Interviews of Gandhiji during his epic ‘fast unto death’ in 1932

Project: -

Interview (Political Science)

Submitted to: -

Professor Murali Karnam

Submitted By-

Vedika Singh

First Semester, First Year

2019-5LLB-113

NALSAR University of Law, Hyderabad

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Contents

INTRODUCTION......................................................................................................................2

INTERVIEWS AND THEIR ANALYSIS................................................................................3

15th September.......................................................................................................................3

16th and 17th September........................................................................................................4

18th & 19th September..........................................................................................................4

20th September.......................................................................................................................5

21st September.......................................................................................................................5

22nd September......................................................................................................................6

23rd September......................................................................................................................7

24th September.......................................................................................................................8

25th September.......................................................................................................................9

26th September.....................................................................................................................10

CONCLUSION........................................................................................................................11

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INTRODUCTION

The talk about Yeravda Pact starts with what happened in and after the 2 nd Round Table
Conference. The demand for separate electorates for ‘untouchables’ by Dr. Ambedkar was
accepted as such by then Prime Minister of Britain J. Ramsay MacDonald as an aftermath of
that conference by granting Communal Award to the oppressed class in the constitution for
their representation in Legislature. His focus was mainly on general electorates and if those
who failed to get elected through general constituencies might get co-opted by the elected
members. So, in the event of the announcement of separate electorates for the depressed
classes by the government on 16th August 1932, Gandhiji wrote a letter to Sir Samuel Hoare
conveying his resolve to “fast unto death” on 18th August, 1932. What he had to say was that
he did not want ‘untouchables’ classified as a separate class and that he could not sacrifice
interests of ‘untouchables’ even for the freedom of his country. He added that Sikh may
remain Sikh, Muslim as Muslim, Christian as Christian but would ‘untouchables’ remain
untouchables for forever? He would accept fall of Hinduism but not the liveability of
Untouchability.

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INTERVIEWS AND THEIR ANALYSIS

15th September-

Question- “Why is he fasting for such a side-line cause like untouchability in the mainstream
of governance?”

Gandhi- Fasting is not just for light and atonement but also exists as a privilege when
considered as a duty and thus in my efforts regarding attaining self-purification, I’ve come
across a section where there exists a small voice within and I’m obeying that only.

Question- “But who has explored all the dark mysteries of the human heart? Who knows
whether deep down in it there may not be lurking, unknown to one malice and anger and ill-
will? When all is said and done may not such a penance on a hallucination as likely as it may
be an illumination?”1

Gandhi- Regarding former, it is helpful only as is lessening the burden on Hinduism. And if
Illumination, it is meant to reach the hearts of those who distrust me. One has to fight for
everything that he needs. It is better to try to find one’s own way in the darkness than to just
sit at the start only and this may sometimes require sacrifice on one’s own part. Talking about
Satyagraha, if this sacrifice is meant to reach for truth and love, then it is worth for.

Question- “Is not such an appeal a form of coercion, is it not likely to result in the
suppression of reason and its subordination to' mere emotionalism?”2

Gandhi- Love, truth and right do not coerce but compel. These forces are mighty and have an
over-powering effect. Satyagraha frees you from existing anger, hatred and prejudices and
compels reason to be free and not enslaves it. It gives one a clear perspective of what it ought
to appeal.

Question- “But such Satyagraha cannot be used against anybody and everybody. There must
be a common bond, some meetings ground between you and those it is used?”3

1
The Epic Fast. (1932). [e-book] Available at: https://www.mkgandhi.org/ebks/epic_fast.pdf [Accessed 8 Sep.
2019].
2
Supra note 1.
3
Supra note 1.

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Gandhi- This upcoming fast is representing just cause of those people who keep faith in me,
be it Untouchables, Englishmen or Women, in spite of what they have been taught to believe
in. My action is intended to connect Hindu conscience to right religious action.

16th and 17th September-

His supporters and followers-

Question- “What is his advice for them?”

Gandhi- To not follow me blindly but genuinely work hard and selflessly for the service of
‘untouchables’ and refrain from violence. My fast is an expression of non-violence and taking
any route away from it would only fasten my end.

Question- “Could you reconsider your decision or postpone the fast as we did not get a
sufficient notice on time so as to mobilize public and tackle the problem successfully?”

Gandhi- Now the decision has been taken and it is in name of the God and for his work and
thus, could not recall or postpone it except if the Award is retracted. And also, as a prisoner,
he is not allowed to communicate with outer world and Government owes a duty to tell
people about my fast as I told about it to them. If it did not happen that means God did not
will it to.

18th & 19th September-

The Bombay Deputation - Seth Mathuradas Vassanji, Sir Chunilal Mehta, Sir

Purshottamdas Thakurdas, and Sjt. Ghanshyamdas Birla

Question- “What is your view regarding the question of reservation of seats?”

Gandhi- I’m opposed to it. Let the Hindus through the change in their hearts and manners
towards the depressed classes be given the chance to bring the large number of
representatives of the depressed class on their own and if this voluntary scheme fails, then let
there be any other suitable system for allotment of additional seats by mutual agreement.

