Cineaste Publishers, Inc.

History and the Gay Viewfinder: AN INTERVIEW WITH DEREK JARMAN

Author(s): Roy Grundmann and DEREK JARMAN
Source: Cinéaste, Vol. 18, No. 4 (1991), pp. 24-27
Published by: Cineaste Publishers, Inc.
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/41687120
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 and
History
Viewfinder
Gay
AN INTERVIEW WITH DEREK
by Roy Grundmann
American critics talk about Britishfilm-
makers these days, they mention Stephen
When Frears and Peter Greenaway, but theyusually
forgetDerek Jarman. Whereas Greenaway's more re-
centfilms wear theirprofligacylike a badge of honor,
Jarman's work betrays the exigencies of an underdog
filmmakerwho sleeps withhis camcorderunder thepil-
low. And while Frears's artistic migrationto the U.S.
has secured him bothmainstream box officeand studio
funding,Jarman, by now, is a well-versedveteranofthe
perennial racefor dwindlinggovernmentgrants.
Jarman'sfirstfeature, Sebastiane, came out in 1975
and amazed criticsbecause of its unlikelysubject mat-
ter-a portraitof a militaryplatoon ofAncientRome's
notoriousarmy treatedas a homoerotic fantasy.Hisfilm
Jubileescreened at Cannes in 1977 and The Tempest,
his versionoftheShakespeare play, was a rouserat the
1979 BerlinFilm Festival. The latterfilmfselaborate set
designs and sophisticatedcinematographyrevealed yet
anotherfacet ofJarman's artisticcreativity- painting
and design. Having studied painting in the 1960s, he
laterworkedas a costume and set designerfortheRoyal
Ballet and as a productiondesigner on Ken Russell's
1970 film,The Devils. He continued topursue this side
of his career all throughthe Seventies and showed his
paintings in galleries in bothEngland and the U.S.
Jarman has as meandering a career as any avant-
garde artist.In the early Eighties, when it became in-
creasinglydifficult forhim tofindfundingforhisfeature
filmprojects,he turnedto making rock videosfor such
pop thespians as Marianne Faithful,Marc Almond,The
Smiths,and The Pet Shop Boys.
Althoughfocusingonfilmmakingsince 1980, hisfine
arts education shines throughin hisfilms,most notably
in Caravaggio,an imaginary biopic of the painter who
died in 1610. Caravaggio premiered to mesmerized
audiences at the 1986 Berlin Film Festival and repre-
sented a breakthrough forJarman in more than one re-
spect. It was a highlycontroversialfilmfinanced with
state moneythatactually recovereditsproductioncosts.
Ifthesuccess ofCaravaggio up out of thefestival circuit
intotheart house circuitwas a one-timeleapforitsdirec-
tor,its visually stunninghomoeroticimagery, financed
by theBFI, certainlyhelped boostJarman's reputationto
fabled notoriety. CaravaggioconfirmedJarman's reputa-
tionas a gay avant-gardefilmmakerwitha fine arts edu-
cationwhose manneras a writer-director is to take classi-
cal materialand give it a new spin.
Jarman retellshistory froma radicallydifferent point
of view. His films' disjointed narrativesshow that his-
toricaloppressiondoes notoccur only in wars waged by
tyrantsand tories,but that it also takes place on the
local level lyingdormantin everyindividual.Jarman's
meditatedengagementwithsocietyhas its own textual
import,plyingthespectatorwithstartlingbitsofimage-
ry.Lacking a straightforward putdown of tangible ene-
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the
JARMAN
mies, his films never put the problem straightin your
face, which partly explains Jarman's problems in get-
tinghisfilms distributed.
Two of his more recentfilms, The Last of England
(1987) and The Garden (1990),force us to rethinkour no-
tionsofsocial critiqueon celluloid. Bothfilms retellBib-
lical scenes and historicalevents in collages and visual
tableaux that challenge our received understandingof
historyand shatter traditionalconcepts ofgender iden-
tity.The Garden is a lyricalprose poem about a decay-
ing Britain ruled bypoverty,pollution,and police appa-
ratuses. In the midstofthisOrwellianscenario,Jarman
places a gay couple who replace Christin a fragmented
reenactmentof the storyof the Passion. The Garden is
as much about the role of the church in thepersecution
ofhomosexualityas it is about the meaning ofthestory
of the Passion for contemporaryWesterncivilization.
