sleep is only a presently arising imagination of a time
in which there was no knowing. There is no such thing as dreamless sleep. There is only
ever a story about it showing up in the knowing of the story.

Empty Mirror: Neither can be there "before" the other because they are indivisibly one.

Empty Mirror: Now let’s look at what is known by this knowing.

Roya: Ok. Let's.

Empty Mirror: We spoke before about the seamlessness of this "universe" when we went
over the drunk, sober, sleep, etc.

Do you remember that?

Empty Mirror: Do you see how a dream is one seamless whole?

Roya: looked quickly and didn't find it. Let me see if I can remember it

Roya: yes, dream is one seamless whole when it is seem as a dream

Roya: seen as a dream

Empty Mirror: What is the difference between being really drunk and being really sober?

Empty Mirror: Both are waking states but the experience is different - perhaps a little
"fuzzy" in the drunk state.

Empty Mirror: They are just different experiences showing up. Just like sleep and
waking are.
Empty Mirror: Where is the separation in this, if there is no separation in a dream?

Roya: yes, I agree.

Empty Mirror: Ok, so there is no separation in ANY experience - drunk, sober, wake or
dream?

Roya: There is no awareness of dream until dreamer wakes up

Empty Mirror: Ok, so there are no separate things in the dream. You couldn't subtract the
table from the dream as if it was a real separate dream object.

Empty Mirror: What is the dreamer of a dream?

Roya: the story teller; more like the story

Empty Mirror: A "dream universe" character shows up and then a "waking character"
shows up in a "waking universe". Where is the dreamer?

Empty Mirror: What is the dreamer? Nothing is telling a story except for thoughts.

Empty Mirror: The dream is the known is it not?

Roya: No dreamer, just a story of one. This gets confusing

Empty Mirror: Because you are imagining that there is an individual somewhere.

Empty Mirror: Ok, so a seamless universe shows up, and it is the known right?

Roya: Yes, thoughts put together create story

Empty Mirror: It is one seamless universe with no separately divisible parts - just like a
dream, and it is known of. Do you see that clearly?

Roya: Yes. I can logic that. I am not sure if that is the same as seeing it

Empty Mirror: Do you see that the universe is limited to whatever is experienced in this
moment, and that there is NOTHING in existence "outside" of what is showing up right
here, right now?

In the same way that when a dream character walks out of a dream room, the dream
character no longer has any existence "outside" there somewhere?

Roya: Yes. Yes. That I see.

Empty Mirror: And do you see that this experience is not a whole lot of experiences
making up one experience but is actually just one single seamless experience?

Empty Mirror: Just like a dream is.

Roya: Well that one is not as easy to see

Roya: Yes, not a whole lot of experiences. one experience

Roya: This one experience is got bunch of parts

Empty Mirror: Excellent

Empty Mirror: Apparent parts only. Just like a dream seems to have apparent parts.

Empty Mirror: So there is this one seamless "universe" that is known of right?

Roya: This is where I am stuck. I see/feel separateness in this experience.

Empty Mirror: Are you completely clear on that?

Empty Mirror: Ok, but forget about that for now. That's just something showing up in
this seamless "universe" right now.

Roya: I know intellectually that everything is part of this whole but I don't see it

Empty Mirror: Please quickly reread the past twelve posts Roya.

Roya: Yes, this one universe (all that is available through five senses right here, right
now) is all that is known in direct experience

Empty Mirror: What is the difference between seeing a "dream universe" as one
seamless thing, and seeing a "waking universe" as one seamless thing?

Roya: Believes?

Empty Mirror: You tell me.

Roya: Don't Kid take dreams to be real until they learn it is not?

Empty Mirror: You are asking the questions instead of looking for the answers that are
right in front of you.

Empty Mirror: Let's forget about the "waking universe" because there is no difference
between the two, so let's just look at the "dream universe" because you seem to be more
comfortable with that.
Do you see that a dream is one seamless whole? One seamless experience?

Roya: yes, I see it. But the dream character(s) does not.

Empty Mirror: Exactly!! The dream character sees NOTHING. None of them do.

Empty Mirror: So what you are saying is that the dream is seen by this "knowing
beingness" that you refer to when you say "I" right?

Empty Mirror: The same thing that everything in the "dream universe" is known by
right?

Roya: right

Empty Mirror: And we already know that nothing arises separate from the knowing of it
right?

Roya: well, by the character in the waking universe who pretends to be the know-er.

Empty Mirror: nothing is known by any "character". Please just answer the question.

Empty Mirror: The character is known. It knows nothing.

Empty Mirror: Please stick with the "dream universe" ONLY.

Roya: I knew you are going to say that. Yes, only knowing knows anything

Empty Mirror: Ok, so there is a seamless "dream universe" that is known. And the
knowing of it is not in ANY WAY separate from the "dream universe" right?

Roya: Yes, nothing arises separate from the knowing of it.

Empty Mirror: But you also know that "you" (not Roya - but the "knowing beingness"
that you refer to when you say "I") know of the dream, right?

Roya: right

Roya: I thought the "knowing being" and "knowing" are the same. The "But you also
know..." statement makes me thing I missed something What you said here "Ok, so there
is a seamless..." and "But, you also..." seem you are talking about two different things.
Empty Mirror: If the dream is not separate from the knowing of it, and you are the
knowing of it - then can you see that you (not Roya) are this dream that knows of itself.

Empty Mirror: "knowing beingness" is identical to "knowing"

Empty Mirror: no difference

Empty Mirror: The "beingness" part is an attempt to describe the "hereness" that you
spoke about at the start.

Roya: Yes if x=y and y=z, the x must be = z Let me see if I can see this all at once (that
x=z)

Empty Mirror: This seamless, self-aware "universe" is what you are. And Roya and I are
just appearances in you.

Empty Mirror: Whether it shows up as a "dream universe" or a "waking universe" there

is no difference.

Roya: Mind is not making the Jump. Trying to connect

Roya: so it can be seen all together

Empty Mirror: "Mind" is just a stream of thoughts showing up in the seamless self-aware
universe that this is / 'you' are.

Empty Mirror: It is ALWAYS seen together. Only thoughts say that it is not.

