Conversation with Thomas Mann

Author(s): Rolf N. Linn

Source: The German Quarterly, Vol. 33, No. 3 (May, 1960), pp. 224-226
Published by: Wiley on behalf of the American Association of Teachers of German
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 CONVERSATIONWITH THOMAS MANN
ROLF N. LINN

On January 18, 1947, I had the good fortune of spending an after-

noon at the home of Thomas Mann. Because of my interests at the
time, a good part of our conversation dealt with Theodor Fontane,
one of Mann's favorite authors. The first statement my interlocutor
made evinced his unqualified admiration: "Das Plauderhafte in
Fontane, das er seiner gaskognischen Herkunft zuschreibt, wurde im-
mer gelibsterund schlief1lich wie feiner Nebel." Talking about Fon-
tane's positive attitude toward the naturalists in general and Gerhart
Hauptmann in particular, Mann said, "Es gehbrt Mut dazu, im Alter
Ansichten zu aindem, fiir die man keine Basis in seiner Jugend hat."
This seemed to refer as much to Mann himself as to Fontane, for when
I ventured to say that Fontane's life had been such as to broaden him
and to keep him open-minded-Fontane's years in England had come
up in the discussion-Mann replied, "Ich war zu alt, als ich aus-
wanderte, um ein neues Weltbild aus dem praktischen Weltbiirgertum
zu formen. Aber natiirlich, man lemt ja doch im Erlebnis."
Fontane's genuine liking for the British was, according to Mann,
not only due to the former's interest in ballads. "Er kannte sie ja,
hatte ja da gelebt. Und hatte auch recht. Das Empire, im 19. Jahr-
hundert wenigstens, war ein Gliick fiir die Menschheit."
Thomas Mann was surprised to learn that the name Budden-
brook occurs in Effi Briest. He repeatedly asked if I was sure. Did I
not mean Buddenbrock? There was such a family ennobled by
Frederick the Great. He recalled that for some time he did not know
what to call the protagonists of his first work. He and Heinrich to-
gether worked on the problem, deciding finally on the combination of
two low German words each of which means marsh. He explained that
it was not easy to find a northern German name that was distinctive
and yet not humorous. "SchlieBlich konnte ich die Leute ja nicht
Klbterjahn nennen."
The fact that he had invented a name which existed in a novel
known to him at the time led Mr. Mann to remark that unconscious
borrowing was not uncommon. He himself had once been struck by
the close resemblance of one of his characters to one created by Ibsen.
During a performance of The Pillars of Society, he had nudged his

224

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 CONVERSATIONWITH THOMASMANN 225

brother Heinrich when Hilmar Tonnesen appeared, and exclaimed,

"Das ist ja der Christian."
As we continued, I said that some people, including myself, had
often felt him to be the successor of Fontane. Thomas Mann seemed
pleased and said that Richard Dehmel had written him the same
thing when K6nigliche Hoheit appeared. I asked if I might see Deh-
mel's letter. My host replied sadly that it had been lost in Germany,
"wie so vieles andere."
The mentioning of Mann's second novel caused me to interject
that this happened to be the one through which I had "discovered"
Thomas Mann when I found it in my father's library and was not
yet familiar with the name of the author. Mr. Mann admitted that
K-nigliche Hoheit seemed to many critics an anti-climax after the
Buddenbrooks. "Darauf hatten sie ja gewartet," he said. "Aber so
schlecht war er [der zweite Roman] nicht; und hat noch immer einen
gewissen Charme."
Speaking about style, Mann began with a definition. Style he de-
clared to be a mystical relationship between a personality and an ob-
ject. The object would shine through in the representation,but the in-
dividual would leave his mark upon it. "Das bewundere ich auch jetzt
an Richard Wagner," he said by way of an example, "daB jedes seiner
Werke-Parsifal, der Ring, Tristan--einzelne, losgel6ste Leistungen
sind, und man doch beim zweiten Takt Wagner erkennt."
Mann never felt any kinship with Raabe, although Wassermann
thought he should. He added that the same was true for Jean Paul.
Keller he declared to be a greater "Dichter" than Fontane. For
Storm's lyrics he had only praise, but the latter's novellas, he felt,
were "schon ein bi?chen Unterhaltungsblattliteratur."
My question why the young literati of the turn of the century
went abroad for their inspiration caused Mann to reminisce about
old Keller, "Meyer in seiner Wiirde," and Fontane, the only German
prosaists of significance then. "Heyse und Spielhagen waren unver-
daulich." New concepts and ideas flowed out of Russia and Scan-
dinavia. The language itself naturally had to come from German
sources, and the true revolution of the language, Mann asserted, was
brought about by Nietzsche.
When, after reference to many men about whom Mann had writ-
ten, the conversation turned to essay writing, Mann pointed out that
all his essays had had "einen RiuBerenAnla3." But, of course, he wrote

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226 THE GERMAN QUARTERLY

his occasional pieces because he was in sympathy with the subject.

"Bei Freytag," he added with a smile, "haitteich wohl versagt."
Mann claimed to approach his novels and novellas with the same
feelings as his Bekenntnisschriften. Only speeches he regarded as
something different and even awkward. He sounded truly Fontanesque
when he concluded his statement about his addresses by saying, "Oft
hatte ich das Gefiihl, ich hitte gerade so gut das Gegenteil sagen
kinnen."
Essays were often a welcome interruption from novel writing to
him. Working at the time of our conversation on Doktor Faustus and
having been ill recently, Mann experienced the completion of his opus
as tedious. "Der Reiz des Entwerfens ist fort," he said; "und mit
dem jetzigen weif ich gar nicht, ob es noch richtig ist. Man wird ja
so blind in drei Jahren wie diesen."
Developing some thoughts that came to him when Doktor Faustus
was mentioned, he asserted that a sort of neo-enlightenment was
needed: "Die Deutschen sehen das immer als ein bilchen oberflkichlich
an und glauben, das Ddimonischesei das Tiefe. Aber als Klages und
Lessing mit ihren Biichern herauskamen, das war schon der Anfang
des Faschismus." To my remark that he had sent up warning flares
already in Mario und der Zauberer he nodded: "In Deutschland
fiihlte man es noch nicht so, aber ich sah es ja schon in Italien. Es
hat mich immer intrigiert."
Had he always felt that way? The subject of the Betrachtungen
eines Unpolitischen came up. Mann spoke with firmness, "Ich habe
meine Meinung gedindertaber nicht meine Gesinnung, um mit Goethe
zu sprechen. Kluge Leute haben nie einen Bruch sondern immer
die Kontinuitiit gesehen. Ich habe das Buch nie verleugnet."
By way of a summary, shortly before my departure he said, "Eine
neue Aufklirung ist n*tig. In den letzten fiinfzehn Jahren habe ich
dahin gearbeitet. Das Wohlausgewogene liegt mir am meisten, aber
wenn der Kahn sich zu sehr auf eine Seite neigt, mul man sich auf
die andere setzen. In der Mitte bleiben ist nicht genug. Das haben
viele Leute nicht verstanden und mich darum angefeindet."
University of California, Santa Barbara

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