Thefilm was shot in London and Dungeness whereJar-
man owns a cottage abuttinga nuclear power plant.
The Garden had itspremierein January 1990 at New
York's Film Forum where it showed as part of the Cut-
tingEdgefilm tour,which,since 1987, has featured new
films of internationalfilmmakers.Knowing about Jar-
man's maverick reputationand resistance to assimila-
tion,I expected some kind ofenfantterriblewhen I met
himfor the interviewthe day afterthe screening.I was
wrong.Jarman turnedout to be an affablechap witha
gangling posture and a mind as freewheeling as his
films.- Roy Grundmann
Cineaste: Your new film, The Garden, much like The
Last of England, is a visual essay. Althoughstructured
by thestoryofChrist,it is a collage ofdisjointed,almost
lyricalsegments. Whydid you choose thisestheticform
and not a straightforward narrative?
Derek Jarman: To be honest,itall comes down to fund-
ing and economics. OtherwiseI could have neverfunded
a filmlike this. Partlydue to the subject matter,no one
would have taken it on. On the otherhand, byjust begin-
ning filmingwith the Super 8mm camera and arriving
with,say, fourteenhours of landscape, you've actually
somethingto show people. And because it isn't narrative
and you haven't got a script,it is as iftheyfundedyou
and not the film.So how much are you worth?In this
case it was 475,000 pounds. Once you're workingin this
area you have to workin a different way. We had six for-
mal days of shootingon one set in a littlestudio witha
bluescreen behind and about three days in Dungeness.
So the whole thing was made in about nine days, al-
thoughthe landscape footagewas made over a periodof
threeyears. And we didn't reallyget the fundingforthe
filmuntilit was edited. We got a littlebit fromZDF and
some fromthe Japanese.
Cineaste: But you also did Caravaggio,whichwas quite
different,and Sebastiane.
Jarman: Oh, verydifferent. Sebastiane came at a differ-
 TheLastofEngland
enttime,sixteenyearsago, in the Seventies.And making
filmsdidn'tcost thatmuch then.Things have changed a
lot. What was interestingin the Eighties was the music
video. The filmmakerswho mighthave been experimen-
tal filmmakers ended up makingmusic videos.JohnMay-
berry,forinstance, who won MTV with all the Sinead
O'Connorstuff, is in Jubilee and sat on theset and looked
at mySuper 8mm filmsquietlyat night.So Tve gota real
connectionwiththe whole thing.But thatwhole genera-
tionwent intomusic videos. It was a gag, really.
Cineasta: But you've also worked in music videos.
Jarman: Yes, but mostlybecause the musicians knew
whatI'd been up to and therewas a historyabout that,so
they wanted me to. But the differenceis that I said to
themI'm notverygood at makingmusic videos and that
they'd be much betteroffwith Mayberryor one of the
others.But it did keep me going. So it was like makinga
livingbut I also enjoyed it because it put you in touch
withall thisadvanced technology.It was importantat the
timebecause withThatchercoming to powerall sources
ofmoneyhad driedup and I didn'treallyworkfrom1979
to 1985. 1 couldn't get anyone to fundCaravaggio or the
otherfilmsI wroteat the time.Particularlyas I was iden-
tifiedas a gay filmmaker,the fundingbecame difficult.
To keep going I suddenly realized there was a way
through.And the way throughwas the filmThe Angelic
Conversation.The BritishFilm Institutesuddenlyfunded
me forwhat yrasmeant to be a twentyminutefilmand I
made them a featurelength filmfor the money using
video.
For instance,BritishScreen said to me, "We like fund-
ing you because we don't have to put any money into
your filmsand we always get somethingback whereas
withotherpeople we have to put in millionsand we often
get nothing."Every year we made a featurefilm,it was
the cheapest featurefilmmade thatyear in GreatBritain
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by far.The Garden is the cheapest one last year by far
and Edward will be the cheapest this year I suspect.
Cineaste: Some funds have come in the past from
Channel Four and ZDF , theChannel Two ofGerman TV.