Roya: Yes, it makes sense; intellectually (if that means anything). Can logic it but Not
seeing it as a whole. I wonder if I something is being missed or just needs brewing

Empty Mirror: All that is standing in the way is the belief that there are other thoughts
that others are having, and other experiences that others are having.

Do dream characters have their own experiences?

Empty Mirror: Are there any "others" ANYWHERE in the "dream universe"?

Roya: That might also be in the way. But right now, I am stuck with this:

Roya: I was not finished

Empty Mirror: Nobody, and nothing anywhere has ever known anything. This self-aware
universe that you are knows of itself.

Roya: knowing of an apple arises with Apple so is apple self aware?

Empty Mirror: Is an apple in a dream aware of itself?

Empty Mirror: You are dividing things up again, as if they can be divided up.

Empty Mirror: The dreamscape is not "divisible".

Roya: To say dream universe is dividing. NO?

Empty Mirror: The dream ALONE is aware of itself as its SEAMLESS ONENESS.

Roya: Ok, I regressed

Empty Mirror: I only say "dream universe" because you think that there is a significant
difference between a "dream universe" and a "waking universe".

Empty Mirror: There is no significant difference.

Roya: This must be one giant never ending dream; or it must be stuck in a loop

Empty Mirror: Time is just an illusion showing up in the dream.

Empty Mirror: Have you read the dream analogy about driving to the airport?

Empty Mirror: In Vivi's thread?

Empty Mirror: Beginning and end are just time-bound concepts showing up in this
timeless oneness.

Roya: Ok we said this experience now is one experience. Doug barking, hands typing, lap
top and desk images, etc. Other things shows up later (I know that is only a concept).
Dream universe is limited, there are more than one dream

Roya: yes, I did. It made sense. But that can't be the only dream or it gets boring

Empty Mirror: Here it is again: Ok, this is a dream analogy of how all time is contained
in an instant Roya.

In the opening instant of a dream you find yourself speeding along a highway towards the
airport, because you're late for your holiday flight, because your wife couldn't find her
passport.

Now you will notice that this is just the opening instant of the dream, yet it contains a
whole "history" of being a person who is an adult, and married to a woman who left her
passport behind, etc, etc, and it contains "memories" of having the drama with the lost
passport, and it has a whole imaginary future too, in the flight and the holiday.

Do you see the analogy that I'm trying to draw?

Empty Mirror: There is not more than one dream.

Empty Mirror: What makes you believe that?

Empty Mirror: Your belief in "others"?

Roya: This others again. There must be a connection you see. maybe I am missing it.
Yes, maybe not others as in bodies but others as in other experiences. Oh maybe
experience of other Royas, the one coming in time (more like imagining coming in time).

Roya: something is not clicking

Empty Mirror: But at the start of the conversation you said that there were no others with
their own experiences Roya.
Let's stick with the dream analogy. Are there "others" with their own experiences in the
"dream universe"?

Roya: Did I say there were no others with their own experiences? I have to go back and
read that. Ok in case of dream, there are no others with their own experiences. That is not
where I get stuck. There are multiple dreams that is where I am stuck now. I see it from
the aspect of the waling character who has multiple dreams

Empty Mirror: So you see that dream characters have no experience of their own, but
you don't see that waking characters don't have any experience of their own?

Empty Mirror: Does "Roya" experience anything?

Roya: No. That would make her the hereness (the knowing being) and we know she is
only a thought an object

Empty Mirror: Exactly.

Empty Mirror: So if Roya is not aware of any experiences why should others be??

Roya: Thoughts about roya are experienced

Roya: Well, this is where I got mixed up. If there is here-ness (knowing being) where
Roya thought to be, then the conclusion (which I can see is a leap of imagination), is
same is for other characters.

Empty Mirror: But you just said that Roya wan't aware of anything!!!

Roya: Empty, did you see my post about time (the one before your last one)?

Empty Mirror: The knowing is not where Roya was. Roya is just something showing up
in the dream universe. Roya was never knowing anything. Roya was always part of the
dream universe that knows of itself.

Empty Mirror: Yes I did Roya.

Roya: At the moment the experience is that: In this experience this body which is
different from all other bodies (has no face/head) is where Roya used to thought to be.
Still seen as a specific location. Behind this body is where this "knowing being" feels
(sensed) to be

Empty Mirror: Sorry Roya. I am not sure how we are setting up times here. I will be
back on here in about five hours time )from now) for a short while and then back on
again about four hours after that.
Please message me when next you see me online. I can't keep up with the notifications. If
you message me we can connect and get chatting again.

Roya: I will let you know when I can be online for an extended period, I will say that in
my post; (for today that should be around 8 to 8:30pm California time; it is 1:40pm now)
. As I have quick time like this morning and just now, I just make a post and I don't
expect you to respond until the time we agreed. If you prefer, I not post until the time I
can be here to go back and forth with you for at least 1 hour, let me know. I won't posts
outside that time.

Empty Mirror: Would you please explain what you mean in your last post.

Roya: Do you mean this "At the moment the experience is that: In this experience this
body which is different from all other bodies (has no face/head) is where Roya used to
thought to be. Still seen as a specific location. Behind this body is where this "knowing
being" feels (sensed) to be" ?

Empty Mirror: Yes. I'm not sure what you are trying to say because it seems to
contradict other things that you have said earlier.

Roya: In an earlier post I said place where "Roya" used to be thought to be. The place is
still here, behind this body, it is not Roya, it is this unseen presence knowing which is
before everything else: it is what knows what has been seen, heard, felt, tasted but itself
can not be seen/heard/etc

Empty Mirror: Ok

Empty Mirror: Now take a look at "this place behind the body". What else is it behind?
Roya: What am I contradicting?

Empty Mirror: It seemed like you were placing it in the body.

Roya: Behind everything that comes and goes

Empty Mirror: Ok so it is 'behind' everything, but what happens if you turn around? Do
you see it?
Empty Mirror: Where is this 'behind' place?

Roya: no, then its behind again (behind the body), as I said before it is always the
background.