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Question- “Is the reservation of seats for the oppressed class an issue in the fast?”

Gandhi- No, it is not. And also, the fast would end as soon as joint electorates replace
separate electorates.

Fast begins at the noon on 20th September.

20th September-

Question- “Is not your fast a sin against proportion? Are you not betraying a lapse from
your usual sense of balance and relevancy in treating the mere make-shifts of Political
expediency on the part of the British Prime Minister as an altar worthy of so costly a
sacrifice?”4

Gandhi- The giving up of my life for ‘untouchables’ is a call from within. It was a
psychological moment that I woke up from my sleep and realised that this was the moment
meant to be seized. And even if I die, I feel blessed to have such comrades who would work
for the humanity in good of all faiths and will continue the streak by strictly adhering to the
principles of truth and non-violence. Measure my fast on the scale of justice, as I’ve nothing
more than my life to offer to remover this curse of ‘Untouchability’.

Question- “What were your thoughts while writing to Sir Samuel Hoare?”

Gandhi- My fight against untouchability is to remove the impure in humanity and if it gets
rooted out, the consequences will not just be seen nationally but also internationally. If I’ve
embarked upon this journey with my whole heart by keeping aside malice, impurity and
anger so as to move that class of humanity which will continue this after me, this fast shows
my faith in the cause, in the Hindu community, in human nature and also in the official world
outside.

21st September-
4
Supra note 1.

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Tej Bahadur, Rajendra Prasad and others- “The proposal that for each seat out of 71 seats
offered by PM through separate electorates, depressed classes should elect a panel of not
less than 3 candidates as the chosen candidates for that seat in the general constituency.
Joint electorates principle to be applied for the extra seats. What are your views on the
proposal as finalised by Ambedkar Saab?”

Gandhi- I would like to have everything in writing and give my final words after knowing
what Ambedkar and Rao Bahadur has to say.

Question- “What does he want to be included in the pact that might move the Hindus?”

Gandhi- I would like to appeal to all the parties to the pact to work for temple entry of the
untouchables being made possible. Though difficult, we should acknowledge that excluding
these people from the use of public facilities by categorising them as ‘untouchables’ is just
violative of their fundamental right and such facilities are for all Hindus. Appealing to
legislation could be effective if it can move the orthodoxy to convert their passive attitude
towards the reform of such people stealthily and act for its approval through non-violence.

Question- “What role does the Legislation play here and how its efficacy will affect your
breaking the fast?”

Gandhi- Legislation represents the will of the majority and if we are successful in moving the
Hindus, they would not only support the pact but also work actively for its application. What
matters to me the most is the social and religious reform even if the reservation of seats exists
under joint electorate scheme but the withdrawal of the separate electorates by the British
Government. In such case, I would break my fast but if the reform is not seen within 6
months of the pact being made effective then it would be taken up again as not doing so
would be betraying my God and the untouchables in whose name, I’ve taken up the cause.

22nd September-

Gandhiji puts forth that why not to tolerate primary election for all the seats i.e. extend
the panel system for the whole of the seats and thus asks C. Rajagopalachari and
Rajendra Prasad and others to discuss among themselves.

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In the evening, interview of Ambedkar and Gandhi takes place-

Gandhi- Having fullest sympathy with you, I’m with you in most of the things you say but
you say that You are interested in my life?

Ambedkar- I am, Mahatmaji. And you would become our hero if you devoted yourself fully
to the welfare of the Depressed classes.

Gandhi- If you’re interested in my life, then I think you know what to do in order to save this
life. I would confess that I do not like this scheme but I’m ready to accept the election of a
panel of candidates only if it is open to all the depressed classes and not just for your group. I
know you’re ‘untouchable’ by birth but also accept that I’m an ‘untouchable’ by adoption and
thus I cannot stand this division of the community in yours and others and would readily give
my life to prevent that as I’m doing now to halt the upsetting of the Hindu Community.

Ambedkar accepts his offer of primary elections for all the seats and do note his point
regarding the panel members and other points to be consulted with his friends.

23rd September-

Ambedkar- “What to do with the claim of opposition by some friends regarding the demand
for a referendum at the end of the stated period?”

Gandhi- I agree to the principle of having a referendum but extend it for five years if not just
one year and if verdict comes in favour of the reserved seats being retained then a further
lease of life would be given and then the next referendum would take place after 10 years.
And thus, the process could be repeated every 10 years even though there would be no need
of it as we aim to remove this stigma totally.

Ambedkar and his friends did not get satisfied with the conversation but had to stop it
there because of his falling health.

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Press- “What do you say about the letters and telegrams by many people out there saying
that they are also fasting out of sympathy?”

Gandhi- I do not know whether this out of love for me or sympathy of the cause but I ask
them to desist from it. This is a wrong way of showing sympathy but rather they should take
it up as a duty to render services for the ‘untouchables’ and do everything they could do to
remove this orthodoxy practice.