Jarman: ZDF has always been verygood. My business
with Channel Four in the Eighties has been more com-
plicated.They came intowhat was essentiallyfreeforall
and theystaked out- it's like the prairies.Beforewe sort
of "freelyroamed." You couldn't have made Sebastiane
in the Eighties, no way. But there also wouldn't have
been anyone who would have privatelyfundedit either.
But then, theywould have all pointedto televisionas a
source forfunds.However,the TV companycame, quite
literally,withitsown agenda ofwhatwas permissibleand
not permissible.So over the years the filmswere not put
on Channel Four although theybought them. Of all the
filmmakersat home, I was the last to be shown.
I mean I was shown but onlyunder chaos withreper-
cussions even in the House of Commons. I got tied up
with the video nasties bill in 1985. Then, I was given a
verypoliticalagenda with Caravaggio to rescue myself,
as itwere,fromthatbilland to show I was dealingin high
art and not pornographyas they had suggested with
Sebastiane and Jubilee.
Cineaste: Is fundingthe main reason whysome ofyour
films are done this way - on Super 8mm, convertedto
video and then blown up to 35mm?
Jarman: It could have been different. All threefirstfilms
were shot in 16mm - Sebastiane , The Tempest and
Jubilee. I was settingoffon thattrack.I didn'tthinkI had
a plan. It was more ofa reactionto the actual situationI
foundmyselfin. Edward , the next film,is goingto be in
35mm. Afterall, the Marloweis a narrativeand thewhole
thinghas got to be made in fourweeks. It will be made
verysimplyand beautifullylit.We'll have thatfinished,I
hope, by the earlysummer.
25
 Caravaggio TheGarden
Cineaste: What is your conceptfor this film and its Garden and The Last of England. They thinkThe Gar-
casting? den is patronizingand theview ofsexualityis sado-maso-
Jarman: I've been fightingeveryoneto get completely chistic. They don't take into account that the situation
unknownpeople. Everyoneasked me, "Can theydo it?," itselfis thatway.
and theansweris: I haven'ta clue but they'reverykeen. I Cineaste: In The Garden the Christfigure sometimes
don't want a well-knownactor because then it becomes gets replaced by a gay couple. Why?
someone playingthe part. I want to buck the whole way Jarman: They are sacrificialinsofaras thewholestoryof
of lookingat a classiceliElizabethan text in filmin any the Passion is sacrificial.This doesn't mean they can't
case. In theatrewe knowhow to do itin moderndress but fightback. But it would have been verydifficult forthem
no one has actuallytakenthatthroughintothe cinema. I to fightback likeACT UP does, althoughI thinkthisis the
just want to make it very simply. Everythingseems way we should all go. But in thisfilmtheyare inoperative
'made' in Shakespeare whereas it seems that Marloweis because it is a verypassive story.I wanted to do some-
much fresher.Edward is an obsessive, gay love story. thingdifferent withthis filmthan ACT UP does withits
When you firstread it you don't realize it. But it is so activism.
shockingwhen you actuallyget down to it. Cineaste: You have a classical education in art history,
Cineaste: You like to use classical material donftyou? literature,and fine arts which oftenshines throughin
Jarman: Well,it's a way ofgettingthingsthrough,isn't thefilms. They always contain slices of world history,
it? I áon't thinkifI had writtenthis I would have gotten worldliterature,and the historyofart.Do you thinkthat
any funding.I couldn't believe they'dactually let me do these thingssimplyhave to be retoldfroma gay pointof
this.Take themurderscene: Edward is killedby a redhot view or,generally,an alternativepoint of view?
pokershoved up his ass. How is thisgoingto look on the Jarman: Simon Watneysays that my importance- ifI
screen? But BBC put halfa millioninto it. have any- is thatI have reclaimeda whole historyforgay
Cineaste: Let's go back toThe Garden.It coversa broad people. I thinkI certainlytriedthis in Caravaggio and in
spectrum of topics- religion,persecution, destruction The Angelic Conversation when I was puttingthe son-
of nature, a lot of gay topics. Whydo you tryto inter- nets intoa different context.There I also decided to have
weave these issues so tightly?Do you thinktheybelong them conveyed with a woman's voice, Judy Dench's. A
together? lot ofpeople didn't like that.