Roya: As I said before, This I-ness, Iam-ness, here-ness feeling has a location and body
(the one without a face and head) is its proxy

Empty Mirror: So what is seeing is always 'in the background' of something that
completely surround you?

Empty Mirror: What is its location if the body is just something in the foreground of this
'background' that you are?

Roya: yes; that is if I understand your question. It is even before itself, behind itself. This
behind goes on forever.

Empty Mirror: Why can the background not also be the foreground?

Empty Mirror: What is between the background and the foreground?

Roya: It is like the shadow as if sun was always shining at the face area.

Empty Mirror: What separates the background from the foreground?

Roya: Anything that can be seen/heard/felt/smelled/etc is the foreground.

Empty Mirror: I didn't ask that question.

Roya: "Why can the background not also be the foreground?" Well, when I try to see it, it
itself becomes the foreground for the background. It is always a step before

Empty Mirror: Please look carefully and tell me what it is, if anything, that separates the
background from the foreground.

Roya: Well that is how I define foreground, That which shows up, that which there can
be awareness of

Roya: They same way I can't show you a line where cheek ends and nose begins, or left
ends and right begins. I cant show you a line between foreground and background.
Foreground is creator of background and background is creator of foreground.

Roya: I Guess where are back at: the thing and knowing of that thing come together

Empty Mirror: Yes

You already know that there is ZERO separation. You already know that they are one and
the same thing. And you have already said why.
Tell me how you know it please.

Roya: I am seeing strong Identification with this body (which I know is in flux and itself
comes and goes). Do you see that?

Empty Mirror: Please answer the question

Roya: There is no separation that I can find.

Roya: Thought conditioning creates a lot of things that don't exist. And I expected to see
beyond that conditioning.

Empty Mirror: Because the 'foreground' is the known, and the knowing (which you refer
to as I) is the 'background'.
And you have already seen that the knwoing and known are indivisibly one. A thought or
image can not be separated from the knowing of them.

Empty Mirror: What do you expect to see except for what shows up in the
foreground/background?

Roya: Is it important to answer that question?

Empty Mirror: Yes

Empty Mirror: It is important to look at expectations?

Roya: But I don't want to

Empty Mirror: Why?

Empty Mirror: Would you prefer to do it on private message?

Roya: No, it is just difficult (takes too long) to explain in a way that would make sense or
I won't look like an idiot

Roya: I will try

Empty Mirror: Ok . And don't worry about looking stupid because there is nobody and
no thing here but you anyway.
Really!!

Roya: First of all how anything exist (feels real) I don't know. When I look deep, I see
that things should not exist but they do.
Roya: Well, I will look stupid to myself; that is the only one that counts anyway (pre or
post any sort of gate).

Empty Mirror: There are no things here, but this show exists because it can. It's just a
random expression of the richness and fullness of this that you are.

Roya: I do expect some obvious stuff to happen. For example, I expect not assume there
is a body/arm when I see a hand. Or not assume there is a body (let alone a whole person)
when I see only a head. If I don't see, it does not exist. Mind creates what is not there.

Empty Mirror: Why would conditioned thoughts suddenly change? They are the show.
The show is on automatic.

Roya: When I look at what I call my body, I want expect it to not feel personal. Not to
have the feeling "It is mine". I expect to look at this body and it not mean any different
than looking at another body

Empty Mirror: The body feels NOTHING? The body is part of the show in which
sensations APPARENTLY associated with the body also show up.

Empty Mirror: Conditioned thoughts about the body remain. Why would they change?

Empty Mirror: The difference is that thoughts are seen for what they are. Just another
part of this ever changing show

Roya: It is not the body that will feel different. There is still the feeling of ownership of
body here. If this body is fat, it means something different than when another body is fat.
It is still very personal which for me translates to attachment, identification as

Empty Mirror: But you are all that is here to think anything about any bodies Roya!

Empty Mirror: There are no others here. It only seems like it.

Roya: What?

Empty Mirror: And when others seem to look disapprovingly at the body, there truly is
zero awareness behind those eyes.

Roya: How about these eyes?

Empty Mirror: Typing error that can't be fixed on mobile

Roya: These eyes see this body with disapproval

Empty Mirror: There is zero awareness in ANY THING that is in the show.
Empty Mirror: The show which you ALONE are, is self aware.

Roya: Ok, I still believe in others; so I see them as bodies. I assume you don't, how do
you see others differently than you saw before

Empty Mirror: As bodies

Empty Mirror: But it is clear that those bodies are just characters in the show including
John's body.

Roya: Ok, my time is about over. Where am I with all of this?

Empty Mirror: You tell me

Roya: Not that I have to be anywhere specific.

Empty Mirror: Perhaps you should read through the thread and give it some thought.

Empty Mirror: You are here

Empty Mirror: You are this

Roya: Well, that one is not a pill I am ready to swallow

Empty Mirror: You already have

Empty Mirror: Look through the thread

Empty Mirror: It will percolate

Empty Mirror: There is nobody and no thing here but this that you are

Roya: It feels too arrogant to say I am this. I just went through some realization that I am
not who I thought I was; although I see lots of remnant of it around. It is not gone/dead
by any stretch of imagination.

Empty Mirror: It can only be 'arrogant if there are others

Roya: Also, I am afraid to let the ego get hold of the idea that it is the only show in town.

Roya: I don't want anything highjacked

Empty Mirror: Ego is part of the show too

Empty Mirror: Ego/conditioning has always been there. Growing like a tree. It is part of
the show just like trees are. Why would it change? Why would the show change?
Empty Mirror: It has always been like this.
You have always been this self aware show.

Roya: Ok, I have to go now. Thank you for the time you have spent today and other days.
I guess at the end is about the connection and showing up and I thank you for showing
up. I will read this thread as well as the one with Ingen and will post if something comes
up.

Neil : Roya - just wanted to say you have NOTHING to feel bad about for expressing
what you express. there is boundless gratitude for the work you are doing, the openness
in which it is approached, and the willingness to LOOK. Thank you for your inquiry, and
look forward to more

Empty Mirror: I echo Neil's words.