24th September, Saturday afternoon-

Ambedkar, Rajagopalachari and Dr. Solanki ask for the referendum to be conducted at the
end of ten years if not fifteen which they had finalised earlier, but five-year time is not
workable.

Gandhi- There should be a referendum but not after more than five years. Being adamant on
my point, I speak of truth invincibly as if the deep-rooted taint in the community in the form
of ‘untouchability’ has been seen by the Hindus as a blot then why would you want to extend
the that time period of that self-purification and self-atonement of theirs? The Hindus would
have to give proof of their heart-cleansing with five years only or not at all as if Hinduism is
not purged of it completely, it would again and again portray itself in variety of ways so as to
poison our social and cultural structures. So, either it is five years or my life.

In the late hours of the afternoon,

C. Rajagopalachari- “The whole question of referendum to be depended now on the future

course of events and Dr. Ambedkar and his friends have agreed to this solution. Do you
grant your permission?”

Gandhi- Excellent!

Yeravda Pact formally drafted on 24th September with signatures of all present there at
the time of tea break.

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25th September, the fifth day of the fast-

Complete agreement reached between the wings of the depressed classes of both Dr.
Ambedkar and Rao Bahadur and the Hindus’ representative Pandit Malviya.
Signatures of all the Congressmen available also added.

Question- “As the settlement is out now, when would you break the fast?”

Gandhi- As soon as the settlement is accepted by the Premier in toto, I would break the fast
but if the duty that exists from the side of Hindus is not taken up seriously, it would be taken
up again as if it did not happen I would be guilty of betrayal of trust but the sudden
acceptance of such settlement is not possible. So, I expect a little patience from both the sides
and also hope that this awakening that took place in last five days would further up in
removal of this orthodoxic practice and rid Hinduism of the taint of untouchability. Thus,
future plans remain in the hands of the Government.

Interview by Gandhi to ‘Times of India’ which appeared in ‘Illustrated Weekly of India’ on 2

Oct, 1932-

Interviewer- “Would you fast again in the future as the pact has been signed and everyone
expects a satisfactory and possible outcome?”

Gandhi- Yes, if the necessity arises. Sincerity of one’s views can be shown to the world
through this means.

Interviewer- “Would you go to the Third Round Table Conference?”

Gandhi- Only if my demands are met.

Interviewer- “Suppose all Indian leaders decided to practise this method of gaining their
own ends, no matter for what cause?”5

5
Supra note 1.

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Gandhi- Existence of some negative aspects of a thing does not mean that it should not exist.
Like Arsenic- being most powerful medicinal drug it is sill misused by some but as if a thing
is inherently good, what matters is its proper use at proper time. And talking about the fasting
of this nature, not everyone could do this i.e. undergo such an excruciating pain so as to
thrive or become popular. It is only by training the mind and the body that someone could
sustain for long without food i.e. the weak and the undisciplined would soon give up the idea.

26th September-

Col. Doyle- “Could you break your fast now?”

Gandhi- I’m ready to break my fast but if as soon as it happens, the older restrictions are
imposed on me, the work of reformation will get affected and thus I expect the facilities to
carry on my work against ‘untouchability’ if I am to remain here.

Col. Doyle- I don’t have power to give you assurance regarding this but I would definitely
convey you point of view to the Government tonight. And thus, now please break your fast
soon.

He breaks his fast at 5-15 PM in the Yeravda Central Prison, Poona.

A statement by him to the press at night-

Gandhi- I expect each villager and every ‘untouchable’ home to take this message of freedom
in literal sense and expect them to work towards this reform whole-heartedly. This Depressed
Class representation gives dawn to a new era of mutual trust, mutual give and take and unity
of all the communities. May this upheaval give direction to other communities also to come
out and fight for themselves. And also, I assure that I would work hard towards the fulfilment
of this agreement and if not, they could put my life as hostage against its fulfilment.

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CONCLUSION

This epic ‘fast unto death’ of September, 1932 gave a new form and direction to the Civil
Disobedience Movement raging at that time in the country. Gandhiji, incarcerated in Yeravda
Jail, took upon this fast to prevent the categorisation of ‘Untouchables’ in the Hindus to take
place. His critics called this fast as a form of coercion, a political blackmail. He knew that his
fast acted as a moral pressure but it was moved against those who believed in him and not
against those who did not. This self-atonement practice he undertook showed his sincerity
towards the work of erasing the social tyranny of ‘Untouchability’. Gandhi’s fast caused an
uproar of public support in the country and various politicians and important dignitaries held
meeting with Dr. Ambedkar and Gandhiji and interviewed him regarding the cause of the fast
and the settlement to be agreed upon as seen above in the project. And also, that he held the
cause of the ‘untouchables’ dearer to him as if also more than his life and thus if he were the
only person to resist against such bifurcation of Hindus into two because of the blot of
untouchability created by the orthodox Hinduism, he would resist it with his life, which is a
call from within. Later, the concrete provisions regarding the joint electorates and adequate
representation of the Depressed Classes were formulated under the Poona Pact in November
1932.

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