Jarman: I think they do. They're all interconnected. Cineaste: Some people detect in The Garden a certain
Think about the GulfWar and the possibilityof the oil grudgeoftheartistin a timeofmeagerfundingand poli-
wells being fired.Or anotherexample: I have a nuclear tical repression. What are the shortcomings in your
powerstationin my backyard.But when people ask me countrythat botheryou?
how I can livethere,I say thatwhen Chernobylhappened Jarman: Firstofall, everyoneuses The Garden to their
people were cleaning up the hills in Wales 2,000 miles own purposesand you certainlycan read thesethingsinto
away. On theotherhand, thearea whereI live is officially the film.I'm not certainifI was actuallythinkingthat.A
declareda threatenednaturalenvironment.When I tried lot of people also ask me why I don't make a more 'gay
to plant a rose bush there,the day-warden forthe area film,'forexample, about the AIDS crisis. The answer is
came by and argued withme. Fromthenon I was on the I'm making filmsand I've been quite open about being
list of dangers to this area - unlike the nuclear power HIV positive now forfouryears and I'm always talking
station. about it.So thereis anotheragenda goingon. I've been on
Cineaste: AfterwatchingSebastiane, The Last of Eng- the radio not about my filmsbut about being HIV. It's
land, and The Garden, one is struck that Christianity verycomplicated.I'm also in a veryprivilegedsituation.
and the Church are such pervasive themes in all your Myexperiencesare probablydifferent fromotherpeople's
films. Theyseem to contain bothcritiqueand reverence emotionallybecause I've experienceda greatdeal ofsup-
ofChristianity. portfrompeople and that's not trueforeveryone.
Jarman: I can't see any otherway ofdoingit.Christiani- Cineaste: Are you involvedin AIDS activisim?
ty,to me, is somethingthatin thelast instanceis verydif- Jarman: I'm a witness. I wouldn't say I'm an activist
ficultto understand.It completelypervades our society particularly.Some people mightthinkI am byjust doing
and theway we lookat things.We're also livingin a world what I do. I'm verywell aware ofwhat has been happen-
which is shaped by s/m.To ignorethat would be ridicu- ing because it has been happeningto my friends.
lous. People who are into 'social realism' absolutelyhate Cineaste: Are you afraid of being coopted because of
my films.I got terriblereviewsin gay magazines forThe yourprivileges?

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 Jarman: It didn t actually atiect me. I had already
slipped throughthe net. Clause 28 is targetedagainstthe
local level and my filmsare not fundedby local councils.
It has affectedquite a few,like Gay Switchboard,one of
our theatrecompanies. It has stoppedlocal councilsfrom
promotinghomosexualityand local governmentsfrom
fundingbooks. Gay Switchboard got fewerand fewer
bookingsbecause local theatreswouldn'tbook themany-
more. Clause 28 also had a big influenceon schools and
educational material.
Cineaste: Do you think that the clause has, by and
large, had a damaging impact on Britishculture?
Jarman: It gives people one more confirmation fortheir
bigotry.
Cineaste: But you don't thinkClause 28 is a general
clamp down.
Jarman: It is, because nearlyeverythingelse has to go
throughlocal councils.But filmsdon't. Muchworseis the
new one comingup, Clause 25, whichis a criminaljustice
of
EdwardII (photocourtesy billand an attemptto recriminalizethreeareas ofconsen-
FilmReference Library,CinemathequeOntario) sual gay sex, among themcruisingand kissingin public.
Jarman: No,I'm beingcooptedone way or another,any- It could also lead to the closing of all gay bars. We're
way. I'm quite happyto talkabout myown situation.But workinga lot on gettingthese thingspublic.
when it gets down to who provides the health care for Cineaste: I know you hate comparisons betweenyour-
whom, that's anotherarea. For example, are our hospi- self and Peter Greenaway.