It was my pleasure Roya. Let me know any time you w ant to continue this thread

Roya: Statement: I still have not had time read your thread with Ingen Findes, I plan to
read that. I have a thought that I still need to see through the illusion of others as I did
with the "I". Just as as in with the "I", there are a lot of proxies (which by the way have
not been seen through), there are proxies for "other". Like your response when I
mentioned arrogance earlier in the thread.

Empty Mirror: Ok. And the question is?

Roya: Well, never mind with the question. It is not relevant.

Empty Mirror: Ok, so you say that you can't see through the belief in others with their
own experiences?

Roya: I can reason how they don't exist but in the moment from my reactions I know they
are taken as very real

Empty Mirror: And in a dream others are taken as very real, but that doesn't mean that
they are real

Empty Mirror: You are imagining that there is a meaningful difference between a dream
and this as it is now.

Roya: I can see past is bunch of images that show up now. I can actually see that.
However as the images get crisper and crisper I don't see them as images, they feel real

Roya: I can see how all the faces and places and people are just dead images that get
flashed
Roya: But the images that are referred to as present/now are not so easily seen as only
images (I guess I am not still enough to see them).

Empty Mirror: There is not a meaningful difference between them.

This shows up as dreamy fuzziness and we call it sleep, this shows up as 'wakeful'
fuzziness and we call it drunk, this shows up a self consistent story, and we call it the
waking state.

There is nobody dreaming, or getting drunk, or being awake - this is just showing up as
different experiences.

Roya: They number of frame per second increases and it is seen as moving and alive

Empty Mirror: It's always seen as moving and alive

Roya: Yes, that is how fast also used to be seen. Alive. But Now I actually see the flash
of images as images (not like a movie). I know this now is also the same but I don't
experience it like I do the past.

Roya: How past use to be seen

Empty Mirror: Well yes, they are images showing up in this.

Empty Mirror: You have no problem seeing that "others" in a "sleep dream" have no
experience of their own, but you can't see that it is the same in the "wakeful experience".
Why do you think that is?

Roya: They are not experienced the same way.

Empty Mirror: Of course they aren't, they are different

Empty Mirror: So is the experience of being drunk

Empty Mirror: the experience of hallucinating

Empty Mirror: this can show up as all sorts of modes of experiencing

Roya: I have never hallucinated illegally, just what I call life

Empty Mirror: It doesn't matter

Empty Mirror: Think about it. Look for yourself.

Empty Mirror: just because the modes of experience is different doesn't mean that
suddenly there become "real" others with their own experiences.

Roya: I could say it is more intense in "Waking state", or is so vivid that makes it
difficult to see

Empty Mirror: You are imagining that because a dream has less consistency it is a
significantly different experience. It is not. The difference is insignificant.

Empty Mirror: So what if the "waking" experience is more vivid that "dreaming"?

Roya: remember we were talking about dreams. I could see that about dreams to go from
there to this NOW is not so easy
Empty Mirror: Hallucinations are more vivid than the waking state - does that make
them even "realer" than the waking state?

Roya: Yes, less consistency. NOW is so consistent (higher frames per second) that make
it not so easy to see.

Roya: "So what if the "waking" experience is more vivid that "dreaming"?" The "SO" is
that it makes it difficult to stand back and see it as just bunch of images

Roya: ZOOM out, Get distance, etc

Empty Mirror: Wow. You had better never try LSD then

Empty Mirror: But Roya, can you not see that "waking" is just a more vivid experience
than dreaming is?

Roya: Also I look at a different place to see dreams and past that I do to see present
moment

Empty Mirror: Just because it is vivid doesn't suddenly make all others able to have their
own experience.

Roya: I can see past and dream with eyes close/ear plugged, etc. Present moment I open
eyes and ears

Empty Mirror: All that you are saying is that the experience is different Roya, you are
not explaining why you can see that characters in a "dream" have no experiences of their
own, but can not see that characters in "wakefulness" also have no experience or
awareness.

Roya: And I know it is not the physical eyes that see, physical ears that hear. However,
there is a different place/way
Empty Mirror: Nobody dreams a dream - this shows up as a dream and is aware of its
dreamy nature. Nobody is aware of a wakeful state, this shows up as a wakeful state, and
is aware of its wakeful state nature.

Roya: I guess it might be because, there is seeing/hearing/feeling/smelling/etc associated

to this body (Roya's Body) and it is assumed that the other bodies also
see/hear/speak/feel/etc which for me means they are able to experience (no
seeing/hearing/feeling/etc no experience)

Roya: The association of seeing/hearing/etc to the body is very strong

Empty Mirror: The body does not hear, sense, smell or taste ANYTHING Roya!!!

Roya: Even though I have seen that is not the eyes (subject) that see but that seeing is
happening. There still a very strong connection between the physical eye and seeing

Empty Mirror: The body is experienced along with those things

Empty Mirror: What is this "strong connection" if not a thought?

Roya: "The body does not hear, sense, smell or taste ANYTHING Roya!!!", this I know
but that is not the experience. That is why I was saying that one of my expectation
(true/deep seeing) is that mind stops making things up that are not there.

Roya: Yes, A thought that is believed.

Empty Mirror: Yes, that is an unrealistic expectation because thoughts have always just
done their own thing.

Empty Mirror: Is there anything believing anything Roya? Look carefully before you
answer?

Roya: well, that would imply time and a subject/object relationship. So in that I would
have to say no. But that does not remove my confusion. One day a thought "I am fat"
comes and it bring suffering (which I call believed), next day same thought "I am fat"
comes and brings laughter (which I call not believing) .

Empty Mirror: So there is just labeling of different experiences as "belief", and "not
belief", showing up in this then - do you see that? Think carefully about this.

Roya: Yes, I am trying to find prove that I have the realization that others or I don't exist
and I know from the gate that nothing can ever be proof of another thing. Everything only
proves itself.

Empty Mirror: The proof is in direct experience - look carefully and see whether this is
any different to a dream, aside from the "vividness".
Roya: Yes, I also saw this from Gate and forgot. Bunch of thoughts put together can be
labeled. Yes it is just labeling.

Empty Mirror: Is it absolutely clear also that nothing is labeling anything? Is it clear that
labels are just showing up in this?

Roya: Yes. Absolutely clear when I stop and look; like now.

Empty Mirror: Is it clear that nobody and nothing stopped to look?

Empty Mirror: There is nobody to kill - do you see that?

Roya: you are killing me.

Roya: yes, even the idea that is not seen is seen

Empty Mirror: This is always seen - even the idea that it is not seen shows up in this that
is always seen. And you are this that is always seen by itself.

Empty Mirror: Nothing in this can kill you because you are this.

Empty Mirror: Do you see that I truly am you?

Roya: " Is it clear that nobody and nothing stopped to look?", Yes, when I stop and look.
It is very clear.

Empty Mirror: I am showing up as this that you are.

Empty Mirror: What stopped to look?

Roya: Well, I don't tell people to pis-off

Roya: "Do you see that I truly am you?" No this I don't see. And this is used as proof that
I still believe there is an "I" and "other"

Empty Mirror: If you ALONE are this seamless show in which I appear, what else could
I possibly be?

Neil : Is there a belief that I is The Roya characer?

Empty Mirror: IS a dream character separable from the dream?

Roya: Yes, I and Roya are seen as just label pointing to what does not exist. Santa
Empty Mirror: If you ALONE are this seamless show in which I appear, what else could
I possibly be?

Is a dream character separable from the dream?

Roya: TO say I am this that shows up is resisted. Immediately there are all kinds of what
does that mean questions come up.

Empty Mirror: Well then let’s look at those questions. What does it mean?

Empty Mirror: There are no separate things here - there is just this one indivisible
seamless show that you alone are

Roya: Dream character is not separate from the dream. So I guess that implies that they
are the same. And since dreamer and dream are the same, then Empty, Roya and dreamer
are the same. What maybe standing in the way is are definition of what it means when I
you and I are the same. Just saying that can't be the same as knowing it in the bones
(figure of speech)

Empty Mirror: Empty and Roya are characters showing up in the show. Neither of them
experiences anything. Only the dream experiences anything. The only thoughts
ANYWHERE in this dream are the ones known by the dream that knows of the reading
of words here right now.

Empty Mirror: You are this show

Empty Mirror: You ALONE are this show that knows of itself - I am an appearance in
you.

Empty Mirror: I truly am an appearance in you.

Empty Mirror: There is nobody and nothing behind these words

Empty Mirror: Do you see this?

Roya: I see that this is the only show. I see that in this scene the Bodies that I call Roya
and other shows up. I can see that there is no one behind the words (actually I wonder if I
really see that because if I did, I might get scared; I panicked once when I saw that). It is
wired I both see and not see that.

Empty Mirror: The idea that something is not seen or seen is part of the show that you
are

Empty Mirror: Do you see that?

Empty Mirror: Do you see that you are not typing the words that seem to be typed by
Roya, and that there is nobody typing the words that you read from Empty Mirror: ?

Empty Mirror: Do you see that this is show that you are is talking to itself?
Roya: But there is a different feeling toward this body and another one. The feeling is
ownership (me-ness) about this body and its feelings/sensations come up but those same
ownership things don't show up for other bodies.

Empty Mirror: And do you see that all of what you said above is just a part of the show?

Empty Mirror: Look carefully now.

Empty Mirror: Very carefully

Empty Mirror: And please stop believing that the body has any sensations. The body
feels NOTHING.

Roya: Yes, I see that. Showed up just out of blue (when I ignore the images of a past that
show these hands did the typing; which are also part of the seen). I really think that
expectations might be in the way. There are thoughts like how come I don't have the
"recognition" everyone talks about (knowing being recognizing itself as this, or
something like that). I am still looking for proof, I guess. Persistent.

Roya: I've got to go soon.

Empty Mirror: There is nobody else here to have any recognition of anything. The only
one aware of anything is this dream that you alone are.

Empty Mirror: Do you see that?

Empty Mirror: Do you see that the idea that expectations may be in the way of
something are just part of the show that is always perfectly clearly aware of itself?

Roya: I still compare (their experience with mine). Which to me means I still believe in
others. I sound like broken record. I say I see and then turn around and say something
that contradict that. I am going to sleep on it.

Empty Mirror: In a dream the first person dream character may compare experiences
with other dream characters. Do those dream characters really have any experience to be
speaking about it?

Roya: Do you think I can guide at LU?

Empty Mirror: Yes, I think that you have seen through the imagined controller, and that
is what seeing through the I is all about
Empty Mirror: But seeing through the I, as you have discovered, is not necessarily also
seeing through the idea of others with their own experiences.

Empty Mirror: Why do you worry about that Roya?

Roya: "Yes, I think that you have seen through the imagined controller", I agree with you
about that. If there was an LU for seeing through imagined others, do you think I can
guide there?

Empty Mirror: You tell me

Empty Mirror: In a dream the first person dream character may compare experiences
with other dream characters. Do those dream characters really have any experience to be
speaking about it?

Roya: "are you askign a dream character to confirm you Roya ?", isn't that what happens
at LU, bunch of dream characters confirm another before that "another" can guide.
Regardless of what that "other" believes?

Empty Mirror: Do you see that you are this show that includes a story about someone
who thinks they need to wake up? But only the show knows anything about the story.

Empty Mirror: And LU and guides who all know things is also just a show showing up
in the self aware show that you alone are.

Empty Mirror: Do you see that the only existence that I have is words on a screen?

Roya: Yes, and there is fear.

Empty Mirror:
Fear for who?
The show?

Empty Mirror: Fear for this in which time and space and fear and joy show up???????

Empty Mirror: What could this possibly fear??

Roya: Yes, dream character becoming crazy. losing its mind.

Empty Mirror: That is part of this show that can never lose anything

Empty Mirror: There is no "mind" to lose. There are just thoughts showing up in this
show that you are

Empty Mirror: What could this self aware show, that you are, ever fear?
Roya: Oh I so wish I could let go into that.

Empty Mirror: You already are it

Empty Mirror: And in it the thought that there is something that needs to let go of
something shows up

Empty Mirror: Do you see that there is nothing here to let go of anything?
You are already home. And you always have been

Roya: What is it going to take? TO know that "You already are it'

Empty Mirror: You already do

Empty Mirror: Answer the question please.