tals sufficiently funded?Well, the answer to that is no, Jarman: Because we're in completelydifferent worlds.I
notreally.I have to say thatmypublichealthcare,which, can't say much more because I haven't seen manyofhis
I presume,is thesame foreveryone[in England], because films.I appreciatethathe's been managingto make more
I don't get any special treatment,has been exemplary.I filmsagainsttheodds as an individualfilmmaker. I looked
thinkif you want to fightAIDS you have to start with at The Draughtsman's Contract and I thoughtit was
yourself.Those friendsofmine who actuallyavoided the very conventional,playing into all the conservativecri-
issue are theones who are dead. The ones who have been teriaofBritishfilms- a statelyhome, well-namedactors
moreopen about it and talkedabout it are the ones who -it was costumedrama ofthe 'meet me in thepast' type.
stillseem to be here. For myself,I see the basis ofbeing Yet, I know I've done the same thingwithThe Tempest.
public,and therefore owningup to yourown HIV status, Cineaste: But why your affinitywithNicolas Roeg?
as a step forwardbecause one can talk it out and you're Jarman: He is a filmmakerofanothergenerationI have
somewhatpreparedforattacks. admired very much, particularly Performance and
Caneaste: Does that mean that activism does notjust Eureka. He's also been verysupportive.All my filmsare
cõnsist of blaming the governmentbut also of going on anotherlevel. PeterGreenawaynevercomes to any of
public and tryingto show people how to cope with the my expositions,but ifNick Roeg had been in New York
situation? last nighthe would have come to my screening.
Jarman: I thinkyou have to do both. Cineaste: Do you see yourselfat one pointmakingfilms
Cineaste: Your career in the Seventies was such a di- like Nick Roeg does?
verseblendofpainting,writing, filmmaking,decorating Jarman: No,I thinkit's verycourageous,all thesepeople
sets. From the 1980s on it seemed you had really made who've gone to Hollywood.I haven't because I wantedto
a decision to concentrateon filmmaking.Do you think preservemylifeas a gay man- and how can you livethat
film is a politicallymore apt medium? lifethere?- and mylifeis much moreimportantthanthe
Jarman: You're right.A show in an art galleryis not work.Especially because I was open, it would have been
very confrontational. With filmyou could get different very difficult to go to Hollywoodin any case. If anyone
responses. It's also more public than exhibitingpaint- would have taken me, I'd have to have been fairlycloset-
ings. Withmy filmsI went into people's privaterooms. ed, I think.I admire those people who put theirhead in
Otherart is always stuck in a gallery.Also, when people the news like Roeg or Ken Russell. I, formyself,liketo be
leave the cinema theyalways seem to be makinga deci- in Dungeness. Moreover,I can't drive. I wouldn't know
sion about the filmtheyjust saw. When people leave an how to survivein Hollywood.
art gallerytheyjust wander around. At least theydon't Cineaste: With all the filmmakers moving to Holly-
leave like theyleave the cinema. wood, what do you think about the state of British
Cineaste: It seems you are a very democraticfilm- cinema?
maker. Yourfilms are also veryvisiblythefilms ofother Jarman: It's largelyan Americancinema. Some of the
people. brightestpeople are there.I saw Stephen Frearstheother
Jarman: You have to be a bit democraticwhen you've day and he said, "Derek, you're the onlyone who stayed
gotno money.Because everyonehas to come withit. But here." But I haven'tstayedherebecause ofany particular
my filmsbecome undemocraticwhen I pop up in all the situation. It's just the way lifefell out. There is a new
different areas in thefilm.The productionofThe Garden generationalready. Take Isaac Julien. I hope he'll be a
wentthroughdiversephases, too. I wasn't present,forex- success. It's very difficultin England because the
ample, when the soundtrackwas done because I was in younger generationof filmmakershave not been well
the hospital.There were discussions about what footage supported. They made a lot of pop promos and small
would actuallymake it intothe film.I said, "I don't want thingsforOut on Tuesday but veryfewof them are ac-
any ofthescenes withme in thebed dreaming."I thought tually able to move throughto featurefilms.There is a
it was too self-indulgent. I was also shying away from bottleneckthere. The interestingthingabout Britainis
it because I wasn't well. But everyoneelse said it's the therecould be a real renaissanceofgay filmmaking there.
best bit. There is so much talentand they'reall openlygay. They
Cineaste: Has Clause 28 affectedyou? neverhad the problemsofour generation. ■

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