Roya: TO be willing to stand alone?

Empty Mirror: You already do

Empty Mirror: You are all that is here

Empty Mirror: There is nobody and no thing else

Empty Mirror: Just this self aware show that you alone are

Empty Mirror: There has never been another life story anywhere, ever

Empty Mirror: You are this show in which a life story shows up.

Empty Mirror: Is there anything in this show that needs to let go of anything?

Roya: "Do you see that there is nothing here to let go of anything?", yes I can see. And it
is not easy to let go of nothing.

Empty Mirror: Do you see that the idea that it is not easy for something to let go of
nothing is just another thought showing up in this show that you are?
Roya: Yes. But does it work to say "I am this".

Empty Mirror: What are you? Please look closely now.

Empty Mirror: Who cares what the words are?

Empty Mirror: Just look

Roya: "Do you see that the idea that it is not easy for something to let go of nothing is
just another thought showing up in this show " Yes, I can see that and I can see the tears
and the resistance and the confusion and the backing away

Empty Mirror: And all of that is part of this show that you alone are

Empty Mirror: Do you see that there is nobody backing away from anything?

Do you see that all of that is part of this show that you have always been?

Roya: I don't even know why the tears are coming

Empty Mirror: Joy at self discovery

Empty Mirror: How did you ever believe any of the show?

Empty Mirror: Just got caught up in the wonderful aliveness and craziness of it all

Empty Mirror: The show became a show about believing the show

Roya: I still believe it.

Empty Mirror: Who believes it?

Empty Mirror: Who are you? What are you?

Roya: Know what I am not. Not sure about what I am.

Empty Mirror: Well look for yourself. What are you?

Empty Mirror: Nothing is hidden from you.

Empty Mirror: Nothing has ever been hidden from you.

Empty Mirror: So just look. What are you?

Roya: Don't know. I can't find myself.

Roya: I look and can't see anything I can call me

Empty Mirror: What do you find here?

Empty Mirror: That is because you are not a thing.

Empty Mirror: There are no "things" here. There is just one indivisible show.
Empty Mirror: So what are you?

Roya: Things, thoughts, images, words, movement, etc

Empty Mirror: There has never been another life story show anywhere, ever.

Empty Mirror: And all of that stuff is just part of one indivisible life story show. They
are not separate things - just like a dream table can not be separated from a dream.

Empty Mirror: There has only ever been one show ever, anywhere. This is the only show
there is ANYWHERE,

Empty Mirror: So what are you?

Empty Mirror: If you know of this one indivisible show, and knowing and known are
inseparably one, what could you possibly be?

Roya: I don't know what that would mean? How do I be a show?

Empty Mirror: Like this

Empty Mirror: What are you?

Empty Mirror: Nothing is hidden from you. Nothing can ever be hidden from you, so
just look.

Empty Mirror: What are you?

Roya: You are so persistent.

Empty Mirror: There is nobody here

Roya: Well you are a persistent no-body

Empty Mirror: You have always been this "life story" show - and the only one anywhere,
ever

Roya: Can I sleep on it?

Empty Mirror: Sure. Sleep well

Roya: But I say the words to to see it, maybe just playing.

Roya: I am this

Empty Mirror: And you always have been

Empty Mirror: Even time is just part of the show that you are

Roya: I feel gratitude

Empty Mirror:

Empty Mirror: There is nobody to be grateful to. I am just words on a screen

Roya: Thank you to you and Neil for showing up for this.

Empty Mirror: We had no choice

Empty Mirror: We are words on a screen

Roya: I had no choice either

Empty Mirror: This show that you are needs no choice

Roya: Good night.

Empty Mirror: Sweet dreams

Roya: I thought if I said "I am this" I would feel arrogant. But I feel humbled when I said
it now.

Empty Mirror: Beautifully put

Empty Mirror: Awe struck by your own infinite depth

Empty Mirror: How does this feel at the moment Roya?

Roya: Normal

Empty Mirror: As you always have

Empty Mirror: Are you clear on what you are?

Roya: If I say no, that is a lie. If I say yes, that is a lie.

Roya: clarity is not here

Empty Mirror: Clarity for who/what?

Roya: well, you asked the question

Empty Mirror: And I am asking you another one. Clarity for who/what?

Empty Mirror: Who/what is not clear?

Empty Mirror: What are you?

Roya: God, you are relentless.

Empty Mirror: I am just an appearance in you pointing you back to what you are

Empty Mirror: So what are you?

Roya: Today it felt like what has always felt behind me just stretch a little. But it is shy

Empty Mirror: There is nobody to answer to. This question will keep coming up until
you realise what you are - whether the words come up as Empty Mirror: text or whether
they show up as thoughts.

The question never ever goes away until it is answered.

I will leave you to read Ingen's thread now, but please don't leave without reporting back
tonight

Roya: It is does not have your conviction

Empty Mirror: There is nothing to be behind anything else

Empty Mirror: What is there to be behind anything?

Empty Mirror: Come back to this question when you're finished with Ingen's thread if
you like.

Empty Mirror: And don't imagine that there is someone here with any conviction or
awareness of anything. I am words on a screen.

Roya: There is confusion. And the knowing of confusion is not confused.

Empty Mirror: So confusion is showing up in the show that is never confused about what
shows up in it.

Empty Mirror: What are you?

Roya: Let's call this that shows up Santa Clause/God. What is the difference between
someone who is deluded in thinking that they are Santa Clause/God and the one that is
Santa Clause/God
Empty Mirror: Let's forget about any names. What is this?

Empty Mirror: Whatever you name it. It remains the same thing. A self-aware show.

Empty Mirror: And it is the ONLY show anywhere ever.

Empty Mirror: There has never ever been any other show.

Empty Mirror: You alone are this show?

Empty Mirror: The show NEVER feels sad. The show knows of sad feelings showing up
in it - along with the singing birds, laughing children, fingers typing, etc, etc showing up
in it.

Empty Mirror: So what if the show is called God or Santa?

Empty Mirror: Or this?

Roya: Mind tris to figure this out and it goes crazy

Empty Mirror: There is no such thing as mind

Empty Mirror: 'there is just a stream of concepts floating around in this show

Roya: Yes, using "this" did not fit in the question I asked

Empty Mirror: There is no person that can be deluded into believing it is the show
because the person is part of the show.

Empty Mirror: What are you?

Empty Mirror: Forget about everything we have said, and just look.

Roya: Yes, god, Santa Clause, "this", are the same

Empty Mirror: What are you?

Empty Mirror: The question "what am I?" NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER goes
away until it is answered.

Empty Mirror: Trust me on that?

Roya: Yes, it feels like a split personality. One time it is the character inside the show and
the next it is the watcher of the show
Empty Mirror: There is NO watcher of the show.

Empty Mirror: The show is self aware - the show knows of itself.

Empty Mirror: The show watches itself.

Empty Mirror: There can never be a split personality because there is nothing here but
the show.

Empty Mirror: If split personality shows up that is part of the one seamless and
undivided show that knows of itself.

Empty Mirror: What are you?

Roya: It is like when you first learn to drive. At first you have two hands and two feet and
two eyes and they are all used in driving. Later it becomes natural, the car becomes an
extension of you

Roya: You type fast.

Empty Mirror: All apparent separation is a part of the show that you alone are.

Empty Mirror: There is nobody here

Empty Mirror: I am an appearance in you pointing you back to what you are

Empty Mirror: What are you?

Empty Mirror: The question never goes away.

Empty Mirror: What are you?

Roya: I keep falling for the idea of you being there

Roya: I keep falling, keep falling,....... for ideas I know are not true.

Empty Mirror: A belief that there is another that is aware of this show, shows up in the
show. The show never "falls for ideas"
Empty Mirror: There is nobody that falls for ideas. Anybody falling for ideas is part of
the show.

Roya: Why is that question not intimate (here)? Why is "this" that you say is, keeps
asking others to tell it what it is?

Empty Mirror: What are you?

Empty Mirror: This is not asking others anything

Empty Mirror: There are no others. In this self aware show there is a character showing
up, and words on a screen showing up that's all.

Empty Mirror: The show never needs to ask anything about anything. It is simply self
aware.

Empty Mirror: What are you?

Roya: I don't know what I am

Empty Mirror: Well just look.

Roya: I know I am alone

Empty Mirror: You have everything at your disposal

Empty Mirror: So what is this that is?

Roya: what ever I am I am alone and always have been

Empty Mirror: So do you mean whatever this i,s it is alone and always has been?

Roya: all come and all go and I am left here

Roya: yes.

Empty Mirror: Ok cool

Empty Mirror: so when you say: all come and all go but I remain", what you are really
saying that the show is ever changing but it is a permanent show right?

Empty Mirror: The show is permanent but what shows up in it comes and goes. Is that
what you mean?

Roya: well, I used to see all that come and go as separate. I don't think that anymore
although I fall more for separation than not
Empty Mirror: What is separate in a dream?

Empty Mirror: What is separate in this show?

Roya: Yes, that is more palatable. show is permanent (at least so far), what shows up
changes. the fact that showing up happens is definite

Empty Mirror: Palatable to who?

Roya: What kind of a question is that?

Roya: who are you asking?

Empty Mirror: The show has no preferences for what shows up. So "it is more palatable"
for who?/what?

Empty Mirror: Nobody is asking anybody anything. Words are showing up in the show
that you alone are

Roya: This "The show is permanent but what shows up in it comes and goes. Is that what
you mean?" is more palatable than "so when you say: all come and all go but I remain",
what you are really saying that the show is ever changing but it is a permanent show
right?"

Empty Mirror: I understand

Empty Mirror: And I was really just playing around with you

Empty Mirror: I was being "relentless"

Roya: Stop it.

Empty Mirror: Do you see that there is nobody for anything to be more palatable to?

Roya: yes, this show does have a thing called "preference"

Empty Mirror: Only as something showing up in it.

Empty Mirror: The show has no preferences at all.

Empty Mirror: Preferences are just appearances in the show

Roya: yes.

Empty Mirror: To have preferences you would need to be the thinker of thoughts. Are
you the thinker of thoughts? Or do thoughts just show up in you and do their own thing?

Just like the rest of the show?

Roya: If the show did have preferences, it would be a boring show.

Roya: That that it had a preference for would not show up.
Empty Mirror: It could never have any preference because the show doesn't think
thoughts, it is simply aware of thoughts which appear in the show.

Empty Mirror: So what could have clarity about what?

Empty Mirror: What are you?

Empty Mirror: NOTHING needs to be "believed" here. Direct experience is always right
here and right now. This self aware show that you are, is aware of EVERYTHING that
there is to be aware of.

Roya: I have been dancing to distract you from this.

Empty Mirror: There is nobody to distract

Empty Mirror: You already know what you are

Empty Mirror: Read above and you will see that you already know what you are

Empty Mirror: And you always have.

Empty Mirror: There is nobody and no thing here but you. Only you have EVER known
anything.

Roya: Oh, Ego loves that

Empty Mirror: There is no such thing as ego

Empty Mirror: There are just thoughts about ego showing up in the show.

Roya: Well, maybe not. It wants to be the only show in town but it really does not. Who
will it show off to?

Empty Mirror: Look for yourself and see whether that is true or not.

Empty Mirror: What is it that wants to be the only show in town?

Empty Mirror: There is nobody and no thing to show off to

Roya: How could it be the only "show" in town if there are no other shows.

Empty Mirror: When you are all alone - what place does ego have?

Empty Mirror: Exactly!

Empty Mirror: There is just this one self aware show. Quietly playing away to itself
Empty Mirror: Freedom. Freedom to show up as anything. Fullness. Totally self
sufficient and without need.
This is the self aware show that you alone are.

Roya: There is a deep love toward it. It is immense.

Empty Mirror: The love of beingness. The fullness of infinity

Empty Mirror: You are all of it

Empty Mirror: You alone

Empty Mirror: The show is a show of the love of beingness that you alone are.

Empty Mirror: A dream of love - dreaming itself

Empty Mirror: Do you see your own infinite depth?

Roya: Why is it so hard to say it?

Empty Mirror: You tell me

Roya: They are three little words.

Empty Mirror: Part of the show says that something is hard to say.

Roya: and even harder to mean it

Empty Mirror: The show sees EVERYTHING that shows up in it

Empty Mirror: Hard for who/what?

Empty Mirror: Hard for who/what to mean?

Empty Mirror: I always. always, always always boils down to one question. What are
you?

Empty Mirror: What are you?

Empty Mirror: What are you?

Empty Mirror: The question never goes away.

Empty Mirror: So look now and see for once and for all.

Empty Mirror: Just look for yourself.

Roya: What is always here and has always been

Roya: a mystery

Roya: that I know as myself.

Empty Mirror: Yes - this incredible "show" that you have always been

Empty Mirror: Yes

Empty Mirror: The question is answered. The question will no longer find a place to
land.

Empty Mirror: It may appear briefly in the show, but as soon as it does, the answer will
also show up

Empty Mirror: You are free, and always have been

Empty Mirror: Do you see this?

Empty Mirror: Once the answer is known - it can never ever be unknown

Roya: Empty, I am still not seeing what comes and goes as this mystery.

Empty Mirror: What is the mystery then?

Empty Mirror: Nothing comes and goes

Empty Mirror: The show is ALWAYS ON.

Empty Mirror: Only appearances in the show come and go

Empty Mirror: The show is ALWAYS here. You are ALWAYS here.

Roya: I have glimpses as how what appears to come and go is part of the mystery.

Empty Mirror: It is not part of the mystery - it is the entire mystery

Empty Mirror: You are this self aware show. But what this show is, is a complete
mystery because concepts are all that we have to use, and concepts are just abstractions
in/of this utterly indivisible and seamless show.
Any divisions of the indivisible are meaningless. So concepts are meaningless.

Empty Mirror: Who what is this "I" that has glimpses of something???
Empty Mirror: And what is the "something" that this supposed "I" gets glimpses of?

Roya: Yes, I can see that (maybe not as deep as you can; and I don't know how deep you
see this)

Empty Mirror: Only you see anything

Empty Mirror: You are imagining that there is another that sees anything

Empty Mirror: Who/what is this "I" that has glimpses of who/what????

Empty Mirror: Don't make up theories here. Please look carefully.

Roya: well then: Glimpses come. is that better?

Empty Mirror: Glimpses show up in the show?

Empty Mirror: Glimpses of what?

Roya: "You are imagining that there is another that sees anything", yes I am.

Empty Mirror: So "glimpses" of something show up in the show - glimpses of what?

Empty Mirror: You are this self aware show. There is nothing anywhere ever that exists
outside of the show, so everything ever known is known only by you.
Nothing is ever hidden from you - it can NEVER be.
So what is it a glimpse of? And how could it possibly be a glimpse. Whatever it is that
you saw has no place to hide from you.

Roya: Can I say that I am tired?

Empty Mirror: Of course you can

Empty Mirror: I will just point out that you are NEVER tired. Tiredness shows up in the
show. And sometimes resting shows up.

Resting will probably show up soon if tiredness has shown up

Empty Mirror: There is no you to be tired

Roya: "So what is it a glimpse of? And how could it possibly be a glimpse. Whatever it is
that you saw has no place to hide from you.". Mind trying to conceptualized by putting
together what has been seen

Empty Mirror: No such thing as mind

Roya: Yes, as soon as I said that. Is it true? came up.

Empty Mirror: The show always sees itself in perfect clarity

Roya: Well don't tell it.

Empty Mirror: Including seeing any thoughts about mind and confusion.

Roya: Yes, very clear. How do we speak then?

Empty Mirror: Do you see that there is no going back from here? Do you see that once
the show knows of itself, the thoughts about separation are quickly followed by thoughts
that refute the thoughts of separation?
It just happened in your third comment above this.

Roya: which one?

Empty Mirror: There is no we to speak. The Roya character in the show will continue to
go about its business, and appear to speak to others, and others will appear to speak to
Roya - but only the self aware show that you are, and in which they appear, will know of
ANY of it

Empty Mirror: The show has nothing to do. It simply is, and knows of itself.

Roya: Have you considered changing your name to relentless? And Mirror is also a great
one.

Empty Mirror: This is how it has ALWAYS been.

Empty Mirror: A mirror is relentless. It reflects relentlessly

Empty Mirror: The show has nothing to do and nowhere to go. It simply is, and knows of
itself.

Roya: "There is no we to speak. The Roya character in the show will continue to.......".
Yes this I see. Although this seeing is not always in the show; it comes and goes.

Empty Mirror: Anything that comes and goes is IN the show.

Empty Mirror: Only the show is permanent.

Empty Mirror: Only the show can see what comes and goes in it.

Roya: Yes. I got to have a daily dose of your reminders (words on the screen) to not
forget and get lost in the dream (and before you bring it up: it is also the show) or not
Roya: "Only the show can see what comes and goes in it." Well this is what I said earlier
about the Mystery. How come when you say it, it is ok and when I do you trip me)

Roya: Ok, I see the difference is I was seeing the mystery that I am as the watcher of
comes and goes in front of it (including the Roya body) and not inside it.

Roya: or as it. No inside/outside.

Empty Mirror: Amen

Empty Mirror: Just this that you are - nothing more

Roya: I have to say it before I sign-off for tonight

Roya: I am this

Roya: Shall we let it perculate? and see where it takes us?

Empty Mirror: So finally the question is answered, and in the answering of it, all
questions are seen to be nothing more than a show

Roya: even the answer is the show

Empty Mirror: There is nobody to be taken anywhere, but the show may include the
appearance of a "percolation of thoughts"

Empty Mirror: Yes yes yes yes!!!!

Roya: Ok, "No-body" police

Empty Mirror: Even the answer is just a part of this self aware show that you are!!!

Empty Mirror: I am just an appearance in you pointing you back to yourself

Empty Mirror: I hope the restfulness that shows up appears to lead to a refreshedness
showing up. Good night

Roya: And gratitude for the self-pointing that is called John, or mirror, or empty or
whatever name you come as

Empty Mirror: Gratitude shows up in the show from nobody to nobody